 Okay, so I'm ready. I see the presence of the quorum. I'm ready to call this meeting of governance organization legislation to order. It looks like 1032 on my watch on July 29 pursuant to Governor Baker's order of March 12 2020 suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. This meeting of GOL is being conducted via remote participation, and we are being recorded. The first thing I want to do is make sure that we all can hear each other. I'm pretty sure we can but I just want to do that so I'm going to start with Mandy Joe. And Pat present and Lynn. I'm here. Okay and Andy. All right, so everyone is here and everyone can be heard and can speak. We have a minutes taker Emily Rudin present which is great. Thank you again Emily. I want to bring your attention to the agenda. As you know, Paul has been invited and he's accepted to come, but he cannot make it until 11 o'clock. So I'm going to put off that portion of the agenda, or at least most of it until that point. He will come at 11 and we can pick up with that at that point. Notice item number two, I want to make sure you're okay with this and in the future this is what I would probably do but I want to make sure you're okay. I did get from CRC a bylaw on wild animal acts and it had been vetted by CRC they'd gone through it. And it seemed appropriate to me, but I need your input to simply send it immediately out for legal review. So when it comes back it then comes to us. And then we can send it to one last time, and then we can send it on to the council, rather than having us look at it, then sending it off to legal review, then coming back to us. So, that's what I did so I took that upon myself. If you don't want me to do that you should let me know. If you're normally that's what I think I would do. Let's have the lawyers look at it. If it's been vetted already by one other body in other words if if another council committees looked at it, and given it a thorough review, then it seems to me that makes sense then to send that to the attorney, then it comes back to us for one final look, and then it goes to the council. Item number two, any thoughts on that. Would you prefer a different procedure, which you prefer I talked to you before I do this. Here I felt I could just go ahead and do it. But later I had sort of remorse. So I just, I guess I'm asking for forgiveness after I committed this sin, but Catholic move. I'm sorry. You know, I'm just going to deal there. Thoughts on this at all quickly anything. I must note that both Mandy and I know all know about St. Louis Catholics. So, I know, I know. She also has her hand waving so Lynn, please. I want to make sure that if it's a pretty simple and straightforward by law change that we don't have to bother with legal review but if I totally agree with what you did with this one George and leave it to your judgment. I agree with what we had to send it along to council. I do have questions that I probably will take up when we actually get back to this because I've never been quite certain as to what is the scope of the terms and actionable. And I think it's be worth having a little bit of that discussion around this particular proposed by law for reasons that is probably better postponing saying what they are until it's actually on the agenda. Okay. I agree when a bylaw is fairly clear and simple that we don't need a lawyer's review. And, but I also I am, I am concerned about the ongoing delay is the wage theft bylaw back from a lawyer. Yeah. And so we get trapped by I mean that's a complicated one. And it should go to the lawyer. I'm not, but something like the animal thing. I don't think needs to go to the lawyer. Lynn has her hand up. Okay. You can talk to Paul when he comes on to the meeting but he had a conversation with our attorney just yesterday about the delays I gather it was pretty straightforward and not very forgiving. What does that mean exactly. Yeah, I think he let them know we were not happy about the delays. Okay. I want to respond to your comment about the wild animal bylaw. That I think has to go to attorney review because it's a completely new bylaw. It's not even a you know it's not like a slight change it's the whole thing is, it's obviously based I assume it's based on other models elsewhere but I don't think we so that would have to go. It seems to me to attorney review. I'm not even sure here I'm not even sure I agree with Lynn on this, because I know when I speak to Paul, his view is everything goes to the attorney. Now, he may modify that I may be misinterpreting what he's told me in the past, but he pretty much has been adamant that you should run everything by the attorneys for a final check. So, he might want to weigh in on that. We may disagree with him and we don't have to do what he says, but this particular bylaw definitely needs attorney review. And I would think generally speaking mostly would in spite of the delays, but that's just my opinion. So, and probably weigh in. I may be misquoting him or misrepresenting him, but when I've spoken to him on this briefly, his responses give a media impression. If you make a change, you know, unless it's like a scrivener's error or something like that if you make any change of content. Right. No matter how minor. So, he needs to weigh in. And we may disagree and I'm happy. I think you probably would disagree and we may disagree as a committee. If that's what's going to be the process, it'll be the process. I'm just concerned about consistent delays from KP law. Right. Concerned about the expense of KP law doing every bylaw. I think that makes me uncomfortable. But I'll shut up because I'm cranky to this morning. Okay. Well, you're not the only one, but that's okay. We'll give you, we'll give you a little leeway there. Not too much, please. Andy, just back to you. We do have some documents I will send to you that we have created over over the past year and a half that spell out what we mean by clear consistent and actionable. I think it's largely been the work of Mandy and the committee as a whole, but she's put a lot of time and effort into it. So I will make sure that those are all available. I'll give you a special one just for you to look at, but we'll have it available at the next meeting when we take up a new bylaw. But it spells out what we in the past have understood these terms to mean. Thank you for the credit, George, but I actually think it was Evan. Well, it may have been Evan, but we have some documents that that I should probably have sent to our new members right away. But I will make sure they get them and they will be the will have them available for our next review, but not for today. Because we do have a resolution coming up an item number four, which is next I'd like to get that done. I would like to get that first this morning if we could before we turn to Paul 11 for not done will just suspend it and come back to it, but I'd like to get the resolution addressed this morning before Paul shows up. But again briefly before I do that, could you just make it clear to me what you expect Paul asked me what do you want me to do what you want you want me to prepare anything. I think my understanding was the committee just wants to hear from him about the town manager evaluation, and what has worked and what hasn't. What's useful and what isn't. So my understanding is, we're not, we didn't call him in here to grill him. So we may very well have some questions, but primarily my understanding and what I communicated to him was we want to hear from him about what he finds useful in in these evaluations and what he doesn't. And what doesn't. Is that a fair characterization, or have I mischaracterized what we wanted from him today. Lynn. I think, I think that's a fair characterization but the other thing we want from him today is what additional goals might he think are appropriate for this year, and that he will have one regarding the whole issue of public safety. Right. Exactly. Good. So those are the two primary might understand those are two primary questions that were put and we're going to mostly listening to him, but obviously we'll have questions I'm sure but. Yeah. No, the reason was that you'd use the term evaluation and wanted to make sure that we're distinguishing evaluation from goals. Because one's past tense and one's future tense in the sense. Was it really about the goals that we were looking for this input. That's a question I'd like to hear from others. It's not clear in my mind that's why I'm raising it. Totally about the goals. Yeah, we are not discussing today his evaluation. Absolutely not no yeah I understand that. But I guess I guess the form itself the, the way you know, I'm not being clear I guess but I understand we're not talking about his talking about his his evaluation, but we're trying to get clear on the goals. And that's it. Pretty much. I think there might be a time after we complete the evaluation round this year to get feedback from lots of people including Paul about the evaluation format this year. What did we like what was approved. What do we want to do in the future. And that's today. Right, this is about goals and the process when we go into that future discussion. Good. Anyone else and he thoughts and because that's I essentially expect to largely have Paul speaking on with maybe a few basic questions about, you know, what what's what does he want what does he think would be appropriate etc in terms of goals. All right. Can we turn to the resolution regarding holy oak soldiers home and whether this resolution is clear, consistent and actionable. Again somebody remind me of the sponsors. They won't recall I should know but I don't. Andy Joe and myself. And I think Dorothy p.m. So Mandy. Lin and Dorothy. I believe those are the three. Although there were many counselors interested in seeing this, especially. Yeah, there's the resurgence of COVID there. So I have two questions. A question in the comment. I'll start with a question first. Was this something that was sent to us by our veterans agent or somebody else or was. Was there a source that we worked from. It was sent to us by a committee of looking at soldiers home of which Steve Connor is a member. And when I checked back with him on, he totally and completely is in favor of a resolution and hopes to be at the meeting on Monday night in support of it. Let me get to the comment that I have. When you look at the bottom of the resolution itself and I'm not, you know, I'm not sharing so somebody else does. That's fine but the first actual clause or it says now therefore be it resolved. Council urges governor Baker and the legislature take immediate action. The words to increase funding. We're in a very weird place right now where when we encourage the legislature to fund something. How does that go in weight against other requests, including our own requests, which are going to be very difficult this year like no decrease in unrestricted government aid or an increase in regional