 Okay. Shall we start now then? Okay. Andrew, for the people that don't know you, maybe can you give a first introduction of yourself rapidly for people to understand who you are, what you were doing before and what you are doing now? Okay. So 60 seconds. So I was 30 years in financial services in the city of London, mainly HSBC for almost 20 years, Lloyds Bank, and then for the last two or three years I've been working for pension companies. So I work mainly in London but Hong Kong, Bangkok, Tokyo, Madrid in my time I've been seconded by the various banks that I've worked for. In the middle of last year it was the heat of the summer, the IPCC 1.5 degree report and particularly reading GEM's deep adaptation paper that suddenly made it all feel wrong that I was continuing to work for a pension company that let's face it encourages young people to save for the next 20, 30 or 40 years so they can have some financial security in their in their old age. So I gave up my job clearly from a position of privilege, not needing to worry about a roof over my head or food on the table. That was January this year. I became within about a month a full-time volunteer with Extinction Rebellion and I've been arrested three times this year, first time in April on Waterloo Bridge. Then I entered the European elections as an independent candidate and then finally at home because in the last two or three months I've had some more significant roles in my volunteer work with Extinction Rebellion. I lead the finance team and I've also been supporting in an administrative capacity, one of the co-founders Roger Hallam. So that's basically me. Okay, thanks for the introduction. I think it's very interesting so we can go in a lot of different avenues from there but if it's possible can you detail us your thought process for going towards climate change activism, what has been the trigger and how far has it been with you, this sort of climate change? Have you been made aware? Yes. References if you have. I know you've written your article on media but if you're interested we can post the link after. Sure. Yeah so the beauty of most people being online these days is you can look back and when I gave up my job and I actually tweeted a brief paragraph of what I wrote to my colleagues on my final day at the pension company Nest. I was encouraged by a couple of people. I think Gem was one, Rupert Reed was another. They encouraged me to write more about why I'd taken this decision and that your digital footprint allows you to look back on various points of your journey. So I was always an anti- always. I think I've been mainly an anti-war activist right through the first Gulf War and the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I was passionate about my activism being against war. But I think I got the climate emergency. I was late to the party and I got the climate emergency in 2015 because I was writing a blog. I was taking about six months out between jobs and I was writing a blog and it was a sort of silly trivial make the world a better place sort of blog. I was writing something every day. I think 365 days to change the world was the sort of inspiration book that I picked up. So recycle or do this or do that or do the other. And it was about February 2015 that I wrote about the climate and the picture I used was Earthrise, this first picture of the planet from space. And I called this blog Stories for My Grandchildren, which some people might know there was a book by Dr. James Hansen called Storms of My Grandchildren, which is a 2008 book about climate change. So clearly I'd been thinking and inspired by various authors about the climate change, but as I wrote this blog in 2015, as I wrote to my fictitious or hope to have future grandchildren, my kids were, my kids at the time were 15 and 20, right? So I hadn't got grandchildren. The idea is if your kids don't listen to you, then your grandchildren might, right? But I was clearly quite frantic and apologetic to these future grandchildren that we'd really messed up. And so I look on that point as saying 2015 was the time that I got it, but I still went back to work for two or three years. And whilst I was following various climate change events on social media, I was still busy working again. And then 2018 is when I couldn't ignore it any longer. And I think it was the combination of the three things I mentioned, GEMS paper, the IPCC 1.5 report, the heat of the 2018 summer in the UK. But then it was the emergence of Extinction Rebellion and all of a sudden Extinction Rebellion gave me an excuse to do something, right? You know, there was something for me to do. And I think that was the final kick up the backside I needed. Okay. Well, that's, that's a fair point. I mean, at least when we spoke just there, I already said that to you, but I think to resonate with me and I'm sure it can resonate with a lot of other people. So thanks for sharing this part as well. Very interesting. And I know you, because we're on the deep adaptation forum, you mentioned red also the paper and it had an impact on you. And I think the idea I had for organizing the questions for you and for the people listening and watching this video, it's having the questions all the listed with the four hours in the papers, resilience, relinquishment, restoration, and reconciliation. And I think for this particular format, it was interesting for you for us to start this reconciliation, because to make the gap between your formal life and your life now, I think it's the best way to kickstart this interview. One of the points you mentioned, I think maybe it's on the BBC article that I put on the description of this event. You mentioned your son was maybe not too happy with your change of career. And we explained to you why I was saying you could have changed the world from inside being an investment banker, being in finance. Do you think it's true? What do you think you could have done in terms of reconciliation, which is what could I do? What could I make peace with to lessen suffering? Do you think you could have done something during your time in finance? In some ways, no. Incidentally, my son wasn't very happy with me with that quote, actually, on that BBC article. But I do remember him saying he's in VFX, Visual Effects, in the entertainment and advertising industry. And he did point to certain things that he's doing from a renewable energy. They're big users of computer power and processing power and they're trying to be more sustainable in the energy they're using. We talk about Elon Musk a lot, about how much Elon Musk has done potentially to save the planet. I mean, I think we can debate that, but he's clearly in a more sustainable business than pensions, for example. But I don't believe I could have really made a huge change in the pension company I was working for. And I actually believe my ability to potentially influence, and I say this really, really humbly, there's not many people who have given up jobs in the city of London to get arrested and be