 Hello everyone, my name is Angelica Baskera from the SOA Centre of African Studies and I'm very pleased to welcome everyone tonight to our Artist Talk series. It is a series of events that has been running for a number of years at the Centre of African Studies in collaboration with the SOA School of Art. Today in particular we are collaborating with Gallery 1957. Gallery 1957 is a gallery that was founded and based in Accra in Ghana but now has a London Outpost that opened in 2020. The gallery has a curatorial focus on West Africa and presenting a programme of exhibition, installation and performances by the region's most significant artists. And one of them is Yao Obuso that we are very, very pleased and honoured to welcome today to talk with us in our series. Yao creates a culture installation that's a repurposed found object, shifting the value of otherwise worthless material into things of beauty. Built from countless pieces of loose change known as specific coins, his work activates urgent questions around economic and political independence in contemporary Ghana. If first introduced as an attempt to cure the counter-economic inflation in 2007, this small copper coin has almost no value in today's financial climate, enabling the artist to use them as his primary material. So this is like a very brief sort of a snapshot, but we will hear more now directly from Yao and we are very, very grateful to our colleague, Dr. David Malik from the SOA School of Art who has kindly agreed to chair the discussion today and to engage with Obuso's work. And I'll now pass it on to David to take over the conversation with Yao. Thank you very much and welcome everyone. Thank you very much Angelica, welcome everyone again. I'm very happy to be invited to participate and to speak with such an exciting artist Yao Wusu. I will just go very briefly about the structure, we kind of decided how we're going to go about it today. So for whoever you just joined at the moment, we will be decided with Yao, we will kind of structure it around three key themes, key subjects. The first one we will look at the early stages of Yao's art practice or his personal and artistic trajectory in Ghana. We will perhaps touch upon his formal and informal forms of training, apprenticeship, and most likely his inspiration as an emerging artist in Ghana. So that's the first stage and then we will move to his current art practice. He's located in New York, so we will look at his work there. And mainly we will discuss his recent collaboration with the gallery 1957 as Angelica highlighted just now. And we will use this talk to invite you and to encourage you to come and visit the gallery here in London. I believe that next week Yao is organizing in cooperation with the gallery. It's kind of artist walkthrough. So we will discuss that. We will look at the materials Yao is using, the techniques and most importantly, these kind of conceptual ideas behind this beautiful work. And then at the third topic or we will close up with discussion about his ambitions towards future. We will look at what's ahead, which kind of projects are ahead, his ambitions and so on so forth. So this will take for about 40 minutes. In the meanwhile throughout the discussion Yao will be sharing images, images of his previous installations. And through all that I would encourage you to please engage participate, write your questions in that if you look at your zoom on the bottom there's little Q&A. So you can write your questions there or you can write it in that in a chat, which is also on that on that kind of bottom link. Take notes throughout the talk. And then once we finish discussion between me and Yao we're going to give space to your questions and that would last for maybe another 40, 30, 40 minutes and we will wrap up around 6.15, 6.30. So should we start Yao, welcome again. I'm afraid you too. Would you like to say a few words before we start. I mean, first off, I would love to thank the School of Oriental and African Studies and, you know, the Center of African Studies for organizing this in conjunction with the gallery. Angelica and then also to thank you for also, you know, chairing this very important kind of discussion for me about the work. I'm privileged also to the audience for joining. I'm privileged to have the opportunity to share my work, my practice to them. So yeah, I'm excited about this and I look forward to what we talk about now. Fantastic. Thank you very much. So should we should we start with perhaps your artistic kind of upbringing artistic trajectory in Ghana. If you be so kind perhaps discuss your both formal informal forms of training apprenticeship. What was the inspiration behind and kind of the beginnings of your art practice. Maybe I'll share some images and so we agree. But really I started. I schooled in. Let me see. Let me go back to this. In Ghana was born and raised there. And my parents, my parent, my dad was a teacher so I grew up in this archive where he had collections of books and most importantly like news articles, newspapers from around the world. And in this, in this sort of archival room that's where I used to paint, you know, painting from Western influences, you know, seeing the most masterpieces and things like that and also painting things and scenes that I would see around as a young kid. And I loved that. I mean, I didn't know what that made me an artist because I didn't understand that at the time, but I studied in high school where I did picture making textiles and also chemistry which is pretty much like painting in itself. And then after high school I went to care university university and then I studied painting and sculpture. So for the early ages I was painting and I was used to that aspect of art and also studied painting in care university. But in my final years, I think I got, I got a little bored with it with a, you know, traditional technique of painting because I didn't have any subject matter to it. And then on one journey when I was working with people, cameras, I went to the beach in the south coast of, you know, Cape Coast of Ghana. And there, when I came back, I realized that the, you know, copper passwords, you know, the one person that I had in my pocket had changed into these beautiful textures and colors. And then I think that was the time that I realized, oh, that could be a very interesting objects to paint with. So I started making kind of compositions with that. Until I started, you know, also investigating to where it was made, what it was made of, you know, these things opened it all up to me identifying that actually was made by the Royal Canadian Mint. And like I said, I go up around my desk, political articles and these kind of political contests. So everything about my work was tied, you know, to that political relevance. And I became interested in questing economies with that. And this is a close up of, you