transportation expenses. So I was going to raise the question about removing those three words to increase funding so it would. The alternate wording would be the legislature take immediate action to ensure sufficient staff equipment and supplies. Well, you may need new funding to do that and that's a fair reading. It doesn't put us in the position of saying, we want funding for this and how does that compare with our other funding requests, which we are making as a town and serve direct town interests. So I'm going to draw the line here. Two things. First of all, we need to get this up on the screen and I am not able to do that. So if Mandy or I can do it. You know, you can see where it's circled if you want. Right. I have to compare the point. Sandy knows exactly where I'm talking about. So if we have it up on the screen. Number one. Who is this actually this sounds like a content discussion about the message itself. Not about whether it's clear consistent and actionable unless you're raising an action ability question. But I don't see that here so just a question for the committee is this actually something relevant to our charge. Andy's question. I got back to my original question. About the, the request for funding. Oh, has her hand up. I'm sorry, please go ahead. Sorry when I'm sharing a screen it's harder for me to get my hand up. The lawyer and me would always say it goes to in this instance, potentially consistency, consistency with other positions. And would, would a charge of increasing funding be consistent with increasing funding other places or other things we're asking to do. You know, like I said, the lawyer and we can pretty much draw anything back to clarity consistency or action ability as a sponsor. I would be totally fine with removing those three words. I don't know about Lynn as a sponsor either, but I'm fine with removing them. I do understand. I see it as I'm hearing your question as is this competing for other asks we are making. And that's something that we always have to balance off as a town. But I'm fine with removing that if it makes people more comfortable because when you say to ensure sufficient staff equipment and supplies you're basically implying funding so take it out. I don't see any other hands I have something to say but I want to see if Pat, or anyone else has anything. Given the content of this resolution, which it makes clear that the main problem has been in fact the lack of funding. It would seem to be odd at the end to not put that in there was to take it out. We'd seem a little strange given the content of the resolution and that it's basically saying repeatedly you've made promises to fund this and repeatedly you've not funded it. Therefore, let us we resolve that you should, you know, how would it be basically resolve that, you know, you take action. And it would seem that in fact, given what the resolution says, what is being resolved is that you actually give them some money. And how you figure that out. And what it competes with is is a whole other issue and it obviously will compete with a lot of other things. It's probably the reason it's never been funded in the past is because let's be honest, perhaps the veterans here don't have a strong advocacy group or they don't have the cloud that other groups have in Beacon Hill. But so I would actually be reluctant to take the language out from just the point of view of the nature or the content of this resolution seems to be basically about we're asking you to spend some money that you've promised to spend in the past. And to take it out here would seem to go against the actual message that this resolution is presenting. So I would be reluctant to take it out. Though I acknowledge that Andy's right that any request for funding in this time. That's true. That was true even before COVID-19. Right. I'm sure. Yeah, go ahead. I agree, Georgia. For me, just me individually, when we're asking them to take immediate action to ensure that feels stronger to me than the previous language. That's just a difference of opinion there. Okay. All right. Any other thoughts. I'm sorry. I just want to mention that this isn't a Eastern mass versus Western mass issue. The Eastern mass soldiers home is much better funded and equipped. And I think we need to stand up for our part of the state. But I'm, I agree with Pat. The statement is very strong when just the way it's now stated. The sponsors seem to be open to making this change. And I'm not going to. I just, I made my point, but other comments about the resolution, the language, et cetera, any observations concerns. I think Mandy actually has had a look at this. She actually did put it in the proper form. Thank you for doing that. I don't know or something that failed. That's part of what we do. I think so. I just found the. I just found the E and holy oak this one right here wasn't underlined or italicized. You ever. She's got a lawyer's eye. Any comments about this document in terms of its language consistency or action ability. I did want to just understand one thing and consistency. But I, it's not with any wording in the current draft as it now stands in the consistency thing was the one other resolution that I worked directly on was when we did I think in January, which also required legislative action that could likely lead to funding and that was eviction defense and right to counsel and evictions from residential evictions for years and I don't think that there was actually a funding statement in that resolution. We talked about the principle and the importance of doing it but we left the how it would be funded question or whether it would require a direct legislative appropriation. I believe silent I will have to go back and look at that but I remember working on it for a while and I didn't did not recall that being in there. So, it is a question that gets into this whole thing as to how we go about determining consistency and whether we really need to go back and look at every last resolution that we do in order to make sure that the next one is consistent with the last ones. Any other thoughts comments is otherwise I'm ready for a motion. We recommend to the town council that they adopt. Well we declare lens so what we do is this resolution. Thank you. As amended on this day, clear consistent next. That is correct. And I've only been on GL for three months. I've been on longer I have the same problem don't worry. Second. So what is the motion is to declare the, what's the title here the holy oak soldiers home what is the official title holy oak soldiers home resolution resolution regarding. Okay, you want it. Okay, so to declare the resolution regarding the holy oak soldiers home as amended on this date to be clear consistent and actionable. And I believe I heard Pat second, is that correct. So we have a motion that's been seconded any other discussion. Then I'm going to call a question and proceed to a vote. And I'm going to begin with Pat the Angeles. Yes. So the resolution is to declare clear consistent action by a unanimous vote of five to zero. I noticed that Darcy is an attendee. So we have about five minutes and I don't think that's going to be enough time to, to address the issue of the plastic bag band, but we could start that discussion. Paul said he would appear at 11. So now I just need a sense of the committee. Do you want to start that discussion? Do you want to what we have also we have before us are three sets of minutes. And we could get those approved in these few minutes before 11 o'clock. I don't see how we can start the discussion on the plastic bag band at this point. We're going to need to hear from the sponsor, whether she in fact has changes she wishes to make. And if she has changes she wishes to make then we have to make sure we can all see them. And by that time we get that settled. So I think Paul is here. So my thought is that we will turn then immediately to discussion of town manager goals. And then I've a lot of an hour for this. I'm not sure we'll need all that time. It's also possible may Paul may be called away. I don't know if he even has an hour so he will tell us in a moment, but I've a lot of an hour. And then subsequent to that discussion. We'll come back and deal with the plastic bag band and hopefully get through our three minutes. And then we will have completed our agenda. We will do public comment. Also, after we've had this discussion with the town manager, is that acceptable so an hour is what I have allotted. We may not need it. Paul may not be able to stay for an hour, but and then we'll come back to the other matters. So, George, Darcy has raised her hand. I'm not sure I can bring a rend or can she just, I can help. Do you want me to add her as a panelist or just allow her to talk. Question for the committee. I think she did wish to be present for the discussion of the town manager goals. I think she probably should be brought in as a panelist. She does not create a quite a quorum so there's no danger. Okay, all right. So, if you do that, thank you. She'll be in. Here. Okay. So Paul. You can hear us I assume. Yes. Unfortunately. I'm just kidding. Thank you for coming. And I think you should probably heard me babbling there. We've allotted an hour. We may not need that amount of time. And as I mentioned to you, I think the other day, basically the committee has invited you here because we'd like to talk to you about goals and to hear get some input from you about something that has we've been doing what has worked what doesn't what you find helpful what you find useful. I think also there's a question about potential new goals and helping us perhaps identify some of those so does anyone on the committee want to add anything before I asked Paul to respond any particular way you want to question you want to raise beyond just getting his input on the process and also the goals themselves going forward. Anyone. Paul, I don't know if that yeah Darcy you have your hand raised. You need to unmute. I just wanted to mention that, you know, one of the sections of the goals in the current goals is climate action. And, you know, I was on the, the ad hoc committee, the last time. And so, you know, we had a lot of discussion about the climate action goals. So with the next version. It did occur to me that it might make sense for this committee to just get input from the ECAC about what what how the goals might be updated. I have an ECAC meeting today, which on which it's on the agenda. So I just and putting that out there that that might be a place where you could get it about whether the goals should be updated and how it should be called without further ado. So, Pat, Lynn and Darcy were all on the goal ad hoc goal committee last year. So we've had this sort of a conversation like this previously. I think the tension is between having a set number of a handful of goals that are easily recognized that anybody could articulate those are the goals for the organization. That's where the goal that's