 you i can't handle this attention no sorry well sorry i forgive you but we are indeed live once again god it feels like it wasn't yesterday that we were streaming an e-fap episode to be honest with you yeah it's because it wasn't it was today for me anyway well it was yesterday but not it was only 12 hours ago so you know crazy how life life will get you that way hello chat i was gonna say may as well guarantee that it's gonna cut out at least once during the stream but that's okay we're ready for it we know the drill now it's fine and then hopefully this will be the last one before my new internet is here i mean i guess it's not really a drill it's wait patiently for that's the drill i guess don't panic don't run don't you know assume the worst and go crazy no craziness here only nice and happinessness another of the switch again you know it's like after everything that we did yesterday slash today to stream again feel it does feel a little feels a little odd you know feels a little strange and we got another whole adventure i was actually gonna as mentioned but for me it was like it was work i was doing before we did the stream yesterday and then as soon as we were done with the other stream i did work on it i went to sleep for a bit and then did work on it ready for today i've got a compilation for us the oh yeah you always love those episodes right guys right um that's right i don't know if there were always something it's always something always something there always is his montages of madness but uh yeah i i noted on twitter the streamer azman gold of twitch was getting dog piled harassed and cancelled i that's just a reference to the party fap all he he said about it was just like yeah wow shit i pissed off a bunch of people which is probably a better attitude to say than to say like you've slighted me with cruelty or something you know dramatic and expressive but at the same time it's like what's going on scan on here and you sort of look into it and check it out and there was a main clip that was going viral and then if you dig into it there's some subjects that can be covered and then you know dig enough like i do sometimes and you find stuff that you weren't supposed to find i think or at least most people wouldn't want you to find and uh that's that's with that's what you've got ahead of you today humble e-fap listener who got plenty of things to deal with um but hey you know welcome to e-fap episode number is a 271 271 can you believe it we're almost at the halfway to the anniversary by the way uh man really nice yeah i guess so yeah really like this is probably the most it's ever felt like seriously we it wasn't that like but here if i just you know it's nearly February yeah i give it a couple of days and it'll be February it wasn't crazy january was like five days it's just gone feels like it was five days january always feels quick it's so much happening i guess or is the january's the month when nothing's happening right well uh it feels like it it just feels like it goes by quick yeah i guess so christmas and going on there all over and everything things are sort of going back to normal christmas and the holidays are over you have your little new year's party and then you're just sort of back to it and then for whatever reason it feels quick well we are joined by uh by uh john and moriati two wonderful wonderful people who to be honest with you you've guys been on this show so many times now that i feel bad even introducing you i'm just like whatever there they are you know you know these guys they are experts in the uh in the thing we're going to discuss today not at all two guys that i like the perspective of and ask to be here that's not it it's it's we brought them on for the professional careers in all of the discussions that are going to be had so um nice professional i so that's what we do here make everything perfect and wonderful and really there's not much else to to set up i'm sure many people in chat already know about this because it was all over the place it's probably already old news like yesterday type of thing and takes 40 hours for a thing to just be gone but i find it fascinating and hey it's it's it relates to that pal world game somewhat so you guys like your little video games out there so this will be interesting for you that way yeah i like video games there you go i actually have really enjoyed pal world too so see what is pal world about i don't know anything about it it's valhain with pokemon with guns valhain with pokemon and guns oh all right guns yes yeah there are guns in pal world there are yeah oh what do you do with the guns stare i asked you kill the pals with it you sure do oh my god you kill pals with guns oh yeah and then you can you can chop them up and eat them it's good oh my goodness it's good i don't know if i like this game well it's good i don't like it when you cut up and eat that when you shoot the pals and then cut them up and eat them again you can you can do that to dogs in that too so maybe oh no someone left a comment on our previous evap about how oh so it's it's annoying when you can't shoot children but it's fine when you can set dogs on fire so they'll say what the fuck set dogs on fire this is a reference to something i'm not aware of at all it could maybe it's the oblivion demo or something like that that when todd was showing off the like like how ai could just do stuff the npcs would just sort of do things um one of them set dogs on fire a woman like paralyzed the dog with a spell and stunned it and i think apparently later and this is on the patrician set i think is is she set the dog on fire after after it was stunned and i'm like oh my goodness what a terrible evil person i hope the dark brotherhood stabs her well all right fair enough then all these references i'm just not aware of um but we should probably not delay we should just get right into this first and foremost will be the clip that went viral that was shared we shall see it in its limited context and then we will see people reacting to it and then we will see asmongold talking about what he meant in the clip so see we can follow this story of events so first comes the clip expect me to draw a moral line i have to perceive a difference that i consider substantial and i do not consider the difference substantial between what do you guys that's the problem the clip begins just already is you just like i don't even know what he's talking about so we have to run with this so far no right no and that's really what matters if it was made with a i i'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence it's not a great quote in isolation uh it doesn't matter nobody really cares about this developer has been very positive about a i in the past and made an a i game we're gonna play this by the way i art imposter that was an a i artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games we're going this this week yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of a i rather than what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know i guess general twitter population which is that you know a i is bad and it takes jobs well a i and the sentiment from artists artist opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion of the people that are buying the product like it doesn't like your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't like nobody cares like it's not it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well respected and and really respectable directors talks about how bad marvel shut up old man shut up i like watching the thorn movie it was cool am i that's the clip that got around i'm uh my my opinion that asman gold is a a simpleton is this isn't helping damn all right it ain't it ain't helping i uh is for me that i sort of agree with him but i disagree with him at the same time my problem is this new context i don't fuck i need to know more about what they do yeah right like if it's just the kind of vague idea that that an artist's opinion doesn't matter on its commercial viability yeah i agree with that right like no well wait wait surely speaking of whether it whether it sells copies exactly you know that's just well all all he's saying is the thing that determines whether or not things are sold as if people buy them right which i agree with let's see if people people things are sold if people buy them is what he said yeah uh so it's kind of hard to disagree with that i feel like i need a lot more context well yeah you know when he said um uh i don't care if someone's made with ai it was fun it's like as a contextless clip there are contexts in which that that could be a really bad statement um but there's also context where it could be absolutely fine it's uh i just need to know more you know so it's like okay uh like i said we're going to see some people fine i think that those aren't going to be the typical context though um if you for instance i'm playing a dnd game and sargon's the dm and i'm playing with devy and arch and sargon is using he just like an image generator to just pop out some like npc faces and some stuff like that for the you know just the dnd game that we're playing and and that's useful for that you know so that's pretty it's it's good that he has that tool to work with um you know it helps for him to just sort of like generate something on the fly that does a decent enough job at getting a kind of you know an image or a vibe of you know whoever or wherever we are um but we don't treat it with a lot of we don't treat it with any reverence and he's not like yes i'm a i'm a artist and i'm able to really to create these worlds and do all these things because i could put the tags into the generator that's not being monetized um yeah i mean we're getting some super chess from it but yeah essentially yeah it's not being monetized he's not saying that i am an artist because i can do these things with the ai image generator right and you're not selling the art right like even though the art is being used there it's not the art that's being sold it's your experience and people are coming to see you and and watch uh you play a game right has nothing to do with the art the art is is purely supplemental to the experience in that case uh i think that's fine i think ai has a lot of i'm not a leadite right like i have a lot of uh uh hope for ai in the future um it's when it becomes sort of creative that i'm not a big fan of it at the moment uh and it's not even so much that it's like a not a big fan of it being used but just how it's being you seeing i think so yeah like creative in an artistic context right yeah when people like i'm an artist because i put in the words and then it generated a thousand pictures and i pick the ones that i like that's like you're not you're not an artist mate like don't say that you're you're some you're so tall it's the combination of saying i'm a talented artist and i'm amazing because i can do this and also like actual real artists they're shit and they suck balls and they're terrible do you remember um when we're covering denims she she generated the word uh curator as opposed to if if if she's the one that's choosing things and then people are entertained by it like she still has she she gets some level of appreciation for that right it's like um i and again i think it's it's very much about the use case if i'm wizards of the coast and i'm using artificial intelligence machine learning art generation right to create a card that i'm going to sell to you in a pack of magic cards i think that and i'm firing my artists at the exact same time which is what has been happening yeah i see some problems with that in the same way that i see problems with you know replacing anybody with automation i think that automation has issues commercially i can see that problem and i can see the problem with misrepresenting it to me the audience that is buying that where i'm saying my main issue with with this game right like i love this game and i want to play this game and i love the artwork on it and you're giving me something that was created in a matter of seconds right that's an issue for me i don't have a problem with somebody using it because i want to make a meme of brian griffin giving a hand job i don't yeah yeah that's it's fine um but even going to into the card stuff i know like when i played magic that sometimes you would recognize an artist's style in different cards that you owned and you're like oh that was a cool thing to notice where without even looking at the the little signature that might be on it you just you notice that oh this card in this card they have a similar style oh it's the same artist you know and that that's kind of like a neat little thing um instead of especially with the ai that's generated now that the the ai images now they're just they all look the fucking same and there's a problem with sort of correlating ai with everything right like if you're using ai as a sort of a an ad hoc editor uh to highlight issues that you maybe didn't see in a piece of of written work i can absolutely understand using that because you're using it as a tool and in that case it's no different than a grammar checker in a lot of if you're using ai because you want to shortcut your entire creative process that's an issue for me especially if you are trying to receive remuneration for it right like that's where it becomes a an ethical sticky point for me and i i should clarify because i'm sure that people i can see people in the chat mentioning my name but i'm not reading you yet um i'm sure that there are people who who will take that nuance to take in some sort of a very negative way um i'm not an expert on machine learning right but i i just i know that there are lots of use cases where ai is very very good if an ai can determine a cancer cell better than a human then it should be used if an ai can drive a car better than a human then it should be used uh it's when it becomes creative and when it affects uh commerce right when we're selling it to somebody like it has value that's when it becomes an issue to me in a creative set yeah like there's this there's this element of it just it seems like it sucks the soul out of things and i don't want to lose yeah right like there is no as an artist right like creating art going to to the philadelphia museum of art which i love because it has a whole lot of uh kandinsky and kandinsky is my favorite artist i love him so much seeing a kandinsky piece seeing it next to a Picasso and seeing these two artists and going wow look at you know the decades that brought them to these pieces these beautiful pieces that are affecting me emotionally and and i'm loving everything that i'm seeing here you know that's not something that you can replicate with ai you may be able to replicate something there but there's more of the human emotional attachment to these great pieces of art we we aren't seeing that i know that's not really the discussion here because we're talking about pokemon right and to be clear there is no evidence that pow world has any ai in it whatsoever not a single trace of it and i guarantee you that if there is nintendo with their billions of lawyers we'll find it eventually and it hasn't been found yet so that should tell you what you need to know about um if there's ai being used to steal pokemon right we'll find out but it's not existing in this and and i know that that's what we're talking about and i know that that's what asman will be talking about but it just gets simplified and condensed into this concept that all ai is bad because shad right like that's not it i'm sorry i'm going off surely the scope of the conversation will go beyond pow world here right i mean it doesn't stick on pow world for a moment a second it's uh it's really not about i don't know anything about it really other than um memes and nintendo lawsuit potentially yeah but i don't know what's going on with it it's just interesting to listen to uh opinions going back and forth and i love how fiery chat is we got both directions uh super passionate you guys have fun all right enjoy all these terrible takes chat um but what i was going to say it by the way it was like i wouldn't run with the whole like you know you said it all looks the same rags like well first of all even it won't forever but i mean i've seen all kinds of different ai generations that are different than the one you're probably referring to with the the murky blaring of weird things the weird thing is like we know that one commonly but sometimes yeah but what are you talking about it doesn't let it doesn't literally all look this i don't know if i can describe it verbally um you think you can tell whenever it's ai yeah i can usually tell that ever once in a while maybe i won't but for the most part just know all right i guess i love you but no i don't think you know right like you wouldn't be able to know that you're seeing it or not and this i've already been tricked a couple of times by different pieces i'll just be like oh shit it's ai right okay um but that's still i i think still relevant the fact that it's uh it causes a particular experience there's plenty that i can recognize easily but if i'm talking about all of it and some of the best stuff that's even designed to pass like you know the average smell check sort of thing uh it wouldn't matter anyway because we're gonna get through anyway the more relevant part of the conversation is if the technology is going to get to the point where it's going to get harder and harder to distinguish let's just fast forward past that conversation and get to the more fundamental questions that we actually care about when it comes to the topic of to help people understand jackson pollock's paintings versus an ai generation of one it would be pretty fucking hard for you to tell me which one of the five one of them is ai it's like good luck yeah it'd be very difficult but it's gonna be better because you know dolly came out what two years ago three years ago yeah and uh and it's already at this point now where you are generating stuff that is getting to congress with taylor swift being you know in porn um it's it's not gonna be much longer before we really won't be yeah that's the other part is the a lot of these uh points of con uh i don't know contention will evaporate over time with just the further generation so i feel like the argument needs to evolve and be more fundamental perhaps but we shall cover it the longer we go through because uh all kinds of things get brought up you just saw that i don't really understand much of it at all that's the thing it's it's it's kind of lame that it went as viral as it did because it's so contextless but we're gonna see some very angry responses to it the wrong about this looking at so many people angry with what i said is kind of shocking to me when you go to market with a product the only thing that matters is the consumer's perception of that product's value when did this come wrong only thing that matters if you yeah if you think that people are upset because you said people like like people determine like the like the supplies i don't even know how to like distill it down it's not the only thing that matters it's a thing that matters yeah it's not the only thing that matters well i was thinking that it's a super corporate soulless way of looking at things and well it's just you know there's the the idea of a stakeholder right that that doesn't necessarily include people who are like directly financially in connection with the company or its products it can it can relate to people who indirectly connected to the product compared to like a shareholder who owns the company there are there are stakeholders but when he says it's the only thing that matters matters to what to what yes exactly what does it matter to because if we're talking about what does it matter with regards to how much money it makes right that could definitely be the major determining factor is whether or not people buy it but but i might not buy it if the artist is like a really shitty asshole you know if he's a piece of shit and he sucks and he says bad things about me or the people that i like and know and then i might not buy his stuff i mean we see lots of people not being or rather separating art and artist and still buying the art even if they don't like the you see that all the time well yeah that that rides point would be that some people don't sure sure yeah and therefore therefore it would be said that it matters it can matter but then wouldn't that be the the consumer's perception of the product's value right like this is such a we have to know what he's talking about matters we need more specific claims still is what his name yes exactly the success of power world proves that the only thing customers actually care about is a good game by slavery bestiality copyright infringement it's a video game these are pretend problems that people don't actually care about make good game equals people buy game simple okay uh yeah so do you know that there is a huge market for organic food and free range chickens and stuff of that nature where people will go out of their way and even pay more for no tangible gain apart from that is actually gonna be ethically brought up later as a counterpoint but this is just at this point i'd be like so these are just unwise statements like i don't know why you would what why you would think people would be very angry for saying things like this yeah it's like people have ethics people have personal tastes and stuff like that you wouldn't see you know printed on recycled paper if you didn't it would be a non statement that meant nothing it would be a waste of ink to point to to put that on a card it says printed on recycled paper if people didn't care about these things also the to it this is not really it's the slavery and bestiality part i have no idea where that comes from but if it's referencing the game then it it's not really those things no no i think he's talking about so like slavery would be the production of like you know like sweatshops and stuff and then bestiality might be in relation to how animals are treated in certain industries i'm not sure this is all part of the game this is all power a hundred percent power well but those things as rags supposed to say that those the ai and copyright infringement are different from slavery and bestiality yeah those are all power yeah but two of them are in the game two of them are the matter of the game's creation well the slavery is kind of in there too you have sweatshops you can beat them you can put them on yeah that's in the game so the concept of yeah it's in the game you can put two of these things are meta things two of them are in the game and they're not even the real thing they're not you're not actually i don't know if you could fuck the pals or whatever but if uh but yeah it's not actually the thing itself yeah yeah i get that the the bcla is more implied right like there's a specific pal that says that they will want to sleep with human i don't even know i don't care about any of that i don't that's that's not i thought we were talking strictly about people's sort of desire for fun or you know consuming products will overwrite any moral issue they have with the creation of said product i thought that was the thing that we were talking about because those people exist but well they might be the most common as well but it's not an absolute which is what seems to be said here the success power proves the only thing customers actually care about is a good game which is funny because i've seen a lot of people saying the power isn't a good game like from the ground up is like designed like it's rushed and it's broken i'm already you have shit tasting video you're gonna let baller get away with that well so what i was about to say is that a good game could be a game you enjoy or could be a well-designed game or could be both i don't know sure yeah you know in this tweet and a little or a little in this tweet and then in the clip that we just saw i think what part of what's getting him into trouble is he's conflating nobody cares and it doesn't matter like he's sort of using those interchangeably i think there's a bit of a difference there like i'm sure there's a lot of people who like will buy iPhones but they're like aware of like apple sweatshops and they'll be like oh isn't that terrible i'm an example of that one iphone please yeah i bought a guy i bought a second hand one from a person so that i didn't you know buy from apple right so so i think plenty of people would agree that a lot of people don't care about the means in which these products are generated and they'll get the product anyway but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter i mean it's a problem yeah that's the what sweatshop the discussion but that that gives you guys the groundwork for his statements and now we get to see some people responding to him and we can we can sort of check out if we think these people are reasonable or just furious for everyone saying that has mingo is right just as an example as well this is literally a show that i think is a is pretty good show but some people won't watch it because they think that we're terrible horrible no good very bad people true um yep so they just won't watch the show and so that's just this is another example of that right a little reminder that a cherry picked consensus of nobody cares doesn't makes these things pretend problems they're real problems that people like him are simply too lazy and apathetic to care about there's a difference i consider that's the problem right you see what i was saying a problem well yeah he's using the wrong words you almost wish you could speak directly to asma gold because you're like you don't mean this right because that would be crazy and then i feel like you'd be like no i don't mean that i mean this you right right right right yeah okay because yeah i don't think he thinks that nobody cares like you know in isolation as a statement i think it's not going to be that it's going to be something else um but again like this is the thing this is the internet so this is this what happens now with with responses the end apathetic to care about there's a difference i consider zack to be a pretty good colleague in this space and i really feel this would have done better with a lot more empathy towards artists he's right that most consumers only care about the end product and not the ethics associated with and the industry will proceed with ai no matter what i wish most people could understand when it comes to artists it's mostly their data that these models are trained with and i feel if we're to use ai without the morals weighing us down we have to fin da way to compensate or give attributions to those whose art has fed these neural networks ai can be used for a lot of cool things and even game development by reducing crunch in many ways but for now we have to look at ways to properly credit those whose art is used without their consent to make these massive systems boy i i don't agree with this at all so i again i don't think that consumers only care about end products i just think that in the vast vast majority of cases no product is ever going to cross that ethical line that most people probably have um oh like there's a there's a zone a series of zones right like you can get away with x but once you do this you can't knowing if someone if someone buys shoes that were made by someone in a sweatshop on the other side of the world like no one feels good about doing that you know but a lot of people either don't think about it don't know about it or they're like as like it doesn't really matter to me but if they knew that it was but but if it came out and it said yeah that these are they're actually using slaves and they're being beaten and whipped and they're not paid at all and everything then yeah i think that company would actually die um well diamonds are proof that that doesn't rags right like that's proof that it doesn't because a significant number of blood diamonds are on the market and nobody cares and i'll give you a better example actually which is chocolate nearly a hundred percent of all cacao is farmed by child labor right nearly a hundred percent so if you're eating chocolate there is a nearly hundred percent chance that that bite of chocolate was farmed at some point by children it is just a fact wait is everyone still here is such a quagmire of a philosophical discussion because it's very difficult to have a consumer who understands the complete information of production processes and ethical practices with companies right and even with that sort of increased awareness your individual choice how much is it going to affect because it's very difficult to get into that kind of a thing and i disagree with this because it's taking a fence sitting position that it's okay to steal but as long as you credit right like that's what he's saying here um it's a very complex thing with with personal ethical trade-offs for how much you're willing to give uh into ethical consumerism rags do you have anything on the diamond thing i don't know what's the proximity to who the victims may or may not be um the fact that someone might be if if artist is if you if an ai essentially steals from some artist you've never met on the internet and don't know about then it will be different than knowing that artist personally and having them come to you and say that you know they're really upset that they found some you know drawing image generator that clearly stole one of their images um or if or or if you were you know living down the street from or if you met the you know the sweatshop worker or the the slave or whatever it was but when you're so removed from everything it's just that i guess human tendency to be you know less empathetic with people who are really far far away from you that you've never met yeah yeah i did how local it is to you absolutely you know um if you have to go and choose every chicken that you're going to eat right every single time and then you have to watch it die it's a lot different than going to a supermarket right i think um what we're highlighting here is that there's a a lot of care the word of the use the word care has been used like a binary like people either care or they don't when it's way more complicated than that yeah everyone pretty much everyone cares to some degree it's just where that line is and how how it affects them and they're well do they care more than their consumption of the product yeah which is everyone's drawing a line differently for that we can go to streams on both hands well i guess it's just like you know because most consumers only care about the product it's like i guess i guess generally sure but like what are boycotts look like if not the people a lot of people at the same time getting really uh uh worked up about a particular thing related to the product and then that manifesting in major ways commercially um i guess it's it's it's just like what is what is the thing that people are focusing on and right now people are focused on a i i still i don't know i i surely this response would mean it's like well i mean i i guess he would point to like well the game sold even though you were saying moriarty that there's no there's no evidence that power world uses our ai and anything but like even if there was that it's like well the game sold really well but then i guess you point to the flip side that there are people who are really pissed off about the game and pissed off about well yes i could totally see someone being like i am playing powwilds if let's say well we could just make up a game since it doesn't apply to powwild apparently but a game that has copied everything from somewhere else someone could be like i am playing that on ethical grounds you could be like okay fair enough and then some nice person might not you know like it it exists i'll give you a real world example that happened about a year ago actually was the the harry potter's game oh yeah a lot of people were did not want to engage with that because they don't want to enrich jk rowling yeah but they also that felt like strizand effects like situation well i think pow world is too pow world is is probably going to be the best selling game of this year it has sold 10 million copies on steam alone that's not including xbox it's not including game pass it's probably the best selling game already of the so there's good chance this is also a strizand well i mean yeah well the thing is that this ai thing seems to be ill founded for like pow world that's that's what i'm gathering because you can have a conversation regardless but it seems like a lot of people are saying that's this bullshit about the and that steam would have removed it had it done that it's just a total misunderstanding it is it is association guilt right it is people saying okay so the ceo at one point went to an ai conference and said that buzzfeed could use ai to rip off pokemon right oh clearly he did that then right it's not like well that it's because it's obviously inspired by pokemon a clearly and it's of course it is and it's intentionally so that's the whole marketing idea is that it's pokemon with guns it's literally their marketing you know message is a look pokemon with guns but but it's it's association that since he went to this thing it's like saying oh yeah i bought some bitcoin ones oh your crypto bro who's out there you know scamming nfts it's not the same thing you you are you're saying something you know here and people are accusing you of guilt because of that right like literally association um and there's nothing there's no evidence of that at all in this product so it's such a bad argument and and it's worse to see mutahar saying stuff like this because it's a fence sitting argument um what the part like the second half of the tweet right like you have to have this you have to agree that the art is being stolen without consent right like that has to be oh well i guess it and we are we talking about power world or like in general when it comes to me he's not talking about power world right i well i guess so the thing is i don't know whether people agree or disagree on whether the the these models like being trained on art that exists now is stealing or if it's fair use i'm pretty sure that's the thing that people fight about a lot all the time yeah so yeah i i so if it was like one has to make a decision on what they think is the case there and then of course whether or not if you know like whether or not there should be any change to the law in response to our in response to their stuff being uh becoming more um prominent yeah which goes back to ethical consumerism right like is if it's legal is it ethical right yeah like that's immediately a part of that conversation this is a quagmire of a discussion by the way we're not going to come up with an answer because there is no good answer yeah this is one of those you know yeah this is currently being discussed we're figuring it all out it's a big old society yes i think that's why this would be seen as fence sitting in the sense of it's like we need to make sure the bad things don't happen other the good things do happen it's like yes yes i mean pretty much we don't really know what they are yet yeah we're just again it's like part of the conversation is what are what are what are some of the outcomes that people can see and whether or not they're acceptable or unacceptable for instance the idea that many many many many many many artists could be losing employment in the future because of these tools is that is that a future that people are okay with or is that a future that people aren't okay with it's worth thinking about right but in terms of figuring out well okay if that's the case then does there need to be any changes reflected in i guess like consumer mindsets or legislation or anything like that well this is probably one of the calmer responses compared to what we're about to see oh good he's literally correct you can be angry all you want but consumers don't care how the product is made they care about the product itself all our technology is made from an unethical source yet here we are picking and choosing what to be angry about people um such a 101's this like that is super 101 right yeah this is the idea that you can't possibly buy what you were saying you can't be purely ethical so fuck it is not a great attitude yes i feel like we've already acknowledged and everyone does is like yeah we have limits and we are hypocritical like human beings but that doesn't mean we throw it all out right yes yeah i mean here's the thing right like i i would really like to be able to buy a phone that doesn't have the potential of slavery or blood in my hands but i also need a phone because that's the modern world and i'm not going to go live in a cave you know and eat just berries that's not going to be a thing that happens for me so i have to live within this ethical construct that we have and part of that means that in order to have a mobile phone i have to accept that that mobile phone has blood on it right like that's part of the the the agreement that we have with society is yes there's terrible things and we just got a fucking well yeah and we try to encourage everybody everybody tries to encourage everybody else to take even small strides and doing better things to make the place overall but that we simultaneously and advocacy and campaigns and boycotts and all those things are good parts of this yes yeah i mean ethical consumptions like i feel like everybody does engage with it somewhat um you try and we try to encourage you don't eat dog that's that's the first step right like you don't go in there and just just just pick these because you you feel this and you refuse to make that that step right well yeah because of i think uh if someone started with we only consume ethically then someone's like i've got you here here here and here you're inconsistent i feel like you can do the reverse which is we really only uh unethically consume and then someone could be like well no we got you here here and here you've made choices that are exclusively for ethical reasons yes so i would say that uh it's a little bit more complicated than that so i just said so you have no point like yes that's that's what i said yeah that's that yes you're right we have no point we have said nothing about you good job people often ask why games aren't considered art and i think this guy and a lot of the replies perfectly encapsulates part of it a lot of gamers and the industry itself simply treat games as products to be consumed and nothing more they don't give a shit about art so with this this right here right he is unfortunately equating the two meanings of the word right games are arts in the big kind of way that they are art and games are products that have literal art in them and there is a difference between those two meanings of the word fucking art yeah this is like um if there was like a tree to represent all the different arguments happening at once maybe even words and all the different definitions that they have of them how this thing gets out of hand real quick yes because now we're saying the asmongold is the reason people don't consider games art which is like uh i'll never understand the cognitive dissonance someone must have to consistently complain about modern entertainment and then promote a technology that is specifically designed to produce mass market slot break well so that one geez that that one's interesting to me as well because yeah like uh i assume has been a much like we do would say you should support games that are not only good like in terms of just content or execution but also industry related stuff it's like that you pick carefully without getting what uh companies you support and what creators you support and so it'd be like well well why care shouldn't you just go for whatever game is good quote-unquote we don't care about crunch if we didn't there wouldn't be this whole thing of oh we don't want our our developers crunch we'd be saying no crunch we want more games quicklier well and some people don't care about crunch which is sure some people think that fuck it you have crunch i don't care get me my game which is uh another whole subset of people i suppose it's just the uh i guess how much of this matters right if we if the starting statement is that none of it matters beyond how much you enjoy the thing it'd be like wow not quite you know yeah considering we're not aware of this i'm sorry right yeah i was uh deciding relating to the tweet is this well who was it who took the who was the game youtuber who took the um braid shadow legends ad was it skill up or who was it i think skill is one of people go on trouble for something like that right there's a couple of them yeah um but it's like this gives me the similar energy to that of you can't bitch and whine about how games are getting worse and how bad these companies are and all the layoffs and things like that and then also say well it's it's only what you know gets bought that matters it's only the product that matters and then say i don't care i had fun with the game so who cares if it was you know generated with a i it's like you gotta pick one you can't straddle both of these things yes gonna make some wonder what you actually care about if you know that's how you're looking at it and it's very personal right that was that way that was synthetic but it's like oh yes the man who argued that like modern gaming is a disaster but you should go play ray shadow legend he's a very ethical guy attainment and then promote a technology that is specifically designed to produce mass market slop breaking microsoft is laying off 1,900 people in its gaming division including activision blizzard just three months after closing its 69 billion dollars acquisition story coming shortly first the layoffs yes i had a text back to over the last couple years reported by this one right with with microsoft we knew this because they just bought uh 15 to 19 thousand employees when they picked up activision blizzard right like a 10 loss or even a 15 loss of redundancy is probably to be expected i know not everybody and that was redundant but a lot of them are going to be hr and it and things like that that frankly in a 70 billion dollar acquisition we knew about this a year and a half ago when it was announced there's gonna i guess it's just that it coincides with uh with with a trend that's been occurring broadly across the industry and this one is the biggest right yeah so five thousand or six thousand people are gone already this year yeah yeah last january and it's january right so already six thousand people have been laid off so there's a third of of all the people have been laid off in uh 2024 2023 there was like 10 000 people so it's a big it's a big jump already to see this many people being in the industry but that being said in this particular case while it is almost certainly a part or rather a confluence of the market as well there is this amount of redundancy that was expected and should have been expected and nobody should be surprised that people were laid off during this because it always happens in these mega acquisition just a fact of how it works well yeah well when you have companies operating independently they're prone to bloat you know like hiring too many people that they don't actually need and then all of a sudden you've got a big company that's overseeing everything assessing everything going hmm we don't need you we don't need you right yeah and it makes sense urge can't imagine how it must feel to work at blizzard and have one of your biggest personalities trending yesterday saying artists don't matter only for you your friends to get laid off today the artist don't matter has now been taken as just a a statement of fact in general which is obviously i mean presumably yeah like i mean i presume that he believes that otis matter the games that he likes matter well so what's what's interesting is um because i i've seen basically all of what has been called us several others uh it's very late into this whole discussion that he draws a distinction between personal value and market value and it's like which feels really like the word value you know like in matters these are careful with those words they can mean a lot of things a lot of things and it depends on who you're talking to by the way these are all these are all some of the highest like tweets that's that's that's why these have been shown this is all the cancellation quote-unquote of azmongold or all these tweets i think it's very interesting that we we see azmongold being considered owned by blizzard or even you know part of it just because he played wow a lot it's been like a really prominent is he like the most prominent sort of uh i guess world of warcraft related personality big i mean he comes from blizzard games right