 Welcome, everybody. Hiori Tato. I'm Vincent Herringer and welcome to this fourth episode of our series O Tato Nahiri, produced by Pure Advantage and Tanei's Tree Trust. The webisodes are being hosted by our friends at the Edmund Hillary Fellowship. In today's webinar, we'll be looking at the non-timber advantages of native forests with three-panel experts, Dr Jackie Amers, a forestry scientist, ecologist and research analyst, Edna Walker, a PhD student from the University of Waikato, who is looking at the applications of kaitiakitanga in an urban setting. And our third speaker, we really hope is going to be here soon. He is having some internet issues, is Hal Davis Davies, who leads Auckland Council's Urban Nahiri program. Please remember that we're really happy to take your questions. Use the Q&A box on Zoom and also check that chat window as we'll be adding more information and links there as we're talking. We have Bell over here. We have Simon, I think, calling in from Dunedin, maybe even in Vicargal, who's managing the chat. We're putting up links and other material. We're finishing at 7.30, but of course there's a ton of great material on our website at pureadvantage.org. And you can follow us on social on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter. And of course, we'll be here next Tuesday. So let's just have a quick look at the poll who was turned up, kind of similar to last week. About 40% of you are foresters and farmers, a small number this time from science and academia. So we're going to be keeping it nice and simple, you academic types, Jackie and Edna. And then a nice mix of other. Always curious about who is in the other. And it looks like a good number of people have been reading the material on the website. So the advertisements are working. Thank you for doing that. And I hope you found them really interesting. And then look at that. A good number, 40% haven't read anything at all. So you'll discover a ton of material there that's really interesting. Lots of different perspectives from foresters, academics, ecologists, from Iwi point of view, from a commercial point of view, from a government point of view, lots to discuss. And then a nice mix too. It looks like quite a few of you know about this idea of continuous cover forestry, which is, I suppose ultimately, you know, the big idea that we're hoping to bring to New Zealand is that we're not being practised in many other countries, particularly in Europe, but we think could well apply here for our native forests. I think that we probably are not going to be joined by Hal at this stage. So I'd like to introduce you to our two panellists, Dr Jackie Amers and Edna Walker, both of whom have contributed to writing articles in the Otato and the Heady website. If you haven't read those, they're going to be put into the chat now as they introduce themselves. So first let me start with you, Edna, welcome. Tell us a little about yourself and what interests you in native forests? Kia ora koutou. My name is Edna Walker. I am a PhD student here at the University of Waikato. I grew up in Whangarei on the outskirts in a place called Otaka Valley. And that's probably one of the key reasons for why I care for native forests. So we have a small forest behind our homestead in Otaka. And so for me, I really want to provide my whānau, my nieces, nephews and future generations the same opportunities that I had in engaging with native forests. I've recently just submitted my PhD thesis. So I'm very fresh with ideas and contributions to this area. I'm amazed actually that you can even stand talking about it because everyone that does a PhD tells me it's absolutely exhausting. The last thing you want to do is talk about your PhD, obviously motivated, which is great. Edna, thank you. Jackie, tell us a little bit about yourself. Kia ora, and congratulations, Erin, on submitting your dissertation. That's awesome. I am a trustee of Tane Street Trust. I am a forest scientist and an ecologist and a research analyst. And I have a deep love for our native forest. I've always been with me right from when I was very young and I keep very much about our nahiri. So that's me. I'm passionate. And I also think it's really important that people have the opportunity to connect with nature, particularly our indigenous species. I mean, that passion really comes out through the movie that you were in. I know that you don't like seeing yourself on screen, but for those of you who haven't watched the film, which is now, I think, on TV and Zed, on demand, but it's also on our website. And Jackie is in the movie. And actually, you get the honour of doing the outro credits, don't you, Jackie? I think you're asked the question, what is your favourite tree? Yes, yes. So I started my career working in Kaiketea Forest and they are deep in my heart and soul. And I spent a lot of time deep in Swamp Order, going through to Kaiketea Forest. And I had a lot of magic moments, but that's our rarest species. And it's missing from a lot of our landscapes. We've got less than 2% of the original cover remaining. So it's probably our most threatened, one of our most threatened forest ecosystems. Yeah. In the last three episodes, we've looked at some of the challenges that exist for expanding our nahiri. And we had a couple of big, gnarly questions like, where would you plant it? Where would the land come from? We also discussed last week, not just where would the land come from, but how do you expand the existing estate? How do you help restoration and recovery? The theme of this episode today is really talking about what are the advantages, particularly the non-timber advantages. And Jacqui, I wonder if you could start. I know that you have written extensively on this. And I believe that you're also about to submit another paper