 Hi, I'm Gene Bergman. I'm the Ward 2 city counselor. That's an area in the old north end and I've lived in the old north end for most of about of over 50 years and I'm really happy to be here with you tonight for the first of the Burlington Progressive TV hour or show that we've had since the the pandemic started. So I'm really happy to bring this back and what we're going to hope to do in the course of the time is bring guests here to talk about really important and current issues facing the city, maybe facing the region and the state and perhaps the country and get us to be talking about things that may not be talked about generally. So I'm really excited about the the opportunity to do that and the first show that we've got is with Tyler Pastorock who's over here, hi Tyler, and he is with people for police accountability. He'll explain a little bit more who he is but this is to talk about the petition initiated and ballot item that was placed on the ballot will be on the the town meeting ballot this March in front of Burlington voters so that people can vote on the creation of a community control board for the police department and in particular police discipline. So thank you for being here Tyler how about if you just sort of introduce yourself briefly. Sure, thanks Gene. Yeah so I'm Tyler Pastorock, I'm a resident of Ward 8 so I live in downtown and I work in Burlington. I'm also involved in some mutual aid projects in downtown and yeah I've been engaged with different issues and city politics in Burlington for a few years now and among those I'm part of a group called People for Police Accountability and so we got together in the fall of 2020 and we're the group that has kind of been carrying this police oversight proposal forward through the the initial city council process and then gathering petition signatures over the last couple years and getting it on to the ballot. Great. How about a little bit more background for folks on the people who've been involved and the process that brought us to you know having this on the ballot now so including the petition. Yeah so back in 2020 folks will remember that all over the country policing and police abuse really came into focus around the country and Burlington was no exception to that and so particularly in the fall of 2020 black members of our community led a movement that brought into focus the fact that our city charter gives the police chief unchecked authority over disciplinary decisions in the police department and this movement focused on some pretty disturbing use of force cases with public body cam footage where members of our community sustained some life altering injuries or death and so because of the the charter and that the police chief has the the sole authority over disciplined decisions the best the city could do at this time was pay one of the officers $300,000 to resign and so as this particular part of the city charter which is kind of like our city's constitution and its state law so yeah part of that focus and the police chief having sole authority there the sort of demands and asks shifted to addressing that issue in the city charter and establishing a board of community members that in cases of police misconduct would have the authority to conduct investigations and make actual disciplinary decisions but so essentially at at the time you know protesters were we're bringing this into focus and then certain city counselors were picking up on the issue and wanted to work with them to develop a proposal and then you know also at the time you yourself were we're offering some legal advising in terms of the you know wording and nitty gritty of the proposal to help match you know what community members wanted to to build and then also there were influences from organizations like the ACLU Vermont had some guiding principles on on effective citizen oversight and so this was really a collaboration of members of the community who have actually experienced harm by policing you know currently or generationally from our city counselors and legal experts and and other organizations yeah I mean it's interesting that people complain now I think very wrongfully that this hasn't been vetted there hasn't been enough process but as you said I was involved with the community group and also as a staff person for for the city counselor who was putting it forward Perry Freeman and so there was actually a lot of vetting there were a lot of meetings of the charter change committee there was a lot of public input there was a lot of testimony at the the city council there were also involvement with the police commission so the the the argument that the people haven't sort of seen this and this just sort of has come out of the blue is really a rewriting of history which is is unfair it is unfair to you it's unfair to to Perry it's unfair actually to the city attorney the city attorneys who you know looked at this and and and worked at on it so um I'm I'm talk to me then to the sort of not quite fast forward we um we get to a point where the council votes seven to five to put this on the ballot for the I think it was the 2021 ballot and the mayor vetoes it and his veto is sustained talk a little bit about what people did um after that because it's been now a year year and a half or so since yeah so at that point I mean at first it was a big win that the city council passed it and um a shame that the the mayor mayor prevented people in the town from from actually voting on the proposal and so at that point that group of us that you know we've been calling ourselves people for police accountability we decided well there there's this other route to changing the city charter and if so if a proposal gets five percent signatures from five percent of registered voters in Burlington which amounts to I think it's um the actual number is is just under 1800 people but inevitably some of them become invalid or or things like that and so we had signatures from just over 2000 people and so we spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours talking to our neighbors knocking on doors going to public events gathering signatures um and so we actually did that for the year of 2021 um and didn't quite have the organizing power to to make contact with that many people it's not hard to find people who are willing to sign it and in support of the proposal but it it just takes a lot of time to talk to that many people um so then at that point and so that's a whole year of public engagement and hearing feedback and thoughts about this proposal um and some of the amendments that city council had made when they passed it and so at that point we decided well you know at this point we've we've gotten all this input and there are some edits that we we think could be made to this and and to make it more robust if it ends up going to the state and to incorporate some of the feedback we've gotten um so we sat down again um with you know legal advising and and and made some edits to the proposal to improve it and incorporate feedback that was gotten and so then we had to start from scratch in 2022 um kind of kicked off on town meeting day you might have seen us out at the polls um gathering yeah gathering signatures and so we spent the year 2022 gathering signatures um and we were successful that time around um and so once we submitted those