 Good evening. Good evening. My name is Deborah Thomas, for those of you who don't know me, and welcome to what we're calling DASH, an Interruption of Triangle Theatre. Before we begin, thanks so much to the Arts Center here in Harborough for hosting this conversation, and thanks to New Play TV, a program of howl around for live streaming. If you'd like to contribute to the conversation, those of us who are watching online, you can tweet us with hashtag New Play. Unfortunately, the briefest of introductions will have to suffice for these ladies here with me tonight, for even a modest list of their accomplishments and work history would fill our entire hour this evening. In no particular order, we have co-artistic director of both Pantheater and Playwright Cheryl Schambley here at the other end. We have actor of stage and screening and theater educator Lori Maul. We have actress, actor, director and theater educator in the local high school system, Opine Love. The other co-artistic director of both Pantheater and Playwright, Tamaricka St. Lecturer and resident dramaturg at Duke Theater Studies, Janet Odendal-Japuz. Actor, director, writer, instructor and funny girl, Katya Hill. And actor, singer, dancer and choreographer, Moira Jones. And behind the camera, we have Sylvia Mallory, who is a local director and part of the impetus of this. So, a little bit of an introduction for the conversation. We decided to call this an interruption rather than something a little that made more sense. There's a conversation that's happening locally in the Triangle Theater scene that happens every year about what plays get produced and who gets hired to make those plays happen. And this is certainly a conversation that is taking place nationally with what happened at the Guthrie and all of the women everywhere kind of are going, hey, wait a minute. It's time for us to step up and have this conversation and how can we bring our voices to the table. And so we felt that the term interruption kind of spoke to that a little bit. The goal of this discussion tonight is to start to piece together the ways local female artisans can better support each other and the breadth of theatrical opportunities that we have here locally. We know this is just, we're not going to solve all the problems tonight. Certainly, with who we have here, more voices seem to be added to the table. This is the beginning of the discussion, but we do want to get to the end and feel like maybe we can start. And I'm going to start with, and again, this is a conversation, so please jump off with each other and speak to each other. Some have taken jobs that weren't quite up to their level of ability because that is what was offered to them and they felt like they had to take it in and have a voice. So it certainly is subjective to some extent, but for you guys, how would you define for yourself what would you like to see as a quality opportunity? I'd like to see quality opportunity. Meet the star all the time. I'd like to see more women mentoring other women in leadership roles. Because I'd say that for me to get my start as a director, really, I had to train as a director, I had to learn by watching. And that just didn't give me any room in comparison, but on in person watching, that was definitely a key. And what I'd find when I would try to apply these tools, some heavy acting, but you know that sometimes the way some men would direct just sounded wrong in my voice. And so I really had to come watching women who are very assertive in leadership roles, how they do it, how they succeed, like they're hurting people. But all that said, I really wonder about the entire chapter of character discussion. I wonder how it works sometimes. I just don't think it's helped people watch plays that was directed by a woman and that was directed by a man. And really, I just fell in love. I don't think David Crowler, but he's a man. He's an amazing director. Who are assertive women? Show me how to do it. What I think, I think that builds up with the question of is it, is it a handicap to be considered a woman director, right? Would you like to just be considered a director? Because they're, and I think we're talking about, or at least an analysis that I've done, the focus tends to be on directors and playwrights. That doesn't necessarily cover the breadth of women working in theater, in this town. They have a huge amount of scene designers. And I don't think anybody would sort of choose or would approach their job as a scene designer thinking first about I'm a woman or I'm a man. Or that they would get hired based on the woman and man. Yet, I do think there is some thing to be said. We can look at data about it that women are chosen oftentimes to direct women's plays. Specifically because the assumption is that we have a greater affinity that also then keeps us from, and I speak as someone who's trained a director and work as a director now, that somehow I then not give them a breadth of opportunities because the assumption is that I would direct women's play. And I built a career on that. I liked that. That was something I was happy to do, but I also understand where that could be in the larger hierarchy of that. And so I think there are people who resist that women's playwrights as well. They're like, well, I don't want to just be done because you need a woman in the slot. I wouldn't be done because my play is working. So I want to be thinking about that. So how do we address? I think it's a disparity, and I have numbers if we want to talk about that, about how many women are being hired, how many women's playwrights are being done in the season next year. But then how do you also want to reserve from that and go, okay, but we're artists and we want to be able to all work from the same playing field and not make assumptions about gender, about race, about these other identity markers over what we can