 The 2020 census provides a snapshot of our nation, our population, where we live, and so much more. The results are critically important because this once a decade census data determines how federal funding is allocated to cities and communities that rely on it for social programs, infrastructure, and more. Completing the census in an age of misinformation poses challenges. With me today is DeVere Cohen, senior writer and editor focusing on immigration and demographics at Pew Research Center and Robert Santos, vice president and chief methodologist at the Urban Institute where he's an expert in social science and policy research. So first, what's the what's the what are the Pew trusts doing to try to help educate people in this time? We have a lot of interesting work going at Pew Research Center. We've been taking surveys of the population asking people what they know about the census and what they think about it. We just released one last week in which people said favorable things about the census. They'd heard of it. But there's also a lot of mistaken beliefs out there. For example, most people think there's a citizenship question on the census, which there is not. We're also writing blog posts. And my favorite thing is we've published something called a mini course. You sign up for five short emails written in plain English telling you all about the census, how it's done, its history, the challenges it faces, and what the data might show. So it's interesting when she says that a lot of people still think that there's a citizenship question. What are the implications of that? The implications are that because of the year-long citizenship fracas, there's been fear instilled into the immigrant community and the Latinx community. And that fear does not go away simply with the declaration by the Supreme Court. We expect that that's going to have a risk of non-performance or non-participation by the Latino population. And what kind of under-representation or what kind of hesitation do we see already in that community? Already there are expressions in the community of individuals questioning the use of the census data, how it's going to be used. There are efforts being made to try to get the message out that the data will not be used in that capacity, however, it's an uphill struggle. This is traditionally something that is supposed to be just raw numbers. We're not talking about politics here. We're talking about a relatively simple idea, who are you, where you're from, etc. But when politics creeps into it, or even history, let's say if you were one of the DACA recipients and you decided to register and all of a sudden here you are finding that perhaps that wasn't your best interest long-term, how does that complicate all of these things? Well, really the census face is a long-term challenge in counting what they call hard to count populations. So it's not just the immigrants that we're focusing on today, but also communities of color. Our own survey work showed that black adults and Latino adults were less likely to say they were going to participate in the census than other groups, young adults, many of whom who haven't taken a census before are less willing to say they're going to participate. So this has been a challenge the Bureau has faced for decades, and they're hoping that they're going to be able to do a better job this time, and we'll see. And if somebody says, listen, these are rounding errors. What's a quarter of a percent under count mean? What's one percent? What are the real ripple effects of that? Well, it's funny that folks say that the last, the 2010 census was how did to be the most accurate ever within a few hundreds of a percent of the total population. However, that masked the fact that there was an over count of certain populations, like white and elderly, while there was an under count of Latinx population, Asian Americans, African Americans, people who rent the hard to count populations that we just discussed. And because of that, the implications are that within states and within communities, the minority areas or neighborhoods, communities that are underrepresented tend to get less than they deserve, based on a true count, while other communities get more than they deserve. And when we look at this kind of in the long term and in Pew Research, you've been doing these things for a long time, thinking, have people's attitudes toward the census changed? The census every 10 years has a knowledge struggle, because what do you remember from 10 years ago? Do you remember that you filled out your form or not even? So they have to get people educated. And we find that the same kinds of mistaken beliefs persist. For example, 10 years ago, we did a survey. We asked, is the census required by law? Many people thought it wasn't. Most people, in fact, and the same thing is still true today. So each time it's like the wave comes in again and washes away the footprints in the sand and they have to start again. It's a persistent problem. We're at a journalism conference and we were just talking off-camera. You're having trainings for journalists because newsrooms look different every 10 years. And not everybody remembers covering the last census if they have done it. That's right. This is my fourth census, I will say. First two as a journalist and second two with Pew Research. But you find a unicorn when you find a journalist who's covered more than one. Not to mention multiple ones. And of course, what's going on in journalism these days with all the turnover and new journalism organizations coming on, there are a lot of folks who've never done it before. So there's a lot of training going on out there by multiple groups, including the Pointer Institute, whose workshops I've been doing. But also the IRE journalism organization Reveal is doing something. There's a group called News Counts that's matching up academics and press people funded by Knight Foundation. So there's a lot going on out there and we'll see whether it meets the need. We flicked at it. But the climate of misinformation or disinformation, how much of an impact does that have? And what kinds of, if you've got any anecdotal evidence or examples of how are people, well, purposefully steered or misguided when they see information about the census that could be really impactful in their lives? It's a big problem because most folks nowadays get their news and information from social media. And because of that, the opportunity and the risk of infusing misinformation into those venues heightens the risk that people are going to come away with misperceptions about what's really going on in the world. Now, Pugh just did a survey on misinformation, correct? So you should work and discuss some of the results. Yeah. That's not so much my area, but I do know that for journalists, there's a balancing act. You don't want to feed the flames by saying, there's this information out there specifically this, but it's wrong because there's some concern that that might fuel people's memories in the wrong direction. So as I understand it, and it's, again, not my area. You don't want to amplify a bad signal in the first place, right? That's right. Right. And it's also, I mean, it seems that all you need is a kind of a shred of truth somewhere in there, and you could wrap it around something and say, hey, if you get this in the mail, you're automatically going to be targeted or et cetera, you know, burn this. You know, camouflage misinformation in the guise of truth. For example, there were letters that were sent out by a certain political party that appeared to look like official Census Bureau documents. Even on blue paper. Right. And so there are many ways that misinformation manifests, and the results can be pretty bad. So are you optimistic? You know, every census is a high-risk endeavor, inherently so, because it's the only thing we ask everybody to do in the United States. And so, and it's complicated as our society has gotten more complicated and as people have gotten more fatigued and unwilling to answer surveys. So it's a high-wire act just to describe it really. Previous censuses have had big, you know, problems leading up to them. I could go into them if you want, but just suffice to say that every census has something that comes up that everybody thinks is going to sink it. Who knows? So cautiously optimistic. I'll just say that in the research that we did at the Urban Institute, we took the magnificent performance, purportedly, of the 2010 census, superimposed that performance level on a 2020 population. And we saw an undercount. And so we're a bit cautious about that. The problem, not the problem is, the beauty is that the United States is becoming a more diverse population. But the more diverse population tends to include the people that are hard to count. And so there is a real challenge on the Census Bureau's hands. We are doing all we can to make sure that everybody gets counted, that we convince that we try to engage grassroots efforts, peer to peer, to get people to understand that it's okay to participate and that they deserve to be counted. And so that's what that's, we're right now just focused on trying to get the count out. Okay. Bob Santos from the Urban Institute, DeVaricole from, DeVaricole and from Pew Research. Thanks so much for joining us. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.