know, one of the earlier pieces that I did. But then also, I started studying maps, I started studying, you know, the origins of commodities. This is like an early 1930 also mapped from Gold Coast. And it's, it's pretty much a railway kind of line where, you know, the railway system was built or generated around where commodities are in Ghana, you know, to be exported, you know, during the Gold Coast era or during the colonialism colonization era. And so I became, I began making forms and works that mimic these sort of maps and meet these four sort of places of commodities or objects of value. And these installations all made of the Peswas with that kind of knowledge of oxidation. Like I said, I had just identified that the Peswa would just react to anything. So I started pushing that idea of generating color, generating texture with the Peswas and then I would paint with that. I also became interested in form. I became interested in economic and, you know, political structure of Ghana, how, you know, even finances and social status had demarcated societies, depending on who lives where, you know, and I think it's a global phenomenon, but I was mostly interested in the Ghanaian aspects of it, you know, when, during my university time. So I started making forms like this that were actually kind of, you know, interrogating structural forms, you know, architectural, you know, you know, architectures and things like that and space also became really relevant for me. And then I moved on also to taking the works outside because I realized that I was almost getting stuck into that idea or that traditional sense of painting where the work had to like, you know, lay flat or, you know, a wall or, you know, it needed to be seen in that kind of vertical posture. And I had this opportunity to work at a railway station that was in working. And then I think the interest became about non-functional systems with a non-functional currency. And I think this, these like almost kind of invisible or like non-functional columns that run around, like it dropped, draped around the walls of these, this kind of collapsed railway station. And then interrogating the systems of power at a time, the Ghanaian government in terms of economics in terms of distribution of wealth or access and this kind of infrastructural deficits in the country at a time. And these are like from, you know, people coming to pick up. So then when I took the works out, I then realized that it was reacting to space, it was reacting to people. And that, I think, also led me to be interested in space, you know, consider space as a very important object in my work. And then in 2017, I think I had this opportunity to also exhibit at the Talawata Art Festival, which happens in James Town. And when I had the space kind of designated for me, it was at the Asha Fort. Now the Asha Fort is a previous colonial kind of slave prison. And I had this pretty much short time frame and it's a festival. So people, I believe my thought was that people wouldn't have the chance to like stay or stand for minutes to grasp kind of abstract works like the ones that I was doing. So I went straight to kind of bringing an object or an image that people could relate to. So I made this almost, I think, 15 by 24 feet wide flag all cladded in the pestle. And ironically, the area that this festival happens, which is James Town, is one of the most impoverished, maybe, excuse me for my lack of vocabulary, but impoverished neighborhoods. So when I had the work there and imagine people coming to see the flag cladded in money. I mean, in my mind, I wasn't considering all of these, but then it became people started taking the money from the flag. Because I mean, for whatever reason, but they had seen money that had been left there. I think not until a few, maybe years after the work and me understanding what actually happened. That's when I really got to understand that the work wasn't about the flag, it wasn't about, you know, the beauty of the object that I created. But it was about the interaction with the people with the space and the contests that had placed the work into it. So in video like this you see the kids coming and picking, liberally beating the flag to pick up coins. And I felt that was a very powerful thing that could happen when you had to work in this form in a way that I didn't have to force a narrative into it. It was just happening in this sense and you could see the reality of this situation that I had been kind of interrogating. Yeah, so I think these are some of the thoughts that I was working with when I was in Ghana through my uni days and also a few years after I graduated. That's absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much for sharing these beautiful images I found particularly the flag you created incredible project because as you have highlighted the work is kind of not finished the moment you have laid your last coin but the process still continues as the communities kind of participate on that on that second life of that object that's that's beautiful that's wonderful. And I would like to just follow up on something you have mentioned. Yeah, very interesting. Looking at that flag kind of thinking about the material looking at the materiality of that and of the and the process making of that one it kind of brings me brings to my mind is kind of the notion of the western approaches to African visual culture have been quite until quite recently separate kind of separated this, the long standing out traditions from modern as if these two categories had no common ground, as if only the former was authentically African. However, at the Kwame in his book African Modernism he quite nicely demonstrated that tradition is also an active process of handing on a subject of evolution development and the history and I would like to ask you kind of what is your image as an artist to some of the rich art traditions of Ghana textile making bronze casting whatever whatever influence to you whatever you think informed you as an artist. That's, that's, that's a beautiful point you raised that I think it's a promise, you know, if in commissive, you know, realism, you know you see he was basically just documenting daily life, you know, daily objects. And these are things that going up you see, you know, you see people hand painting signs and billboards and things like that. The complete of painting, you know, doesn't really. I didn't have to learn outside Ghana, the choice of color in a sense I'm an I'm an asante so the choice of color in the King day and even meaning attached to these kind of test cells and, and how you even word when you were like these are things that basically it's, it's not surreal to the to the West African living to the African contest. Of course, maybe it was not documented or maybe perhaps it wasn't projected as the Western canon would have been projected, but like in