 Hello, and welcome to Release Date Rewind. My name is Marc J. Parker, and I am a film lover, filmmaker, film celebrator. And normally this is an audio podcast, wherever you get your podcasts on your favorite apps. But thanks to Portland Media Center, you are about to watch the video component of this show where I celebrate movie anniversaries with my friends. Each month I usually talk about two different movies that I love with different friends, and we talk about the making of the movies, trivia, any fun memories associated with them. So I hope you enjoy, because now it's time to rewind. Their friend Bill Murray, who's so good in this, what a fun, what a fun, like, understated role. Because you know, he can be, I just finally watched Scrooge over the weekend for Christmas. Oh, my absolute other favorite. I, again, I had been wanting to watch that for years, and I somehow missed it. And wow, what a, what a great late 80s weird, you know, like, I feel like that and Beetlejuice make a great combo just because they're so loud and wild, you know. But yeah, it was just so fun to see Bill Murray in a role where he's not shouting, you know, he's very, his humor is flat and dry and really good. But anyway, but I did think it was weird. We never saw the play. We see the sign at the end, you know, it says their names on the on the marquee. But yeah, we don't ever see Terry again. And I was like, wait, she's the lady I think most of us actually care about. I don't know, right? I would not be surprised if there was something that they cut for a time. That's a really good scene. Yeah. I wouldn't be sure. And I don't have that on record. Like I, I, I agree with you that I wanted to see her one more time as well. Right. Just to see how, how did the play turn out? Because she's, you know, we know what he's doing to her. We know we see her waiting and all the mixed signals. So it's like, well, yeah, let me catch up with her one last time to see that she's doing well. Yeah. And that like, you know, the, the woman that we see who's anxious and nervous and having trouble accessing her anger is really able to do that on stage because I think it's like if you give her that small success, we can, we can't forgive Michael wholeheartedly, but we at least are like, ah, but she's in the play and everyone's loving her and she's fantastic. Right. Yeah. Even if it was just like one moment where you see them being like fantastic and engaged together, I think that's a really good point because I do think that is such a classic, you know, exasperation scene of like, you know, her, her last speech. It's so, I mean, it's also what got her nominated, I'm sure. Right. I mean, the whole performance, but I'm sure that was one that they probably showed or thought of, you know, when she was getting nominated. But yeah, I agree. I think she gets a little bit of a shortage. Now, do you think Jessica Lang deserved the Oscar or? Oh my gosh, well, I let's let's do you have it up there. If I'm remembering correctly, based on what the other nominees as we're talking close in the world, according to Garp. And I know this because I did not discover until the other day that Terry Garr had written a memoir and now I have to buy it. But I was able to, you know, borrow it quickly from my library online ebook so I could look at it before we were talking Oh my gosh, you're such a great researcher. Wow. Oh, well, thanks. I mean, but when I realized I am truly like a real fan of hers, like I love her. I want a t-shirt with her on it. Like her and Beverly DeAngelo are two of my favorite. What a duo. I would love to see the two of them in something today. Right. Forget book club. Exactly. But so her book is called Speed Bumps, Terry Garr. And she talks about how she thought Glenn Close was going to win for World According to Garp because it would her and Jessica would cancel out. Yep. But also Meryl Streep was nominated for Sophie's Choice. Yes, for lead or lead. Oh, that's what it is. She won. OK, so tell me. Tell me who else was in the supporting actor. So supporting actress Jessica and Terry Glenn Close, Kim Stanley, who was in Francis, which funny enough, star Jessica Lang. And just I didn't realize Jessica was nominated twice that year for both lead for Francis and then supporting for Tutsi. So Kim Stanley and then Leslie Ann Warren for Victor Victoria. Oh, my gosh, Victor Victoria. Was that your how funny another another switched identity? Yes. Gender bending. Yeah. Now, it doesn't look like Victor Victoria actually had that many knobs because this one had like 10 nominations. This was a big and, of course, made a ton of money. I mean, it was number one for like 13 weeks or something. But yeah, it's funny how this was the more prominent gender bending, you know, yeah, mistaken identity one. Yeah. But wow. Yeah, Jessica won, which is also interesting. And I'll tell you now a little bit about just a few of our kind of main players where they were in their careers. I forgot. I guess I never realized Jessica Lang was still kind of new at acting. It's I did not realize her debut was King Kong only about what? Six years prior to this. Wow. Wow. She I guess I guess because what? Did she start out as a model? I mean, I know that Gina Davis definitely got the role in this because she was a model. Right. And she's so fun in her little role and skimpy. Yeah, so skimpy. But but, you know, it didn't feel exploitative to me because it's just reminding Michael as Dorothy that like, oh, my God, we are not the same banging into the door. You know, like it's just some great physical comparison, you know. But yeah, Gina and and so