 Today's speakers are, and we're very pleased to welcome them today, Tina Hill, who is the senior manager at Arts Council England, and James Acres, who is Arts Council England's tech champion responsible for data analytics and insight. Let's say a little bit more about Tina. Tina leads something called the Digital Culture Network at Arts Council England. That has a team of 11 tech champions and project coordinators. And she heads up strategic planning, day-to-day management of the network, programming, implementations of systems and reporting, as well as, and I think this is crucial, development of national and regional partnerships, such as Google Arts and Culture. And James specializes within that network in data analytics and is supporting organizations to develop their digital strategy website development and data-driven decision-making. James previously led digital teams at the University of Cumbria and Manchester Metropolitan University, using analytics to identify trends and help with decision-making. And prior to that, he worked at the Lowry in Salford. So the Digital Culture Network is something that I personally have been really pleased to get support from as part of an organization that is funded as an Arts Council funded organization. So I've seen it in operation at the sharp end, really, of giving advice when we really needed it and needed it quite urgently. So that's been a fantastic thing. So it's a great pleasure for me to be able to start by introducing Tina to tell us all a bit more about it. Hi everybody. Thank you for inviting us here, Matt and Guy. And so today's topic is around the digital shift. And what I would like to explore is to share some of the kind of the headline priorities from Arts Council England around our commitment to digital and technology, give you a little bit of an overview of the Digital Culture Network. And some observations on what we understand by the concept of a digital shift, and perhaps touch on some of the impact and opportunities for the sector. And then James will give some brilliant examples of best practice in the sector. So in case you're not familiar with Arts Council England. Arts Council is a funding body to develop and champion arts and culture in England. Arts Council very much invest money in organizations, individual artists and community projects. And that money that Arts Council invests comes from public money from the government, as well as money from the National Lottery. Arts Council has also been administering cultural recovery funding and loans to support the sector through this difficult period. So in terms of Arts Council, it is very committed to investing in digital and technology. And over the last years, some of the kind of the major commitments have been things like a longitudinal digital culture survey, which very much looks at the kind of the overall picture of where the sector is around digital skills and digital and use of technology. And that provides some really interesting insights. We've had partnerships with organizations like Nesta, BBC, and very recently with Canada Arts Council. Another key emphasis has been on supporting a pipeline of talent. And we've done that through programs like New Creatives, which with BBC, which was very much around profiling films, audio and interactive from young people. And CreativeXR has been specifically around use of immersive content. But what's quite interesting, I guess, in terms of we're talking about the digital shift and moving forward, is perhaps useful to just quickly look back at what's been happening in the sector over the last five or so years. And what I've kind of noticed is particularly around the fact that there's been real pockets of excellence, but as a bit of a generalization, I think the sector has been very slow to capitalize on the opportunities offered through digital and new technologies. Often the emphasis has been on marketing and rather than kind of intersecting with artistic content or kind of more fundamental blocks around business planning and so on. Rarely, it's probably fair to say that digital has rarely been represented at leadership level. If you think about roles like chief technology officer, chief data officer, those roles just don't tend to exist in the arts and cultural sector other than some of the bigger institutions. There's perhaps been a little bit of a lack of prioritization around infrastructure and skills. And what's really noticeable is that some of those really basic fundamental digital skills and capability needs really would benefit from being amplified. And that was the purpose why the digital culture network was set up as a response to that need. In terms of looking forward, over the next 10 years Arts Council has just launched a 10 year strategy called Let's Create. And at that heart of that strategy, there's a real emphasis around making the most of new technologies. And Arts Council will invest in organizations that we consider dynamic, agile, innovative, digitally literate and skilled and organizations that make decisions based on data. Now, this is going to require a bit of a shift in the sector. But interestingly, the pandemic has really began to reinforce that need for the shift to happen. And so we, James and I work on the digital culture network. And at Digital Culture Network, we very much support organizations to make that leap into the world of digital. We provide things like one to one support and training and resources. We have a, like Guy mentioned, we have a team of nine tech champions. They have a range of specialisms from very practical topics like websites, e-commerce, content creation, etc. And sometimes the tech champions very much operate as a sounding board for organizations that they work with. Sometimes it's more of a hand holding step by step. I guess where we come from is the acknowledgement that the arts and cultural sector is huge about varied individual organizations, even though there are some sector similarities, individual needs are different. And therefore we try to support