a full-time volunteer for Extinction Rebellion. So in some senses, because of that, and for no other reason, I've had a bit of a platform in the media on opportunities like this to talk about it. And it has allowed me to sort of point the finger a little bit at the finance industry. So I've been involved, I'm talking with a few people about whether to start something called Bankers for XR. I'm in a sort of business group, business declares climate emergency, I'm on the advisory board for that. So I think by coming out of the finance industry, I potentially had a bigger impact than I would have had if I had remained at Nest as a pension company and continued to do the role that I was doing. I wasn't in a particular ESG type role. So I really was just in a project team. So I actually think I did the right thing by leaving because my mind clearly was not focused on my work either. So I think I probably did Nest a service by leaving as much as I did myself. Okay. And on this particular point, we talked as well on Tuesday about that. Sorry, Anthony. Can I just interrupt you because I've just seen something come up on chat. Sorry, I mentioned the word ESG, Environmental, Social and Governance. Others will be able to know better than me, but it's basically how companies make sure that their businesses are sustainable. So I'm sorry for using a bit of jargon. Careful, Andrew. No, that's fine. I mean, after that, you mentioned as well the role of your family being supportive to you. You said the same for your colleagues. But what has been the when you make like, when you draw some conclusions about living, what has been the reaction of your former group of people, family, friends, co-workers? Not enough. I mean, in some senses, I don't think it's me. I think something's happened. I think the emergence of extinction rebellion has meant that this, the climate emergency has become a topic of conversation in a lot over a lot more dinner tables and families and in workplaces than it would. And that's the emergence, I guess, of Greta Thunberg and the extinction rebellion. And clearly, what feels like an increasing number of natural disasters that seem to be occurring. It's still a huge puzzle to me how many of my ex-colleagues and my peers in and around Southwest London where I live, when I talk to them and they joke a little bit and they congratulate me for what I'm doing, but they still don't join. And I'm still shaking my head at that one. There are a lot of people I know that have joined the extinction rebellion, but I'm still amazed when occasionally I come across somebody who has not even heard of extinction rebellion. They live in London, right? So I think there's a big, big journey for us all to, you know, there's still so much more to do. But I don't have any answers of why people get the climate emergency and yet leave it to others to try and produce the changes in society that we all need. So that's a real big puzzle to me. Okay. And I know like you mentioned like the emergence of extension rebellion as one big factor for you to engage and leave your job. So what has been the appeal to you in the extinction rebellion? Well, I remember years of being a sort of anti-war activist. And I've been on a lot of marches where I've been the only one that I know, not the only one on the march, thank goodness, but I've been on marches with a lot of people, but I have been the only one on that march. I've not gone with family and friends. And that felt quite a lonely sort of activism. Because when you actually get the climate emergency, it's quite a traumatic and upsetting experience. You know, clearly grief plays a big part or it should play a big part in people when they actually get the climate emergency. So I think one of the attractions for me of extinction rebellion is that I'm with a lot of people or I spend a lot of time with people who get it the same as me. And an extinction rebellion, one of the big things about this is something they call their regenerative culture. So there's an acceptance of the fact that we're in a climate emergency, but there's also an acceptance that what's probably got us here is a toxic society. And we probably need to change in all aspects of how we interact with others, how we interact with people outside of our own countries, etc, etc. And so the big attraction for me is, and I say this as somebody who's considers myself a little bit of an introvert, that having time where you talk to people, cry with each other about the problem that we're in. Extinction Rebellion isn't just a group of people who go out and block the traffic on the streets. It's almost a community where we all get it and we're all supporting each other. So it's quite a beautiful thing in some senses to be part of Extinction Rebellion, wherever you are in your journey. Okay. And how did you find them? What did you hear about them? So it was mid October. So Extinction Rebellion didn't launch until the 31st of October last year. And the first time I, so I think I'd read Jem's paper around the August time, early August. And then George Monbiot wrote about Extinction Rebellion in The Guardian. So it was about the last paragraph of a piece about disobedience or rebellion was probably the only thing left to people who cared about the environment now. It was, it was like the last chance of saloon to do something about it. And then suddenly in this final paragraph he said, that's why on the 31st of October, I will be in Parliament Square for the launch of Extinction Rebellion. And I'd never heard of Extinction Rebellion before that. And I was at the, I was working at the pension company on the 31st of October. So I, I didn't make it to the launch. But two weeks, two weeks later, myself and my wife and our dog walked out onto Waterloo Bridge and blocked the traffic on Waterloo Bridge. And that was the first major action of Extinction Rebellion. They sat a day in November when we blocked five, five consecutive bridges across the Thames in London. And there were a number of arrests that day. But, you know, that was, that was about three or four hours sitting on a, on Waterloo Bridge. And then suddenly I'm, I'm sort of part of it. Yeah, because, you know, if you, if you care about the environment and you, you subscribe to the values and behaviors of Extinction Rebellion, you're it, you remember there's no, there's no membership fee to pay or a card, a membership card. So I'm, so I'm suddenly part of Extinction Rebellion. And as many people who are part of Extinction Rebellion still happily going off Monday to Friday and working. Okay. Maybe that's a, that's a good transition to one of my questions as well, like what's, what's changed between your working life before, before joining Extinction Rebellion and what, what does your, what does your week looks like now? So, okay. So I, I still get up quite early in the morning. I still spend most of my day in front of a computer. I don't get paid for what I'm doing. I mean, some, some volunteers get, get living expenses from Extinction