 Good morning. Yeah, almost lunch break, but only almost So I have the pleasure to Give you some treat before the lunch break and that is dealing with my 10 years of experience with trying to transform mindset I am emphasized trying because this is like a daily struggle And probably some of you are here because you are having the same kind of struggle I'm here to share with you a little bit what I have learned over those 10 years and what are my current best insights from this one And this is wisdom that is changing almost daily with every Day that I'm trying to coach people and organizations. So I'm Henrik Esser. I'm working for a company called Ericsson it's a hundred forty year old telecommunication company is still alive and In that company. I'm currently I had a traditional management career You said you can say and about two years ago I Got a really really interesting job and that is a sort of in-house consultant organizational coach for 15,000 people business unit So I'm used to very very large-scale transformations apart from that my work at Ericsson also has led me to Working with the agile Alliance I'm working as a volunteer at the agile Alliance And there I am the program director for the supporting agile adoption initiative Okay, so what are we going to talk about? Let's have a have a look at this So I will start with General reflections on how can we approach mindset shift? And that already encompasses a little bit what I found on my journey then You see here filling the toolbox. I have a relatively big toolbox in the meantime And I will show you a couple of things from that one then I will Talk about how to make the difference using the toolbox and then something very personal about how to stay sane and trying to change mindset so Let's get going on that one How can we approach mindset shift in an organization the question of all questions and a thing that I've come across relatively early was this Illustration from Ahmed Zidki from IC agile probably a lot of you have seen this one Agile is a mindset described by four values Defined by 12 principles and there is a manifestation through unlimited number of practices and you have Scrum and XP and and Anything custom-made that is following the mindset now a big question is how is this really evolving? Do you start with the mindset shift? And once you have done that you evolve towards the processes And practices or do you rather start with the practices and from the practice using the practices? The mindset will evolve or is it both? What do you think who of you thinks that it's first mindset than practices? Can you okay quite a couple of people who thinks it's first practices and then mindset? Fewer people at least you dare to show up. That's good. Who thinks it's both? Okay, you have come to a similar conclusion as me I mean somehow it's both and you start from both sides and that's sometimes a bit difficult When is the right has the right moment come to talk about mindset and when is the right moment to just say? They are not ready for talking about mindset. Let's just use the practice So, I mean, it's really like this balancing act going from one end of this spectrum to the other alright, so How to change mindset? Yeah, mindset is pretty much about values and culture and behavior and these things and If I say something to you like from tomorrow onwards, your favorite color is blue Yeah, this is a bit like the thing we are trying to do What's going to happen? So some of you maybe like blue already. So you will say great. I'm fully in Then some of you say I totally hate blue What what what are those of you going to how are you going to behave? from tomorrow onwards if I'm your boss You will say yes boss blue is fantastic Yeah, and and and you will be like Yeah, you will fake you like blue. Yeah, and and but in the background You will still love your favorite red or whatever Yeah, and then there are some who are maybe somewhere in between who they don't mind blue But you don't care so much about it. Yeah, so the real thing here is When we are trying to approach mindset We are trying to change attitudes and values and behaviors. It's really this question of Yeah, how can we avoid that on the one side you want to tell people that tomorrow onwards you should like blue, but How can you make them like blue? So can you enforce a culture Can you enforce this can you say you have to you to like blue from tomorrow onwards or is all you get from this one Behavior theater that people are faking that they are behaving in a different way, but actually not the right thing is happening in the background so, yeah Forcing changes in behavior of values is a pretty futile thing You have all probably come across that one just trying to enforce behavior values will just create behavior theater Because the thing really needs to come from inside the people. You can't put it from outside into people You can try to change behavior by forcing it by saying I I want you to behave in a certain way What you then get is a behavior change, but it will not be deeply angered and people will self organize around this one They will fake it so you know as a manager people will start faking the behavior So you better Introduce a sort of behavior police. Yeah, so all of a sudden you have administrative Things around this to scaffold your wanted behavior You are this won't be sustainable and you just create a lot of overhead trying to enforce a certain behavior No, and then when we talk about values, this is even more hard. I mean values. Just forget it You will not be able to enforce values So should we give up of course not we are here. We are coaches. We want to change the world So how do we can we approach this one? So if a big insight is behavior or values change as a response to experience that we have in life when you think about yourself Through your life you make experiences and some of these experience have a big impact on you And you start thinking in a different way and you start behaving in a different way We all have these kind of