 Heritage preservation is moderating the connection to collections online community and cooperation with the American Association for State and Local History and with funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services. The site is designed and produced by Learning Times. The goal of the online community is to help smaller museums, libraries, archives, and historical societies quickly locate reliable preservation resources and network with their colleagues. In developing the community, we have drawn on many resources that were developed for the C2C initiative, including the bookshelf and the Raising the Bar workshops and webinars. Links to these recordings are filed under the Topics menu on the site. We will also file a recording of today's webinar there. About twice a month online community features a particularly helpful preservation resource and hosts a webinar related to it. The resources we posted for today's webinar can be accessed by clicking this photo on our web page at ConnectingToCollections.org. Today, I am so pleased to welcome Tara Kennedy, who you can see there. Tara is a preservation field services librarian with Yale University Library. And she's kindly agreed to help us explore odors and collections today. Thank you so much for joining us, Tara. Would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself? Sure, no problem. Thanks, Jenny. As Jenny mentioned, I worked at Yale University Library in the preservation department. I've been here almost eight years. I am a graduate of Northwestern University. I have an undergrad in art history. And I have a graduate degree, a library science degree, and a certificate in advanced study from the University of Texas at Austin in library and archives conservation. And I also, in my free time, also work as a preservation consultant for other institutions around the country. So I've been working in the field for a little over a decade and loving every minute of it. So here I am. Thank you. So before we dive into our presentation, we just have a few poll questions that will help us get a better sense of our audience. We often give out a door prize to people who respond to these questions. But today, since there are multiple choice, anyone who signs into the event has the opportunity to win one of our door prizes. So we'll choose two names at random from the attendees list. But please don't let that stop you from answering the poll questions. So let me pull this over. Our first poll question is, how frequently do you utilize your sense of smell to assess the condition of objects? Often you notice every time you assess an object, occasionally when it seems appropriate, not often or never. So I'll give you a few minutes to fill that out. And let me know if you can't see those results. You all should be able to see the results. So we're getting a lot of occasionally. OK, let me go ahead and pull over the second one. Now the next question is, I can get it open, is how interested are you in removing odors from your collection? And your choices are very interested, only interested if it affects the preservation of your object or not interested at all. So it looks like most people are answering only interested if it affects the preservation. We have two more. Our third question is, what are the most common odors you experience in your collection? There's a couple of answers here. And for the other option, if you're selecting other, feel free to enter it into the chat box. We're all over the map here. This is good. Looks like mildew is probably the most prevalent. Our next and final question is, what methods or materials have you used in the past to remove odors from your collections? And choose all that apply. And again, with the other option, feel free to enter it into the question and answer section. So it looks like the most common is increasing air circulation. OK, great. Thank you guys so much for answering those. Let me pull this over and bring over Tara's presentation. Now, during the presentation, please feel free to enter in any questions that you have in that Q&A box. If we aren't able to get to it right away, we will try by the end of this to get to all of your questions. All right, Tara, I'll pass things over to you. OK, great. Thanks, Jenny. OK, so Jenny was kind enough to come up with a fun title for me for this presentation. Why do old books smell in other adventures with odors in collections? Just one thing I want to tell you guys before we start. I do have a PDF, a handout, that will have a lot of the prevalent information that I will be talking about in my presentation. So if you don't feel like you missed something, something like that, don't worry about it. It will probably be covered in that handout. And of course, you can always ask questions to make sure that you do get your answers taken care of. So off we go. Oh, here. So we're going to start with a little bit of chemistry. I promise it won't hurt. Looks like I need to talk louder. OK, sorry about that. So some of the characteristics of odors, the reason why we smell things is there's a couple of chemical reasons for that. One, what is being in the air is actually of a small molecular weight. What that means is, basically, it's a component that doesn't smell, that doesn't weigh a whole lot. So it's usually less than 300 grams per mole, which is a way of measuring molecular weight. That's usually considered small. Don't worry, there'll be examples, so this makes a little more sense. What you're smelling also will have a low boiling point, which means that the boiling point is basically how much you have to heat something, the substance, before it actually goes into a vapor or gas. It's also called volatile, and things that evaporate easily at room temperature tend to be more volatile. And these things also tend to be slightly water-soluble, meaning that they will actually blend well with water. And that's so our mucus membranes inside our noses can basically pick it up, and it can penetrate that area. And there also has to be enough of the molecules in the air so that our nose can actually pick up on it. So the higher concentration of the molecules, the better your