yeah, I was just looking at Jessica Lang's filmography and I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, she she had done some movies, but not as many as others. I mean, Dustin Hoffman was already nominated a bunch for Oscars and had already won for Kramer versus Kramer. Right. So yeah, I guess in my mind, I just thought, oh, yeah, Jessica Lang had been around for a long time, but really she wasn't. So maybe she just was the the hot kind of like trying to envision who she'd be like now or who's like an Oscar winner. Maybe you remember like Alicia Vikander won that one year. You know, I feel like she did even less than, you know, the movies Jessica Lang had done, but like maybe someone like that. I was just sort of trying to like relate it to someone we know. You know what I'm thinking of? I think it's kind of connected to Charlize Theron when she was nominated for Cider House Rules. It was like, I don't know how much she had done before that. And then interesting. Yeah, you know, it was kind of like, who is this gorgeous dame? Right. Yeah, that's a really interesting comparison. Yeah, that's right. Because Cider House came out before Monster, which is what she won for. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so that's a good comparison. Blonde Beauty, who's really good and doesn't take all that long to kind of become like A-list award winner. Right. Exactly, exactly. And and I think too that that based on the notes I've, you know, heard from Elaine Mays talking about it and some of the other little blurbs. Jessica Lange was so loved for her theater work. And because she was together with Sam Shepard and Sam Shepard was such a big part of the theater world that it was like known in the New York scene that, you know, she's an actor, you know, OK. One of the reasons they were like, oh, let's see what she can do with a little bit of comedy and up against Dustin, who's also you know, such an actor. Exactly. Yes. So that makes sense. So I think it's also a little bit where it came from, where it's like, oh, who is the buzz on who's the buzz in the like theater world? You know, and we see that from a lot of the other actors who are in this piece, you know, although it's very interesting with time with Bill Murray, because I feel like, hey, you can argue with me, guys, and feel free to comment when you hear this. But for me, that's the first time I think Bill Murray is really clenching into like what his cinematic persona became because for that, he's on TV. He's doing SNL. He's got a few little bit parts here and there. But for me, it's like the combination of that writing plus Bill Murray, because, you know, like once again, Caddyshack, he's playing such a goof. Right. It's a goof. But this is that a cervix, clever, like, you know, deadpan. Deadpan. That becomes this guy we see for years and years up and even till Lawson translation, even up until, you know, he's in the Wes Anderson films. That is his kind of, you know, perfect combo, you know, his persona that he puts on. And I think that's also why for me, it's because, you know, the next movie he does that I think, even though it's a goofy movie, it's one of the best movies of that era, which is Ghostbusters. Right. That came out two years later. Yeah, I feel like he's pulling in some of this guy into that, that Ghostbusters character. Sort of like emotionless comedy. Like he keeps a pretty straight face in a lot of these movies, but it just lets the lines do their thing. Yeah, I have it here. So obviously, Tootsie was 82 the year before he was in Stripes. 1980 was Caddyshack. And then before that, 79 was meatballs. So it was. Yeah, I mean, he's definitely I mean, there is I mean, in Stripes, there's some of that rhinos for sure. But with the I don't know if you've seen those movies lately, but I think they're they're just not as he's just not as dry. And I think that dryness for me is where I really like see him finding the good match. But it could just be me because, you know, I also love all the kind of movies you just mentioned that came out before and watch them over and over and over again. And but for here, it's like it's like what I really love about Bill Murray performances and even in Scrooge, you know, it is much bigger. There's still that idea of like, you know, the guy who like the joke comes out the side of his mouth. Right. It's not always broadcasting the joke. Yes. That is one nutty hospital. I mean, this movie took some time to get made as well. Yes, it definitely is like switch directors, right? I was reading that Sidney Pollack came in later. Like you said, it was already Dustin Hoppin was already not only the star, but had exerted some creative control. Yeah. And I think I think you had Hal Ashby, which would have been fascinating, you know, you probably know him best for Harold and Maude, like a very different tone. And Sidney Pollack has talked about this being was a little hard for him because he doesn't consider himself a comedic director. But I think that might also be why the movie is so successful is that he's he's, I think, really directing it with a straight bent like this is this to him is it's not playing to the joke like the camera isn't playing to the joke. The camera is connecting to it as a as a kind of straight drama, which might be why it works. But apparently, you know, Dustin Hoffman is a hard guy to work with. I didn't know that much about that until looking into it for this movie. I know there was some stuff in his older age that I've heard about. Right. Right. But because he was so prolific, I mean, I saw so much as a young person in all kinds of movies. I