do as artists. So how do we both demand sort of a sense of representation, but also say that's not the only thing I want to be represented or hired because I represent. And I can back you up on that because I don't go out seeking directing work. I'm a full plate as a high school director, so when I have the opportunity to direct professionally, it's usually I'm being approached. And I joked by the time I'd done By God and Boy Gets Girl, I was like, can I direct a play where a woman is not a soul friend? Like, can I direct a play that's, you know, a comedy in so many ways? And so, right, naturally they go, oh, we'll go to that person. I'd not like to be the director who gets women killed on stage, yay. And I also think I was thinking about parody. I was thinking today about the lifetime syndrome that even when plays are about women, I think we develop habits. We teach the way we were taught. We tell stories away. We've always heard stories. And even when the story is about women, I call it the lifetime story. I've seen Frozen and I've seen Doubt. Doubt I hadn't yet to see directed well. It's a woman's play. It's a play about nuns. And all these ends up being directed about the greats. And if you have a play that's about women, but we tell it like the man is the central character, those characters, it disturbances both sexes, both genders, because those characters then either have to be the monster or the hero. They're flat. That play is about the lack of power women had in the church at that point that they could clearly see a problem and their plans are tied to do anything about it because they were women. I think we yearn for plays and experiences that are full expression of being a woman and we don't really feel like we have or we wouldn't be sitting here talking. We've had it some, but so I think the answer what's the quality of the experience is different for each individual. I mean, I talk in the background of having a full-time great career as a professional actress for 20 years. And so I had to transition and find a second career to make a living when I moved here. And why? Because I aged out of roles. And I know we all know that's the story, but when it happens to you, it's very personal and it's not so fun. So I speak to it because now that's the minority I am in what's hard about is that you're sort of no one knows what to do with you and sometimes I don't know what to do. So I teach because I was teaching I fit in where I can fit in but why isn't there a place for me to go? And why do I have to go see my former male co-stars who are still working? I'm not good, but it is true and until that's not fully true there's something still off. I should have a place to go. Right, when there are a lot of stars, how do you show them to me? Well, my children in commercials who were 15 and I was like 30 and I thought, only did I have one. But that's what I learned to do. I learned to do things where I can fit in and I don't really care if it's assistant director or as a teacher or anything I can do to evolve this forward because I want the next generation of women to work longer than me. I want them to be working professional actors as long as they're male colleagues. I hope really strongly about that. Not a little longer, you know, as I did but as long as you're a male co-star that's what I want to see. And I learned to be direct by a woman like me, the thing beside my head is help me say more because and I don't want to do another story that's a rape, help just be an airplane. Right. Or just be a certain employee that's a female employee. Right, or objectify. Interesting to me to hear what you've got to say. I think partly because when we created both Anne's Theatre Company it sort of blew up that we were creating our opportunities to direct and be in stuff and write stuff and I don't think we did that because we were women we just make these shows and even now the helm of our own Theatre Company we're starting to have discussions about how we can create quality opportunities for ourselves and for other people, particularly with young children particularly women with young children and I think that creates a whole other dimension there's an opportunity itself to stay part of the opportunity but then there's also the logistical part of the opportunity whether you can take it better or not. Right, that's right. We just had a conversation at a conference about trying to just at the very base level look at the personal times of professional theatres during the day for women who have children who are on the artistic staff or not the director and so how do you sort of get when you have probably actors writers, dramaturgs seam designers, right, people who are rough being in the room but also how the difference in power who can bring that up can an actor negotiate and sort of say, you know, I can only you know, you can get hired someone else would take over for you so thinking about notions of women who choose to have children and want to also still work that they don't find themselves without some kind of recognizable net, I mean for doing the business that they have to do and it was really interesting because someone said please say that, you can say that to the director as John Turd and an actor would not risk that, right and so he'll help everybody by trying to make this larger bring up this larger point and we have rehearsal from 10 until 5 so I can pick up my kid from childcare, right so also realizing too that things I want for myself when I make that suggestion I'm also, hopefully, I'm thinking about other women in the company who might not voice that might not sort of bring all of that to the table because their position necessarily is a little more precarious in line I know that everybody's read the Anne-Marie Slaughter art full about women still can't have it all and all of that and I've been thinking we've been talking a lot