 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we are going to discuss the rather dismaying announcement by President Trump, recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. We have with us Achin Baniak, who has been following Palestine-Israel issues for a very long time. Achin, a very unfortunate announcement by President Trump because it does mean virtually the end of the two-state solution, the peace agreement, which in any case for the Palestinian side was really faltering. Nothing was really coming out of it. But this is the formal recognition that the two-state solution is dead and we now have the appearance of a, shall we say, a greater Israel with Bantustans. Yes, in fact you are absolutely right. The formal end of the two-state solution, which was actually getting nowhere, it was already being eroded empirically and practically in so many ways. But this is, if you like, the removal of the fig leaf that was covering the pretence that the United States was an honest broker. Can David accord being the honest brokerage as it were? Absolutely. So in that sense, and if you like, also the elimination of the illusion for those who wanted to hold on to the illusion that the United States is a broker, not entirely a surprise. As you know, in 1995, the US Congress had declared that they should shift to Jerusalem. But every six months, American presidents waived that away. And of course, what he has said, Trump has said, is that, yes, we're going to move, but of course, it'll take some time here. But yes, it's a shocking thing. And I suspect that there are crocodile tears being shed by many of the European governments who are saying, no, no, no, no. But they've not really bothered about the Palestinian cause or support. In the case of India, do not expect this government to respond in the way that it at least should, even if it's for the sake of showing some degree of sympathy. I mean here that the Netanyahu is supposed to come here in January, January 18th. I do not expect this government to cancel that visit, which is at least the very least they should do. And in fact, they have said we have nothing to say, considering that nothing to say in this case is a tacit connivance with the decision of the President of the United States. Absolutely. And as you say that now that the two state solution is over, one has to concentrate on the whole question of how to democratize this greater Israel. Within Israel, whether it has been the labor government or labor coalition or the Likud or whatever, none of them have been serious about a two state solution. But there are variations within Israel about how far to go. So for example, you have an extreme right with talks in terms of even trying to expel the Palestinians, Jordan is Palestine, and to even go to that extent. Others not prepared to go to that extent, but no government in Israel has ever been interested for a long time now in actually having a genuine two state solution, which would mean that you have to withdraw those illegal settlements. And that's something that no government and no party in Israel is interested in. What's worrying to me a little bit is that even though Saudi Arabia and others, the king of Saudi Arabia and others have said that we are shocked and this is very, very bad, there seems to be a good relationship between Jared Kushner and Orthodox Jew, as you know, and the crown prince Salman of Saudi Arabia. And what little news that we are getting from different sources indicates that there was some discussion and the so-called peace proposal that Kushner put forward. I'll come to this issue. There have been some discussions that there is a peace process that's on the table, a peace proposal on the table, which the United States, Israel, and Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia have been working on. And it also appears that Abbas was called, President Abbas was called, and he was asked to agree to the peace proposal, which he turned down. And then there is this rumor going around that he's also like Hariri on the removal list of Saudi Arabia. So it does seem that Kushner has been sort of shuttling between Israel and Saudi Arabia and of course the White House. And therefore this is not entirely as innocent or as surprising as it might, Saudi Arabia might make it seem. Yes. I think what I want to recognize about the Palestinian issue is that when you talk about the governments in West Asia, like the Saudi government, even the Iranian government in the past and in present, they really don't care that much for the Palestinian issue. But they do have to worry, which is why they also have to say that we're opposed, is the fact that the ordinary public in most of these countries, both Arab countries as well as in Persia, have a real sympathy with the Palestinian cause. So from the domestic considerations, they have to at least show that they are concerned about it. But otherwise, I don't see them being that seriously concerned about them. You know, I would still put Iran in a different bracket for a different reason because they have their alliances with Hezbollah. They have actually the Hezbollah is the only force which has stood up to Israel in a military conflict. And Iran's intervention in Syria and Iraq also has meant that there is a change in the way Iranians are entering the West Asian circuit. Clear blocks being at the moment, Saudi Israel and the United States with United Arab Emirates. While there is a Muslim brotherhood block, shall we say, which is somewhere in the middle, Erdogan, for instance, has condemned this agreement, what position he will take. We don't really know. Egypt is to be very much on the side of Israel and Saudi Arabia. Cici has survived on money from Saudi Arabia. So in this block broadly, you really have Iranians, Iraqis as well as Syrians and Hezbollah as one block virtually. Support of Russia. That is being one block. Let me put it this way. Earlier on, Iran was not that sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. However, now, considering the dynamics of what's happening in that part of the world, which you've also