stories in our lives often they are The most remarkable ones are actually stories of crisis that we have gone through I don't know somebody has passed away or something terrible has happened in our environment or to ourselves We were treated totally unfair or something and now we are starting to change our behavior because we don't want to have this happening again So this change needs usually a trigger and that can be a good thing a positive thing that's happening or a negative thing so When you think about this one about triggers and experiences at the end of the day It's all about interactions. Yeah, so the best triggers you come across when we start asking each other questions Yeah, something happens to us and in a company Context the experience is pretty much formed by the interactions. We have the collaboration with our colleagues We together in a company create each other's experience so These questions arise when we create these interactions that guide us towards the wanted shift in mindset. So Essentially the key thing here really is we need to as coaches create opportunities For constructive dialogues guiding people to think themselves into the mindset So it needs to come from inside people and you need to somehow create an environment where people think themselves Into the new mindset and what you can do is of course facilitate this so by offering Topics people can talk about or creating an environment where they ask each day each other the mindset guiding questions So this whole thing that's at least how I approach it over the years Is requires a good toolbox you need to have a lot of tools that you can give to people Maybe you try this one out and then something happens and you see yeah Maybe this tool was working out here in this context people start having the right dialogues and conversations They're just starting to change the experiences They give to each other in in the way that you want it So and in this toolbox you have things like introducing new visualizations Introduced new language verbal language Written language introduce new processes or practices here the practices and processes are again and then of course is changes in structure and The whole thing needs another thing and that's very important. That's you as a coach Because as a coach you need to see what kind of experiences do people give to each other and What kind of experience do you want to amplify because this is the kind of experience you want to see more of or which ones? Do you try to dampen? So this is essentially what we are doing and I Mean I'm going to look a bit into what can how we can refill this toolbox and these are just some examples There's tons and tons of stuff. I mean Let's let's be hunters and farmers. I once heard a talk from someone and I really like that language I'm a hunter for Filling more things into my toolbox and then I'm a farmer because when I'm then in a situation with an organization With the leadership team or with individuals and I have the conversation as he was going on then I remember Now this tool might be exactly the right thing that helps now Not all tools are helpful in all contexts every tool has its time and space and is usually usage so let's start with language visual and verbal language and I start with something that has happened last year I was Discussing with a leadership team of one of our product development organizations on what are their problems? And they were like not agreeing that they have a problem at all Because they were looking into their process flows and everything looked somehow okay, and so on and how could it could this Be made tangible. So I introduced a different language and that was this one Draw people not boxes. Usually when we talk about our problems, we look into our organizational structures we draw the organization and then the Department X needs is doing this department Y is doing did and and department X and Y They don't collaborate very well on that level. It's very hard to make things tangible So what we did here was I said, okay, you know what we do it differently I went to the whiteboard and I drew the customer on the left hand side And I said this is the customer having a need and then on the right hand side of the whiteboard. I put This is the customer gets are getting something delivered. What's happening in between? I gave them the pen So who does this customer talk to? Okay, this customer talks to that and that person or that that enroll and that person talks to that other person and that Other person manages that kind of backlog and they need to talk to them and they need to talk to those and so on and that's how this whole picture came up and then And this picture to make this picture that took really something like five hours to create it Huge discussion the whole leadership team was no no. It's not like this. It's like that. You see Just creating this visualization created a conversation between them where they were starting to align and discuss on what do we actually see? so it's a visualization that was guiding the conversation they had and Of course from this one you can see. Okay. Now we have a much better understanding of What are the problems and where should we actually start looking at? just as an example More lifting this one now up about Language This is one of my favorite pieces of art at the moment. Maybe This is not a pipe those of you who were in the workshop yesterday know what's coming now So you're not allowed to give an answer now when I ask the question. So this is Rene Magritte. This is not a pipe What this did this artist want to tell us with this picture What is this? I mean he says this is not a pipe and he's drawing a pipe. What the hell crazy artist you could say Okay, if this is not a pipe, what is it? What do you think? What is it? It's a picture of a pipe So what he wants to tell us is how can you know what a pipe is? If you just saw this picture when you'd never had a pipe in your hand You haven't been smoking it or smelling it and you have never had the experience of