chances are of smelling it. So I'll give you an example. Something, since you probably have all had salad sometime in your life, I'm going to use vinegar and olive oil. So vinegar, you're probably familiar with the scent of vinegar. It's a very strong smell. You open the bottle, and you can smell it. Olive oil, there's definitely an odor to it, but it's not as immediate as vinegar is. So if you notice, the molecular weight of vinegar is 60 grams per mole versus the molecular weight of olive oil is 282. Vinegar is a heck of a lot smaller than olive oil, or oleic acid if you want to be all chemistry-y. The boiling point of vinegar is 118 degrees Celsius or 244 degrees Fahrenheit versus olive oil, which is 360 degrees Celsius or 760 degrees Fahrenheit. That means this is a much lower boiling point, so it's much more easily evaporative, being vinegar is. And vinegar is water soluble, and oil isn't. So this at least gives you an example of what I'm talking about when I actually mentioned these things. So these things, all chemicals, they have different categories, and different categories of chemicals will emit different odors. For example, alcohols tend to smell sort of minty or fresh. Menthol is an excellent example of that. That would be like your Vic's Vapo rub. Its main active ingredient is menthol. Those things you pop in your mouth, when your nose is all clogged, that's full of menthol. And they also often come from plant sources, so peppermint, eucalyptus, that sort of thing. Those all are going to be in that category of odor. Acids tend to smell pungent or strong, so that's like cheese, the fermentation sort of thing. That's what you're smelling, and that's what strong smell of cheese is the fermentation process. Vinegar, as we already mentioned, and sulfuric acids, anything with sulfur in it. It's going to have that rotten egg smell. So that's probably something you smelled before. And phenols are woody or smoky or tarry, so smoke from a fire, or cigar, cigarette, or pipe smoke. All of those things are going to have a phenol smell. These are also known as functional groups, for any of you chemistry nerds out there. So mold or mildew, which seems to be the most popular odor that you all seem to have encountered in your collections, gives off a mixture of smells. So we have, let me just turn my page here. So it's volatile compounds, a combination of functional groups. They're aldehydes, alcohols, and ketones. So an example of an aldehyde smell, or an aldehyde you might be familiar with, is from aldehyde. And that's a volatile component of wood. So when you're walking down the home depot lumber section, that probably is something you're smelling, is one of the components you're smelling is from aldehyde. You also might be smelling acetic acid or vinegar. That's another thing that would off gases as well. And heavier aldehyde compositions are often used to make perfumes. So they often can smell good or smell bad. But the ones that are most volatile are the ones that smell bad, unfortunately. An example of a ketone, acetone, or nail polish remover that you all might be familiar with. Also something called muscone, which is the musk scent that's used in a lot of colognes. So mold smells like woody, minty, musky, nail polish remover. Sure, why not? Oh, and by the way, this is why I mentioned mold and mildew. The words are used interchangeably. It's the same thing. So if someone says something smells like mold or something smells like mildew, it's pretty much the same thing. So just so you know. And another thing to note, what you're smelling, are often called microbial, volatile, organic compounds. Or otherwise known as MVOCs. You may have heard the term VOCs before. They often talk about it with paints and things like that. And all that means is the stuff you're smelling. That means that's volatile and organic compounds. So microbial, volatile, organic compounds, MVOCs, is what you're smelling when you smell that mold or mildew smell. And it's actually one of the things that people think are the reasons for sick building syndrome. You may have heard of that. Sick building syndrome is a combination of ailments that people sometimes have. It's thought to be caused by a person's office building or home. So besides mold, other causes for sick building syndrome can be offgassing from building materials. I mentioned the wood, the Home Depot isle, from aldehyde and acetic acid in high enough concentrations. That can make some people ill. And poorly functioning air handlers, sometimes there's components of the air handling systems that can cause problems for people. Depending on how the filtration is done or there's some older filtration systems that can cause problems for people. So we have to answer the question in the title of the presentation, do we not? Why do old books smell? So they have done some destructive chemical analysis of a wide range of papers. And they have found 15 markers or VOCs or volatile organic compounds that actually are characteristic of paper. And also can tell scientists how degraded a paper actually is. Just by the amount of volatile compound the paper is emitting. It's pretty cool. And they even have a name for it. Degrade a mix? Degrade a mix? I'm not very good at pronouncing words sometimes, so bear with me. But that word there at the second bullet point right there, that is actually a new realm of studies that they're talking about now. And actually, the United Kingdom has a three-year project going on called Heritage Smells. And it's basically a key aim is to develop a handheld portable device that you can take around your collections and take samples of air, which will separate out the components that they're emitting. And they'll actually tell you how they're doing, how deteriorated are these things. It also will give you some information about how harmful these emissions are to human health. So it's actually a really cool project. And there's a ton of partners, University College London, the British Library, British Museum, National Museum of Scotland, National Archives of Scotland, English Heritage, and the chemical detection company called Owlstone. They're all involved in