Rebellion, but it's based on financial need. And I'm fortunate enough that I don't need to claim that from Extinction Rebellion. I think it's, it's more, it's more consuming. There, there have been times in my career where I've, I've been totally consumed by my job. There was, there was one, one time I remember back in 2010, working for Lloyd's Bank where I'm, I sort of got the five-something in the morning train up into London and didn't get home until eight o'clock at night and I got to the weekend and I was completely exhausted. But in general, it was a job. I went to work, got to work around eight o'clock. I got home about half past five, six, seven o'clock at night and I could do other things. I think the climate emergency is a little bit different. Once you know, it almost consumes you a little bit. It's, it's why I consider myself a little bit of a working progress. So there are times I look at myself and I go, you've, you've, you've got to have a few more boundaries here. You can't be this 100% climate activists worrying about the finances at Extinction Rebellion. You, you've got to remember you're still a husband. You're still a father. You still like to go and play tennis, meet with friends who aren't part of Extinction Rebellion. And so, you know, sometimes I get a little bit out of kilter, but the main, the main thing is I still feel that I'm, I'm working. I'm just working for nothing on something I absolutely passionately believe in. And, and I, as I say, I repeat, I recognize my privilege because not everybody can afford not to have income and, and effectively do what I'm doing. So, you know, I, I do it gladly, but it's, it's, it's, it's part of my privilege and my age that, that I find myself in this position. Do you think like maybe in a, in a parallel universe where you wouldn't have been as successful as what you've been before, things would have turned out the same for you? Like if you, if you didn't have such savings, basically, do you think you, you would still have become what you are doing now, or maybe different? So, so that's, that's a really good question. And it's possible it would be different, but it's possible it wouldn't be different. And let me try and explain what I mean by that. We all go to work for a reason and, and at its very basic level, some, some people go to work in order to pay a mortgage or to put food on the table or bring up children or whatever. But there are also plenty of people who I think are working really, really hard because of rewards that are going to be achieved 10 years from now, not rewards that are being achieved now, if you know what I mean. So, so it's, it's the reason why a young, recently qualified lawyer will, will work 60 hour, 70 hour weeks, because they want to make partner and they want to make partner in 10 years time or 12 years time. And that's the path that they must go through in order to, to reach that point. And it's the same in banking and it's the same in a lot of careers, you, you almost work beyond what is healthy and sensible for some rewards that will happen in 10 or 15 years time. And, and so if I look back now and say, if I was, you know, if that's me, if what I'm doing is, I'm throwing in all my effort into my career for what I may have 10 years from now, then, then I think the concept of deep adaptation and gems paper and near time, societal collapse should, should influence whether or not that's the right thing for you. There's a lot of people who work really, really hard and they have to for food and shelter and money, but if, if you are somehow postponing your life for want of a better word, you're postponing what it is to live a decent life in the hope of future rewards, then suddenly knowledge of deep adaptation is a real challenge to that. So I don't know if that's making sense, Anthony, that what I'm, what I'm trying to say is, yes, I, I, I may have continued to do my job, but, but certainly there are aspects. Once you know what, what we may be facing in the future, there are aspects that would probably say is, you know, am I in the right career? Am I, have I got the, the right work-life balance, et cetera? Andrew. Okay. Hello, Andrew. It's Matt here. Can you hear me clearly? Yes, it has. Ah, good, good. Well, thanks very much for hosting this already. It's a great colleague. I want to talk to you as a fellow X city worker who's given up or quit the rat race to try and it's more in line with sort of like the ecological emergency. Personally speaking, I've accrued half a career's worth of knowledge and wisdom based in the insurance industry that I was a part of. And now having come out of it, I find myself with a lot of knowledge that's not, not necessary anymore and a lot of knowledge of the workings of the industry that's suddenly not so relevant anymore. And I'm thinking about, where do I take my next steps? Where do I, um, on my efforts best served in, um, um, get into a position of personal resilience and personal satisfaction in the work that I'm doing? Or it, are my efforts best served going back into my industry and utilizing through a new lens of deep adaptation XR and so on so forth and actually applying the skills back in the industry that I've been a part of and taking me that way? Because I'm looking at you and seeing this career that you've pursued and now sort of draw the line under. And I wonder if there is a, if you've considered going back into your previous industry but with a new hat on, I wonder if you could speak to that a bit? Yeah, so, um, it's difficult to think for me and you may, you may think there's a, there's a place at this moment in time, I think that the financial services industry is not showing the level of leadership that it is. So, so I personally feel with a little bit of, a little bit of credibility and the lingo for one for a better word, that actually my, I've got a better influence on the finance industry by standing outside of it and possibly pointing the finger as part of the sort of extinction rebellion activism. I would, I would struggle to think there was a single role in the city of London that I could go in and have a greater impact and I mentioned a little bit earlier on this call that that's possibly because I'm one of the few people I think that have suddenly gone climate emergency, can't work in the financial services industry anymore, let's go and get arrested on the streets of London. If your journey is similar, it's great, we need to band together and think how we can point the finger at industry and that. I mean clearly the financial services industry are not acting as they should, but that doesn't mean to say there might be people within the insurance industry that could have a real big impact, do their own rebellion from inside. So there's a couple of things, there's one thing that's been set up by somebody who's quite close to extinction rebellion called truthteller.life, truthteller.life is the website and this is an attempt to say that there are people working in financial services who are aware of internal