like he's a hearthstone and wow player that's like what he did where he comes from but this is in my mind the same as saying oh ninja he's speaking for epic because he played a lot of fortune well he's just he's he's a fan of blizzard right he's not taking payments or he wasn't an ex-employer he probably does get paid for things i i'm not going to even pretend to understand where but i'm sure he's been you know paid to go to blizzcon or something but he's not like right by them not an employee i mean i don't know i'm just wondering yeah i've never yeah i've never known him to do people see azmongold like that like he speaks for blizzard that seems strange apparently i know to be something i get clarification on it i didn't know if he had any connection to them beyond the fact that he played their games i have no idea yeah none no clue a couple of people in chav said blizzard hate him so there you go in his filth consuming things that wouldn't exist without artists shits on artists shits on devs shits on gamers probably shits on the floor in his bare mind this had like a 10 000 likes or something bedroom and still somehow people will say he's based anyways don't listen to me my opinion doesn't matter like the whole artist don't matter thing is just like it's it's it's gone way out of control artists opinion don't matter i regret ever listening to his streams watching his youtube videos every day for years on a side note it's funny how he shames wow devs for being lazy and then praises all others for being lazy he can't keep his own opinions consistent um did he not keep it consistent or did he give nuances well so what's what's interesting is like uh he's he would have shamed wow devs being lazy like so if if this the context for this is that he's critical of wow is like recent release and he sees evidence of lazy development versus someone's using ai which by the way not necessarily about power power think of this as theoretical someone uses ai to create a game that he finds fantastic and they he finds out they made it in like two minutes i don't think he'd care that much even though technically speaking that person's more lazy than the one that did the work he didn't like i think that would be so sort of something he wanted to highlight about reality he says that a couple times he he's not trying to he believes what he's saying is stating what is true what what people actually do and say and think and feel not that he's uh well we talked about it before on the subject of like how much do people value the effort or lack thereof on a game that is being worked on and i've talked about a lot because i find it a oh pardon me a really interesting quote it was in relation to halo two which uh was notorious in terms of uh crunch on that game and it was something that uh i'm paraphrasing but jason jones said it was something along the lines of they don't care you know they don't care if it took you six hours or if it took you six years and a gallon of blood um in relation to at the end of the day what people are invested in is the thing that you create um and obviously the things that you would add on to that is i think what you can see a lot of the time is that when people really like the thing that you've made when they also see that you worked really hard on it that earns you points i mean you see it with long rings all the time everybody talks about how hard they worked on that all the effort that went into crafting those films that people really care about that but then i think that the flip side would be if you made something that sucked and then you showed people that you had actually worked really hard on it that's not going to make them like it um they're still going to dislike it at the end of the day all of the work that you're putting into anything that you create the whole point of that work is that it's going to reflect in the final thing that you create the final piece that you create whether you know it's a game or a movie or anything like that that's what all the work is going into yeah um i think we see this too as youtubers maybe a little bit more closely right we can spend a thousand hours editing a video and it doesn't get any traction that doesn't mean that we earn you know we're owed views because we spent a thousand hours on this if the content is bad then the content is bad well in this case out of our control like discoverability and algorithm and stuff like that so i know genuinely could just be something that everyone's just not interested in too niche you know right nobody wants to care listen to you talk about you know your favorite type of bread or whatever like that's just not something people are interested in they don't click and they don't watch uh and that doesn't mean that just because you put thousands of hours in that oh i spent six thousand hours three years working 40 hours a week on this video that doesn't mean anything there's no minimum amount of hourly you know worth or value i suppose that that gets added into something if you sit and and stir a paint can for a thousand hours before you make a single mark that's not a thousand hour painting that somebody should care about right yeah that's another interesting bit of uh crazy d ones i would say but i worked really hard stirring stirring that paint for a thousand hours for no reason i remember it's uh it might be compensated i think it was the the one about the modern art one you remember that one um where he was talking about how there was like was it like a blank canvas or something or it was white yeah it was totally smooth the amount of effort that went into how difficult it would have been to make it look the way that it did and it's like yeah that's cool bro i can't see the rough strokes on it it's like yeah i sure can't it's nothing for me anyway what's in the next room yeah and i guess um yeah but but at the same time it's it's um you know that that can be aspects of like the nature of how like for instance with um with uh modern warfare three right finding out that that was dlc that probably got well that got spun into a uh into a full game and then got made in a very short amount of time it's like well when people find that out you know that's gonna contribute in some sense to their perspective on it in this case negatively um so like there's a an artist named i'm sorry no you go ahead there's an artist named mandrian uh who is somewhat famous because he makes these uh color blocks with like black lines in between it you've probably seen them throughout your life they're you know somewhat famous obviously uh and part of the thing about them is that he makes these all very very perfect lines even though he didn't you know ostensibly use uh tape or anything like that and you can't see the paint brush marks of the strokes in the paint right so you get very close to them and you go wow you can't tell that this wasn't printed even though it was made you know 1920s or something like that um that doesn't i think matter necessarily to somebody who is just looking at it today on on you know a print or something like that they're either enjoying it or they're not and and i think that's maybe a good analog for how very little that kind of stuff mattered well it's really fucking hard to solve a lot of this ultimately um i've already seen someone say like no matter how much you'd spend on a thing it doesn't give it intrinsic value as though anybody believes that is necessarily true because no i'm just thinking just i just had a thought for a while like intrinsic what does that even necessarily mean what can it mean and what would a bunch of people interpret that you mean would you use it um the the one that's on screen right now this is evidence to be there's like many people's feelings are being hurt and many people's fundamental identities in relation to the fundamental beliefs are being shaken i think that also explains how angry people in chat are i was like try not to uh fall into that trap all right everybody we're chill we're just having a chill out we're just just calm down seen a lot of people caps lock in a lot of people using lyre like before establishing what their point is like you got to calm down just having a chat i knew as soon as i saw it i told you as soon as i saw what this title was i knew i was gonna make people mad today oh you can't not make people mad on this one but i find it that's yeah what i'm fascinated by i suppose is uh a bit of the human nature going on here like um see an aspen gold's quote is just just like that's awkwardly cut at the beginning to the point where i can't even start you know understanding what he's saying and then he says something that i'm like no way he meant the crazier thing and then i find out obviously he doesn't mean the crazier thing and then of course everyone is like it's it's we're getting a bit of telephone happening where somewhat the previous tweet said he said that artists don't matter like what just in general like if you become an artist he's not matterings like he talks about him like i don't fucking matter jeez i disagree i don't think so um and maybe it's because i have the benefit of having seen him talk more about his perspective so maybe you'll change your mind maybe what i've seen it seems right now why it's super dismissive and yeah i'm just lost yeah yeah to be fair you should be you should be lost because this this is the experience of watching someone get like all kinds of shit said about them it feels like i've been dropped into the middle of a conversation that's been gone for a while how have so many people missed the fact that asman saying artists opinions don't matter is in a business sense the average consumer will not care about artists views on a game they enjoy i don't see this you know what meaning that artists opinions don't matter in general um you know people did get mad when martin scorsese an artist expressed his opinion on the nature of marvel movies yeah in both directions they did care and now whether or not it had an actual like business impact well maybe it did i don't know because like marvel movies have started to fail now though i mean obviously there's a variety of explanations for that but i mean that would be an example of well an artist opinion i mean it did matter everybody was talking about it for ages and it may well have had an impact um and i think that uh this is so very complicated because artist opinions don't matter in a business sense like so you're saying that like any any old artist opinion about the state of the art in terms of its production or quality doesn't really matter to how much it sells it's like but it does though even if in a small way it totally would i mean it's a huge way because it's their opinion and their taste that creates the thing that people buy i mean it's it's like necessary yeah they're all kinds of like like i mean just fundamental recommendations for all of us on on youtube to people it's why certain things are seen or understood right and so at this point i'm just curious where the line is drawn between artist opinions don't matter in a business sense compared to that is what that so if someone said like all the matters is the people who's consuming its opinion it's like okay so opinion can potentially be influenced by what they hear from other people and they could be an artist they could be the one that made it yeah exactly this is such a stupid thing though because i don't think that's what has been gold was even saying right like he was saying that once the product is finished the finished product the only thing that matters to to its ability to sell is whether people want to buy it well is not i think a controversial opinion a big everybody else is saying oh but artists let's say a big gut shot to this too is the several times we've had evidence of fundamental big creators who've made a thing getting swayed by either individuals or then eventually public opinion of their creation so for example the recent one with uh james summerton right like he nuked his entire experience on the internet because one person's channel claimed and with proof that that he was creating his artwork or his expression in an unethical way and then everyone found out and then he ran away because he was like holy fuck you've you've discovered my my immorality and to an extent then you have um artists that will switch up as they go along like with their work because of different people's individual opinions spreading out more so about the thing whether or not the thing itself is good or fun and and that's the thing i broadly agree that most people just consume and i don't even want to i'm not even trying to frame that as a negative right now that would be for a different conversation but the nature of more pressing concerns in their life but the uh when you know certain things about so for example um someone tate took a lot of meaning from a james summerton video and then someone says you know he didn't work very hard on that he actually wrote that in like a half hour that might make you think he's more impressive like holy shit you did that that quickly but then when you find i was like well no he copied it from someone in half an hour he's like oh so now all my appreciation for him as an artist through the the work itself isn't it belongs to someone else not him and i actually think that starts to hit on the fundamental issue for a lot of people with ai art like uh they want they want a source to appreciate for their new found you know meaning whatever and it's like it doesn't belong to any individual especially when you talk about the idea of it being paired with uh talent and hard work and years and years and years of practice and training i'm i'm gonna like throw it right out into the weeds i don't necessarily think that just because you know uh you know that james summerton for example copied that that you can't still get value out of it oh absolutely as an as an audience right like i even knowing that the stuff that thieves have yeah they it's stolen but yeah like i said they have a value to them yeah the big change wouldn't be that they no longer like the video they might not like the video but like they may not they may self i'm meaning it but the now it won't be james summerton that's responsible for that it'll be the person you stole it from they will rather attribute to them that doesn't necessarily have to change how you feel about what you got from it right like if if i am a huge fan of an author and then it turns out that uh you know we find out 10 years after i've read every book they wrote that um they stole all of it from someone else i don't think that that necessarily changes the value that i got out of it right like i would have read the words from any author no i don't necessarily disagree with that and obviously that's going to be different for everybody i'd say this is exactly how i imagined entitled consumers would view the ai stuff because to them it's all about if they get their fun little art fix no thanks for the many people behind the media they depend on we are a means to an end you're a shitty person if you feel this way okay but but like you're working as an artist right like you're getting paid to make commercial art at the same time i did oh like sort of i this is i think this is sort of poorly worded but i think the idea at the core of it i agree with uh there needs to be a i think people need to remember that the content that they consume often for free or for virtually free has to come from somewhere people have to work on it it has to be made it has to take a a level of talent and skill and oftentimes passion and a lot of people take that for granted they don't think about all the things that go into making the stuff that they consume without a second thought we don't want to foster a world where people devalue the talents that people hone and train and learn to do especially if that stuff is stuff that you can't do and i think a lot of us will be because we do tend to want people to know where the thing they love comes from we want that in information ourselves sometimes right like if we if we enjoy a particular piece of artwork and all of them have the same signature i'm like who even is this person because the or you realize like seven of your favorite films are all from the same director and you didn't even notice that because you were too young at first and to like care about it or something and and there's like a sense of oh wow that that you get to appreciate that person's talent sort of thing but the reality is most people i think uh rye's kind of measured this recently like the um most people with most things in life aren't going through understanding everything about where it came from or how it works or who made it it does serve a function is this same like someone go to the supermarket and go wow isn't it crazy that i can get basically any food that i could ever want at like my convenience and then store it in a refrigerator to consume at my convenience you're not often thinking about about this you need to have some perspective of how good you have it to be able to do that um yeah it just comes to the top and go wow plumbing that's pretty cool yeah just remember how good your life is i've had that thought every once in a while here in the yeah but it's like remember every day right pretty much all of us we we shit in purified water oh yeah like that's how insanely good our lives are the stuff that people would kill for back in the day we literally use it to shit in and flush away into the sewer i have two thought experiments for the chat right because i think this will help them kind of determine some of this stuff um first what if the Mona Lisa is in fact a forgery right there's there's a lot of questions about whether or not it was stolen and and uh the one that is currently in the Louvre is a forgery and how would that affect the sort of effect of the Mona Lisa and does it right is seeing the Mona Lisa knowing that that is in fact not Da Vinci's original but a forgery does that change the effect of the model and then i'll throw another one out which is what about the Star Trek replicator and food right if the Star Trek replicator is able to exist in our current world and we can create any food and it tastes like whatever and you can have whatever does that devalue the value of that i think those are are two good uh sort of beginning um thought exercises for this very con yeah in regards to the first one um yeah it would i wouldn't go see it if it was a forgery um because if i was going there would probably to be for the historical element of you know seeing Da Vinci himself's works so if it was a forgery then it's like it's nice painting but i kind of came here for that historical you know element um and as for the the value of food stuff i mean obviously the value does in one in one sense it doesn't change and in one sense it's immensely devalued it doesn't change in the sense of like i still need like it's still precious in the sense that i need to eat to live but also it's so easy to get that thing i need it's basically just like oxygen at this point like yeah oxygen is precious but it's everywhere so like it's both precious and not precious at the same time you know yeah it's i don't have an answer for these right like these aren't something it's very much just this is a beginning level thinking about this kind of stuff sure because i would argue personally that knowing that it is a forgery um would change it but we'll never know right we'll never know if that is a forgery i don't think that the effect of if i knew myself personally i'm the only person in the world was like yeah i know that forgery i don't think that would change the effect that the monalisa has had on them i don't think it would yeah but i guess like what rye said it would for him so sure no no 100 i understand i think it would for me too right i just don't have an answer that's a definitive answer for either well so well i don't go ahead yeah no no no go for it you speak less than i do so you go well now if look right it's in my mind now okay um i can't remember yeah i go so i was going to say as a third hypothetical if if we found out the lord of the rings was actually written by a complicated ai in the year 3033 and it was sent back in time and dropped on tokin's desk and he decided decided to own that it was him that wrote it what does that do feel perception of lord the rings and i'd be like i don't think it changes much of anything about how much meaning i get out of the story however it does but change my perception of tokin yes and i think that's that's a super cool concept right there to play around with right a lot of people don't sort of inspect their own thoughts on these uh to the depth that i think you should because this is not a surface level discussion unfortunately well i would say on this one you gotta you gotta go deep on this one yeah this one is really starting to sort of speak to an address pretty fundamental yes questions about uh about humanity you know yeah what is human for all the people that just said that's a ridiculous hypothetical why are you even here yeah i don't think you might not have the mental capacity to engage with really this should be called every frame of hypothetical because we love hypotheticals they're great and they're super helpful and useful for figuring out what you actually believe yeah um if what i was going to do any fact where there was no hypotheticals then i mean i would probably i don't think i could recognize what that is without hypotheticals um what i was going to say is that i think um i i think we really we really value our capacity to be creative as people which i think makes a lot of sense because i think it's it's it's something that you could point to was a very clear thing that seems to distinguish us from basically every other living thing on this planet as our capacity for creativity and so this starts to uh you know this this topic starts to kind of challenge that in ways that are um difficult and so i think that's the reason why it's like yeah you gotta you gotta go deep on this one and sort of start to figure out what you fundamentally believe about the nature of like human expression and everything and this is a discussion that's gone for a thousand years well and this as far as i'm concerned is only the beginning this is gonna this is gonna go on for a long time now because technology is that far along it's been going on for a long time right since the what is it the uh the print machine came out right whoa it's not being written by people like there are there's been concepts about this forever and ever and what is the value of the human soul and how much you know value does an artist actually have back in the 1700s there there's a lot of discussion about this happened for hundreds of years i don't think we're going to come to an answer anytime soon oh i mean i don't i don't expect that everybody's gonna the everybody in the world is going to reach a consensus like yeah we figured out the human condition guys we got it we know that we figured it out in different ways the conversation's been going on i mean pretty much since we first emerged you know yes we should do a thing where we should do a thing where every artist in the world just doesn't post for like a year and see how cooked the entire industry gets since apparently the difference isn't substantial that's a that's a fascinating sort of thought experiment isn't it would be cool as a no news films games i wonder if everybody would be more inclined creatively after that experience of not having it provided you know oh man how many people would come out and become artists right like you'd create a whole new generation of artists that were operating in the i want to see this and it doesn't exist right the same reason why i started creating youtube videos i want to make this thing you'd see all of that it it would create a whole new cottage industry of the same industry again i'm gonna look in john walker moment here someone in chat just said like you should try putting like potential years your life into a project just to have a pretentious neck beard tell you you don't matter it's like i could do you one better than that i've spent like five or six years on my career and i have people telling me i should be killed so i think i can talk about that yeah sure at least you matter enough to be killed yay the video game industry as a whole is so cooked with how brain dead stupid consumers so jesus christ well this doesn't just you know this this could just be true anyway i was about to say not many stupid consumers are jesus christ but then i was like oh yeah like because i was just listening to it and i was like what what i have to perceive a different own so this this is good all this is a guest spot we got uh it's a gundams point of view which fair warning he's not uh i saw some people in chat say apparently he's had conflict with azan gold in the past so don't expect this to be kind is all i'm gonna say i consider substantial and i do not consider the different i adore his uh his little one punch man v2 but thing it's so cute substantial do you guys no right no is he dunking on him if it was me you remember when dunke watched us on efep and pretended to be a falling asleep yes it's the best content is he dunking is he dunking azan gold that's just the the the he's he's staring and he's getting progressively more angry he's uh okay all right you can kind of see it there that pause can you see that i can see it here for just a second though i was like oh he's doing a donkey i forgot about that made with ai i'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence it doesn't matter nobody really cares the lead developer has been very positive and like not a great standard things are fine if they're fun probably not yeah that's what i was getting at without without context the line like that is weird like i don't care as long as it's fun it's like oh it's pretty bad it's gonna be a lot of fun it was all right there's a lot of scenarios where that just wouldn't be the case like you'd be enjoying a thing but as soon as you you know i think if everybody were forced to kill the animals they eat in the world that we would have a dramatic decrease of it wouldn't wouldn't be completely there'd be plenty of people who'd be fine with it plenty of people who don't even have an ethical issue with it whatsoever but i think there's so many people that couldn't bring themselves to do it that it would then curb a lot of meat eaters as a result yeah especially if you start doing like friendly or animals like a cow right imagine looking into a cow's eye and then bolting it in the brain that would change a lot of people yeah a lot of people just wouldn't be able to do it and so the it would it would change the amount of meat eaters in general um and that that is like so what is that evidence of it's like i'm not exactly sure but i imagine it's to do with the proximity to the creation of the thing that you're enjoying i guess positive about ai in the past and made an ai game we're gonna wait so is it mole is a vegan that's disappointing you're not vegan i mean that that is disappointing scum but yeah you're not a vegan how can i be this high energy of our a vegan that's a big here come on yeah i art imposter that's an ai artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games we're gonna play this this week yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of ai rather than what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know i guess general uh twitter population which is that you know ai is bad and it takes jobs well capacity for ai investment we have to make tough choices and so for some teams that means removing layers this is an argument we haven't really covered much yet it might come up more just the the introduction of ai kills other jobs the corporate speak removing layers to simplify execution and drive philosophy you're just you're gonna have bots write your shit it's like okay it's just fire people that's what it means but in less uh in you don't have to pay robots different words but um energizing our future opportunities yeah we've not really gone over that the obvious like the fight in that one is the jobs are always crunched i think morial he was talking about that a bit earlier but that's not really the focus of what we're talking about to simplify execution and drive velocity so tyler of the last few years higher interest rates the efficiency drive that was the cover for laughs or the reason however you want to look at it ai and the sentiment and that was uh that's in Gundam's stuff okay yeah i was he's going out in there in his video right yeah the news from artists artists opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion look at his eyes any of the edits you see are all Gundams okay like they're not mine the people that are buying products like i love these little guys right they're great yeah i'm so happy wojak's off funny i love those songs that wojak's are just like rage comics his second arrival second coming i guess like just because you do it doesn't buy it nobody cares like it's it's not sounds like this this it feels like the person says this must not have never made anything you know no i don't i don't buy that i think that the clip is shit i think the uh this it's obviously clunky as fuck it just made to sound like he thinks that a lot of this don't matter which is obviously not his take i mean if he's made a big old response video that'll be like a more enlightening that'll be a place to look at to see what he thinks when he can present it you know coherently and at length and i haven't heard anything yet right like i'm taking it off him all are here that he does in fact not mean that he's gonna he's going to make his position clear yeah because obviously well because he didn't it's something that destiny has said many others that they don't they don't have like 10 minute conversations with the assumption that they're going to be clipped out with every single 30 seconds that pass yeah yeah i'm sure you could take a lot of the things that i've said in this dream and make me to be either an ai advocate or somebody who despises it either way probably it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad marvel is oh come on bro okay get him get him out of here get him out of here the dude who literally looks like a pedophile and lives like one is going to take a shit on martin scorsese not on my watch just to be clear um yeah we we've we've been historically very against it however the the key information as far as i'm considered is i would love to hear more from him because the vagueness of it's not cinema actually i think just hurts the whole conversation well but it's really awkward it wasn't vague it was a whole article that he wrote well you're talking about the many different weird quotes about where he talked about like franchise or whatever in some other words that we would just that i guess that's what i'm saying is it's like the article wasn't like that it was still confusing and bizarre well this is this is again a part of the telephone game it sounds like now that asman gold is poised against scorsese about whether or not marvel is any good it's like no this is we're missing loads of layers of like what's happened in here because like you know the those two don't even they're not fighting at all and then the quotes from scorsese aren't even the things that associate with how everyone thinks marvel's falling apart like i don't even think he would say publicly that the marvels is a terrible film he probably says not cinema though which is probably i don't think it's fair to say scorsese is calling these movies shit i think he's essentially calling them theme park rides i wish he would call them shit i think that's a better argument than saying they're not cinema well they are now but i don't think they're i mean there's some there's a lot of good marvel movies actually i mean but that's kind of the problem is what he just doesn't want all of cinema to devolve into nothing but marvel movies which i can totally understand sure but he said they're not cinema yeah which i which yeah yeah they are not yeah i see what you mean yeah yeah right they're films you know they are just saying that they're not good right for that that would be way more based if he said that they were they were crap they're not even films they're not even movies you can't even see them the artist opinion doesn't matter says the person who's never created art we live in a day to age we're no well no media or films are art yeah but the problem is that we that's the conversation also needs to be evolved as guys making youtube videos right yeah it involves creativity it does well this is where i mean there's just spice everywhere and anger and fury and it's like all right you know there's a lot of stuff here there's someone who spent their entire life living in a cave like a bogland plague warlord warcraft has amassed enough following to where people think he has good ideas well and uh as we're gonna bring this up at one point but it's just like people always reference my shitty looking room whatever they disagree with me it is like yeah well i i guess yeah it even says that's just to be expected that's that's what people do i guess you're playing your fucking room can't you it's it's totally unrelated but it's no it has nothing to do with the room is dirty again it's not common right yes i think so um only if you use that in place of an argument if you do an argument and then call him a nasty bogland who lives in filth oh yeah i mean yeah i mean he knows he knows what he's doing right i mean it's obviously for laughs to the well because Gundam's pretty fucking offended to the argument but no nutrition he's offended by the the sentiment as he believes as when gold means it which it would be curious to hear them talk um be interested to see what happened bro like but i was up late last night so here we are his clarification and i was reading some of the posts about myself you're fucking dragular is in the background it goes away soon though oh obviously and uh some people are fucking pissed oh we've we fucking got partially taken do you remember like the stream gets paused when you play music for just too long yeah like i feel like i've made people more mad today than i have and probably like a month i am yeah yeah we'll be fine one controversy away from a villain arc which by the way is is said as a joke but is actually true with how things just work on the internet if you get in enough controversy in a row you'll just be seen as satan like uh you need to stretch them out one pig you you'll be right yeah every once in a while the artist comment yeah yeah like i didn't even think i was a big deal right i mean i didn't i thought everybody knew that i did i thought everybody knew that what i was saying was true apparently not guys of course nobody likes for people to tell them that they're wrong but this this doesn't fucking matter it's a fucking tweet who cares chill out it everything's fucking fine like i i made a i just a good attitude by the way just uh a lot of people need to better understand and this probably should be taught at this point what uh what it means well even when you have because he's having this reaction when he's got thousands tens of thousands up to millions of people watching him getting like you know roasted and he's like doesn't matter it's fine if more people had that perspective i feel like we'd be better people will be better off stronger as a result because yeah probably yeah like the perception that you know millions of people are just telling you you're worthless can do a lot to your brain it's about how you conceptualize it i suppose i said this on a public platform not his dipshit did cut it a little bit out of context but that's what people do expect me to draw a moral line i have to perceive a difference that i consider substantial and i do not consider the difference substantial i was talking about the difference between procedural generation and uh ai generation like generative ai now i feel like they both functionally do the same thing and i don't see there being a large moral difference between the two things uh the ai generation vicious procedural generation which is interesting to bring up about i don't know the technical difference between them it's a good it's a it's like yeah it's an interesting kind i've never thought about that not once that's a good it's a good thought it's something to just consider because it could all be on a you know a scale well um it's probably something that's worth talking about in terms of it's not like ai art is brand new if you start to think about like so for instance water simulation bagger fall use procedural generation for its world oh well i the example i was thinking about is like simulation in video games and um and and movie right so like if you have water simulation it's not like it that's guided by a computer it's curated and guided and obviously the software was created by a person and it's curated by a person but it's not like a person is individually animating each of those waves or like the reactions to like if a you know a player character oh animators were individually animating frame by frame every bit of sullies uh fur that would have been guided by a computer um and so that's like that's computer generated uh curated by a person driven by software created by a person well this actually reminds me of um it's gonna annoy me chat you'll know who's the guy who made well freaking might know who's the guy who made a stf movie tom's um he made a video semi recently on plagiarism uh it's a really cool video it's called tom's god's guide to plagiarism um he has a scale in here and i i don't know if he has it in a way that's easily readable but it's um it's about the how things it's like 10 slots on the plagiarism scale and he actually sort of implies that they actually turn out to be a circle uh you know you start with the original thing and then you the lowest version of it is the fact that you would have seen or heard of it and then later on in your life you do a thing that's kind of got a piece of it in there maybe and then it moves on to uh you you copy it kind of but you didn't even know where it had come from that you you'd taken a piece out of the thing and then he and he goes on until he gets all the way back around to literally copying the thing and reselling it as your own thing which he said like that kind of loops you back around to the original creation um but the he like draws a line at one point where we at one point crossover from ethical to unethical and it's really hard to exactly explain where and how it happens and i feel the same thing is happening with uh computer assisted like autistic works where exactly is the line yeah and uh that's going to be talked about for a long time i imagine and i also talked about it in the context of people copying so like for example like you saw like the uh the parallels between like the pokemon and the dragon quest and you know pokemon and digimon like i don't view there to be like a large moral difference between an artist using other art as inspiration or to basically create something that's another version of what the original artist made i don't view that as a tremendously morally different thing versus generative ai creating a uh an aggregate of art by using a million pictures yeah so this is another like fundamental position that a lot of people opt for which is that what is the difference between a computer that collects a billion pictures and a person who's seen a billion things in their lives and they both generate an image um and and then there's not to translate right well it's uh it's really complicated i think that it's totally fine for someone to say i'm not sure about this like uh because there's a lot to think about i'd like him to drill down a bit more on here because he throws that word tremendously in there and it's just like okay so you don't think that there's a tremendous difference but is there some difference or are you actually saying there's no difference like what exactly are you saying yeah yeah i don't feel like difference right like it's the difference between whether you're saying there's no difference or there's a great difference that is where we're all gonna end up on the spectrum um well again i think this is another one that starts to drill into some pretty fundamental you know fundamental questions about i guess how you perceive like human consciousness because i i imagine the argument you know the argument one way would be well there's a difference between an ai algorithm that is i like pulling directly from images that exist compared to you look at it goes through your brain and then translates to whatever you're doing on you know piece of paper on a computer emotional state what is my personal history of things what's my my mood and what are the things that has you know influenced me to get here and and i remember the people that i've talked to and the things that they might like and yep it seems like uh i mean not to be like like obviously it's a more human process but um i feel i don't know enough about the technicality of how the the ai does it on like a coding level but i but if it's just an element of these are all of these images therefore the pixels will be here and that's all that goes into it and is like well i feel like we've really lost the soul of what inspiration is but yeah well that's right you're using words like soul right it's yeah definitely um it's a like quagmire of a discussion are you suggesting that rags is appealing to something that can't even be nailed down so we can't even all you're against it is that what you're saying i mean i'm i'm not i'm not using soul in a in a literal sense but uh more like a humanity and human process sort of sense um i i suspect that that's the essence of his position that people don't like is that he doesn't see a difference between a person looking at other people's art getting inspiration and creating something new and an ai algorithm doing the same thing like looking at other people's art and and spitting out something that's like a mix of everything like he just equivocates both of them well no question for rags though if with that lord the rings example then you would have thought lord rings has a lot of soul in it but if it turned out there was zero in the sense that a robot made it would like what does that mean for your um point of view i don't know i guess i'd probably feel pretty deflated uh but i'm not sure like i would value it like i could i would value it a whole lot less but i don't know exactly like knowing that all of the work and stuff just to be clear with the example of uh the example was it was a movie that was made in a different time and then it was time traveled back and given to Tolkien the book yeah oh then i guess then i guess it would shift to my appreciations for and that's all that would change oh sure but the you were saying like you know there's no soul in a lot of work that's created by a robot whatever and it's like well if there's a work that you do believe soul is in and then someone reveals it's like actually that was a robot that made it uh be in this case being a i like you know procedural generation or whatever this this is the thing on the human side of it the idea of there being a spark something divine right that an ai could not possibly replicate and so therefore you cannot just equivocate the ai process of you know amalgamating stuff and spitting out something as opposed to a human doing it you know why i guess that's inspiration right it could be a fundamental disagreement that's kind of like impossible to yeah bridge the gap on depending on what you believe about whether or not there's something like you know someone can argue like i'm holding on to human generation of content because i just believe that is one of the best signifiers for creating worthwhile meaningful art even if a machine could trick me even if a human can create soulless things i don't care i'm just i'm just saying that it's a good thing to hang on to like someone could say that i'd be like i guess i understand i just and i guess also for clarification like if we had advanced like androids that were like decker replicants or because decker was a replicant and or like data from why would you even do that that's gonna be what i have what do you mean i was just talking about data and i was talking about it just for clarification i don't know what you're talking about so what i was taught uh but like those like those really complex like androids that i would consider people you know that would be different from like just just uh just a robot algorithm that just rearranges pixels based off of learning from images right i think you get if it's uh it's not necessarily that it's not non-human but i don't think we're at the you know so are