or a summary with Tane's tree trust. So maybe you could take us through, what are, outside of timber, the main advantages that having a healthy nahiri provides us? There is an enormous variety, myriad of benefits. They include non-timber forest products, including some of the important cultural, like the traditional Wenison, Rongawa, and natural pharmaceuticals. There's honey. Honey forest is absolutely critical to our honey industry, and New Zealand is the biggest honey exporter, second largest honey exporter in the world. Our native species provides all the early season nectar flow that's vital to our honey industry. There are environmental services that are incredibly important, carbon sequestration, the production of oxygen, the very air that we breathe, clean water, erosion prevention. The list is huge, of course, by a diversity, and that's very, very important with our native forests. They are such an important habitat for all our indigenous species. And there are cultural values and spiritual values that are so important to us that are very difficult to try and quantify. It's basically valuing the invaluable. This includes our international reputation. It includes our sense of identity and who we are, Tarangawaewae. Our recreation, it's the ambient environment that we do as New Zealanders. And it's really, really critical in our urban areas as well, as Erema will be talking about. That is a great summary, thanks, Jackie. It's almost as if you've written the paper on it. I wonder if we could drill into some of these in particular. Let's talk about the spiritual component, the cultural component. The bit that, as you say, is it's impossible to quantify, but anyone that can't see the value has rocks in their head. And for us as a people in New Zealand to have this connection to the land, and particularly for Māori, do you want to just tell us about the connection to Ngahere and what that means for Māori? And then maybe what that might mean for us as a kind of a new nation that's still discovering itself. Yeah. I think for Māori, our connection to forests is actually established and maintained through our cultural narratives. So, a lot of our storytelling, a lot of our stories about the creation of the world, capture that spiritual connection and those cultural values that are inherent in that connection to Ngahere. I think for wider Aotearoa, New Zealand, is that that opportunity to connect to our Ngahere through those cultural narratives is open to everyone. So, understanding your connection to the places you might call home, the new forests around your area, you can understand it a bit more strongly through some of the cultural narratives that exist within different areas. So, you have the broader narratives about Tāne Mahuta and the creation of the world, about specific sites, forest sites around Aotearoa as well. So, yeah, there's many ways to establish that spiritual connection. Well, give us an example. And maybe even something that's close to home where you are now in the Waikato or maybe from your home. Yep. So, for myself, because I grew up in Whāngarei, it's a little bit more difficult for people who move into new tribal boundaries to understand how we connect to those spaces. And so, for me, using how I would engage in Ngahere back home, so being respectful of the place, learning about different ancestors that existed in my home spaces of Whāngarei, taking that same process and applying it in Hamilton has allowed me to understand stories around te kīngitanga, the rōpatu and those kinds of stories that Hāmitan to recognise the importance of these sites and the resources in these forest areas to hapū and community. So, it's just really about learning about the spaces that we live in and the narratives and the stories of those areas. One of the things that's happening at the moment is that a new appreciation of the... I suppose the connection to nature that we can learn from indigenous cultures. When you do your work, particularly looking in an urban setting, what are beyond Māori that, you know, what kind of experiences or insights might apply to the wider population? And I'm thinking particularly, say, in an urban setting. Yeah, I think for urban spaces, so there are different values and concepts that indigenous communities utilise throughout the world. And I think drawing on those different processes that they use to connect to nature in urban spaces can be valuable for even non-indigenous people. And I think that experience of being transient moving in and out of urban spaces can provide a new process for connecting to urban nature but also to forest areas as well. You know, it's kind of visceral, isn't it, the experience of walking through a forest. But in your PhD, what have you learned about the connection that nature has, I don't know, physiologically or emotionally on people? Yeah, so within my thesis a lot of my participants talked about the different ways that they connected. So it wasn't just about that physical work that they would go out and collect or harvest or forage different resources but it was also about undertaking other cultural practices such as karakia, karanga, waiata that captured that relationship. So I think in terms of connecting to nature in urban spaces, it takes different mechanisms to encourage that connection and to maintain that connection especially within those modernised spaces. Did you find that the same effect was able to be generated by just having kind of sounds ridiculous a relationship with a tree as opposed to a forest? I guess the question is how important is it that in urban areas we develop clusters of trees, pockets of sort of mini forests? Yeah, I think if you look at it, one tree is just one fornonga, so that's just one relative. And from a very Māori perspective, you need the support