about what if it's possible to be a theater, especially if you don't make your living entirely through your art you have a job doing something else during the day and if you're used to going at night and then having 12 hour tech rehearsals, especially if you're producing your own shows and dressing your own shows and you're doing even more than just attending the rehearsals it's just not a very family friendly model for me it is not sustainable and I do feel like there are lots of opportunities but I can't be available for the opportunities because of the way that our current models of creating art are set up and so it's a great interest to me to think about how can we how can we flex those, take them apart reinterpret, make accommodations because I feel like just at the point when I was ready to keep going, like really having momentum then there comes the baby who I love but that has been my creation and it gives there's no structure in existence that would allow you to do that it's really interesting because it's a conversation that is happening in the administration world from an audience perspective a lot because people, what we find is outside of the 60 plus demographic instead of all growing and gone there's certainly the majority of our audience and then, but once you get lower than that that coveted 20s to 50 demographic have kids at home when they do with the kids to go see a show and then how much does it cost it's a conversation that happens from an audience perspective but it's not a conversation that is happening from the artistic from the worker perspective and planning for this panel today because Deborah and I have talked about this model that could be to a co-op where the five theaters say your theater, Thursday nights if you're a ticket holder we have daycare at our theater as we have daycare on Friday at this theater and Saturday but that also could be expanded I mean, I'm actually thinking about it as a business model like, sure, yes I'm making my second job that you have rehearsal care because even if I was willing to pay for daycare who am I going to find that's five to eleven and really what I need is I need several cups and lullabies and so that I can come in at 6.30 get my baby ready lay it down and put him in the car seat then his routine is after my routine and I don't understand what I don't understand I know we're kind of getting off with all the other teen sections but we can totally jump into this before it starts the quality of the series is how I do it is that in the health care industry they have round-the-clock care built in I mean, I can remember when we were babysitting kids whose parents worked at the hospitals and they shipped and we would go out and I would take them back to the on-site care so I'm really confused from a near-autistic world why that has not come up as an option is it a money issue is it an insurance issue I mean, insurance on-site care is immediate we just had this discussion like two weeks ago and immediately it was at the Alliance Theatre in Atlanta and she was like, that'd be great we can't cover it, our insurance can't cover it in fact, we could call it creative play you know, like you could teach them something and then that would be something you wouldn't have to get licensed for in the same way that you do with a child but again, you're also going to be children that are of a certain age so you both have, you know the same way back to the Ann Marie Slaughter that women, if you choose to have children so that's the first sort of thing and Ed went out and said career, you're also dealing from a sort of age point where you're really having to you're in or you're out to manage both of them and I think men struggle with this as well but I don't think it has the same, we're still sort of in this space of a kind of cultural identity that a woman is expecting to do it I have the same sex relationship as a job, right? So it's not necessarily completely gendered it's about the family income and the structures of the day so, you know, that's there so every couple is dealing with that in some way or you know, people who don't have a couple, you know, someone else there to help them, that becomes something that you can't even compromise with because there isn't another person to sort of help you out It is a national discussion a lot of companies are looking at the culture of there what makes people stay but I was too unsure before the site a great experience years ago doing a production and the choreographer was nursing her baby at the time and there were a couple of other past members who had young children and we had Chris at the Bath & Waters Studio and a baby was crying and the baby was running or somebody else and it was great it had no effect whatsoever on getting the production was it all women who were doing that? No, it was a male director male musical with musicals loud it was great atmosphere and it was very creative but you're talking about power structure it does take someone at a level of power to say we all agree this is okay because I want to use you know, and if I was a director and I wanted to use an actor who had to come from New York, we're going to pay equity contract that's the deal, I want this person and so there's got to be more voices of power that say I want her and she's still nursing her baby so guess what can we cast one of our volunteers as a rehearsal care? I dare to suggest that part of my pay I'm not suggesting that I just got cast in a fall shadow and lives with us more to take care of my baby but never and I'm very close to the director and I think the director but I've never even occurred if I'm done, right? because of the money part of it because it's you're more of a pain in the fanny yeah you're marking yourself as a me actor or just you know in some sense it's just sort of like that's yourself take care of it yeah, I mean you're sort of