you arguing that it requires some level of i guess sapience in our like personhood i feel because i would say that an a is right if we're talking about like a like a replicant right it is a robot it's a machine that is you know not thinking of things necessarily right a replicant is replicants are people are they i would say i would i mean i specifically used to example of like to cut through i assume right the reason rax chose them was he assumed everyone is on board with considering replicants as people you can choose whatever fiction you want i assume i still have a synthetic example right but what i mean is that what is the difference in that case right between a fake brain that is coming up with it and a robot machine server that's coming up i think that uh i think that a synthetic person would essentially i think that part of what would make them a person would be the ability to have you know memories and experiences and emotional states and things that would probably be something i guess you could create um a a brain-like device where it's a it's like it's an entity that doesn't have emotions or any of these things where it but here's a thing right you remember an x marketer how would you know whether or not they're having those authentic experience oh well i guess you don't need to we can move past the movie but how do you know like let's say you were talking or a robot that was acting a lot like a person how would you ever know if they were having the authentic experience of any of the things that they said to you or if they were presenting that to you to convince you that there were a person yes that's a distinction there or is that a distinction without a difference um i'm not sure how i would know i have to think about it i'd have to maybe learn more about how they were made and how they respond to things and what they do but i'm not sure i just want to know what people are saying like right now reference soba it's like well soma takes the position of um you already agree that the creatures in there are mostly human but we're presented with the reality of knowing they are not human at least not in the sense of the body right like the the opening quote being them the reality is that which when you stop believing in it doesn't go away meaning that you believe you're human and the game is like you're not human though i did like but i am though okay it's interesting right because i've seen some products of like ai generated stuff where i'm just like you know it's amazing it's like oh it's almost like this thing is thinking but then you like skim over the source code and then it's just like oh okay it does basically boil down to a bunch of logic logic switches like if statements and for loops and while loops that are all nested within each other and it's just running through a process but then it's like well can you could you think of the human brain is the same way where it's all just electrical impulses and we're all basically doing the same thing where it's like if this condition is true and that condition is true i'm going to do this thing and that thing right yeah so now you're touching on that point you're gonna trigger the people to have a very much like humans are valuable for what they are they're unique this special or amazing that is the question is a human valuable right because like is it the wet wear people are nice to alexa too right people treat alexa like it's got some sort of emotions and they say please and thank you too um so just be being how we treat these things doesn't matter if it's a computer right and it's not a human being and you're saying that the the spark of creation requires a human beings quote soul right like and i know you didn't mean it in that way but then how can you say that that any robot could ever replicate that even if it was a very very good replication of it right at what point that that's the question right at what point does it become this is something only a human being by the way and that is valuable uh john just perfectly illustrating uh what's probably happened to asma gold because if someone clipped you was just saying is a human valuable that alone so we'd be like so john just hates people i guess all the shit that was just said before because there's even people in champion like what the fuck are humans valuable like if you don't listen to the come on give me something to conclusions i hate humans i'm like a super villain i feel like all that's happening all it's kind of it's like oh fuck how far do we have to like actually start going into like fundamental perceptions about you know what is our nature like what is the nature of our consciousness if you want to get to like a root of questions relating to ai yes um yeah yeah it it you know look right it's uh it's a it's a deep rabbit hole okay it's a yeah you start talking about like solipsism and stuff like that do you actually think solipsism is that how do you say it in your world that i guess that's how i mispronounce it for you you know what i i'm not gonna but anyway continue so um you're a weird ass it's a question of whether or not you know how do you prove other people are conscious how do you believe they're thinking and things like that am i real are you real that kind of stuff yeah you're getting right into the very depths of of you know philosophy how do we know stuff yeah that's the fundamental question of reality i think that's anyway like these are that different and i haven't read an argument that makes me believe that i'm wrong i'm open to reading one but i haven't found it yet original art versus inspirational art i don't care about that because i don't believe original art generally exists i think that almost all art is built off of other art and that doesn't so it's yeah so just let's just get rid of the word or well well i mean but the statement like all art is derivative it's like to some extent there's always going to be inspiration stepping on things that you've seen before and we still all agree that you should not be able to copy one-to-one someone else's thing and use it for your own benefit like that you're like no i can't do that hi hi i just you ever ever kind of for a second yeah i was saying that um we we we all seem to agree that uh you can't copy someone's thing one-for-one and present it to your own so everyone draws a line at least there nobody says like well come on everything's iterative it's like like i don't know about that yeah do you think that if you trace a piece of art and add a hat to it that it is well it's just a point is as someone said like no one's arguing for that it's like that's my point no one's arguing for that which means there is a line and uh i love a pal world which is all the original pokemon which is hats on with hats yes but i mean in terms of the like you know artists are inspired by artists who came before them and before them and so on and so forth there's a level of uh there's a level of you are going to be pulling from things that you've seen before and your own experiences which is you know that's what people would say is like the uniqueness right of any individual person is they're not only the things that they've seen before that they're interested in but paired with their perspective and their experiences and then it's like those combinations together right is what creates the new piece of work take away from it it builds on it it makes it more special it makes it better maybe you should say can better not does make a better i don't know maybe not better but sometimes it adds texture to it all art is derivative yes and i don't think that that's not a bad thing anyway so that's what i was talking about in the clip we'll keep going do you guys no right no and that's really what matters i don't think a lot of people do and the truth is that i don't think that society at large sees a large difference the reason why i don't think that people see a large difference is that i've never seen a large scale consumer shift to where consumers are purchasing something that is more inconvenient or more expensive because of the way that it's produced organic foods or yeah like literally is but yeah the first example i said earlier like organic foods are literally that thing well i'm sorry i will say rags he's going to address organic foods he's obviously been to a supermarket just because he lives like a goblin doesn't mean that goblins don't go to supermarket this person is never no he's a caveman he's this is madness hey we were all came from cavemen they're cool guys they worked real hard derivative of cavemen but uh he's gonna start responding to like people in chat and someone gonna bring up organic foods and it's interesting because a lot of people are presenting counters in chat that azan gold would not agree with he comes up with a different counter now some people do this i'm not arguing that nobody does this but the biggest companies in the world are oftentimes the most immoral ones and i think that there's a reason for that it's because people don't really care where their products come from now to be clear he's not saying that this is ethical he's saying that people don't care right no he's just making observations which is a people generalized statement that can be seen as agreeable if he was to concede sure there are people who still do it's just that generally people don't care and i think you do he does defend it this way and so would we that most people shouldn't have to care because of the amount of pressures they've got in other departments in their lives you know it's not like we're all angels worry about every single bad thing in the world all the time otherwise they couldn't do anything yeah you'd be a you would be incapable of functioning if your empathy for your close friends and family extended to every human on the planet you would just not be able to function well you know the glibs highlight in slavery is like there was a civil war thought about that was there not it's like well wait the proximity argument would come up again which i do think is important to consider that if if you if you went to a store and when you pick up the thing that you want to buy literally just a glass pane between you and the child mining the things needed for it i think people would would probably change their mind a bit uh yeah if you're seeing them being whipped and under yeah yeah yeah i think yeah like nobody really cares about amazon war and so that's why i think it is it is unwise to refer to it as nobody cares it's more complicated but that is that's that's english for you i think workers pissing in bottles you care about it but would you want to pay twice as much for amazon prime to fix it there's a few drama episodes about this that mean for you quite liked in the new season yeah that was one of the uh stronger episodes like i think the ending is amazon engulfs the universe and they say yeah but it's so convenient yeah that's the second way to summarize it no probably not and the same thing's true with phone batteries the same things the same thing is true with uh electronic car batteries the same thing is true with clothes and everybody just forgoes morality to participate in these things and i do not believe this is a you criticize society but yet you exist in society how interesting right that meme i don't stupid meme i think that might be one of my most hated memes in history yeah i love the counter memes for it they way better with the king covered in gold is like yet you participate king homer yeah i don't think take a hike boss and also i think that that's very valid that's an extremely valid thing to say if you want to hold other people to a standard you should expect other people to hold you to that standard that you are trying to hold them to why does everybody else have to carry your flag and so that's that's my point i suppose to an extent though that is normal behavior isn't it that if you have a set of values you would want other people to have them because you think they're the right ones but just like a you know you don't want to go too far but same most people do tend to try and share what they think is the right thing to do we wouldn't have political discussions that we wouldn't have you wouldn't be here well and i'm trying to i'm trying to meet him on his level of like you know people on twitter being like you should carry my flags like you're gonna be annoying but at the same time i think that's that's normal human behavior that's just being like yeah and so i don't think that consumers really care about this in a general sense are there consumers that care about this of course is there a market for them of course is it infinitesimally smaller than the market for consumers that just want to consume the cheapest best thing of course i don't actually know i'd have to check and see infinitesimally smaller is is pretty strong verbiage there twos it was made with ai i'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence it doesn't matter nobody really cares about this developer has been very positive about ai in the past and made an ai game we're gonna play this by the way i art imposter that was an ai artist draw a picture yeah so that that was like like one of the games we're going to play this this week yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of ai rather than yeah basically people accuse the uh the the ceo of the company that made pow world of using ai to make pow world because he liked ai so they basically just made up an accusation and are just running with it and uh i heard recently that the person who originally made the accusation has apologized then what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know i guess general twitter population which is that you know ai is bad and it takes jobs from well ai and the sentiment from artists this artist this is the part that's going to make people mad opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because matters is the opinion of the people that are buying the product yes like it doesn't like your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't like nobody cares like it's it's not it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad marvel is shut up old man i still find this so funny shut up old man like but um i mean if if you have to imagine though in the world where marvel isn't shat on by tarantino's gosezi fucking copula all the people that might have a who is still around who might have like a significant amount of people who respect them for their work it can't be preferable to have all of them saying your work is shit and you're destroying the industry there's no way there's just no way yeah if i was saying these movies are actually pretty great yo that like that would that would have no impact either or that marvel wouldn't like that when something else the thing about is the is it just as simple as like so let's say ten artists say i hate this thing we shouldn't have it and then as of gold it's like you don't matter compared to the millions of people buying it you go okay a hundred and he's like still no a thousand still no ten thousand okay yeah maybe okay and you'd be like so yeah there is just a fundamental unit's line it's probably just percentage base between the people consuming it and people not consuming it i guess which um i don't know it just it feels it feels a little bit um like i guess we're circling back around to he really was just stating what is reality in a sense because that's just like statistically the more people who care and make things matter the more it matters and you'd be like yeah i guess i have a problem with his statement that nobody has ever chosen the more you know expensive thing on a mass level right like oh yeah sure some people do but but not everybody does and he brings up clothing right um because fast fashion is like the second or third most polluting industry in the world and if you just bought slightly more expensive more ethical clothing then you know a lot of that would go away um but we have seen this actually and i was thinking about it while he was talking we've seen the the disappearance basically almost complete disappearance of the fur trade because we didn't like what they were doing there we've seen almost the complete disappearance of um animal testing for makeup and cosmetics that's almost completely gone now because we didn't like the idea of you know rabbits being horribly mutilated uh in order to find out whether lipstick is and a third one that you know we still this is almost universally reviled at this point is the ivory trade right we don't want elephants to be murdered uh even though we think that ivory is you know very very attractive and it's brought up the the cost of ivory to you know stratospheric prices um so these are examples back in like the what was it eighties in the american it was it's been a long time and yeah the ivory imports have been completely illegal so all the ivory that's in the country is all that there is what's open yes what about like charity just in general that's obviously indicative of people's desire to help that doesn't help themselves necessarily right i suppose you could argue it makes them feel better maybe um but just just taking action to try and make the world or other people a better based on how you feel ethically like that it should happen so if that is instilled in people somewhat fundamentally then surely it would still have some impact on their consumption as well because at least consumption is actually offering you something in return so maybe you'd feel more inclined to do it ethically because at least you're gaining something no matter what as well i just i wonder um we don't want to we don't want to get to the point of like losing faith in humanity you know oh yeah definitely don't want to go there um and also like when it comes to you know that a lot of this has is surrounded by discussion of like ai and stuff within games uh gamers are unfortunately quite retarded so not a great you know is it not a great example i think for the most part a lot of gamers are super normies when it comes to stuff like this games are often seen as very much like recreational disposable slash things you don't really worry about it doesn't have that kind of place in people's minds as a lot of other things do games aren't a serious thing you know yeah there there's still a lot of people forget that outside of mobile games the average gamer will buy two to three games a year right which if you are a quote gamer you would probably think that that's ridiculous but the the large majority of people are people who have a switch or they have a playstation and they buy the newest you know soccer or or football game and that's it shut up if people have a problem with like ai and algorithms and video games you need to decide where the line is drawn because algorithms are used for a lot of things including something as simple as inventory management you know sorting items in like your box or your bag or whatever by alphabet or whatever that's all determined by that scale thing i was talking about again and i do actually think that is what's happening all of these conversations everyone's having is about everyone's establishing lines and then everyone is pushing or pulling everyone else's lines including their own yeah i like watching the thorn movie it was cool you know what's funny if they revealed thorn of a thunder was done exclusively with ai we'd all be like oh yeah that's not explained that explains it so people really didn't like that clip and i want to say really quickly that i stand behind what i said 100 percent and i'm right and the emotional outbursts of man children on twitter over the next day or two will subside right we talked about this if he calls you a man child you have to say well look at your room dude well then at that point you're saying that everyone's a man child we're still gonna we're gonna live in everyone's a man child no one is it will prevail reason will wiggle its way in and people will see the truth of what i said and the best thing about it is that i can prove it and that's that that's that's the good thing about the truth is that i don't have to that's the good thing about the truth it's like yeah i guess so it's uh you'd hope you can prove it yeah sure the truth is pretty neat free and all that yes to uh bully people off like i can read arguments from people that disagree with me and i can prove them wrong these people can't prove me wrong they can post a picture of my room and say my room is dirty and so i'm sure you can do that but i'm still right yeah i almost want to say like uh him his room being dirty has nothing to do with these arguments still man you don't want a room like that don't have a room like that yeah right grow up fucking hell it's really disgusting well i don't know what what the problem like because you think it's not just a matter of aesthetic it's just like it's bad for you like you know clean your room right that's like a that's a meme yeah i mean jordan peterson says you gotta you know you gotta clean your room a clean room is a clean mind or something that's probably a quote i i don't i don't know he might have said that at some point yet but yeah you can say i'm a loser you can say i'm ugly you can say i fell off you can say anything no you look fine you look fine what thing that you want but that doesn't change the truth and that's the best thing about it is that it doesn't matter how mad you get it still doesn't matter it still doesn't change anything your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't buy it nobody cares that's right and i want to extrapolate this so almost all art has relatively no intrinsic value relatively no intrinsic value is a bizarre yeah i need a definition on every single word in that relatively no intrinsic value uh yeah that uh why intrinsic nothing has intrinsic value question mark what is intrinsic value this should be like every single word exactly i don't know what to do with that there's too much that needs to be defined but i presume he's about to explain what he means by this right sweet like if you're at a um uh if if you are stranded on an island would you rather have a cooler full of food or would you rather have a uh uh would you rather have the Mona Lisa so that does not help the initial statement doesn't help at all because there's no intrinsic value to survival so i don't even know why like if you close it's uh it's it's kind of interesting to think that you know good old maslow's hierarchy of needs right if you're at a position where you live in a house and you have food and you have water and you have all of your basic needs met at some point you might get to the place where yeah in a general day-to-day basis you are more invested in the art that you are that you watch or play or read then you are in any given meal that you eat that day well i have my my tap and i'm like do you want a bottle of water or do you want you know fucking the next mario game i'm like well mario i cover my tap over there and then on the desert island they're like you could have mario or you could have a bottle of water but yeah i mean yeah exactly because you were on a desert and a deserted island and it's like you don't have all of your basic needs met like you know food water uh shelter and yeah of course you want you want the water but once those needs start getting met and then it all starts to change how much it matters to you in terms of how much it occupies your mind how much you'd be willing to pay for it you know yeah then fundamental nostalgic value or personal value you know like my grandmother's watch i care about it a hell of a lot more than fringy does and i might even value it more than a bottle of water on that desert but he'd be like fuck that watch we need the bottle and i'm like maybe i don't know but yeah these are things that he's gonna he's gonna talk about a bit as well it's just that these are not fantastic opening statements i think he's figuring it out as he goes along and i think that that's what makes art special is the fact that it has value but the value is not intrinsic i don't you can't you can say the word again he must mean practical value or values yeah but that's not intrinsic but like yeah then again how much do you want to delve into how much art is like fundamental to our conceptions of existence or keeping a civilization sane yeah intrinsic is like inherent right it's part of the essence of something that you're describing yeah the way i'm interpreting what he's saying is that it's the value it has even if all humans are gone which at that point it's like well then it has no value because humans are like wait uh but in the same way that the food would have no value to humans in terms of sustaining us because we didn't exist either you know yeah yeah yeah yeah you don't like this you have to say what you mean when you say intrinsic and if that's why it applied it was being applied in that way then it's like well this is not very helpful because then everything has no intrinsic value i think he's about to compare it to a hammer and at that point it's like so he is he means like there's a practical thing we can a hammer can do things and make things happen but that a painting is just to be appreciated like mentally or something like this um okay well i guess let's hear let's say it first like a hammer has value you can use a hammer to accomplish a goal a uh you know a nail has value you can use a nail to hold something in place and so in general and and this isn't true all the time okay i'm not intrinsic value a hammer has intrinsic value is that what he's saying well so this is the problem like well what what if you don't need to hold anything i think we need to throw away and even if you yeah intrinsic is messing everything up i don't i don't think that's hoping i don't mean of course my response would be yeah well what good is a hammer if i'm floating in the middle of space for instance you know i'm floating in space but thank god i have this hammer exactly because it has intrinsic value well you know the funny thing is if you're flowing through space and you have no reason to believe you'll ever be found now you're done it's that's it it's got your book well you got the oxygen that well i was gonna go further it's like you'd rather probably have if god said i could send you a bottle of water a hammer or someone's painting you're like well the bottle of water you can't even drink it let's say is an empty no you know what i mean like he said hammer or nail or someone's painting you might be like i might just go with the paintings that might be more interesting i'm not sure well yeah because we want to talk about practical value if we want to talk about practical value of like it serves a goal an easy one to point to was and i played mario because i was feeling sad and i wanted to be happy so i played mario and that achieved the goal of making me happy yeah like there's there's no downplaying like the importance of achieving psychological goals with uh the things that you you interact with in use just as much as a more apparent practical goal of a hammer nailing in a nail to make you know a cupboard or something well so you're you're stranded on that island and you're thinking maybe i'm you know i'm gonna kill myself that's it i'm not gonna be saved but then you have mario there it's like you know what i'll play a bit of mario and then that that keeps you alive just long enough that a ship comes by the next day and it's like very yes let's go get him but you leave the menu screen on long enough and he just turns and looks at the you and goes never give up and you're like oh mario thank you so much for playing my game you're on you're on it you're last alive and uh yeah so just superchats saying he's conflating value with utility they mean different things so not only is that an issue one can with sort of extrapolation say that utility can you know how much utility is there and having a painting versus a hammer it's like well it depends yeah if it's a really good painting that could have like some massive utility compared to i don't feel like building anything you know yeah i got my hammer but i don't have anything i want to do with it so but i'm making a general statement that's not always true okay so just please please please hold hold your exceptions no we will allow you to continue but we will also highlight exceptions please please i know i know you have an exception that you want to put out there and try to pretend like you're smart i know i know you have an exception i do too but i'm talking about in the general sense okay art does not have a general sense of and that's that's not true it absolutely has a functional value if i'm trying to be as generous as possible what is the category we would have for you can't eat it well architecture has a functional value right if we want to go for a really basic example because yeah help help me out here right architecture it's it's like engineering but also with an emphasis on aesthetics right yes it is aesthetics that you make while you are also keeping in mind that it needs to that either serve some sort of a purpose and that it has to be practical because engineers and architects work together to make sure that the building actually you know serve some function either fulfilling aesthetic desire or also making sure that it is you know fulfills the you know necessity of being what a house is you know i gotta live here it's gotta have the space that's it does gotta be good shelter can't leak things of that nature and also how do we make it look good and feel good well you're like propaganda you know art with like art with a serious function that has like a very to the point where it's designed to help win wars or start yeah like um or like the gi joe you know like the the public service announcements you know like that's with a purpose with a purpose of like and and the thing is is that these are the examples that you would point to if you were going for the most plain and obvious nature of functionality but i mean the functionality of art that like teaches you some kind of lesson that is meaningful to you and makes you happy there's functionality there yeah yeah when sonic tells you don't let your uncle touch you in the no no place so that that's a very valuable thing for kids to know and it's important that sonic tells me that well what kind of art are they talking about right like the actual medium of the art because would you consider what you know efab is to be art or would you say what is painted right well i'm about just that as as and if we want to tie it back to you know economic functionality well the stuff you own has economic value it has a price that you can then sell it or exchange it to get money that you need for other things so in many dimensions of course art like has very clear functionality if it keeps you happy that is like yeah your mood is not happy that is a thing that has no value and when i was in search and rescue they said the first rule is that you have all of these needs all these things you have to do in survival and one of them is pma positive mental attitude gotta have a positive mental attitude and that's like a survival thing that they teach you how to stay alive gotta stay the idea that if you have a positive attitude that that can just fundamentally improve your chances of uh survival if you're depressed and want to die your survival chances don't look good that's a great point yeah if everything's about function like if if people are going to perform functions they need to be in a state of mind to not only do it but do it well i do you know how much do you want to boil how much do you want to boil down the decisions that everybody makes all the time down to the most clinical the what people would view as the most clinical um decision like brushing your teeth for instance versus um playing video games or watching a movie or going for a bike ride or hiking or going dancing like all of these things are ultimately in service of your mood it's like in in one way or another game only talking about this the ones and zeros instead of the aesthetic of the design of the things in the game and the characters and what they say and the themes of the game that would be like the difference mm-hmm a Picasso painting is not going to do anything you're gonna make me rich well we can this i'm actually going back to a fucking Blackadder episode where they want him to paint a picture that's going to do some achieve something in particular with the men like for morale or for whatever else convince it i was just like there's so many functions that art can serve uh that are even beyond just the sense of it can make you feel good it's like i'm not even just talking about that i'm talking about things that have a grand fucking repercussions based on an artwork we you know there's artworks can get you killed if you make them so it's it's it's weird to say that like the this is a weird thing to say is all about but black gatter goes forth like a war painting or yeah yeah yeah well have value to some people and that value is subjective and the fact that the value is subjective proves my point sometimes yes even the strictly practical things a hammer is probably going to have more value to a carpenter than it is to somebody who doesn't intend to build anything ever in their life and would rather be talking about practicality than it is not subjective that broccoli is good that it objectively broccoli is good for you if we're if we're operating on a on the practicality scale right that's not you can have value that isn't purely subjective like you can think it's good for you and it also can be necessary for your survival you know food nutrients these things are not subjective and i can give you another example of people that are making art that nobody cares about now you can scroll but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value that means nobody cares about it yeah it means less people consider it valuable down on this tweet and most of the people that are being very angry are people that are making art that nobody cares about how does he piss people off i don't know i couldn't imagine yeah right or you can go over to twitch and you can go down to uh let's go down to uh i don't know world of warcraft and let's scroll all the way down and you're gonna find people that have one two zero viewers and they're streaming the same as everybody else's but nobody cares about them and it doesn't really matter that they're streaming wow doesn't really matter to who this is what i mean yeah if yeah this is what i mean but the controversial versus non-controversial statements it's all about the packaging and i feel like he's starting to do this kind of on purpose because if the non-controversial thing is these guys don't have viewers which means people aren't viewing them like well yeah no one cares about that statement but if you say they're not doing anything of value you feel like whoa because i mean again the example what if there's a guy who's just got a sketchbook and he's drawing images is like i'm not intending to show this to anybody i'm just doing it for me because it makes me feel good it's like well that's pretty fucking worthless isn't it it's like what all right let's just chill out okay well and i feel like this explains why he's gonna piss people off is like why are you saying it like this um i assume people in chat can relate to this but have you ever come across a channel where they have basically like 10 views maybe a hundred and you watch them you're like this guy's gonna be huge and it's because you recognize like what they're making is gonna be really fucking valued by a lot of people because well it is valued by you in that instance it's valued by the guy who's creating it already in that instance you believe that the artwork has gone beyond any sense of like does it serve a particular purpose as opposed to you you recognize the quality of it in and of itself and so it you know you you expect it to explode in and of itself sort of thing this this is confusing to like it's like all these streamers who i feel kind of bad look at a streaming graveyards they're just like so many people trying to fucking make this work you uh and who knows maybe one or fewer of them there are they're gonna be huge one day i guess it's interesting right because i mean everybody starts from zero you know yeah maybe one of these guys gonna make it big eventually and if and if they listen to the lesson of like well it has no value and they'll like oh fuck it then all right i give up it's like oh wow shit i mean now you've made it for sure that nobody's ever gonna you know see what you could have made in the future all i'm saying is that if all he's trying to say is these people's streams don't generate like a market value because they don't have anyone watching or whatever it's like so that's just a neutral it's not even like why would you think even to say it is so it's so normal as a statement but if you fray a bit as they don't have value or they don't have uh they don't matter you know yeah silly i mean you could be a really talented streamer and i think it does take skill to be able to not only do an activity or play a game but also hold an audience's attention at the same time but and if someone is like really good at that and they're just looking at their view metrics and it's like oh nobody's watching i guess i'll just give up then and then like never make anything after that you've just robbed yourself of the potential to grow your audience at all it's like you're definitely not going to get anywhere if you don't stream at all and so if asma gold is saying if you have zero views you don't matter like somebody could take that and be like oh i guess i'll just give up then like it's not a cool message the reason why it's uh relying on these kind of like external metrics as a marker of your success can be really fickle compared to if you've got like internal metrics that are more based on i i guess what you would define as the quality of the thing that you're making that as long as you're improving your succeeding not necessarily that you're gaining x number of subscribers per day or viewers per day because that's so out of your control in a lot of ways obviously there's no control and influence right it's not like the things that you do have no impact on on your external results but yeah yeah value to this stream they're not going to make any money uh now maybe they will in in the future but whenever they do in the future the reason for that will be because people see value in them that's because the art you even made a point there my guy well this is what i mean though if he's just saying they'll be more popular when they're more popular who's going i mean yeah total logically yes yeah which is why yeah that point is on the air sold is empowered by the people that consume their content and it doesn't matter if it's a picture it doesn't matter if it's a video a stream or anything or a hammer or a hammer where people only is only has value for as long as people see value in it these things have value because other people say they do art is fundamentally subjective that's i think that if you think it's art it's art that's where it comes from i i fundamentally so can art not be so i guess i don't think art can be not subjective at all well you just said if you think it's odd it's odd which is another really weird statement which is also not true that's just like well yeah because if you pointed a trend say that's odd it's like um it's nature odd yeah if you point at the 11th thunder and say that's odd yeah yeah it's like it's not even a mind so unless he's appealing to a set such as making up your own like language or something but there's only a few things that might fit the deaf fit that if you say it's a thing it's the thing like anything like a designation right like the word you know you you know what i mean like there are very few things that you can't designate a thing without it being a designation because it's like tautologically what the word means you know but in a meaningful sense no just because you say something's the thing doesn't mean it's that thing yeah there are people and some people think that everything is odd so reason why that's true is the same essence of the reason why i'm saying what i'm saying so whenever i say an artist's opinion doesn't matter on their art it's because whenever an artist says this is worth $50 to me and somebody else says no it's not the artist can still try to charge $50 for it but nobody has to buy it it's a monetary value i feel i feel like you even had to alter his own point there so in the scenario where the artist says it's worth 50 and then everyone else goes i am paying 50 fuck you he was like there and then he thought to himself well wait i guess the artist wouldn't have to sell it though would they they could still be like it's it's 50 you pay 50 or you don't get it and he was like okay but nobody has to pay for it that way and it's like yeah but it matters doesn't it that artist's opinion on what that thing is worth what value it has yeah because if they didn't have an opinion on it then that person could have bought it but if they're saying no fuck you it's worth this price we just we just established that it was prevented from entering the market or rather it's it's opening to the market is now hampered by that artist's opinion of its value so really this is not a good example no i i genuinely think he even kind of saw that for a second there i was like oh fuck right yeah because the artist can and will it'll change based on the artist's mattering opinion which again um it's brought up later by another account but uh flappy birds being an example of a game that was taken down because the creator's opinion was changed about the nature of the art and what it was doing like to the world and like that's another that's just that then that matters off the market like that's that's a huge impact and also just yeah the artist's opinion that determines what the thing is that's being bought or sold like of course it matters if the artist had a different opinion and a different outlook on everything then it would just be a totally different thing because that value is decided by the customer that's the way it works is whenever you go to market with a product you have to meet the customer's demand and it doesn't matter about so is it what does flappy bird have to do with the nature of the world everything everything is the answer what you think the world should be it doesn't matter about how you view ethics in art it doesn't matter about how you think trade should be it doesn't hold on i mean you can't you can't say that it's customers who determine the value of these things and then say it doesn't matter what the customer thinks it's like which one yeah well yeah it seems to be going for like individual doesn't matter but group does like what do you think a group is well and it's usually comes for a group is usually to you know comprise of individuals but oftentimes it's spread from other people telling other people telling other people telling you know i mean like he's almost decrying the idea of shouting out to the world that you have an issue with x because it's done this way and then he's like there's no point doesn't matter your opinion doesn't matter it's like but if you have traction yeah or if you're a particularly good speaker and you can present your idea in a way that's very compelling a lot of people like hey bomb a guy's perspective on someone's art as an individual killed their channel i doves was known for this he was channel killer if people didn't care about plagiarism and you know theft of that nature then the channel would still be up because the guy wouldn't feel bad about it because no one would feel bad about it so there's no issue whatsoever so none of that wouldn't happen what is voting if not trying to manifest in some way the way that you think the world ought to be and how it ought to be run yes does it matter about whether you're a capitalist these things do matter though that's the problem even if you don't think they matter the most which is fine i could probably agree with that they do matter stir not none of these things matter the only thing fundamentally that matters is if what you are doing is perceived to have value in the eyes of the public no what i mean the public what the fuck are you talking about what if i do it for me and it makes me happy well that what seems like he is very squally on the idea of like economic value rather than i guess the more uh yeah this is what kind of you know too many things get conflated because it's like uh what he wanted to say was that no matter what you have to say about your artwork rags its market value won't be determined by that but it's like but that's not even true if rags went crazy and said a bunch of wacky things like the i think what didn't this happen in