what the council is saying what are the goals for the organization. I know that the superintendent has basically five goals that he could tell you like they're implementing the dual language program and do these things. So those types of things. And then there's also the tension. So there's that sort of big picture thing. And then the, which should be the town councils major goals and then those get implemented to the town manager and then gets they flow to technically to the budget process and developing the budget to support the goals and then also they align their activities with the town council's goals. And then there's another piece of it, which is the town manager's performance, which, you know, under the superintendents when they look at it they have a sort of a standard of performance that they sort of look at. And, but it's not our ticket is just a separate thing. And so I think we've had sort of have a hybrid model because in terms of how what we've created so we have seven I think major categories but within each of those categories there's like, there's going to be some four to 12 things underneath it. The other tension we had is the sort of broad base goals versus what we're called smart goals which are measurable that you can say, did he do this or not check those are what you know, and performance goals you look for things that you know, produce this document yes, you check yes you get a get a check plus for that. Versus, you know, make progress on something what does that mean well we don't really know so if it's not quantifiable it becomes judgment. You know, when setting goals for the town manager the council should be thinking about what it really wants to do and I think what's the most valuable thing from my perspective is for the council to say, these are the big things we want to focus on which I think we did last year actually. Of course everything gets out of two issues with that one it didn't happen until January and then secondly got a month later gets up and did by the pandemic so you know we did make progress on a lot of the things. So, I think that that's, you know, it, you know, it was a, I think, last year schools were a better document than the previous years. They still have a lot of specificity in them. So, and I guess one of the things I would pose to the council is that you saw my written report to you which I did in response to your written goals. In some ways it felt absent of separate from what was really happening in a lot of ways. I'm just trying to align my response and that written document to directly to the goals document. So, from your point of view I guess the question to you is, does that goals document that I produce give you a picture that you feel that you can judge the performance of the town manager. Please go ahead. Following up a little bit on what Paul said and some thoughts that I had. So I'm sure I'm going to really cover two topics in my comment, but I'll first go to the whole question of what COVID-19 did in both requiring the entire town government, including obviously our manager, immediately address a critical issue that needed attention. That of course was going to take time and might affect other things that have to be that were in the goals previously. And how you go about it. Building that into the next year's goals where we now know we have a pandemic that's continuing. Also, whether we had sufficient flexibility whether there was a flexibility statement. In the document that sort of acknowledged that the town manager was expected to do exactly what he did, which was to address an unexpected crisis and that that was that was an expectation and one that we should be able to really laud him for his work on his on that. Or if he had failed critique but I don't think that's the issue here. So the question of flexibility and having some kind of clause like that, which then of course got into my as I was thinking through that issue. Whether the council needed a process that would allow it to make adjustments to goals mid year, if there are exceptional circumstances like we faced, which would sort of both provide cover and comfort and guidance sort of all three. So I was wondering if that was one thing we wanted to talk about. I'm going to stop and not go to the other topic because I wanted to leave that one before I get to my other question. All your response. So I, you know, it's interesting that you bring that up and because I think Dorothy actually brought it up in our conversations last year she said shouldn't we put earlier this year, shouldn't we put something in about emergency management that sounds like that be important and I think I poo pooed it. It's an ah, if that happens who knows, you know, for lack of foresight. Maybe have your hand up. Yes, thanks. I didn't know if I was on you. I think the other thing we have to look at with regard to the goals I mean part of me says, let's just adopt these goals and add one about policing and maybe get sharper here or less here and make sure flexibility is in there. That doesn't even work because some of these goals that might have been short term, like doing more stuff downtown. I mean, right now we're just trying to rescue downtown, whether or not we build something on the common is the furthest thing from our minds. And so there's a finding that comes along with the emergency aspect that kind of takes major pieces and just puts them on hold because and maybe at some point, they're no longer even relevant. But because the conditions have so changed. So I don't think you can just say, that's fine. This goal just needs to continue to go forward. So, Mandy. Yeah, I do think we need a major overall of these goals. I do think they're too long. I've always thought they're also a bit too specific, you know that some of these quote goals are almost telling the manager how to do his job versus giving him the leeway to figure out the best way to accomplish the overarching you know, and I can identify some you know when it's identified additional sources of revenue and number one I'm just staring at that one on my screen, 3D seek grants to support town goals to me. I don't even see why we have that in an important goals document to me that's just, you know, something you do as a worker in town is, you know, as an executive is you seek grants you seek money you seek that. Why do we have to set forth it and to answer Paul's question and reading his response as it goes to these goals. It's almost a checklist that doesn't that felt like it didn't give him the ability to pivot almost you know we had he had to pivot for the COVID but it's like okay well I've grabbed the three climate action documents. Okay, well I solved that goal now I don't have to do anything with them because we were so specific versus giving in a goals document more leeway to say you know here's what we want accomplished figure out a way to do it instead of indicating how to do it to so you know I and then there's the whole COVID thing and I do think we need to just just cut things out and be realistic and say there's a lot going on and because of where we are certain things as Lynn said aren't even reasonable to expect in the next year because of the economic situation and everything going on and then other things it's just too long you're not going to be able to accomplish at all what let's give a full guidance on what's the most important stuff for him to focus on Andy your hand is still up if you had said residual or do you have a further comment. Well I was partly just responding to what me and you just said but also getting in just so I can put the other topic on the table. I agree that the length of the goals and the specificity is a question. There's sort of a history behind a bunch of this stuff and of course you ask my former select board colleague Alyssa and she'll give you the entire history. And that's a question that's always out there because the town manager that she worked with 10 years ago didn't do something. It's not a reason that it needs to be in a goal now. But in any event it is something that I think is a good point so I agree with Andy. The other thing that I wanted to put out there is that is I have read the goals in the last couple of years and I was not involved in the goal setting process for 2020 and what struck me was that there's duplication between the council's budget process of establishing budget guidelines and the document of the goals themselves. And fortunately I realized as we were developing the budget guide document last year that there was enough consistency that it wasn't really problematic. But it seemed like it was a duplicate of document and that the finance committee ought to be having a role in looking at the financial sections and then it's a question of why are we doing this twice shouldn't it be in the guidelines document for the more specific kinds of things and shouldn't the guidelines are the goals be a little bit more specific and be a little bit more in alignment with the process that we've set up for the budget. So I started doing some playing around with it today but it was like an hour before the meeting so I didn't get far enough to have anything to share with you about it as I started suddenly realizing that I needed to grapple with that issue. But that was the other thing that I wanted to put out is that we need to sort of think through the financial part of the goals and how that relates to the rest of the budget process and that create two levels and too much confusion. And I don't know if it was a problem for you, Paul, but that's why you're here to give us feedback. No, I think that ultimately, and we may not get there all at once I think the fact that we're talking now is really a helpful that we're talking in July versus, you know, December last year. It's really helpful because I think they are they do interact, obviously. And I think it's a, I think the harder pieces for the council to say these are our major priorities. And a lot of them are sort of operational things like these, you know, strong fiscal management and stuff like that. And I think the one that was different last year was the climate action goal that was significant as a articulation of the town council of its goals for the year. And that has started that has said, Okay, this is where we're going because it was, you know, there's unclear, there was not clarity on that prior to the council's establishing that I think. I still think there are separate documents, but they certainly should be in alignment. Pat, you're on. Well, you can hear me. I'm sorry. Yes, we can. You were talking about the focus on energy and sustainability, and how important that was. And to me, one of the issues this year has to do with racism in Amherst, and he saying, How would you see that integrated, or is that a focus that you feel is has that same kind of potential to to and need to be articulated. I would hope that it would be clearly stated standalone goal for the organization for the