of the community. So I think creating these forest areas allows that form of connection to really grow and flourish. You can create a connection to one relative, one fornonga, but it's more beneficial to create that stronger, holistic connection, and that's where trees and forests in urban spaces provide their value and benefit. We're going to welcome Hal Davies. Welcome Hal. Glad you're back to join us. Hal leads the Urban Nahedi program for Auckland City and so you've got some insight into the way people engage with Nahedi in a urban setting, but one question before we sort of explore that, how we'd love to know how you got those big pahutakawa right down into Queen Street or the bottom of Queen Street. Well they were planted as seedlings some 40 years ago and so we've just basically, I guess, acted as a kaitiaki and cared for them in that process and rather than see them succumb to the chainsaw with the most recent developments in Key Street pushed pretty hard to have them dug up and moved. So yeah, quite a challenging and certainly very nerve-wracking exercise on times. All done in the dead of night. I was down there last night until 3am. We've just finished planting the last two that have come back into Key Street. So yeah, it's not the first time we've done something like that but certainly one of the more memorable transplanting experiences I've been involved with in my career. Tell us about this, how big the root area needs to be. I'm not quite sure how to describe it but what physically needs to happen to that tree for it to survive. To be honest, Vincent, in terms of there is an actual formula and I don't want to share industry secrets around that because there are people that make a living out of that in terms of We want more people to transport their healthy trees. Yeah, I don't really want to share somebody else's work in that space but it's really around the calibre of the trunk in relation to the size of the trees. So there is a formula that's applied so if you have a one-metre circumference trunk you might be looking at a root ball that might be somewhere in the region of around three metres in circumference. So shifting a tree Pahooda Kaewa is probably one of the easier species in New Zealand. There are certainly some much more challenging and much more difficult tree species that are very sensitive to root disturbance but Pahooda Kaewa have that fantastic ability to fall off cliffs and land on beaches and carry on growing. So a stigging them up is actually not that I guess it's stressful. I've not seen many lost through that process. I'd say the strike rate is probably around 75 to 80% success rate if it's done properly. The ones that we moved on Key Street the average sort of size I guess the trees are in that sort of 10 to 12 metre in height with about a 15 metre canopy spread their average weight lifted is somewhere in the region between 12 and 20 tonnes. That's something else. I think it'd be fair to say that not many Aucklanders would know that we have an urban forestry strategy that you have written. Do many people are they surprised when they meet you and how hard has it been for you to argue for a forestry strategy for the city? I think in terms of arguing for it the council was ready the time was right I think the removal of the RMA and some of the other major changes that were going on and sort of forced to council's hand but certainly we were heading down that direction I mean I've been with Auckland City Council and now Auckland Council in five different roles now for 19 years and I've seen two possibly three tree plans come through internally but never make it to the public so the appetite's always been there I think in terms of awareness is a growing awareness to be honest I mean this being able to provide an article to the peer advantage group has been a huge boost for myself in the sense of getting some profile out there encouraging people to think about what is urban tree cover I've spoken at a number of conferences both within the Arbicultural Association about the work that I've been doing and at Green Pavelover as well which are parks and recreation open space conference so I think the awareness is certainly growing I've had a lot of interest from other cities now around New Zealand Christchurch is busily in the process of writing one and I know Wellington is in the same boat Tauronga is heading down that same track so I think it's we're the leader of the pack in some senses but it's something I would think that most big urban centres in New Zealand really do need some kind of strategy to give people a bit of a direction I think so Sorry, let me carry on We're very good at planting and walking away is quite a common thing that you've probably experienced in the horticultural world I mean for me what we're trying to encourage people to think about is that trees take time, there's investment required for it to be successful we need to put some energy into it and the more energy we put in the better the benefits that we get out of it so it's a really positive equation if you look at it in that sense because trees don't generally bring harm to us if you want to look at it that way most of the things they do for us provide habitat we improve our livability our connectivity to nature so there's a whole range of things that trees do and I think for me the strategy is just highlighting those What is the state of our forest in Auckland the senses that has been in decline particularly since 2012 when there was a change to the RMA that allowed people to cut down large trees I'm just pleased to say in the report that more than a million trees have been planted since 2017 so in your assessment in your audit were you able to get a sense of just how much canopy cover there is in Auckland Yeah I guess to sort of clarify that