 I'm Joshua Cooper and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around our world on think tech live? Broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii and Moana, New York Yeah, today's episode focuses on advocacy and diplomacy the ability for change look at human rights and the rule of law for all and Today we're looking at the University of New South Wales diplomacy training program and we're joined by Michael Michael Thank you so much for participating today Real pleasure to be here Josh What first inspired you to get involved with the diplomacy training program and share a bit about the exciting advocacy work that you do? Yeah, very happy to do that. I was Giving a presentation to students at the University of New South Wales About pro bono in law firms, which is my day job is in a large law firm in Australia And I was sitting next to a person by the name of Patrick Earl who was also speaking to those students about other opportunities in the pro bono and human rights space and When I heard Patrick's presentation, I immediately said to him My firm has to work with DTP as you know as much as we can. How can we support you? What the diplomacy training program does is it gives human rights advocates right throughout the Asia Pacific region which We interpret very broadly from, you know, Fiji all the way through to say Lebanon With the tools To make change in their own communities and their own countries and we give them training in the UN System and How to make a difference within the UN system. That's really the foundation of DTP's story and we also Give them specific topic training. So we've done Topics such as migrant workers the rights of the child are the rights of women Environmental causes and particularly indigenous rights throughout the region as well the other thing that the diplomacy training program does incredibly well is link all of the people who come to our programs with like-minded civil society advocates right throughout the region and With the diplomacy core of many of the major nations In who have embassies right throughout the region. So Australia the USA, Canada, New Zealand Switzerland many of the European countries as well as each other's embassies as well We were founded by President as he again is Dr. Jase Ramos-Horta the current president of Timor-Leste and who were founded the University of New South Wales when Jase was In Australia as a refugee During the Indonesian occupation of Timor and he was Struggling to find a way to communicate The people of Timor-Leste's plight to the world And through another one of our pioneers the late Dr. Gatnetheim found an ally who stood with him and Together they worked to promote the interests of First of the people of Timor-Leste But then they founded the diplomacy training program to give those skills to other civil society advocates throughout the region. So that's Synopsis of the DTP. We're now about 33 years old and we have tens of thousands of alumni right throughout the region Many of whom are doing well most of them are doing incredible things In the civil society space, but also many of whom have gone in to serve their countries In their foreign affairs cause in the diplomatic cause or in their government problem No, it's exciting to see really because it's an example of each one teach one in With president again, Joseph Ramos-Horta in his role He truly really shares the stories of how he did that but then also Still writing still doing advocacy work still involved. It wasn't just one job It was a joy and it is exciting as they're coming up on independence for a quarter of a century that still They host the meetings. They have the annual program there And maybe you can share a bit about what other courses are coming up and how people can be involved Yes, certainly. Well, first of all the plug for our website, which is DTP.org.au And that will give you the full list of our upcoming programs There's a really exciting one coming up in in May in Thailand, which is going to be a coming together of a number of civil society leaders and advocates throughout the region to discuss how best human rights can be taught and advanced throughout the Asia-Pacific region What's working in human rights and Sort of capacity building in the human rights space. What's not working? what You know, we as the DTP can do to facilitate the advancement of human rights and human rights advocacy in that space and also the advancement of democracy in in that area because in many cases, not always, but in many cases those two things are linked and When you see a deterioration in the rule of law and democracy in countries, you also see a deterioration in human rights So how we can support those things You know as we get into the middle of the 21st century and How we can support the people who are on the ground Advocating for Change in their countries It's really cool because this is the year we're almost half of humanity votes and Participates in government and we know that really human rights education is at the core of Creating that culture of rule of law and advancing what is most important to the people and one of the skills and Exactly excellent experiences that happens with DTP is number one There is the course there are the trainings There is the sharing of that knowledge of the UN system the human rights charter and the treaty bodies But also that peer-to-peer Solidarity that's built through the participants and how they then fuel each other and help each other as they focus on fundamental freedoms Maybe you could share a bit as well about the annual program That's coming up in Timor-Leste and how that usually coincides also with the celebration or commemoration of the independence of the nation from really colonial times with Portugal and the Netherlands But then as you were sharing earlier that 25-year stretch of the brutal occupation Indonesia