 Can you both share a little bit about what what forgiveness doesn't look like? You know, one of the things that people can do very easily is to hold a grudge You know when somebody is forgiving somebody else it means to release a death The the concept of forgiveness is is to release a debt that is owed to you rightfully owed to you That's why Jesus would say for us in the prayer more prayer Forgive us our debts as we forgive or also forgive our debtors Because the debtor owes me something and so I owe God something as a sinner You know, I have broken his commandments and and I am basically in debt to him And so I'm asking God for give me my debts, you know, forgive me wipe away the slate of obligations You know, he does that by his grace But if I've received his grace then I am supposed to extend his grace to somebody else And so forgiveness is it going to affect at least two people it'll affect me the one who is forgiving and To the one who's being forgiven So it always affects at least the two people What I'm supposed to do is stand ready to release the debt I'm to be in that attitude of quick forgiveness or willingness at least to do that So when I do forgive, I'm release of my own pressures. I don't carry that any longer I'm not bearing that burden anymore of unforgiveness. And so What it looks like is freedom. It looks like peace and and joy and re-established relationships things like that, that's what forgiveness looks like and And for me, it's the sense of being released from the pressure because you know it is when you're upset at somebody and and there hasn't been any kind of confession or any kind of restitution or or Just asking for or giving a free Forgiveness, there's just that tension between you and that person the unspoken tension sometimes that It may not be openly stated, but it's most certainly experience, you know, there's that that sense of dread to see that person or That withdrawing of yourself because you don't trust them because when somebody's hurt you you don't trust them so you're no longer extending the grace and the kindness or You know the relational things that at one time have been part of that That the unity of hearts and so forgiveness is a very important aspect in Christianity because We know of all people God needs to forgive us. We need God's forgiveness. I should say And to when we receive that Then that which I've received I can give them to you. I can give to someone else which is Simply what I've received myself. So I give what I've gotten and in marriage and in friendships and relationships I Feel that that is especially in marriage a very important aspect of it because we hurt each other Whether it's in the word or whether it's in action or an attitude We can hurt each other. We can injure each other And so if I say to my wife, I am truly I'm sorry. I didn't intend to do it and Acknowledge that I did that and said a dance and around and trying to blame set and Trying to give all the reasons why I did that to justify it If I take ownership of it and I say You know what we used to say when I was growing up in the Latin was mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa My fault my fault my most grievous fault. It's it's a sense of personal accountability and Responsibility and when a man or a woman in a relationship, especially Don't say baby. I'm sorry. I hurt you not if I hurt you Sometimes so if I hurt you because that puts the blame on her, you know, I'm suddenly shifting it to you Well, you're the one hurting therefore if you're hurt. I didn't intend to I wasn't the bad person No, I hurt you I take responsibility for hurting you and I'm sorry I'm sorry for doing that. I really am and it's been said in marriage I was wrong. I'm sorry is probably amongst the hardest words to form especially because of our pride and our reluctance to Admit that that we can harm others and so in marriage. I have discovered that to be be willing to to love my girl enough to Just say I have hurt you and I am sorry and to truly repent It's been very important You know one of the things that you mentioned and I think it's so harsh sometimes for people to let go is when they've been hurt or They've Forgiveness needs to take place in the marriage or any relationship When that person is the other person's asking for forgiveness There can be a tendency for the other person not to forgive They let that tension fester and they let it grow and it becomes bitterness and then And then it just becomes this ugly looking thing in the marriage, you know, and and so how do you guard against that? That's why we need to immediately talk one another that we forgive them and Because if you if you hold on to something It will fester and that's all you're going to be thinking about We have to let go some of those things that we've been hurt by and that's given it to the Lord and if God forgave Us, you know a sinner like why why we are to forgive those who've heard against that's that's part of the Christian life is is is to pour out forgiveness on others and Because we are wretched, you know, we're wretched people Yet God loved us so much that he died for us and we too need to die for one another and and say hey, I'm sorry Hey, I heard you That's that's the Christian that's that's what defines Christianity is the love for one another in spite of our in spite of our self We can we can we have that love and we can extend it to others and that's what we should be doing You know, that's important As you both mentioned the quickness to forgive it. It's a Lord's always quick to forgive Our sin our wrongdoings and and for the and for the in the relationship that quickness I think you both have mentioned is so important in forgiving So let me ask you both. So why is it so hard to forgive? I Think it's our flesh Is it because the flesh just wants to hang on to I mean I think about that