succession they were trying to do a deal and one of the guys started tweeting crazy shit and they were like stop it's tanking on numbers remember that yeah the uh yeah the scars card guy yeah like the you know take any like wholesome happy artist who releases paintings every once a while or anything and then starts tweeting the n-word or something over and over again people are like oh my god um and so that individual will then have a huge effect on the market you know yeah exactly and then if someone said that's not an opinion that's just being crazy it's like okay yeah just they express an opinion on you know where i'm going with this like they can express any kinds of opinions that'll get the uh destroy the market value and not the artist a famous artist who just decides one day you know what i hate my art and it's terrible and no one should ever have it yeah and they just decide to destroy all their art so that dramatically increases the value of all their pieces that are in you know private collections and are in museums yeah like well that that artist's opinion literally insanely and drastically changed the value of their art and its price like i can't believe someone said like that's not an opinion on the value of the art it's like you can't you can't conceive of a controversial opinion on your own artwork that you could release to damage its market value you can't think of one i mean i know that i could i know that i could right like i could destroy my entire channel in 10 seconds now if i wanted to excuse me in the eyes of the person you're selling it to and the truth of that but that's an individual that's a customer not the general plurality of customers there are plenty of things that the amorphous blob of consumers might in a descriptive way price a thing at but i don't give a shit you know it's like yeah like your art art's actually a really good example for this there are plenty of artists who say yeah if you want to get art from me it'll cost ten thousand dollars and i'll be just like i don't give a shit i'll give you i'll give you a hundred for it is proven every single day it's proven every single day whenever somebody buys a video makes a video game and nobody buys it it's proven whenever riot shuts down riot forge because nobody bought the games do you want to know why a lot of those people got fired it's because of you it's because of you and it's because of me and the reason why is because we didn't buy and support those games because we didn't care about them and because we didn't care about them they didn't make any money and they got fucking fired no it's partially like a lot of it is not up to us a lot of it has to do with you know well what's the cost on it you know what do they have to operate at in order to be successful it's like yeah people have to buy sure but how much that happens and how much support it takes also in this gonna also be determined by you know the operating costs and what it took to make it you gotta be careful with thinking like this because it can take you to everything that takes place in the world that you have the potential to do anything to stop is now your fault you'll be like what if you just didn't even know it existed what if you didn't even know what if you couldn't know you could have taken steps to find yeah yeah well this right me like that this is going a little too far on this one yeah and that's the way the world works again now I understand that there's a lot of people that are angry because I'm saying this because don't shoot the messenger yeah I think I think he's just he's not saying it very well that's all I'm not angry at him he's he's chilling he's fine he's exploring this very complicated topic like lots of people do or do that's fine but the reality is that I'm still not wrong and this reality will be proven every single second of every day until the end of time it's I don't think that I'm proven every second too is that weird matters that he keeps using it says it's destroying every argument he makes on what I said but maybe if I maybe if I said it in a different way more people would have it would have resonated with more people but in another way I'm saying it and now a lot of people are mad and more people are addressing it so I don't think that it's really like a I'm right and you know they're wrong or whatever but I think about this but you said you know what you base this all off I'm right you do you absolutely think that you want to ask him what's the difference between something that matters and something that doesn't matter what's the thing that makes the the mattering thing well I'm sure you agree with us that we need a framing we need a thing that it matters too we remember we highlighted this one of his statements where he said matters and we were like we need the thing that you're talking about matters to what do I fundamentally do I frame you needed intention sorry go ahead well this is this is what we were talking about this is why everyone's getting mad at him on twitter because a lot of people have now taken him to mean the artists don't matter full stop which is like like he's devaluing a human being if they become an artist which is obviously taken way too far but like even the notion of that for a lot of people on twitter is so infuriating they like it's almost why they believe that he said it like this piece of shit hate him he said the thing that I fucking hate fundamentally what I do is I communicate to people and so I think about you know is my mode of communication actually becoming counterproductive I don't think so but I do think I personally think that something gets kind of productive well one of the things he just said was that had he phrased it in a much more agreeable way maybe it wouldn't have had as much reach and had as many people thinking about it which is an interesting point of view probably did rip off things from nintendo directly I do think so I'm gonna keep playing the game that doesn't affect my opinion of the game but I do think that they I think that they didn't like so a genuine answer for me if I'm playing a game I'm really enjoying that I find out they just and I'm not saying this about powell wield and saying the theoretical if I played a game where they'd ripped every single asset from other games I genuinely would have to think for a bit I'd be like hmm maybe I shouldn't play the game like this this it does feel a bit awkward because this is like if it's stolen work I don't know yeah I don't yeah I don't yeah well I would definitely feel pretty about it now if it took if it yeah it'd be like it would be one thing if it took assets from all kinds of different games and combined them into a very interesting and strange way or maybe it was trying to make some sort of like a meta point potentially almost like like a Stanley parable style of this and that and being a gamer and yeah I think it would function on a big old scale wouldn't it like yeah yeah I think so I agree with you and I also think there's a strong possibility that a game like that would get review bombed you know like if it was just like so obviously Pokemon like none of the designs were altered I think a lot of people would have had that day before what was that game wasn't that the day before the day before yeah yeah oh this this countless examples right like some of the worst and then some of the chiller ones there's these examples of games that are really good that have like things that are clearly taken from something else but how ethical the acquiring of those assets are is complicated sometimes sure how much you add to it and so on um I agree right this is why we don't like Hassan because right we create a video why we don't like Hassan okay but we create a video and then there is nothing which is your favorite reason well but there's there's this you know creation of a piece of property that we think is good and then you put it out there in the world and somebody watches it quietly while they get up and go to the bathroom right like there's nothing added to it so that that's the same sort of thing that I think you're talking about uh with regards to taking lots of influences and and mixing them together but I do tend to agree with you Mahler that if this game were a one-to-one stolen property thing right like you wouldn't necessarily uh want to keep playing that I would definitely think about it even if it yeah that's the ethics of it I think there's a line for everybody probably on that one too like if if the game would just a complete rip and they changed the name alone and people really enjoyed it and then they were informed like you you should be playing the original one it's right over there sort of thing I wonder if they're is it is the effort of turning that off and going to the odd the other one enough to stop them I don't know but like I said I would definitely think about it my line is definitely gonna be a bit more robust and complicated more so than do I have fun or not yes especially like the in the in the case of pal world there is a layer of modification to the designs it might be a slim one but it is there and I think that's enough for most people to go like okay yeah that's fine like there's one animal in pal world that's like a fire fox and it's just like vulpics and charmander basically it's like what if we just mixed design elements from these two and made a new thing and people are just like yeah you know yeah it's just like I can see the elements from both but you sort of unify them into one thing I don't think Nintendo holds any legal ground over like a a fox creature that has fire powers so like I think this is fine and no yeah it's all silly ones like the sheep one was really funny but it was like they've copied pokemon it's like they've drawn from a sheep like that's silly yeah if you're as yeah especially ones that are based on animals is like two different companies are taking strong inspiration from a real life thing so they're probably going to look decently similar because they're both taking inspiration from the real animal what a lot of them are arguing uh which is really dangerous by the way is that Nintendo and specifically pokemon owns the aesthetic right they own the art aesthetic and that is a very dangerous position because does the simpsons own characters that are yellow right exactly and that is the argument that a lot of them need to devolve to I think the comparison for simpsons would be more so you can tell when someone's drawn something you're like oh that looks like simpsons style like simpsons has a style there is a simpsons matte braining style yeah just like south park has a style which is the uh like the characters are like made of of uh piece of paper cut into square circles and that they animate in a specific way yes so in pal world specifically the animals are definitely pokemon aesthetic they are in that style for sure there's no question and it is purpose we would probably be calling them neopet style if that had become more popular than pokemon right or you know uh any of these really you you could say digimon you you could say uh even what is it macami tense which you know created the concept of capturing uh and fighting animals together I think humans create that well okay yeah as long as you know as long as their designs are you know distinct and different from our own you know it's like well it's all right fair enough yeah it's like I it's too close and maybe i'm wrong maybe i'm wrong but like what's it see so it's very music saying it's just aesthetic is disingenuous there are pals that are just straight up pokemon it's like disingenuous i've not even played the game i'm talking about the theory of all of it i don't know that person's also wrong like just i've seen some that are like definitely close but they're still different i can still be like oh one is this one i want is that one and i air on the side of a letting people take strong inspiration other than saying no your your inspiration means that nintendo can sue you i'll he's probably good to air on the side of you know that yeah but we also just literally addressed that whole thing by saying the simpsons so well there's just scaling and degrees and you definitely don't want to be in a position where we crushed down so hard that it actually like kills amazing new projects right yeah well i mean just a month ago we're all celebrating uh steamboat willy and then today oh well the power of taking inspiration is disgusting i think part of that is how much people hate disney right now i'm not the lawyer i don't need to be like you know a hundred percent you know fucking right about this or this is an illegal argument i'm just saying like this is my vibe check as a person who makes youtube videos sure okay okay like this is a vibe check so anyway uh if you're sure there's a capitalist direction not wrong i think many including myself would argue that uh we have a good moral obligation to look after the ones making said products even in the capitalist thing is wrong if you're streaming viewing this from a capitalist viewpoint you're not wrong i think many including myself would argue that we have a moral obligation to look after well so i think he's gonna line up with us mostly on this the it isn't the system it's going to be the actors within the system and the we do still try to care like the let the more extreme parts of any system to prevent it from you know overflowing in any particular direction if we never care about the artist the art stops and nobody wins and uh i respond back to this i say if many such yourself care about the moral obligation why is it the biggest companies are often the most immoral wait it and my point is that we should be moral often the most immoral we should be moral oh yeah but big companies are often not moral i don't i don't even see how those two things are related well so they he's saying that it can't be that many care if we end up with companies that are supported by the many that are immoral i guess he's commenting on the fact that like an apple or an amazon or whatever have you are fundamentally immoral with what's a lot of what they do but the the dollars come in from quote-unquote the many in this case i don't know how that's yeah but even then i don't know how that's a counter to the person saying we should you know act morally that's the countering the many concept uh which i mean the thing is many could mean a lot of people rather than the significant selection of people like as in like the vast majority of people whatever um this is the result from a self-resurrential worldview that most people have rather than an outcome of capitalism the whole concept of a corporation though is to be amoral right like that's why they exist is to remove the morality and make a profit yeah corporations don't have a moral component intrinsically right i think wouldn't it be better to sign that way even even if we actually knew just truthfully from wizard man that um no matter what uh morality everyone hears about the the evil corporation will win it's like okay but that doesn't mean we should just not we should just stop right that we should probably continue pushing for good morals anyway come on here right i don't think i was not going to die but i'm gonna try and push that time back as far as i can yes because it's not built into the structure of a corporation right a corporation is by its design amoral because it is existing exclusively to create profit and deliver that profit to its stakeholders and that is exclusively what it does there is no morality around it the the the job of us as a consumer uh um when we're purchasing these things and we don't like the the ethics of it is to not purchase from them or to force change in some way right like those are political systems and stuff whatever it is right like whether through boycotts or whether through just shaming the corporation to the point where it becomes a lack of profitability or to start that corporation and force ethics and morality to be a part of the the corporate structure itself but outside of that the corporations are are designed to be amor i feel like if we can change things like the eradication of the institution of slavery then we can do all sorts of things and having a doomer mindset of oh what was us everything's terrible nothing's gonna change everyone's amoral and you're all bad is like i don't like that that's not very helpful no and they're not right like the provably people are not bad um i mean they can be bad but like as a general you'd like to think that generally humans are pretty neat i think that people are good because we're not all murdering each other right like we've created these sort of structures of government and structure of law and we generally abide by it because we want to right like if you yeah if you didn't want to if all people looked at the rule of law and we were like fuck that shit well then it wouldn't exist people have a mutual interest in living in a society that's stable they don't want to have to constantly look over their shoulder and worry about whether they're gonna get killed or i'll have other shit stolen like we need a social fabric right and then we accept the sort of governmental thuggery that comes down and puts this threat of violence above us right like we accept that we got uh in chai see a quote from rags someone's got just be positive and we'll magically overcome it that's right that's just what i said that is just what you say very true you did it you nailed it the good times oftentimes people that think that because they get 6 000 likes or 12 000 likes or 40 000 likes on twitter then somehow this means that this is what most people think it's not most of the thing what how are you i think that i mean that that isolation is fair yeah but it's just because you got a lot of engagement on twitter doesn't mean that it reflects what most people think uh yeah sure yeah yeah though here in this case i doubt you will get i think that the idea of you should be moral you know you should try to be a good consumer essentially is something that most people would disagree with sorry so that again he was talking about he was talking about the people shitting on him on twitter uh yeah yes it's it's great to look at what i yeah all right yeah moving on yeah i agree with that yes that sentiment but sentiment is never better than data and the data says that it's not true of games like pow world hitting two million concurrent players six thousand people liking a tweet doesn't really matter and if we didn't have this data then we'd be having a debate using that weird but we don't need to have a debate because the data proves the truth and it will prove it over and over and over again obviously it's not the case but just like it did with sweatshots it's like it did with lithium batteries and just like it's doing right now with ai and in the future it will be something that we can't even imagine that we'll be doing the same thing and so i think it's going to be interesting because we capitalism money is greater than moral one moment this person believe anything it's like i think that it just died frame changed for me oh yes okay maybe refresh why look i couldn't even exit for a moment they wouldn't let me um oh okay give me a sec i'll boot her back up well what triggered me was him using that matters weird again uh yeah uh a tweet is like many things that we change our mind on it doesn't happen all at once it's uh we get nudged in that direction over time and oftentimes it's you know people on social media giving their opinions and reasoning and that nudges us towards a different opinion and then one day it's like oh yeah well uh you know now it's but but you know i think differently the thing is it's all about scale six six thousand likes can absolutely change something uh six thousand likes did in fact very recently like a few days ago and chug a conroy's career right like this does happen six thousand likes can absolutely do that right this is why when he says doesn't matter i'm just like i need you to make more sense because you're not making sense to me yeah you're gonna have to say something you're gonna have to tell me what you mean when you say that word because i don't even know if you know what you mean or if you're just referring to this aetheris general concept that you can't quite grab on to also give me a second just uh i don't know what's going on my i think chrome is is having a bit of a memory leak or something uh maybe someone had mentioned watch together uh sometimes doesn't play nice with chrome every once in a while i haven't had a problem but i've heard it from some people that that that they have to use like an incognito tab or microsoft edge yeah during this stream i actually switched over to edge because it was killing my computer i mean as the days go back it's into more and more controversy the amount that chrome is being like uh seen as a shitty the browser mm-hmm tomorrow but oh well uh i mean it's fine for now so we'll just go back to being normal 12 000 likes or 40 000 likes on twitter then somehow this means that this is what most people think it's not i think that it's it's great to look at sentiment but sentiment is never better than data and the bizarre way to phrase that um yeah sometimes i joke because i've been playing d d and d recently and sometimes you make the joke of it's it's only it's only one of your hit points that actually matters it's the the last one the last arrest yeah it which is like yeah technically that's true you know generally but obviously there's going to be a huge difference between characters and video games and whatnot that have one hit point versus you know 50 versus you know a thousand right it's the same argument as the last vote does is the only vote that matters yeah it's like you only have to get one over the other guy you know but but but obviously you know the things that people say in the discourse that happens it affects uh what people do in a more tangible sense it affects what they buy it affects how they vote it affects all this stuff which is obvious and everyone should know that in simplifying it to saying that none of this you know matters is like i don't know insanely simplistic and i don't even know what what was the word is is it myopic is that with a my of is that the word lacking imagination foresight or intellectual insight yeah myopic so i don't know like it if like i my political because i used to be like a hardcore catholic and i'm an atheist now and that happened over a course of many debates and many arguments and anything like if something that fundamental i guess to my life can change then so can people spending habits and they often do there are products i won't buy there are companies i won't buy from and i think everyone's pretty much like that for the most part i think i it's not a big deal especially because we have so many options that i'll be like yeah i won't buy from this company but i'll buy from this you know adjacent company to get the a near identical or similar product but that i think is you know either more ethical or less unethical you know i think this is something that probably most people in chat do um so it's it's strange coming from him you think he'd be really clued into this what i'm starting to know is is he says doesn't matter we respond with well there are many such cases of it mattering and then many people in chat are being like yeah but still generally doesn't matter it's like if he had said it generally doesn't matter that'd be different and i don't even yeah that would be better for him but i don't even know if like do the way does the way people think i would still say the way people think generally doesn't matter because that's what determines the things that they tangibly do even i mean the beliefs that people have determines their actions and their behaviors you can't you go i'm sorry i'm just gonna say in the in the context of what we're talking about the idea that it is popular to be you know whatever does not make it ethical it's it's not part of the equation at all yeah which is the thing that we're all like yeah we know yeah yeah that's right yeah i yes it's so funny everyone everyone's saying that is that is what he means and you're overlooking it it's like you're so generous but like you gotta you gotta let him have his actual opinion you can't change it yeah he said many times this is the thing that we keep getting hung up on because he keeps saying it wrong but why don't we just take him for what he's saying which is he thinks that it doesn't matter generally in the grand scheme of the discussion which again not true on so many different aspects of how different products enter and exit the market that's just obvious at the same time it's not a great position to take because it's discouraging people from sharing like their own disdain toward a product or why they would stand away from it ethically because well it doesn't matter when it's like but it does we know what he means exactly because he pulled up twitch and he went and he showed these streamers don't matter he made it very clear what he thinks yeah and i disagree with him like it's i i also disagree one person's opinion could destroy a product it's uh it could happen at any moment absolutely one single person is often all it takes and there could be a person with no followers in that nuts and the data says that it's not true of games like pow world hitting two million concurrent what's his problem with pow world sorry oh he's just saying that it doesn't matter what people say about pow world because everyone loves it anyway yeah it's popular so it's good well which is funny because what if in a week's time it went to zero fucking players like it's traceable that we only have a million examples of that happening what i'm saying like so many products have died as a result of controversies i don't know why we're saying that this is just it's like it doesn't work it's like well no it can work we know it can work yeah i don't think he has i don't think he has a problem with pow world except no maybe he might think that some of the designs the creators might get in trouble for by nintendo but i don't even think he thinks of that as a problem um six thousand people liking a tweet doesn't really matter and if we didn't have this data then we might be having a debate am i not but we don't need to have a debate because the data proves the truth and it will prove it over and over and over this kind of reminds me people say like you can't say tlj was bad because he was so hyper successful or whatever and it's just like well it could have been more successful what if powell could have been double the numbers is that even now without the people saying whatever they've said about it how do you know like these are stats as though it's all encompassing i mean like you don't have the stats on everything you know is that like data is describing what's real it's not making things real well and even when we're talking about data right like the the extrapolation of what the data means can be biased throughout the whole process that's part of the thing right we can take the same data set and determine many different things out of it yeah like for example eight million copies sold is better than six k up votes it's like why would you you've extrapolated the data in the most retarded for like way ever what does that even mean like over again just like it did with sweatshops just like it did with lithium batteries and just like it's doing right now with ai and in the future it will be something that we can't even imagine that will be doing the same thing and so why is it because somebody's off the most memorial because go back a hundred years think of the insane changes there are problems now therefore it doesn't matter what is what was there there's probably always going to be some sort of a uh an ethical issue we haven't solved we we haven't created the utopia yet what are we what are we getting out here oh i just had a really good example upton sinclair in the jungle right if not for that uh people reading this oh this is a sinclair in the jungle yes exactly yeah that's right right people not reading that and going i don't like the way that they are making mind for the audience who doesn't know what that is why don't you tell them what upton sinclair in the jungle is so upton sinclair was a journalist who wrote a book called the jungle which is about the meat packing industry and in that book he writes about all of the various kind of gross ways that they they treat meat and this was back in like 1930s or something and it was things like you know workers are getting their hands chopped off and that is ending up in your hamburgers and the animals are being treated really badly and they're covered in feces and all that kind of stuff and that single book managed to completely change the way that everybody looked at food safety right because hey if there's literal shit ending up in my food i don't like that if there's people ending up in my food i don't like that so the entire industry whether people or poop people and and well i mean wait no wait because if i meet a people that encourages a bucket of killing people to feed me i would go hang on i don't eat poop either though well no one ever knew what if it was all secret and no one ever knew that you ate them which one would you eat if you had to would you rather eat people or poop but it's prions that scare me right like i don't want to end up with it scares me if if it's about eating your brain melts well it doesn't eat poop as well yeah i don't think either of them are good yeah i know that that's the the question is which one would you rather eat oh fuck man because i mean i'm eating the people yeah if i had to choose between eating a person or you know eating people eating also i you can recognize how many people are just not listening to the point you're making by how many have told you the book lied it's like so whether the book tells truth or tells lies the point was of how much effect it had yes correct doesn't matter what's in the book it doesn't matter at all the point is it's a single book that completely changed the entire industry for a hundred years right it created a lot of i i don't want to say it's the food and drug administration but um someone just concluded lies equal good yes yes the meat do we have a lot of tourists in chat today possibly yes because of i haven't gone my jeez you're gonna you guys are gonna have to engage your brain you're gonna kick it into at least second gear for this for this discussion i've never had chat turn against me before that's well we knew it would happen we're talking about something that's very very hot button all right and that's okay well we've done it before they're all fucking morons right and remember when moriarty says all he means not all of you not all of you of course no there's one exceptions are built into the world he says you're already it's he doesn't mean all of you yeah when he says all of you are fucking stupid he's clearly about the ones that he thinks are stupid yeah yes what else is chat for if not to jump to conclusions about the discussion yay capitalism money is greater than morals this person believes that bad systems and abuse was invented by capitalism this is not true no so let me no rags you mean yes that's not what that's not what they said is it what what's the quit they say capitalism they're not i don't think they're saying that capitalism invented immorality and stuff so when he says artists don't matter and they say he's correct strictly from a capitalist viewpoint implying that the problem is that a capitalist viewpoint doesn't value the individual or the artist it's just money causing these problems and he's gonna argue that that's not true it's the individuals in the system that that create the problems by how they make use of the system which i quite like as a point of view i've always agreed with it um yeah i don't i don't get how the person was saying that capitalism invented those things i just said how because they're saying that it's it's it's a common like the problem we're dealing with here is all a commentary on where uh capitalism sends us with a mind that which loads of people think like the capitalism leads you down the road of not valuing individuals or workers or whatever have you it's all the dollar the almighty dollar or as homo says the all it allah go ahead and give you an example so before capitalism we had monarchies and we had things like that wait are we just gonna have to talk about a whole bunch of the political like he's i mean we could just like economic system he's gonna argue that he thinks capitalism is currently the best economic system it's not that controversial many people think this happen if i guess it's funny the picture of the king who made the king look fat well then they'd just be dead and that's the way that it works there's never been there's never been a better system for people to express themselves not a not a western capitalist argument this is the great what do you mean what do you think i mean i what he described wasn't an economic system he made the king you got killed that's that that's not like i agree capitalism's the best we got is great but it's talking about artistic expression under different economic systems and if monarchy which isn't even an economic system right that's more of a ruling but he's just trying to say that through the ages that we are now in the best position for artists to express themselves i agree yes greatest mode of expression that we've ever had in the history of humanity does that mean that we can't do better no it doesn't but i am not going to look at any other system that's been tried in the past and say that let's go back to that absolutely not it's actually true this is just a a restatement of what was it i want to say it was winston tertul who said democracy is the the worst that we've ever had except for every other right it's the same kind of idea and right there are plenty of problems with a hypercapitalistic model plenty of issues i think we all experience them every single day um that there's no i don't understand why this comes into the equation at all though right because i think he's trying to counter the notion that capitalism has led to artists being trodden downtrodden somewhat but the thing is one could reply to what he's just said with i agree it is the best it's still got so many problems we need to solve or something like that you know unfortunately the nuance which we've talked about on this 50 fucking times people just do not understand nuance it's not uh they would say that about you especially in the case like the medium of twitter right like nuance just doesn't exist there well i mean when you're limited to 240 characters hey not anymore for a lot of people anyway for those who pay right for our x premium right then you can type out more what is the is there a limit for the people who pay you're just going for it i presume that there has to be a limit yeah i presume you can't post like an entire novel on twitter do you remember i've seen some long posts though it wasn't there a time where it was like they doubled the length and ever went crazy it was like oh my god twitter because it was like 140 it was 140 was it or 120 i think it was 140 i i thought it got doubled to 280 that's what i thought yeah 140 to 280 sorry i thought i thought it was secondly you were like wait a minute half of 280 is a 140 yeah god dammit um but the but yeah i mean when you can only when it was like 140 and then to 280 that's still like fuck all that's barely anything to uh to uh to like basically delve into whatever thing you're trying to say with it's like twitter encourages snark that's what you get rewarded on twitter if the response being a snark is possible rather than as informed as possible yes yeah i mean dunking on people right like the whole concept of right which we see here of the uh the quote retweet which i abuse plenty don't don't worry but uh it sort of encourages the idea of just dunking on a yeah a small snippet that you can barely see without context mind you totally pointy it should just be called dunk instead of x dunker does anybody does anybody actually hold x do people do that because i still keep calling on twitter it's twitter forever i i see people saying x and i'm like what are you doing i see it crop up as uh that on like articles and stuff that i think they professionally speaking need to refer to it as x but any cat but it's always followed by formally known as twitter formerly known as twitter yeah it's always twitter just elon's retardation was like we're gonna really wonder if credible branding that we got it's a dictionary and he got rid of it is it just a matter of time do you think before eventually everybody well yeah because it will probably reach a point where people don't remember that it was called twitter yeah i don't know does anybody call i guess facebook mentally or facebook is still facebook the company is matter i guess that's that's true that's sorry it's not quite the same um okay what about google and alphabet though nobody will people call the well no people when they refer to the company when they talk about it in like stocks and and they refer to it as alphabet ink people call google google i get what you mean that people colloquially call but isn't google google is like one of the companies that's organized come to alphabet right like alphabet is a conglomerate kind of like how um you know on your west like he changed his name to ye but people still like call them kind of both and it was but people say Kanye west to might be a closer one yeah or puff daddy well and how many people call it Warner Brothers discovery if it was like people generally just call it Warner Brothers yeah the discovery part but then again when people report on it again in like financial you know newspapers and stuff they'll call it Warner Brothers discovery no both of my examples were wrong twitter x is just that's just like a very unique one of you've just changed the name dramatically yeah wait so one inch i just said uh i wasn't sure about this but then my dad told me snickers used to be called marathons oh and and some marathon is a different thing marathons actually the mars version of it um so much you know why it's called snickers uh yeah why would it be called because actually because that was the name of the mars family's favorite horse oh that's cool i thought it was called the Mars bar because of Mars like Mars yeah marathon was a unique thing or the god the one that i saw as well that was an interesting one is the sears tower because isn't it called the willis tower now or am i ever i mixed them up wait which one in chicago right what's it called now i don't know damn it yeah it's willis tower right but it used to be called the sears tower yeah that's right um but do people still but but do people still call it the sears tower or do they has ever any change to calling it willis tower i only know it is the sears tower and i'm you know not old so yeah yeah because people are saying people still call it sears tower i mean which is hind's field right hind's field is now akrischer field i'm sure that's a similar thing that we're people who have grown up their whole lives calling it the hind's stadium or hind's field or whatever um or wriggly field if that were to change his name i imagine the same sort of thing with oh yeah wriggly field i think this thing wriggly field is a name that sticks well because that happens with stadiums as well i think uh oh fun i got it was cold yeah stadiums often change then well it depends some stadiums keep their names forever and some of them change and then you just keep remembering the old the old one existed in newspaper during french monarchy even during louis the the six the 14th i'm sure that there are exceptions but do you really want to make the argument that inside of a monarchy people have more autonomy to be able to control their own wealth depends on who you talk to i guess they're awesome i mean they're awesome it could technically be possible i guess depends on the monarch but probably not no also where you are in that right like if you're the monarch yeah you absolutely have a lot of free if you're the monarch yeah you get a lot of freedom yeah you really think that the king and the people that were running france at the time were moral but i think that this person would probably be not advocating for also this monarchy this is serfdom this is truly going to places that we're not going to be again today we got plenty to talk about this dream we're not talking about whether or not the kings and queens were moral okay they were good people if you're if you're a monarchist in the chat oh boy good for you no louis the sun god was right okay he's right righteous i like the sun you think that they treated artists and people that were involved with them what's the guy in dark souls wait sorry what about the sun the praise the sun who's that that was louis the 14th in dark souls yeah never who was he though you mean like it's law or i know his name i can't remember his name yeah so it says solar oh right okay yeah solar yeah wow very original what hey what are you implying i'm implying that's really original and i like it it's totally from pokemon no is solar a pokemon yes what does he look like did like is he a goober is he a yellow bull is he a ladder a goober solar pokemon i hope i spelled it right images no these people were brutal animals the same as everybody else cards of solar yeah they i was i don't know solar sounds like a name i checked and it seems that i don't think there is one i mean if there was i would have just been like yeah that one i wouldn't be surprised it's like over a thousand now there's a solar rock there's a lot do you remember the do you remember the gold one that was the one thousandth what the hell oh you remember one thousand yeah let me get you guys a picture of this this is horseshit all right let me get i'm gonna show you more horseshit than the keys really i'm gonna show you a picture this isn't a meme this is actually the one thousandth pokemon very good wow that's incredibly dumb his name is gold dango gold dango that sounds like an australian you know what i got as an impression this is fucking the poochie like oh you remember poochies i remember poochie from itchy scratchy and poochie yeah that's what i was thinking too yeah poochie was like a like a late 90s toy i think it was like a little cartoon character that was created by itchy and scratchy studios voiced by homa simpson who went back to his home planet and died on the way there yeah it feels like they would say like this this character died on the way back to its own planet that it's no longer canon yep what i must go now if my planet needs me that just the it was just a cell moving off yep i have to go and it's now it's just static do you remember the gag it was um do you remember it was the uh it was the itchy and scratchy the one where where itchy uh finally dies where scratchy gets him and how Bart and lisa was just there eagerly anticipating it and it was really hyped up where like there was a bunch of dynamite strapped around his chest even stuck the dynamite at his eyelids and then pointed a giant rocket at him and they were eagerly awaiting this payoff they'd be waiting their entire lives to see scratchy get itchy and then the nerd unplugged the tv yeah and then trusty like oh they're never gonna let us show that again not in a million years the revolution if if that wasn't the case you're mistaken if you think capitalism didn't exist within a monarchy well at a certain point you can you get to the like what do you mean we can just we know we don't have to deal with all this do you mean the ownership of private property do you mean a free market what do you mean by capitalism i think you should define your idea more clearly and then we should i think you should literally you fucker oh my god oh my god you too oh you also need to identify oh my say it to himself right like somebody says money over morals uh this is the true uh this is true everywhere like no that's literally not true not true everywhere some people literally would rather do the right thing than necessarily just make money but like the concept of charity i'm not even talking about like organizations or anything just people doing charitable things isn't that an example of moral over money i mean volunteering when you choose to do an activity for free yeah i think as long as you're not you're not like you know taking the sort of ultra um undoing it for for tax purposes kind of thing but not everybody does things for money just because they live in a capitalist system yeah it means you can potentially if you want there's not as many like a couple people say like virtue say like god everyone needs to get some faith in humanity back up sometimes people do nice things they don't want people