and how then Timor-Leste was able to be have Jose Ramos Horto be at the UN on a daily basis Work to make sure the world understood the plight of his people and then make sure that they could then create a country That's built on democracy and ensuring that that dignity of all of its people are upheld and promoted Yep. Look at our annual program. I mean, let me just check the date of the annual program I'm pretty sure it's in August this year is It's a wonderful thing it really is celebration of Human rights in civil society building in a country That is rare in the sense that It is founded on the very principles that we teach and discuss in the annual program And the people who come to the annual program inevitably get to meet and spend time with President Ramos Horto Jose is a force of nature and a lot of fun And has some really great stories about his time as a civil society advocate and also his time as a teacher at the diplomacy training program and some of the things that You know, he got up to when he was teaching human rights around the region the But you're right. It's it coincides with the celebration of Timor-Leste's independence And it really is a moving time to be in Timor-Leste From us you get a sense that the country just has so much hope and so much potential And when you're there for a celebration like this, you really see it come to the full and the people there are You know committed to their democracy, which is a wonderful thing and you know, they've been several successful transitions of power and You know like any politics not everybody sees eye to eye, but everybody does Think to work in the political space for the benefit of the country and the benefit of people and that's really, you know the sort of thing that DTP does celebrate and also we work with some of the local civil study Organisations the Justice Monitoring Program Inevitably partners with us and they do wonderful things in making sure that The rule of law in Timor-Leste Remains at the forefront of how the country is governed and that's a That's a remarkable thing and the people who work with that organisation are really a credit to both the organisation and the nation We also get in some fabulous teachers possibly a self Josh And you know along with I mean, I think last time I was there Brigidier Dan Dan who's one of the UN's special reporters Came out and taught Several of the faculty from the University of New South Wales Came out and taught and it really is you know great to hear these Experience perspectives from people who've been in the human rights and civil society fields for their entire careers Making change and passing on what's worked for them for the next generation of civil society advocates No, what you shared reminds me of so many points that we could go into you know number one Timor-Leste being there on the ground you really do It makes you reflect on what we have in the countries that are democracies how fragile it is But also how vibrant it is and how many people around the world Still are striving for those basic human rights and fundamental freedoms And you see that in the face of the people in Timor that they've been able to secure it And how sacred it is and that they'll do everything to maintain that the other aspect Of course that you share is the participants the participants are so inspiring because they're doing so much work there and The work that they're doing at home They take a couple weeks out of their time and then are able to go back and apply exactly what they've learned And then that last part that you're sharing really of looking at the the the trainers the trainers are Not people who are sages on stages who talk about something But who are actually involved in and serving on UN bodies who are actually doing the work and then are able to almost plug the youth into the processes right away and be able to then Take from what they've been doing at home at the community level and in their capitals To the global civil society and then be able to utilize these united nation mechanisms to make a difference at their home and see those changes Yeah, absolutely The students are the most inspiring part of these programs you've learned so much from them you gain so much from their energy the you know the commitment they have to making their communities a better place is really inspiring and When they get a chance to meet other people who are doing the same thing They just rebound off each other for you know the entire program Their ideas get better their methods get better They learn as much from each other as as they do from the trainers And they just develop and join this great network that is the diplomacy training program of people who? They can stay in contact with share their experiences with teach and learn from It's true. There's this exponential engagement. There's this sense of you can see people Connect in a couple of ways I know people connect on on passionate issues such as West Papua But they're also doing things similar at home and where they thought maybe they were alone before and the only one By meeting the other participants there they realize they're part of this larger family that's focusing on freedom and also more importantly showing what's possible and And also being in team or that sense of solidarity you would think maybe after 25 years People would be focusing on making their country better only or focusing inward But there's that sense of solidarity for Western Sahara for self-determination for anyone anywhere on earth They don't forget what they've been through and they want to make sure that everyone else has that opportunity to fully engage and Experience all of their range of human rights that are embodied in the Universal Declaration human rights as well as the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous people Yeah, absolutely As we look at those programs and