police department and for the broad the broader community. And I think that that's, again, I think that would be a major statement by the council if that's what you said, right, you want, we want to really spend our where do we want to spend our time this year. We can't do everything. We've got to do something. And it's like, and then to hear from you where you want me to be spending time. And if it's talking about racial justice and, you know, systemic racism and all those things. Let's put some time into that, then that will, that will be the goal. But the council should be saying, Yes, that's what we really want to develop our time doing. Thank you. Lynn. So one of the possible ways to think about this is that we work for the broad statements. And then in a paragraph or in a parentheses. We just say this includes such areas as, and that just gives counselors down the road. A way to speak to their assessment of Paul and also get and rate it. And it gives Paul a sense of what was behind that goal in people's minds. So, because the idea of some. That then place confidence in our town manager to create the correct actions, or the, you know, try the right actions to achieve those goals. I think is much more in line with a council manager form of government than what we presently have. And I do, I agree with Andy. What we have now is increasingly a hybrid. It's a vestige of history. It's a, it's way too detailed. And, and then I just want to say on a whole complimentary thing. In the very first year of the council, we tried to establish goals as a council, and we, it met with some serious resistance, and we never got any further. And yet Paul kept saying, what are the priorities of the council, because that's how he sets his goals. So, in many ways, the town managers goals document, whether we want to accept it as this or not is the town council's goals. And I don't, yes, I'm not asking to go through a town council goal setting process again. I wasted a lot of time on that. But what I'm saying though, is that people need to look at the town manager's goals as our goals for the town. Darcy answer hand up Darcy. Yeah, I am I unmuted. Yes, you are. So I just wanted to let the committee know that the, because of the fact that the town council, you know, 10 tends to be out of the loop of what's going on with the energy and climate action committee. There, you know, no fault of ours. We just don't know what's going on there right now, but there is going to be a presentation at the next town council meeting that will give the council an update on the municipal vulnerability preparedness process timeline and the ECAC progress toward putting together a climate action and resilience plan. And so, I think this group will have more of a picture of what's being planned. So that you can incorporate that into the goals. If you want to use that as a framework or if ECAC makes recommendations to you about that will probably based on that, the information that you get in the presentation next Monday. I have two more hands up but I'd like to speak just briefly myself before it's okay. What I'm hearing here is is two different sort of models one's a checklist sort of, and one's a roadmap. And what I'm hearing is that, and please correct me both Paul and my colleagues. The most useful to Paul is a roadmap which is a set of priorities a set of, you know, broad, you know, goals. That's what I'm hearing I may be wrong and I was maybe what Paul really would like is is more something that's more of a checklist that this this this and this because we can actually say well he did or he didn't. If he didn't maybe this is why because it was out of his control whatever we can, we can actually write, but the broader ones, perhaps are more useful to him in the sense of this is where we're supposed to be headed. And I'm supposed to try to find ways to get us going in that direction, then we evaluate him at the end of the year. I know given these broad goals given this roadmap, did he move us in the direction we wanted to go in or not. And what we have right now seems to be a kind of hybrid, and it may be impossible to get away from it. I that's what we're struggling with, where we have these seven sort of broad goals. So here's where we want to go. And then beneath that we have some rather specific, sometimes very specific items that you can literally check off or not. So that's the two models I have in my head. Maybe there's a better metaphor better way of describing them. One of the questions is which is, which is the one we want as a council, but that's intimately connected to what's most useful to Paul as a manager. A set of broad goals and then he tries to figure out ways to execute them. And then we evaluate him on that, or a set of more like a checklist. So he looks at and he goes okay I got to do this I got to do this I got to do this and off he goes. One question I guess one to the committee. Is that a fair description of sort of the two possibilities and the hybrid is the third. And perhaps first though to Paul. And perhaps he's already stated this, I'm just making him say it again what's most useful to you a roadmap or checklist or a hybrid. And the, when the council articulates a civic goal, it has incredible power. If you say, we want the town to focus its staff and financial energy on addressing systemic racism in our organization. That's an incredible way, right. But that means a pretty big focus of a lot of people on a certain thing. And then, and, and again, if, you know, I think that part of a checklist is a lot easier for me because I can meet those terms pretty easily. But the, the, the most powerful thing is something with I can tell my staff at a staff meeting. Here are the three goals that the council really cares about this year. And we're going to talk about them every time we meet. These are the three major things that we're thinking about. And you could say we want more budget transparency. Whatever it could be a million, you could come up with lots of different options for this addressing climate changes as in the forefront, making actual movement on making our capital plan workable and reasonable. You know, I think there's a lot of different options available. Last year we talked a lot about economic development that was a hot topic at the time and now it's a totally different animal that we're talking about. We're still going to be talking about economic development. So bigger issue items that I can articulate to anybody who walks in off the street that these are the goal. These are the primary goals for the town. And they're only sometimes only one year goals. And that's, that's where I think the power comes from. And the idea of maintaining saying that do we have a balanced budget or not. I don't think that should be in a goal statement that should be expected, you know, I've lost track of order here I've got many hands up I think Mandy was next but I apologize if I've got the order wrong here, but Mandy, and then I think and then Pat, Mandy, Andy Pat. And Andy, Andy Pat. Start with to Mandy, please. And I support the broad goals. Not the checklist. I think, you know work we're hiring a CEO CEOs should be able to to figure out how to meet a broad goal without being given specific checklists and should be given the the flexibility to do it, how they best. the flexibility to do it, how they best think is proper. So, yeah, I liked Lynn's suggestion of broad goals with instead of A, B, C, D, E's afterward, maybe just a written paragraph that kind of sets forth parts of those A, B, C, D, E's but is not specific checklist type things that gives the manager more of a way to look at what the council is thinking instead of specific actions. Okay, Andy. Yeah, I'm gonna pick up a second on exactly what Mandy said because I was going sort of with my thinking on one particular issue. We talked about one example of something that blew up this year and required a lot of attention and we wanted our town manager, our CEO to pay attention to it and do what was necessary. The other was all of what happened with racial justice and that that was allowed community demand but there were aspects of that community demand that were making us uncomfortable because we thought that it was counterproductive to the long-term goal. So then it was a second example but that gets me to what I was really thinking about and that is that if we're gonna frame a goal around it, it is to follow up on what the council actually voted at the last meeting, which was a motion followed by adoption of the budget. The motion was a very specific expectation and so isn't a goal for the year that's very high on the list that the council made a commitment to something in that motion and that we're looking for the town manager to do what is appropriate to make sure that that motion is actually fulfilled because there's a community expectation that goes with that. So I'll leave it at that. Pat or Lynn, I'm not sure. Pat, thank you. Pat. Paul, I've experienced you as an incredibly thoughtful and disciplined, hard-working person. I have a lot of respect and belief in your ability to use your knowledge and your understanding and your guts to make decisions. And I feel like the decisions you made like adding $80,000 to the budget to address social justice issues, is it enough? No, but that gesture was incredibly important and it came from you. So what I would, I support the broad goals, what are the council's priorities and how then also do we facilitate you or free you to make the kind of improvisational decisions that you seem to do rather well. Lynn. So I'm going to suggest a process so that we can start moving forward. And I believe it would be useful to have something that I'll be at least bring out on our meeting on Monday to kind of get a sense of the council. Cause I'm hearing that this group would like to try to do the broad goal process with possibly explanations underneath. And so I think the way we could start right now is to let's look at the broad goals we had last year, the seven of them, and ask the question, what else do we need to add? And then we can ask the question, what do we need to take away? And then we can get into, or how do we need to tweak them? And then we can get into what belongs in a paragraph about them, something. I'm just trying to help us move forward. So I think one way to measure whether a goal is successful is if you can articulate it yourselves, is the council should all be able to say, here's what we're focused on this year. These are the three things, six things, whatever you choose, that you should be able to say, at the top of your head, without question, I don't have to look at a goal statement, I know what they are, because we are dedicating ourselves to this thing or that thing or the other thing. And you may have, maybe there's six, but you can say the top three. So I think that's where, I think that ability to focus energy by the council is very challenging, but I think that's where