bringing your work, your homework to work and probably because I think it would be different I don't know if you're rehearsing during the day this is a company you know like so it rehearsed at night we're also in our district dealing with quality opportunities we have so many different kinds of theaters in the area so we have these million you know people that have an endowment, a season structure a large large staff lots of shows every semester or every semester as that season season subscribers large staff do the same amount of production do the same amount of production every year they can rely on that regularly then we have sort of middle of the road people that have a building and they do some shows but they house in a lot of other people and then we have a lot at least like about I think like 16 a tenor company which basically sort of job bounce around productions are done and regularly as they can be based on that so also too I always think to trying to hold each one of those sets of groups accountable or compare what they do or how they make their choices seems a little difficult because they are not working or not working on the same ground that's right that being said a place that has a large institutional structure like a business should be able to be a space where if you have it I have care of issues you know what I mean if part of your work is affected by how you need to take care of your children you should be able to voice that or have a space for that and I don't think not because anybody is mean or horrible but I just think because it's not it isn't part of the culture because if I teach in Raleigh I would make mention of the fact that the gaps in our work gases were high I would say dude I can't take this job I'm gonna lose money and I pay me enough to do for gas but I would never say you're not paying me enough I'll lose money for the child care you're paying me $3 an hour and I'm paying $10 an hour a day job kind of issue of other commitments to other theater companies types of issues there are definitely other get-failing vacations that people have brought to us and you know we either can't work with them or we can't work with them but they were brought to you but they were at least gracious yeah so I guess part of what I asked you especially was it was amazing and I think it's like even examining it but there's something in the back of your brain that says no I don't think running my own theater at the high school where I have the most autonomy and the most power when my child has to crash or herself I feel less professional yes you better not have any hearing aids a day job either because any kind of day job that you have is enough to have an item is inevitably going to have to be so small with such discreet requirements that you can actually do it and you know be independent whatever and not fail horribly and embarrass yourself and that you're not going to really advance their honor so you're almost kind of trapped in this limbo that's a problem in this area right but yeah there's less funding so there aren't less professional but I'm a huge advocate for getting people to ask for things even if it's just asking for a little more money because I'm sorry it's a profession it's a profession it's my profession for a long time they are an occupation you kind of have to give yourself that way if you call yourself a serving artist please don't raise that it's perpetuating in our culture that you're not supposed to be paid for your skills that's absurd well I just think about this new Cleannier's campaign this past year it's been artworks like engine of the arts we just have a major report that's been touted all over North Carolina about how much money arts groups are bringing into the economy in the states where they're working on that and we have this sort of feel like there's this strange disconnect maybe it's a little bit to what you said about not being human is that yes it is a business it is an engine we need to invest and we need to think about work but then when it comes to this sort of thing then you might offend somebody who's not going to hire you the next time around we're family there's this kind of informality of how people work or how companies work and that sort of thrives on people sort of being differential and not going over that we're all starving and we're all on the shoestring and therefore I won't really walk in and go this is unacceptable or I can't work like this this is my likelihood and therefore these things have to change so there's again a bit of a tension between what we're trying to I think represent for ourselves nationally and as a professional and then how we work within our institutions especially because so many of them are struggling so many companies hand to mouth and so you don't want to you don't want to not have the opportunity you don't want to be the person that sort of says to the company that's just like you you know no I'm sorry you know these are the things that I must have because negotiation doesn't happen when you're in triage mode right right you're not on the ground to really have a a rational a roll out play on the conversation although I mean I would say that I'm sure you guys have this experience too my experience is that we get a role especially locally the work that we do in the art that we make the relationships that we have with each other and so so this is a great opportunity to really dig into those relationships and have conversations in particular I'm excited about these we call them the itinerant companies because we have just addressed some of these things because the name of the name there is being flexible and I realize that and I realize that with you know a lot of the itinerant companies that the finances aren't there to pay the level of some of the other you know more quote professional companies because I do think that even the smallest companies