it Even in times in my wife's I'm sure because you guys know I'm perfect right in my and so if any forgiveness has to take place My wife is always asking me and so because you guys know that's why she's such a saint But even in within our marriage, you know, my wife for whatever reason My wife may ask may say will you please forgive me and at first, you know, I want to I want to put my heels in and You know, and sometimes it's a difficult thing and And I've learned that I need to die to that, you know, because just as quick as Christ has forgiven me I also must forgive. You know part of the problem is John is that we like to you like to cause other people pain because they Cause us pain and so we want to see them hurt a little bit because they hurt us And sometimes we're not satisfied because we don't think that they've hurt enough because our self-righteousness and self-importance Our narcissism sometimes gets the best of us. So we become God, you know You've sinned against me and therefore I will not release this until you pay for it with your pound of flesh or whatever You know, and so I Think that has a lot to do with it when and I'm hurt or injured by somebody I'm not always quick to say That's okay, you know, but I Think part of that is because I'm not sure whether they really are actually apologizing Which they if they are actually telling me that they truly are Sorry, and I think something like that can To motivate me well, and I'm his being his wife and if somebody's hurt him well, I can hold a grudge because of the fact that He's been hurt and and I have I too I have I you know, I have to go before the Lord I've had to go before the Lord many times and say Lord forgive me. This is a child of God We're dealing with and and yet You do want to hold sometimes you feel that you you should just hold on to the Because after all that person may deserve it and and not and that's wrong That's that's wrong. Like I said, the Lord forgave me And I must Which is very difficult at times, you know We also often hear the phrase what you need to forgive and forget and that comes up. I hear that a lot What's your guys's take on that because I think really the only one that truly can forgive and forget is the Lord because he tells Us in scripture that he casts it from the east to the west, right? What he doesn't bring it up, you know, I don't know that God has the capacity to forget anything That God prioritizes in terms of retrieval prioritizes things that have Occurred by placing them under the blood of Christ, which means that they're hidden in In the sense of being covered so he doesn't bring them up He doesn't retrieve them and use them against us because because they're completely released the debt has been completely released So, you know on one occasion Jesus's disciples approached him Peter said Lord, how often should I forgive my brother who sins against me until Seven times, you know, apparently the rabbis had been teaching that God forgives seven times to get that out of the Psalms Six times God forgives a seven and so with the with the seventh after that they have the Freedom to not forgive, you know, so up to seven times and I say into you and seven times 70 You know, which is another way of saying completely If your brother comes to you and says, I'm sorry and ask forgiveness You're to forgive them. I think that part of our problem is and it's very practical And I can I can hear some of the viewers who may be listening right now We're right away Saying now wait a minute. How about because there are those there are Reservations when you make a blanket statement like that And I and I understand that but the the biblical idea of forgiveness again is to release now If somebody has no evidence of genuine repentance, you know, somebody who's just saying I'm sorry And we've all seen that because we train our children to apologize But they don't always understand what they're apologizing for and they don't even see the reason why they should apologize If one of my bigger children hits the littler one and I say that you shouldn't be hitting the little one Well, to a bigger child, it only makes sense to hit the littler one. Why would I go hit a bigger one? You know, right? So that makes sense. Why should I feel sorry? For dominating for using my size to my advantage. That's human nature, right? So We have to teach them that there are reasons to forgive there are reasons to apologize and those are all part of what we have to train people in because That's something you have to learn to do and so when somebody is injured The first thing we do is we hold our injury and we we almost protected it In some cases it can become something that we use to our advantage And I've seen that many times when people will say in a situation where they have they've sinned or aired against somebody and And I will say, you know, we need to release that it needs to be but you don't understand when I was a child This happened to me and my entire life has been formulated around the defensiveness Concerning this particular behavior because I suffered in this way So it's a lot deeper for people than to simply say, oh, I'm sorry, you know, and we'll just move on and and all and so that's what makes forgiving difficult because Because the releasing is not as easy. That's why when that's why Peter said increase our faith You know, that's why because it's not as easy as you say But if you don't the parable of the debt collector comes to mind You know where a man owed another man some of money the man forgave him Then somebody else came and over to a lesser some and But the man said I'm not going to forgive you and threw him into the debtor's prison and all Jesus spoke concerning that that he was that this man who refused to forgive even though he had been forgiven Was placed into the debtor's prison where he's going to remain