papers and risk analyses that the banks themselves or the insurance companies might be discussing about climate change that are just not in the public domain and it would be really interested to get to get some of that thinking into the public domain. So that's one way in which, but to answer your question specifically, I think there are, as I've come out of financial services, I think there's lots of skills that can be translated into whether it's just activism or other walks of life or other jobs. I would really struggle that there are particular roles where you could really go in and make a change in these big financial industries. I hope that answers your question a little bit. Yeah, well look, it's a really complex situation and I think for me personally, I want my future to lie in where I can have the greatest impact, whether that's being an activist from within or externally or even looking at regulation and that's an avenue to pursue. But I certainly think, you know, this applies specifically to financial services, but you could probably trust it a bit wider and think about people who are recognizing the implications of adaptation. Yeah, and please go and walk about at the moment, I can see. So I've got the kids at home and they are just waking up from their nap, so I'm just moving from my living room to the bedroom of my children. I've got twins, so don't drag me, it's just that. Matt, your point about should I concentrate on deep adaptation for myself? Just one thing, we have also other questions, so if people are interested as well, they can just raise their hand and we will come back to the question. I think you've got another question coming from Andrew, so just keep that in mind. Maybe answer the last question from Matt, take your time, but you've got another one coming. Okay, so Matt, you mentioned about should I concentrate on deep adaptation for myself? You were talking about yourself, I still think I'm an absolute baby in this regard. I've gone from full-time city career to full-time activism and those boundaries are not right yet, so I think Gemma's talked about people can go from one form of denial where they don't really appreciate the trouble we're in, and then when they find out, they run around in their activism so much that they actually, it's another form of denial, and there are times this year where I felt I have been too much the other way, if you know what I mean. I realize what's going on, but I'm not doing that deep adaptation for myself, so I really need to get that right. Yeah, well I'll leave it there, but I'll be very interested to get your thoughts specifically on financial services, so I will message you. We have another question from Andrew, can you hear us? Yes, can you hear me? Yes, good, okay. Well, I jumped ship from the corporate world in 1977 and have since been working on permaculture work ever since and have been a mentor and a coach for lots of people who have been going through transitions, the same transition, exit strategies from well-paying jobs into a life of the somewhat chaotic and possibly quite frugal life of becoming an activist of some sort, and one of the models that we have found absolutely the most useful comes from a guy called Ralph Bridges. He wrote a book called Transitions Back in the 1980s. He said the first thing you need to do is to work out how to stop doing what you're doing now. You don't need to work out what to do next, you just need to work out how to stop doing what you're doing now. Allow yourself to slide into a place of chaos, okay, crash about in there for a while and maybe a year or two until you discover what it is that you want to do next, okay, and then it becomes quite clear what you need to do. So you need to be prepared. It's kind of like a training for what we all need to be able to do around deep adaptation anyway, which is to survive a period of extreme chaos when you've got no idea what's happening, no idea how you're going to make your living, okay, but you have at least stopped being part of the problem and you're now in a free space where you can start thinking about how you can be part of the solution. So I'm just offering that, okay. Thank you. Thank you. So we're going now with Alex for another question. Hi, hi everyone. Hello, Lloyds Banker. You can stay at Lloyds and change the world, it turns out. Now I don't know. I was going to provide a counter example because I'm asking myself this question quite a lot about whether to stay at Lloyds and I do think I'm making a difference. So I haven't got a question. Is it all right if I provide a counter example? Of course. And so I'm working at Lloyds and it's a big organization, so lots of different people doing lots of different roles, but my history has been involved in change and projects and latterly I've been involved in a large cultural transformation project at Lloyds, which is changing the entire organization about how they do work. And I guess the interesting thing is in some ways is I can thank Lloyds for actually taking me along a learning journey and path. So you wouldn't expect ISA and you wouldn't expect an organization like Lloyds having one there, a lot from the path. So I'm going to answer that they would be a trigger for personal growth, but they have been. In some ways I'm grateful for that, but what it's taken me to is a lot of questioning, a lot of questioning of assumptions about the system we're operating within, realizing there are a lot of problems that we're facing and climate crisis being an outcome of that. Inequality and lots of other sort of societal problems being a problem about the system we're operating within and which I assumed was good and a really simple quick example of that I suppose is for me at least the learning was that I figured out early on in work that there was a bit of deceit and lying required to get on and you couldn't really be yourself and be honest, there was definitely a need to put on a sort of false face to be successful. And in the last few years I realized, well, A, I don't want to do that, but B, it's a lie that you need to be doing that. And in fact, if you're going to be effective in an organization from a business and a business, even a commercial perspective, you need to create an environment of sort of psychological safety and trust where people can be themselves in order to actually be even better employees. So I guess that's sort of something I discovered along the way, but I guess in terms of Lloyd's, we're part of this cultural transformation. So I am hopeful that some of the changes that might result from what we're trying to do will actually change Lloyd's significantly. And I need to be a bit careful about what I'm saying here as I realize this, but some of the things that hold us back in terms of having a sort of power hierarchy and so on are bad for an organization, ultimately anyway. So where am I driving with this? I think there's potential as part of my role within Lloyd's is to change people's perspective and go through a learning and