our work at the moment is looking at urban tree cover within what's called the Metropolitan Urban Limits of Auckland Auckland's broken up geographical area as I'm sure you're aware we stretch you know from Wellsford to Bombay that encompasses 21 local boards now and so of the 21 local boards 16 of them fall within what we call the Metropolitan Urban Limits and the tree canopy cover within that area there is I guess what we call that sort of tune that goes on where trees are cut down and trees are growing the metrics that we're measuring is basically picking up any tree that's over 3 metres in height using lidar and I guess in terms of the general trajectory what we're observing is that we are growing our urban forest so in terms of the extent of canopy cover is growing certainly more this way but decreasing this way so what we're finding is that we're losing much more of the larger height category trees so in most cases now of the 16 local boards that we've looked at most of them have got less than 1% of their tree canopy cover is made up by trees over 30 metres in height was it you that talked about shrubboobs that's right so I've coined a little bit of a term going forward shruburbia is what we're creating by cutting down all of our large trees and you know in a lot of cases the amount of space that we're left with within intensification doesn't enable us to plant large growing trees so you know there's certainly some really great examples of where we've intensified development on a site landscape architects run amuck no offence to the industry they do a fantastic job but on times I think they forget that trees actually do grow when they planted and we see lots of instances of you know really it's a real pity in my view that we see these fantastic sort of urban developments going on and we get them planting things like London Plain trees in a 1m wide grass verge which is just going to cause no end of problems for us going forward so you know really trying to promote that we need to be thinking a lot more about planting the right trees in the right places and if that means that we're going to plant many more small trees I don't think that's a bad thing in some senses because you know we don't we don't have the space to plant big trees on private land Auckland Council is a very big landowner and a lot of the plantings that we do on our public estates are planting trees that will eventually grow into a large specimen so there's a balance that we're trying to address there obviously you talk about the million trees program that was something that our mayor came in on his first term of the election and now he's running a second program so we're looking this time around to plant 1.5 million trees over the next three years Jackie we just talked about the Kahikati are being absent from our our land and you know there is our tallest tree how practical is it to imagine that we could grow big lovely tall culties and tortures and Kahikati is in an urban setting have you seen it and do you have any advice about how that could be done well there are some parts in our cities where we do have large large trees I mean in Christchurch and it's mentioned in Colin Merck's article the forest in Rickerton which has got beautiful big Kahikati and that was because of someone's vision someone had a vision to protect that forest so the people of Christchurch who lived near there they benefit incredibly from that tall forest and it's the big trees that give the biggest benefits and it's the big trees that when they are lost that people grieve the most those are the trees that people identify with the trees that people love the trees that people have a relationship with and they provide the most benefits do you mean in some of the things that you mentioned like carbon sequestration biodiversity habitat and so on yes particularly for biodiversity for providing shade for intersecting heavy rainfall which is good in terms of storm water for intersecting pollution for providing shade and really ameliorating making more pleasant the local environment like in Brisbane which is probably the leafiest city in the world where they've got their urban forest retained they have 7% lower temperatures 7 degrees Celsius lower temperatures which is really quite major in a city where it's basically subtropical so that really shows the difference that large trees can make to the urban environment which is even more critical now as we come in we've been impacted more by climate change let's explore this right tree right place and look at it from two points of view perhaps Edina when you've looked at the I suppose the responsibility that comes or is implied in that word kaitiaki tanga have you seen models of management or ways of looking after little clusters of forest that I don't know might provide lessons for other parts of New Zealand I think within the practice of harvesting rungoa that's a a clear model for looking after trees and so just like what Hal was talking about the lifespan of the trees is what's considered when you harvest rungoa so it's not just about harvesting the leaves or the sections of the tree it's about ensuring that the longevity of their plant is taken care of from trimming it from clearing around it and protecting it and so again I think there are models within this framework that can help support that type of thinking and that type of care for our trees and our native species Hal, where are you unpack that right tree, right place idea and how that might apply and this is probably you describing what's in your strategy I imagine it's just one of the principles that we've applied in there I think it's sort of come from the willy-nilly or unorganised planting that we have done and in some cases we've planted definitely the wrong trees in the wrong places and they cost