 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today we're talking about eSports law. My guest is attorney AJ Jameel. Welcome AJ. Hey Catherine, it's great to be here. Fantastic. Well, I understand you are, you do 100% eSports law. Yeah, I am. So I work for the law firm ESG law and we are a 100% eSports law firm. We represent top talent from around the world. We represent many of the teams in the LCS, the Overwatch League and many other eSports leagues. And it's definitely been a fantastic experience to be able to work for them and it's, you know, having a great time doing what I love. Fantastic. I actually am a member of the eSports Bar Association and that's how I came to have you on my show. One thing that I think is really interesting is you fairly recently graduated from law school. Is that right? Yeah, I did. I graduated last year in May from Baylor Law School based in Waco, Texas. I'm currently living in Austin, Texas right now and took the bar last year and got licensed in October and then fortunate enough to have a job at ESG and been able to just really rock that experience. What's really kind of exciting about you and something very interesting is that you're one of the few attorneys probably in the United States who have only practiced eSports law. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like we were saying, we're completely exclusively eSports and just a helpful clarification piece is we also represent the teams of eSports. You know, we don't really represent any of the players or talent because of the conflict of interest issues. So, you know, we're fully team side. And you know, what's interesting is, you know, being one of the few people that their only experience is on the eSports side, you know, it's pretty cool. Like a lot of the other eSports lawyers in the space had to start out somewhere else just because eSports wasn't this huge thing, you know, just a few years ago. It's really this emerging industry and one of the things that I tried to recognize going into law school in 2016 is, okay, eSports, it seems to be this thing that is, you know, really gaining a lot of momentum. And where will it be in like 2019, 2020 and beyond? And, you know, I kind of have this idea where, well, I feel like I'll probably need lawyers. I feel like there will be, you know, a desperate need for eSports counsel as the years progress, as the industry develops and as you can see, like, the industry is completely booming. And it's one of the few entertainment industries that can really thrive in a quarantine environment. You know, we've been seeing more eSports, you know, on ESPN, we've been seeing more eSports just online because, you know, the players compete from their home and, you know, people can watch it from their home and you don't need to be in this physical space to actually make it so eSports can continue. Although there is plenty of arenas and stadiums that are dedicated to eSports, it's just one of those things that has been able to really thrive in this COVID environment. That's fantastic. And so I understand that your firm is, you have attorneys in different parts of the country. Where is your attorneys located? Yeah, so we have six attorneys. We've got one located in Los Angeles, two located in the Seattle, Washington area, one in Minnesota, one in New York, and I'm here in Austin, Texas. All right. Get to be the Texas guy. Sure, the Texas guy. And so what issues do you handle in your law practice? Because I understand that you represent the teams and you're more on that side, just like how in other areas we have plaintiffs' attorneys, we have defense attorneys. And so what kind of with teams, what kind of issues would you encounter? Yeah, that's a really good question. So just to take it from the top, I'd say that predominantly a lot of our workflow involves like different kinds of contracts. So I'd say kind of first and foremost, I kind of identify as like a contracts attorney. We do a ton of player contracts where we're negotiating with the player or their agent for different rights and salaries. But we'll also do things like sponsorship and endorsement deals where we're doing contracts with different brands who are looking to make an impact in the in the eSports space. You know, a predominant issue that comes up in the eSports environment is the intellectual property rights. You know, the eSports industry is, you know, primarily governed by where these property rights land. We have there's like likeness for the players. There is the media rights for the for the competitions. The piece that makes eSports unique from traditional sports, as I will refer to it, is that the intellectual property for the eSports that are involved are owned by a publisher. You know, no one owns football or like NFL doesn't own football, but, you know, a company like Riot will own a game like League of Legends or a company like Blizzard will own Overwatch. And that kind of adds the twist in this entire, you know, body of eSports law, where, you know, you have to also work with the publisher to make sure that we're complying with the contracts that they set out. We're complying with their restrictions, because ultimately the publisher does have total control over their intellectual property and they can, you know, dictate a lot of what they want to do there. So I know that was a lot of that. That's kind of one slice of what we deal with is the, you know, the contract side, the eSports competition side and the sponsorships. But, you know, we'll also do things like we, I mean, we've got an immigration practice as well, because a lot of these eSports players, they are from different countries that are looking to work in the United States. And work and