a pipe Yeah, this is just a picture of a pipe not the pipe itself Okay, no This shows how we work together Or is this a picture of a pipe? Yeah, so somehow you see where this is going, right? Okay, this is a picture of how we would work together It's a hierarchy, but when we try again you could say in this hierarchy There's tons of people and they are talking to each other and yeah, this is actually how it looks like and While the left hand side is a hierarchy the right hand side is a human system people who are interconnected Now the question is which of those two visualizations is the correct one? What would you say? Who would say the hierarchy picture is the correct visualization? Nobody who would say the human system visualization is the right one a few What does the rest think when who have not lifted up their hand both? Okay, you're good because both are pictures of a pipe Yeah, they are both our visualizations and they serve their purpose to address a problem or a conversation in a certain way Both are pictures of a pipe. Let's not forget this. So hierarchy Hierarchical pictures there's nothing wrong with it It's just that they have certain flaws and we are going to talk about that one in a minute Okay, we do another round this time about processes. This shows how we work together. This is a classic process flow Yeah, qualify opportunity define scope execute scope verify scope release the solution Or is this another picture of a pipe? So let's try again. This is maybe one way to visualize it. This is another way to visualize it. What's happening? You know so instead of visualizing process steps You can also visualize what people are involved in the process and what person is talking to what other person and you start Discussing on okay. Are these people talking to each other? What is the interaction quality? How often do they meet? Is this a constructive dialogue? Is this dialogue? Existing at all in our company. So this is the kind of questions that are arising from that visualization So left-hand side is a relatively static process flow and and the right-hand side is a dynamic human system Static on the left-hand side, you know how long it takes to change a process right to change a process that can take I mean we adjusted in the workshop bit of a discussion, but six months to two years easily How how long does it take to change a human system? Well, I can start talking to a different person in the company right now. There is zero time And again here it's two visualizations both are pictures of pictures of a pipe And both are valid Filling the toolbox. Yeah, depending on what you want to discuss. You need to show things in different ways The interesting thing is these visual languages. They create verbal languages So they create tendencies in verbal language and I'm going to give you a couple of Or tendencies in verbal languages. I give you a couple of examples So when you have visualizations like the ones on the left-hand side here on this slide a Hierarchy picture or a process flow what you see there actually is a chain of command So what you do is when people are looking at those pictures, they are discussing chain of command On the right-hand side, what would people discuss instead? They would discuss influence networks. Who do I need to talk to to get the thing going? So it's a completely different language all of a sudden on the left-hand side You can talk about handovers when it's about the process Yeah, who's handing what is the handover between process step a and process that be on the right-hand side? You're more talking about collaboration. How do we work together to get a certain thing done? Left-hand side full control force alignment I mean there's always in the hierarchy a manager who can say this is the way how we are going to do things on The right-hand side. It's more alignment for autonomy. We need to talk to each other So we can each of us can do our part of the job Left-hand side is is trust needed when you are using visualizations like that is trust a discussion What would you say would you say yes who thinks yes this trust is a discussion? somewhat well trust Have been in discussions where we were looking at Hierarchical pictures and had a hierarchical thinking and of course trust was discussed But trust is not like yeah if it's not there You still have a leader who can say this is the way we go on the right-hand side trust is absolutely essential because it's an Influence network and if people don't trust you they will not collaborate with you Yeah, on the left-hand side you have things like decisions and approval on the right-hand side Decisions or conclusions rather emerge by talking to each other And then we are starting to agree slowly on something the left-hand thing grows by adding people and boxes and layers and the right-hand side grows by Also adding people but also especially interaction links That makes the left-hand side relatively slow because adding boxes a reorganization you have union negotiations and I got knows What it takes ages together with HR to do an organizational change You need to recruit new people and so on takes ages on the right-hand side This is very fast and adapting to whatever challenge we have The left-hand side you would probably rather talk about resources on the right-hand side You would maybe rather talk about who's the most talented person who can help us to overcome a certain challenge and The left-hand side therefore is more about conveying knowledge the leader knows best and then the knowledge is rippling down in the Organization the right-hand side is more like how can we share ideas with each other to solve a certain challenge? Just to make you a bit aware that depending on the visualization our language can start changing and we can have different conversations depending on Where we want to go and mindset shift is partly creating different experience by changing the way we talk to each other So these tools are extremely helpful and as a coach you can Draw them out of your toolbox Okay practices