up north the woman pain, like, these are things that it's like a daily activity it wasn't taught by from maybe an outside lens, but we will live in this. So I think, even in my work. It's, I do not need a chemical kind of process. These are things that I, I self taught myself. Because when I, maybe one point is when I was, I was a kid, I used to paint with everything, you know, I would paint with shoe polishes, I would paint with toothpaste, you know anything that could give me color, instead of like acrylic or oils. So you then become used to your own, your own kind of form or own way of making or creating an image or a picture or painting or even a sculpture so I think I grew up knowing the diverse use or the multiplicity of materials. And even though some of them are domestic, as we would use, they are contextually on a global art kind of context, very valid and very viable, you know, to use as objects. So it made me feel comfortable to use the pennies because all the pest was, because then it was generating an extra layer of painting, you know, I am now making my own I never use painting my studio. Maybe the only paint I use is to paint some backgrounds black, of course, but otherwise all the pest was or pennies are the colors and textures are generated without, without paint. I mean, you could describe that as playful alchemy, but it's also purely chemistry if we went to like right equations to back that. Excellent. Well, thank you very much for that from painting your background, your, your artistic trajectory from Ghana and that kind of that moves us smoothly to your current projects to your current exhibition in London and but also towards your life as an artist as a, as a person in New York. Would you be so kind and, and coming on that and perhaps we can do your discussion and showing the objects and images. Maybe we can invite the audiences to visit the current exhibition in the gallery. Yeah. Yeah, maybe also, you know, when I moved to New York, I think I added another extra layer. So, you know, you started seeing these objects, these like beautiful sculptures that are stuck to the ground, documenting them as photos or even lost objects. The idea of space, the idea of decay, especially in New York and you know the disgust of it but also the beauty that comes with it. Now smell, of course, people who are familiar with New York would know, you know, the sense and dirt. The sense that I started to be very aware of and, you know, and I employed in my work. I think the space when I moved to New York started also opening up another layer into my work and then also allowed me to, to go outside. And now going outside means that I wasn't making sculptures anymore. I was making conversations, which was in other sense like creating an extra one other form of artwork. And so I did this kind of, you know, performance, pretty much like, you know, performative piece where I was asking people around New York with this postcard, what they will do for a penny. And it was due to the fact that New York had raised the minimum wage to $15, I believe, and I wanted to know who was working so low to be getting $15 an hour and who, you know, was paid. So the idea of exchange of value for labor then became very interesting. So I started this and, you know, going to like train stations that were crowded, you know, people were changing trains. You know, so time also became a very good factor in my work. People, the places where it was leisure like parks, central park, and then like Times Square, you know, where places where time functioned almost differently. And I'll ask them and they'll fill out and I paid them actually, or I compensate them with a penny. So in a sense we were exchanging like at works conversations that were almost extremely valuable, and as much as also exchanging them, so that sense of value exchange became an interesting point. But through that project, I realized that I'll take like 100 cards out and maybe get 15 responses in a day. And I was comfortable with that because I had many and I was doing it. But then I realized that I was, I had my backpack on my back and I would dip my hand into my backpack and pull out the cards to strangers. I mean, I'm from Ghana. So, you know, that act isn't really anything special is not anything of threads. But then I realized how, how dangerous, you know, as an African, you know, black man to be pulling or digging my hand into a bag that nobody knows what it's in, and you know, towards a stranger. So I followed this project to a few people, you know, presentations, then the question became like, didn't you know this was something very dangerous, you know, because people are being shot about, about toy cell phones, about just having their hands in their pockets. So then myself as a person became a big question, because then if it was any other maybe it wasn't a big question, but me as a black person doing this became a valuable kind of point, you know, to kind of address. And also at a time in 2019 was when the ICE was arresting illegal immigrants, you know, trying to get people out. And then I'm on a student visa at a time, but people thought that I was in danger. So that idea of being in between spaces, being an outsider led me to create these cultures that almost felt like you're trapped between spaces. The idea of the emergency blanket that was being used at the borders for like people, separation of families, separation of people from, you know, their purposes and all that. So I started incorporating these objects, I started incorporating my fences, like walls. So the idea of a symbolism or symbols like that American flag what is stood for against what the American government at a time was doing or you know. So that also introduced me to a more kind of American independence because on the on the on the penny that I started using it's repeated liberty ever since it was made. At least since 1905 has liberty glory trust and Lincoln said, so these symbols and images, you know, considering Lincoln as a person of emancipation. And, you know, fast forward 2019 people still being almost incarcerated or under oppression, then became a relevant object for me to use as a question. And what independence means what liberty means. And I think it was a work well because in Ghana, our money is made by the Royal Canadian means the same people who colonized us. And in the US. It's written liberty and you know you are emancipated but you know, black societies are the black people didn't have that equal rights was just in so many fronts. So then I became interested in questioning that. And even this piece that in 2020 during the pandemic which I joined in a lot of the protests for black lives matter, because that was what I had to do. I was in New York, we were on the street and then the whole US were actually finding this, and then I found the 1920 penny. And then, you know, research into it realize