the project. And it's a grant-funded project by the Science and Heritage Program of the Arts, the Museum Research by the Science and Heritage Program of the Arts and Humanities Research Council and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council in Great Britain. So it's pretty cool. I was trying to look up the website the other day. I was having difficulties finding it. But if you do a Google search for Heritage Smells at UK, you'll come up with some of the places that actually talk about it and give a little bit more information. And there's also the video that you all got in the beginning that you could take a look at as well that talks about at least the initial volatile compounds that the paper is giving off. OK, so common odors you find in collections. And Jenny pointed some of these out in her beginning questionnaire. Often, you're going to find mold or mildew, cigarette smoke from collections you get from someone who's a chain smoker, wood smoke. Often books are hanging around in the library. There has a nice fireplace going. That happens sometimes. Diesel fuel or oil, I guess that has been a problem in some cases if you happen to be storing things in a garage for a long period of time, for example. And vinegar is another smell. Moth balls is another big one. And plastics. And I'll explain the plastic one in a little bit here. One thing to know about moth balls, it actually has volatile ingredients that cause the moth balls actually to be blind. A supplement, I should say, which means that they turn from a solid to a vapor at room temperature. So that's why they give off a humongous odor. And some not so common odors in collections, urine, and tepula pew over there, skunk, usually due to collections unfortunate run-in with the animal kingdom in most cases. So in my slide before, I mentioned vinegar and moth balls as two of the common odors that you'll find in collections. And actually, these two odors are actually warning signs about deterioration going on in your collections. So these are things that you really should be paying attention to, especially if you have large film collections, film that can be motion picture film, that can be photographic film, like such as cut negatives or anything like that. Inferior plastics, that usually doesn't always necessarily have to do with collections themselves, but oftentimes with the housings or the way the item has been packaged, often that is what it's associated with. So I'll talk a little bit about the vinegar smell that you might encounter. So what that is that you're smelling is cellulose acetate deterioration, otherwise known as vinegar syndrome. So cellulose acetate, for those who don't know what that is, it's an early plastic. And it was used mostly in motion picture films. It's also been used in early microfilms. It was also used in photo negatives. Most of the time, those are the three most common types of collection items you'll see made of that material. You'll also find early reel-to-reel audio tape is also made of this. It's the carrier that's actually holding onto the magnetic media that's actually played, that is the recording medium that's on top of the carrier. And also one other thing that you'll find with cellulose acetate are objects that were laminated in the 1950s and 60s. People thought that it was a good way to preserve documents by laminating between these pieces of plastic. But the plastic deteriorates over time. And with it, the document that's been laminated also becomes in danger. So if you smell a great deal of vinegar in your collections, there is definitely an active problem going on. So it's something that needs to definitely be addressed. So what's happening here is the vinegar you're smelling is acetic acid. And that is the cellulose acetate breaking down and basically emitting acetic acid in vapor form. So what can you do about it? Well, one thing that you can do to find out how badly along your film collections have deteriorated or your audio collections, you can get these wonderful strips called AD strips. And they're made by the Image Permanence Institute. They're in Rochester, New York. They're part of the Rochester Institute of Technology. And what these strips do is you put them in the can or the housing with the film. And it will tell you over time, in basically about 24 hours at room temperature, how badly your collections are deteriorated. So if you see that color, that means it's in a really bad way. So you need to reformat that as soon as possible. So this film is particularly deteriorated because it was kept in room temperature conditions. And the fact that there's all that film together, all of it in that one case like that, basically the deterioration is feeding off one another. So it's making the problem worse. So it's important to store things separately, especially if you have multiple films like this, even if it's small reels. So the other odor that can come from film collections is moth balls, actually. In early films, cellulose nitrate and cellulose diacetate, which was an early acetate type of film, they used something called camphor, which was used, at least in this context, used as a plasticizer. A plasticizer is something that makes a plastic more flexible. And you definitely need that in a film, especially if you're putting something through a machine that's going to be projecting on a screen, that sort of thing. So the moth ball smell is actually the camphor in that. And that's also a sign that your films are deteriorating since it's off-gassing that plasticizer. Now, moth balls in another context, whether that be papers or textiles, that sort of thing, that just probably means they've been hanging out someplace where there were a bunch of moth balls. So in terms of it being a warning sign, the smell of moth balls, it's only in the context of film. I just want to make sure that that's clear. And inferior plastics, the big old inferior plastic that you need to look out for is Polly vinyl chloride, or PVC, as it's commonly known. So that's usually where you're going to find that. There's mostly plastic sleeves, especially the ones that go into binders, three-ring binders, that you