that bespoke nature of it. We also very much, so the core emphasis of the Digital Culture Network is around boosting those digital skills and capability of the sector and fostering partnerships with the technology sector. We've been in operation for about 18 months now. Within that 18 months, we've worked with a whopping number of nearly 1000 organizations and for our events, whether online or offline, we've had a total of about over two and a half thousand event attendees. So what I'm trying to say is that we're beginning to get a really strong overview of kind of sector development needs through working with so many lovely organizations. And so moving on to kind of that concept of a digital shift. So for me, the concept of a shift suggests something of a process or a process of change and transformation, whether that happens with individual organizations or sector-wide. And for me, some of those kind of core aspects of that are around one, around business processes, secondly, around business models, thirdly, around opportunities into expansion into new areas, and fourthly, around the organizational culture. So what I mean by business processes, this is very much around the kind of the systems at the back end, the tools and the knowledge to operate smoothly and efficiently as possible. A lot of the digital culture network work goes into this. This might be the how do you use data, how do you, what systems do you use for ticketing, or what CRM packages or email marketing you do, just making it as fluid and smooth and efficient as possible. The second around business models, this is the kind of the fundamental building blocks of how we deliver value. And by value, what I mean is, so on a kind of a wider outside the art sector, you know, for example, Netflix, they truly reinvented video distribution. So that's about how we deliver, what are our organizations about. And thirdly, into expansion into new opportunities. So the shift of having the agility to innovate, this could be anything, but at the moment, you know, there's a lot of work that's gone into, for example, immersive, virtual reality, augmented reality, that sort of tapping into opportunities, or particularly at the moment, we're witnessing a real growth in arts and cultural organizations in making most of what e-commerce opportunities. There's a lot of online shops being set up at the moment. And fourthly, this is the kind of the last one of them, which is around organizational culture. So thinking about that longer term process of in your organizations, how do you begin to redefine mindsets, those processes, and the kind of the making sure that the talent and the capabilities are there for the kind of the shift into more of a digital world of operation. Now, interestingly, I think the pandemic has made the sector take a bit of stock. So I think pre-COVID world, I think the output and the emphasis was a lot on audience engagement, participation, on creating connections, and providing audiences with real experiences. I think the beauty of the arts and cultural sector has always been around transporting audiences into something magical, something out of the ordinary. Now, sadly, when the pandemic started, you know, obviously a lot of organizations from venues to festivals to theaters, galleries, collections, libraries, closed all around the country. But what that meant is that the norm of how we create and how we share content and how we connect with our audiences disappeared overnight. Now, the million dollar question that has been asked during the pandemic is how do you create some of those magical experiences in a digital world? What often our tech champions when they're speaking with organizations talk about is considering your audience in the first place. You know, that sort of approach to audience first in terms of creating those meaningful digital experiences. It's about bringing people together still in a digital world, creating a sense of connectedness in a digital space, but essentially providing content that is meaningful and relevant. At the beginning of the pandemic, the market was just thoroughly flooded with content, but it's kind of, I think, where the real shift is beginning is organizations are beginning to think about what content is meaningful for their audiences and participants. And I think what's an interesting thing to note is that consumers or participants, whatever you want to call them, they want to engage when it suits them. And there's a real growth area in the kind of the digital experience market. And this goes back to my kind of third point around expansion into new opportunities. I think consumers are really interested in personalizing the consumption of their cultural content. They want it to be available in a format they wish and to be available on demand. For example, the National Theatre recently launched a streaming service. The Soho Theatre signed a three-deal series with Amazon Prime Video. The Hay Literature Festival earlier this year created a hay player which has Q&As from world famous writers. And, you know, and personally, I love the fact that my local library finally offered a click and collect service, which is that what I've been waiting for to fit around my lifestyle and the hours that I work. So I guess what I'm saying is that also in considering the audience, the audience experience in a digital world is different. So as organizations, we have less direct control of our audiences. They're not captive. They're not sitting in a concert hall. They're not sitting in a theater where you know they're there. So they're not captive the same way. They also dictate how they consume. Now I might be missing the friendly library assistant who recommends me books, but I am able to access those books now when it suits me. So that's an interesting kind of change in terms of how we're moving from a kind of an offline to online format. The second thing that I wanted to note is, again, that digital culture network, we, when we talk to organizations, when organizations come to us, oh, we