and processes Two examples one practice that we have started using is instead of having a Precisely wrong estimate like we are going to deliver this functionality this feature by 10th of October 9 a.m It's a precisely wrong estimate. We started to visualize uncertainty by saying there's a range We are going to deliver this between September and November and then after every sprint we would Re-estimate actually this is owned by the team They can say our current best knowledge shows that we are somewhere in this range now So they have a way to convey their uncertainty and we would visualize this with this dark blue bars in this chart and All of a sudden you see uncertainty So if if I ask someone when can you deliver and they say 10th of October 9 a.m. I say, okay, thank you This is a commitment almost. Yeah, I can rely on this one when they say September to November something like that then I say, oh November is bad because you know, yeah, we have to deliver in October How can we make it happen that we can deliver in October where as our customers are expecting it? so all of a sudden you have a dialogue and In that sense this visualization of ranges that leads to discussions about risks and uncertainties it's a simple overview of The aggregated status across a larger portfolio of stuff And because we update the ranges after every sprint we have a leading indicator that helps a portfolio team for example To discuss how to guide the overall picture and how to talk and discuss with stakeholders And that actually fuels the the mindset shift towards continuous learning. Oh, this is happening now What do we do constructive dialogues? another Practice now you could say scrum is scrum a mindset changing practice when you look through those glasses And you say maybe scrum is a mindset changing practice Actually, it is because there is lots of good things in there people who are exercising or practicing scrum They learn things about stepwise refinement. So you get rid of this massive upfront thinking for example The team is actually interacting in the planning everybody participates in the planning that totally creates a different experience for the team members In the retrospective discussions people are participating and they are they are owning their learning journey together And in the spring to review you meet your stakeholder the product owner and you have a discussion of is this an acceptable product now or not All these are conversations that we have created This is a conversation creating practice that changes the experience day-to-day experience And then you again you need to have a coach that's scaffolding the whole thing and see how is this communication going and it's the Communication going in a constructive way or not. This is what the coach is doing Talking a bit about structure one thing that we have discussed a lot was when we did the agile transformation was teams in epicenter and instead of Drawing hierarchical picture. We were struggling are hierarchies some are then turning the hierarchy around and put the boss at The bottom and the teams on the top, but that is still looking like a hierarchy So what what we tried was we actually did this kind of visualization that we said teams in epicenter Means the teams is in the center because they are the ones who are creating the value for the customer Everybody else is actually support function So we said managers coaches support functions HR. They are all there for the team to succeed So that totally changed the conversation we had and because we also use those kind of visualizations in our communication to the people People were like oh, we're in the epicenter and my manager is now more like a facilitator or a servant leader Yeah, so visualizations like that created different experience different expectations and the thing got rolling We also went from steering groups to calling it more work meetings or make it happen meetings was one formulation We used so we introduced a different language instead of I remember steering meetings I have been in part of in the good old times in the heart in the command and control times Where my job was more or less like listening the whole day to one project manager after the other and then grilling them on Haven't you forgotten this and so on and it was almost feeling like oh Yeah now now he hasn't thought about this one and I jump into this thing and give him action points and so on that was a bit The atmosphere and probably some of you have come across similar atmosphere in your steering meetings and then at some point We said okay. No wait a second. This is not constructive. So let's call them make it happen meetings We sit together and we discuss. Okay. What are the problems? How can I help my project manager now to? overcome the challenges and so on and The same thing with with controlling functions like HR and finance like finance went from yearly rhythm to a monthly rhythm So we could adapt our budgets continuously and so on Yeah Those were just a few examples of toolboxes and probably you have tons and tons of other things and Conferences like this are great places to fill your toolbox. So I Recommend to talk to as many people as you can To fill the toolbox then the question is how do we make the difference? How do we? use the toolbox so Using that toolbox, of course, we need to be aware that every person or group of people is different So it's not like a one-size-fits-all now. I found the one tool that's going to rule them It's never happening right so you can never be sure what creates the needed trigger and sometimes I don't know how you feel about it, but for me sometimes when I meet a group of People and I try to coach this organization It's like I'm testing something then I see oh this didn't resonate and I try to listen to them to see what kind of language Do they talk and then I'm able to maybe connect and find the right tool and then I find the language That resonates with them and then we can make a step. So it's really like talking to people and groups tried