it really drives the mission of the organization forward. I want to be respectful of the time manager's time. And I also want to hear from the rest of you. My feeling is that we have a lot of work to do as a committee and we've been given, I think some very good suggestions today from Paul and guidance. Is there anything further that people questions they have for Paul specifically? But I don't see why we should keep him here any longer. It seems like right now we need to since begin the process of thinking about what Lynn has posed to us and what Paul has phrased nicely. Basically what do we want to make the key items and then getting that to the council at the next meeting at least to give them some idea of what we're thinking. So it sounds like that's our job now. Are there any specific questions people have for Paul related to that task for us? Or is there something else that you wanted to bring up that we haven't touched on yet? That's just a question. And I see two hands. Darcy has her hand up. Darcy? I don't have a question for Paul. So I don't want to keep him if we want to release him or you want to. I just have a comment, a question basically for the committee and that is, is there a problem with the way the FY20 evaluation went that would cause you to want to change it from it's more hybrid nature to this broad question format? I guess I don't, I'm wondering what the issue is. Well, I think we've been talking about it for the last 30, 40 minutes. There's a feeling that the document that has existed could be improved, there are problems with it. And what we're trying to do as a committee is think that through. So at least I, I'm sorry. Is that from your, I didn't hear like specific problems with I think there's a feeling that there's a great deal of specificity in it, more of like a checklist. And Lynn has suggested or proposed, it's just a proposal, it's just a suggestion. We're going to talk about it, I assume in a few minutes and perhaps more that we focus on the major goals, broad statements of principle, direction, roadmap, whatever you want to call it. And then beneath that, a paragraph, sort of laying out some of the specifics, but not the way it's been in the past, which is a series of like a checklist. That's a suggestion. Maybe in the end we'll keep the form that we have, but if the question has been raised, there seems to be some sense amongst other members of the committee that there's something we should work on and see if we can fix or improve. So I'd like us to get to that today, at least for a few minutes. So again, my question to my colleagues, are there any, I see Lynn has her hand up. Yeah, I also just want to reflect in a personal, my own personal experience of it, as heading an organization that, you know, during my 10 year grew from about 35 people to about 125, my goals stood on one page. And believe me, I couldn't have grown that organization if somebody had gotten seriously specific. So I really feel that what we are, what's happened is we have a remnant of a select board that first of all was considered to be kind of joined at the hip with management and has a history of maybe not feeling management was doing what they needed to do, so they got specific. And we promised ourselves that this is the year, we said we were going to try to do it last year and we were not able to, that this is the year that we would like to really look seriously at how we change our evaluation process, both timeline process statements. And so I would like us to at least try this for the moment, see, you know, how much time we can get from other people on the council and because certainly they're part of the voting body. But this is a beginning process. I also wanna point out that this year for first time in the letter to the public and then in a link to the letter to committee chairs, we actually stated the seven goals. We got comments back about the performance on the seven goals. Wow. So it's like be as clear to the public as we can be and provide the roadmap to the CEO to do the job. And let's get it. Tell them what we expect and get out of the way. We're here every day, every week, all the time, but we can't, we aren't the people that sit in town hall. You know, I'm not gonna say 724, but close to 724 and get out of the way, let him do his job. There's, yeah. So Paul, is there anything you would like to add? You're welcome to stay. I'm not taking you out of the meeting, but it's my sense is we have a lot of work to do as a group, you're welcome to stay, but is there anything in particular you want to add or some other point you want to make before I assume we go back to this broader discussion that we've started today? Is there anything that you had in particular wanted to mention or bring up or concerns or anything of that nature? I appreciate that you're taking this on early. I think it is important. I think whatever, you know, this is the progression. I think you're making some decisions that will last forever for a long time going down the road. You know, I think other counselors are thinking along these lines, you would see, I mean, counselor Ross has already put out his goals on affordable housing and things like that. So I mean, I think having those types of big picture things that you say we want to do these things is really does. I think, as Lynn said, when people say, did they, once you start saying what you're gonna do, it has generated a lot more energy and power, I think. So with that, I'm happy to head out. Okay. And we do need to check back with Paul before we take the final list to the council. So again, just to put it right, timeline, I mentioned to Paul and I will send another email that we do meet one, at least one more time, formally. And that my assumption would be we'd invite him back or offer him the opportunity to come back that one final time. So just heads up to you, Paul. Okay. Two weeks from hence, great today. Okay, I'll be there. Thank you. Next week, George. I'm sorry, I apologize. Wait a second, hold it. I think it's next Wednesday. That's true. That is our next meeting, is that correct? Okay. And the fifth, yes. The fifth is our next meeting. Sorry. And so, and the fifth is when we think we'll be able to, not the 19th, correct? The fifth is when we have to decide on a draft to send to the council under the timeline we've adopted. Sorry, Paul. Andy has his hand up. Andy, please, quickly. Yeah. I think what we're getting at is something important to recognize and that is that we really did change form of government. We didn't change the goals to go with the change in the form of government because the select board under the old structure was the executive and hired a manager to assist them in performing the executive function. We now have a council that is the legislative and legislatures by nature set broader goals but lead to the executive, the authority. So as we go forward, we should, in our discussion of this, keep reminding people that we do have a different form of government from the past and we're trying to evolve a document to the whole goal-setting process to adjust. I just want to add onto that because sometimes counselors express frustration that they can't add money to the budget. They say, oh, I get frustrated. I can cut my can't add. Why can't I add something? And the answer to that is you add it now. You say, here's my goal. And build a budget that meets that goal. This is when you have the opportunity to say, here's where we want you to establish your priorities as you start to do things. And we're gonna hold you accountable to that. So I think that that's an important thing to think about as we merge the finances with the activity. Okay, thanks everybody. And to just follow up on that because Darcy is still here. What the guidelines said in January and were repeated in May, I talked about a list of five or six items that the finance committee had developed from council discussions about things that could be, would be added if there was revenue available to do so. But we didn't go to the point of saying, so cut something to make sure that it happens, but it was framed in the other way. Energy, affordable housing, and reexamining the adequacy of staffing and FIRE EMS were three of those. So it sort of got back to the point that I raised very early in this discussion, which is that I would like to see us do a better job of aligning the entire financial process together with the gold civic process. All right, according to my timeline, which is obviously not written in stone by any means and only written by me, so who knows, right? We have about 15 minutes. We could stretch that a bit, but we do have the plastic bag ban I'd like us to get to today since the sponsor is present. And some minutes I'd really like to get out the door. That shouldn't take long, but the plastic bag ban, I don't have any idea how long that will take. But I think this is a discussion we don't wanna stop prematurely. So what do you all wanna do? I see Mandy's hand up. So to piggyback on Lynn's proposal, we can't draft this document in its entirety in a meeting. We need to assign someone to essentially come up with something once we agree on some of the broad stuff. So I guess my piggybacking is we've got seven big goals here. It sounds like we're adding an eighth at a minimum, which is systemic racism. And somehow the stuff underneath each of those seven, if we wanna keep all seven needs converted into sort of a paragraph statement. Short paragraph statement. So I guess one of the things I was gonna propose since Lynn has been so busy with the other half of the manager evaluation and everything, and everything else that goes along with being president during a pandemic, I was going to offer to try and do that before next week's Wednesday meeting because we have to have something for the council next week. And maybe if we have a draft, if we can settle on the seven or eight main things, I might be able to come back with a draft next week that we actually have something in front of us to discuss in a format that kind of goes to what we've been thinking about. Thank you. Well, I'm always happy to have someone step forward and volunteer to go into the breach. But in my mind right now, it's very unclear what, I mean, you've suggested we have, you've added systemic racism that in fact, I have some concerns about that, believe it or not. So, but something, some kind of additional goal perhaps. And that's eight. Do we wanna take any out? Given that we're moving more towards broader goals, roadmap, fiscal management, budget, is that, I mean, is that like, does that even need to be in there? Would you like me to put the present goals up on the screen? Sure, if you would, thank you. I mean, I assume it's sustainability, climate action that would stay, how we manage the staff. Is that, I mean, I guess I'm just, I'm really struggling here with, on the one hand, evaluating somebody as an executive, on the other hand, evaluating somebody as carrying