can find at sort of office goods types of stores. If you can't tell what the plastic is made of, if it doesn't say on the package, a lot of times it's PVC. And also, holders for 35-millimeter slides, oftentimes those can be made of Polly vinyl chloride. So those are things to look out for. But the smell is very distinctive. If you've ever bought a brand new plastic shower curtain or a shower curtain liner and opened a bag, that smell, that's PVC. And it just smells like a whole bunch of chemicals. So what I've got to say, health and safety comes first. So if you're doing this kind of work and the smell is really strong, protect yourself. Respiratory and protection is really important. And you have to make sure you're protecting yourself against the right kind of actual problem that you're encountering. When I was looking at those films back a couple of slides ago, the vinegar odor and the mothball odor were so strong that I actually had to wear a respirator in order to work with the collections in order to do the survey that I was doing. So it's really important to do that because things like acetic acid, I mean it's a mild acid, but it's still in credits, can be caustic. So it's really important to do that. So different cartridges will protect you from different hazards. And I also, in the handout, I talk about where you can get these kinds of things. So these things are cartridges that can be attached to your respirator. You can also get disposable half masks entirely for a particular chemical. Dust masks will do nothing. Anything that looks like a dust mask will do nothing for chemicals will do nothing. So please don't think those are protecting you because they aren't. OK, enough with the health and safety alarms. So how do I get rid of this odor? All right, there's a couple ways. Number one, if it's something that is a particular origin odor, like if you have soot on your item or mildew or mold, hepatociltrate vacuums are great. This one I'm showing here is the NILFISC GM80 with variable speed control. The variable speed control and suction control is really great because then you can control how much suction you're actually applying to your object so you don't suck up parts of the object you're not supposed to. So here's a really nice picture of someone working on a textile at the Shelburne Museum in Vermont. They're using a screen over the textile. So while you vacuum it makes sure that you don't actually suck up things that you shouldn't be. So if you have something where the variable suction is not so great, this is actually a really good technique so you don't lose little fibers or anything while you're vacuuming. And there's also soot removing sponges, otherwise known as the Gonzo pet hair lifter sponge. And what these are made of, they're a form of rubber. So they're really great at getting up soot. They're really good at obviously getting up pet hair. But these, since this is a form of rubber, they should not, not, not, not be used on any object that contains silver. This is especially true for photographic materials, which does have an element of silver in it. That's the image part. It also, and obviously, don't use on silver or silver plated objects. And I just want to be clear that this is not a Gonzo sponge, because I know you were all thinking it when I said Gonzo, right? OK, next. Weird when no one laughs. OK, but anyway, maybe you're laughing at home or not. So some other ways you can get rid of the odor. So once you've either cleaned the item, and once you've cleaned the item, or it's an object that you don't need cleaned, it's not a particular problem with your object, you can do some passive things to actually get rid of the odor. One way is to use microchamber or art care products. I love microchamber because this stuff is great, and I've used it on many occasions when I've had objects that have been in a house fire or items when I've had to wrap up film that has to go into cold storage because it's emitting a lot of, it has a vinegar syndrome problem. It's really great for that sort of thing. Art care is mostly, that line from Nielsen Bainbridge is mostly matting materials. So this would be more for things that you're going to, when you're going to mat and frame something and hang in on the wall. So why is microchamber awesome? I will tell you why. Microchamber and art care are awesome. They have these great things called zeolites, and that's the pretty little zeolite over here. Isn't it pretty? Yes. OK, this is a molecule that's made to trap smaller molecules, like volatile, low molecular weight and off-gassing products like I told you about earlier. So airborne pollutants like sulfur dioxide, ozone, that sort of thing, they also get trapped in these lovely little zeolites as well. So they're great for collections that live in, if you happen to live in an area that has a lot of pollution, Los Angeles, New York City, that sort of thing. But those are really good for that if you don't have a really good air filtration system already in place. So what you do with these objects with the microchamber products, they make a whole line of different things. You could get boxes, folders, force laps, cases for film, and just regular old paper. So what I've done in the past for things that have been exposed to soot, to a fire, that sort of thing, is I've wrapped objects. I mean, we're talking like giant paintings, textiles. I've just wrapped the thing in the paper and then sort of sealed it up either in a large, like sealed up in plastic, a plastic bag, like a zip top bag, that sort of thing. And then you wait. Sometimes the odor can be gone in a week. Sometimes it can be months. It's just hard to tell how long it might actually take. But this sort of treatment does require some patience. So that's the thing about the passive stuff, is it's basically hurry up and wait. Put the object in the paper, seal it up, and wait. And check, you know, every so often. And just see how things are going. Here's a nice example of how this works. So this jar on the left here has just regular buffered conservation board right here. And this one contains microchamber. So an hour after adding nitrogen dioxide