to know that they do those nice things there's good things that happen in the world i swear i promise there's people doing good things for for good reasons if you go to countries right now that aren't capitalistic like north korea do you think north korea is prioritizing morals it's such an insane thing to say i can't imagine yes it isn't insane thing this thing how are you gonna pick north korea they are they literally are prioritizing morals what do you mean kim jong-un wouldn't he wouldn't let you do anything that's immoral oh because it's the worst example and it is the example someone just said it a twisted way you could actually say yes to that question fold it is the like for example like china is capitalistic in a lot of ways now right so like can i really use china i don't think i can and also china exists within a global market which is never would have thought you'd end up here from bell will use a guy talking about yeah talking about china what an adventure also capitalistic so that's why i chose not to use china or a middle eastern country i used north korea for specific reason i'm not really in the business anymore of trying to change reality i'm i don't want to change the the world uh well i do in a way but i i think that in order to change the world you have to acknowledge what it is sure and i think that so many people have intellectualized reality they're not even a part of it anymore intellectualized reality i'm inclined to agree with them on that actually yeah i guess yeah i get what he means i think i got what he means people like intellectualized means building a false framework of what you understand the world to be i think it's like the idea that there are so many people who are really in their own head that they're not even like fully participating in the world in a bubble of people agreeing with them on so many different things and actions and claims and stuff that when they step out into any other place they're like baffled and they lose their minds like what the fuck is happening here and it's like you kind of built up all of your walls and uh yeah you've you've written yourself a version of earth that just doesn't even exist uh with values that don't agree with you and unfortunately it'll um it'll like cauterize them away from any kind of exposure to things they need to they need to see and understand well kind of like the point that he's making of grappling with the world as it is in order to move forward and solve problems rather than being like well it shouldn't be this way it's like well it is so now what now how do you move forward yeah okay so much they've they've there are so many levels of abstraction away from just the simple truths of reality that they don't even live in the same world that you do and that's a yeah this is a huge problem online everyone's living in different worlds uh while where people live in these parallel realities where they have fundamentally irreconcilable perceptions of the world and any given fact uh on a situation it's kind of fascinating it's the problem now i'm not talking about whether something is good or bad what i enjoy doing is being able to see what is and then be able to predict what will happen because of that and how things will go i i enjoy that i like listening to what is this soundtrack skyrim yeah okay yeah i like it yeah i like the rain it's nice and chill the best part of that game is the soundtrack i i that that's what i want to do just our people living in their own at little like those don't know we did a whole stream yesterday the regards Bethesda games it was yeah you should yeah yesterday was comprised of one activity which was if it should be there yeah we had remember the twist remember the twist my goodness the twist is incredible we got to the end unironically this is this will i mean molly you were saying this before we started that'll be like it's it's gonna rival the boogie stream for this year yeah it'll it'll rival all timers as well it'll be up there and it's in january so every it came out so early all of the other e-faps are gonna have to try really hard the year is uh august to august yeah early in the year in the middle of the e-fap year okay e-fap we're on the e-fap calendar i missed the twist what was it you don't want to be told the twist you can find uh links to it in discord or reddit maybe but um for now it's i've edited it ready to go so that the fucking internet break you know it's sealed but uh it's in a it was an 11 and a half hour thing so i gotta upload it as soon as we're done here i'll start uploading it it's gonna be a little late but it'll be up like coach ambers oh that's always the case right i don't think anybody thinks that pure capitalism is good and of course we don't think that that's why we have socialist systems like social security nobody thinks socialist systems like so look all right we're just let's get back to the let's get back to power well well wait is that i don't think that's controversial if you say it's a social program and if i'm not gonna yeah yeah that would be accurate he said a socialist system it's an interesting way to put it yeah this a lot of people do well a lot of people don't think about it in the first place so it's not really worth taking and taking that in the consideration the use of ai is not necessarily considering things people don't think about all right um well i think about things that not as though all the time you wonder not all who wonder are lost am i right no wonder are lost even if you believe that ai being trained by other tools is actually sorry by other pictures that you don't own is theft because there are plenty of people and i'll give you two different examples amirath and susu who do only fans content who have an ai bot that can generate nudes of them for people that try to talk to them our world is so cooked um what did we have what is okay there are only fans of bottles that have i didn't even know this that they have balls that generate nudes of them to be provided to the people who would think they're talking to them and are probably talking to either a bot or somebody who works for this is like jesus cyberpunk it's cyberpunk but it's not cool we don't have robots and like i can't have a machine gun in my liver so this is i can't be robocop i can't be adam jensen i just there's no neon or gold it's just it's just cringe it's all cringe beyond just the image creation i imagine those bots have like a chat component that's designed to interact with these people as if it's amaranth and then sort of process requests and it's like okay you want this image to talk to an actual just i hate to theorize but i'm assuming that's how it is like where do you want me and what things you want me to be holding and then the ai just fucking forms it all it's like uh it's so weird you were probably very close to to what it actually i didn't know this was happening and i feel like either i just why were the flying cars what does it do for a what does it do for a person but they like i'm interacting directly with her she said every dude's that their friend is like oh that's ai that's not her that's he knows do you think the person just goes fuck you it's real to me it's real to me they're all wrestling fans did she uh did she back like 58 million dollars in the last like few years from that yeah the she should be able to take her pants off whether not the stat that it was something like in four years she had made 57 million dollars yeah she's super wealthy off of it she's probably got several bots running you know man that's so weird yeah is that theft well no because they trained the bot with their own content so whenever you're saying ai and generative ai you're painting with such a wide brush that you're also including things that don't necessarily fall into that category i agree with this no it's an interesting hypothetical a lot of people say that it's stolen artwork without permission it's like so would then if we if all the sources were paid for all provided by a single artist that's using the ai themselves would that then solve the problem or not it's it's i guess uh because part of the conversation as well as the idea that nobody got the choice whether to opt in or opt out like that it's already like for some people it's already done right every single thing that they've ever made is now incorporated into these models and it's like well okay well then i guess yeah what but then again it once again draws back to the conversation of what what do we believe that fair use slash inspiration is versus theft and is that a line that needs to be redrawn now in response to this new technology yeah now you have you have artists now who are building measures to forcibly opt out like they call it poisoning their images basically yeah so like an ai system will misinterpret the data somehow i i don't know how it works exactly but it basically makes it so an ai will always incorrectly skew the image and creating something new like a filter that you put on top of the image well i think uh something that is a form of digital right management right yeah i guess sorry yeah by the sounds but and that's a way to walk down to the ai's or yeah so they won't they won't be able to see what it is because they're reading it you're right they're not using eyeballs so when you're looking at it optically uh you see this you know uh field but when you look at it it's just a church right and everything's a church so everything that they uh that the ai is pulling out of it is church yeah it's like putting a kaleidoscope on an ai if it had eyes basically i think it's like just to sort of skew their vision of what the original image is so they think it's a different thing that they're ultimately making yes uh yeah pretty interesting every single ai tool that's ever existed has been trained with things that are not that thing paying for fake nudes is wild wrong those model stole images how do you know how you don't know how the tech works i find it how did a little bit of music that this is the conversation that's being had with like this nice skyrim music this is sort of his this is his aesthetic i think i think for all the streams he has oblivion or skyrim or some Bethesda music going makes sense it's nice and chill and i also i'm mostly fine with the whole like whether or not he's got the exact facts correct it's more introducing the ideas and see what people think of them right like would it it goes from being is it okay that she's doing that too okay but would it be okay if that were the case because it's not too far from reality i can totally buy that there are people being fed ai images of nudes to keep them in a sense that they're having a direct and intimate conversation with a girl which i just i just feel bad and the funny thing is that's just a beginning it's all just a beginning we're gonna go way further than that they steal images you are wrong you are one thousand percent wrong one thousand percent wow that's like ten times more wrong than being completely wrong yeah how really wrong sure ain't going to my stream okay that's that's a good good attempt yeah i to be fair that's that's funny like i'll debate you come to my stream i i appreciate the hustle sure and that's the difference is my door is open where do you a coward so did not consent having your work being used by their algorithm and then being replaced by it i can can you explain to me what the difference is between that and another person who is a better artist than the original artist who is making art based off of that original artist art can you explain the difference to me because like i don't see so this is something that people have super chat about as well the the skill development element and i was thinking this is something that needs to be like workshopped i think as an analogy but if you had like a rock climber who's an expert and they're training someone up and then that person creates like a robot and infuses them with all of the data of all rock climbers and then climbs that rock better than any with his robot it would be like that's amazing that you've just created this crazy machine that does all these different things you're not a rock climber though yeah yeah and they'd be like well but i i've achieved this and it's like not quite it's a different and and i don't know if depending on who you talk to that would be offensive or not offensive because they might be completely fine with the idea of being considered something else right see it ai had to learn to remove watermarks and that's blatant theft and i oh yeah that that's interesting isn't it if if you train your ai to remove watermarks you're like and that's one of the one of the ai that we're talking about like uses it it does when they were promoting it or marketing it or showing it off or whatever it was a demo one of the things they said was and it'll remove watermarks and it feels like that is just kind of uh saying you know what you expect this to use for and in that case if you are marketing your product that's something that will remove a watermark in order to steal it right like that is a very clear um i don't know mission statement that i can take and say yeah i don't i don't appreciate that i want to also kind of like okay sure yeah sure um nobody cares though right that's not not a great response yeah people clearly do not enough people care i guess is what you would change that to to make any difference but i still don't think that that's i mean it only takes a few people to yeah i was gonna say like they can maintain the programs right so it doesn't even every person who does care hopes that they can make more people care by making more people aware of it right and that goes the same for every single value everyone has all over the earth really you hope to imagine i imagine the line is drawn at like 50% where like if you have more people complaining about it than people ingesting the content then all of a sudden it's a problem but not before that let's all be right back because really shitty moral framework though i don't know where he draws the line i just i figure that's like the place to draw it in lieu of him actually saying so but if that's what he's saying right like i it's only moral if everybody disagrees with it then that's not very moral is it not quite i don't think it's moral is what he's getting for us is that it change won't happen there's a problem there's a lot of words that uh sometimes i want to blame english but i also want to blame asmigold for the use of uh silhouettes if somebody found out that somebody used ai it's not going to decrease their enjoyment about it it might it might yeah it could because um the nature in which how a thing was made it can have all kinds of effects on your enjoyment i think or it might have zero i completely understand it sometimes it can make you like it more sometimes it can make no difference sometimes it can i think that what we've seen online we've seen many examples of this i don't know how many people in chat have but like people posting ai works being like hey man this is if this this is if west anderson made lord the rigs and then those people like fuck you go away it's like jeez what what i do nothing is like get out of here ai i mean uh someone's pointed out an example remember secret invasions intro that fuck that show off next time that was probably the biggest controversy even though it had fucking draxob that was probably a bigger controversy yeah secret invasion like that that was i feel like that doomed the show before it doomed it like with its writing before before episode six came out you know i was already fucked because of that intro just because you say something is stolen doesn't mean that everybody else in the world has to care about it no i don't but they might very much care about it and then more people will care about it and then eventually you care so much about it in the case of i feel james summaton is really good actually as an example he runs away and deletes the whole channel which was an immense effect he's gone yeah even try to come back and apologize and it went so badly he ran away again like he's like oh shit that didn't work i think he said something like um i'll come back and apologize when i'm less emotionally compromised or something when i think what everyone seems to believe is just like there's not much you can say other than yep you got me it's about it that you i guess you could say sorry i understand what you're saying but you still have to have other people care about it in order for it to be true and so you've made it you've made a judgment oh this is stolen let me give you an example i'm living on stolen land the native americans had this and then we came over here and killed them and now it's our land well we're not going to be giving that back and at the end of the day nobody gives a shit i don't even i'm not even people do give a shit i don't want to touch this with a fucking 10 foot pole okay like this is not the example i would have gone with doesn't act what a terrible terrible example like i okay but out of respect for you mauler there is no function maybe i'm you know it's fine for you there are people who care there are there are people who would disagree about the nature of it they're they're off the amount of people care quite a bit yes yes information will create that will not change anything everybody knows it's true and nobody cares and if you think that you do go give your house away to a native american family and leave the what the fuck are you talking about this is what we were talking about with a binary of caring like if you care that you do that it's like well no you could care and not do that that doesn't mean you have to do that in country but nobody's going to do that because you don't really care that's i just i i fundamentally disagree you only fundamentally disagree to present yourself as if you are sympathetic to the situation while simultaneously benefiting from its existence that's just the way that it is is stealing okay if you don't sell it it's it depends i agree with that is stealing okay if you don't sell it's like well it's stealing okay is a complicated one in general mm-hmm so people are targeting specific artists and using their names as actual prompt phrases to create the art ai just meshes a bunch of pieces together it's not creating anything new uh a human being can also create art from pure creative individuality and an ai algorithm cannot exist without thousands of art that it scrapes um yeah you're right i i'm not sure if i understand what your point is there are always going to be people that are trying to define what art and what art is and what is art what art is not excuse me nobody has a monopoly on telling anybody else what art is it doesn't matter what you believe art is because like for example i've seen a lot of modern art and modern art looks like my room it looks like a garbage on my table but somebody else doesn't think that really the picture of his his room is kind of it is kind of actually yeah there's a lot of fascinating things to draw from it i there's a story that's told in that piece i i guess i agree with him on the subject of everybody's got an opinion on what art is and the even though i i might completely disagree with the category we have the most like expensive artworks in the world are things that i'm like what that's barely dissimilar from a pile of poop on the floor like i i i understand this point of view sure i'm back and i'll go back to the example that i used before of jackson pollock it took me a long time to understand the value or understand that other people see value in something like a jackson pollock painting that's the guy to understand that people find value in it it took me like an instant like the speed of thought because like someone just said i find value well no it's like they if someone says i find all i think jackson pollocks really interesting and i really value his work and what it means to me and i'm like all right well yeah under that uh pay of view i suppose that there's no difficulty in understanding people getting value in everything but even we would still have have equivalence of that being like you know people saying for example like oh it's so i just i love Thor Love and Thunder i adore that movie which would be like really you know i can i get it tell you why they well they can try i suppose i just i love true yeah i'm trying to imply like they would just say uh good vibes because they wouldn't have much meaning or substantive things to say about the movie because there's so little in it but at the same time i i guess i get that anyone could love anything it did like all the squiggly lines a long time to figure out why well i think he's probably talked about a span of years that like covers him being a kid where he would be like well it's just which would be fine well you might you might even i don't i don't i almost don't think this is that unreasonable i think people can look at jackson pollock be like what the fuck and then almost don't believe that people actually value anything in it and that it's all done through like high-end art stuff like there's business shit going on that everyone's telling each other it's worth something but then you actually meets a person who says like no jackson pollock's paintings as that guy we covered right it's like it's a fusion of pure emotion it's a delving into the human soul when you hear that you're like oh okay i'm sure there are people in the chat right now who would uh say unequivocally that they don't like modern art or doesn't matter it's stupid or whatever um so you know and i find quite a lot of value in uh lots of modern art but i i absolutely agree with that we we throw that up there are some modern art pieces that are really fucking cool then there are some we're just like what the fuck what is this this is just like it's fucking around you're taking the piss and then there's those lore words you have to read the book and then you can appreciate the art you're like okay fine i guess there's something about standing in front of uh jackson pollock and realizing that it is in fact 12 feet wide and 10 feet what do people say this i i no it's fine you go ahead no it's fine i don't i guess it's just i i guess i guess the fact that it's a big canvas that i i don't know i guess i don't assign the the same like being impressed with it that a lot of other people do sure look it's there can be simple things to it's all right yeah go ahead yep i'm just gonna say is it's not that i mean that the canvas itself is big oh look at that it's about the fact that you are are seeing a monumental effort of work and you're realizing the many um you know days months years that go into it uh you're talking earlier about the the soul of the artwork right and realizing that and kind of uh connecting to the art through that that's what i mean is standing in front of this piece of artwork can often be the difference between seeing it on a computer screen going uh it's not super impressive and then standing in person going oh no that is very impressive and you know for pollock at least i think that that is something that tends to be kind of missing from the the discussion yeah i um i don't think if i was in front of a jackson pollock piece i would i'd think any more of it which is totally fine too page it's subjective so i don't think that you're in any position to say what is or is not art because i can guarantee you you might think that you know there's a lot of people that go to church that probably don't think that your background pictures aren't that what what are we doing specifically people who go to church they go to church might not think your background picture is art i don't think this is a surprise to anybody that's yeah but they'd be wrong and retarded like i don't know like this okay well that's the thing that about this statement it's like if he's just establishing there everyone's got a different opinion on what is art it's like yep they don't everyone can equally say what is it isn't art not that no one can i guess that's a perspective thing but yeah i imagine you'd say yes i agree file pictures aren't but i bet that you probably do and and that's just and and you're not wrong and neither are they because art is subjective and i wouldn't put it like that in some way in some ways so if people say ai is art then it is the issue isn't defining art it's the theft of scraping thousands of art pieces on the net without feeling that d values are if it's the only requirement is it is what when you say it is yeah i'm fine with that under the pressure of just saying i draw meaning from this thing you're like yeah sure but saying something is an artwork or whatever i just i feel like we have to reduce the category a little bit before it just becomes everything and everything anything about your scent to then replace the artist an artist can create without seeing other art an ai generator cannot that's actually a really interesting thought i think that humans can generate art technically without any kind of visual or oral exposure to anything but a bot can't or at least bots as they currently stand can't well what about an artist that doesn't what that creates after seeing other art like i think that you're kind of talking around my point if an artist is able to use something as an inspiration to create their own thing that thing that they've created is derivative of the thing that originally exists and so on a fundamental level you're saying that ai isn't art because it's derivative and is this yeah but again not a binary no i think it's probably about the process and what goes into it right well but and and still the if we're gonna say like directly copy and pasting something versus drawing it from memory versus thinking about the idea of the thing and drawing it these are all different levels of derivative right that you wouldn't say that they're all derivative i feel like that's not very useful it's also not art because it is derivative do you see kind of my point here please explain what inspiration is and how yeah i see his point i just don't agree with it he's saying that the all of them are derivative sort of if you're gonna say that ai art is derivative because it's made of different pieces of art when remember his point from earlier is that humans do the same thing they create art from art they've seen previously or inspired by it's just that that's the fundamental distinction difference that a lot of you that's like almost the fundamental of the discussion on ai art now it's comparable to an algorithm uh it i think it depends right so i actually don't think that the human brain is that much different from a computer now the human brain is infinitely more advanced than a computer but i think that it's fundamentally the same thing in a lot of ways um so i don't believe in this like uh that's a like kind of like a other thing right is that whether or not you agree or disagree with that idea it's probably gonna have a big impact on what you think about this topic yeah um well for example rags you mentioning um synthetic people right in fiction being replicants that there would be computers that are essentially they've replicated so hard to human brain you can barely tell the difference and then if someone swaps the sentiment of to in a way a human brain is just a really complex computer so i i i guess yeah this is all again a context thing because when you just state the human brain is essentially just a computer i could see everyone being like that's retarded then i could also see everyone being like hmm yeah kind of it really depends on that's all i'm learning from this whole thing is how much everything is couched in all of the language and accounting for everyone's interpretations of the words you're using yes yeah it's like we were talking about earlier if you just boil everything down to electrical impulses like a circuit board has transistors and capacitors on it transistors direct a flow of electricity one to another that sort of represents a choice and then you have a capacitor that either holds a charge or doesn't which is basically a true or false statement yes or no and like if you you can say a brain is basically doing that same sort of thing on that level but he's saying he's doing a weird thing here where he's saying they're basically the same but the brain is infinitely more complicated like if it's infinitely confusing i assume he just means that my pc is infinitely more complicated than a calculator from 20 years ago and then my brain is infinitely more complicated than my computer currently is you know i mean like that they're all scaling um right but i get what you're saying it's like well if you think they're the same but also one of them is way more complicated than it sounds like they're not the same and then and then you know there are some people arguing from a sense of like there's things you're missing from a human brain in a computer replicating it you'll always be missing sort of thing but then again that's what free was saying it comes down to a fundamental belief at this point about what the human brain even is um it's funny he's he's said this to aid in clarity when i think this is only going to draw people into further camps that are like what they can't say this right like in the cases of our brain what is directing the direction of those you know electrical impulses why is electricity flowing from one part of the brain to the other what's sort of guiding it you know in the case of a computer it's like mouse clicks it's or a boot process or whatever yeah right well that that's it right you know what the nature of human consciousness is it's like yeah in the case of human brain is some superseding controller that's like at the point of the infinite or beyond the infinite you know if we can just figure out the nature of the human brain and the replication of human consciousness we can then decide whether to support pal willed yes you know oh well because it comes from your mind that it's so much different than a computer most people's minds work in ways that computers work no yes they do computers connect information together and that's what your mind does as well well shit whenever yeah it's a little little simple i mean well i guess i guess he's right you think about things you synthesize information together to come to a coherent thought that's fundamentally what ai does as well in a very abstract sense well you can't well if it's in a very abstract sense and we're talking about something different this is what i mean i think when you get to these conversations like those little abstracts weirds or whatever the words being used like that i was just like yeah i feel like that's doing a lot of leaping because i'm someone who believes that eventually we'll be able to create an ai that no one will be able to tell is not a human being interacting that's the worry with chat gpt and stuff already but that at the same time it's like would i then consider that diss entirely similar to a human brain or not which again i feel like is the realm of what soma was hyper trying to address and figure out i understand the conversation it's just that uh i feel like maybe this is a little clunky as a thought process and it's going to make everyone even more confused on what he's trying to say i'm sort of finding art you know for discussion i'm not the thing is like i'm not mad at the people that are disagreeing with me i'm not mad at them i'm not like i'm like i'm not mad at you i'm not i'm not like this isn't something that i'm upset about i'm just having a conversation about it cool i don't know why other people are getting so mad to be honest with you you haven't feel it together yet i was gonna say i feel like maybe you have a little piece that together yet man he he does surely know like a lot of people take very grand umbridge to this because it it represents like a serious blight on the world to them depending on their particular views um i mean like yeah like the like he's always gonna have you know stuff like based on what he does yeah he probably doesn't have to worry about any of this stuff but some people actually have like a stake in this well i mean i'm not even saying necessarily you have to have a stake in it you could you could just be worried from a philosophical point of view about the future of humanity and stuff about two yeah i guess that counts as having a stake in it like i was like yeah i guess the future of humanity yes but there it is you're basing on a level of people aren't gonna understand well if people don't understand it that doesn't make me wrong i think you're probably well you can work on you know yeah define things and you can explain what you mean when you say the words that probably will help a bit you're really wrong about the brain being a computer what about it is wrong as a paramedic uh it's not necessarily true the way to think about uh q computers are binary integrated they have to think and do's and don'ts brains have multiple chemicals a lot of this is gonna come down to like the technicalities of different processes and how well yeah because the response to anyone's uh assessment of what is in a brain that a computer can't recreate the response would be could it simulate it and then usually the answer would be like well if yes then how would you know ultimately and then what is but this is almost going into theory about whether or not we could be simulations and you're like ah there's too much from a brain all at once i can't take it ways to each other right you're right that the brain isn't the exact same thing as a computer but i said that your brain functions in a lot of same ways that the computer does a lot of same ways you said connects information so they're basically the same that's true it's not the exact same thing and i think that in 200 years somebody will be able to make a computer that thinks like a human brain i think that it's inevitable to be honest with you i can't imagine anybody thinking that it won't happen then i kind of agree on function but it's not really the same for me sorry so somebody else responds and they say a crowbar is a tool that's no excuse to use it to burn the house i don't know if i've ever had that on watch together before it wants you guys being real weird today that it won't i'm gonna refresh my page i shall wait for a bit look jordan peterson would have an aneurysm look at asma gold's room yes never mind the discussion just the room remember loves to clean their room okay yeah mobsters clean their room and love their mommas like jordan i said mob oh i thought you said mobsters uh mobsters clean their room hermit crab certainly clean their room because they it's on their back i think i think mobsters probably do as well a lot of them uh probably yeah not when they're super into the coke and they take all the coke and then they let their room degrade and that's evidence that the coke is evil i want to make sure everyone understands that and also are you all reloaded yeah i didn't realize but i mean i'm good you're good then you're good what happened then i kind of agree on function but it's not really the same okay so somebody else responds and they say a crowbar that's them for that it's good it is kind of like this is way too complicated it's just like okay fine i think he realized like this isn't helping so i'll just move on to this bar is a tool that's no excuse to use it to burgle houses is it same goes with ai it's a thief's tool and when it uh so what's interesting already all burglings is house it involves a house in a sense because burgle comes from the german for house thief so this is a very bad choice to compare because it's so you can tear this apart like a crowbar is a tool that's no excuse to use burgle houses it's like okay but a crowbar could also just like you could use anything to burgle you don't need a you know i mean like i could use like a fucking a gameboy to smash a window if i really wanted to i guess um and then saying like it's a thief's tool the ai like according to analysis it's more so about how we use it so yeah like it's it should not be acceptable and then and then it comes into the complication like but what if i'm stealing something back what if i'm stealing just like that's not what it's like i know but it's just you don't want to make an analogy that makes things more complicated and it should not be acceptable if ai piracy is okay the media piracy also is why should i pay for something that's stolen from artists circular reasoning the guy responds back um a crowbar is a tool that can be used by thieves ai is a tool that can also be used by thieves ai can be used in many ways most artists who complain about ai art theft are furry artists who can't charge $15 for their commissions anymore there i said it i can't believe of fur how many furries got mad at me today it was crazy nothing's original anymore it's probably a lot of artists i don't i don't know what furries thing is being that i i don't see i think it's probably a lot of artists might be concerned in some way yeah furries is just weirdly narrowing it i mean yeah i think it's mostly just for funny it's probably just be like see we can dunk on furries that's an easy dunk you know those furries we're making them angry so it is an easy dunk that's you gotta you gotta get better representation okay in media you need more diversity anymore furries they're a bunch of fucking crazy cringe weirdos oh now it's buffering for me control all right hang on i need to refresh these models all right wow yeah i don't know it's strange i've never had uh i don't think i've ever had watched together buffer um who knows cool but it seems to be fine with me i reloaded and it worked fine so i have reloaded control arguments the person not the tool or the tool or the person yeah exactly by the way whoever makes like a good watch together you could you know you could there's you know if you're out there yeah you could someone could make like a a good watch together that has a non-shit ui design and you know pretty you know functions well and stuff like that there are like 15 alternatives and they're all remember that time we tried a bunch of them they were horrible they were all they were terrible and they just didn't do the basic thing there's one comment uh you're worth what anyone is going to give you anything else is just fantasy wow the philosophers on twitter today jeez i'm not even like assessing whether or not he's right just like a fun to be like what a lame quote it's so depressing like you're only worth what people willing to give you anything else is fantasy like damn have some self with you know believe in yourself and recognize your own value you don't need to get it from other people a lot of artists throughout history died in poverty i guess they weren't worth anything hey little girl with cancer i just want you to know that you're worthless because you're not base get a job losing good thing we have rich people to do the right thing and help her oh wait you're still in a fantasy land where those people are supposed to give their own money to make people happy that's not life that's fantasy what's happening here yeah the guy just so this person um is obviously totally fucking right um you know obviously like nobody has a uh you know the moral authority unless you have the government do it uh to uh just go take somebody else's money and give it to another person right that's just how it is and this is another response that a person has made obviously you're correct but your explanation wasn't great metaphors with physical items work better if an ai chef oh yeah i really like this example i wanted to show it to you guys uh if an ai chef existed and could make the best tasting meals instantly and for cheaper no one would ever pick a human chef or they would sign prime that's not true though i mean we actually talked about that with the rip a chef existing well so the thing about that what's happened uh that we've seen already and this is in a lot of sci-fi media too is that if people know that it's non-human the thing that's being created then they automatically don't want it they're just like get away from me it's like you wouldn't care if it's amazing it's like no the point is that as soon as they're made aware and they want to be aware they don't want to encourage they don't want to involve themselves in artificially created things you know it could be could be food could be artworks could be whatever have you you get you get a there's a group of people who will be averse to the synthetic people that's always portrayed in the sci-fi stuff right it's like yeah you disgust me because you're not you're you're a perversion of humanity that sort of stuff so yes if there was an ai chef that existed and you could make the best tasting meals instantly oh sure loads people would be signed up to get that food but not everyone a lot of people would be like i'll go with the humans like you know in star trek like there's a great value placed on manually making food yourself even though you know food is a limitless resource and it's all delicious i mean the whole being able to do it by hand owning an actual winery and that stuff has value it's still you know the real deal is always going to have some element of um genu whineness what was the word i'm looking for the having the quality of being genuine genu whinity genu whiner yeah but i was wondering if there was like like a version of the word genu whiner that was that was like a you know what i mean like genu authenticity yeah yeah yeah but but i was curious if there was like a specific like genu whiner point being but yeah the for lack of a better you know authenticity that comes with you know the real thing the actual getting a pan heating it up having a person there to you know smell it taste it make sure it's good the skill that goes into that and of course letting the personal element of is like yeah your kid's drawing is really shitty yet we know but we're still going to put it on the fridge because it you know it has a lot of sentimental value and it's good to the person to you know treat those things with value and to encourage them you know it's yeah and maybe when it comes to like creating dishes there's some cases where the ingredients are flawed and is the ai going to be able to detect and work around that like can you compare that can you equate an ai system to the eye of a chef or they they're able to look at a steak and it's just like oh you know what i'm gonna like cook this like an extra minute or like a minute less or something whereas like an ai is looking for certain signatures to make it switch from like a a binary state of like keep doing this thing or like do the next step in the cooking process like you need to consider like how sophisticated is the programming you know like what's it looking for what's the ai looking for when it's like cooking these things sometimes because they do cool tricks and stuff like that at certain restaurants but yeah in a general i mean yeah that could be another thing she'll like i guess an ai could do programs for the cool cool tricks too all sense this is true and that's what's so crazy about it as a chef agreed yeah exactly performance chefs are wow the assault bay there you go nobody likes that guy so that's you know kill two birds with one stone right there you go and so anyway uh that's completely different um is this a person who is okay this is another ardent disagreeer in chat why is it different data scientists here the tech doesn't steal images it just learns the natural distribution patterns that are representative of your descriptions the way that you say it makes me think that you're right and i i bet you're probably right but i don't have enough education in that to be able to say oh yeah it's so true yeah that's fair as far as i'm aware as well there's all kinds of ways the ai uh artworks you know they all have different systems behind them and they take from different sources it's hard to be definitively clamping down on any one topic or other i guess it's easier to do it by topic rather than by actually referencing any of these individual systems because most people aren't familiar with exactly how any of them work we're rather just talking about the theory but i think that you're probably right on that it doesn't matter how much an artist thinks their art is worth if people don't want to buy it it's the same with any other product like in relation to how much i guess they could sell it for sure but i just want to make sure that we're all okay with the the whole thing of like finding value in your own work is still very valuable good for you as an individual like i said he eventually mentions personal value versus market value which i really feel like would have helped if you had done that to begin with yes i it's as i said it's astonishing to me that like i'm getting any pushback for this it's just the truth and we all