local authorities a lot of money to manage we have significant liability issues with some of the tree issues that we have to deal with and I guess sort of out of that the strategies really trying to give I guess myself and others that are looking at managing urban forest clear direction on some of the thinking so we talk about managing the whole life cycle of our tree asset which I think a lot of people don't realise is a really important thing we manage physical assets in terms of pipes and infrastructure trees need the same things they need inspections, they need maintenance they need to be pruned away from street lights road signs, canopy lifted over the roads or vehicles don't hit them so it's a reasonably complex process that we go through to manage our trees and most people don't interact with that I know most of the trees that we prune in the CBD for example Auckland Central City is all done at night so a lot of people don't actually see the work that we do in terms of nurturing maintaining trimming really trying to get the best out of our assets I guess we're looking at the sense of we're trying to really keep going back to that term of Kaitiaki we really are the guardians we really want to show that we have got the best interests of the public and the best interests of our urban forest is front of mind for us and I think I've been involved in having to remove some really stunning trees that caused significant damage and if only we planted that tree in the right place and not decided to plant it right next to a sidewalk that's next to an apartment building that's got a basement car park that we find tree roots growing through the car park 25 years later there's nothing we can do about that so unfortunately the tree has to be removed so I think there's I've learnt my lesson the hard way unfortunately as I said in a bit of a chat before we started the session I mean unfortunately as a trained arborist and an urban forester I mean I love planting trees but I'm involved in removing and killing them as well so that's an important part unfortunately we do have to make some tough decisions and I think that the right tree in terms of unpacking it a little bit I guess it's looking at what is the tree we all fall into that trap of going to a nursery, a garden centre we look at the label and it says that the tree is going to grow to 5 metres in most cases the labelling that we see in garden centres is probably only talking about the first 10 years of the tree's life when I've seen carry labelled with a size of 8 metres on them which we know is just ridiculous but it sells plants doesn't it it's just you know people don't look at the amount of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide that's produced by their car they look how fast it goes and how much fuel it uses so it's kind of just looking at it in a different sense so if we're going to plant trees we want them to be one we want them to be healthy and vigorous and suitable for the environment and obviously you know taking desert trees trees from high altitudes and trying to grow them in Auckland is not the greatest we've got a very wet maritime climate so we need to recognise that the Albertanic Gardens is a great little programme they've got what's called its star performers programme and so what they've done over the years is they've trialled a huge range of plants and they look at you know roses for example what roses can you grow without needing to use chemicals and without using to use sprays what fruit trees can you grow that produce high quality fruit and are less susceptible to you know fire blight and those sorts of things so it's really about you know what is the tree you know how big does it grow where are you going to plant it and a lot of people fall into the trap of you see a huge tree with a massive you know amazing canopy above the ground that same architecture exists below the ground in terms of the trees root system and root structure What commitment is there out there for planting natives as opposed to exotics and maybe look at it questions say from an urban authority point of view is Auckland Council and maybe Jackie you could or Edina as well are councils committed to planting and nurturing natives over and above exotics Would you like me to start I'd say from an Auckland Council perspective yes most definitely when we've had our engagement with and development of the urban nairi strategy with mana fennawad that was one of the key principles that we talked about is our preference for native is the terms that we use so when we look at our tree selection our first preference should always be looking at a native species but obviously in certain situations there are there is that right tree right place and you know solar access for people winter sunlight those sorts of things do become an issue that we do look at Jackie are you noticing a commitment to native trees Yes I think there's been a cultural winter sense here in New Zealand Maori culture Restore the biodiversity and then in more urban areas you know our selection is a little bit wider I guess we do look at you know where exotic trees for example may be more suitable where they do lose their leaves and where we can provide solar access but again it's going back to those you know how does the tree grow what does it look like what are the key benefits and what are the key attributes that it has Jackie Yeah I think New Zealanders are growing more and more of their own identity and that includes what they plant and what they value and that's something that I really noticed after spending five years overseas and coming back in 1993 and I've seen that increase and we've got so many people and I'm going to do a big shout out to those people who are involved in restoration programs and land care groups urban restoration