want to create this piece of content or we want to do this on social media, we kind of tend to go, OK, well, what are your objectives around it? What is your organization there for? So it kind of links back to that second point that I mentioned earlier around business models, you know, what is it that you're there for? And then thinking, what is the value that it creates? And from those objectives is thinking around how do you want your audience or consumer to feel? How do you want them to experience or respond to your content? And what is the story that you're telling? So, for example, this could be a mix of things. This could be about the audience engaging with your artistic content or your collection. It could be about getting them to connect with your organization. Oh, it could be around generating marketing content with a call to action. But from those objectives, the rest will follow, such as kind of revenue generation, for example, which is, you know, a key on the agenda for a lot of organizations at the moment in these difficult times. So I guess what I'd like to say is flip it around and say technology doesn't matter. It's what it enables you to do. So it might enable you to work more efficiently, you know, automate processes and systems. This is like your ticketing or your CRM systems, for example. It might also enable you to generate income. So for example, a lot of organizations in the arts have begun to use platforms like Shopify to do online retail. Now, if you're thinking about the next thing, for example, social commerce, where you purchase within social platforms is becoming popular. So there's lots of things there. And the question that Matt, I think, posed to me earlier is, is there's a permanent shift? And I guess I would like to say that I hope it's not just to kind of a bit of a lockdown band aid where we do lots of wonderful digital things for a moment in time, and then just kind of move into the old ways of working after that. So I'm hoping that the pandemic has been a bit of a wake up call for a lot of organizations that is begun to shine a bit of a light on those four areas of processes, business models, innovation opportunities and organizational culture. So I am kind of optimistic fingers crossed about that shift towards thinking about how we would like to kind of operate in the future. So that shift towards efficiency and smarter ways of working through use of technology. A sector where there might be a future of mixed business models. So for example, it could be a bit of a mix a hybrid model where we are connecting both the physical and the digital offer. I'm hopeful that the sector will continue to innovate, making the most of the opportunities that digital offers. And certainly an organizational culture in organizations where the leadership is very digitally literate and values digital skills, and have a culture of openness to new ways of working. So that's my kind of wish list for how I would like the sector to look like over the next 12 months, next five years, next 10 years. But I kind of a bit of a roadmap for the future. So what I'd like to do now is invite one of our tech champions for data analytics and the insight James, who will give us some practical examples of some of the best practice that has happening in the sector at the moment, and to give you a bit of a flavor of, you know, where we're working at the moment. Thank you. James over to you. Hello, Tina. Thank you very much for handing over. Let me just share my screen. Brilliant. Yeah. So I am one of the nine tech champions as as Tina says and what I'm going to do for this section is just talk through some of the shifts we've seen through the sector over the last months since lockdown kicked in and show and explain how we've supported some of those organizations. Firstly, I'm going to go at the large end and Tina's already mentioned this organization, but do let us know in the chat if you've actually had interactions with this or you've viewed any of this content. So it'd be interesting to see your thoughts on it. But first off, it's the National Theatre. So they had their full recordings of their performances through their National Theatre live stuff that they've done in the past. And when lockdown kicked in in April, they released every week through YouTube. They did a premiere of one of their shows. So it's a four length plays, and it was a certain date every week that all their users could could join. And what that had on YouTube, the benefit of using platform like that is that there was a live chat facility so they could have engagement with their audience and see have a good chat with them see what's going on, what their thoughts are it were so it really helped that engagement element, even though we're all sitting at home, trying to access this kind of content. And it also enabled them to take donations as well. So obviously, all their plan that they had for that year for this year was completely different and changed for most organizations, but they were still able to take some revenue. Now, the numbers we're talking about for the National Theatre. Over the last 10 years, they've done the National Theatre live in cinemas. So they've streamed performances into cinemas. You may have attended some of those. In those 10 years, they have 10 million people come to the cinemas and watch their performances through there. And these six weeks the six week run they had on YouTube for these these shows, they have 15 million viewers. So 10 million over 10 years, 15 million in six weeks and that just shows the breadth and the way that digital can connect you with a worldwide audience and not have to have to sit in a cinema brilliant you can take it home. The benefit to is then launching the National Theatre home streaming service. So now their audience can pay and access all their content and watch this high quality stuff at home, no matter where they are at what the time that suits them. And the benefit of that for everybody is that they get money, the audience get access to it