growth journey in the same way as I have. When this sort of whole thing started, this conversation, there was a brief comment on psychology and how it's changing people's minds. And Andrew, you talked about how, which I think we've all experienced, people agreeing very vigorously what you're doing and then doing nothing about it. Well, I say nothing, but apparently not joining Extinction Rebellion, which seems to be, you know, well, that's actually a crazy thing. That's the wisest response to if you recognize and there's a crisis. But in some ways, excuse me, it's about helping people follow their own journeys and raise their own level of consciousness and being sympathetic to the fact that's what actually happens. We can't all follow the same path. I'm entering the rambling territory. But what I'm trying to say is, I think there is a possibility within my role. And a very concrete recent example is I'm actually interested. I'm actually about to try to introduce permaculture sort of design principles within the organization. And then I've just been started working together. So I'm looking for opportunities and because of where I am in the organization and being a sort of pivotal place for my team to change why they work, we can question some basic assumptions. And one of those is potentially using permaculture and it's ethical basis for sort of tackling how we work within Lloyd's. So I'm not sure how well I've explained that, but I'm saying as a point as an opportunity to change the organization within. So it's great. It's great to hear that. I mean, so to me, we've got this we've got this deep adaptation, the need need for all of us to change from within and how we interact as a society. And then you've got, I guess it's my extinction rebellion part, which is to say we're in a climate emergency, our house is burning down. And we may be so much into the deep adaptation side of things that we actually go it's too late. We're just going to be part of this deep adaptation bit. Or there's some sort of hybrid where you actually say, yeah, I need to do this. This is really important. But on this, but this side, I really need to, I need to act as though the house is burning down. And this is not a criticism, but the one thing I didn't hear from you was the emergency. And, and clearly Lloyd's Bank as the biggest domestic bank in the UK has the chance to be a huge leader on the climate emergency. So there was a, there how close would be Lloyd's Bank to declaring a climate emergency? How close would it be to decarbonizing its own operations within the next few years? How close would it be to provide real leadership by saying, we're no longer going to fund fossil fuel infrastructure that if it continues, if I mean, I saw a graph just in the last few days, the 1.5 degree ambition, the 2 degree ambition, and then what the current finance, what current policy is funding in terms of fossil fuel. So I don't want to be a big, I don't want this to be a big debate about Lloyd's, but I do think banks in general, because there's such huge parts of our economy have the chance to show real leadership in this area. And so I would, I would say to what extent are the 100,000 staff of Lloyd's Banking Group engaged in climate emergency and their senior executives leading on this issue? That would be the big thing I would, I would be looking for Lloyd's to, to do at this moment tonight. And I'll just, yeah, and obviously, let's not make it about that organization, but I think it probably parallel society in that there are lots of people, you know, who are part of an organization who are actually sympathetic. Some people I know who are acting, but they don't have the levers of power. And in the same way as Boris Johnson or whoever you want to point out as a leader isn't acting. I see the same situation in sort of large organizations as well. But I guess the question has to boil down to what can you do individually? And this is a paradox to me is, do you change the system from within? Or do you step outside and create a new one? And I can't, my answer personally is you try and do both because you've got to do whatever you can. And if that's a, if that's a way of influencing within, to be frank, at the moment, I haven't, I haven't taken the roots that Andrew was referring to where you enter into chaos as you start to transition. And I'm really interested in that actually to understand more about that. Because I'm in the same position I have a family, I have a child. I've got personal responsibilities, which I can't sort of abandon. So although I would try, my wife called me radicalized the other day. I'd like to do quite radical, but I don't want to damage the people around me in the process. So that's a sort of paradox. So I'm, there was an element of, yes, I have to continue doing this because I haven't figured out the route out, the safe route out of this. And while I'm here, I'll continue to, you know, make an impact as I can, make some noise. And ultimately, if I don't see integrity, I might have to take some different action, I might have to take some different choices. But I'd like to say, well, I think you're definitely not alone in this path. I think everybody is trying to figure out the way of, as you say, being outside of the system and also like doing staying in the same position out of fears. I think, I don't know, I'm saying out of fear, my personal fears, I would say, but as I say, having, having children like change, change a bit for the car that they're in my position, I would say. I think we got Nedad on with the question for you and you. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you. Thanks, Arik. Sorry. I'm not used to Zoom yet. So thanks, Arik. Thank you. Nedad, you won. Yeah, sorry, I, I had somebody on my door at the very moment. So Andrew, Andrew, I'm curious about what can you translate from your peace or anti-war activism to your current way of doing stuff? But before I hear you, I would like to share a little bit as a comment. Yeah. So I'm calling from Zagreb, Croatia, and I'm also permaculturist and my, my transition was later than Andrew's. I'm a different generation, but it was happening for me during the societal collapse. We had wars here beginning of 90s. And what I want to say that there is this difference in level of choice you have when you are dealing with your own cognitive dissonance only, and when you are dealing at the same time with the societal collapse. The level of choice is very, very, very, very different. And because this transition was happening for me, for example, that was when I started working in environmental organizations. And my transition took quite a long time, 10 or 20 years maybe. So I'm curious, can you translate anything from your peace activism to current situation? Because what I see with deep adaptation is much more like being in the middle of the war conflict, not, not as a being a peace activist in a country where there is no war conflict. That's a tough question. Yeah, I sort of, I sort of think in some senses