visualizations and language And see what resonates What resonates with the people I've recently been in a workshop where I mean Ericsson is a giant Organization and when you try to Foster end-to-end collaboration that was the topic there then we have invited people from all these other Different organizations into one room and it took us one day to just arrive at the same language So one side of the company calls a certain thing like X and the other one calls a thing Y And they're like no, this is X. No, this is Y. No, it's X. No, it's Y And you can end up in a huge dispute and then you need to see how you get those people together So they talk the same language So and when you see something is resonating start amplifying these things An important thing is at the bottom of the slide actually maybe this is the top thing Never make things a fight. It's never we versus them I've seen this first especially in agile communities. There's sometimes this management bashing Oh, if we wouldn't have the managers The life would be so much better and so on and this is not helpful because when we make things a fight It's like we versus them instead of trying to see okay How do we get together? How can we create each other's experience because when we have we versus them The experience is fight, you know, and that's not what we want Starting points. So, okay, this is a quite busy slide And this is like it looks very stereotypical when I did this slide I wasn't sure is this now really the thing, but it's at least an attempt to to find some patterns that I found so I Distinguished teams managers and executives here, and I was thinking okay What's actually experience that you want to create for teams in an agile setup? So teams actually they want to have this feeling of freedom and and owning their responsibility. That's what you want But there is one big impediment to this one because and that is learned helplessness they have been Scaffolded by tons of processes and managers telling them what to do and how to do things and That that is of course something that is not good to you need to overcome this learned helplessness and Create this freedom and responsibility experience for them And that's pretty scary because all of a sudden if you give them the responsibility They never had it it's a challenge for them these new experiences, and that's why they need a team coach somebody who helps them with it But that's not all also on the manager side something needs to happen and for the managers actually it's more Acknowledging the illusion of control. Oh my god. I have all the time used the words ensure secure We need to fix that blah blah blah, but actually I cannot ensure anything It's the team who needs to be empowered so rather the managers need to become system shepherds that help the people to grow The the challenge for them is that they actually are asked all the time for guarantees Can you guarantee to me that this functionality is going to be delivered at that and that point in time? That's their daily challenge, and they have been working all the time. I need to give a guarantee here But here in my team I know every day new things are happening and I need to somehow the kids managers on a friction point in the company Yeah, so this is a difficult friction They need to manage and they need a management coach and usually I have seen team coaches trying to coach managers It's not the same thing. They are ticking differently. They have different kind of challenges It's I've seen this going wrong a number of times So management coach maybe or more into direction of an advisor and then on the executives they are more on the notion of okay, they try to Control things because they are of course ultimately business responsible for something But they need to learn to let go and also become system shepherds, but they're busy biggest problem is airtime How much time can they spend on on things? So for them, it's more like I need to tell those guys you need to deliver that you need to deliver that Here we got this input and so on so getting their airtime They're bent with to deal with things is a real big thing and my experience with these executives is that They are not so Unless they themselves say I want to have a coach you better don't try to start coaching Actually, generally if people haven't been asking you to coach then you should not Act as a coach then you're more a sparring partner. I remember one senior vice president when I met him the first time We had something like five minutes conversation and then all of a sudden we were standing side-by-side at the whiteboard Discussing what are the biggest problems in the organization and so on and that was really more a situation where I was not guiding him It was more like we discussing with each other me being a sparring partner for him And actually I learned a lot from him and he learned a lot from me That is more the kind of atmosphere that you have with these kind of people Maybe a bit stereotypical I know there is of course a huge bandwidth, but just generally connection points that I have found Yeah last but not least saying saying Don't forget about one very important ingredient to the whole thing and that is yourself Yeah, and I don't know how it's for you, but I have been in in situations where I felt like oh my god This is called totally going down the drain I've wasted half a year of time on and they're just not getting it and and so on this can be very frustrating and energy draining situations and The thing is that you need to learn is it's really it's not about you no matter how agile you are they are not it's about them finding their journey right and no matter how much I Long for a certain result or a certain outcome if it's not there. It's not there. It is what it is And that can feel sometimes very frustrating So I don't know how you feel about it but for me sometimes I'm in a in a meeting and I feel they're not getting it and I feel the frustration coming up because I'm running out of ideas how to convey it and I need to