when they want. And it's, and what this that those six weeks did is shift. The idea about digital shift is part of this and it shifted the audience from one way of accessing the content to a different one. So, although they released it free they were taking donations. They did make some money on that but it was nowhere near what they would normally make. But now, because they've shifted that audience into a different way of accessing their content. They can now, they can now make more money in the long run because they're now used to using the platform and accessing their kind of shows in this way. So that's at the high end of the scale. I'm talking about millions of viewers, lots of donations, high quality production values. And the organizations that we speak to have all levels of the scale so some have really small teams some have huge teams like the National Theatre. I just want to talk about just this emotion. Now they're a physical theater company based in Oxford. And when kicked out, sorry, when lockdown kicked in, they started to do some dance classes online. So they use Zoom and platforms of that. And they're only a very small team. So it's actually their performers that are normally in their shows are actually contacting us and getting in touch. And we were supporting them about how and what platforms to use to do these things online so they could continue to deliver content and connect with their audiences. So what just didn't just this emotion did is that they had a filmed version of their new performance called Bound and they used Facebook Premiere and they used YouTube Premiere to stream the content into these platforms. So we're talking about the National Theatre, they're using the same platforms as what just did a motion doing so a completely different level of organization, but they're still using the same platforms and the same technology and be able to provide the same level of experience for their audiences. So they use the Facebook Live to have the performance and people could watch that live and do all the commenting as they would. And then afterwards, they use Zoom and then stream that into YouTube so people could access the Q&A afterwards and ask questions and do all those things. So we supported them with all the technical setup with that so we had a good chat with them about, you know, what kind of equipment they need, what technical considerations they should have for setting these things up. And it was a really good success for them and it worked really well for their audience. And so it doesn't matter what size organization they are, they can still do stuff online and it's been great to see that over the last few months. Another example is Barnsley Museum and this one was just absolutely brilliant because when we talk about budgets and if you've got none, and this is a great way of accessing the content and diving deeper into a museum's collection. So what Michael did, he's the digital curator there and he was stuck at home. So what he did is get a bingo machine and he would use the bingo machine so he did it at a certain time every day. I think it was or we can't remember and use the bingo machine would pull out a number and then that number would relate to a specific artwork or object that they've got in their collection and they would talk about it. So it's a really good way of unearthing the collection and talking through those different parts. So this example where I was talking about the letters that were sent to a Barnsley librarian. So it's really good way of digging deeper into the archive where you wouldn't normally do that. I'm not sure if any of you have seen this. There's been stuff on the BBC about it recently actually the last couple of days, but the Black Country Living Museum. In August this year they launched on TikTok. So their staff members who are comfortable with this platform and knew the benefits and how it all works. What they did is the Black Country Museum, they trusted their staff and they went, right, you know the platform, we're going to let you go with it. And they've been recording all the different actors and staff that they have within the museum, obviously normally you can't access them because we're all in lockdown through that period. But they've been able to do with these little short videos and you know it's from launching in August they've got over 350,000 followers on there. Their content has been liked five million times and it's been seen millions and millions and millions of times. And it just shows that the content you can create on this, on a platform such as TikTok, which if you don't have understanding of, but some of your staff members probably do. There are great things that you can do with down here because it allows the Black Country Living Museum to engage with a really young audience across the whole world, even in lockdown. And even if we weren't in lockdown, this would have been a brilliant thing for them to do, but now they've been able to access them. And now they're, since August, as I said, they're now in the top 100 UK accounts on TikTok. So it's amazing how fast that that's gone because they've got great content that they're creating as a team. Next is an organisation in the West Midlands, which is a theatre production company, and they're called China Plate. And through lockdown, we've been in touch with a lot of organisations have been in touch with us to talk through the more strategic things that they want to do. And there's things that have been on the back burner for a long time. So they're using the downtime to focus on long term projects such as website redevelopment. And in this example, it was Sarah Isaacs, who's the digital lead there, got in touch with Roberta, who's our website tech champion. And Roberta helped her by going through a step by step guide through for redesigning website and web content accessibility guidelines. So helping them through that whole process and also how to write a design brief. So when organizations are like, how do I, how do I write a brief? You