signatures and the city clerk vetted them and validated them then it goes directly onto the ballot for the 2023 town meeting day yeah and and I would say before we get into the the the next point that that process the process that you've got has been in the charter for quite some time and it's really an effective um democratic uh a process that people can use if their government is not being responsive so um I mean it's really to you guys credit is not easy anybody who thinks that this is an easy process is has not spent the time to do it uh obviously now it goes before the voters so what in general before we get into particulars um are voters being asked to approve and uh expand if you you know on the reasons for it so we can reiterate yeah yeah so this proposal it focuses on the section of our city charter that gives the police chief um disciplinary authorities and so the first thing that that's sole yes gives the police chief sole disciplinary authority nobody else in the town not the mayor not the entire city council uh nobody at all has the authority to to discipline officers um except for the police chief and so this focuses on that section of the city charter the first thing that it does is strike that language and then it starts fresh by establishing a board now before I go forward that language comes back the the police chief still has the authority to discipline of all kinds and is still the first the the police's internal process is still the first process for for disciplinary decisions and this board has the authority to to step in and review or take up cases as they see fit um so get into those details a little bit yeah so this establishes a board of community members that uh in cases of police misconduct at their discretion can review investigations initiate their own investigations and make actual disciplinary decisions um so that I think includes um uh suspension uh reduction in rank and removal um are the the the three options there okay and uh again uh why yeah so I mean so the this movement in 2020 really brought into focus what happens what can happen to a community and trust in our public safety systems when when people in the community feel unsafe with with police officers you know having this level of authority and and using excessive force or things like that and if the police chief doesn't act in a way that feels alignment with what the community feels the city government the community nobody in the town has any recourse for that or or solution to that um and so that has uh resulted or perpetuated a pretty strong you know distrust um in this aspect of our public safety system particularly among folks who have experienced harm historically and and currently um and yeah so this this would allow community members away to step in and say hey this is not a person that we feel comfortable giving the authority to to you know respond to mental health crises at my home or respond to incidents armed and um you know we don't feel safe with them having that authority and and gives us gives the community the option to to say no to that um I would say that you know this is a fairly uh I'm gonna say current problem in that you know it's not something that just happened you know like years ago or even like three years ago I'm looking at a channel five story that says it was just a nightmare Vermont mother outraged over police response to teen in crisis and it's it's a very very disturbing story that channel five news on February 6 2022 um wrote about the responses and if you read the story the the transcript of the story um you'll see just how many problems there are with the current oversight system um and just for for folks to to understand um you know we're talking about this but all of the charter changes are um going to be there there the actual language is posted on the city's website and it's in an official copy that you can find on the clerk's website there is such a document there called the official copy and that was part of the warning for the hearings that a lot of people came out and were very supportive of of this proposal and um every charter change is listed in it and this one in particular which I think is going to be number seven on the ballot um starts on page nine and so you can just read through it and so I mean what people are asking me when uh you know when I'm talking about this well what do you want to leave people with and that I say you should read the you should read it and then you should call if you have questions about it or questions about why you can call Tyler you can call me you can you know reach out to at least get an understanding of what it is that is said in here if you want more clarification about it and how it all fits together so um and if I could add um a really easy way to find the full language of this proposal if you type in people for police accountability dot com there's a website has the full language of the proposal and other you know descriptions of the rationale timelines of events surrounding police in our town um so that's available great great so um want to get into some of these details now yeah um and I think and I think that the the way that I I'd like to to approach it is actually by um posing the criticisms that the mayor has uh has raised and then ask you to give your thoughts about them so yeah we're just gonna run gonna run through some and that that sounds great if I could just build on the the why very briefly um regarding the mayor so this the problem with the police chief having sole disciplinary authority isn't a problem that only a minority of people think is an issue um back in 2021 after uh he vetoed this proposal the mayor himself acknowledged that this is a real problem um and he said and and this is a quote that the current charter is problematic and that there is urgency to amend it he further stated that such monopoly of important authority is an aberration in our democratic system and we are likely to face continued disputes over future disciplinary actions until this issue is addressed and he was right about that um and at the time he promised to address these issues with our charter uh and since then racial disparities and policing have persisted um but here we are over two years later and even the mayor's latest public safety plans have no mention of addressing this fundamental issue with the charter um and so it's really critical that we take this opportunity where thousands of voters have put this on the ballot um to to move this forward you know it's ironic it was just posted today there's going to be a resolution I will be opposing this resolution on this coming Monday night that actually blames the lack of progress on strengthening the role of the commission and and and oversight on this petition as if this was somehow the people's fault but as always it seems um an easy way you blame the victims happens all the time and so here you all put this in in December I think it was like at the end of December and it's like barely a month and a half and they've had two years and all of a sudden you're starting to hear from the other side this um desire for oversight I'm actually stunned but let's let's go over some of the ideas because we're running uh shorter of time they say that the proposal gives exclusive authority over BPD to the community board is that true no that's not true um