groups they're doing incredible jobs and they're absolutely inspiring and it does something for the soul it does something for communities I've seen it personally I've seen a twin brother who's autistic and he's been involved for the last 13 years in a natural restoration projects in the need and through the Shetland Street nursery restoration program which is based on a marae and I've seen so many people pulled together and working together and the joy that they have they've done spectacular things in restoring what had been swampy land that should never have been had the trees removed and now they're taking houses off and a field that it got too boggy because basically it needed that forest and that wetland there and it was taken away and the hydrological services were disrupted so now they've restored a major part of the kakarai up history but that's just one example there are so many around New Zealand and yes I think as a people we're embracing more and more the things that are special to who we are as New Zealanders and that includes native trees and also everything that comes along with that native birds and other species I mean I've got an adopted nephew who's massively into wetlands and stick insects and he is finding them of course in urban areas in Wellington and I think the younger generation are even more I think inspired and partly this is through the education system to connect with nature connect with nature and our own heritage our own natural heritage that's interesting I wonder if there is a link between discovering New Zealand native forest and also rediscovering our indigenous culture yeah I think I support what Jackie just shared about the growing interest in Māori culture in my research on Kaitiakitanga there were many non-Maori who knew what Kaitiakitanga who were trying to actively practice it and we were really interested in the cultural values and the cultural concepts and so I think that has a part to play in how we value native forests and native species and another point in my research was that there were a lot of our participants going out and collecting those native species and we're engaging with them so I think really supporting what Jackie shared previously is that people are starting to value our native species but also the cultural knowledge that comes with those native species as well and I think that can contribute immensely to people's connections to nature in general but also to those forests in different areas I want to change the topic a little bit in your article you talk about access and it raises an interesting question of privilege you quote a number of people in Melbourne 340,000 people had limited or no access to parklands within a 5km radius of their time during lockdown I'm sure that that statistic must repeat itself in New Zealand cities I think even just looking at the Auckland Urban Ngahere strategy the canopy cover differs from within the different areas in Auckland so for low income areas or towards South Auckland they have limited tree canopy cover so that's just a real clear example of some of the inequities that exist with access to urban forests and to urban nature more general in a more general sense and even in my own research there were discussions shared from my participants about the limited access that they had to different species to different food species and so they were relying on their own networks to really bring those resources into urban spaces so there are many challenges to access that can attributed to age to our abilities to access to mobility and so on so yeah it's a can of worms really very interesting isn't it how you would notice this especially with your sort of overview of the entire city just how little canopy cover there is in South Auckland you don't even need to go and you know pay for expensive LiDAR you just need to drive around the suburbs around Otara Apatoe, Manarewa, Mangaree you'll see that you know we have street after street after street of vacant grass virges very little planting even on private properties and I think that's you know down to that socio-economics as well and I think to be fair you know the smaller local councils that we used to have before the super city was formed some of the councils you know Waitakere City Council Auckland City Council had quite pro-activity planting programmes you know a lot of street tree planting went on through the 80s and the 90s and unfortunately those areas of South Auckland have lagged way behind obviously a lot of people don't realise Tamaki around Point England a great example that you know large areas of Point England, Gleninus Panmure are actually owned by Housing New Zealand or you know Kaingora and no planting at all no planting at all on those properties and so it's really noticeable now when you look from an aerial that you know we're and to be fair you have to point the finger at the state you know if the state is going to house people they need to house people with good living standards simply planting a few trees around properties would have made a huge difference to those areas and you know would provide benefits for many decades to come I think the Kaingora is really bought into that now they realise that you know tree planting is very important they need to create sustainable and liveable communities and providing that connection to nature helps that so you know the wheels are turning slowly in the right direction I think that you know some of these bigger development entities are now starting to look at planting but there's a lot to do to be honest you know if you look at Kaipātaki that's got 30% canopy cover and you look at Otara that's got 8 that's a huge difference you're talking about hundreds of thousands of trees that we need to plant to even get close to bringing that canopy cover up so