operate as a player. So we'll work a lot with the teams to get these players' visas. Typically, you know, one of the predominant ones is we'll do like a P1A visa, which is the same visa that athletes will use whenever they're trying to come and live in the United States and work as a, you know, whatever kind of athlete that they are in for their sports. We basically do that, use that exact same model, but for eSports. Now, for the teams that you are representing, where are the team members located? Are they in predominantly in the U.S. or like what countries would they be in? Yeah. So, I mean, they are all, they're really all over the place. You know, we have seen right now the kind of predominant hub of eSports players has typically been Los Angeles. Now, and this will get into another aspect of what we do at the firm, but like there are very particular employment issues with working in California. It's the, you know, age-old debate of employee versus independent contractor. California has added a layer of complexity to allowing people to work there that, you know, we have to, prompts to figure out. So, you know, we've seen a lot in the Los Angeles, California area, but that's no longer predominantly being the case. We've got, I mean, we'll see now players kind of all scattered throughout the United States and even the world. Like we have seen several cases where, you know, people will be international. And again, because it's the eSports environment where, you know, the services can be performed remotely, streaming can be performed remotely. You know, you can play your competitions anywhere. They've got that flexibility to set, have their setup anywhere. Have you seen much litigation or alternative dispute resolution forums in eSports to date, or is it mostly contracts? Yeah, well, yeah, it is a lot of contracts. Like our firm does not specialize in any litigation like that. But I would say that a lot of the issues, like we are following all the issues in eSports that relate to litigation, because they are so important to like how we do business and how the eSports industry monetizes. And I would say the big issue that has been on the forefront of everyone's minds lately has been the TIFU lawsuit with FaZe Clan. And, you know, one of the issues in that lawsuit was regarding the California Talent Agency Act, where different organizations that are representing certain influencers and certain players are required to have licensure under these talent agency laws. So there is litigation that will follow from that. And, you know, depending on how a lot of that resolves, it will affect the business and it will affect eSports in some way. But, you know, that's the thing with eSports right now. The industry is so new that we don't have answers to a lot of these questions. So TIFU lawsuit is still unresolved. It's still ongoing. We're following those updates very closely to make sure that we're in the know and we're understanding how these things all play out. And one issue with eSports that I'm sure you have to deal with is minority, because minority in terms or minor, minor or not team members that don't have capacity to contract, right? So how does that play in where you have maybe a 16-year-old or 17-year-old that may not have capacity to enter a contract on their own? Yeah, that's a great question as well. You know, it's interesting. A lot of the best players just happen to be minorities. Like, who would have figured that out? You know, it seems like kind of a dream come true for like younger AJ being able to play in video games as a profession. I think, you know, a lot of these people, all of these minors get to really relish and enjoy the dream of being able to play video games. But like, I think you mentioned the issue, like, spot-on that introduces a layer of complexity with minor hiring laws. And what we'll typically see is there are, you know, around three age groups that are often implicated with these minority issues. You've got the 16- to 17-year-olds, 14, 15, and then 13 and below. We've got a little bit of liberty with anyone that is above the age of 13. But it is a super state-by-state analysis. Each state law has different ways that they address minority employment. And, you know, what tends to be quite favorable for minorities is whenever they're located in California, because in California it has a body of the law because of the entertainment industry that allows minors to work. It helps with the employment issues for minors there. But, you know, every now and then it would also come up where, you know, minors can have their disability of minority removed to allow them to contract. Because the general rule is if a minor is trying to enter into a contract, they can typically rescind it at any point that they want to because, you know, public policy dictates that we don't want to be taking advantage of minors. We don't want them to, you know, be preyed upon by big businesses. So it's a challenge. It is a bit of a puzzle being able to navigate those employment laws. But it is certainly in demand. It's certainly needed. And, you know, it ultimately all sends up from, you know, minors being some of the best game players right now. And I'm sure that's what we're going to continue to see as the infrastructure from eSports continues to get better. And the pastime can start being passed down from, you know, generation to generation, which, I mean, you haven't really been able to see before. So one of the things that also plays into the issue of the fact that eSports is an extremely populated by young people is this idea. There are recent changes in betting laws. And so have you dealt with issues regarding betting yet in your practice? Yeah, I mean, it