that, you know, Marcus Gavi had created a flag for the black folk. But now in 1920 he was fighting the same battle in 1980, you know, David Hammons has created created this flag for the independence of the black Americans. And in 2020 we were fighting the same battle. So it will be an interesting composition to pick up this object of liberation. And then we kind of amplify what is true for in the map from. Yeah, so the work started becoming like that. And later last year, I mean, when it was locked down. It kind of work on. But there are shops are closed. No, there is no transportation of objects know all these kind of delays, and I said this video but I'll talk while it's a place so I was taking out. And it was for my work to make another piece. Chasing out the pennies and I realized. I was reading about Tulsa, I was reading about Greenwood, and then I realized that it was the same thing. It felt like the same kind of visuals thing that happened to the Black Wall Street in Tulsa in 1921. And it often became like a memory loss. So in the gray areas. But I still have the maths of the penny, you know, all the indications and tests. The idea of memory that I don't think it became interested. And that's when I finished the pieces when it opened up for this show. The question. In America, or even through the transatlantic to America, and then I back to London is like drawing a real triangle from some of the people stakeholders through the slave trade and slavery to the formation of the new world which was done, then back to the same place that are the same people that initiated that or some of the same people that initiated that. Well, that is that is very interesting. I think link you just draw because throughout your work I can see that you are very much interested in kind of in the value through materials and kind of the shifting value so these found objects which then you later transform into works of art. And kind of, I can see that you actively research this transformation of these subjects into the value and in our conversation you mentioned the labor what's kind of involved into this into this magical transformation in order to create the subject and also the kind of the idea of object as commodities and you linked it with the transatlantic slave trade when some obviously people were transported as a commodity so would you, would you maybe perhaps elaborate a little bit on that. Yeah, I mean, thanks for the question David I think the idea of the formation of the new world meant that, you know, industries or, you know, needed to be formed you know houses needed to be built through it was real words needed to be to be made, and that need for labor really contributed to that mass kind of distraction by important humans as objects, you know, or as machines out as you would impose like a crane or, you know, at a place or something to to farm. So, I think that need for labor, you know, easily place West Africans and most Africans as objects, and it was traded. Now, when they ended up in the new world, also as you know, they became like functional objects that people were buying them for their strength. It feels kind of weird me using these terms for people for humans but that was the scenario of how the discovery or like the place as an object now required another form of objects to make it function. And then those objects then became human. And in a same way, I kind of feel like me transforming the least or like as an individual because I can see that the person or the penny as an individual like we are single beings. You can go below the penny as a physical tangible object, but that need for objects that need for labor and then turn into that form and then we were traded on courts in wall streets, you know, on these are these kind of specific places that in markets, people were auctioned as objects. And that I think that phenomenon kind of informs my research into value because then how then does an object turns from one to the other. Ironically, the penny and the password, the password for instance is made of steel and it's plated with copper. The penny is made of zinc and it's plated with copper but it's a 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper, but when you take the objects, it looks like it's pure copper. So almost like taking an object to look like another, it's interesting then it became a kind of accumulates value or even generates value. Like in my work, like, you know, you see red pennies, you see gold pennies, you see black, blue, like almost every color, and then it becomes another object that finds sense quite differently. Yes, yes. Well, that's, that's great that you brought this up. Thank you for the very nice conceptual explanation of your thought process and I would like to if we can before we invite people to the gallery and perhaps we can discuss this current exhibition in the gallery 1957 in London. If we can please just for very briefly, if you don't mind, discuss your, your process. How do you work with these coins? How do you work with these tokens? I know that you work with the salt water and different, different liquids, would you be kind and elaborate on that? Yeah. So, initially, when I found the encounter with the sea water, that was an opener. But then, because I was talking about economy, I was talking about exchange and circulation in Ghana, I was using, I would use like vinegar. And then I was tired to, to, like, the eastern regions and middle kind of parts of Ghana where agriculture is more, you know, there's more, more, more, the most economic activity. And, you know, you could use like, so things that were found at places is what I was using. So, I use like elements, I use like humidity, sunlight, I try to use all natural objects or natural elements that if I do not initiate this reaction, maybe over years, it won't end up that way. Yeah. So, so then I think it will feel quite artificial if I was, I had a lab and I was like, okay, this is like sodium chloride, let's put it into like ammonium and then create this kind of artificial coloring. I think that would take out my heart from it. But these are very, very, very common objects that everyday objects that we use and that everyday conditions to generate these colors. And some are potentially, like could potentially morph into other things, you know, close to other conditions as well. So you have like colors and textures like these that are, I mean, it's hard to describe but then it happened in the very, very common conditions. And I use steel as well. So, you know, these are, I believe like a reference industrialization, a reference capitalism, a reference building nations, you know, and what I do is I treat steel with seem very robust as paper or as fabric that you can weave, you can cut, you can lay them over in layers and layers. So, you know, something like capitalism that seemed almost like extremely robust become