be able to deal with this frustration because if I unload my frustration towards them It will just make the thing more difficult. Yeah, so Feeling is feedback acknowledge it Park it. I mean for me. It's like I park these feelings. I'm becoming aware of them I park them and then it's more like let them be embrace them be self-kind forgive yourself for thinking What a bloody idiot is this now? I mean you have sometimes these thoughts and those are really bad thoughts You shouldn't have them forgive yourself for that one and just move on and then after them the session Then you can do a lot of self-care and I've started to do like Build a resilience networks meet with other coaches. I mean Conferences like this are partly a self-help group meeting People talking to each other Oh what challenges have we come across in our companies and we always find we have the same kind of challenges And it's good and it's for me It's a big relief to talk to people like you and then here you have the same struggles as me and we are all like My god, how can we make this happen and then manage your energy? So I've started to treat myself really well So when I had a very stressy workshop or whatever I'm going to have a really really good dinner for example Or when I've been interacting with people for a whole day. Actually, I seek silence and and aloneness For for a while. So sometimes after intensive workshop people are asking Do you want to go with us for dinner and in the meantime in the past? I always felt like yeah, okay I need to be part of the social community and in the meantime I allow myself to say hey I need to take care of my energy. I Really like you, but I really need no time for myself So I'm having my dinner alone I can calm down and let the day pass through my head those things are very very important You need to take care of yourself because the love that you give to the people Can only come from when you love yourself And you do you are able to receive the love from the people and you need to manage that energy for yourself So, okay, we in India mindfulness presence. Yeah, you are the inventors of this stuff This is something that is happening all over the planet more and more people are of course There's a very western culture a culture now around mindfulness and presence, but still it's very important to have this kind of presence Being aware of your feelings emotions and what it does with you and dealing with that constructively so self-care is very important Okay, in summary Again, we need to create opportunities for constructive dialogues Guiding people to think themselves into the new mindset. It's about them. It's not about us and doing that We need to have changes in values and behaviors that cannot be forced. So we need to create Experiences different experiences. So mindset change is achieved by Changing the experience and therefore we need to focus on all these interactions that are happening How are people talking to each other? How are they collaborating and then for that one? You need a toolbox and you need coaches so recruit coaches who are masters of the wanted mindset already Who on a reface you could say on on living that mindset? You need to create your toolbox in Richard enhance it as much as you can guide people by trying out this toolbox and see what resonates with them Amplify the Interactions that are helpful guiding into the the wanted mindset and dampen those that are guiding you away and last but not least Take care of yourself. It's very important All right, so that leads us to Q&A Oh Hello a Question about the hierarchy here I like to talk but when you present the hierarchy, right? So basically you present the traditional hierarchy on the left side you present The the new way hierarchy on the right side But my question from our experience right if the traditional hierarchy still play a role Is there something you want to live with or is something you want to finally convert? Into whatever in the right side Good question. The thing is our company is is a hierarchically organized company the legal structures the line structures This is not going to go away tomorrow So what we are starting to introduce are these? Alternative visualizations and they help us to understand how people who are working in the hierarchy actually collaborate across That's what we achieve by this and that's just the first baby step I don't know where this will lead to but at least now we have a visualization that guides the company and maybe one day We were we are more and more going into The right-hand side of that picture because now we have at least the language to discuss these things So it's just a mindset guiding It's transformative more questions Hi, this is Jayanthail So a lot of time when we go as coaches to different organization or our engagement is more a function of time Right and particularly when we think about mindset from a leadership standpoint It's a more time-taking exercise where some of these things will lead to results in a certain Prime frame, which is pretty long. So are they any specific things or do you have any specific thoughts on some of the things? Which we can hit early on versus something which are more long-term So When you are just starting with an agile transformation, for example, I would say I would always say get get coaches and Start with some agile practices Scaffolded and safeguarded by the coaches. That's for me always the starting point And you need to see what emerges out of this one and manage the situation as you go along an Important thing in all agile transformations is to get the leaders on board and I Unfortunately, I can't give you a recipe how to get the leaders on board I've been blessed and our agile transformation actually was accidentally going right because we it started from the leadership team But in many other organizations it hasn't So that's a challenge and that is actually the factor that can take a lot a lot of time So it can be that an organization that is doing the transformation Which is creating a different