comes up in in like ancillary capacities where, you know, it's not necessarily a situation of, you know, somebody wants to bet, you know, 50 bucks on who's going to win the next League of Legends match. It more so comes up in the context of games of skill versus games of chance. And a team wants to go or a company will want to host a tournament. And the game that they're playing for the tournament has elements of randomness. And then the question becomes if there are elements of randomness in this competition that this company is organizing, like where's the line whenever that becomes cross-server from a game of skill to a game of chance? So, I mean, we've done a few like evaluations on where that kind of line falls. I mean, we're it's still all super new. And the interesting thing, too, is like legislation doesn't account for this stuff. Like it's, you know, the things that there that a lot of companies are doing make sense. It it's not anything that is like predatory or really has anything to do with like really gambling in the sense that we would think of it as. But the law is a classic case of the law hasn't caught up to where technology is. So it's something that, you know, we try to stay vigilant about. But there's only so much of a gray area that we can operate with. You know, it's tough to have a conversation about eSports law because it's so new. And what you're you are always drawing on law in other areas. And so, you know, you are mentioning that it doesn't have that much precedence or or that or there isn't much. You have to look at entertainment law in other areas is pretty normal in eSports law. And one thing that I would mention is that I understand that eSports bar association is fairly new to have you been a member since the beginning. Yeah, so one of the things that I attribute to getting a job at ESG law after law school is, you know, I tried to keep my eye on what was going on with the industry as a law student. And I saw that, you know, a lot of the big attorneys that were practicing in the space had developed the eSports bar association. And one of the really cool things about that organization is it was open to law students. And I was like, naturally, super compelled to join. I'm like, hey, if this is a great opportunity for law students, let me, you know, let me join the organization and start learning from, you know, some of the best and brightest minds in the industry. And the eSports bar association, I think that's where it really differs then from a lot of other organizations. One, because students can get involved. And two, we can really shape where the industry goes because of it. It's like one of the first opportunities for all the legal minds and attorneys that are working and shaping the space to get together and talk about where we want the space to go. And then we have an opportunity to do it and actually execute on that. And I do want to add, it is very much an organization that you get out of it, what you put into it at the very start. I just started, you know, taking on more responsibilities, more tasks, joined the different committees that were offered. Now, like I do a lot of a lot of tasks throughout the eSports bar association just overall. But it very much started with what were the problems that need to be that needed to be addressed with this organization? Like what were the needs? What were the things that they needed to take care of? And then I would just do it. I would just step up and just do it. And then, you know, one thing led to another. It became, AJ, you were the guy that was doing this other thing. We'd like you to take on this additional responsibility, this other thing was kind of snowballed. But the critical piece to that is I think it demonstrated that I could I could get the job done and in like really, you know, where my talents and skills were. Because that's not always an opportunity you'll get with with the bar association or even an opportunity you'll get just as a student. So, you know, I always recommend to law students that if they're really trying to break into the space, the number one thing is to get involved with the industry and the eSports bar association is one of the best ways to do it. But then it's it's not just join the just join the organization and just put it on your resume. It's join the organization and then start doing the things to demonstrate why you're a valuable member and why you're going to really be a game changer in the industry. Now you're motivating me to get involved. I've been a member for about three months and I did have to apply to be a member and I got accepted and so I'm excited to be a member. I just need to get involved. We do have a question from a viewer and it is does your company branch out to help streamers on YouTube and Twitch? You play video games for a living or do you focus mostly on competitive gaming? Yeah, so we do do like contracts with streamers and content creators and influencers, people who will stream on Twitch or YouTube or whatever. The trouble is we typically don't represent the individual streamers or talent just because we represent so many of the teams in the industry that it becomes a conflict of interest. But if there is anybody that needs help and they just need a starting point for representation, it's absolutely something we can help them out and we can help them find the right people to help them out with whatever their needs might be. Terrific. Now, I understand that you have a very unique background in eSports. Why don't you tell us about what you did in eSports before you became an eSports attorney? Yeah, so one of my favorite things before I decided to enter the legal career and go down the path of being a lawyer was I