something very light and very loose. I mean, restricted or like green-blade to fit human needs. So these are things that I think about when I'm working, you know, of course, you know, architecture or city designs, kind of classes and things like that, that almost like demarcations inform the body. And I mean, sometimes I also experiment with complex forms that I cannot describe, but the idea that I can actually use the steel or the penny, anyhow I want is really interesting. That's very, very interesting. Well, should we use this as our bridge to invite people to your current exhibition in London and perhaps if you'd be so kind and share a few words, what are you showing, where is it and how long is it going to be for and perhaps we can also invite people for the next week artist all because I believe that explanation and discussion with an artist in front of this work is the best as it gets, I think. Yeah, I mean, the work, as I mentioned, has been a year in the making, so a lot of effort and a lot of hands has gone through it. So the show we are having a walk through next week, next week Thursday, where, of course, mine is something you need to see so you can experience the depth of it, and even the aesthetics of it. And it's happening in the gallery in 1907 in Kesinston, Kesinston, one high park gates. So yeah, I invite everybody to come, let's have discussions if you have like extra questions. Whilst we engage with the works physically, I love to answer any questions also learn from you as much as possible. Yeah, so this is like a very big invitation to everybody. Come, let's discuss about the work and see it and tell me what you think, tell me what history I need to know, because I would love to learn from people as much as I can. Excellent, excellent. I had the privilege to visit a couple weeks ago, I very much enjoyed it. It's a beautiful space, beautiful artwork. And that brings me to another question. I know that, for example, we, we're gonna stay from comparisons, but I know that, for example, Alnatsue's work, he led the curators, he led the institution and our private investors to display his work as they please so they can fold it in ways they, they find interesting. Do you instruct curators in because I saw that not all of your work is flat some of it is flowing like textiles as well. Do you enclose instructions, do you enclose the video so do you let their kind of, kind of artistic endeavor and inspiration or moments of madness to intervene with your work. Most of the work is made by accident, like unconventional me, so there's that freedom to make changes as well as being installed. Also because the work, my work kind of interactive space completely different. In the studio, I have one thing and in the gallery or any other space it functions different depending on how the place is. So, once I make it or I try to make it, the work then starts making itself by how it lives. So I mean I could only have unlimited control bar. Yeah, because the lighting is different encounters are different the spaces also are different so there's that room for people it's like almost make changes. Well, that's that's brilliant. That's brilliant. Thank you. Well, I hope that we will see lots of people there next week. And before we give space to our audience to ask questions or share their ideas and their comments. Maybe we can move to our last chapter of our talk. This is the this is before I start this is one of the beautiful foldy work, very kind of plastic very textile like that's a beautiful kind of transition of a material I find it I find very interesting it's a beautiful work. So, would you be so kind and perhaps share what what's in what's ahead what's the future. I know that we can predict but hopefully perhaps we maybe have some plans maybe some ambitions where we know exhibit and so and so forth what's what's ahead for you. After this this show that I think the future is almost limit this. I mean I have so much creative energy now to take whatever risk that I want to. And, like I said, I am enjoying the works leaving outside by control spaces. So, I've started some sort of outdoor field works that I'm pushing that idea with materials and how it reacts to space and environments. So that's one big project that I'm working on now. I'm also working towards a bigger collaboration with other artists that we could potentially make works together potentially learn by, you know, just sharing each other's kind of processes. So that's, I think that's the that's the future now like erasing boundaries between the artists genius and collaborations. And that's how I want to go. So there'll be a number of collaborations with established and artists like myself. Yeah, to build and to learn from each other I don't know what we can create. It could be a right and it could be some other form that that can come out of this but of course, as I'm working with the gallery 97 there are a lineup of other shows and projects that you know I wouldn't talk right now, but that people get to be surprised when they have more ambitious, more ambitious projects and there is no limits from here. That's excellent. We perhaps forget to mention that the gallery, 1957 they have bought gallery here in London and a very beautiful place close to Hyde Park as well as a gallery space in Ghana in Accra. So whoever's traveling West Africa, perhaps good point to to visit. Is there anything else we should add before we give space to our audiences for any questions. I mean aside, the show is up until the end of this week maybe a standard but yeah, I look forward to welcoming everybody. And also your questions if anybody has one. Is there anyone from the audience would like to ask a question we can do it either through the video or you can do it through putting a question on your in the chat, or perhaps in your Q&A give one minute perhaps 30 seconds before people can formulate it or write it Before we do that, can I ask you as you have mentioned that you are very interested in the value and kind of also in the perhaps you can call it a macroeconomics of Ghana and how young generations suffers perhaps some mistakes of what has been done in the past. In the past I know that we discussed this very briefly in our private conversation but how do you see for example the future of the cryptocurrencies and kind of how this could open up opportunities if ever to younger generation to participate on a global markets on global events and being truly involved in the international flows of money, goods, services and so on and so forth. So I think Ghana now has become almost like a hub for for artists especially it's a growing economy. So I think initially maybe a decade or two ago when we needed to reach the West for economic kind of exchanges now it's more the opposite. So, there are lots of artists in Ghana who have like more Western or even outside collectors now than ever, and they