know it every day the youtubers are pretty work still don't get why i mean i don't think you should be astonished that you're getting pushback on this well didn't you say at one point that um uh he could have presented it better but that by presenting it the way that he did it got people angry and more infused into the conversation more aggressive you know like he's implying that there's a strategy to being less communicative to well people can get mad about me all they want uh i'm i'm totally okay with that so as chef makes food true an ai can follow a recipe whereas art is not exactly bound by rules and as it's pure inspiration as i said in previous statements ai or machine learning is completely based on copy and paste logic you're right in some things but detail is missing as you're saying to be fair okay so let's go ahead and address this so an ai is following a recipe which is created by copy and pasting what a human does i'm not sure that these two things follow ai and machine learning it's completely based on copy and paste logic yeah so this is the same thing right like i i don't know it's not humans can make art without ever seeing anything yeah but humans have seen things so like we're not but yeah but that's a bad bad then also some humans have not seen things so we're not talking about but we're talking about like well i imagine what he means is like if you look at a you know a cave painting it's like ah look at that you know there had to be a first one right um i guess you'd say well yeah but i mean they saw the deer or whatever they saw it and then they drew it on the cave yeah and and so that would be which i get which is an interesting point in terms of identifying that you know nowadays like if you exist now um then you've definitely seen a lot of art you've seen it you've definitely seen it just by existing and then there's the stuff that you like that is particularly interesting to you that then informs you know if you want to start drawing or painting the kinds of things you want to make um and then obviously there's the things that you just see naturally right a big part of being good as an artist is having good observational skills that you can look at things and think of ways to present them that are either you know lifelike or cartoonish but still bear some resemblance to reality but at some point you have to draw it back to the first person who decided to draw something ever um and they would have done it without having seen any art before made by humans well if then the that's the point is just the even even him looking at a landscape or a deer or whatever it's just it's just a reference imagery taken from something else and that's what it all is you're like oh but then what if it comes from a blind deaf person's imagination i'm sure there's a blind deaf artist out there oh yeah there's gotta be i'm sure they exist like you're talking about a theoretical like we've all seen things i mean maybe if you're helen keller or something like that sure or just a blind person you know that you can be blind there's a lot of blind people as far as i know it like you know not not a significant portion of the population but a lot of people and surely several of them are artists or at least dabbled general sense we've all seen things and the things that we see influence what kind of art we would make what is this what are we talking about draw a picture of something you've never seen yeah i can't well wait but i we do that a lot draw a picture of something you've never seen yeah unless it means you can ask someone draw something you've never seen and they'll be like okay and they just come up with something crazy yeah um because someone could be like yeah but okay so draw something you've never seen and you draw like a five-legged creature it's like yeah but that's just based off of four legged creatures where you've added one it's like okay so when you say draw something i've never seen you mean draw something that's not even within our universe because like in theory i guess i could still do that right like draw something i'm not even going with love crafting that some people are suggesting it's like i i mean if i drew i'm trying to think of like as long as it doesn't match any structure or creature in the universe known universe like it would count i guess yeah like you know like because people say gigas like if you go with alien like ah yeah but that's too legged too armed so that's close enough to a human that it's just a variation on that like yeah you'd want some frame of reference right like two arms okay but i also can't be two legs like are you just going to change it every time i draw something well yeah if i drew a massive tentacles then they're like wow that's just kind of like a weird octopus like so what what i don't really know what you mean then because uh if it can't be i guess lovecraft is the only answer because it would be have to be something that can't be described and it can only not be described because there's no reference to it in the our universe that could make it more understandable for a person yeah but at that point that just seems self-defeating as a like that doesn't add anything to the conversation like draw something that is is unrecognizable it's almost like saying draw something that can't be viewed you know how do you know what's unrecognizable like i'm thinking about like the example of somebody being blind and deaf like that's so much sensory input that's like being locked off but like presumably a person in that position could like still touch and feel things but is that enough to sort of inform them of like how to artistically create something you know like i don't know yeah i don't know um if it's just a matter of makes it like when you say make something it isn't recognizable it was like what do we mean like in the meta unrecognizable or like well here's drawing like i don't know what you've drawn or that i don't know you have drawn what about jackson pollock if if he showed you his paintings said i've drawn something oh sure yeah that's fair point yeah because it was what do i say to that like well that that's clearly the abyss like it was something i'm like i recognize that's a that's a swamp with a bunch of blood in it i recognize that that's that's a good point because in my example i was sort of thinking of art with some recognizable form to it but definitely of course like formless art abstraction of stuff yeah we've gone way into the theoretical that's what we do can't type into python python inspiration do you think that one day you will know okay can i also address what you said about the theoretical of course yeah and also i mean i can type into stable diffusion snake and it can make a snake if the point of an ai chef is to make food cheaper that's great but i think the argument is that ai chefs couldn't innovate like human chefs can an ai chef can't innovate like a human chef can so you're again you're getting attached to the minutiae of the process of a product i mean that might necessarily be that might necessarily be true in some instances uh because if uh if a if a construct of some kind an ai construct doesn't have the ability to taste or it doesn't have the physical receptors in order to do that then it literally might just lack the capability to do a thing in much the same way that a machine that doesn't possess like any like limbs cannot move it's something it literally cannot do yes yeah presumably it's all constructed so we know what it's capable of down to individual components right and programming yeah yeah like you're not gonna accidentally give a construct like that the ability to smell and taste like that's not gonna happen accidentally as you design it it will be something that you program it with a capability of knowing how it deploys those sensations though is another thing entirely if it did have them probably interesting thing about that though is the programmers would upon iteration iteration iteration try to simulate that it's like what you know say for example it's like how do you simulate an imagination in a human and it's like i don't know you picture a bunch of things but they're kind of weird versions and that's where you start and then you're like that's the result we've got it's like that's weird and it clearly has a problem of doing this and it's like we we cut that out and we add some more things in and you know that's just how they go for however many years until they actually generate something that we're like oh that looks kind of like what an imagination would be and you know that just goes the same for all the different things of humanity i think that a lot of people think are human restricted like um well uh inspiration i suppose sure imagine what the chef example like you have programmers who will just talk to a chef and be like okay what would you do with this dish it's like okay well i do this i do this i'd look at this ingredient i'd evaluate this and that and then i do that and then he would be just writing all that down in something called pseudocode which is basically just like a layman's english version of all the lines of instruction that are going to eventually be programmed into the final like code right so it's like if this condition is true do this do this do that and then you just transform each of those lines into an actual code that a that a program can recognize or like a in a language that a program can recognize right what i'm telling you is that here i i can make a chart and maybe this will make it easier for people the green part is the part that the customer cares about this part the customer doesn't care about so this entire sometimes oftentimes and i think that there's some things that all customers do actually care about in the process of making something that you could provide like an extreme hypothetical or just the reference to how in the west there's a couple of things that are just absolutely unacceptable yeah like in like in kitchens having any kind of mother and i forced her to make this under threat of death and torture yeah well right in the kitchen people consider that absolutely unacceptable i guess and and you'd be like they won't care if the food's good it's like they will though a lot of people just will this is a big old poop in the kitchen you're like ah fuck that i need in here yeah like yeah you guys know that it's like collectively as a society we all decided to stop watching the milcosby show if um i could imagine if somebody was i don't know if a chef he dropped a steak and let's say somehow he picks it up a literal millisecond after it hits the ground and then the robot comes along and says yep there is nothing wrong with this steak i think like a lot of people still wouldn't want to have that steak that fell on the ground yeah a lot of people will be able to recognize that that's okay just makes them feel icky yeah even if there is literally nothing wrong with it like that there is absolutely zero contamination maybe a subset of the robot's programing can scan the steak and be like oh no germ's detected and then it throws the steak away and gets a new one the five second rule you could program into robots the steak was recovered 4.6 seconds you know after you know after dropping just gonna keep an eye on chat after i say this but precious precious guests should make my precious cast here would you ever maybe could you imagine someone maybe eating some bread and looking at it and noticing that could very well be maggots in it and then they continue eating it i can imagine that happening yeah i i i do not i wouldn't do that myself no but i can imagine yeah i can imagine creatures who might eat maggoty bread for three stinking days i mean it's possible that such a thing exists yeah hmm is not relevant to a sale now there are exceptions like farmers markets and and again usually farmers markets people the reason why people go to farmers markets is because the end product is actually better uh it's actually not just because they want to support local farms it's also because that the product i don't i don't actually i don't actually know i think that those cross-actions would exist that's fine but we've also acknowledged the existence of the people who just do it to support the local people you see that all the time in all kinds of ways support your local creators support local people support fundamental like solve the earth people doing local things like yeah you see that all the time local businesses i disagree with the idea that they only ever do it if they think they're getting a better product as well like no not necessarily obviously yeah well i i'm happy to say there's a Venn diagram but there's there's those that exist that just do it to support the uh the stores or whatever better and it might taste better to them so this is the problem that people on twitter don't really seem to understand they think that this matters uh this is what people care about so i agree with yeah that's the fact that they care means well some people do care then because they do and then if you switch the goal post to okay some care it'd be like well not an insignificant amount in any way shape or form and especially because the only way to get it is to be a significant amount is for the insignificant to begin the fucking role isn't it exactly i mean if the attitude was that well if it's an insignificant amount you know based on my definition of significant or insignificant so don't even do anything yeah and i guess very little would be achieved ever if people follow through on that uh advice it's important i just i love that ms paint image like it's an academic powerpoint presentation or something there's just a big chunk of a pie chart it's like nobody cares about this part i well i don't think he would want to use presented that way i actually would prefer more people do that presenting because diagrams could be really helpful to understand what they see what they say oh for sure yeah i definitely see the utility and just sketching something out for people for sure it's just i just find it funny that's all knowing that a human know what they are doing especially with our with art to any degree art music you name it whereas with robots ai or whatever there is no admission of that truth you get what i mean i agree about the customer but if i'm in the court with sony over it they're going to care again you're right but i think the other side has a point and they're not it's not that their point isn't invalid it it's that their point is unpopular and it is not the resounding opinion of the general audience so you think that another element of this is that he derives opinion from action when we don't actually it's not quite the one-to-one as in like you clearly don't care because you bought x thing and a lot of people would tell you like i do care but i don't have like much choice in terms of what i can spend my money on because of how poor i am for example and they weigh it up in a moral sense and they choose what they consider to be the less of two evils what i'm trying to establish is just that the care exists it's just modified by other cares not necessarily don't care if yeah if like you're saying if you don't have as much money to spend then the price of a cheaper object is going to be almost entirely decided on the process that made it that way like someone said then you don't care enough well at that point that's that's down to the talking to the individual and whether or not you even agree and whether or not you would make the same decision in the same uh circumstance you know this kind of comes down to would you steal a loaf of bread to feed your family it's like i mean probably yeah absolutely i'm selfish and i have a self-centered worldview i think that most people have what i refer to and i think this is it's not what i refer i didn't invent this i think that other people have referred to this as well uh they have a self-referential worldview so everything in their life and their values and opinions and everything that they think is referring back to their own beliefs and their own life so if things are not beneficial for them then that doesn't matter they don't care about it if it is then they do care about it and so everything in their life and all of their opinions and actions are self-referential i think you should have said if it affects you in a significant way you care about it if it doesn't you don't yeah because yeah there there are things that just don't at all affect me in any way and want to hear about them i'm like oh i'm glad that exists yeah that's i mean how many times have you learned about a new animal that it just like lives on the other side of the world in the jungles of asia and you it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever and then someone's like hey have you heard about the kichiki cheeky bird i'm like no i haven't and then you see him you're like oh that's i'm glad that that exists it was most funny is what we got many super chats that relate to extinct animals and we're just like oh wow look at that it's like that animal's not even alive why do you care like what like i don't know he's neat yeah even if i had no interaction with a kichiki cheeky bird i feel like if i saw a picture of it i'd be like oh that looks cool yeah it's like just so you could you could tell as you open up the the picture and look at it you're like yeah yeah i with a name like that i know he'd need to look like that yeah he i can tell this is asking the way yeah that is so a kichiki cheeky bird if i haven't someone said uh and then you forget about it almost immediately and it's like i've forgotten more things that i care about than i care about i mean i i'm not gonna stop learning about things and enjoying things on the risk of i won't on my death bed remember it well it could be tomorrow the one of you guys tell me about some franchise that i should be invested in it and then a week later i'm more invested into the most franchises and it's like yeah and at the same time it could be a movie that i said was really awesome you know in two years time i've forgotten most of it and i'm like oh shit yeah i don't really care about that yeah all the time yeah there's also have value just because they don't remember them for a very long time if the picture of the kichiki cheeky bird only gives me joy for four minutes and then i actually do forget about it is like well i'm glad that i had that little like hey that was nice that was fun well yeah especially when compared to um oh did you know the old richie down in the store he actually um he he bought a briefcase today you're like i don't i don't care like okay okay fine i just you know it's fine i guess i care about it i'd be interested i'd be like well oh like why you like why did you tell me this what this is a fairly mundane well that's the that's the interesting thing it's like why'd you bring that up what's going on and if if only to prove that this things that i could say that you don't care about i have accidentally proved that you care about everything i say because they're not referencing a principle they're not referencing an ideal they are referencing what they want to do you're a nihilist i want to do my principles my ideals though that's a strange way to word it also i hesitate to call anyone a nihilist i just say the the i could understand why people would would fear that we're entering nihilism with some of the stuff that you said it's like the fuck you it's all meaningless nobody makes a difference nobody matters until the market decides you do it feels very defeatist almost like oh yeah yeah it's not an attitude that i would want to have or one other and he would say like whoa no no no and then he talked about like the proactive steps to make in a environment like that but like i said i understand how people could get there but i wouldn't call this nihilism what he said he i think he would prefer that we call him a realist self-centered mean very there's a lot there's a lot of cynicism that gets flagged as nihilism when they need to be parsed you know oh and i'm not is it better to be a comedy for instance you know is it's better to be a cynicist or a nihilist cynicism a cynicist i think yeah but at the same time nihilism is just like you don't like you think we're just all on a downward trajectory and there's no hope and like there's no that's pass them having ambition i would i thought nihilism was that nothing means anything it's all me yeah it's like nihilism is like nothing matters and cynicism would be like oh well i guess my my definitions are off that's that's pretty much what i was getting at yeah nothing means anything like what's the point in having any sort of ambition to to do anything if everything sucks well what what you wait for with nihilism is and so like as in taking that where do you go next you know you that's what the you want to ask the individual they might say nowhere because nothing means anything they might also go into absurdism or existentialism or one of the other bonus boys that can be drawn out of experiencing nihilism for a little bit but you know what i guess what i'm trying to say is don't worry if you're a nihilist we don't judge you everyone's welcome here if you know if you're a nihilist it doesn't matter so don't worry about it is true a lot of people i know and interact with i'm not interested in people trying to pinpoint down my viewpoint on things my viewpoint is not somewhat interested in that yeah i'm decently interested in people understanding what i think and why i think it i think part of i mean it's really helpful if you're in this line of work that we do especially because we're sort of in a way we're if you're a professional opinion giver then it probably is quite important that people you want people to understand you right i think it's important that people understand me um sure all i will say about that is that there is a balance in one's head though of sometimes you want to engage in the aggression and kirt and like almost blunt deliveries to actually make people sort of snap into listening to you uh he was mentioning that earlier but at the same time yeah communication you know it's like it's a bit of a tight rope sometimes sometimes you want to be like you know what i'm just gonna fucking say it how it is and it actually like gets through to people better than what what's all my call over intellectualizing something like in non-artistic communication you definitely want to be clearly understood i think all the time but like you know with art you want to lead well what i'm interpretation like it could be this thing it could be that thing what i'm saying is if for example a dinosaur is heading to the house and we're there john and i'm like all right you need to understand a dinosaur is heading here and we need to run now i could i could see myself being like no that won't work because you're not even gonna believe me you're gonna be like what the fuck you're talking about a dinosaur so instead if i just grab you instead of fucking dinosaur you just like i go aggressive and quick and then i just start dragging you out it's like that's actually better communication even though conventionally speaking it would be worse right right like depending on the situation but i mean not like the dinosaur heading towards us right now we're fine okay springy soul the truth is what's relevant and that's what i think people don't understand and what i like to do is i like to show examples of that truth other people like to talk about how the world should be and how they act and how their friends act well that's nice but nobody cares it doesn't really matter because again that's again self-referential how would it does he think that like a billion people have to care about something before it matters or like what this is i almost wish we could strike from his ability to use uh nobody cares or nobody matters like we have to throw them out and he has to say something else because i feel like it's only making him harder to understand important to see like i was saying earlier it seems to be like rather than a fixed number of people if the people complaining exceeds the amount of sales then it's a problem whatever those numbers may be so it's like a rate i don't know like i mean i'm just saying like i assume that's where the line is drawn if he's not gonna say exactly where the line is himself like that it would seem to be that would be the assumption to make you know on that and to look at what are you doing what is the world doing not what are you doing and so we're talking about hypotheticals i don't like talking about hypotheticals we do i wouldn't say nobody though there's never a nobody there's never an everybody so then stop using those fucking words say those things also there are instances where you'd use those words they definitely are they're useful but i think that it is a vast minority of people that nobody can eat their own head as was pointing out in team america so there you go i'm gonna be proven wrong by that when someone fucking clones themselves and eat oh god damn it really care about these things and i don't think that it is in any way shape or form a majority and i don't even think that it's remotely close i think that less than five percent of people care about it do you believe in trying to give a shit ton of fucking people and it can become if but the don't you see already though it you like five percent of people cared you're like that could easily become ten percent and then twenty percent five percent is five percent is one in twenty because that could be explained by the fact that the other 95 don't care after discovering it or they haven't heard about it yet we don't know because the stats don't tell us that part i'd only if i think i can which you can't but more and more people are concerned with how the products they buy are consumed or made why because the reason why people want organic food it's because it's organic it's because it's it's created in a way that they feel is more healthy that's that it's a higher quality product they're not buying organic food because they like they have some like moral feeling about it some people do they don't have to say it he's about to say some people do yeah he's about to say it it's literally a whole industry but the majority of people do it because they believe it's healthier yes at least one percent do it okay the thing is this is what's making this so difficult he's like let's begin with no one cares about the process and then someone says like well this is proof that they do and then he's like no it's only proof that some people do it's like you said nobody now i said some people now you'll say that you've said some people the whole time it's like well then what because it gets really communicator when you're in the realm of some it's just it almost feels like a matter of you can't even disagree because if you said five and the next guy says 10 next guy says 15 i guess all of you are saying some people are buying it because it's a better and higher quality product so i think i don't think you can use that it's more healthy it has less preservatives it has these different reasons it tastes better yes so i i don't think the uh i don't think that's an example i'll read the rest of it oh okay food to go so that i'm actually being beneficial to the customer yes i believe that the end customer believes that it's beneficial the end customer if you were going to ask a hundred people of why they buy organic food and you ask them the question do you think that the food that you buy that is organic is either healthier and or tastes better than the food that is non-organic i bet you would get a hundred people saying that they think it is because they think it's how many how many have you asked not going to get a hundred people if you don't ask that many yeah what's the size a hundred people say yes yeah it's a probably every proposition i've got a bit of a brain blast on this whole um they believe it's better for them it's like so that's a if we can convince people that they so let's take the dark souls clone that's like worse but has most of the components and he's like most people happy so they just don't care even if it's stolen everything it's like all we need to do then is change the rhetoric from this is stolen and thus unethical to you'll have a better experience if you play dark souls instead of the clone and if we convince everyone of that we can achieve the goal it's like is that what you you would suggest that we do in order to make ethical concerns i guess realized is focus on telling people that there's a better product even if it's not true even as a fucking lie would that be worth it because of the ethical goal underlying it if so i mean hey you know that could be a solution not one that i'd be particularly fond of that we have to lie to everybody to get people doing ethical consumption but uh hey healthier or and doesn't you know i'm not sure they they could also think that it uh it tastes better that's the reason why they buy organic food many organic all of those reasons yes all those many different reasons yes yeah could be which feels like it's a counter to his general point but i guess it isn't and feel like they're doing a good thing i'm sure those people exist but i don't think that they are the majority i think that they are a i think it's again a five percent because you're right but i don't think that's the majority the perception is what matters the perception is what creates value not the actual product no it's the no it isn't you can't say that after you spend all this time saying the only thing that matters is what people will pay for it yeah um and i'm actually going and doing that this could be semantic now it's perception yeah like like well you know like me if i play a game a million times over and then i declare what its quality is like yeah but that's your perception i'd be like my puts well like yes but like it's informed by and it's like yeah but still you're some perception i'm not doing it because it's my like just like my perception is because i can verify it through all these other other means i feel like perception should be saved more so for when i say what the game is and then rags maybe repeats that later and it's like that's just rags perception because he hasn't played it that could be a a stronger way to use that word it feels weird to say you know someone like analyzes everything down to the individual fucking molecules of a thing and then says well it's your perception that it's those things it's like yeah well it's your perception that oxygen is hydrogen and you know whatever but so right water is hydrogen and oxygen is like could be anything it is my perception but it is also reality yeah i was going to say that kind of fucks that quote up doesn't it that's why people buy supreme more people now care about products made locally reality is perception is reality or within their country i feel generally i feel like people generally buy feel good labeled things organic made locally ethically sourced fair trade etc because they think they're making a difference my entire point is that i think in recent years more people don't seem to care or sorry more people seem to care about how things are made or where they're from i think that you're right in the context that the alternative is the same so like you're buying the same product but this one is more ethically made why would you want to buy an unethical product if you could just simply buy an ethical product instead so well some people choose not to buy it at all that even if there is no alternative some people just say i'll go without mm-hmm happens all the time i mean there's plenty of like a video game might come out and then i hear that you know some bad thing about it or it's from a particular company and i want to support it or whatever and so i'm like well i that i i'm choosing to forgo having the experience of this game that is not going to be replicated by any other game and that's just fine so be it and people that is a choice that i'm making boycotts have been mentioned as well just about uh i was thinking about like the epic store so whenever the game gets snatched up by them it's like well that's off the list of play and then at least from the yeah pretty much yeah really the difference is that people are not willing to spend money or they are not willing to consume an inferior product in the pursuit of this because i agree with your product if it's more ethical yeah because he's saying now that yes the organic thing happens but only when you're moving from something he's basically saying your two choices are the same experience of consumption but the one is unethical so of course you go for the ethical one and it's like well a lot of people will do it whether or not that's the case this is where i mean we've already been over this and you seem to agree with it earlier that's not the only playable factor that this is true people would prefer to do something ethical but most people don't actually want to have that cost them anything the moment that it costs them anything to do something ethical then it stops happening that's just not true charity kills that whole concept yes you're biased in this discussion because you're slipping on bazooka-sized coca-cola instead of real food um wow really annoyed him i think i don't even think there's any value to that argument that like he can't speak on this because he's biased because he drinks coca-cola i was like that was nothing to do with anything but i just i guess i'm amused by how much he's just like what he's very annoyed by that what i didn't know coca-cola was like i don't understand and i don't understand that i was fanta right i thought that was fanta right i have no idea i didn't make a note of which one he was drinking yeah okay organic isn't healthier though i can't i enjoyed that reaction oftentimes it is yeah oftentimes it's healthier well i guess well they he's already addressed that the whole um as long as they believe it that's his that's his point of view is like as long as they would believe that then they would be good whether you think that it's healthier or not i just asked chat and most people think that it is perception becomes reality in the eyes of a consumer that's my point i think i think this guy perception becomes reality then you shouldn't discount you know things that change people's minds are there yeah i don't know how you can say this after all that you've said you're there's just too many instances of a small voice changing everything for an item on the market uh you know snowball effects sort of stuff again yeah i think that people will do something ethical if it if it's free they'll like a tweet so i don't know those people do things that are ethical that are not free at all yeah some people are not willing to really make big sacrifices yes some people are not willing to do that some people are yeah they'll change their flag they'll change their profile picture oh yeah someone said a small voice doesn't change shit on the market mostly like yeah there you go as long as we suck at them cavities and everyone could agree sometimes they do sure to a flat and that i would never want to discourage anyone from pointing out unethical practices you go right ahead and hopefully it'll make a difference but that's about it i get what he's trying to say but it just illustrates that some people prioritize video games as a product and not human expression i know he doesn't think that they're artistic or meaningful but it's clear at least in this context all that matters is product and its function well it depends on the person because for some people they might view AI art and something that was created through AI as a form of human expression in the same way that photography is a form of human expression even though you're using a camera to create the image so i don't necessarily think that you can just you i don't think you can define this and just say like nobody else can see it this way because i think again anybody can see it however way they choose to and i'll play games to see art i do it to have fun well it depends on what people want to do uh some people see them as art some people don't but at the end they are games are odd well wait it's not just that it's the the the poster i imagine is saying that we should probably encourage people to see them more as art than product yeah which i mean yeah generally generally speaking as long as it's not like ever in mind yeah well it's you got to bear in mind the dynamics that are at play there there is a company that's trying to make money and then there's you with your own interests and that there should be a there should be an amount of push and pull there right like it shouldn't you shouldn't just roll over and allow any publisher to get away with any business practice that they want to employ to get more money out of you yeah what i what i have to get at was like it is something that you're buying if you have you know your friend who works all day every day and comes home plays games doesn't really consider the artistry involved in it but doesn't like you know disparage any of it they just want to play and you're like yeah that's totally chill it's fine but if you have someone who's like oh you play your little video game oh pew pew oh cute you just like this is like a told me it's not odd you just said that like do you even know what the industry behind this is with they were just like oh look at you go the day um i know he doesn't think they are artistic or meaningful well i think that there are some games that are and i appreciate those games but if i found out that like a game that i thought was very artistic or meaningful was created with ai that would not have like if i find out like some robot made this i would not immediately dislike that game i still would have gotten the same thing out of the game that it might even make me find more pieces of meaning to think a robot constructed the thing i found meaning in but like i said and i think most people agree it changes your perception of the creator behind it if they were like if they were like a game director you're like oh you did it with ai okay yeah i did before i knew that so uh this is also a post i watched or is some is something that people have highlighted the difference between appreciating skill and appreciating the meaning you get from a piece of art it's like two different fields that are happening at once and can be crossed over a little bit maybe in these conversations i read a little bit i want i want to go over like i'm almost about halfway done with these i encountered this issue this is a response from a person who was uh i guess like a guy with opera i encountered this issue a lot whenever it came to outreach of opera and getting a wider audiences to be curious about opera most don't care it's true what he says is right most consumers do not care about artistry they don't care about the deeper meaning for why something is made does it run does it play well is it fun that's what matters the most what if they classified that as artistry you know why i was obviously artistry game design is artistry it's funny you say that because i think a lot of people will be like no i'm not talking about artistry i just mean does it work yeah like as in is the programming good to see the artistry of the coding of the the artistry exactly is it functional people need to stop thinking about art is like oh well art is like when i see it the art is also the game design and the programming well you can tell in the way that this guy is making this point um that we've created a dichotomy here that i don't think i think this is actually damaging he's like you know a lot of people aren't looking for some deep meaning and it's like whoa whoa whoa it's not it's not like you have to when you play a game and appreciate its artwork you don't have to go as far as saying like what does this say about life like no you can just be like wow look at the way they made that that looks like me i like this i like how these things kind of look like they were you know that's cool i like the way that looks i like this you know that looks i like the sound you know like the soundtrack of this game or something like that not you know yeah exactly you don't have to you don't have to go too deep like chill you know you could appreciate things on you know it's a spectrum like a lot of stuff you can engage with stuff on many levels so is it as almost impossible not to be an artist by this metric you mean when designing a video game game design is the art like i don't know what to say game design is creative it's full of expression and it's full of like literal the construction of objects digitally and voices and soundtracks and music there's all pieces of art in art like in a video game or or just the music like people wanting to create a meaningful competitive experience when i design my bread recipe is that odd gordon ramsey is an artist like when you're when you're making this this this like excellent best of the best food that's odd absolutely sure i mean and and with the film nobody argues that film is an art oh wow i was about to say look through look through history and what you see is the gradual acceptance of different art forms it's like there was a time where film was seen as like gross okay okay sure but like i agree with you guys like but but with the art example it's like you have a main character who's put through a situation they're doing this thing they're doing that thing the only difference with the game is that you i mean you're still operating within a basic framework of like go here and you sit you pass the level and you go to the next level right but like it's you're still being put through a scenario and making choices and there's an artistic sort of end goal right absolutely yeah no i wasn't we weren't saying it to disagree with you saying to essentially support the point in a more interesting way that even once upon a time yeah you know we're more interesting than you that was a good conclusion i took yeah so the discussion between a i and r is frankly isn't something that most people care about uh not only because it doesn't affect them but because they simply aren't aware it keeps returning to this over and over like it it's it's the it's backdoor he'd always retreat into this well most people don't care about this thing and like okay okay we heard you for 17 times i promise you we heard that he's probably even right with with the concept that generally in a very general sense most people don't think about these things right like if we're just saying that um most people who buy cell phones are not thinking about the child labor when they're buying cell phone that is why i buy that um well i mean i think it keeps them off the streets which makes sense yeah i think it's a bit of a bobbing between positions because of the words being used like remember what he went viral for was saying artists don't matter or artists opinions don't matter which there's so many ways to interpret more so of what the fuck has been said there compared to what he could have said apparently which was just the the um the minority opinion doesn't typically affect the consumption of a product which nobody's going to disagree with that if you were to press him on that i yeah like i think you were saying earlier molly like i don't think he actually thinks that but like what he needs to be more clear with what exactly that he's saying like these clips that are going around where like he because these clips of him went viral and then he did this response video and you can sort of sum it up as him basically doubling down on his position saying like i am right you guys are wrong and the truth will always prevail it's just okay so you do think that artists opinions don't matter but like he needs to narrow his focus and specify exactly what it is but he would argue to you that he was clipped out of context but uh i just don't know that it was ever a good quote even with context you know it's it's not a quote that communicates his ideas very well yeah i know i don't think it was ever a good quote even in context there is an element of you know obviously the opinion of the artist determines what it is that people will be buying so no i'd say that it doesn't matter is like it's retarded you know he needs to rephrase his ideas for sure i think yeah know why a painting takes weeks they do see an individual brush strokes of the Monet or the way the pieta was carved what they care about is the result is this bad does this matter maybe maybe not but artists in a different category artists but artists are in a different category artists are in the work or expressions and i also think that Monet was in Monet was an impressionist right like he's the one that did the water lilies after i think world war one or two and a lot of people he was like one of the big guys right for that well people criticized