are special they can't pay at that level but there might be some other opportunities there that are really worth investigating and there is something beyond just paying for child learning there's a lot that can be done about making accommodations or whatever they might be with the smaller companies the companies that have more funding sort of adopt itinerant you know and kind of boost them a little bit and get in the work thinking about the quality experience I was thinking what is the most quality experience I've had and I was thinking the most quality experience I had in theater in the triangle and I think it's for the very reason that we had such a diverse group of women was the production of the I directed in 2000 and we made a conscious choice to try to represent every single woman so we had all sexual organizations represented and we cast with like from an 18 year old American girl to a 9 year old Jewish woman and like we tried to cover all the bases so we had a rainbow of women and the strength that came out of the diversity you know we do do theater groups who are like us our audiences are like us and the more I think this group is a great idea because the more you can use social media to extend your diversity then you have a 17 year old volunteer who doesn't mind watching your kid for the opportunity to get a credit on their application for NYU like the larger you have the more you have the ability to fill in the pieces but I do think that one of the things about our smaller companies and our larger companies they're isolated like if you're a professional company and you know all the equity actors and you're isolated and you don't know that oh all those leakos that we have downstairs that nobody's had time to fix they'll take them fix them, use them for their show and return them because they had a massive amount of volunteer right and so those kinds of resources that could be shared relationships I feel like it's hard because of the geography of this area you don't hear what's going on I don't know if there is one resource that I don't know about to hear more stuff but I always feel like I'm trying to find out and I can't find it just one resource there's not many resources at all the communication in this area well this is the big fifth again I mean I have a list of 36 theater companies in the triangle and that's including those that are embedded in schools and those that have no online presence except for companies that only produce when they have a show and money and to do it and even within this it's really, it's very difficult to know because if you also are only if you have this kind of money and you're focusing on the show building a web presence right so having that as an outlet is not necessarily even available to you in the same kind of way it's getting better, people are using Facebook things that are free but they still require maintenance, absolute sort of update as well as big companies still necessarily like even just trying to research how many women were directing or how many plays you can't find it you can find maybe the name of it but if you dig I found some by reading reviews to find out who directed because it's not on the season announcement as well as like I said at the very beginning hard to know who's designing the entire breadth of the women that are working on pieces that they're themselves so awesome so jumping off of that I think there are two ways I'm going to do the second one first how do we as female peer artisans collaborate we've obviously touched on some of the ways but there's a disconnect as far as the feeling of competition of competing with each other and versus collaborating with each other that women you know a couple of saying you didn't want to be the director who only did the plays about you know but there are women out there who get into a niche of whatever it is and I'm not talking like just their inherent abilities I mean I'm a proxmaster that is my skill set and so that is what I do but for people who have many skill sets and who could do anything but they instead tend to focus on one thing and then they fight to keep that versus supporting it collaborating so that everybody gets a piece of the product so that I knew I was going to do it and I was like yeah I'd like to do it and I would get rule about it but I think it's a little bit cultural and it's a little in our DNA sort of like you have to kind of recognize that so you can just let it go because we don't need to be that way but I think we give our power away when we do that because I think we should we have as women of course a huge inch when we're doing and driving everything of course that our that the male gender has but I don't think tell me my mom but I think we have all that and when we go to work and we go like crappie we can but I think what we learn to do is connect I think we're great at connection and collaborating but if we have all that our ideas and our creativity and instead of going to keep going to collaborate I think that's very powerful but I remember someone responding yeah but I remember someone responding to your comment and agreeing and saying that you know part of that that that it comes from the fact that they're so so few things for us to work I mean I'm speaking of after but I mean I lost a friendship because I went my friend and I went to this audition together and we were both called back for this thing and I was rooting for her and I do think she was rooting for me too but then when I got it and she didn't she didn't talk to me and I just we thought publicly about it but it was really really heartbreaking and and I think that that's part of where this I mean that's definitely where the conversation from at pay that started at Pages House came from is just is that there's so few things I mean that I'm speaking as an actress in this particular case there's so few things for us I mean you