are buying from from Ghana, like especially also is in Ghana, and it has numerous clients in terms of like the digital currency space of course there is. There's still that limitation because of the use of credit cards, Ghana's economy doesn't support credit card users. So, opening accounts and online kind of platforms becomes a barrier. There are ways that people are still navigating that and creating like multiple forms of reaching these kind of economies. So it's exciting, it's really it's exciting now Twitter is in Ghana. So also the tech is going you know it's coming to then it's almost like a flat land. Yeah. So it's exciting. One artist that I know Nana Dan so recently launched an NFT and it looks like he's soon amazing so there is that possibility of growth. That's I wanted to ask you I know that for you, perhaps the materials and how the materials interact with, you know, members of broader communities and how also the decay place in the, in the visual of the objects and the plasticity and all that. But would you be, do you see yourself being invested into non fungible tokens NFTs making your art, your 3d art into, you know, into NFTs. I mean, I, I'll be wrong to say yes or no, but because I mean I, I do not completely understand the NFTs now of course I need a lot of work to be done. I think there are aspects, if not my work as cultures, existing as NFTs, but there are numerous aspects that could exist. And that I would experiment with pretty soon, maybe next year. So there are aspects of documentation of even the reactions that could mean as photos, in that sense, could potentially be but like I said, I still need to understand the NFTs world and better to know to get my foot into it. And thank you very much for that. Just to open up another chapter perhaps before people that I'm put any questions up. How about you, is your work represented by any institutions in on the African continent or in the West, or is it perhaps space for the future where to get it involved or how do you see that. Is it important for you. I think, I think I would love for the for as many people to interact and engage with the work as much as possible. I mean, I wouldn't love that these only end in homes, which is beautiful, but then it gets to leave in places where there are dialogues. I guess written about it has like conversations around. And I mean, over the past to the gallery I've had a few institutions that, you know, like the Macau immoral call has a piece of mind so it leaves the show museum in in Nigeria also you know the work leaves there and a couple of other students I in this summer I completed a permanent installation with Facebook to their open arts commissions. So these are things that expands the reach of my you know for them to leave in other spaces that one I mean sometimes I might not even get a chance to be there to interpret or explain the work, but people would find ways to also engage in different forms. I mean, it would be a privilege to have my works in museums as many as possible. And I look forward to that I know it will happen some patients for that. I think it will be a beautiful thing when people can have conversations and engage with the work so I look forward to that happen. I'm sure you're still very young. So I'm sure that it's already happening it will happen a bit more. I'm sure. So it is a lot about exposure to the work isn't it. It's a lot about kind of how many audiences what the number of people can actually see it and interact with it. It's quite interesting point you made about your kind of offering an explanation or some kind of suggestions. What is behind the work what does it represent. How do you see that it may represent very different thing it may not be interpreted very different thing very differently by different audiences by by different different people are you happy about that. Do you see it as a restriction or do you see it as a as a beneficial. I mean, now they're like some pennies, of course I'm holding pennies that is maybe centuries before I was born. So the objects have already outlived me. It means that I there's no way I can be the only one to explain the work that has been made. There are instances that I've had people I remember if a number of years ago when I show the flag, I was standing by it and then I saw a lady explain an old lady explain the work that I have made to her grand, grand child, but I had never even I thought she was more brilliant than I am and I've had instances like that where people open up like areas that I have been not considered but because yeah I can only know much. That's brilliant that's brilliant so even artists can learn about his own or his or her own work through the eyes and mouth of the audiences that's brilliant. So, yeah we have two questions I mean if I if you may start with the first one so the question is, are the devaluated coins analogous to the exploitation of African people by the West. That's interesting. I kind of equate that or like relate that use of material. And to to the, the, that slavery, if he was referred or she was in your references that consider the penny, when it was made in the 1880s or, you know, 1800s was 100% copper in 1885 it became like 70% when the copper contents started depleting. And the question became that if we were to ask why it was when slavery or slave trade was abolished. So now labor became not free anymore. So to compromise value material became the subject that needed to be compromised. And since then the copper content has been reducing just so to match the value of a penny to the penny. I find I find that correlation almost similar to when the need for labor like I said, humans or people as humans. Almost were devalued to become objects of trade, tradeable objects in the same way that the penny which used to be almost valuable I believe that maybe 100 or 150 years ago that penny could buy a land and quite ironically I was told this story that one university was actually bought from a penny so a lady wrote a letter to Ford in, in request for money, and he gave them three pennies. So the lady bought granite or peanuts it's a story though, I cannot validate this but she bought peanuts planted it and then had a plantation over years, and then out of the plantation. She bought a new university out of that always cool out of that. So you know you can see the transformation of value through the very little but now on the streets of New York there are pennies thrown everywhere. Worthless. The opposite. Like black lives from West Africa, who were royals were collectors were intellectuals. When we were captured as slaves, then became almost nothing, you know strip naked and then now become objects of labor or machine working the cotton fields in West Virginia and all these things. I believe also the fact that the penny has that repetition of liberty, the repetition of Lincoln said, and if you are living