just didn't know that that was that he was difficult. And because this was his baby, you know, Hal Ashby left. They fired Larry Gelbart, who was one of the main writers on the piece that had brought him in to do more notes. And, you know, Sidney Pollack talked about how Dustin drove him crazy throughout the whole production. It was just like, you know, hurdle after hurdle of, you know, this isn't how it should be. This should be like this. And but, you know, that's also what's kind of amazing about the subtext of the movie is that it's about difficult, a difficult actor. Yeah. And how perfect then for Sidney Pollack to play his agent. I know. And I love Sidney as the agents. Those are some of my favorite scenes there. Oh, my gosh, brilliant, brilliant stuff. Like even before Michael gets himself in this whole situation, they're back and forth is great. And then later and the whole reveal, I think it's at the Russian Tea Room, right? We're like, you know, excuse me, you know. Oh, my gosh. It's Michael Dorsey. God, I beg you to get some therapy. And I read somewhere, maybe you did, too, that Dabney Coleman, I guess, was actually the actor in mind for the agent to the to the point where I read somewhere that in their drafts of rewriting and revising, they had Dabney in mind for for Michael's agent. But I know that's so interesting. I guess somehow Sidney, I feel like I read that Dustin actually said, Sidney, you should be the agent and we save Dabney for, you know, the director, which Dabney is great as the director. Oh, my gosh, you know, that's another one of these for me unsung heroes of the 80s cinema is Dabney Coleman. I think he is so fantastic in everything he does. And even though he's playing a total creep, he is so good at being beyond a caricature. And yeah, he felt very real to me. Like that's how a director would be, especially, you know, someone who's been at this for a while. He wouldn't be just like that, like kind of a dick, but like, not more than just that, you know. Oh, absolutely. In the way he, you know, interacts with the crew and there was a lot of women. There was a woman, a woman A.D. And there's a woman, you know, producer. Yes, I love the producer. I mean, what is that actress's name, Doris Belak as Rita? I love Rita. Me too, lover. But I think it's like that was so smart in so many different ways to see how he reacts to all these different like women around him, including the starlets and how he reacts to them. And yeah, I just think you're so right. There's a humanity he brings to it that feels very realistic and and still super funny, although you he's on your hit list. Like, you know, you're not totally you're not you're not cheering for him, but you're still playing all of the the fun. And that's what's just so interesting that 40 years ago, this movie was talking about, you know, creepy male directors, you know, not treating their female stars well. And so I just wonder what people thought of that at the time. I bet a lot of people were like, yep, I've been there, but it seemed like nothing really changed for a while. Now, I think it's like, isn't it so funny how you could still people were still holding a mirror to things, right? And they were the sometimes the butt of a joke, but it wasn't something that was necessarily encouraging change. It was kind of almost like I think in some ways the reason that it becomes a butt of the joke is because it's something that everyone is so used to, that it is so commonplace that it's like, huh, well, if you if you can't laugh at it, then what are you going to do? Right? Where I do feel like if you were going to compare, which I already, of course, did the comparison with Dabney's part in nine to five and in Tutsi that in nine to five, it's so obvious that they're they're really trying to say, we have to change this. Like, we can't just, you know, let this happen. And I think in Tutsi, it's more like, oh, this is just the way it is. And we're just we're just going to get through it. Interesting. You know, and and I mean, I also just think, you know, you're someone who has been acting, performing theaters, television, film since you were young, that there's also a different kind of backstage banter and backstage behavior that I think has been kind of and that's what's so tricky about the Me Too movement that has been ignored in a much bigger way than I think in some other corporations because it's oh, that's just how it is, you know, artists, actors. It's all like we're a family and these things happen. And, you know, you know what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah. I think this is a good example of how it was just so easy for people just to like be like, oh, that's just what I have to deal with. There's just seeing the witnessing of them being like, this is what it's like to work my job. You know. And it's a really I quite liked how it doesn't take us long once we meet Julie, Jessica Lange's character while she's working, which I thought was just cool anyway to kind of because that's kind of when we really, you know, are getting to meet her that right off the bat, she's sort of rolling her eyes or like letting us know like she doesn't like that, you know, but she's sort of stuck, Michael. There are no other women like you. You're a man. Yes, I realize that, of course, but I'm also an actress. Tutsi kisses Julie and it's like, oh, God, you know, Dorothy's gay. You know, which then becomes a whole another issue, which is so funny. But on a layer and then it does get a little. There's a slight sense of homophobia there. But it's I don't think it's that Julie, you know, when