that activism about the environment or about the climate should be a lot easier than activism about anti-war. I mean, on one level we should all be against war, right? But my anti-war activism felt to me to be a lot more political than my climate activism is. I actually believe that Extinction Rebellion is a, a political organization. It would be very arrogant to think it's only progressive or left of center activists who care about their children and care about their planning, care about a decent society for everyone. So, so I think from that point of view, I'm, climate activism should be a lot easier because it's affecting all of us and will affect us all. But the parallels are that my anti-war activism was just one particular cause that I was in, I was supporting or a position I was taking. The thing about climate and environmental activism is it really encompasses everything. So if you care about, if you care about inequality, if you care about war, if you care about gender rights and that, all of these other things are things that are undermined by climate, the climate emergency and societal breakdown. So, so it's almost the tsunami that's going to swamp everything else. And it's one of the reasons why Extinction Rebellion have attempted to not just try and attract supporters to their own cause, but to reach out to other groups. So at the recent rebellion in October in London, we reached out to the animal rights movement. And they were not Extinction Rebellion, but they called themselves Animal Rebellion. They signed up to the three demands of Extinction Rebellion even though they were a separate movement because they were convinced or they recognized that if society make the changes that we all need to make, we need to move to a predominantly plant-based diet, then a lot of their aims about animal welfare and animal rights will actually be achieved by that. So it's a way in which we've reached out, we call it our movement of movement strategy. So, you know, I don't know if that's answering your question at all, but it was probably a yes, yes, it was very good. Thank you. A stumbling attempt to do it. We're all part of the solution here. It's why I look back at my colleagues or my ex-colleagues in business and I say it's not for me to criticize because I feel I'm really late to the party. You know, in terms of, you know, another Andrew talked about, he's been doing something since 1977. I wish, I wish I hadn't been so late to the party, but you know, it doesn't matter when you arrive. The question is, everyone needs to get on but bored here because this is not something that three or five percent of the population is going to change. It's all of us being part of the solution. Yeah, so you said that Extinction Rebellion for you is non-political. I would kind of agree with that, but I would tweak it. I think because it's about existential issues, it is so political that's beyond politics. Yes, yes, that's a good, that's a good point. And we have another question from Andrew. Another Andrew over the same answer. Thanks. Thanks for that question. It's the same Andrew. I'm happy not to go if anybody else has got a point, but I work a lot in education. In fact, I'm at a little university called Gaia University that is specifically for people who are seeking to make these kinds of transitions and get on board with work that's to do with ecosystem restoration and all that kind of stuff. So when I'm talking to my colleagues in mainstream academic world of whom I have a few, what I tell them is something like, it's kind of like saying something about the relationship between people who are working inside the system for reform and people who are working outside the system where actually the climate, the flow of wealth is much reduced. As soon as you step outside of the system, you're in a place where you have to make your own living and that can be quite tough. Okay. So one of the suggestions I make to my academic friends is what they need to be doing because here in the US, for example, there's this massive deconstruction of the university system. There's something like 50% over capacity. So they're all these colleges closing down on the place. They need to be just as interested in making sure something outside their system exists and is healthy, so that there's somewhere that they can jump to when their college closes or collapses, okay, as they do attempting to reform from the inside. So inside reformers need to be finding ways to financially support the outside leading edge activists is what I'm kind of getting at. So finding a way of flowing some of your funds just out there to support people like me who are working on the edge would be very helpful. Check. Thanks Andrew. Or cash. Cash or check. But I think we have some other questions. That's an interesting system as well. Is it something that you've put in you've managed to put in place or is it something that you are working for the funding? Is that a question for me, me, Anthony, or for the other Andrew? Sorry, Andrew. It's a continuous question for those of us who are working in the outside area. You know, for example, there's this new ecosystem restoration camps movement that's getting going. Got a good camp going in Spain and another one happening in Mexico and a couple happening here in California and so on. Really exciting bringing volunteers out into the rural areas to rehabilitate forests and rebuild streams and so on and so forth. Great work. And yet it's continuously struggling to find finance. Okay. And it's absolutely clear that the mainstream governmental organizations and so on find it very difficult to put money into those sorts of things. So we're all scratching around. We're all, you know, when I finish this call, I'll be going over there to build my my horizon compost bin so that we can plant some trees up on the hills and so on and so forth. And we'll be doing that voluntarily, all funded out of our minimum levels of income. Okay. So that's what I want. So Lloyd's Bank, anybody else who's working in the financial industry, anybody who's working in insurance industry, insurance industry, especially what you need to do is you need to be investing large sums of money in ecosystem restoration. Okay. Give it over. We know what to do with it. We can replace that in one short sentence. So for both Andrews, we need to look for within the system outside of the system partnerships, you know, something like public private partnerships, but within the system outside of the system partnerships. I'm looking for I'm looking for sympathetic organizations in the business world, law firms, accountancy firms, banks or insurance companies to possibly second individuals or volunteers into extinction rebellion to help us put in place our sort of finance team and our accounting and stuff like that. I mean, I think that would be a fantastic way in which they would support the climate emergency by actually giving some of their resources and that in support of possibly, you know, the most activist movement at