you know it's it's a really interesting canopy challenging but I think we need to encourage people to think positively you know the more that they can do the more that we plant the more that we can get schools involved with you know understanding the value of our native trees and our the more that we're going to see positive outcomes you know the mayors million trees a lot of the planting that we did through that programme was through volunteers we've had some great questions come in and I've got one here from Adam Forbes, Dr Adam Forbes who was on our show last week and he's just asking Jackie in particular is there scope for people to think broader than just Manuka and Kanuka regarding honey hang on I pressed the wrong button you know the questions disappeared but I think possibly because Jackie's answered it but tell us now Jackie what is the answer to that question? Yes I just wish I could dash away to my cupboards and pull out some really unique honey that's been produced in other where it is. We'll take your word for it Jackie. Yeah yeah so there are some very unique honeys that are produced in New Zealand and it would be really good to have a higher profile this is something this is an industry that has got so many benefits you know you're using intact forest forest doing a sustainable industry and yeah honey is good for you and it's good. So yeah there's many of our species that are good for honey and there's a real opportunity to profile some of the antique industries and the unique honeys that our country has and raise the profile of them I mean we've got manuka honey of course and that's raised the profile of honey in New Zealand but we've got more than manuka honey. Indeed I had a karaka vodka the other day and I can attest so that was excellent a little bit so I can remember another question here from Robin Simcock saying a million seedlings planted in public land in Auckland but do we have any data this is probably for you Hal do we have any data on how many have successfully established to the age of three or five and observation is that many of the seedlings planted on public land have not yet established their trunks have been damaged by mowers and weed eaters by cars trailers big bins and in many cases no money was spent to ensure that their soil was de-compacted. Great question thank you Robin great to hear your passion out there Robin and I share horror stories around some of the damage that we see by you know mowers and weed eaters etc on suburban street trees it's quite distressing on times a lot of I mean in some cases and I guess I'm just looking generally here a lot of the planting that we did through the mayors million trees program was in regional parks and was in local parks where those sorts of issues aren't so challenging so we're looking a lot of the planting was revegetation you know small seedlings one and two litre grades the areas are then maintained in a slightly different way they're generally not mown whereas the issues that Robin is talking about is more the I guess community based plantings where we have individual standalone trees planted in our reserves it is incredibly challenging and I'm the first one to put my hand up and say it's very frustrating on times to be involved in plantings to then see them trashed by our own contractors that are serving another part of the maintenance contract in terms of mowing grass I know kiwis love their lawn mowers and they love their Saturday morning lawn mowing and all of that stuff that goes along with it but to me mowers are one of the biggest enemies of trying to establish trees within urban areas and the weed eater is just absolutely devastating I've got thousands of photographs if I'm honest with you of the damage that's been done to trees both young and old by mowers mowers and weed eaters and leaves little bits of plastic wherever it goes exactly it's not good I think we need to change our habits there to be honest we need to invest more in looking after what we plant it goes with what you were saying around tree intelligence at the same time as having some tree intelligence to have intelligence about how to look after the environment that they sit in wouldn't it be great to be rid of lawns? Paula Warren so I'm a botanist and an artist I want native trees to be used in restoration but I also want my city to have natives and to have an arboretum where I can see a wide range of trees, collect fruits, coloured leaves for collage, needles, weavings and so on and I want to see an urban arboretum labeled so I can work out what trees they are and this goes to this kind of falling back in love with trees doesn't it and maybe Edina this is one for you there are so many more things we can do with trees than just look at them we could you talked about the Rongana and also about the indigenous arts that might come from re-engaging with forests what ways are you seeing people I suppose re-engage with them at an artistic and at a medicinal level so I think one of the core principles for kaitiakitanga is about the use and engagement of resources so it's really encouraged that people go out and use other cultural practices to engage with the different tree species in their areas and some of the findings from my research have shown that people are using them using plant species for rungua for medicines for weaving for food for carving and so on and so it's not only the native species that we're seeing people collect but they're also incorporating new things that are highly aligned with environmental and sustainable practices so we're using materials to produce new forms of art and weaving so it's really clear from my research that people are really thinking ahead about not only sustaining those native species but how to use the materials that we don't really like in our ecosystem