know there's always going to be more women more women performers than men but that's the thing is there you know I don't know what the maybe but I mean I feel as though there are five or six or seven of us for every one of them and yet all the plays that chosen for this upcoming season I mean that was the original discussion is that if you look at the theaters that have posted their seasons and have announced them and those are the favorite ones but let's be honest I mean if you look at their seasons the majority of them are majorly male majorly male and they're not gonna and you can say well that's just the play you know the director might have a different but most of them are gonna be cast wither it and now there's anything wrong with that but um I mean when it comes down to it that's why there's that competition because it's really not about I mean for some women it may be that may be part of the joy for them this is competing and winning but most of us it's just it's primal it's because we want to work I agree that that is a carry of the coal line I've been an educator and when collaboration happens in education is when resources are abundant and when resources get rare like you're on that roller coaster as an educator like you see that like people are collaborating when resources are plentiful and as it pairs down that things start to guard ours and again thinking about this conversation being positive I looked to models and I thought of both hands I thought of Diane Paulus I think that sometimes I thought of Lisa Brennan that one of the things that you can do is kind of a stone soup that if you want art to be plentiful for you do it like shut up and write your show do your show you know I think about my friend Mack Rogers who did a beautiful thing with his play universe of robots and flip genders like historically most of the research Kaarell and Joseph were the brothers well he didn't have that many men in his company he had women so he changed Joseph to Josephine and made them brothers and sisters and made Rosa the the dead widow who thought she was her husband because that's how he could justify he had a woman to play that role and now a guy so when you're creating for the people that you already have a relationship with who are women that you want to work with you're going to make spaces for them right and so that's what we need to do is start to communicate like oh want to do a project like this let's go do this quick bitch and start a revolution well I haven't had a lot of play to a director or a producer said this is the one I want to do if I haven't oh and I know I'm just misunderstanding about scarcity I agree with all of this at some point you just gotta make a whole new pie you miss the pie thing is there a talk about pie? I'm surprised there were some girls from three boys this is such an interesting age group because the maturity between the both of them wasn't their girls in the high it's very different and the girls you know they feel that they're competing and they get scared they get scared if you move your eyes away from one actor to another actor so you know you know it's a big book of Shakespeare girl just get yourself a sonnet and rock that sonnet they know that they're making because originally it was written for them anyway but you know it's weird though I find that as a director it makes the women I have ticked from really really good I'm just going for a choice if I do a show I'm going to let you live in it right, right you've got to be a pretender I was approached by a director recently to direct a show time flies when you're crazy but it was an all-male show he said you know I really think you need to do this he was selling it for us he said you need to stop doing all this woman stuff and I said what are you meaning and he quoted a couple of shows that I did that yes they had a 100% female cast cast who says you know it's just economics man I mean the fact is the labor market was richer for the women I don't think I can cast this play so I passed on it I mean the timing was bad for me but then someone else handed it to someone else I presume a man he passed on it too because it wasn't castable because it just wasn't it wouldn't work so it's all about casting which you can cast because directing is 90% casting anyway the other 10% but you know I haven't just done all the female shows but again it's a mindset it's a mindset because when it's an all-man show we don't call it a man show you know what I'm saying we have no problem accepting the fact that boys and girls and girls can play boys and that's the way it always was however very few theaters look at a show and go you know what if we didn't do this just straight realism I mean we didn't do it just and it doesn't have to be that far off I think about Julie Fischel in Angels in America the role that narrow street also made famous if you have the available resource and you do it can really add a foil to a character to play it on a gender that is opposite and you have can't you rack your brain around that and use the available resource do you high school girls have been doing it for forever there's a collaboration for everything it's mostly on a level because because I haven't done a lot of acting recently I've mostly been doing directing playwriting and producing and I believe really felt the competition thing I really have felt supported by other women urge on are you bringing the project to the table are you the one primarily responsible for the selection, the production and the directing I'm really talking about stuff that we do without because I think that's where I think that's where the distinction happens I think there are lots of people out there making their own opportunities either because the structures that already exist aren't workable within our own lives whether it's artistically we want to say I'd like to work this way and this is