him too people were shitting on him as well he's a big guy yeah he was like you you recognize a lot of his paintings as i said yeah that's just saying the artist yeah what's this in service of pointing out that he would have been criticized well i was about to suggest and i was like wait i'll let him continue my mom was very into art she educated me in a lot of these things myself they copied them yes yes they did towards the end of his life he was actually blind almost blind this way it's where special glasses you know he's still able to make a lot of the art that at least people see now and so yeah there it is legendary artists from france yeah yeah he had like a uh i think he had like a personal relationship with the prime minister at the time and he offered to paint the lilies as a commemoration of the end of the world war and so yeah no i i know what he's talking about and you know even in his time he had the same criticism on him the same thing what same thing not sure what he means exactly um yeah i'm not sure what the criticism is that he's saying is the same here and so uh this inherently stems from the lack of education or limited education in any sense i actually don't think that's the case i think that everybody knows that clothes are made from like a lot of the a lot of the produce that we consume has been just talking about something different than the person that's talking about i think that there's um i think that classes that are like music and art appreciation can open people up to things they wouldn't have otherwise explored and i think that's kind of stuff is important you do want to kind of broaden people's horizons and not just let them just just stick with the same thing over and over especially in more formative years telling them about all the different styles that are to music about all the different you know in history we have all these different kinds of you know art you know you have money and uh gosh what's another artist there's so many i can't even think of any he's probably the only one but you all the different styles the chiara skewer and things like that it's it's important it really is um i remember my art and music classes from grade school learning about people that's where i learned about claud monne um and frida collo and you know all sorts of stuff i wouldn't i might not have learned about that stuff if it wasn't for classes and i and i do sympathize with the idea that yeah like people i wonder how much people discover something like opera in a quote unquote natural way and actually like get engaged with it um i think symphonies are also a thing where how many people it's it's almost um incidentally compartmentalized maybe that's a way to describe it where if you don't but you know it's not something you brush up against it's not you have to kind of go out of your way to experience a symphony in person well you do have to go out of your way to experience a symphony in person you have to buy tickets and you have to go there and you have to you know listen to it and stick around and that's just not going to be an experience that a lot of people even maybe think about doing which is you know it's a shame because it's not like any other musical experience really so it's a waste of time kids can barely do math to begin with is like well that that's just quality of education rather than they're in school for eight hours a day they better they better learn more than one fucking thing i was just gonna say like make math fun then like that's a big problem educations have is uh they make everything fucking boring it's funny because i like maths when i was in school especially when you can see yourself getting better it is when they introduced trigonometry that i was like oh you ruined it oh yeah i had problems with that too that was tough yeah there was like there was a there was that point where math stopped being fun and interesting and i'm like this is work yeah it was like yeah like when disney both star wars you know it's like oh what the fuck's going on what are you doing yeah i was good at algebra and then i had to do like proofs and shit i'm like oh my god like i had such a hard time with that um but what what rags was saying about broadening your horizons absolutely i mean to for a personal example uh specifically within film like when i was a kid i had watched a lot of like cartoons and cartoon movies and then all of a sudden i had watched train spotting perhaps you at a younger age than i should have watched it and i was just like holy fucking shit dude like that blew my mind and it got me thinking of the medium in an entirely different way i'm just like oh cinema can't doesn't have to be just this one thing it could be anything right and then it just got me like thinking about it way more it's probably one of the reasons why i decided to go into it like the you know as like an art form yeah because it just magnified my interest all of a sudden well so if we have uh the original thing of you know the the the thing on pal will drive doesn't doesn't matter what people's opinions on and this guy responds with i think it's a matter of education and then as my goal is talking about actually i think people mostly know about and then uses the example of sweatshops and stuff the reason why i think rags is right for the initial commentary is that um there may be maybe everyone does know about the sweatshops thing as a factoid i don't know how many people know about like the fucking ethics of ai generated material in video games i don't i don't know i feel like that's yeah it's like children working long hours for virtually no pay and terrible condition yeah it's pretty easy to understand why that is very it doesn't take much to convince most people that that's yeah that's probably something that we shouldn't encourage um it's a very relatable made it is produced by workers that are working in conditions that if this was american workers that were american citizens this would not be acceptable how many of you guys are because they're non-american i think it's in a way yes and in a way no in a way yes and that if they are american they're probably gonna be a lot more closer to you and a lot more involved in your life if you are from america right but that's almost because just the natural byproduct of yeah if they're in the same country as you then they're probably much more relatable and closer to you and their existence in your country can impact your life in a more meaningful way right and also there's like the kinship of you know countrymen and things of that nature but if someone is you know in india in some sweatshop in some village that you never think about or know about anyway then then it's like it's not about them not being american it's that they're on the other side of the planet and they don't impact me in any way whatsoever well someone said they dislike the idea of broadening horizons related to going to the opera and it's like what if people just didn't like it it's like that's fine if you went if you gave it a shot and didn't like it horizon broadened doesn't think it's it's most of just encouraging people to experience more sure even if i didn't like something it would get me thinking about it you know like what would have done better like what like under what conditions would i have liked this thing that i didn't like you know sure know that everybody knows that i don't i mean are people not buying produce because of that no i don't think so i i don't think so at all let's talk about mining ore here let's let's put it a lot of this it's about the it's the apathy test um so it's the apathy test is like um if you did go to the grocery store and in the aisle with all of the produce there were two heads of lettuce there all wrapped up for you and one of them was just a normal head of lettuce and the other one said this head of lettuce you know let's say it was ten cents uh cheaper but it said yeah this this was made using you know child slave labor in alabama because no one fucking cares about alabama and it's yeah and it was full of suffering and misery and the children were not paid and they're gonna be enslaved for the rest of their life right i think few people would choose that one over the other one even though it's you know ten cents more but also it's because they're both right there in front of you you just pick up one instead of picking up the other the cost distinction is virtually non-existent so that even if it's sort of a distant thing it sort of hits that you know that level of i do care yeah that means it was summarized as proximity right yeah yeah it's that and if you just if you give people two virtually identical options for something and it's an equal amount of effort for both of them then they will probably side with the one that's more ethical if that's the only difference well that's something that has my goal said earlier but uh he believes that explains the times that people actually do it um meanwhile i think we would be able to decision that people go way further than that yeah a lot of the times they do yeah yeah but mining ore is like it's it's a newer one i think that the produce is better unless you're extremely poor in my case uh and you don't have right certain areas finding of money you don't have anyone to represent you yeah sure most of that they just want to pretend yeah exactly nikey's terrible for child labor still gonna buy those kicks exactly uh because money's everything dude that's all that matters uh to the piggy banks well it's also not just money if for example the the produce that was made by americans was worse and it tasted worse people wouldn't buy it they'd buy the ones that was made by third or second world slaves or workers that are getting paid two dollars an hour so yeah no it's not just money it's money and quality uh let's keep going here so the thing about that i feel like isn't being entertained though is the thing we mentioned earlier about how a lack of funds would change your ethical system slightly as in like i can't try to be more caring of people who are being forced to make it in some other place when i can't even survive myself you know what i mean but that hasn't been entertained much at all but no i don't think that it's education because i think that people know these things and they choose to ignore them how do they know these things they want the thing how do you think they uh how do you think they know them you like more um some people see a flower and they say oh a flower somebody else sees a flower and says oh wow look a bee is floating around it it's giving light to the flower and a flower in it yeah and other people say oh wow look at that people love that the bee it's near the flower and it might sting me yeah of course uh i don't know if it stems from nature or nurture people born more sensitive or desire to create you most people have never been stung by bee but everyone knows that a bee will sting you you have to teach people things you do have to educate people yeah there's almost like um you don't just teach people things so they can draw a deep meaning out of something you almost have to teach them how would you draw a deep meaning out of things or just how to know the thing period how to recognize a thing even exists there's like the sweatshop stuff and and all sorts of things about art and how you engage with art and even knowing that there are different forms of art than what you're used to yeah like you have to education is how people know these things you can't say well you don't have to educate them about that they know about it it's like well that's how they know about it i mean i i think it you know that it's both uh in the studio gilby movie spirited away no face represents many things uh but to me he's always represented consumption more and more and more feed me and that's the danger of being purely a consumer uh one becomes an empty shell one with purpose um i disagree with this the danger of being purely a consumer i think this guy brings up a great point but i don't think that a person who lives a very stressful and difficult life is at danger of being a consumer this is a person whose life has multiple many facets to it and ethically consuming bananas is not one of them that's just simply all there is to it yeah i feel like this is a bit of a remix on some of the more they concerned heavily and in a depth a meaningful way with a lot of things in their life but they're just not with with you know the way they eat their fruit they're just not yeah if you have yeah if you have a really tough life then you think less about the little things no matter what debates like this can go on forever and ever neither side is right or wrong well one side certainly does have the argument of this is what it sure seems like people are doing though don't they that's not an argument that's all i'm trying to say this sure seems like people sure seem to be doing this one thing a whole lot okay just right it's actually making a suitable into an actual condescending argument about people that don't agree with this good viewing consumerism and why people don't agree to get them one becomes an empty shell one with purpose i don't think that people's purpose is or is not about consumerism people can have a purpose that is completely devoid of how they process or produce or consume any product um that'd be the world we live in what we'll head to but it's always be it will say as much as i agree with that that you you can it could just be like they don't have to care but it's like but if you know you're gonna want them to every time if they if they just influences how they behave and what they do yeah they could be like you know that that analogy out of the the friend that just plays games indefinitely believe if you came home and played uh ray shadow legends for example we'd be like whoa man like i know you don't care but don't play that play play like a fucking real game like you could be like dude i don't care you like no no no i get it i get what you're saying but like just just go like mong out on a game that's way better than that i'm just saying the artist and i think like really this guy's point is is really that the first paragraph right is he's saying that like you know as much as we want people to care about opera people don't care about opera and that's all there is to it all the games you have in play up warcraft or handcrafted by that's not all there is to it like so why do people why do some people care about it and some people don't wait if you're if you're wanting to expand opera like i i don't think that you would just be like well some people care about some people don't and that's just how it is like well shit don't try to change anything ever yeah as with every sector and everything related to everything there's a way you try to understand what gets people interested and then you try to uh you know get weird out essentially yeah i don't get this attitude it's it's like bizarre to me like well it's just the way it is moving on but the wider world you spat on your talent hard work and assumed their irrelevance even though it's these artists who craft the world that you and your viewers get lost in worlds that ai could not conjure up by itself true um the thing is what you said is somewhat ironic that people buying the product often judge it based on how it looks opinions aren't irrelevant our opinion experiences and lives and influence uh and lives often influence the world to enjoy that's right uh that's very true and so and i responded back to this and i said this right uh i said you're absolutely right uh but the value of those things exist because people like me say it does the reason why world of warcraft is massively not necessarily is not because artists made it it's because people bought it they would have never made the almost get into like a chicken and the egg so that's what's gotta be evoked by the exact same thing it's like well which one comes first you know you're not successful because you made a thing good it's successful because people liked it you're like people bought the thing that you made it almost like we're splitting it up well imagine i said it's not because people liked it it's because people paid for it and this one said no it's not because people paid for it it's because you received the money for it you'd be like what are you doing it's like why you split it up like this i was like well what is the root cause burning crusade if people didn't buy the game that's the truth is that the customer drives the production and the customer creates the value customer drives production and creates value sort of the thing about it is we've talked about a million times over like there are things that didn't even get released for X amount of time and it's like what doesn't have value until it's released like no but if you're talking strictly of a market value then i guess you have to be right because yeah this is his problem he needs to be more specific because that's why everyone keeps assuming the worst of what he's saying yeah he's a he's a very bad communicator for a streamer on this topic sure this is there to put something out there but it's up to the customer to decide whether it's worth buying or worth looking at or not it's a buyer's market what you just said is dumb as fuck what about it is dumb i think a lot of the artists on twitter get mad because they don't like the idea that their hard work isn't important to the people playing does it work is it fun yes then they'll care if not before it does matter but it matters because people like it if people didn't like it then it wouldn't matter i just can't wait to make people ai and take jobs away from gondoliers they'll never hear about how bad ai is for everyone i'm just gonna preface by saying that i understand that ai as a tool is useful and be can utilize but it can be utilized by artists to create better art but to equate art as value for just being a product is like the argument that people made a while ago about games as a product versus a service i'm not sure i'm understanding what you mean by that but i'll go ahead and i'll talk about this so art fundamentally is subjectively valued why is it that the Mona Lisa is worth so much money there's there's not really a way that you can discern how much money this painting is worth without looking at its subjective value and that's the same with any painting or any type of art that's the beauty of art is that it serves no intrinsic purpose but the subjective value that it has in the hearts and minds of is it is substantial if it's good right if people like it but what i'm saying is that just because you perceive a value in something doesn't mean that it has intrinsic value in a market like for example intrinsic value in a market well i mean but i'm not even i'm if you perceive something that's having value that can influence the market if you like well and then i'll pay that much for it right yeah that's kind of interesting right because you could be like a billion billion people like the thing that's what gave it value not your individual interest and it's like but what if that individual paid the rights owner more than that billion people paid in terms of yeah in the sense that you could look at any of the most expensive paintings of all time it's like well that value was defined by one person who was willing to pay that much money for it like me me personally i have no impact on how much um the Mona Lisa's worth yeah because i'm not even in any way shape or form in the realm of people who would be in a position to buy it but you could be maybe if one day you make enough money and you go out there and you buy it i don't think it's even like available for purchase is it like that's where's the money Lisa kept is that the uh oh you make me think a glass onion don't do that well i know when you think of the Mona Lisa right a little bit well the idea of is it for sale can you just like borrow it and put it in your house is like no the louis isn't going to let you fucking do that you can't just have the Mona Lisa put it in your house the louis isn't it yeah this is yeah i just i imagine i imagine it would never be sold which is kind of an interesting one because at that point it's it's it's effectively priceless um and that i imagine you never ever ever ever be sold it's now found like it's you know i'm like yeah basically that there's not really it would i would be i would wonder how much money you would have to offer to be able to buy it and just keep it for yourself yeah i feel like it it might actually be that there's no price yeah probably i don't know how many of you guys have things that have sentimental value but nobody would buy them you have pictures that you made whenever you were a kid or something like that he's almost there now he's starting to recognize the whole personal value but like it's sentimental would obviously be different than appreciating a thing for the skill and an artistry that went into it which is also different than what everyone wants and feels would be worth paying for it on the market these are all different values and when you and when you summarize your position as you opinion doesn't matter and the thing that you think has value doesn't unless everyone says it does they have distinctive impressions on people as statements that aren't as you know fair or interesting as the ones he's making here and you know like some fucking thing that you had whenever you're growing up and like this to you is worth a lot but to anybody else it's not worth anything so i think that we all have like it's it's such a personal example we all know that this is the case is we all know that this is true that's the point i'm making that it's priceless it's about taking jobs away from people in the industry though if what you said about robots taking over the future is true should artists just pack it in no more jobs do people still get portraits done even though we have cameras do people still buy only fans even i was gonna say that i wouldn't apply those two different things those two different mediums i didn't know you can google big i would value a portrait of me far more than i would value a photograph of me also what was the second word about boobs why do people do uh only fans if you can just get big boob well i do actually as much as i think it's silly there are there are answers to that question yes there are we'll still get portraits done even though we have cameras do people still buy only fans even though you can google big boob yeah i mean there's a lot of answers to that question in fact oh yeah like what just one boob what boob what singular only one boob please note one large none of this pair of boob shit two medium-sized boobs or one large boob one big boob please it's tidier i would like big boob people still like handmade clothes even though you can get it printed from a fucking third world sweatshop yes so basically uh neuroscience that's so interesting because it sounds like you say that the uh at least in that comparison the um the ai work is like the unethical one you know is a completely ai-generated uh vtuber that was created by a guy named vedal and neuroscience has actually become so popular that it was the top female streamer which is actually a guy which is you know like you know guys you know men we just can't we just can't stop winning and feminism dead once again that is kind of funny that matter better at being women it was like when uh who's the jenner who what's her name now katelyn jenner when she won like woman of the year and we had all those jokes about a man becomes a men are even better than than at being women than women are yeah it was actually the most popular streamer for like a week or a month uh recently beating out all of the other real girls or real fake girls that are real women all of them uh were beat out wait so oh it beat out not only women but also the fake women that women were pretending to be other women as in vtuber women behind women he basically what he's saying is there's a guy who created a woman that was so good it beat out all women even the women who made women damn by neurosama and by someone said beating out is like he means the highest viewership i think is what that means beating out so i think that you have an example of that being being the case so like what you're talking about is like if ai takes away a job from a content creator what do you think that my position is on that monday let's be real i'm just saying like it's pretty fucking defeating i actually don't know as a guy about yeah well i i i feel like what he's just said gives you his answer and either no i disagree i think he's made clear what his answer is he's saying that that's natural in the industry that's what happens and that you need to you know evolve basically adapt or die uh what i guess i mean in the subject of automation right that was what happened in manufacturing automation meant yeah manufacturing especially in like western countries got pretty decimated and it's like okay well now what are they supposed to do you know what's what's uh what's next well so and and what i i found that argument compelling the whole like uh you know why the resistance of the next generation shouldn't be met with like fear of losing jobs and it's like okay but this is the balance i suppose it's that you shouldn't rush it we need to soften the blow of the industry's destruction on jobs right we need to transition this stuff slowly yeah exactly we need to make opportunity for people to to move into different sectors as well well i guess you're fucked like good luck yeah that's the thing i would rather we have that perspective than the you you fucking get used to it buddy it's like you know we could try to help about you like what are they supposed to do well especially when especially when you know if you work in a field for a long time and then you become very specialized and skilled in that field and then you're done it's like well i mean you're hardly gonna be able to build up the skills to be competitive in the next field that you need to move into with like no assistance or any good you know any help whatsoever like the it was like the learn to code thing right oh yeah cool bro but like that takes time to develop those controls you can't just like that's very that's just not very helpful degree in art that a i art is coming out and potentially taking away job offers that could be offered to me like should i just switch careers no you should embrace it completely and you should look at how to use it to augment your skills you have the perfect to use and leverage these skills with this new technology to get a better job than probably you could have gotten 10 years ago i suppose the problem there is that what if you're dealing with someone who fundamentally considers it unethical what are they supposed to do then it's like we'll change your ethical system i guess or of course what if you don't want to make it that way what if you want to do it the the the question away the normal way of just not using those tools at all i guess it's just like oh well too bad but i mean that doesn't seem like a great it's an answer it's just yeah it doesn't really solve many problems it only just answers the question well it especially doesn't solve the problem of what if somebody places an immense amount of value in the process of doing it themselves of going from you know uh like pencil and paper all the way to creating something without doing any like without any use of ai tools in that process at all it's just like oh too bad like sucks for you then i guess copy bake it out like or or at the very least you can't expect to do it professionally that doesn't seem like a great solution i don't think that you should view it that way i don't i think that that's the defeatist mindset like i ai art is a tool i feel like figure out how to use it as a pretty defeatist yeah depending on who you're talking to well it also depends on how you view it all if if you if you think this is encroaching upon creativity and destroying industries that someone tells you yeah get used to it how fucking sad is that jesus or i guess it would be like why would you expect someone to accept that answer i'm just like yeah well that thing you want ain't gonna happen so like tough shit like do you think that they'll go like oh well fuck you've convinced me i give up i can't give up on on the position that i hold it doesn't work like that well yeah you're only gonna be like completely in line with this if you already agree with him which funnily enough i'm i'm aligned in certain ways i just feel like it lacks there's so many holes in this in terms of like a appeal trying to soften what the effects of this will be on a actively highly developed civilization because that's what that's what ai's gonna do it's gonna it's it's already swamping loads of different industries that's gonna take over and loads of different scary ways that we won't be able to even figure out like it'll be done well before we even know about it something different i say that as if it isn't happening literally right now just like you know it hasn't happened yet i'm sure self checkouts are huge like most places have like 30 fucking checkout lines and three of them are open everywhere and whenever i was a kid 15 of them were open well what happened to those 12 people well one of them is working at the self checkout area and the other 11 aren't working at the store anymore so there's definitely that um candle makers yeah candle makers and one thing that i've known as people doing at the grocery stores are the people who go around and fill up the tubs full of like the people put in their orders for like groceries online and then people at the store put it all into like boxes and stuff and then you come and pick it up or sometimes it's even delivered so i guess that's a thing that's how i guess the thing is like all of this because of course if you point to like self service which yeah i mean basically like any grocery store or retail place has got self-serve checkouts at this point when it used to be that you had to have people operating into the checkouts and that potentially means lost jobs um i mean the solution has to be where you got it you got to find jobs to replace those jobs right you can't how is it going to be sustainable if you've just got oh yeah 10 gobs 10 jobs get lost and then one job gets created like are you going to end up at a place where there are people who are just permanently unemployable because that's maybe though yeah i don't know like but then i put it feels like again it's already moving out of the like the subject of ai into a much uh broader sort of our subject light bulbs while i'm trying to think about examples that are contemporary that we all understand travel agents that's a really great example the taxi industry has totally changed with uber totally died yeah taxi is not a great example no it is it goes about dying because if it was gradually transferred over and taxi drivers can become uber drivers obviously there's going to be damage done but i actually think that's a good example of an industry that started with the gap in the market and that's what he's saying then yes i thought he was saying something different i don't i can't say i know exactly what he's saying here but i assumed what i would want to advocate for is that we do it gradually i wouldn't want to say that ubers have to stop and not exist because it'll kill taxis i would rather we incorporate and smoothly transition over to that being the dominant because it just seems to be a more effective service get the taxi drivers into being uber drivers that sort of thing um i just you know i wouldn't instead i wouldn't want to say it as simply as you know how we used to have taxis now we have ubers there we go like it would be like that that's not i don't know if that's an interesting analysis compared to what you could say telephone i'm sure there's a lot of taxi drivers who fucking hate uber oh no yeah yeah i mean there's a lot of things where like in new york they fought to keep uber out of like new york i think so i seem to remember that yeah probably that rings the bell well it where i am in vancouver it was the same thing i remember taxi drivers were fucking pissed yeah it makes sense you need it to be transitioned slowly so that people can adapt in time because if you if it happens all at once it can do serious damage but these maps yeah the people that make maps that's a great fucking example yes exactly if a i art can replace uh uh boris philgeos or uh chris foss's art style what the focus is the point of warning about principles design elements of art like i don't know man it depends on how you use it like i think that if you if you understand things like that you can perfect tools to make those tools more precise and more appealing uh this doesn't negate the opinions of those who made it this is like saying that otk network or your stream only has value because we not you enjoy it you own otk forget you dude who cares what you think people are just totally watching your streams for your gaming only and not your opinion and viewpoint certain matters you and i both know that's nonsense it may be a good game but it's not impressive he's talking about powell world i said you're right again if no one watched my stream it would have no value who would sponsor a streamer who has no views i mean how much would ads make again it's still yeah it's just it's that's economic value which i still feel like isn't captured fully by this but um i get what he's saying compared to personal value or artistic value but again well i mean artistic value from the point of view of many people or from from yourself you know there's many values but what is like it's i guess because it's funny it's like i mean what what does it mean when for instance a company is said to be overvalued like what does that mean when whatever their valuation is according to the market doesn't seem to correlate with what would be seen as like traditional markers of value um like what does it mean and you know what what happens if like let you know i guess the vincent van goes easy example right he painted he didn't really get much attention and then people found out about it and then his paintings became you know much more expensive because everybody starts to know who he was it's like so it would be that the painting had no value until like somebody noticed it and then all of a sudden it's like it's got dramatic value that that would be the way that it would be categorized in his world which right you might even make it simpler as it didn't have value until it had value and then you'd be like can you be more specific it's like it didn't have someone valuing it until it had someone valuing it and you're like oh that's awfully restrictive and it's like yep that's all i meant you're like oh okay that does seem to be it too well it's and it's not what everyone's mad about it's uh yeah the mad about the implications and the um almost the subtext it gets gets to people as well because it's the word values the word matters these words um you know they do stuff and how could i get subscribers some things market value versus its personal value are two different things and so this is the last point that he makes in a dam yeah i'll probably have to respond to this dam and um uh perhaps it's different some perspective here what we value more sounds like you're a slave to your viewers and sponsors uh than my dude not a slave but a servant and i don't think that's a bad thing but i know you stream because you love it and value it for yourself and you couldn't think of doing that you know you can hit pause two rags if you just talking i can't hear you what you said i was gonna didn't quite uh it's like a what if you expand on that i didn't quite know what he means by like not a slave but a servant um i mean yeah he could have expanded on it but i assume it just means the guess but i'm not even sure if my guess would be close to what he means a servant willingly does services for a price right like they're compensated meanwhile slave is like they have no choice in anything like so a slave in this sense would be like i don't want to stream but i we're forcing you to yeah or that you can't express any opinions that any of your chat would not be happy with or you can't play any games that aren't going to be very popular i think that would be closer to like the slave level but that has my goal i mean he gets himself in trouble so much he can't be considered as someone who doesn't uh go against the grain here in there i i don't know i i it's a fair point you could have elaborated a little bit on that anything else uh so i think you're missing my point i'm making sure are because i value it i make tutorials on how to make 3d art because i genuinely enjoy doing it even if i get minimal views i don't care good then do it i i develop rust because i genuinely enjoy the art i make for it and developers i have around me are like family the opinion on developing a game matters to me for me if no one watched your stream it doesn't mean that it has no intrinsic value i think that it does and i actually think that this stream never had any intrinsic value i think that the value for a stream was always subjective and something having subject you see the words they're all tangled up if you look at their last sentence they say unless you're framing it all through the lens of money then that's a shame and i think if asman had read that already he would have been like no not a shame reality and then they'd be like yeah a sad reality to be like no just reality because that's how value works in the but you know what i mean like it's like oh i feel like the two positions are not recognizing each other very well and that yet they use the same words to describe the same uh situation yeah like earlier he said if no one watched my stream it would have no value and then he said value is subjective there's like but if people are what if the value is based off of the people who are watching it then that's subjective he seemed to pretty clearly mean monetary value with regards to his own right because immediately after that well what who would sponsor a stream with zero viewers how many ads would people watch right so like he was clearly i think in that case talking pretty exclusively about the the literal monetary value of that stream right and i think in that case if you're streaming to zero people what is the monetary value of that stream yeah it's going to be zero because you get no subs you get no ads you get you know which is interesting as to what rag said in terms of that wouldn't be subjective at that point right like it wouldn't be subjective no like like there's so much i don't know all these terms are being thrown around repeatedly and they seem to have different meanings every time he says them right and maybe it's because he's reading them and and other people are saying oh but it has no value right and they're saying oh so you're saying that uh it has no personal value has no you know because on them well so why he this is why the words are getting tangled because uh take for example someone's saying we're gonna supply ads to a youtuber and uh this one has 10,000 average viewers, this one has 20, this one has 30, it's like we're going with the 30 and it's like that value of their viewers has translated into literal units so they gives them value on a screen to like someone deciding something like that and he would say yes that is objective but that the people watching it and liking it is the subjective part and so describing it wholly as subjective value can get very confusing if we're talking about the money markets or the economic markets um but again it's just like that's that's that seems to be what we have learned overall is that this is entirely just miscommunication which does often end up being the cause of pretty much everything that goes wrong at the end of that yeah well definitely a lot of it yeah objective value doesn't make it inferior or worse but it does make it different and not the same as something that has intrinsic value unless you're framing it through all through the lens of money that does have intrinsic value yes and i want to actually sorry i still don't know what he the way that he phrases that hello go on rags yeah a drop but you're good now is he is is he oh maybe not i haven't heard a word from him i spoke too soon so we hello rags is rags rip in peace rip in pepperoni uh i'm waiting for the f for go on give me the bottom can we get an f in the chat for rags well or x's if you doubt his death f so let's see oh i see a couple x's but mostly f's i think we think this is legitimate death you gotta give the x's a little more time they're coming in they didn't know x was an option oh it's games more just typing x over and over and every one of them counts i you know what we're just gonna carry on should we refer back to this and talk about this again um the reason why i said a lot of these things i was talking about this in the context of going to market with a video game i wasn't talking about art as a whole i wasn't talking about how an individual perceives art how could i possibly tell somebody what has value to them that's insane i'm talking explicitly and you know you'd know this if you saw more than a minute and a half of the which we have whoo clip that i'm talking about why people buy or don't buy a game i'm talking about how consumers value games how consumers consume content what values those people have it doesn't really have a lot to do with how he went to do made i know that i'm right so much that it doesn't even bother me when it doesn't even bother me whenever people get mad i view them as just people that are unwilling or i would say even with all this clarification i mostly agree with them but i would still take issue with the idea of like a discouragement on people raising all of these issues in the hopes of doing something to the game ultimately and and suggesting through stats like they're not making any difference are you it's like well no they still can they still may and they have in the past a lot of things can happen and it's crazy what happens when you appeal to uh like the creators behind the thing that can have some huge difference or unable to see the truth i'm not mad at any of these comments this like obviously i've talked about it for a long time i clearly care about them but this isn't something that's going to make me unhappy or compromise me emotionally if that makes sense uh what you're wrong about is how you said the game made doesn't matter but it does it may not matter to you or a bunch of people but it sure does to a lot of other people who are different um it doesn't matter in a functional sense in terms that it will create an effect on the video game whenever i say it doesn't matter what i'm real what i'm not only might it what i but the judging from the stats will never know how much effect it actually has had on it one other thing you can never know on that thing because it's thinking about you know futures that don't exist but yeah i mean you can never know for sure all right hello i'm really saying is that it doesn't matter in the context of it selling well or not selling well of course it matters to you but it doesn't matter in the sense of it selling well in the market um a bunch of sales can be driven because of a notable artist that worked in a certain product i was definitely the case for me in a bunch of games that i said to buy and why is that artist notable and you will see that your reasoning will come back around to the fact that that artist creates value that resonates with people such as yourself because people like their work exactly but that's that's not what he was saying earlier yeah this one makes it complicated now because it's like so my investment in the art history of an individual makes me decide to buy a thing where i otherwise wouldn't have would be an example of if anything of the artist having value this is a he's very clearly contradicting what he says earlier because he's saying oh well the artist has no value and if you have an artist you know they don't matter they're not going to actually push the uh the the product in the end if you have a great artist no one's going to buy that game because of the great artist now he's saying actually you know if you have a great artist people are totally going to buy the game because they love that artist um so i'm not even sure he knows what he thinks on this one quite frankly yeah i think with this this this this is i think you should have gone with this one you should have just said like yeah this can happen this is another sort of minor exception where uh the success of a thing could be driven by an artist but then again people will be like we've got some great examples of an artist almost defining the like the the big selling point of it that we went over this before