until every penny is paid in other words He is a debt collector and he's gonna he's gonna remain under the under the painful burden Not knowing what freedom is and what release really is because he didn't understand how how that one who gave he had owed a an unrepayable debt He didn't understand the depth of his own debt because he was caught up with his own value and a real failure of Understanding what he had or then this man had owed God that someone and God is saying you didn't genuinely partake in forgiveness You didn't understand it because to truly understand forgiveness is to learn to to give it to other people Forgive us as we have you know been forgiven. Maybe we forgive others, you know, and that's I think is a big as a big part of it John is Numbers of people don't know what forgiveness is. They haven't experienced it themselves And pray in a sense for them You know in a good way, you know, not put not by pray that you're getting an accident nothing like that In sincerity, you know for them, you know, you know what they need Lord You know where they're hurting and be with them and bring Give them courage bring them, you know bring them to church to come to know you because Oftentimes it's the world that Can really hurt us and and they do need healing and they need to see what kindness is all about and They need to be brought to the Lord That's One of the ways I was taught this and I think it's this truth to it One of the ways to know if I have actually forgiven somebody is if I can pray for them If I can pray for God's best for them It's one of the ways I know when I've really released somebody from the dead Because if I can't pray for their blessing or their best Then I haven't released them Sometimes we we will pray. Yes, Lord. I thank you for being a just God and you will send them to hell, you know like the old Inflictory psalms that we have Break their teeth Children I mean this this man when he prayed for vengeance. He knew how to pray so that what Maria saying is hundred percent right on because You know, that's when I've known I've released something That's when I've known it is when I've been sincerely able to pray for their best sincerely, you know, you know One of the songs we used to sing in the early Calvary days is V kind one to another tender hearted Forgiving one another just as Christ for God's sake has forgiven you Do-do-do-do-do-do That's right Sing that, you know But being a kind one to another tender hearted Forgiving one another just as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you Paul said and so I went to see a professor of mine on one occasion I was really upset and I was bearing the burden of anger and forgiveness and my friend Dr. Moore My friend Dr. Moore who was one of my professors at Biowa had tremendous affection for Maria and I had tremendous affection for him She eventually met him But that's what he did he quoted to me that scripture because he because I said to him I've got a burden. I'm upset I can't release it and he said you need to release it for God's sake because God Crisis forgave you. I didn't receive it at that time John. I walked out saying well, that's his job That's what God does if we get sick. I was really that bitter because what we said earlier is true If you don't release you get bitter, you know, I was I was very bitter very bitter very angry But eventually what happened is that scripture came to life in my life It awakened in me, you know that That you need to release because when you do release you have freedom you really do you're no longer mad when you see them or Just remembering every time you see them. I don't want to see them I don't want to be around them to make me sick And you know, and sometimes you physically can get sick when you see somebody But when you release it into the hands of the Lord and it's not it like you said earlier It's it's not an emotion. I think that's where a lot of people make the mistakes It's a decision. It's a decision of the will where you say I will release this. I will not be in bondage to this. I Will let it go And if you have to do it every day ten times you do it every day Because you can get into the habit of forgiveness it can become a mindset Which in which in my case, I think that it pretty much has you know, again, I've been a Christian a long time and you get into disciplines and habits of the heart and And that has pretty much happened to me not not completely But very much so where if somebody has injured me I'm much quicker now to release it just to say You know the Lord it's in your hands Lord You know, but as for me, I don't want to I don't want to carry this I don't I don't want to dread seeing them all of us have been in that place John where somebody has injured you and you see him walk in the door and first thing you want to do is just walk away Yeah, you know find a place to hide maybe walk out the door Don't look at him. Don't say anything to him ignore them because you're afraid that if if you if you see him You're afraid that you may say something to them or do something And so that that's an ugly way to live That's an ugly way to live and and one of the things that both Marie and I have learned I can speak for us and this one is God doesn't let you get away with that He orchestrated so that person walks in the door when you're walking out You can try walking around in the church up off that door and that person will be over there That does happen and you laugh within yourself and you say it's the Lord He's not letting me get away with this and so I learned that in very practical ways. I've I've I've learned that He doesn't want me carrying a grudge. He doesn't want me Burying this burden because it hurts me too and he doesn't want that in my life, you know salt releasing it It's not easy Especially if it's a repeat offender if this person is constantly so