know, it's quite an in depth thing. You know, what do I want out of my website? Roberta's help able to help organisations through that process. So then when Sarah was going through all this and creating and putting all this together and the website is fantastic now. She said she felt confident when she was approaching agencies because she had clear objectives and expectations because she had that discussion with Roberta and the rest of the team to have that kind of support. So, you know, we, we work as a digital culture network as an unbiased advice. So you can bounce ideas off from questions and best practice and just guide people through that. And the agency, one of the agencies that received the brief said, I've read through the documents provided. I don't have any queries at all because wow, your brief with us was a breath of fresh air. And I think that's really nice as a, as feedback for us that it's actually making that difference. This next one, I just want to talk briefly about the Lancaster, Lancaster culture co-op because everything that we're talking about has digital attached to it. So we're talking about digital culture network, the digital shift. But there's a whole part of organizational organizations, audience that are not reached by digital. So this digital exclusion is a big part that needs to be considered as well when you're doing any of this work. So what the Lancaster culture co-op did was create a creative challenge pack and, and this was, you know, it was available online so you could still access it if you had online connection. But they actually printed out physical copies of this and they sent it to people who didn't have access in that way. So still accessing the great things and activities that they could do. But for that audience that might not have access to the latest smartphones, a Wi-Fi, internet connection, broadband, those things, because not everybody has them. And especially in rural areas, sometimes the Wi-Fi is just really bad. And, you know, they need to still access things and not be excluded through this whole, this whole period. And I saw it was mentioned in the chat earlier on about accessibility. And for the digital content that we put out and the stuff we advise on, we have a lot of guidance and resources around that element of it. So how to use closed captions when you're providing things online and doing British sign language and factoring that into everything you're doing. So it is easy for everybody to access because I watch videos with the sound off and, you know, captions are great for me, you know, and it just opens it up to more people and more audiences. The last thing I wanted to show was the stuff that Nick has been doing. So Nick is our CRM box office and ticketing tech champion. And this is just an example of the kind of resources that we create as a digital culture network. And this one was all about ticketing for museums and galleries. And if they needed to implement a timed entry booking operation, which through this whole process that this period they've had to. It's a great resource that just went through all those steps that you might consider when you're approaching those. Approaching this thing and how you could navigate all of this because what was one of the benefits of the digital culture network is that we hear a lot of the common things and that people are trying to overcome. And then collate a lot of it together because it's the common themes, the common issues and the common barriers that people are trying to get past. And we can create resources or find a partner or run a webinar on it and things like that. So we're very keen to do very many more of these and you'll see these if you go to our website, there's loads of resources on there. There's webinar recordings of all the things that we've done. And you can get in touch with us as well on there, which is great. So that's it for me. I think we're going to go to Guy now and he's going to ask us some questions from the chat. Thank you very much, James, and thank you Tina for really fascinating contributions. As time is short, I'm going to crack straight in to some difficult questions for you. So the first one I wanted to ask about was really some people have said in the chat as well. They're really pleased that we acknowledge the issue of digital poverty. And I just wondered whether you could say perhaps a little bit more about that. Maybe Tina, if you want to say a little bit more about digital poverty and what is often called the digital divide as well. And how the network is perhaps thinking about ways to tackle that. Yeah. I mean, it is something that certainly at the forefront of our minds. And we had earlier, a couple of months ago, we hosted a sort of connected to culture conversation around this topic because it is really important. And I think that the digital exclusion happens in a range of ways. I think there's, you know, there's, there's issues around access to technology. There's issues around access to broadband. You know, I live in a rural environment and the broadband is a bit, you know, it's not always the best around here. And yeah, so I think there's lots of issues around there. But I think it's certainly as a sector, we need to, we need to start addressing it. And, you know, examples like James gave around the work that Culture Co-op is doing with their projects. You know, that's a great example of maybe that's where we need to begin to think about merging the digital offer with the live offer. So that's, that's an interesting one. And I think it's, it comes to knowing your audiences. So if you know that is a particularly challenge for your audiences, then that needs to be at the forefront of project planning. I think we could go off into, into thinking about hybrid models because of other questions that perhaps touch on that. I did want to kind of follow up by perhaps asking something specifically from the slide that was around engagement with libraries, which obviously in the Arts Council England context is going to be public