the way I'm going to be so we aren't our shows are competing for audiences and we're competing for that ticket dollar but we're not necessarily competing as opposed to in an institutional theater setting and that sounds like theater is an institute but like one in a like a playmaker's I'll use it just because it's the one I think of it when you have to staff that then it becomes about selection that's controlled by an artistic director and I think the process is different you get cast as a director I mean you get so there's a distinction between what we might think when we do it ourselves or we have long-standing relationships with companies right that have people in it that we've worked with that we do their show and they do our show and so there is a kind of symbiosis around it we're bringing all the resources to bear as opposed to the resources are being established by a larger structure and we're trying to get into that so I think that the question has been short yes I think it is definitely an attitude but I think that going back to the whole as you get power it changes it starts at the lower end there is that competition but it's in the higher you go and I would not assume both that male AD's artistic directors do not cast thoughtfully about gender and do not select seasons about gender I mean I still it's difficult to see sometimes but I'm keeping this thought in my head that I don't think it's an immediate gender thing nor do I think a female AD is automatically going to choose a season that has lots of women hire lots of women do a lot of that I mean I think that that too and our expectations about either the roadblocks we're going to hit or the collaboration we're going to find cannot be based solely on gender they have to be based on larger structures than that because those things I think have an impact on how people conduct themselves how they see themselves sort of arguing or wanting to make a name or saying we do this kind of theater and therefore my choices are based on these kinds of things not anything else I agree with Sheryl but I have never had that personally I think that on a personal level this artists community is incredibly inclusive incredibly collaborative I would really say as an educator who thinks about the fear that I see in the season that it shows in the kinds of ways that we as women are in the conversation philosophically because I also then have those discussions with my students like I went to see blah blah blah blah and I was really surprised there were not a lot there was not a lot of ethnicity on the stage so there wasn't when my young girls come back from trying on costumes that we borrowed from the large equity educational theater and all the engineering dresses are size 2 or lower right that says something to them so for me those things are far more of when I go see doubt and it's not about the women right like I talk to my girls that has a great way for women and we go and it's about the priest a pest and so those are more frequent irritations for me and I think that it's this subtle thing that we all know to be politically correct so we all know to sit at the table and blah blah blah blah blah blah is the things that get missed that the in group sees that you go oh I'm still not heard I'm still not seen and someone like me was not at the table to bring it up at the outset you know like those are the things that are kind of like being blindsided and that's when I get my like you know that's when I get my competitiveness up I'm like God where did God that felt I definitely felt that but not as a competition with other women no but I'm like why is that not ours that kind of being mad about that it doesn't serve to send a nasty email to the Guthrie how that changes is that there was somebody at the table who was like uh how do we feel about that I don't know that this is kind of offensive to me that that person wasn't at the table that's what we're angry about and that doesn't change without just sending nasty emails I mean the benefit of the blow up about the Guthrie season has been a little bit of institutional hopefully not navel gazing but the flexibility about really I mean a lot of women sort of going it's 2012 we're still having a question about writers I mean do you know what I mean is this sort of thing I don't doubt that it exists my first job on my MFA I was a guest artist at the university and I was doing a direct piece and had lots of women and so I was cross-gender casting and a lot of them were saying wow I really like this stuff I just don't know and I was doing a play by man and she said I just don't please my women and I was like okay fine you don't know you're gonna know and I'm me at bibliography all my issues American theater sort of there I think it was the year Oleana was the most done play ever you know across the nation and so I was really desperate to try and say no no really I'm not making it up there are women that write theater and you can do this theater and all this stuff and enjoy and some of those plays are awful and we don't do them anymore because they're not really great plays but some of these plays are really really wonderful and could be equally done as much as we do plays if we just knew about them because that was 1997 right? we're having this discussion again and I contribute again to another friend who's trying to put together a list of large cast plays of four women actors as well as five women and just sort of looking back at my bibliography going I can't believe I'm still having this conversation and I feel sort of like now that I let those women down but then I sort of like what's the training of the next generation going to be there's lots of men that are participating in these drama camps one of the better the sort of parody of season is happening department of dramatic art at UNC nine shows happening in their undergraduate theater six of