out the larger goals of the organization. Yeah. I think we could do, combine some of the long-term planning stuff into economic development, climate action and also fiscal management. I would like to see a fiscal management goal stay, but reference the finance committee's budget guidelines instead of trying to redo it. If we're doing the broad goals, we can reference the finance committee guidelines as they're adopted. I guess the stuff in long-term planning, some of it goes to fiscal, some of it goes to economic development, maybe we can figure out a way to move that one along into sort of those other areas. Personnel management one seems basic for a manager. So if we're looking to drop one, that would probably be one I'd be willing to consider dropping. Yeah, I'm just gonna speak and I'm sorry, but my thought would be, but nonetheless, so I guess how does that get into the evaluation? So clearly you do want to evaluate your executive on how he manages his staff, treats his staff, et cetera. These are relevant concerns. They're not really goals, they're simply sort of, so I guess we're trying to, I'm struggling in my own mind between evaluating him on his ability to get us to go in the directions we wanted to go in terms of goals and then evaluating him on just how well he does his job day to day, how well does he manage his staff, how well we all hear about town, what is it, town council relations, so that could come out. But at the same time, when we evaluate him, surely that's something we think about, how well does he work with it? Does he answer, blah, blah, blah? Same with how he manages his staff. So if we take it out, things like this, where do they go? Andy, any thoughts on that? Or I have Andy's hand up and then let Darcy. Quickly, I would just say maybe we have a goal that's like day to day management or something that doesn't have a lot of description, but goes to that managing per what the charter says, you know, all the charter guidelines and, you know, good manage, I don't know what it would look like right now, but maybe that's like the last one, is that broadish one that allows us to do that evaluation. Brian. Andy. I think that we do need to step back and make sure, and Andy will do this if we, I know, is get back to the charter. The charter had a very long list of expectations actually for the manager. Sometimes I wondered if the charter went into too much detail on it, but we probably should make sure that what were our expectations are tie back to the charter. Darcy. Yeah, I'm, this is, I find that the issue of moving the responsibility to decide something from committee to committee in the council is a little crazy making because, you know, when the ad hoc committee came up with this process last year, we took, you know, our goal was to frame it so that people, the counselors were only responding to the main issue, the main points so that they wouldn't have to get into the smaller goals, but that it would serve as a guide, guidance for the town manager when he saw the over, you know, the main points that were being made. So that was, you know, we went through a whole process of trying to figure that out the last time around so that we wouldn't be doing so much micromanaging. So it's a little difficult for me to hear you all talking about now changing it again so that it's just, I guess, overriding overarching goals when I think it's actually beneficial to have the subcategories so that it does give guidance to the town manager. And at the time he said that that's what he wanted because it's easy to check things off. So I, and I feel very uncomfortable about taking some of these really, you know, big values of the town council like affordable housing and climate action and whatever else we decide on and somehow taking them out as main categories and just putting them into long-term planning. So one question I have is, you know, there's a fairly small number of municipalities that have the, you know, the council manager form of government. And did this group look at best practices? You know, are you looking at when you're deciding to change this all? Are you looking at those communities to see what they're doing? We didn't do that before. So although Shawnee might have. So I guess I'm just, I'm concerned that we're throwing out everything we decided before in favor of this other process, basically because we have another group of personalities deciding it, which I suggested by the way. So I'm partially to blame on that. I just am concerned that we're redoing everything again. And I'm not sure why. Pat has her hand up and then I have my hand up. Okay, I don't see anything. Go ahead, Pat. One of the things I like about getting rid of these, having the broader goal and then getting rid of all these little specifics is as an evaluator of the town manager's work, I have a flexibility that is lacking when I'm going through this checklist. And so it actually benefits my ability to critique and critique, support the work of the town manager in a way that this checklist, that's really all I have to say. Okay, Lynn? So Darcy, you and I were up both in that committee. And we did go back and forth to the idea of broad goals. And in fact, at one point I shared the example of what the superintendent goals looks like. I did not bring in other town manager goals. And I'm certainly willing to go look at some of those other town managers systems, maybe a way of checking through MMA on those kinds of things. But I do wanna mention that we had some of this very same debate last year. And in the end, we ended up with a hybrid, which is the broad goals and then the specific statements underneath. And various counselors either on the committee, but mostly even off contributed to some of that. For example, Evan became very, very clear about some of the specificity in economic development. So this is one of the reasons why, you know, I mean, we do need to take something to the council by the 15th, by the 17th, I guess. We're not gonna have anything to take to them by this Monday's meeting. And this Monday meeting agenda has become outrageous. I want to put it mildly. So I just wanna, there is a balance here and some of these conversations have been at least partially alluded to. And then in our previous group meeting, but I don't feel like any of us have completely embraced everything. What we did all agree to is that we should be looking at the overall evaluation process. And I might add, if I don't honestly know how many of you were filled in your county manager evaluation forms this year, because I haven't checked, but we basically did only have the manager, we only had rating scales for the Roman numerals and then the large A, B, et cetera. We did not get into the one, two, three, and fours. And which is something the committee discussed last year. What we have tentatively agreed is that we would ask Mandy to prepare a draft for discussion for the next meeting, which would, as I understand it broadly would lay out a set of broad goals fairly similar to the ones that we have in front of us. And then under that would be some kind of paragraph statement and would move away from a checklist format. That would form the basis of a discussion. She could share that with us before, as long as we do not talk about it. So it would be obviously ideal if we could see it individually before we actually talk about it. I'm sure she would try to do that, but we of course cannot discuss it, at least not more than what two of us. Is that what people wish? I have a question about the added goal and what that goal should be titled. And maybe I should just let Mandy, well, first of all, is that what we want? We want Mandy to go off and produce a draft document along the lines of what we described today. And then if possible, make that available to us to look at in advance. And then we would come prepared to discuss it in detail on August 5th. And that's the first question. The second is we are adding at least one, at least the moment it sounds like we're adding one category. Do we wanna add any other categories? And are we agreed as to what this category should be titled? That's a question. Anyone? Lynn? Well, I certainly believe that whatever we do around public safety needs to address systemic racism. In my mind, the broader issue, I wanna say I almost feel like there's two issues here, okay? For the town to say, we have a goal of, you know, making significant progress on ending systemic racism is just so large that I can't put my hands around it. For us to say that we are going to look at how we address the public safety and service of our town so that we can, and in there are issues around systemic racism, but they're not the only issues. And now we can start getting the details and we don't have time for that. I really wanna be careful that we write goals that are goals that municipal government can achieve and recognize in it that we're contributing to the overall goal of the greater society. That's how I feel about the racism. Pat, go ahead. Thank you. I don't have any trouble actually removing the systemic racism and calling this public safety. And for me, that's beyond the police portion of public safety. We're not talking about the public safety department. We're talking about public or community safety. And if we're going to talk about that and we're gonna make serious inroads, we're gonna be addressing systemic racism. If you go back to the people who were speaking, almost always there was a reference to feeling safe in the community around simple things that are very difficult because of racism. So for me, as long as the paragraph, I mean, I don't know what the paragraph would say, but I feel like it, I don't even know if it should say services. I feel comfortable with public safety or community safety or I feel that I think public safety would work. It works for me in many ways. I'm going to speak if I may go for it. Well, we've been talking about police and policing. And what I understood to be the decision of the council was to freeze to police positions and then have some kind of yet to be defined conversation, committee, group, task force, use whatever term you like that is supposed to report back to us somehow by January with recommendations. And those recommendations are about two specific positions in the police department. They weren't instructed to talk to us about systemic racism or anything else like that. It was just what would be the best way for us to deliver the services the police department provides given issues of homelessness, mental health, perhaps domestic disturbance and also issues, alleged issues of racial nature with the police department. But primary was basically how can we do a better job addressing the concerns of the community, problems of the community without necessarily resorting to someone with a gun was my understanding of what came out of all that. Now, I don't know how to put that as a header, but it does involve police and policing. And