there needs to be a sincerity in The apology that I need to stand ready to forgive and sometimes and as you know this and now I'll kind of just highlight this and then Let you ask some more questions, but sometimes the person who hurt you dies And you never hear from them. I'm sorry That happens quite often someone injured you Harmed you there are young women who were molested by somebody harmed by some decent man who has a little boy is harmed by somebody and Just waiting for that person to admit it To say I'm so sorry and you know that would have released you had you heard it and they die How do you handle that? You never heard the I'm sorry. You never heard it. How do you handle that? I believe that part of forgiveness is being ready to forgive and releasing even prior to that person Saying anything because sometimes they never do and if I wait my whole life waiting for somebody to approach me and say You know David, I hurt you and I'm sorry Then I may waste a lifetime waiting for something But if I if I stand ready and and I'm in an attitude of forgiveness and I've released the death though I haven't even heard the words I'm better off because in my heart I've already forgiven them and those words are going to just be something that come later on Or may never come at all. So it's an attitude. It's an attitude of forgiveness Not just the act, but it's the attitude of forgiveness where I'm gonna release this person of that death Even though they may never even ask wow You know kind of just what you're saying pastor On my death on my dad's death bed I had the opportunity to be next to him when he passed away and I I started getting this overwhelming feeling of guilt because here I see my dad dying and in moments before Well, actually a little before he went unconscious. I was able to ask him for forgiveness because what really really struck My heart was I may not have this opportunity again to ask and then guess what now for my rest of my life I'm gonna be living with this the guilt The the cell I mean just how it affects our self-worth and our esteem and you know, there were some things I really really needed to ask him for forgiveness for some horrible things that I've done to both my parents and I don't want to get too much into it because I don't want to get too emotional about it but I could understand what you're saying is that That opportunity to never be able to ask or to receive that forgiveness can be Something that just destroys the heart and and what it does to the person, you know to never have that closure or didn't ever have that That ability to say that and so I think again, it's not an emotion because emotions come and go right? It's we know that it's a it's an attitude of the heart and the Bible tells us to stand ready to forgive What does it look like for you both not in within your marriage, but in your pastoral care experience? when somebody has asked for forgiveness from the other person and I Forgive you, but yet when there's an argument, that's the first thing thrown in their face Would that be considered true forgiveness? No No, the Bible says in almost 13. I'm sorry first thing is 13 that love doesn't catalog Doesn't keep a record, you know and so I really In marriage or relationship You know the blood of Christ wipes away those things if it blots it out and so No, if I'm running around still carrying it in my heart. I haven't released it and If somebody has to bring something up to me later on well, you always They haven't either, you know, and so, you know, that's not true forgiveness. True forgiveness is the release It's the letting it go and I think that one of the worst things that you can do is to Keep reminding people of what they've done if they've sincerely said forgive me for what I did You know, we need to remember that in marriage two sinners got married you know, it wasn't one perfect person were two imperfect people and If I've heard other people before I met Marie, I'll probably hurt her too And if she's hurt others, she'll probably hurt me too. You and beings hurt each other and so You can't enter into a marital relationship expecting to be free from pain and differences and And we had our share in the early days of our marriage, you know I think that there's always a potential for us to to do something to one another or say something to one another That's hurtful to this day human beings being what we are we're capable of doing that But we've also I I would say in our relationship. We've learned to let it go a lot quicker, you know Yeah, I come from a Long line of grudge holders I My mama could remember things that were done to her when she was a little little little girl and she pretty much Imparted that kind of ability to me You know, so it was a lot of work for me to in the Lord to learn to release and to believe That people really are sorry when they say it and to accept it and not to bring it up and not to say it Took a lot for me to learn to say this is not something that will repeat will not talk of this again My kids can tell you that when they grew up I had learned that I had learned it by the time they were Old enough to willingly do things that they shouldn't have and I would say to them in this conversation This is the last time we'll talk about this and that's a fact we talked about it daddy I'm sorry and we reconcile whatever needs to be reconciled and we would move on And all my children can tell you that's how I handled them because I would tell them that we're not going to Bring this back up when my favorite quotes is from Ruth Val Graham where she said every cat knows that some things need to remain buried Where they are you know leave it alone and and move on Right, I like this too short John it may feel like it's a long life, but it's not our life is too short For us to be caring grudges and anger every day That's what I