experience for people this experience starts Radiating through the organization and then the leaders are seeing okay What's going on there and they are getting maybe inspired if you're lucky that happens, but you have No control over the speed of that process, I think More questions. There's one Use that one. Yeah, so in your experience, you know, especially when you do transformation You have, you know, your old way of working where traditional hierarchy command and control You know that kind of structure is in place and when you go for transformation There is there is a majority of the crowd, you know, who believes in the new ways of working, right? Which is like, you know, agile the right side of what you just explained But you still have some of the senior leaders who still believe in command and control kind of Working and they still execute although they say that, you know, they believe in the new ways, but their execution is that So how do you deal with this kind of? Again, I would not We are it's so easy to say agile doesn't work with hierarchies It's we versus them kind of thinking all of a sudden and the thing is you need to embrace what you have the hierarchy Is there you still want to go agile? You cannot say oh we give up on agile because we are not getting rid of the hierarchy Then you are in this we versus them kind of thinking so, okay How can we embrace this you have the managers managers are usually very system-relevant, you know So the leaders behavior has a huge impact and some of them so in our case for example There was a leader saying the top the boss of the organization But we need to go agile the agile mindset is the thing and then you get a bit of this behavior theater and You will find these pockets where the leaders are saying yeah Exactly we are going totally agile then they implement even even agile practices, but the organization does not do the mindset shift This can only be Overcome in my opinion by first of all you need to have a critical mass of other leaders Who are really getting it and who are going for it if you don't have that critical mass? Probably your agile transformation will go go down the drain. How do you create this critical mass? Partly by reorganizing and re-recruiting That's what we did to quite some extent so anyhow because of the agile transformation teams in epicenter building cross-functional teams We needed to change the organization structure our hierarchy was changing and that means not everybody had the same role as before Which meant we need to open jobs and Opening jobs means you need to hire people new and that means okay when we hire people now We use a different idea of what kind of people we are looking for in the leaders That is a tool that we used It's a very command and control way to find the right people But never forget you need to appreciate from where you come if you are in a command and control a situation You can actually it's perfectly okay to use command and control to do your first steps Thank you Anyone else we have time for one last quick question before we break for lunch There's one Generally what happens that when we start a project or things are going good People tend to follow the practices that we have the agile Transformation is in place, but during crisis or time crunch we see the whole behavior coming back and That sets the team back because at one time you have freed something and they have been burnt So how do you keep the trust going and how to avoid these situations? Personally I but my experience is that these situations are more or less unavoidable So you can just hope that your agile transformation has been sinking enough into the organization So it's resilient to these things In our company. We had fluke duations. Yeah, I mean we go into a crisis New leaders are actually recruited to solve the crisis You need maybe sometimes also different characters of people to solve a certain thing and and then those people are behaving in a different way they change the experience of everybody and then the agile mindset is Taking a dip then you get out of the crisis. That's what I've just experienced you get out of the crisis Agile mindset is going up now again. So Maybe that is actually not too bad Because you need to be fit for purpose and if the company is in a crisis maybe Certain things are not you cannot forever for example discuss to have a discussion on something You need to act fast and that's a thing that I've observed The thing is it can kill the agile transformation It can absolutely kill it, but you are not having a very tight control on these things because yeah new leaders means different behavior and It starts with your CEO even how do you live with that? I mean one thing that we did and that was actually a pretty interesting move Some companies are building something like an agile transformation head office somewhere that is driving the whole thing We had a different approach purely by accident So we had a train-to-trainer coach the coaches kind of initiative in the beginning. So we were flying in Coming coaches into one place. We were Training them to become coaches themselves. They were going to their home organizations They are they have been forming an informal uncontrolled self-organized network of coaches This is not controllable for any manager and they have been a bit like the backbone when the management changed those people were still there you cannot do harm to something that you cannot control and That is the thing that really helped us to survive these periods where it went a bit down The agile those companies that I have seen who had a agile transformation head office I have seen some companies have just said oh now we are in a crisis. We just cut the head office the people were fired Everybody gone our coaches are disputed over the whole company. It's hard to find them You cannot in a one centralized act remove all of them. That's creating resilience Okay, I think we have run out of time now. Let's give a big hand to Hendrik for this session. Thank you