worked at the video game company Blizzard Entertainment and I worked there for seven years. I got a job while I was working at or excuse me, while I was attending undergrad at UT Austin. And I had loved the job so much that after I graduated, I stuck with it and I had worked my way up. I ultimately ended up as a senior game master at Blizzard. And then the choice kind of presented itself to me was, all right, what's the kind of what's the next step in my career? Kind of where do I want to go from here? And, you know, I had always wanted to go to law school. That was always the initial thing that was like when I was a kid, like, okay, go to law school, go to law school. But it was so hard for me to kind of divorce myself from a job that I loved so much and had given me so much of my identity. You know, it was tough to do that. But I had told myself that if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to take this plunge, leave Blizzard, I'm going to continue in the legal path for something that I care about, something that I can be really passionate about. And that's what I did. I stuck with wanting to do eSports. I remember very vividly being in my career development office for my law school and then asking me what I wanted to do, and I was like, eSports law. Like, I know exactly what I want. I know exactly what I think it would take to get there. But I kind of had my goals pretty defined from the start. But one of the things I do think that really helped me make that transition smooth was I had stayed plugged in to all the industry events. I actually met my current supervisor, my direct supervisor right now at BlizzCon in 2015 when I was there as an employee. And he had told me that he was an eSports attorney and that kind of got the gears turning a little bit. I was like, OK, I guess this might be possible. And then it was a matter of just keeping up the network, staying plugged in with everybody and, you know, keeping my contacts like warm contacts, so to speak. It wasn't just, you know, make the connections and then just let out, sit in my phone or, you know, social media for whatever. It's like reaching out, keeping the conversation going, being like, hey, this thing that just happened in industry news is kind of interesting. Like, what do you think about it? And then that made it transition pretty smoothly to the eSports bar association. I'm like, OK, I think this is the next step. And, you know, the rest is the rest is history. Yeah, I can't even I can't even imagine if a person like an attorney or a law student or a college student has a meeting with a counselor. And I want to be an eSports lawyer or I want to go into eSports, you know, a year or two ago, that seems like they would laugh at that or think it was weird or something like that. But now I think it's changed. Don't you think that that the the industry has grown so much that there is especially with COVID even? It seems like there is even more legitimacy in all aspects of eSports. What do you think about that? Yeah, absolutely. You see more and more every day. Like, obviously, there's a ton of money in eSports and that's been shown like time and time again. But the some of the names that are tied to it, some of the brands that are tied to it and then even the infrastructure, it seems like, you know, on a pretty regular basis, there would always be a new stadium or a new arena or something, some kind of new business idea centered around eSports that that would come up. And one thing that I find quite fascinating is, you know, I've looked at the the numbers for the median age of a traditional sports fan across all sorts of different sports. And that age continues to go up year after year after year. The one thing that is staying low and is going down really is is eSports, the content of eSports in, you know, I think part of the reason is, you know, our children are not consuming media the same way that that we have. It's no longer like listening to baseball on the radio. It's, you know, people have their their their iPhones, their tablets, and they're they're on Twitter, they're on YouTube, watching their their favorite, their streamers and their players. And as that generation continues to grow up and continues to be engaged in the space and starting to earn money and starting to contribute in it in meaningful ways, I anticipate that it's going to continue to grow and explode. And it's a matter of looking for the opportunities now, looking for the needs now and then finding the best way that, you know, the business can thrive with that. Fantastic. And before we wrap up, what game do you play or games? Yeah, so there is a there is a soft spot in my heart for Heroes of the Storm. That's one of my favorite games of all time. It's no longer really an eSports or an eSport, but back when it was, me and my friends, we had competed in the DreamHack tournament for Heroes of the Storm and we won second place. So there's always a fond spot in my heart for Heroes of the Storm. Terrific. That's great. And, you know, since I'm a member of the eSports borough, certainly have other attorneys from the eSports Bar Association on my show, because I think discussing legal issues in eSports is, you know, it's important because it definitely is a new area. And so, you know, I really appreciate you being on the show today, AJ. Yeah, absolutely. Had a great time. It was a pleasure talking to you. And I wish you all the best in your eSports law career. And I know it's going to just be terrific. Thank you so much, Catherine. So thank you, everyone, for joining us today. Next week, my guest will be Ricardo Gench. We'll discuss the possibility of eSports becoming an Olympic sport. Thank you very much. See you soon.