laid out, yes, you have this kind of a situation where Saudi Arabia is much more concerned about Iran and is prepared to make a connection with Israel. And Turkey, of course, is still part of NATO. So you have all of these things. And now that Iran is being seen as the big problem, then obviously it makes sense for the Iranians at all. But my general point, of course, is that their particular conceptions of these governments of their national interest is what gets priority over the question of the Palestinian question. But you don't hear, of course, the issue is not so much the national interest, but the interest of kings, emirs, really entrenched, what shall we say, medieval feudal oligarchies, which is what you see in these parts, much closer to Israel than what the nationalist governments, which might again be autocratic and authoritarian, their responses and the responses of what shall we say, the feudal remnants have been very different. Or the feudal monarchies have been very different. To an extent, you're right. I mean, there's a difference between the Barthes. And of course, if you like Iranian nationalism and of course, these emirs. Saudi Arabia has characterized a basically capitalist country which has ruled by 7000 tribal families. Now, one issue that is there is occupation is illegal. It's accepted in international law that Israel is an illegal occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Therefore, this declaration by Trump makes him complicit in essentially war crime, because as you are well aware of that changing the demography of his place under occupation is a war crime under international law. Israel is unique in the world. And there are four ways in which Israel is unique. Number one, it is carrying out the longest running illegal military occupation of modern history and sustained by overt and covert violence. Number two, in proportion to its population, no other country in the world has such a large number of political business. Third, it is the only country in the world today that does not give a map to the United Nations, delineating its borders for obvious reasons. And fourth, it is the only country in the world that is not a state of its citizens. So it is a state of the Jewish people. I mean, there are so many illegalities, but then what's going to, in fact, what's been happening over here, as you know, in 2008, one, of course, you've had a deliberate influx of Israelis into East Jerusalem, some 200,000, and you've had tens and thousands of Palestinians being deprived of their residence permits. What you also have now is that around Jerusalem, there have been systematic inroads that have been made to evict Palestinians from villages so that you will have, if you like, not just the whole of Jerusalem, plus a surrounding part in the wet spang, if you like, protecting it, which is where the question of Bantustan comes in. See, that's a second, that's really the other issue. But before we do that, to just elaborate what you said, in the settlements just abutting Jerusalem, stretch up to Hebron, and there they sought the, the contiguity is what they're trying to establish. This will be quote unquote, the greater Jerusalem in which all the Palestinian population is squeezed out. That's it. Absolutely, absolutely right. In fact, in Hebron, they are moving into a central part of the market, which used to be Palestinian, and so on. This father market, the Beijing market, which has been virtually closed, I've walked through those markets and they have been closed down for the almost 20 years. And it's a, it's really these are the, this is the central market of Hebron. The, coming to the other issue that you talked about, the Bantustan issue, which is really no contiguity. What is being offered, or what was supposedly offered to a bus, was that this will be non-contiguous enclaves of Palestinian population. No control over its own territory, effectively. No control over the airspace. No boundaries, which will be controlled by them, will be underlooked on all sides by so-called Israel, and therefore completely non-viable as an independent territory. And this is essentially a country, what you called earlier, the apartheid solution for Israel. And in 21st century, something that didn't work in the 20th century, being offered to the Palestinian people. You're absolutely right. And of course, they would try to cover up this by, if any Palestinian leadership actually accepted this, they had given them the label that now it's a sovereign Palestine, making a mockery of any notion of serious sovereignty. But obviously it's not going to, it's not going to work. I cannot see any Palestinian leadership, even one which has been so conciliatory, as this leadership has been accepting this. So what now? Well, one of course, let's try, one is that we need to get international support in terms of BDS, which has been growing in the West and which causes a serious problem. That's why you have the United States Congress trying to make even BDS illegal, which is if you like testimony to that, Israel, it's unbelievable what they've been able to get through. And it's a test of our basic decency. The one great important thing is that this struggle is going to carry on because among settler colonies, which is this is one, this is one settler colony, which cannot do what some crazy extremists in Israel might want to do, and that is to physically eliminate genocide and ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing in terms of trying to push them out, but ethnic cleansing in terms of actually massacring them. Any person who has any sense of basic human decency would support the struggle of black people to overthrow a pathide in South Africa and would support the struggle against what Israel is doing. Thank you, Achin. We will discuss these issues. I think West Asia has been a hot, has been a series of hot spots, and what Mr. Trump has done is going to heat it up immediately and much further. This is all the time we have for NewsClick today. Do keep watching NewsClick and also visit our website, our YouTube channel and our Facebook page.