yeah so the the existing processes for the police chief and internal investigations uh still stand that those processes still exist in the police department and in fact as long as those investigations and disciplinary decisions and processes feel sufficient to this community control board they won't have to do very much they're there to review that process and step in if they feel a need to I mean I would say and I'd point people to page 12 and 13 of the the document I was talking about where the details are laid out that the real focus is on extreme abuses of authority the excess excessive force abuse of authority unlawful arrests start stops and seizures and the like and those things the board can but it does not have to take jurisdiction on and if it doesn't then the chief gets to do what he does otherwise the board the board can and will and I think should take up those important matters because this process is much more open and transparent and will I believe build build truth but I mean trust in the community but there's a whole section on what the powers of the chief are in the disciplinary process and I would ask people to look at what the existing charter says because we took what exists now and plopped it right into the chief's authority so you know the the claim that it gives exclusive authority over bpt to the board or that it excludes the chief from all discipline is just flat out wrong and and I would just let you know that if the you know they talk about this having exclusive authority over the the department but that's also just flat out wrong because what this is about is in investigations of discipline and then the due process to figure out what to do when just cause is found to to do some discipline and so all of the other things the the management and control the rules and regulations the the directives those are all still with the department so I I'm actually stunned that you that they're making that claim they they claim that the board is empowered to discipline without input from the chief or any opportunity to appeal I mean yeah so so when a board when this board picks up a case they're going to be picking up cases that have already begun investigation with the chief in the police department and in order to truly understand what is going on they're going to need to work closely with officers involved with the police chief to understand these things um and in terms of appeal um the the decisions of the board can be appealed and they go to court um so but yeah both of these are are just untrue I mean I mean the the other thing and I I heard this criticism today um that this undoes all of the grievance um rights that the the BPOA have um and that also isn't true because any discipline that is given by the chief can still go through the arbitration and grievance process I mean what is brought into the court system are the decisions of the board but all of that authority of the chief that is still embedded in this proposal go the way that it has been so again whether people are reading the proposal or they're just deciding to throw whatever they can on the wall to to to try to defeat it um it really isn't fair and it's one thing to have a debate about the merits but I think we should have a debate about the merits and um let me let me let me flip to something in terms of another argument that they say because it gets to merits and gets to changes they say that this is binding on um you know on if you if it's a past it's binding and it can't be amended by the mayor or the city attorney or the city council but it still goes to the legislature right so talk about that yeah so it is correct that if this is passed by the voters city council and the mayor cannot make edits to it but the next step in the process of changing the city charter is that this goes to the state legislature and at that point the legislature deliberates in order to pass it they are in all likelihood will make changes to this proposal I mean that that's part of their deliberation process um I yeah it's it's hard to imagine they're not being changes made to this and you know we we stand by what is in this proposal and we'll be there to advocate for those things but um you know this is not all set in stone and so you know where opposers want to hone in on very specific nitty gritty details of the proposal and say this is why it shouldn't be passed there will be further deliberation and changes to be made here and what's critical is that you know we've been talking about police oversight for years now or officials not talking about it for years now after acknowledging it's an issue and so this is our opportunity to move it forward and some of these details can further be worked out at the next phase I mean I think that one of the issues and we have a very short period of time now so we won't get too much more is whether law enforcement people can be on the board there's a lot of opportunity for members of law enforcement now and who are previously in law enforcement to have input and impact on the entire process that the board would have be that advice be that the training um etc but um that would be an area that um you know there probably um could be some some changes and while you guys have not advocated for that um it would not you know that that's just part of the process that that we've we've got here um I'm trying to uh to to bring us close to a to a close because I know that time is definitely short um one of the arguments is that they that they the proposal creates no standards or requirements to give due process and let me just say without um Evan wasting time asking is that you know there's a hearing process uh under the board so the chief has his own process which is exactly what it is now but under the board there's a hearing process there's investigation there's the evidence production there's the whole thing when you think about due process you think about the right to defend yourself against charges and to bring people to come and speak on your behalf and to cross-examine witnesses and the like and that's what it is and when you talk about things like excessive force and I speak to you know cases that we've seen um this is critically important um and um it's uh it's just not fair and right to attack this proposal on on that basis um Tyler give us a closing thought short yeah I think I just again want to underscore um that we we've talked to thousands of our neighbors and have found overwhelming support for this proposal from individuals and local and statewide organizations alike we as a community put this on the ballot together and we have a rare opportunity to decide for ourselves to make our current policing system incrementally better for all people I hope everyone will join me in voting yes for community oversight of police question number seven on town meeting day and in sending a clear message to our elected officials that we deserve public safety systems that will keep everyone safe thanks Tyler I'll I'll be joining you in voting yes and I suspect that many many other people will as well well thank you for the time thank you cctv for the opportunity and I really look forward to uh to our next show and uh bringing as someone to talk about something as current and important as community control of police so thanks very much and have a great night and thank you good night