gas, oh, I think I had it backwards again. I did. This is the one with microchamber. This is the one that's not microchamber. So, excuse me, my arrow is going haywire. So this one, an hour later, you see the microchamber has absorbed the gas. And the buffered conservation board has not. It's only been an hour. So it's a nice visualization to show kind of how this works. So the other thing to note is that the paper that was in the chamber, that was the microchamber paper, this actually maintained a neutral pH. And this paper went down to a pH of 2.4. And that's really, really, really acidic and in only an hour. OK, the other way to get rid of odor is the ever so popular trash can method. Now, you don't have to use a trash can. This is just basically a good example of showing how this will work. So what you need are two containers. One container has to be able to fit inside the other one. So the smaller container doesn't need a lid, but your larger container does need a lid. So this is your small container here, the dotted line thing. And this stuff here is the larger container with the lid. So what you do is you put one of these things in the bottom of the larger can. It can be kitty litter, activated charcoal. You can even use charcoal briquettes. You can use baking soda. And our friend Gonzo's back with Gonzo odor eliminator. I'll talk a little bit more about that. So you put that down there. And then your object that is problematic, and oh, I forgot to put that there. OK, but your object that smells funny, it goes into the smaller container. You seal it all up. And again, you wait. But it does work. Like again, you just have to be patient and wait for it to off gas fully. So Gonzo odor eliminator. The University of Iowa came up with this neat trick where you put this stuff, Gonzo odor eliminator, which actually ends up being, it's another zeolite. It's basically a volcanic rock. That's all it is. And it's an awesome zeolite. It actually sucks up a lot of the volatile components. But it's a big old bag. So what they were doing is they used heat sealed tea bag paper, put the material inside the tea bag, and then sealed it up with a heat, like a tanking iron, and then put those in like little tea bags inside boxes that had problems, had odor problems. So that's another way to do it. You could also do this with baking soda, and you could probably do it with the kitty litter as well. I wouldn't do it with the charcoal, because I think that the charcoal would most likely offset out of the bag and onto your stuff. So I wouldn't want that to happen, because it's black stuff. OK, here's the whatnot to use. So one of the ones that you often see or hear about is called ozone. So what it is is something that's coated by restoration companies after a flood or a fire. They will say that this is a way, they'll call it ozonation, as a way to remove odors. You also may hear it called hydroxylated ozone. However they advertise it, it's something you really should not use on collections. What ozone is, is a strong oxidizer. And what that means is that it can break down things pretty quickly and pretty easily, especially things like cellulose, which is the main component of paper. And rubber, if you lived in Los Angeles and they have a lot of smog in there in Los Angeles, as people probably know, one of the components of smog is ozone. So tires oftentimes don't last very long in Los Angeles because of the amount of ozone in the air, and that's because the ozone is breaking down the rubber and the tires. So it's a really strong oxidizing agent. So conservators generally do not recommend it as a way to remove odors. It just isn't a good idea. It also, research has shown that it also can change blue dyes in some types of fabrics. So it really is just something that you want to avoid, unless it's something that it's your house and you don't, it's something where you're not really concerned, but for collection objects, conservators do not recommend it. And the ever present for breeze. OK, for breeze, for breeze is a nice concept. It's a total, total trick. It's a total chemistry trick. And I will tell you the chemistry trick. So it says that it gets odors out of fabric. No. What it does is it tricks you into thinking that the odors are gone. So this lovely little thing over here is called a beta cyclo-dextrin. Cyclo-dextrin, yes. Which is basically, for all intents and purposes, it's a carbohydrate. It's a starch. So that is the active ingredient in the breeze, along with water. So what happens is the odor, the odor either be diluted by the water that's in the breeze, or the odor will already be small enough to go inside that donut hole right there, where the arrows are all pointing. And basically, the odors hide in there. And since, and then when they hide in there, our scent receptors can't smell it, because that ring just added a whole bunch of molecular weight to your odor and made the odor less volatile. So you can't smell the odor anymore. So the more of the molecules that get trapped in those lovely little donut holes, the fewer odor molecules will reach our receptors. That's why it seems like the odor's disappearing, but it actually isn't. And what happens is over time, the odor molecule will bind more and more with that starch ring from your breeze and then become part of the starch. And that starch, my friends, is living in your fabric, where you left it. The only way that you're gonna be able to get it out completely is if you wash your objects. And many fabrics are not gonna be something you're gonna be washing. So you're not gonna be throwing your nice clothes into the washing machine. So it's really not a good idea to be leaving that starch element in your collection. And some fabrics can be adversely affected by the starch or even the water that's part of the debris. And also starch is a great food source for many insects like silverfish. So you definitely don't wanna be adding this. And Lysol, the ever-present Lysol. Okay, so what Lysol is, mostly, is ethanol or eso-alcohol, the stuff you get from your vodka, with propellants and antimicrobials. So what Lysol really is doing is disinfecting. It's killing