she's like, we shouldn't be friends. I don't think it's because she thinks Dorothy's gay. I think it's just life's already complicated. And, you know, you have led my dad on. And then I just feel like, you know, you know what I mean? I do know what you mean. Yeah, it's not it's not blatant about her being attracted to her. It's about the kind of like you're saying the the circumstances surrounding it that she's feeling that. But I think it's also like, you know, you know, screenwriting 101 is what is the worst thing that can happen to your protagonist, you know, at the end of the second act based on what they're kind of working toward at the end of the first act. And in this case, I really love the fact that I don't know exactly how they're going to get there, but that everything crashes down on Michael slash Dorothy, you know, including that the, you know, profession of love of a kiss gets completely thwarted. You know, so I mean, I understand that there might be some underhanded thought of a homophobia there. But for me, it's like like you were talking to about him in his the desire to act and be respected as an actor is so important to him that he'll go to these kind of lengths. It's the same thing with that, where it's like the respect, you know, his his gumption and bravado to like go this far to have a part and then, you know, try to also, you know, connect to his his, you know, base the secret guy inside his human connection is of course going to be a complete disaster. It can't succeed. You know, it can't like it literally can't. Yeah, I think she's mostly just shocked and hurt because I mean, as we see, dad is proposing to Dorothy, right? He he's got the ring and they're out at whatever, wherever, Copacabana or I don't know, some, you know, and right. And so, oh my God, I just I wish I had a camera next time I'll have a camera on me because I was like along for the ride with this movie, I was laughing and it was just me in the room and gasping and like, like, how is Dorothy going to get out of this? How is Michael going to, you know, oh, so good. And that's the beauty of it, too, is that I think that part of the of the element of the spine of the story is still really strong and works, you know, even if you don't like certain things or you have issues with certain things, you can't deny that you are along for the ride. The building of the world, just think about it, too. You know, we've had a lot of behind the scenes movies, but I think with Tootsie, what's I think is amazing is that it's the world of Michael's world and then there's Dorothy's world. So you have two worlds you have to kind of, you know, introduce right away. And it's so seamless and easy when we're introduced to the world of Southern, what's it called? Oh, I think it's Southwest General. Yeah, well, we're introduced to the world of the set of Southwest General. It's seamless how we get to meet everybody because it's all happening in action. They're already shooting something like she's trying to get attention, you know, in that moment. And for me, there's like so many very specific story technical elements that they do so well that it's worth taking a look at it, even if you're not someone who's interested in comedy or you think there are questionable things going on in it, just in the basics. Kind of like I also say to folks when they will ask me about introducing lots of characters at the beginning of a movie and how tricky it can be. And I'm like, well, I think that Tootsie does that in a way, too, that is kind of you don't notice that it's happening. You know, you meet his world, his theater world and the players in it so quickly and they have that party always so smart. Whenever you can, anybody listening, if you are writing a screenplay and you're trying to figure out how to introduce your world so quickly, it's like, have a gathering. Everybody's there. And then you can kind of meet the world and see what kind of player he is in the world as well. And then saying with, you know, getting to the studio set, it's like everybody in one place already at work doing it. We get so much so quickly. And then we can start into the problem, you know, that he got the part and now what and like now what we're going to have fun with that. It's kind of like what I love, too, about the problem being raised here at the end of the first act is that it's actually a huge victory. But the victory presents so many problems, right? It's amazing, but it's also awful. Like, you know, you know, yeah, I so wish that I so far as a writer had come up with something that was like, oh, my God, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And oh, my God, I have no idea how I'm going to. And then later, when when Rita tells Dorothy, you know, you're you're a star. We want to renew your contract. It's like, wow, but also no. And he's begging his agent, you got to get me out of this. Meanwhile, Sydney Pollock's like, are you crazy? Like, no, never happened to you. Yes. I mean, oh, yeah, the predicament of it is so fun that way. And I think that's why it's always been a classic storytelling a trope is the mistaken identity because it just puts characters in such an absolute like conundrum so many times during the story. And that's where we get really excited as an audience. We're like, how? Because when he sleeps with Sandy, it's only big. I mean, that is brilliant. But I about your heart is immediately breaking because it's like, no, you are you are sending this girl down the wrong path. But he's he's in her room, right? Trying on her like the clothes and dress and stockings and all that. And then she comes out