appreciate working with you pastor. I there's things I've done that You all check out this one this one this one I appreciate Because it can be difficult especially when you You know you've disappointed our pastor, you know in situations like that can happen and The fact that you just deal with it and then it's done and let's move forward and I appreciate that because that's taught me Doesn't need to be rehashed doesn't need to be revived and I think a lot of times in marriages that can happen That is the same thing. It's like okay. This we're forgiven. Let's move forward But there may be one or the other that they want to rehash it or they want to bring it back up And I think there's a matured a spiritual maturity when you're able to say let's just move on We got bigger battles to face together than to separate from one another, you know And I think that's important And so you've modeled that in my life that I'm able to take that back into my marriage and and in my other Relationships that if there is something that has happened Let's deal with it and move on, you know, and I think that's huge We think so well, that's it. It's like the Lord. It's you know, there's no trip. No a disagreement. God can't Fix if we allow him to transform our lives When and we need to just leave it forget, you know forget what happened It's that I think that's the hardest thing for most people is the forgetting and they do want to bring everything back They use it on each other, but that Isn't a good thing to do I see that a lot of times when people They use the term for give and forget There can be a the forgetting part can seem like oh, it's just an excuse that you've excused it or kind of accepted it We're then again Being in the flesh or thinking no, we want you to pay for what you've done if I forgive and forget I've given you a free pass Well, it's kind of forgiveness kind of works that way, right? We do get a free pass in a sense that we need to release that for the other person But allowing that pseudo forgiveness to take place in a marriage How dangerous or what are the dangers of allowing unforgiveness to linger in a marriage? Absolutely They may look elsewhere too I'm gonna find somebody Nobody who doesn't yeah, who doesn't treat me like this Respect me Jesus referred to that kind of attitude as hardness of the heart He said this was allowed because of the hardness of your hearts. They were unwilling to forgive. They weren't unwilling to Let it go and Jesus said it was a hardening You know because remember that argument that they posed to him concerning divorces, you know Lawful to divorce woman for just any cause Moses Commanded Moses permitted Permission because of the hardness of your heart Because you are human beings are capable of Rejecting the right road doing the right thing You know if it's true that the Holy Spirit is Produces the fruit of love And gives to us the ability to do all things that are necessary through the power of Christ Why can't I forget? Why can't I release it? You know That's a whole ministry of Christ, I mean You remember the story where those men brought the the friend to him and marked to and They lowered him and Jesus he's this paralyzed man on this mat and he says your sins are forgiving you, you know and Who is this they said that even forgives sin? That's what God does see that's the whole issue is who is this who forgives sin? And so is it true that the Bible? Says if I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive me my sin and to cleanse me from all and it's not true That he'll cleanse me from all my unrighteousness Then somebody says well. Yeah, that's what first John 1 9 says Okay, then if he forgives me of my sin, why won't you? Why won't you? You know who is this a forgive sin, you know and it's Jesus Christ That you may see that the power that the Son man has power on earth to forgive sins he turns to the man Which is easier to say get up and walk, you know Or your sins are forgiving you but you may see that I have that authority get up and walk which he Took the spiritual Which is forgiveness of sins and he made it practical with that miracle of walking because now that man is gonna walk in freedom Freedom from sin from the burden of sin And so we need to see that and so people can lie on a mat and they can stay crippled if they want Or they can get up and they can walk because they've been forgiven by the one who gives sin And that's in marital relations to I can keep Marie in bondage and cripple her Cripple her by reminding her of any disappointments and if I do that often enough she will not blossom She will not she will not produce fruit. I will dominate her Eventually she'll do one of two things either she'll wilt and ultimately die Or she's gonna just leave me because she can't survive under that kind of person any longer and so love bears all things And love doesn't catalog all sins and So the whole issue in forgiveness is going to come down especially in marriage Is related to the love that we have for one another. Do I love this girl? And with all my heart and if I do why would I harm her and why would I keep her prisoner? When jesus came to set her free, why would I do that? And that's how some people control right the woman will control the man You've always said that we've we've known too many You've never you've always been that way and you've never and and the guys honey. I do the best I can You know What else do you want from me? Well, you just have to prove to me that you really are Why who are you that I have to prove this to I already asked god for forgiveness I asked you to forgive me. I'm moving in a different way. Do you want me to keep a list of all the ways? I'm different now so that you can go over those lists and say oh, you're not you're not you're not and that's that's I've seen that We've seen that we've seen it like you're