the source of the odor, so it no longer emits those MVOCs, the microbial volatile organic compounds. Ah, yes, see? Yeah, you're learning. So that's why it's good at reducing mold and mildew odors because it's killing the mold. That's what's happening. So the reason why the main problem with Lysol in it is the main component, it's main ingredient, which is ethanol. Ethanol can make dyes and inks run or bleed. It also can break up sizing or stiffening agents in paper and textiles. So you really can't, so it can actually do some adverse things to your object. So you really don't wanna be spraying your stuff with that. So basically it's gonna be something that might alter your object, so don't, so it's not really something you wanna use on your object. And here's another passive method that's really good, mostly for the collections that you're experiencing, the problem odors, the odor's warning signs, the vinegar and the moth balls. Cold or cold storage. And like I said, it's a temporary method because what's happening is you're basically slowing down your chemical reaction. Volatilization, that evaporation, is a chemical reaction. So the cooler or colder against the slower the actual chemical reaction is. So you're basically gonna be slowing that down. So you're slowing down the volatility, essentially. So like I said, it's really good, a good method for film and photographic collections, long as, especially if it's suffering from vinegar syndrome or is actively deteriorating. This is a way to actually sort of slow down that deterioration. And you wanna use, like in my vintage picture here, usually folks use chest freezers, or freezers built especially to control relative humidity to use to store film. So you don't wanna necessarily use your freezer that's part of your refrigerating unit in your kitchen. And if it's cellulose nitrate, you'll need special types of freezers because nitrate's highly flammable. And there are also companies that will store film for you. So if you actually don't have particularly good storage conditions, but you have a really important film collection that you want to protect for the long term, you can actually contact companies that will do the storage for you. And so you won't have to worry about it. So that is an option. And if you are planning to do this, you have to make sure that the objects have proper housing when they go into the freezer. And acclimatization for when it comes out of the freezer. So when you take it out of the freezer, you wanna pop it into a zip top bag and zip the zipper closed and let it acclimate to room temperature so that you don't have to worry about condensation getting onto your film. And usually 24 hours is all you need for it to acclimatize to room conditions. Okay, and just for fun, because some of you people totally have dogs out there or cats that have had run-ins with skunks because I totally remember this as a kid. And a parent's thoughts may or juice was the answer. It is not the answer. I have found the answer. This is really nothing to do with collections because you can't really use this on collections, but I thought it was really cool. So let me just at least tell you. So this is the three components of skunk musk, essentially, and they're called styles. And there's all the crazy chemistry and isn't it scary? And yeah, so that's what you're smelling when your dog has your run-in with peppy lapieu outside in the back. This apparently is, this is the dude down here in the corner with his little pet squirrel, it's Paul Creebaum. And this guy has come up with a chemical composition, the stuff that basically you can mix up. Oh, and it seems like our sponsor has used it and it has worked, and I've heard other people say it. You mix up one quarter, 3% hydrogen peroxide, one quarter cup baking soda, and one teaspoon of liquid hand soap, and you have to mix it up right away. You can't mix it up and store it later, but you mix it up, and this actually works because styles are not soluble in water. So giving the dog a bath, tomato juice, anything that's a water soluble product is totally not gonna work. So, but this solution actually breaks up the styles. So this totally works. And I've got the link there and I will have the link in your handout at the end. So that would be the end of my presentation. I see those questions over here, over here on the right hand in the parking lot. So I will try and answer these. And I- Yeah, if you want, I can just start sending them your way. So when folks keep coming with the questions at the Q&A, we have about 15 more minutes. Okay. So one of our questions is about the gel-like odor removers that you can get from Dollar General. Are those safe to remove mildly smells from books? I have used those in my home, but I think I think essentially all they are is they're covering up the odor. I don't think they're actually removing it. I actually don't know what they're made of. I'd have to look up to see what they're made of, but my guess is it's something similar to renews it or those gel things that you can buy in stores that just sort of cover up odors. I don't think they actually eliminate them. Because if they actually were an absorbent type of thing, like they claim on the package, they wouldn't disappear over time. So it's like a gel component that's actually adding in fragrance to the air. It's probably doing something similar to the breeze. Okay. Where it's kind of tricking your sensors. Great, and then I have a question from Cassie about the handout, and yes, it will be available. We'll post it, I'll actually post it for you guys right now. And I also have a survey that I'll post if you guys wouldn't mind filling it out. And this handout will also be available on our website when we post the recording of this event. So let me move on to the next question. This is a great one from Kathy in Hatfield, Massachusetts. She's wondering, in your experience, what is the better product to use? Kiddler, baking soda, the Gonzo Eliminator. What do you think is kind of your best, the best bang for your buck? Ah, that's a good question. I haven't found baking soda to be very good. I think that would be probably the least