library network. And I noticed there was quite a relative lack of engagement with the network from the public library sector, which I'm sure is another thing that's in the forefront of your minds a lot. Do you think that's due to just the fragility of public libraries in terms of their business model and the way they've ended up? Is it something that's within the kind of approach to digital? I just wonder, because we obviously in a, in what's fundamentally a library network here, is there something fundamentally about libraries that makes it more difficult perhaps to be agile around this digital engagement? I just wonder if we could open that one up there. I don't know. Yeah, James might want to say some more about this, but I think just to notice that with libraries that we work, some of them are local authority libraries, some of them are independent kind of community libraries. And certainly with the local authority led ones. A lot of the kind of the support offered that we give around to use of social media, use of kind of developing websites is that they've often been bound within what the local authority allows them to do. But there have been lots of really interesting libraries who have started to kind of find their way around that and find solutions that work for them. James, you did recently quite a lot of work with the libraries. Yeah, so we've started to do some webinars specifically for libraries because their needs are different to some arts and culture organizations. And it was about just upscaling about what technology they have and you mentioned local authorities there. You're sometimes tied into using certain platforms. So it's how you can make the best of what you've got that you know you have to use essentially is like we can't install zoom so we have to use something else. We have to do the different options and opening up what they potentially can do. But the other side of it is that the discussions that we've had and it's something we're trying to address is that libraries have a perception that they're not arts and culture. And that shift of like we are arts and culture and we are here to support you. I think that's a piece of work that we need to go into 2021 and actually have more of a focus on to change that mindset. Yeah, thank you. So I do want to go into the hybrid question because one of the first questions we had actually on the Q&A today and thank you to everyone for sending in the questions. Is this which is, is there a danger that new digital offerings will cannibalize existing live activities and so be a threat to live activities? And I'm going to say, well VHS kind of did put a big dent into cinema audiences for a while, but then it bounced back. So one answer might be we don't quite know yet. I think that's an interesting point. I personally don't think that the digital offer has to kind of be at the cost of the physical offer. I just don't think, I think they can work in synergy. And I think, linked to what you said earlier about NT live, for example, which happened, which started probably 10 years ago now. At the time, Nesta did a big study called like to digital. I think this was in 2010, which looked at the kind of the transmission of live content to cinema screens. And the outcome of that research was very much around. Actually, it doesn't stop people going to the live experience. And in fact, the other way around, that often people who couldn't go to London to the National Theatre were able to access that content from their local cinema in, I don't know, Scumtop. I'm not sure where that came in my head with Scumtop especially, but you know, it allows you to widen your audiences to different, yeah, to other audience groups. No, absolutely. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. I think, I think another question that we've had quite a lot of talk about actually is, is about the, also about hybridity. And that is the question is this, there's an inherent resource issue looming. We're moving out of lockdown, we built up these large digital audiences. There's an expectation that those digital audiences will maintain those and will continue to serve those. But we're also having to all open up our physical services again. How do we plan for that? How do we, how do we manage to make that, have we got ideas about how we can make that work? Partly without working with ourselves. I think it's the bone trying to serve two masters as it were. James, do you want to have a go at that one? Yeah. With the organizations that we've spoken to in this period, they found it really beneficial to focus on one or two channels. When it comes to digital, there's the expectation to just go on all channels, be on Twitter, be on Facebook, be on LinkedIn and Instagram, all the different channels. But by focusing on certain ones that your users are on can take that a lot of that pressure away. So use the resource you've got to do that and don't overstretch yourself. I know it's easy for me to say that focusing the effort and be realistic with your superiors or higher ups if that's a situation is like we've got a great audience here that we still want to continue with. And that is going to feed into the physical. Anything you do online is going to feed into the physical. If I could also add something to that guy. I would say what we found that works really well is when you begin to integrate digital into everyone's job description, so that it doesn't become right. For the person who does digital there, when the rest of us deal with the proper kind of that that the in person offer. So when it becomes part of everyone's remit when it becomes, it becomes to kind of be considered at the business planning stages, when it becomes to kind of get much more ingrained into how organizations begin work, rather than just the nice extra add on at the end. I think that makes a big difference. And, you know, even say for example I know it's kind of weird we're a different organization but from a kind of like a digital culture network point of view. We have a