not like so-and-so. How come you're not like so-and-so? Why don't you treat me and I can't he treats his wife on We've seen a lot of that Blaming one another And controlling one another and very often the woman will say well, I don't get what I need here I'll go here and the husband is rooted and grounded. He's developing relationships He's drawing in his walk with god But she doesn't get what she wants at the church He's in so she goes to a new church and after a while she goes to a new church And she's just up roots and up roots and he goes back to his old old ways after a while because you know I have no friendships. No relationships, you know We've seen a lot of that John. Can you imagine, you know, how many years marie and I have been together in ministry And how many how many times we've seen those things? I can't I can't tell you how many I can't there've been so many Where they just won't let go. They just hold on it. They're angry and and they hurt each other with the words and and they don't release them and a long time ago The holy spirit reminded me that I married a girl he called his daughter This is my girl my daughter I've never forgotten that voice in my heart that was very real When he said this is my girl. Don't speak to her that way Yeah, that's a very really I've had a lot of them when I think about that god Sometimes it's been very gracious to make it very clear in ways that were tangible Where I I'd hear and then people say oh, he's crazy. I always I was crazy But no, it's true where I hear my own heart I'd hear those words and I still remember when you said that's my little girl. Don't talk to her that way I've never forgotten that and I looked at marie in a different way We were young. We were really young then and I looked at her and I go I hadn't thought of that This is god's daughter This is god's daughter I'm not supposed to talk to her like I was angry Raising my voices as some men can do and I did That's not how you speak to her so I get my my my cues from the bible god's word but There are very deep experiences that you can have over lifetime Where it solidifies the things that you've been reading and you say that puts teeth to that I see what that means now in a different way And so sometimes that still small voice we read about in scripture Is still a still small voice in our own heart there are times Not always not every day in every moment, but there are times Where his voice will ring into your heart, whether it's a scripture that's comes to mind Or a sense of a voice it says don't speak to her like that And I can give you biblical Verses that said this this is a daughter of god You know So it just is like god just Setting that in not everybody goes through that and I'm just trying to emphasize That what we do is we understand who we are And this is his daughter And I have no right to to not forgive her when he already has She went to him first and said god forgive me a sinner Who am I to say he forgives, but I don't And it works for us for us too Many women can treat their husband Badly through the words they They say to them and never build them up and and We need to build up our husbands They're the prime providers of the home we need to build them up and encourage them They need to see that we love them and that there's no other and We've been very blessed We have been very blessed I think so You have I have I have You know one of the things that uh When you guys are sharing about this There are people out there who have uh Who don't want to give for but they don't want to forgive because They want to hang on to that because sometimes it's the only thing they know Or the only thing that's comfortable for them. They don't understand that releasing something It's literally putting their trust in the lord And maybe even putting their trust in somebody else by forgiving And so sometimes I can see that they don't just want to give because it's Something they only know how to do is hanging on and it can be a controlling thing too as well But I like what you said pastor. It's releasing. It's an act of releasing Praise god. It's not based on emotions. You know because uh if it was based on emotion You know a lot of people won't be forgiven And Also, like what you both said Who do we think we are when we don't forgive when god is already forgiven us? Are we now taking the role of god? You know when we don't want to forgive people especially our spouse You know, that's that's so important You guys already touched on these last two questions How important is forgiveness in a marriage and how does one practice forgiveness in a marriage? I think you both already mentioned that it's the releasing and having an attitude to always be ready to forgive And that's something I can maybe just add to this. Is this something that's already prepared in your heart Lord, I know I may get burned or I may get hurt Is it something that's already planned and prayed for or is it something that you already have already Okay, if they for if they hurt me, I'm gonna forgive right away. How do you go about that process? I never thought he was gonna hurt me, you know For me, so I I think it's a natural thing when it I feel blessed to have my husband Who he is and he's been a good Father and a good husband and so I I'm I'm completely blessed by him and I've never Felt that he was gonna hurt me No, no never In our relationship, I believe that love That the love that we have for christ and one another has set a tone for all the other things that go on in that and so We again we and I you know, we um When we got married we um As we've been saying quite often lately came from different backgrounds, you know and We had to learn to adjust each other's ways and And we have and we did yes, but it took a while. It was it wasn't quick. It was over years because You get married. That's one thing You