we see what's important going on Maybe could we could look at some of the work that you're doing? You know you do a lot of pro bono We know we show the aspect of what important role lawyers can play and advocates to Contribute back to society. What are some of the big topics that you think are most important as we look at human rights education? Certainly, well, I can certainly share some of the things I've done So I'm a partner in a law firm called course chambers West Garth and I'm I Specialized in mitigation and cyber security. That's my day job. I also lead the firms pro bono Practice in Sydney along with one of my partners Mark Payne and we have a national leader Dr. Phoebe win Pope who's a well-known Human rights expert in her own right We've done some really interesting things in The areas of indigenous rights in the areas of the UN Special repertoire programs which I'm happy to talk about and We're looking at some interesting things as well including possibly in conjunction with the DTP In the area of how cybersecurity and AI and I suppose The abuse of human rights online might be addressed Both for civil society advocates or the victims of these sorts of things but also by civil society advocates in their own countries So they did that that's an it's something interesting that's coming up So the work that I do ranges from representing people who have problems with access to justice And you know in Australia like every wealthy country there are people who just don't have the same access to their rights as the rest of the country and Pro bono program is very very passionate about supporting people like that and making sure that We would say they get a fair shake of the stick and That's something that the firm's done for the entire 25 years. I've been at the firm the I There's some interesting things that we've done recently in the UN space One of which was to assist an Australian Human rights advocate no else in Banway. Noel is a Rwandan man Who Was targeted by the Rwandan government He's a leader amongst the African diaspora in Australia He was approached by the Rwandan government essentially the spy for them He declined to do so and the Rwandan government disappeared two of his brothers back in Rwanda and It's an absolutely tragic story It's still makes me quite angry, but we assisted Noel in conjunction with a UK based Australian barrister Jennifer Robinson who's a very well-known human rights advocate We assisted Noel and I also should say the Australian Human Rights Institute led by Justine Nolan Who is another fabulous human rights leader in Australia and a professor at the University of South Wales and a former colleague of mine on the board of the DTP So together we worked with Noel to bring his case to the UN special rapporteur on enforced involuntary Disappearances and they've taken up his case and they've made There's been a number of steps Since we bought that that have drawn attention to the issue of the Rwandan government disappearing political opponents and you know people who are even less than political opponents poets and various other innocent people so That's something that the firm has We have worked on for many years now with Noel and It's a You know nothing we do will bring his brothers back, but hopefully we'll find some answers for him and will make him Make his story more well-known and you know Determine the Rwandan government from this conduct as much as possible Yeah, it's a tragic thing When governments behave in that manner We've also recently done a project for Leetona Dungay whose son was killed In custody in Australia Leetona's an Indigenous woman her son was an Indigenous man and that he was killed in Long Bay Jail and There just hasn't been sufficient justice for Leetona. So we've Done some work with her and the National Justice Project again in exploring whether these are matters that might be brought before UN special record tour programs to shine light on the issues in Australia David Dungay's death was a Real black wise matter moment for Australia and it's it's an important it's an important issue and it's important that Appropriate attention is given To the circumstances of his death and the change that needs to be made in the strain system we have a terrible history of as we refer to the black deaths in custody and It hasn't got better there've been royal commissions There many many years ago the recommendations of which have never been Enacted and it's something that governments on all sides of politics have failed to address properly So that's certainly something that in Australia You know it requires urgent political action at our end and Who would benefit from the international spotlight Those two examples of very global affairs and ground-direct action showed the breadth and depth of what DTP teaches and the example on Rwanda with the special procedures. I mean the UN Human Rights Council Still has so many amazing independent experts Rapporteurs and working groups and by sharing that the exciting part is students know they don't have to wait To a review happens under one of the treaty bodies But that they could take immediate action that they can shine that light and make sure that the world is aware of what's happening And by you sharing that example in Rwanda it also highlights what we see around the world of really transnational regression internal interference by countries in the democracy processes and really Challenging and shrinking that civil society space but pointing out how we can use the global mechanisms to push back to show What's important and then definitely with destined custody and looking at this situation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders It's that everyone can coordinate in their own communities to use these UN mechanisms in a way to what Patrick can always refer to as sort of like a human rights panini or a Or a