in the US and you you consider the lives, or how the treatment of black people, even now, then you realize that that symbolism doesn't actually hold its meaning. In so many ways I picked these elements that correspond to the situation of black people. I mean, imagine in 2020, 2020, we fighting to be seen as human. And I mean, this is almost an absurd kind of request, you know, from, you know, people in this day and age to be fighting that oh, you know, you should see us as humans. Yeah, I think it's almost about the relationship of value. And that's why it's causing that and that's why I use currency. Turn it into another form. That's a very interesting metaphor you use that. Yeah, I mean, there are very important social issues which can be interpreted through your work and kind of look into it. I mean, here in the UK we have our own problem in this regards and the division between people is not going any, any smaller. Thank you very much for that. There's another question which is asking you if you could be so calm and please talk a little bit about the work hidden behind open walls. What inspired you to do the work. So, from, from the summer of 2020. Do you have a slide by the way so we can engage with the audience or you don't have a slide. That's fine, that's fine. So, from, from 2020, when I was ending my, my MFA, you know, we got shut down due to this pandemic and all of that. And then the protests and kind of activism started. It started bringing out almost like things that had been suppressed, you know, what we were on the streets of the US fighting for anything globally what people were kind of championing. They weren't new things to talk about segregation to talk about kind of racism. It's, it's nothing new. There's always been these elements that we battle with, not only for black people, but no minorities have always been battling with this. And I was trying to understand what then on one hand has been the hindrance for for this kind of liberation to happen or even concentration to be admitted. And because these are very vivid, I think these are very vivid social issues. And on the other hand, what if we looked at minorities differently. What if we, we, we, we, we build walls or like wall mass, and then your efforts is valid by the efforts not by who you are, or where you from. I was looking at it from these two parts where my work isn't seen as an African art, but it's seen as a purely chemical kind of global objects or global kind of conversation, and not because I'm a black man or I'm from Ghana. I was thinking about if we stripped away these kind of classisms or these kind of tags, what, what then do we find, find true humanity, perhaps like true exchanges. And that, that piece was quite dear to me because that's when I wish I had the image but that's when I started almost exploding steel. Very, very interesting. Thank you very much for that. If I may follow up on that on this, on these labels on these, on these categories which you just deconstructed and and challenged. How, how comfortable are you being, you know, represented in African art shows. Is that limiting with you do you see yourself as a transnational artist transglobal artists as Ghanaian artists as an artist as an American artist now. How would you classify yourself or is it necessary to classify one in one of these boxes. Thanks David. I'm an artist. I could be a sculptor I could be a painter I could be an installation I could be an activist. It depends on what I want to kind of respond to my own standards, and I have my own kind of trajectory, and I hope to the things that I believe in. I, and thankfully, I'm working with a gallery who allows me the freedom to do to be young. When I told my gallery is that I want to study in New York. There was no hesitation there was certain encouragement for me to go as poor. So, I've never felt I mean work with a gallery of course I've never felt that I have to be a Ghanaian, or I have to be an African, or now I have to start making things that kind of almost reflect New York. You know, and, and for that, I showed him in Dubai, and I think it allows some sense of consistency in my artistic practice, where I have to like change to meet demand. That's excellent. That's beautiful. And I know that there is not one formula for that but what would you what would be your advice, how would you advise young up and coming artists who would like to make it in the in the art world in the international global art world what would be the advice you would give him or her or how would you advise them. Well, that would be an advice to me myself. Well, you, you're already in that circulating into that in the, in that category. I think, I think David I, I believe in integrity. I think art world is so big that everybody will fit in. Because to some great extent it's a matter of taste, and everybody's differs so I just encourage myself and whoever wants to be at that I mean it's within us really. There's no way I can run out of making I can make every day I believe every other artist could also. So if we stick to what you believe in strongly and also keep your curiosity alive I mean there's no one way to be making. And you can't I mean be ambitious trial things, it might completely not sell. That's completely fine, because I, I think I've never, I've never made any work because it will sell. I've never, and I've never thought about that about that but you know sometimes, or even most times, they end up in good places. So it's purely if I had any advice myself be like just be yourself I mean it's a fake. But be honest with yourself and know your strength. Yeah and curious into exploring. So I think that's, that's brilliant answer, perhaps we can broaden up that integrity and honesty. It's the best way in any profession isn't it in any life. Yes, I think that advice myself. Great. And in terms of making, looking into material working engaging with material I know that for some time you've been working with coins you exploring steel you know fascinating with these types of material how they interact with outside forces perhaps with some with the wind in a, you know, interiors as well. Do you see yourself moving away from materiality of these subjects and working with, I don't know, textile flowers, whatever that might be. Do you have what's what's ahead, do you see any any material which you feel kind of challenged by and intrigued by How do I know, I mean, all of these happened by accident, it happened by curiosity. I think if I, if I know what I'm going to do in my studio I'll not go to the studio because then if I know specifically the kind of works that I want to be making in 10 years I'll retire and maybe teach somebody else how to make them. I don't, I really don't want to know. I just want to experiment and see how it goes. And I believe like one way means the other. And one project means the other and I love that I love to