such as plastics and so on to create those art forms. Question here and this opens up a different area of discussion as well from Keith Dark maybe how this is one for you, how do you deal with power lines that are at a high risk for your urban planting? It's a great question in terms of tree selection obviously we are looking at applying more with that right tree right place we're a lot more fortunate now in terms of a lot of the development that we deal with in more suburbia the power lines are actually put underground so a lot of supplies are now in the the foot paths or in the grass verges we've got a that now encourages utilities to be put in their own separated berm well away from where we would use as a tree planting so encouraging those sorts of principles looking forward in terms of how do we manage what we currently have we may look to grow smaller plants smaller growing species underneath power lines we do what's called channel pruning so we prune the middles out of trees to try and provide services it's very challenging fire risk is not generally a huge issue that we have to deal with in Auckland our temperate maritime climate doesn't normally present too many issues around fire we do have the odd instances of trees catching fire around power lines in the white hukarys which is obviously one of our biggest challenges one of vectors biggest challenges is managing the power lines where they run through the much more native forest a lot harder to get to generally speaking though it's a challenging one that we try and encourage the power authorities to look at what other options are there there's things called ABC now which is an aerial bundled cable which rather than your three cables running individually they are now in one cable which reduces the amount of trimming that we need to do for trees we've got a pretty good work in relationship with vector and counties their main priority is to provide power to citizens and as we all know when the power goes out people aren't happy and if trees are responsible trees get a little bit of a bad name there's a definite sort of tension between tree owners and power line owners has been for many decades I think it's something that we really need to just get on with accept the fact that we need trees in urban areas accept the fact that we need power lines and accept the fact that we've got skilled people that can manage them to grow I guess not hand in hand because they can't touch each other but at least grow collaboratively so from my side of things fire risk is really very very low I've only come across a couple of instances of trees being on fire with power lines but as I say mostly in rural areas Jackie one of the topics you mentioned is the resistance that native forest can offer to fire if not resistance at least lower risk and again one of these kind of non timber benefits that is the world heats up that good stands of native forest can offer us as a country Kia ora so native forest if it's intact and healthy is indeed quite fire resistant I mean I think we've all stepped into healthy native forest about the coolness and the micro climate there some of our native species are quite flammable particularly Manuka and Kanuka but the complex native forest that we all love that is largely fire resistant but if you google there is the rural fire services guidelines about what flammable species you can use and what species you shouldn't use but yes you can create green fire bouts and this is something that's been done overseas a lot particularly China they've put in huge investment into creating green fire bouts because they want a future proof agricultural land their forests their rural populations and try to prevent the spread of fire so green fire bouts yes and using native species you've got the benefit also of creating ecological corridors all the benefits for biodiversity for all cultural services pollination services etc so it makes a lot of sense that we need to be thinking about more and particularly planting around our very urban areas which you know can be vulnerable to fire so you know different parts of our landscape and protecting resources horticultural areas plantation forests green fire bouts have a lot going for them Keith Dark has made a comment that Himalayan spruce in Australia in the Australian Arboretum it's huge Canberra fires I think though for us our native species we plant and keep intact our existing native forests make sure it's healthy protecting it from pests in particular then we're creating fire bouts and reducing fire risk but also creating plantings of green fire bouts makes a lot of sense I think we should be using our native species because of all the other narrative benefits that come along with them Look we are out of time there are so many benefits to talk about and we haven't exhausted them I'm sure so there is a ton more information on the Pure Advantage website that you can go and read this is a dialogue so we're hoping to lift the level of intelligence and debate around our Nahedi so next week I'll go to a little ad for next week we're going to look specifically about the benefits brought to the climate change issue both from a sequestration point of view but also from a biodiversity point of view because of course climate change itself is a subset of a bigger problem around our loss of habitat and biodiversity so that's next week we're going to be a very interesting discussion about how we use and benefit from our Nahedi and the climate affected world but for now let me thank our guests Edina Walker Hal Davies and Dr Jackie Amers thank you so much for participating in this discussion thank you also to all the guests who have joined us and asked questions anyway that's us for tonight thank you Bell, thank you to the crew and thank you to our guests in Nohura