effective one. I have found the kitty litter because it is a zeolite type of material. Probably would work quite well. And it certainly wouldn't be, it probably would be the best bang for your buck in terms of being able to buy it in bulk. And it doesn't matter if it's the clumping or non-clumping, that does, I forgot to mention that. But you probably want to do unscented because you don't want some sort of weird flowery scent on top of whatever you're trying to, what odor you're trying to get rid of. I actually have to say that I have not used the Gonzo odor Eliminator. That was simply somebody had used that in, at the University of Iowa, during the Iowa floods, for some mold and mildew smells for some of the books. So I don't actually know how well that works. But the kitty litter, I think, would be that's certainly better than the baking soda, that I would say. Okay, great. And I'm surprised by the number of people who are saying urine is a big problem in their collections. What is your recommendation for removing that smell out of the ones that you kind of detailed? Is there one that would be a better fit for urine in collections? Well, urine, urea, is, it's a key tone. So, oh my gosh, how is that? I mean, I would think that any of the things I recommend it should work. Problem is, depending, is there actually, if there's actually urine on the objects, hopefully not, then we're talking about a biohazard. So that's something that they have to consider. If it's something like that, I would recommend talking to their company, document restoration companies. If it's something where it's papers and you don't have to keep the originals, I would highly recommend getting photocopies and replacing those and having the originals destroyed. I've had to do that, we've had to do that with archives before. If something is really bad, if the mold or mildew problem or if it's urine, something just, or a biohazard, blood, something like that, that's usually what I would recommend. But for the smell, I think you can try any of these tricks to see if they work. Depending on how, the microchamber thing, that's probably the most expensive method. So if you have a lot to actually take care of, that might be harder to do. Then I would probably do one of the, quote unquote, trash can methods and see if you put your papers inside the smaller container and line the bottom with the kitty litter and see how well that works. That'd probably be the most cost effective. But if it's something that's actually been urinated on, I would highly, highly recommend it if it's something that you actually have to think about keeping in your collection because of the biohazard problem. Great, and Captain from Boston is also saying, that might also raise a rodent problem as well. Exactly, rodents don't see very well, they have an incredibly strong sense of smell. And that's how they track, if it's rodent urine, that's the problem. That's how they basically track each other to know where to go, to make paths, to go to food sources and basically and go back to their nets and that sort of thing. So like I said, big biohazard, so if you have to keep it, you might want to consider doing the photocopying or not keeping it at all. Definitely, let me interrupt for just a second. We have about 10 more minutes left, so I just want to point out again the survey link. You know, we look at all of your answers, they're so helpful to us, so if you could just take a few minutes to fill it out for us and then again at the top, we have the handout and that will also be available when we post the recording on this event. So keep your questions coming, we've got 10 more minutes, we'll try to get to them. I have another one for you, Tara from Angela. And she is wondering, is there a way to tell if the odor is coming from the object because it's degenerating or could it be something on the surface, like a surface treatment like pesticides? And that came up earlier in the chat. Oh, pesticides. That would depend on the kind of object because sometimes, I mean it very well could be something like a pesticide. If it's something that you have had that came from, I don't know, people sometimes find collections in barns, sometimes there's pesticides involved with that. Pesticides are often from items overseas, if it's something where the package has been treated with a pesticide before being sent off, that sometimes happens. There's usually, depending on what, it really would depend on the kind of object, does the person say, is it paper, is it a book, is it textile, do they say what it is, the type of thing. We had an earlier comment about, I believe, books that were shipped and then the ships that they were all more fumigated. I'm not sure about the more recent comment. So if you- Okay. And if it's been fumigated, part of the problem is a lot of the pesticides that have been banned by the EPA in this country haven't necessarily been banned in other countries. So I also would caution anyone handling collections that have been treated with pesticides. Depending on where they work, if they have any ties to health and safety organizations, that if they suspected a pesticide or fumigation had been used on something, they might want to talk to them. If it's an object, like something where they would want to probably talk to a conservator whose specialty it is, like if it were something like, I don't know, something that was a wooden object that had been fumigated for termites or something along those lines, they might be better off talking to a specialist in conservation for wooden objects and they may know best how to handle that sort of thing because they've probably encountered it before. Things like pesticides, urine, I mean, particular things where there's a hazard to human health, and even with mold, if it's a huge mold outbreak, I should mention as well, you really need to talk to health and safety people or a conservator just to make sure that you or your staff or the public's health isn't put at risk because safety for you is paramount before any object. So I just want to make sure that folks know that. Oh, a long winded, sorry. No, and Angela just, she responded