be a surprise like for the way to be a surprise to me as well. Absolutely I think that's a that's a very brilliant way how to look at it. I see very often. One of the issues and problems artists face as you know as they became more and more successful than the collectors are expecting pretty much the same work they've already seen because they conform to it they like the work. And also when artists comes up with something else would not as been expected for this brand new. They are disappointed because they want exactly what they've already seen. And that's the story of actually a huge piece that I made earlier on, and there was a curator who told me nobody's going to be able to buy this it's too big I was 15 by 10 foot. I think if a few weeks later, that's when Macau bought it. So, you know, it then tells me that you know I don't know I don't know what is going to happen to the work so you know you just open yourself up and make it and believe in it. Someone is asking how do you feel about the bank buying your work. I'm sorry. How do you feel about a bank like a financial institution a bank buying your work. Yes, and I think the World Bank has my work. Yeah, but it's an interesting kind of conversation to have the words that I'm giving out or taking stock on the wall. And I believe it expands the idea of value in itself. It expands the idea of exchange. I mean, you know, if more banks will work, but if the World Bank has, then maybe others would also. So there are no restrictions in terms of you not you do not judging on any levels. The clients who are buying. So we, we are very, we are very careful who the works we give to me. I would love for the West to end in spaces that could generate conversations the work. And then setting collections that are working, you know, next to some other makes meaning, you know, of course, imagine my work as long as I am having the work with David Hammons. I mean that means a lot. You know, then the work without me being present starts to like tap into a conversation that such artists had already made. It's not really about having sold out shows or like selling. It's really about building a career because I'm going to be an artist for life or however long I live. For instance, I can 50 years from now, of course, I can only imagine what my work will be worth. If I keep pushing that these ideas and being honest to myself. I think the gallery paces and we've even I sell from the studio like we pace and we are very aware of who the works are and understand, understand. And you may ask one more thing about the process of art making, let's say if we focus on one individual work. If we can generalize like that. How is the last stage to finishing stage do you is there a moment you know it's done and you can't touch it and you just shove it in a corner and run away or do you come back to it and you can't sleep and the next week again and maybe next month or how is the how do you finalize piece of work that you know it's done it's finished. So my my work usually doesn't have a starting point, because as we speak I still have coins that I'm treating. Sometimes I discover new textures I discover new forms, and that could be a starting point for one, sometimes identify a date. Sometimes I start one you know then I start researching and then the stories and you know contest comes in. But sometimes, you know, I could either feel that this is done. And then, you know, I wrap it because it wasn't successful. Sometimes I will feel like it's done and on my way home you know I do you turns and go back because another idea comes in the middle of the night, or maybe I'm asleep and I feel like not this this isn't work, you know it comes to take some parts of and feel something. It's not easy process. Not at all. It's a very difficult process to get the points in the Texas out and it's amazing. So it's very fluid, I must say. So it's a struggle all the way from the beginning to the end. Please struggle. Maybe like needed and I'll just snap a picture like okay. So there's another question from an audience. What an extent is your work influenced by a lot of three. LL has been a pace set. Not for me alone, but for every kind of artists growing in Africa, like West Africa, I could say, because he's gone in but he leaves and taught in Nigeria. It's a form I think as an artist, I don't know anybody who I could compare in terms of composition to his understanding of color, texture and even forms and even objects. I think it's brilliant that it will be only wise that anybody could learn from him. His skill and his ambition. It's inspiring. Because I wouldn't want to learn how he does that. I want to know why he does that. And I learned why he's doing that. He's very precious. And he understands his marks, his forms, his compositions and I think for me and maybe a million other artists globally, not only in Africa. It's only wise you can learn from him. Very wise words. Thank you. That's brilliant. I think we run out of questions from the audience. Maybe we can, unless there's anything, any closing remarks, anything that was left unset. Well, we pretty much said most. I'm sure maybe people have questions I'm always welcome, like always welcome to ask. And we have another opportunity. I'm here in London until next Friday. If you can't make it on Thursday, next Thursday, which is like December 16. You can send an email, I can meet you here, we can walk through together. And then if you also have an idea that I can learn from, you know, the history that you want to share with me and book or anything. I'm happy to do that. And I guess, finally, thank you to the audience who joined. Thank you, David, and thank you SOS for organizing this and having me here is a real pleasure privilege. Well, excellent. Thank you so much. First and foremost to you, you know, for being so kindly, you know, answering all these questions and sharing your work and thought process and your conceptual kind of stories as an artist. It's very, very exciting. Fingers crossed that people will be asking generations of us how influenced you were by her y'all and so on so far you'll be in a British Museum at the entrance to the Sainsbury galleries. I invite everybody again, please come and visit the website of the gallery in 1957. Come see the exhibition. It's going to be running for next week or so. And the week from now on the 16th. And this art talk or walk walk through with y'all. I think it's an amazing opportunity to discuss and share ideas and, as you can see, y'all is open to, to, to ideas and impulses so let's take advantage of it. You know, it'll be great. I'll be there for sure. I'll bring more students from SOS. Thank you very much. Thank you. Everybody who participated. Thank you to Center of African Studies. Thank you Angelica and hopefully see you soon. All right, see you soon. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you everybody.