marketing person who runs our social media on Twitter, you know, it we all contribute to it. Is that sort of an approach to it that makes a difference I think. That feeds very nicely into into the, the next question which is really about staff roles. But before I do that I just wanted to mention that. Thank you Matt for alerting me to this that the digital shift forum is planning a dedicated cinema seminar for on digital exclusion and how we work as a community to combat that we're looking at May of 2021 for that so thank you Matt for letting me know about this. So just back to the kind of staff roles and digital people staff roles. Okay, so here's the question that gets the heart of this I think. I mean utilizing staff knowledge and skills in platforms such as tiktok, but I wonder whether this form of engagement was part of the staff's roles, if not whether their roles were adjusted. Whether this was something additional they were expected to find time to do on top of their existing responsibilities in the midst of a pandemic, and the time and energy constraints that that brings I think that that's a really passionate question about about that. And actually we can relate to it because I think, you know, I mean, as part of an organization and a museum has been very celebrated for its kind of success on social media ourselves. I know that that wasn't, you know, we didn't have a social media manager with a person with that job title, when we started getting to that point and everyone thought we did but actually, we didn't and it was just someone doing on top of their on top of their role. So clearly echoes with a lot of people. James, is that something you want to answer first or I don't have the answer. I'm afraid I'm not sure how they delivered it. I'm not sure the internal workings of that specific example. And in other ones that we've seen, such as the Museum of was it cultural role of all life. And when they did the, what was it the big sheep. Yeah, that's us. Oh, sorry. Yes, there was a big structure wasn't there in place that you took full advantage of that. And that was that was an example where it wasn't a lot of people thought it was in someone's role and actually it was just so it was kind of we had to adjust to that. I mean, I would say that the yeah, I mean, if you want to come in on Tina but I mean I do think that's possibly often the way is that something happens with digital and then you have to adjust a bit later on to kind of work out how that fits into business as usual. Yeah, I think so. There's a lot of talk about digital leadership in the sector at the moment. And I guess I would say, often when people hear that those two words they think, oh, it has to be the chief executive who's kind of magically digitally skilled and drives these. Actually, it's about finding those digital leaders within your organization. And coming back to the kind of the earlier point that I said about organizational culture is having that trust in people that they will, you know, if they're passionate about an aspect of digital, you know, they will do their best for you for the organization to make it into something really interesting and innovative. So I think there's an aspect of organizational culture in developing that trust and allowing people to explore the things that they're good at and where they they don't feel it's an additional extra that they have to do is something that they love doing and want to explore further. I realize we've only got a few minutes left. I'm going to do one more question. And I'm going to, I'm going to sort of ask what to both of you really what role you think universities can can play in supporting ace to encourage collaboration around this because because we're in a backdrop of austerity and whatever is coming post pandemic that may be worse than than previous austerity. We need to work together as a sector to tackle those challenges. So any thoughts on that and how universities in particular can play a role in that. I'll go for this one for a start. And I would say, you know, with your your local areas and like the stuff that you have as university is going to be so important going forward and how that ties into, you know, the local organizations and your local cultural offer and telling those stories because that's what people are interested in. You know, you've got a historic historical archives and all this this culture that's just sitting there and it's you need to tell those stories people are interested in them. And that's what's working for the Black Country Museum. They're just telling stories, you know, historical stuff and people, people connect with people, don't they? And if you can work closely with your organizations in the local area to tell those stories wider for the whole area, I think it will bring you all up at the same time. And that's really that's really interesting. Tina, did you have anything to add on that? I very much echo what Jane says about telling stories of the wonderful collections and things that a lot of universities have available. And I guess the other aspect is, is, is the brilliant work that happens within the kind of academic research aspect of, you know, often kind of arts, organized and cultural organizations are very hands on practical mindset and just don't have the capacity or the knowledge and the skills, like yourself to kind of think about that more research aspect of is how we can marry the practical with the research to really bring that insight into to everything that we do as a sector. Okay, so we've got universities as channels, libraries in particular as channels for research impact, and also as part of a kind of, I suppose we might call the civic university kind of function, but I suppose the audience of a university is a global one as well. And I suppose we have that ability to kind of cut across communities that are, and particularly now I suspect many of us are finding our students are spread across the world, actually physically spread across the world and not even on our campuses at all.