burger where you squeeze from the grassroots down where you know the truth But use the global UN mechanisms to kind of squeeze the state and see the truth come out and make sure That what you're doing at the ground matters and that the world of course reinforces What you know you're facing but could be in very difficult challenging times where it feels like there's never the right answer Or that the justice isn't coming about but your two examples there show what is possible and just give examples of what we can all do together Yeah, no that that's right, and it's a it's a it's a sample of the work the firm has done But I think they're they're two issues that have both local and global significance Yeah, the issue of indigital testing custody is not by any means unique to Australia every country with a minority indigenous population has the same issue and I think it's It's important that that is addressed You know locally and globally So that you know governments of all stripes and all types understand that it's not acceptable Yeah, and it reminds me we know the UN committee on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination Sir as a history with the early warning urgent action focusing on Australia But we know a certain review is coming up So it's one of those examples of them being able to coordinate and assist DTP alumni as well as advocates in the country to put pressure on the country to at least Kind of pick that low-hanging mango of what's possible that immediately could be done But also those structural system changes. That's possible. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I Know we're getting close, but I know you're also doing some exciting work And we know advocacy and diplomacy creates that culture of human rights dedicated to an air indignancy And ensures everyone can contribute to a better world in their own community and global civil society Maybe you could share a bit about your new Passion and aware the new idea because the human rights is never stagnant. It's always evolving We could share that new training program you're considering focusing artificial intelligence and online and Discuss that way that advocates can dedicate time and skills to serve humanity Contribute to that system of rule of law rooted in equality for all. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Josh. We We are working on And I should say it's at the very early stage I'm very grateful to some of the volunteers at the privacy training program for pulling this together but we're working on a concept note in relation to cyber security AI and human rights and That builds on the UN global compact on digital rights one of the things that I think Lore in general, but you know international or in particular has difficulty with is any fast-moving environment and There's no doubt the digital space Is that you know, it's probably 20 years old In the form we currently know it but in those times it's already gone undergone three revolutions and We are now, you know riding the wave of a AI driven revolution as well and In many ways that has Enabled and empowered civil society advocates to take direct action Sometimes a great personal expense and and Julian Assange is an example of that but It also comes with risks to human rights advocates it also Comes with a set of rules or laws that are applied Inconsistently and I think what we would like to explore is whether a program that both promotes The rights of civil society advocates online and also builds a framework for the continued role of civil society on the internet Playing their role in moving cultures forward. So some of the things we'll look at there are cybersecurity and cyber safety possibly doxing and You know what rules and laws should be applied to that Australia's currently having a review initiative last week by the Attorney General as to whether Anti-doxing laws should be strengthened and that Comes on the back of some doxing of some advocates arising from Their expression of views on on the tragedy in Palestine alone The other areas which I think are interesting is the role of AI Whether that's the development of AI that shares Views that may be unwelcome or unorthodox in certain countries But necessary for the development of civil society You know, you can certainly see and I'm sure it exists already in some countries versions of AI That will not give correct answers about things like human rights democracy rule of law So ensuring that Those concepts are protected As these technologies are developed. I think it's very important. I think it's something that We as DTP can assist because of how large I suppose our large footprint across the region will bring many many perspectives To these sort of issues. So as I said very early stage That's something that I'm very very excited about and I know DTP is very excited about and I'm hopeful Mike is way into a training program sometimes it It's exact example of really that Extension and the library of liberation that does exist with DTP that there's business in human rights courses when business Was starting to be seen as an important role with the global compact, but also with the UN, you know Business and human rights framework emerging with the forum as well as the important aspects of what's going on with the guiding principles Indigenous peoples rights, of course at the core of what DTP does and so now you're just sharing the latest giant wave That we have to make sure that we can train future generations So that be able to not drown in these new roles But make sure that the legacy of human rights and rule of law continues going forward. Thank you so much for joining us We appreciate you With the work that you do on a daily basis in Australia and around the world and sharing a bit about the diplomacy training program Here in Hawaii and around Asia Pacific region. Mahalo. Mahalo Josh. Thank you