in that sense, public safety, I would not be happy with systemic racism as a header or title, though certainly that issue or some issue resembling it could be part of what is included. But it seems to be an issue about police and policing, specifically in Amherst and can we do a better job? Police departments interested in that discussion. I'm interested in that discussion. I think the council is interested in that discussion. So it seems like it's a goal. Maybe we can let Mandy just sort of, you know, work her magic and come up with something. And then we'll discuss it at our next meeting. I don't think we want to beat it to death here. Pat, you had your hand raised while I was talking. Yes. I appreciate what you're saying. I feel like you're limiting. Yes, we made a motion about looking at those two positions. But what we were trying to address is community concern. About police actions. That are separate from whether or not it's a mental health thing. We're taught. We've heard from community members. Besides defund one four, one three about black youth being followed out of stores by police officers. Young kids being interrogated without their parents there. Which is not happening to white kids to my knowledge, but has happened consistently in our town. So while I agree with you about the motion and the importance of it, I also feel like for me, I, I see the need to somehow or other address issues of the assumptions and the reactions that a police officer resident, a town council member has when they look at somebody. It's easier to not be afraid of Lynn Griezmer than it is to maybe Elwood, who's a wonderful maintenance guy. Some people are scared of him because he's black and he's one of the gentlest people I happen to know. And I would trust him. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that implicitly where limp would make a really good shop with their few is smart. So I really feel like getting away with this because we shared the district too. Can we move? I'm sorry. I really do. That's fine. But I think we're limiting what the issue is that we have to look at. Okay. We're agreed that we want an item eight. We want an item eight. We want an item eight. We want an item eight. She can certainly speak for herself if she has confused. She wants clarification. She can ask for it. But I think we want an item eight that deals. Broadly speaking with public safety, which would also include. Issues of racism, et cetera. Do we want to add any others to this list? Because we need to move on. Do, do we feel. Somewhere in here needs to be. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's. It's embedded inside, but I think it might be in the general. Management kind of goal. Mandy Joe talked about. All right. I have hands up. Let's Andy's hand spent up for a while. Andy, please. Yeah, I don't know. I think that the, since I put my hand up, the conversation has gone on for. The good direction. Yeah. As Mandy goes through this, I really. We have to come back to that. To the motion that was passed by the council. That the history of that motion was that. It's basically came out of the finance committee and a fairly long discussion. About how to balance. Current. The budget recommendation as made by the town manager. And. The. The. The. The. The expectations of where we can go forward. It was developed with the discussions with the town manager and actually a very dynamic process. That vault. Paul being present at. A series of. where what we came up with was, as Lynn knows, because she did kind of work that she's doing right now of trying to take that motion and craft the fine points that got there. It was then proposed to the council and the council passed it unanimously. There's a lot of history behind that motion and maybe taking that motion and working with it now to come up with wording as opposed to us doing it initially here does make sense. But I think the discussion that we've had today really speaks for itself, so I'll just drop it there. Mandy, do you have any particular questions? Can you hand was up earlier, but you took it down. But since you are being a task with this, then maybe your hand is up and I just don't see it. But anyway, do you have any particular questions or concerns about the task you've been given? I took it down. I was just going to confirm that it might be okay to try and combine some sections into other sections or move things around without actually losing the gist of the document as a whole, if that makes sense. Some of the things that I see in long-term planning or in these other things as we talked about could move to a different section as I'm drafting these things. And I just want to confirm that if it comes back like that as I try and come up with something that that would be okay as long as nothing's lost in general. Okay with me. I think it's yes my senses and people can speak for themselves on the committee. But I think that that would be more than than fine. I do have a quick question about an extra item related to ability to respond to the unforeseen or crises. I personally don't think it really belongs in this document. It's something people can comment on or whatever. But as a separate standalone, you know, item nine, I don't see the place or purpose of it. But maybe you could work it in somewhere else. That's just my personal opinion on that. Darcy, if you hand up. Yeah, thank you. I would like I'm I hope that the committee feels like they can add the words address racism to the public safety section. That's just separate from another comment that I have, which is to respond to what Mandy Joe just said about combining sections. I think it's a great idea to add the climate action to the planning section. But I would hope that it would still stay as a separate overarching goal. And that that it is more comprehensible if the overarching goals are stated separately is my suggestion. Okay. Unless there's further comment or discussion, I'd like to move on to the plastic bag band. What our understanding is that Mandy is very generously offered to do this, and that she will make every effort to get it to us in advance. And that we will then make this a primary focus of our discussion at the next meeting. Unless we've also invited Paul. So he will be at some point during that meeting, we'll have to decide, perhaps before we leave today, whether we want to have a discussion first and invite him later. That might be more appropriate. Anyway, that's something we need to think about. I don't think we want him to be present. I don't think he wants to be present for the entire two hours plus discussion. But we're actually doing two things next time. We're inviting Paul and we're also still hammering out our thoughts on the document. So I just clarify, we're having the meeting on August 5th, right? Correct. Yes. August 1030. All right. We have before us, at least possibly, I really not clear what's happening, but hopefully it'll be made clear to me by the sponsor. We have a plastic bag band. It's in your SharePoint. I think it's also in the, should be now in the official packet. The text of what we approved or I thought we approved a while back. And now my understanding is that there's been the thought of some change. So we have the sponsor present. And so if the sponsor could briefly speak to whether, in fact, there is a change being proposed and if it is, what it is, and if we could see it on the screen, it would be nice. I'll be right there. I'll be done momentarily. Well, I think first we need to be clear on what the change is. This and we need to be, the sponsor needs to tell us if it's going to be a change. And then she needs to tell us what the change is. And I assume she has the document or she sent the document. And then we could put it up. Yeah. Go ahead. Are we going to pull it up? Well, I'm not sure what we're pulling up. So... I sent you the document. Oh, you sent it to me. Okay. That's what I was just going to ask. Is this, Darcy, is what you want pulled up, what I had sent you showing the changes you asked me about? Yes. Okay. I can pull it up. Thank you, Mandy. So the, after the last meeting, I spent a lot of time thinking about the fact that one of the problems was that this committee didn't want to put into any bylaw something that wasn't enforceable. And that's why we ended up dropping the definitions of the different types of bags and so on. And so it occurred to me that, you know, other communities that have put plastic bag bands, in effect, had to deal with the same issue of how to, how to outline the types of reusable and alternate bags that they wanted to use without requiring them. And so I did find in the Sierra Club model legislation language that they used, which was, if you look under use regulations now, and I discuss this with Mandy Doe to see if she agreed. And so the language that is in these other regulations around the state is under number two here. If any retail establishment provides a checkout bag to customers, the bag shall comply with requirements of being either one of the lists of what we have defined, recyclable paper bag, a compostable bag, a biodegradable bag, or a reusable bag. So this sentence sort of answers the problem that we've had because we kind of went around and around about how to either eliminate it if it wasn't enforceable or make it enforceable. So this conditional language, if any retail establishment provides a checkout bag to customers, sort of, it answers that problem. So I'm asking that we add this language so that that will give guidance to retailers. And then that allows us to leave the definitions in. And Mandy Doe suggested that we take out two sentences in the purpose, which is fine with me because I think that it's actually a good thing not to be encouraging alternate bags because the purpose is to get people to use reusable bags, which are now legal. So, and George, I don't know if George has some other change he wanted to make. You had originally said something to me about that, George, but I don't know if you continue to want to do that. No, he has no changes to make. He's looking at what he thought was the new document that was going to the town council. And that's what he's looking at. And all he's trying to figure out is what changes were proposing. And what my understanding is that in under a purpose, you are deleting the sentence that says, I'm looking at the clean copy, because it's the one that I had sent to the council clerk and said, this is what's going to the council. Now, apparently, it's not what's good. Well, we'll see what's going to happen. But I'm just trying to figure out what's been changed. So under purpose, the second sentence is being deleted. Nothing else is changed until we I'm sorry. Your two sentences there that are deleted. Okay, two sentences not one. So starting at retail establishments. Is that correct all the way down? Yes, there's two sentences. Thank you, Darcy. Two sentences deleted under a purpose and under use regulations, a