and said they're generally ethnographic items, so skins and baskets and gourds. Yeah, then I would definitely talk to an object's conservator. This would be people who would know better to how to handle that. My specialty, books and paper, and I think I wouldn't feel necessarily comfortable knowing what to do about that sort of thing, but objects conservators by the score can be found on that website that you have up there. Yeah, so for very specific information and for more detail for these specific problems, you can always go to the American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works and they can help you locate a conservator near you. That would be great. So we've got about five more minutes. I have another question and this one I thought was really interesting about the smell of leather and the tannic acid used in tanning the leather. Now, is that a bad odor? I mean, I think we're all accustomed to that smell. Can that signal anything if it gets stronger or anything like that, or is that one of those smells that just isn't inherent? That's a good question. I actually don't know. I do know it's sort of an inherent odor to leather, but I don't actually know. There's other science about leather deteriorating that you could look for. If you have a lot of powdery red rat, it's also called, that's a sign that leather's deteriorating. If there are other signs besides just the strong tannic acid that might be a component of the leather from leather dressings and that sort of thing or the inherent composition of the leather, that may be a better indicator than the odor. Okay. And then we have a question about formaldehyde from Dee and she's curious if the related odor stemming from their fluid-preserved collections. Do you have any ideas of eliminating? And I think I've heard in the past increased air circulation and those sorts of things. Any advice? Yes. Yeah, for fluid collections, they actually do have conservators who do, and collections experts who do specialize in these sorts of areas, but for fluid-based collections, it's really important to have good air circulation. That actually is probably your best method because you're not gonna be able to deal with the odor. Also, those jars, if they're specimens in the jars, the jars should be actually really well-field. And if you're smelling formaldehyde, that probably means they're not. So looking into an expert, there are experts that actually will, that are available that I actually could get to somebody, whoever the person is who's asking. We had to do that sort of fluid replacement in formaldehyde for collections that we have here at Yale, and we actually had somebody who was actually doing the work. So I can find somebody for someone if they need that because it sounds like the cases need to be resealed or the containers need to be resealed. So that might be something they need to look into. And then another question from Catherine from Boston about mold on a large scale. Is it advisable to get a professional company, I guess, if you're concerned about health and how do you work alongside them so that your collections are protected? I've done this many times for mold remediation for collections. It's important to, what we do here at the university when we've had mold outbreaks in collections is we've had sent out a request for proposal asking, sending it to particular document restoration companies, companies like Bell Four, the MS Cat, Polygon, which used to be called Munters, and we asked for a proposal, how they would take care of this mold remediation problem. And we would walk through, show them what it was, and based on their proposals and questions that we asked them, we'll hire a company to do the work. And what I did was supervise, that there would have to be one supervisor and folks working for them, and I would keep in close contact with the supervisor to make sure that the work wasn't being done correctly. I would show up unannounced to see how they were doing. I asked to make sure that they were doing the work correctly. I also worked with our Office of Environmental Health and Safety to make sure that the containerization was part of it too. On Yale's preservation website, there's a list of requests for proposals, and I do have one from mold remediation that's up there that folks could use as an example if they need help in writing something like that. So if you need me to give you that link, Jenny, I can do that, and you can post it. If Catherine wants to take a look at that. That would be perfect, thank you so much. And then just the micro chamber paper, we've had a couple questions. Can you get those from multiple vendors of archival supplies? Or I have seen it, I've seen it mostly with conservation resources, which is, I've put on that handout. And I think if you do an internet search, they do pop up on other sites, but I'm not sure that all the products are available from many different vendors, but you can certainly look. My experience has been well-working with conservation resources. Great, well, it looks like we are out of time. There are still a few more questions, but please go over to the discussion board and continue to have this conversation. So many great questions and information provided today. Let's see. So our next event, we'll have our next live chat event on Wednesday, October 10th at 2 p.m. Eastern. Works for the Canadian Conservation Institute's online light damage calculator. If you received our email about the fall schedule, please just note that this is now the 10th that's been moved and we're so sorry for any confusion. Again, the survey link is on the bottom of the screen. Please take a moment to fill it out. And a recording of this webinar and all these related resources, so this handout will have a PDF of the presentation and then all these links that we've been talking about. We'll include on the recording of this webinar. Thank you so much, Tara, for entertaining us all today. It was so informational. And thank you all for joining us. Thank you for attending this live chat. And again, the webinar recording will be on the website very soon. Thank you all. Have a great afternoon. Thank you.