this moment in time in the UK at least. So that I'm certainly looking to companies to sort of support us in that way. Okay. I think we are just round about the hour. To everybody with us today, if we have some other questions left for Andrew. It's only men who have spoken today, Anthony. I'm really keen. One thing we have to recognize in extinction, we try and recognize in extinction rebellion is it shouldn't always be the men talking. So I'd love it if there was a woman who wanted to ask a question. It would be it would help me. Of course, no pressure to no pressure. I think we have a question from Matt Crosston's friend. I'm Juliet. I am my question is so I'm an architect and about two years ago, I basically had a very strong sense that the world was crumbling and I was sitting there designing kitchens and basically it was like a physical repulsion that forced me to leave and step out. And I've spent two years. I've come to Schumacher College. I've learned about horticulture. However, I'm now facing the next step, which is very daunting because I feel like I've been in two years of chaos, not really having a fixed address, trying to find a way forwards. And unfortunately, the system that currently exists is a lot easier to step back into than to keep going forwards into this kind of deep adaptation approach and particularly as a single person with one income. And I just wonder if there's any advice for how you keep with the chaos or transition that forwards into something new, rather than going back to the safety net of the system, even though I know I don't want to be part of it. That's a question of me. I feel so bad. So did I hear your name correctly Juliet? Yeah, Julia. I'm sorry, Julia. At this stage, I feel a bit of a fraud because of the state of my life that I'm here. So I'm thinking about to what extent do I continue this activism with Extinction Rebellion. There are lots of wonderful young people who are volunteering for Extinction Rebellion at the moment, getting some volunteer living expenses. How much longer should there be climate activism, for example? Is it another 12 months? Is it another two years before? I mean, if we're having these same conversations in 2021, there's a part of me that says we should just move to deep adaptation because the world's not listened. You know, it really just feels like we're in this small window to sort of attempt to do something. Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm going to ramble and it's a question I'm going to have to think about, Julia, because I think the good thing that I think is really, really important is I feel I'm really late to this party and at my age, I wish I'd found out 10 years earlier. What I think you have is time in a way that I haven't got time, if you know what I mean, that I actually think you can find paid work that is meaningful, that it actually does some of those things that you need, which is to look after yourself and to build a life. I think what a realization of the climate emergency does for me is there are some careers, that 70, 80 hours a week for a law firm, they're yesterday's careers. I really believe that. I think there are careers where you can get pleasure and you can support yourself and then there are other careers that are just old 20th century type careers now. So if you start to think about it's the life that I live in the next 30 years that is going to define my life and business as usual is gone, then there's almost no worry about what life looks like when you're 60 in your case. I mean when I'm 60 it's only seven years from now. I don't know if I'm making some sense but you're already on the path and you don't have all the answers but I don't know of all the answers either and it sounds like you're asking the right questions even if you're not sure about what the right answers are. Yeah I think it's when fear takes over and there's both the existential fear and there's also the day-to-day fear and it depends what you're feeling, which fear you want to be. Yeah yeah all I know is, sorry I didn't mean to talk over you. Today's celebrity, today's materiality, today's we look at people, business leaders or pop stars as being the people to aspire to. I actually think the world is going to very quickly transition to people who are good listeners and have skills and take active part in community and know how to build things. So I think you as an architect, if that's your training albeit not not kitchens but perhaps buildings, I mean I think that these are the people that are going to be valued, people who can grow food for example, people who can grow things. Yeah I've also been working on community land trust projects so that's I suppose building community and kind of yeah getting land ownership to be more democratic so I think I have to hope, I have to hope that the world, I don't have this hope on right but I have to hope that the world is going to get it and then things are going to move really really quickly and so if the world gets it then I think there's going to be lots of exciting ways in which people who have got it for longer than other people who are now running around thinking what do we do, what do we do, there will be opportunities for you to play an active part in you know what societies need to look like 10, 15, 20 years from now. We have another question from Karen for you Andrew. Thanks Julia. So it's actually from Brent. It's from Brent. Sorry I thought it was from Karen. So maybe that qualifies me. So first of all Andrew I would like to commend you on what you've done. That's a very bold step to give up your career and pursue to what you believe is very right thing to do. Personally I think that you know both you Andrew and Alex are very much on the same page. You feel like you can make impact. You've decided to move outside your career to do that. Alex has decided to stay in his career and I believe that we need both those. I believe we need people who are outside and inside because we all know nothing happens unless we get inside. I mean driving business to change means that we either have to legislate it or they need an incentive to change which is obviously usually money and we see that innovation. I think of impossible burger for instance. They're providing an alternative. They're not interested in feeding vegans. They're interested in getting people off of meat. So that's some innovation. So that's obviously somebody on the inside who gets it. So I think that we need kind of both and more importantly as we alluded to earlier we need both to work together. Right those people on the outside you Andrew now to work with people like Alex on the inside you know to come up with solutions who have you know drank kool-aid. I'm sorry I almost jumped in there just for another female voice. I think that being I have one of those ESG type roles so I work in sustainable investing and I have a few friends that have moved to the outside and are you know very you know activists and they you know agitators and it's actually beneficial