of the shower and he's just like, I want you, you know, like, it's so brilliant. But like, yeah, there are so many moments that have that double edged sword where oh, genius, but oh, God, the the effect of this is. Yeah. And I could see, too, if I'm writing that scene, I would not put it past me at all for my main character to be as terrible to someone in their life because of their overarching goal and the the mistaken identity, the, you know, the kind of conundrum that they're in, I would totally I don't know if I would do the exact same thing, but I could see myself going, oh, that's that's the that's going to be the most difficult thing is getting caught doing something like this. How do you get out of it? Right. And what would that guy do? Of course, he would do that. That's what the character would do, you know, as as cruel as it is. But I think there's also something about the time period that we're in where there is a sense. And this is I know this is gets a little bit more so a little bit later, but the, you know, AIDS crisis was kind of early days. There's a lot more like promiscuity in general being promoted in movies and TV in the late 70s, early 80s, where it was, you know, I think culturally, probably wouldn't have been seen as such a terrible thing that he slept with her in that, you know, everybody sleeps with everybody kind of thing. You know, except for the fact that she really likes him now, obviously, which is that which, you know, thinking about it, do you think she actually does like him or does she just like the attention? You know, like, and I don't I don't mean that a negative way. Just like, you know, that her acting coach and friend does view her as sort of the star of his life. Like, you know, I wonder because again, we don't get to I think the last time I realized the last time we actually see her is that great little moment where, of course, the end when Michael reveals himself on live TV, right? Because again, what amazing writing Rita, our girl Rita comes back in and she's like, well, our editor fell asleep and half the, you know, we have to go live. Yes, we have to we have to do half this episode live, you know, and how brilliant that then it's like, OK, here's this problem and I'm going to just go off script. And so that's the last time we see Sandy is she's watching it. She's hate watching, right? Because earlier she says like, I hate that actress. She's awful, right? But she's watching every episode and she I think is eating, right? And drops her food and kind of does a little scream seeing that that's Michael on TV. So, yeah, I just would have loved. I actually feel like I would love the ending to be Terry Gar and Jessica Lange walking off together like, yeah, this guy, right? Anyway, you know what I mean? Yes, like, who needs who need that? Like, you know, now, you know, Terry is on the show or doing her own thing. Oh, yeah, Jessica can be like, oh, you're an actress. Oh, I can help you get in. And it's like, should I just talk to her, not this guy, right? Or something like, yeah, I just feel like that's a fun. Going back to that original question, which is, does she really like him? I think about the toast at the party at the very beginning. And she's saying to Michael and really what she's saying is to a really like fantastic actor and coach, right? And not necessarily saying to me anything that connects to the fact that like, like, you know, her crush on him, I feel like it's so much more about being reverent to what he does to help her. And same with when, you know, he's taking her home from the party and she's so upset and she's worried about the audition and helping her. It doesn't feel like to me that her heart is on her sleeve and and she has this thing. I think it's like, you know, the way that you think you have a crush on your teacher who's so fantastic at what they do or is such a great actor. It's like, of course, she would want to date Michael because he's the director and he's so fantastic and she takes his class. But like, I think you're right. I think maybe it's also because Terry Garth such a great actress. Hey, guys, if Terry Garth, you're listening, like, we love you very good fan club. But that, you know, she's nuanced. She wants to be an actress so badly herself and she's also a single girl in New York and he's a hot commodity. So of course she's going to that would be great for her. Yeah. Maybe it's not so sad and mournful, you know, but it's just that kind of like comedic trope of like the kind of like foiled again. Like a single girl foiled again. Yes. But she did say that, you know, at that time, even though she didn't win the Oscar, she never thought she would get nominated for an Oscar for a role like that either. Wow. It wasn't something in her mind. But she said that, you know, her career was blazing. She had a really great house in the hills. She was a regular on The Tonight Show in late night with David Lunderman. She was on the cover of Ms. Magazine and in The New Yorker, Pauline Kale, who I also love her, your views of movies, called her the funniest, neurotic, ditzy dame on the screen. That does ring a bell. OK. She was really kind of like just like blazing. She was just happy to be kind of out there doing it. But it feels to me a little bit like the character in Tootsie. You know, she kind of was never the leading lady, right? She was always a supporting character, even though she was nominated for an Oscar, you know. Thanks so much for watching. Next time there's going to be a new movie that we'll talk about. So stay tuned and please follow Release Date Rewind on Instagram for updates. Bye.