new item two. So it's now item one and item two. A new item is added as stated on the screen. And that are the those are the only changes that are being made to this document other than Scribner changes. So C becomes a D. And let me see if you can scroll. I'm sorry. I'm just working. I'm working with a document that I thought we had agreed on and was going to the council. And now there are further changes to be made. Fine. George, you've identified them. I had when I the document I pulled up is what I sent back to Darcy. So it was not off of the clean version. I apologize for that. So it's really hard to read. But those were the two. Yeah. Okay. All right. So the committee I hopefully is clear. Perhaps clearer than I am that those are the two changes. And now the question is before us. Do we want to declare these changes along with the entire document revised now clear consistent and actionable? That's the question. Any comments from any of my colleagues questions, concerns? Defining silence. That can be a good thing. Meaning yes, go ahead. So I was the member of the committee that voted against this for the reasons that keeping the definitions in and putting that sentence up here seemed to not make the bylaw clearer and all. And I was, you know, so I think what Darcy has come up with allows me to vote to declare clear consistent and actionable because it does have a shall. Now those definitions have a purpose besides just being there. And all. And so I think it's a good change that she found and found from the Sierra Club and is proposing. I do have one. Now that I added the numbers in, I think in our bylaws, we don't do parentheses. We do dots. So I would down here just change the one, two, three, four to out of parentheses into dots. That's a Scrivener type thing. But All right. Amongst my colleagues, any other thoughts, comments, concerns, because it looks like we have now a revision of the revision of the revision, but improved, new and improved. It's hard for me to comment because they're sort of seeing it in the final form for the first time in this way. It seems like it really is a tremendous improvement address is everything that we talked about. But it's sort of hard to do this without having some time with the document. I'm also a little bit confused as to what ultimately went to town count to the town attorney. Right. This, this has not been sent to the town attorney. Only the previous document was sent to the town attorney. Did any document go to the town attorney? I didn't think so because we were, what council was attempting to do was something that had already been adopted and enforced for a long time. We'd agree not to send it for attorney review. And we're right. I'm losing track of what's out there and what isn't. This is not out there. So it's not going to have attorney review unless we decide it needs it. So can we just get the sent to us and then put it on the agenda again for Wednesday of next week? I don't think there's an unreasonable suggestion. I think Mandy's argument is that we vetted this and we're happy with it, but she was not, and she expressed her concerns. The sponsor then, she worked with the sponsor and came up with a resolution to her concerns. So that just based on that, based on our previous action and based on Mandy's presentation here today along with the sponsor, it would seem that there have been no changes that would alter our previous vote. And the only change has been made that would alter Mandy's vote to make it unanimous. And the only question would be, Andy, and I understand that you have every right. If you don't see why the change was made, given Mandy's explanation, then yes, we would probably have to wait and we could wait until next time and take this up one last time when you have a clean copy in front of you. But I guess arguing from the other side for a moment, we had no problem with this before. These changes have been made to address a particular concern that Mandy raised with the sponsor's approval. And so I think it's not unreasonable to think that, okay, we can vote on it now. But if you wish, I'm perfectly willing to postpone this until next week and allow you, I'm sorry. I spoke out of turn. I'm sorry. That's all right. But yes, you did speak out of turn. So I will be quiet and let my colleague speak. Pat. I just wanted to say no, I think that we voted four to one last time that it was clear, consistent and actionable, and it should go to the council. And there is no major change to it really. And it would be silly to delay it. Any other thoughts? Andy's spoken. Lynn, any thoughts on this? I think Mandy's probably spoken, but she can certainly add her voice. But Lindy, any thoughts? No, I'm fine. I mean, I'm also fine if we move it off the agenda, but then it won't come back up till the 21st of August. Okay. Right. So what I'm hearing is one counselor who would prefer to postpone this. And at least, I'm sorry, two and a half, maybe three counselors are willing to act on it now. Does anyone want to say anything else? Because I don't think we need to have a vote on this unless someone wants to make a motion other than the motion to approve it as clear, consistent to accept it as clear, consistent and actionable. And I'm willing to entertain that motion. I'm also willing to entertain another motion if someone wishes to make it. But I'm not going to make either one. Anyone wish to make a motion? George? Yes. I will make a motion to declare the most recent, the single-use plastic bag prohibition revisions as revised, as presented at GOL today, clear, consistent and actionable. There's a second. Second. All right. We have a motion. It's been seconded. Any further discussion? I guess that I'm feeling uncomfortable mostly because we've got wording changes that really didn't get to every member of the committee. I think, as I understand them, that they really do what we wanted to do. But I just don't feel like this is a process where it has come back to us to look at in advance of today's meeting, just putting it out in the format that is now in front of us is very confusing to follow because it's a document that has had a lot of changes. So I probably will have been from today's road because I feel like I haven't had an opportunity to really look at it and feel comfortable voting yes nor do I feel comfortable voting no. Find it a very weird process that we've not through it. I hear you, Andy. I understand. Darcy? I just want to express some words of reassurance to Andy and others that this language is directly from the model plastic bag ban legislation, as we said, of the Sierra Club. So it's not something that anyone just made up. So that's reassuring. No, it is reassuring, but I find it very difficult. I'm looking at the screen right now where I can't really read what's on the screen because it's compressed in size and has all of the interliniations. Maybe if I take off my participant list for a moment, but that's the problem that I'm having. Andy, I understand it. I appreciate it. I just, I guess, I'll reiterate my somewhat eager defense, which is that one sentence has been added and two sentences have been deleted from a document we've already approved at four zero one. And the one has now agreed that it meets her concerns. And this will not be seen by the council now until the end of August. I'm not happy with the process. Part of that I think rests on my shoulders. But we have a motion that's been seconded. And I'm ready to come to a vote unless there's further discussion. I just want to point out if we vote today, then it will come to the council on the third. I'm not clear that it's urgent and the council agenda for the third is jammed. If we wait until the fifth vote, it will come up on the council agenda for the 31st of August. Okay. So, unless there's further discussion, I'm ready to go to vote. Pat. Yes. Lynn. Yes. Mandy. Yes. Andy. And I am a yes. So the vote is for and not opposed one abstain. And I will do my best. I was kind of hoping I wouldn't have to write a committee report for. Oh, well, I'll do my best to try and explain this to my the rest of my colleagues. We have before us a set of minutes what I'm going to suggest is I'm sorry. I'm just hearing noise. I'm not sure if it's okay. No, okay. I'm going to suggest that we either have a motion to approve all three or you simply agree to edit them and submit them as approved. Any thoughts from my colleagues on what they want to do with you? George, can you hear me? Yes, I can, Andy. Okay. So actually, it's very simple thing on the minutes for July 1st. Yep. Where you have others present. Yes. Put in Bernie Kubiak's name, but did not include the other people that we interviewed on that date. Right. And that doesn't make sense to me. So if we just add in everybody who was interviewed on that date, which are all reflected further on the minutes, then I'm fine with that set of minutes. And I'm fine with all sets of minutes. Okay. Just don't feel like having Bernie's name. I agree. That doesn't make sense. Any other changes? Plus people could send them to me separately, but my thought is I would go through making a change that Andy's just pointed out. I think there were a couple of scrivener mistakes, misspellings. I didn't see anything substantive, but and then I would submit them to the clerk as approved with your permission. Lynn, I'm sorry. So moved. All right. So I'm going to do it by consensus. Consensus of the committee is that you may submit to me any changes you wish over the next few days. I will not be submitting these to the town clerk for at least a couple of days, but I will. And these three sets of minutes, I've noted Andy's change. And so please, if you see anything else, when you get a chance to look at them, please send it to me. Otherwise, you're giving me the authority to submit them as approved. All right. I think we have a pretty clear sense of what's coming in a week. And that's it, unless something else gets thrown at us at the last minute. That is the time manager goals. Thank you again to Mandy and the time manager we present. Lynn. I want to raise one other question or one other item for the future. Yep. And it relates to rules of procedure. Yep. And it relates to the powers of the chair of a committee. Okay. And I just want to make sure we put it on the docket so that we don't lose it. So powers of the chair of committee chairs powers of committee chairs. Right. To be added to a future agenda sooner rather than later, not I take it next week, but it does not need to be next week, but it does need to be dust. Okay, we want to review the rules of procedure relating to powers of committee chairs. Yeah. Fair enough. Good. Any other items people wish to be added to a future agenda. All right. Then I am prepared to declare this meeting adjourned. Thanks, George. Thank you all. Thank you, Mandy, Pat, Andy, Lynn. Thank you, Tina. Thank you, Emily. Bye. Good night, Moon. Talk to you later, George. Talk to you later. Absolutely.