them are directed by women compared to the 25 26 out of the 88 across the triangle so that's a really whether they're all going to be Tony or women directors whether they're all going to want to have careers in the theater but they are working now and so feeling a little bit of an obligation to sort of say how do I get at the table I want to know for a long time I just have my own company and that's how I will make this fit I will make my own table and we will sit at it children come you cannot maintain that anymore if I'm still wanting to affect the profession and I'm still seeing this large disconnect institutionally not amongst people but a bunch of institutions that do theater that seems something I still sort of tilting that window I'm still going to do it maybe you're not going to be able to point is that the idea that there aren't very good places there aren't many very good places on women and that therefore when there is play by a woman that we're doing that it's an event it can't just be that it's just we're directing this play it's got to be an event it's not just it goes back to there's going to be an all female production which is the second that's going to happen in August or September but it's an event it's going to be an event because it's an all female it can't just be there it's also the same women so we're doing women we're doing Lin Na Hedge these are fantastic playwrights but again it's sort of like we find the whole woman we're doing Lin Na Hedge, Sarah Ruhle Lorraine Hainsbury, Diana Sun these are all fantastic playwrights I want to see them until the end of time but I also want to see lots of other names so we need structures where we get to see our support female playwrights for other companies in this area right so we've got about 5 minutes left so we've got about 5 minutes left yes I know OK right quick like I said at the beginning this is just the start of a conversation this is not just all of anything or to come up with a great master plan or anything like a master plan but but I really want to briefly touch on the subject that Jules kind of touched on as well because there is this giant theory between companies that we have here this is almost a yes or no question but please elaborate do we hold them all to the same standard for women as women working in the theater do we expect a small company that does a play to have 50% female inclusion as we would show the season that does not work or is there a relation to take the question and have answers to that but I wonder if that is if that is the question do we actually need to be comparing those theaters or can we just stay generally can we see improvements you know what I mean with the companies against each other and some sort of partnership but rather to take every individual company and say can we just see improvement in yours that seems at least to me to be hopefully more attainable and secondly to be more to move less in the direction of that competitive mess that we are kind of talking about and also to just raise awareness for each individual company to see themselves instead of saying well we're better than this company we've got but rather to just say let's reflect on what we're doing can we make some changes are there areas to be improved on this I would also maybe have some questions about whether 50% inclusion is good second of all is 50% I'm just throwing it at you I know you were suggesting that as this is what we're trying to do but I sort of wanted to touch on that just a little bit because we have 100% he I present it diminishes the experience of when you don't have all voices at the table there was a great Woody Guthrie he was the most non-card carrying guy there was and that he could never be like you know because then he would exclude someone and that's really the beauty of theater theater is an opportunity for us to come together as a community and examine the community and grow together right it's the catalyst for growth and change for the community on disc and life unintentionally I think you do have to hold them to the same standard of how they're extending the image and 50-50 again what my problem with that is it's usually playwrights and directors many many more people working does that mean 50-50 actors does that mean 50-50 scene designers again companies that have 100% staff and I think what I found was very cathartic to do this research and I'm happy to share what I have but I also think that it was really eye-opening to see certain structures and I think companies that aren't always doing that about everything get stale in many more ways that don't have anything necessarily to do with women's opportunities there's stale theater that's happening there so it's always good for companies to look all through their structures from who they're hiring to who's on stage and how to the plays that they choose within that and the directors that and the marketing campaigns around that so I think what the benefit of this is that we're not going to solve it tonight and not just the people in competition but to sort of open the books in some sense and say this is what's happening at this theater, not to damn it but just to say that's what it looks like right now they're helping with it if you think it's the way it's working terrific if you want to make changes there are lots of people and lots of talent that can help diversify that okay before everybody else starts watching this your voices tonight thank you to Jaylin for letting me be the artist and for this conversation if you haven't seen the 10 by 10 yet there are lots of good artists in that on every single slide and thank you all for our audience for joining us and we invite your being part of the conversation as well and to how we're out in life and let me play to you for life's journey tonight just be helpful again and I still use 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