you know to have people like Andrew on the outside kind of keeping us honest like each day I wake up and I ask myself am I you know with given my experience and my capabilities am I being bold enough am I doing enough am I being courageous enough am I being clear enough so just you know because I've thought of myself where can I have the most impact inside outside and I'm like okay am I just justifying staying in the role but you know like Brent says and I tend to talk to him a lot they they do compliment each other so yeah so so I didn't have really good points I think because because of this notoriety for want of a better word of suddenly deciding I could no longer do the job I was doing and then being arrested three times this year I've been invited to a few things so I was at a sustainable business conference in in Madrid in October and the CEO of Beyond Meat I think the maker of the impossible burger was actually one of the speakers at this conference and I I sort of gave gave an opening talk at the beginning of that was followed by you know deputy chief technology at NASA for 25 years you know it's bizarre I've also been on panels at other ESG or sustainable business type conferences and it's really liberating to actually sort of stand stand up for one to the other word and go the house is on fire we're all burning you know so I think it has helped that I have stepped outside and I'm looking back I have to be a little bit careful how I actually play that card and not play it too much but yes I agree it's I've had some great great conversations with some really interesting people and as a result of that they published articles and there's articles coming out I think this guy called Robert Eccles in in the US who's big sustainable business guy really well connected he's going to be posting a piece on his blog in the next 24 48 hours which which talks about being on the right side of history and he's using the engagement or the fact that I've met him and that to sort of challenge the investment community so so while while I still have that impact I you know I sort of try and play my part is everybody finding what their part is and just playing playing the best set of the best hand they can from the cards that are given them well thanks Andrew thanks Karen and Brent and do we have more questions for Andrew though I don't want to be I was typing on your time and it's a Saturday as well well maybe I will go for one just waiting to see for the people we'll have a last question that will be my last one and given the financial context in the world right now what's your perspective on a potential economic crisis and the impact it could have also on climate emergency so okay so let me let me let me tell you very briefly about my view on financial markets back in the late 90s everybody realized there was a bubble forming in technology stocks there was one particular asset manager who was in a very influential position in one of the big fund managers running some big pension scheme funds who basically said I'm going to start withdrawing from technology stocks but but this might have been 1998 and he was about 12 months too early so the markets can technology stocks continue to rally and so his performance it was he underperformed everybody else and I think I think the reason I mentioned this story is people can believe that there is a right right steps to take in terms of investment and asset management but that doesn't mean to say that anybody's brave enough to take them that as long as everybody else is doing it there's a herd mentality and I feel this a little bit about the funding that's still going in I mean I mean the bank's funding of fossil fuel infrastructure has gone up from 2016 to 2017 to 2018 it's going up it's going in the wrong direction and it's going in the wrong direction because lots of the finance industry is governed by short-term interest it's all short term they don't look to the longer term and so I do think there will be some bad times ahead for stock markets and whatever I mean there's two alternatives here business as usual is finished in my opinion which means people act as though business as usual is going to continue until everybody realizes together it can't continue and then there's a crash or the pressure the pressure put on governments by Fridays for Future and Greta and the extinction rebellion suddenly starts to take an impact in which case the stock markets will realize that business as usual is no longer a possibility so I think there are troubled times ahead for financial markets the question is what is what is the trigger for this to happen and you know I don't know Anthony I'm not sure I've answered the question but but you know it's going to be rocky it's not just financial it's not financial markets it's going to be natural disasters it's going to be a shortage of food at periods of time and it's a question of how societies come together to get through you know these troubling times that are ahead it's not that they're not going to happen or are they going to happen or are they not going to happen they are going to happen the question is are we ready for them when they happen and and I guess that's why I run around and try and create publicity on the streets of London getting arrested and I guess it's why you know forums like this exist because what we're all trying to do is we're trying to collectively be prepared for what lies ahead whatever that may look like well that was maybe not with a question no no question but comment I think I don't know is very important element of deep adaptation because it opens space for collective intelligence and in merchants so well you know it's good to say I don't know for sure well for maybe last part in words I think I would like to thank everybody for joining us today with Andrew and hope you've got a few you've got some new insights from this conversation maybe it gave you food for sort for your for your future steps in your careers so I hope you you managed to to get that from us today and maybe Andrew last on the last part in words maybe last comments and work and people find you if they want to keep in contact with you Twitter LinkedIn so yeah thank you everyone for being part of this call and I hope I said a couple of things that might have been useful you can find me on LinkedIn Andrew Medhurst and Twitter A-N-D-M-E-D-H and if anybody wants to sort of extend the conversation and have separate bilateral conversations I'm more than happy to do that I'm sure I'm going to learn as much from from you lot as I you're going to learn from me I'm sure so thank you for your time everybody Andrew is also part of the deep adaptation forum now from this week so we can continue the conversation and so people have questioned you can just continue the conversation with the link of the event thank you very much yeah thank you Anthony thank you Anthony thank you for initiating and hosting this you're welcome thanks very much have a good Saturday everyone have a good weekend bye everyone thanks