have a baby. That's the second thing Then you have another baby. That's then you have a house that you buy and then You know all the pressures and all the stresses and and all the changes, you know Um, Ray became a different woman with each child. I had a different wife Because she was a mother now to one now. She's a mother to two now. She's a mother three Well, she's a mother to four And and me I'm giving up my wife to each one of these kids And I'm adjusting to the fact that she doesn't want to be with me Because she has to be with him and her and and all of those things and then I'm I'm under the stress of having A job and she had to work and our bills and all of that all the pressures and both of us Had a a lot of pressures that that everybody has when they first get married. It wasn't unique to us It was just us and and we we were prepared by by the things of the lord by by trust in god and our faith in him and and a A meant a mindset that nothing will separate us because when we got married That that we we married with one attitude. We both had it. This marriage is going to last no matter what We we did not enter in our marriage thinking well, if it doesn't last or whatever I I we neither came it from neither of us came from the background that that for us that Not making it was uh An option and never was So when you when you enter in Kind of that old saying Of you arrived on a boat, but you burn the boat so you don't get on it and leave When you arrive on that as we did in marriage we burn the boats behind us There's no escape our vows are to god into one another before these people Which we married that way And there's we are going to make it. There's no way we're not And so and and and we're going to be happily married. We're not just going to be married and Kind of like put up with each other until we die You know, we're going to we're going to make it and we're going to have what god wants us to have Then you have that kind of attitude And then you encounter problems and and and and again, you know, everybody has different kinds of problems You know, whatever you bring into your marriage is what you brought in you may have a background of Something that you brought in that that it's a harmful memory It's a harmful thing that caused you to be a certain way. I respect and understand that But that man and that woman who decided together in christ that we're going to make it We're going to get married and and had some minister and had those Witnesses and signed that contract All of that means something All of it does and so yeah, you know, we we we got married and there'd be differences sometimes Sometimes they may be so petty that why are we so upset, you know, because that happens Especially when you're younger, you know, she made tacos one time and she made it with cinnamon accidentally I accidentally because it was red And she thought it was chili You know, and we have money to buy a Like a churro taco, right? And so I'm not happy about that. So what am I supposed to do pout and cry or do what I did? I got some water and wash this off Wash So those are little things aren't some major things, you know Somebody can hurt each other in a way in whatever way say something cruel or be unkind you know I just I just i'm a christian john. I I think the bible Is right and it's true and and i'm a sinner saved by grace forgiven by god and I believe that I you know, that's what I've been preaching for many years Why wouldn't I apply that to this woman that I'm married to why wouldn't I why would I not? Why would I not apply forgiveness? If neither I can honestly say this and I'll say it openly and people don't have to believe it. It's true Marie and I don't really go through a bunch of garbage anymore. We don't we have our ups and downs a little irritations, I guess But they're so small We don't even have to say how to forgive me. We don't It's not that we wouldn't is that we We've worked through so many stupid things That we just kind of accept each other and our and our weirdnesses that we have and me more than hers And the tensions that that I can go through and the line of profession I have and the burdens I carry You know when she's learned to bear them with me and to let me Deal with whatever it is. I'm having to deal with she's learned to do that So she doesn't expect a perfect man She expects a man to work things out according to the way the lord works and she trusts that he will and he does And so we don't we we we don't really argue and we don't really Irritate each other that much. We just don't and even if even if we do It's so it's so fleeting that who cares Especially as we're going older Because we are I am much more aware that every day I have Is a gift and I'm aware of that John, you know every day with this woman is one one more day And I am aware I'm not going to mess up my last days And I'm going to be a good husband and that's what I did as a kid I didn't understand that as an adult male an older man I do I do and that comps me that makes me a better man because I don't want I don't want Her not to have good memories of me. I just don't and that that motivates me and people don't understand that Not everybody does But it's true and we can tell you that's true. That's right I just do the best I can and we didn't bless beyond measure Well, you guys thank you so much for giving us practical insight and and the ways that forgiveness works in a marriage and And and you guys are truly always an example to many of us who are married And a lot of the things that we that marriages go through we we're so blessed as a church to have Our pastor and marita as a couple that we can model that That work hard every day to be like christ and so thank you guys for that And and for giving us practical application or forgiveness. Thank you guys for watching and god blessing. We'll see you soon