was that this stream when we mentioned like directors and was that the previous stream yeah no i'm pretty sure i mentioned it this time okay it's a good old Scorsese or Shyamalan we could celebrate that last time yeah we talked about that last time as well i know the lines between yesterday and today are very blurry yes we are we are nearing we got 15 minutes of video left oh yes it's a symbiotic relationship a big part of game sales like doom eternal for example were driven because of mc gordon the composer that worked on it and why did people buy it because of mc gordon why did that happen marty odonal is another one made to halo music for many years well that's actually not a good example because marty odonal did make another game and even though he was doing it and he's a well-liked composer that game didn't sell so well which game was that just because uh i think it was called golem not lord of ring golem not lord of ring golem but a different one i think it was like a g-art game and i don't yeah i know when it was going to be halo it's a lord of ring golem yeah is that golem as in lord of the rings golem like another no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no well like a golem you know g-o-l-e-m oh golem okay yeah all right is it do you pronounce it yeah it's it's pronounced a bit differently yeah yeah wait so like the golems that batman sits on how do you pronounce them i've i think i've heard it pronounce both that's like yeah that's i would say that's a gargoyle i think i've heard a gargoyle oh wait fuck g-o-l-e it's during my braid braid melty yeah it's so golem is spelled with two l's i think golem is one l yeah it is i think it's from an old heber word oh my god i'm learning something new every day i thought i thought you just they were just called golems as well not golems man i feel like i've talked for so long and that's never come up that's just i don't think it's ever i don't think it's ever come up i always just thought my god my goodness uh okay well anyway marty o donnell he was uh he did the music for a game called golem and i don't believe it sold super well even though marty o donnell might be yeah i'd say i'd say he definitely fits into the category of one of the most well-known video game composers and that's i guess it's it's like just because of course i think so it seems like his argument is the reason why people care about these artists and their opinions is because they made good stuff in the past basically um and then his words would be like well they made stuff that was of uh of value in the um of of like economic value in the uh in the past like that doesn't necessarily that doesn't necessarily yield anything in terms of like future results or like you know i mean it's it's uh i'm not sure why you'd be relying on this argument too much the main thing to take away is that there's plenty of films he's made that people haven't watched much of main thing to take away is marty o donnell did the music for lord ring golem which is fucking crazy oh we didn't i can't believe it golem man it wasn't very notable compared to halo i would say the music in ordering golem but you know some artists have a rise some artists have a fall that's it if he says it yeah consumer value yes because they love his word so you're saying that people buy it because they perceive value is that what you're saying i don't really understand what you mean with perceived value okay um the perceived value is that people think that his art is good and the reason why people think that his art is good is why his art is selling that's why is that this is this is a i mean again at this point it's just like so the art being good is important compared to people believing it's good and it's like no believing it's good is all the matters is like even though they believe it's good because it's good it's just like oh fuck everyone's like yeah one of the reasons behind these beliefs those are important too of course so the original the original argument he made was something along i don't remember exactly um or he was being accused of um artists's opinions don't matter anymore right uh that was the original tweet in regards to the economic value of a of a piece even though even with those specific environmental things you could still have Montesco says he say that everyone needs to see this new film that's coming out and that could make a huge difference in its economic value so in this case this argument he's making actually doesn't matter right because we're not talking about the artist's opinion we're talking about you know the artists a resume essentially right like this is actually an actual ability non non non argument here because it has nothing to do with you know if we're talking marty o'Donnell his opinion isn't what's doing it here right like he's not being like oh this game's a piece of shit you shouldn't buy it and it's affecting the market value this is just a question of whether or not that musician has that work it's the past work that's informing it not necessarily their opinion like you said right so like this is this argument so it's not having here is meaningless to the original content yeah i get what you mean actually though i will say something i was just thinking about is like it's worth remembering as well that like the the amount that you pay for like a game that you're gonna play is based on like anticipated value that it has to you non you can buy a game and then be like oh fuck that sucks i wish i didn't pay 60 bucks for this ship you know and it's like well then what is its value to you now is it worth the 60 dollars that you paid for it is it you know or do you believe that it's worth less than that or alternatively is it worth tremendously more than the 60 dollars that you paid for it if you played it you're like holy shit this game is amazing well he seems to be acknowledging that marty o'Donnell and mc gordon are talented composers and a and a degree an amount of the sales of each of their respective game franchises is due to their talent but then like if you were to give the task of creating the halo or doom score to an ai it wouldn't be able to do it well it's but i mean i think he would probably well i mean that's something even though it contradicts his argument earlier talking about people who will buy a game because an artist that worked on it really liked it it's like well yeah what happens if it's like okay i i guess it's well neither of these examples are gonna look we're in hypothetical world because i believe mc gordon isn't working on the next doom or ever working again yeah he never will obviously no he had a he had a bad experience on eternal i think yeah yeah uh but the point being that you know like i don't know doom 3 comes out and then you find out it's like oh well mc gordon would have been working on it but that he's not because they decided that they were going to use an ai for this one you know like that fact in and of itself especially if you were particularly invested in the artist you know like as he's pointing out in this example you like them because of the value that that artist created it's like well i mean fuck what do you think's gonna happen in next time around it's like oh we got an ai that's approximating their work but that artist didn't work on it and they didn't make anything from it they're not gonna make anything from a purchase of it i mean obviously that could have a tremendous influence on it and he would have to acknowledge that that is the case because he's pointing to people buying it because they like what they did before and presumably want to support that creator well here's the thing yeah when um when what was it secret invasion came out in those uh opening credits you know they were the ai-generated ones and instantly set a lot of people against the show just from that alone that was said like an hour ago right gosh oh that's how i'm pointing out the ai voice for like Darth Vader the ai voice for oh yeah well yeah so what i was gonna say is like if you were on who wants to be a millionaire and they say to you what determines the economic value of a product and they say a how the product was made b how good the product actually is c what people believe about the product or d what the artist that created it say about the product i'd be like well i guess i'm going with c like if i guess what they believe however if you wanted like the what's the correct answer i'd be like well c but what in form c it's like well a b and d and lots of other things to be honest with you like people's awareness of all kinds of different kinds of things will have massive effects on the economic value because it it will inform and change what people believe what people perceive yeah yes right and i feel like that's that's it good summer yeah people don't people don't often just believe things in a complete and total vacuum right normally they get that information from something right and it's made by the customer is arts worth it yes exactly and i would argue that if the if the if there was a an ai tool that is equivalent in creating music or creating some form of gameplay that people viewed on the same level as mc gordon people would buy the game for that reason as well and i can use a does believe that people would um that might not have an impact if they found out it's like yeah well maybe you can see it would but the um the ultimately most people just want the great music um yeah maybe maybe i suppose what's interesting about that is that um and this this is like a good thing and a bad thing you know like if two great movies come out but one of them is made by scorsese you'd be like well i know which one i've chosen that's what most people probably say because it's like yeah well he's attached to it you're like so i know i feel more reassured as to what i'm getting i guess or that i get to celebrate him more and i i would like to do that because i have so much respect for him that's that's sort of there's a couple of elements to come with knowing there's a human author that we talked about as well just um yeah more connected to it i suppose soft example for that with unreal five i feel like people hear that a game is made in unreal five and they're like oh my god it's gonna be so good and i think that people's behavior from that is an example for what my what i'm trying to say use hard examples i think that's the best example i can do not really even if people didn't buy it his music would still be good if a tree falls in the forest did it make a sound yes yes yeah sound waves exist independent of observers well so this is where this is something i wish he hadn't said because it really flies in the face of everything else he just said why wasn't his answer here yeah personal value artistic value that's different than the market value and i'd be like i understand that but instead he said does it if people aren't buying it could it really considered be considered good it's like of course absolutely and i think asmongold would say yes to that you have to know that this is the case there's gonna be one game or one movie or one show that he likes that wasn't successful well what about i mean just we have a term for it we have hidden gems like barely yeah a lot of like a really great game or song or band or whatever that not a lot of people know about it gets over a lot better than people discover it yeah it feels like he's kind of glomming onto that to make it trying to make his argument more sound by not agreeing to i i just i think this is a misstep because i i feel like i understood his argument right before he said this and i i feel like i knew what his response should have been to this now now it's like uh i i feel like we're back in murky yeah i'm confused again where i don't understand what's going on we talked about before but blade runner and the thing right it's like well i guess they're not good it's like no they no they're really good it's just the like wrong place wrong time you know they were good before they got more acclaim yeah it's not like a claim that it gets is the that yeah that's that's that's silly and that's the problem with this answer is that if he's understanding this person's use of the word good to mean economically successful then you should have read the sentence says if people didn't make it economically successful it would still they didn't do that then it would still be economically successful and he'd say oh that doesn't make sense if we're talking about market value but instead he said if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound that's an odd one you go to uh you know a a fucking christian uh revival and you start playing mc gordon's doom soundtrack bro you're gonna have some holy water thrown on you that doesn't have anything to do with anything yeah it doesn't fit the taste of that you know that that venue they would do the same thing if you went to a symphony and you started playing that that's not really what people are there for yeah that was a good point yeah like you're about to get an exorcism what are you doing imagine you want to be a sculptor so you go to a success for sculptor's house and you make molds of all their sculptures sculptures without their permission then you use those molds to make minor modifications to them and then create new art pieces this is literally what ai software is well isn't this what people would do is they would see sculptures and then they would make theirs like the ones that they saw that still feels significantly different than making a mold of someone's sculpture and then recreating the sculpture with that mold that as opposed to looking at someone's sculpture and trying to recreate it yeah in the way that i recreate it is it's fully my own from the ground up the only yeah i just it's just the inspiration is what ties them together not like a literal i think we may have talked about it but if you're a sculptor and you're like teaching someone and they're gradually getting better and better and then they show you their final ultimate piece and you're like fucking hell you've done it that's incredible i'm so proud of you versus well i did it but it was it was from your mold they'd be like oh um i look familiar yeah you'd be like well maybe maybe we can try and get you there with you instead of the mold you know i feel like that's what people do a warehouse full of molds of other people's work created without their permission i don't think that somebody has full permission on how something is consumed once they release it to the public once you release your well they have copy right expression into the public when they can well they can also change people's perception of it with their commentary this happens all the time right but that's the thing is he's talking about art versus art well if he's talking about death of the author i agree with him right yeah exactly but but he's not talking well rather that's not the subject he's talking about that but but the subject is you know fair use as an argument which is not the same thing at all yeah this is talking about part of that ownership is no longer yours i almost feel like he's talking about spiritual ownership like the you've now left it into the world and so you can't control it like how like sort of like fandoms in a sense are like communities can take they sort of take some ownership over the thing that they're fans of look at an official sense but in like a spiritual sense you know how uh uh george releases star wars and it has han shui agrido that he's like no no no no no no after it's released he's like no this this is what i meant it's like too late george it's it's beyond your control now i know you're george but that just means we're extra disappointed you no longer have full autonomy and control of how people will respond to that everybody's mad at maybe that's interesting the bot the bot says your message is too long so it's been like deleted for a while now you know i his bot i guess the bot if the bot all right okay if your message is too long it automatically deletes it i mean that can make some sense it's probably one of the basic sort of spam protection things i suppose so because i express myself in a certain way and then those people are talking about it that's what happens whenever you express and you put something out into the public the art does not store the appeals work stable diffusion it can't even contain uh everyone's data in pure form sure uh then you use this multiple modifications okay i have a company trained to model from scratch with no base layer like stable diffusion and they have consent from the contributors there would not be an uproar this is why people are mad the artists are being molded and copied without consent or compensation okay i don't find it to be a moral difference whenever an ai tool does it then whenever a person copies it or traces it i don't view that to be a tremendous moral difference he said it don't think of it as i'm being in tracing is different than just taking it that's different than taking inspiration from a thing i also want to highlight he said i don't see a moral difference and then he said i don't see a tremendous moral difference those two are very different positions yeah this is a word that if i was there i'd be like yeah the term tremendous it's just like do you think there's a difference fundamentally do you think they're the same like i would just ask that of him can you explain to me racing is like you know like it's i mean yeah like i'm not sure why he's comparing it to racing yeah that's another one it seems like the one is often the the idea of like inspiration of taking inspiration from different art styles or different techniques compared to like tracing i don't think that's the one that you would want to go with for this uh for this point i can kind of see the the tracing thing because like the digital equivalent of that is sort of like the sort of replicating the distribution of pixels based on colors i'm there's a scale and it's so hard to pick the line because i i get what you're saying completely there's so much the level of artistry seems to be like where everyone's trying to decide like i that i define this is the place where the last of artistry exists any further than this and you've gone into goopy non-artist land right it's really difficult though to figure it out um definitively i you think that it is don't ask questions and consume product then get excited for next product this is what people are criticizing because they're saying that i am advocating for this behavior i am not advocating for this behavior i am acknowledging that it is the norm this is the those are different those are different things mate i'm trying to think of the norm is don't ask questions just consume product and then get excited for next product probably in regards to maybe he's more right than he realizes because like my issue is that he almost discourages people from you know aggressively highlighting the issues they take with the thing whether or not it'll make a difference to the consumption of a thing is like yeah but i think we should encourage that though even if it makes no difference because it's the right thing to do you are like asmongold is observing trends like people will buy this dumb thing whatever it is like the nerd crew like the satirical show that they do is just making a sort of similar observation like people will go in droves to see the new michael bay movie that's like dog shit you know and it's just like oh that did really well in the box office let's make another one like on the part of the studio's you know and then the cycle just continues like on that level i can i kind of get it and to get people to care about why a game is the way that it is this is not people's fight they don't care about that these are yeah i just agree with that like the plenty that you don't even know how many people will care about whatever issue you're about to highlight is you actually you can't really know and i just don't like the discouraging element of it imagine you found out like that you that they stole some stuff and then you're like i guess normal care it's like make people aware of it it's all right you've got a big voice you have the potential to change a lot of minds and if you change a lot of minds that's going to have effects on the market so i feel like of all the people who should have this mindset you could be among the least of them someone said you can from previous data lol yeah we can prove that people will care because we've had several instances of pro products or entire channels being of absolutely obliterated by individual voices highlighting ethical issues what do you mean by that like yeah of course we we would encourage people to do it more but even if we had full data to tell us that you make zero impact why would we encourage people to just give up then it's like no keep going yeah i would also say that you can't know when we have new issues like this is relatively new as much as for an internet person this has been everywhere for some months and years this is still new to a lot of people who've never even heard of like the concept so you never know what effect it'll have and we'll get new issues all the time it's just how especially with technology fucking racing forward average people with extremely complex lives who have a finite amount of energy to devote to different things and big surprise they're not going to be devoting it to getting mad about a fucking video game it might not be about getting mad as much as they go say for example critical drinker makes we talked about this with the back with the yms stuff like a lot of people will go to trick or drinker because they don't have time to properly like assess whether or not a film is worth their time based on actors writers and companies and stuff so they work on his recommendations drinker could also be like stay away from this and go for this uh trust me the ethical background i got a video explaining it if you want to know the bite size version but ultimately like you don't have the time to be too concerned about this but i can give you a vague direction on you want to avoid that and go more so for this and they can be like well i trust drinker so i will sure because that's what he dedicates his time to right he's invested in this he watches all these movies and like you can trust his opinion after watching so many of his videos and it's like you know what if he says this is good i'll go see it and i'll probably like it and being stealing pictures right because like i think that we can all agree we can all agree that caring about uh kids working in cobalt mines or lithium mines is like a million times worse than somebody stealing a picture like this is like infinitely worse but nobody cares about the lithium mines and so i'm not going to hear about the pictures that's i still like i would still be like we should probably still be made aware of that though the lithium mine stuff you know what i mean like i i would never even discourage that and i don't know enough about that industry to know what changes have happened over the last decade or whatever like as far as i know i'm operating just under the idea that it has happened in the past i assume it still happens but i don't know if like if people become more aware of it the industry industry shrinks or maybe it changes or like i don't know anything about it but even then this is just oh they're starving kids in africa and it's like yeah there are that's bad too but this can also be bad i guess he's trying the the comparison he's making is for the sake of like they don't care about that so obviously they won't care about this is like they might i don't know the proximity issue comes up again but also who cares if they care if they care about neither of them i still think we should advocate for the knowledge of these things happening well yes it's his point like oh look at them getting worked up over this thing that isn't as big an issue as this other thing in the world that is a bigger issue is that his point part of the issue though is again like that might be an individual hypocrisy or they might be a reason for that they might be like i do have a set of pages and tweets about that issue you know what i mean this is like yeah well maybe you do whatever you know i mean like it's just like way too many assumptions have been made it's the way i feel about it so yes of course people who has time to ask questions about prod every product that they consume where does he think no and i don't even think it needs to be that complex so just um no but but there's nothing wrong with people being made aware of that because i could be made aware of it and go yeah you know that that could happen on other things on other products they go oh no i do care about that one i mean that's just normal that you're gonna have differing levels of interest depending on what it is a shirt was made i mean isn't this like how would you guys rate this compared to like what happened to cigarettes like the proliferation of how just just how fucking bad they are would have made a serious difference to people's enjoyment of them right i mean surely i did like one of the reason i don't want to smoke so i don't want to get any of the illness that they were associated with smoking yeah absolutely the the knowledge of it has definitely um and we've seen it right we've seen over time going from everybody smoking everywhere all the time to oh this is actually really bad for you so you can't smoke inside you shouldn't smoke in your car you know you shouldn't blow smoke into a baby face and that has a vastly reduced presence in society yeah and now smoking is a minority and maybe even like a super minor yeah i'm still glad with the oh yeah yeah it's still well and a lot of them have transferred now over to um vaping right looks like in 2021 11.5 percent of us adults currently smoked cigarettes how awesome though so i'm not sure just based on the blur but it says in 2023 of those youth who ever tried e-cigarettes uh approximately half reported currently using cigarettes indicating that many youths who try e-cigarettes remain e-cigarettes users ah so half of the people so i guess approximately half of the youth who tried e-cigarettes are currently using them okay so i guess if you gotta you gotta have is about half the people who tried them kept using them or at least used them when the survey was done in 2023 then of course because it's so sad and yeah we traded that out forever being fat or whatever it's like well to take it seriously it's like that is an epidemic right like the like heart disease related things of obesity is like a huge problem in the west and it's like yeah that a lot of people have said that's an education problem but at the same time it's like a lot of things that would come into it um but you know the highlight being people are aware that it's killing them and they're still doing it but that doesn't mean we give up or we can't change it yeah i mean it would surely surely they are better off for knowing that than worse off for knowing exactly yeah and so like what i guess i'm saying is that that's a way more serious exchange of cost and we can make a difference of it still but like why i just feel like encouraged about all of this is like we should we should make people more aware as best we can with all of these different sectors i'm sure all of these things were made ethically as well right come on what is this like what why are we why are we living in this world of these people that think that because they have a lot of free time to fixate on things on the internet that normal people that have average lives are somehow inferior because they do something else with their time instead of that it's such a how do you get that at all not like they're inferior but they they could benefit from the knowledge i would say that about myself if i didn't have it yeah ridiculous thing and so patronizing and obnoxious you are not a shitty person if you don't want to thoroughly investigate and draw some but draw the line the moral line at the exact same place that some random other idiot thinks that you was this ever the argument that you need to be so incredibly invested in the research that you are an expert was that ever the argument here well and this person's been personally offended you can tell we we one of us i think in the beginning montage it's like they're clearly very angry they they believe what the as one goal is saying is not only a reflection of reality but encouraging of the reality that who gives a fuck about artists give us what we want that sort of thing that's and i'm not saying anyone saying that i'm saying that that's how they felt and that's why they're angry and that's probably why a lot of people are angry to draw that like i'm sorry but i just really i i don't see i i don't see these people having any any moral authority they don't you live in reality yeah exactly what they mean is you're a shitty person to me yeah no that's totally fine and they can have an opinion all they want it's a bit disingenuous to over represent how much of a choice people have in their day-to-day lives like you don't support slavery i guess you can't use a mobile phone or live in this society i completely disagree with this point of view these are people who cannot even uphold these standards for their own level of uh for their own entertainment and i'm gonna give you an example read this person's uh thing black multimedia artist voice actor uh he they and he this is clearly a person who cares about lgbt issues and the black lives matter and all that it's not clear how what do you think that their opinion on elon musk is i bet they think he's a terrible a terrible fucking person that a lot of people think elon musk is transphobic a lot of people think he's an asshole so this person is on a platform building the brand and continuing to make billions of dollars for a person who i think that they would assume is actively at war against certain identities that they either uh you know sympathize with or are part of so whenever this person can't even stop their own entertainment and you know like you can't even avoid using a social media platform no i'm not going to respect your opinion on telling me what video games to play so that is an interesting assumption about a lot of things to do with this person and the way that they engage with this platform and if he's completely correct about all of that i agree with him that is hypocritical and they should be a little bit ashamed of how they try and project a particular image but simultaneously don't really believe in it however if we are speculating on who they could be wouldn't you include the potential for this person to say that they believe that their contribution to the success of this platform is outweighed by how much they use the platform and it's you know availability to promote that the fact that it's a terrible platform yeah just the same way that we hear on stream like we if we bought if we bought tickets to go see you know the marvels but then we went on to youtube and we convinced everyone and told everyone about how terrible it was and obviously it would outweigh the you know the results of that so yeah you you can engage with a platform that you think is you know not great or you can engage in something to ultimately you know produce a better outcome overall yeah sure well and and what why i feel like i that this should be mentioned in his analysis is he is responding to them he's listening to them on this platform he wouldn't be if they're on a different one yeah i mean it's true that they don't like you on must i guess as part of the hypothetical yeah but that again they i'm sure they would argue that's outweighed yeah i i mean in this case assuming that that is the case you could make that argument that sure my presence on the platform outweighs the good that i'm doing for the platform and if you were super like super super into avoiding using products when it came to um unethical behavior to produce them uh if you rule out you know being able to use phones and laptops then you've essentially you've severely diminished your ability to get your word out against them and if everyone had the same standard then all of the people who were against you know lithium mining or whatever you wouldn't see them on the internet you they wouldn't be making posts or videos on youtube or anything like that because they can't use the thing that it would take to spread the word it feels like that's just sort of that yet you participate in society curious a little bit yeah yeah i get that i just um i'm just saying we're we're strictly hypothetical like like theorizing about what this person may or may not believe as my girls doing it too i find what his inclusion there was interesting and valid it's just that there's a couple of other options that can explain this as well yeah so much hypocrisy environment knows to wear patagonia jackets or buy evs with batteries made in china yes and and this is really the truth right and so i understand what you're saying you're saying that somebody needs a cell phone in order to exist in society my argument would be that if there were cell phones that were made completely ethically and they were worth they cost twice as much money nobody would buy them i don't think that this person would save up their money and buy the uh you know ethically sourced cell phone i think that they would buy the cheap one just like they would yeah some people absolutely well remember remember when he says everyone he doesn't mean that that's right i'm sorry i made them wait did he say everybody in this sentence he said nobody would i nobody right so what he says nobody doesn't mean nobody that's what i'm saying they have because they don't want to spend the extra money because it's always very easy to criticize and uh you know shit on people for doing something because they because like because they want to but whenever you are held to the same standard somehow it's always different no i think a lot of the times this depends on like the the sacrifice that you would have to make it is a huge sacrifice to forego having laptops phones and everything like that especially if you want to spread a message but it is not really much of a sacrifice to not play a particular video game or maybe don't buy a shoe brand or things of that nature right so if someone who would have would have had to make a very big sacrifice is criticizing someone who really didn't have to make a big sacrifice at all or in fact a very small or even minuscule one then i mean it might technically be hypocrisy on a certain level but i wouldn't consider it you know hypocrisy i think there's a meaningful distinction between i feel like people have a thing for this right when they pop a penny in a thing and they go oh you know just i just want to do do a little something you know help help out where i can that sort of thing like uh it's the equivalent of that where you're just like people want to make a difference and yeah you can point out almost cynically it's like yeah but you're not willing for to cost you much are you like okay but i still want to just make a difference where i can in places that matter to me and a lot of it's built on their knowledge of the the option you know the knowledge of what what thing is wrong what's not it's really not these are people who as i said you can't you're agreeing with them just wording it better i've we i've already said a lot of it is that i i do agree with him a lot i um i his viral clips and a lot of the harsher ways he words things which sometimes he's admitted to has some intention behind it have been unwise i believe whose lives do not revolve around the ethics of ai in the same way this person's life doesn't revolve around the ethics of elon musk we all pick and choose our battles we don't care about these things many people don't and there are all things that we participate in that we're hypocritical about and the problem isn't that people are being hypocritical it's that people want other people to carry their flag whenever they won't do it themselves they won't even carry their own flag they want you to pick up their flag and run with it whenever they won't even do it themselves and i'm not talking about moving out and being like the you know i mean he's describing essentially vichy signaling and i agree that's that's shitty when people yeah yeah yeah obama and living outside of electricity i'm not talking about that i'm talking about just not consuming entertainment content that you find to be harmful like how much do you want to how much do you want to bet that this person probably thinks amazon is bad and how much do you want to bet that this person probably has amazon prime i'm sick of this this is outrageous no this again yeah there's a lot of people that do that and feel that so yeah it's crazy like i'm not talking about you know somebody you know not being able to oh well you know you think the u.s is bad go move somewhere else i'm not talking about moving countries i'm talking about the way that you consume entertainment the way you consume it or people these people cannot even regulate the way that they consume entertainment but they expect you to and they're going to tell you that you're a bad person whenever you don't they can't they're building you're building a straw man out of that guy you're right you're right i could be totally wrong he could love you on musk and he could i think amazon is the greatest country of all time i was going to say i'll even be completely fair to him he's probably right about what they believe but at the same time you can acknowledge you're not going on fact you're going on assumption maybe yeah you're absolutely right i could be wrong but i don't think i am i want to reiterate my original point and then we're going to move on i am completely right and the reality is that i will prove myself right every single day forever and these people will keep coping and you know like having their little support groups on twitter because reality is mean i didn't make it this way they didn't make it this way it is this way it's not my fault i'm not telling you that it's good in some ways it is in other ways it's not getting mad at me for saying something that's obviously true is provably true and it will be continued to provably be true this isn't going to do anything i'm not in the business of talking about how the world should be and if i am there are a lot of other things it should change which number one you you could be in that business if you wanted to because you could just you could just start talking about how you think the world should be um it's your choice to not be i guess as a part of that so but you could if you want and and for the record he said a bunch of things that i completely agree with a bunch of things i completely disagree with a bunch of things that are contradictory to some of the things he said before a bunch of half thought out positions which i think it's completely fair but it's just funny to see that level of conviction after all that like i am fucking right like yeah all right okay which part of you yeah i mean not only is his argument a little bit too broad i feel and he's contradicted himself one too many times where making claims like i'm right everyone else is wrong and like whatever everybody's just coping and modeling if you disagree with me like that's a little too much i will say look all right this isn't like what xqc decided to go into the corner of the group crawling around on the ground dude that would i'm sorry that'll live in my mind forever yeah that's wild how could anyone forget that was so great getting on the ground and crawling around like a worm to prove how not mad as i guess the thing that he's defending is the whole the the opinion of the opinions of artists don't matter because consumers buy things i'll be like that's that i still think that's wrong why would you say less his position after everything we've talked about i mean i think if he's referring to the original statement that he said the clip that got taken around the internet because the one where he said artists opinions don't matter which a lot of people interpreted as him simply saying is you know in isolation which i like i said i i feel like most people should with any basic understanding of human beings assume that's not going to be his position and that you noted immediately how it was cut in a weird way you couldn't even know what was being talked about like i said i i have nothing but a sympathy for him on that one i would always prefer to see what somebody like seeing him explain his position over the course of some amount of time is preferable to just like whatever this thing was that was clipped out that was a minute long that is devoid of the context before and after he's always definitely a lot more he's now understand his position more than at the beginning where i had no clue about any of it well what's wacky is that we've covered a video here that this is probably the most mixed video we've come across at least in a long time very mixed yeah i mean compared to yes those video geez yeah i mostly agree with i think what he's trying to say right he's just a horrific communicator um sometimes he is which maybe that means he's overall but you know i mean like because some of the things he says you're just like yeah he's agree yeah i think he's articulate but he's not consistent and at least not in this right he seems to be bouncing back and forth and maybe it's just because of the format of him responding to random tweets and talking to his own chat so he's just you know jumping from subject to subject to subject back and forth but it is a little hard to sort of see the consistency in his argument across it especially when you're using multiple you know meanings of the word value and so on yeah value and uh matter those two words that came up a lot and they they we need to know better contexts almost every time if you're going to be using those words but some of it got crossed later on when like that person said about the you know the personal uh nostalgic or whatever value artistic value uh economic values like yeah it can get complicated social media which would have reduced about half of these posts in the first place these values don't mean anything to anybody outside of a perpetually and terminally online group of of mostly freaks i mean let's be honest there's a lot of furries here okay personal attacks rule don't have an anti-argument oh yeah and also by the way um there's a lot of people that were making fun of uh my room uh the fact that i had a dead rat for an alarm clock oh i i'm sorry what i don't know about that well i need some context on that one um i didn't catch that even was a rat i'll i'll i'll play an alarm clock covered by a rat so by the way um there's a lot of people that were making fun of uh my room uh the fact that i had a dead rat for an alarm clock what does it mean i assume it's an alarm clock like a novel alarm clock shaped like a rat that like scratch is that sort of like how you power a clock with a potato you can just plug it into a rat's corpse there's something bad news for all of you oh no it's so so when he said that i was like fuck yeah you're correct nobody should be saying you're wrong on this subject because you have a dirty room or because you have a dead rat for an alarm wait what and i was like what and so i googled it and and i have fetched the context so that we could understand what he's talking about because that i thought the exact same thing i thought he he had a novelty alarm clock that was like a porcelain thing there's a dead rat and the people made fun of him for that was something i was like i wouldn't care about that right yeah this brings back yeah all of the stuff where where before we came onto the screen you were like you gotta be ready for this this was not as you can tell from the portion of this video i was like yeah this has all been chill we can just check out the arguments respond and then he said that and i was like what are you talking about i had i've never heard about this before and a lot of people have even assumed it's like he's just being hyperbolic okay wait does he explain the alarm clock i'm just gonna let it play john we're just gonna let it go okay here we go i told that we're making fun of uh my room uh the fact that i had a dead rat for an alarm clock the fact that i wiped blood on the walls uh the fact that most of my teeth have fallen out and i would just like to remind you that that person has a better grip on reality than you do there's been like a dead rat in my house for like the past fucking like three days and i can't find where he is because you can smell the fucker but you don't know where he is and the thing is what's so annoying about that is the fact that like you have a dead rat in the house and you don't rat in the house and you don't know where he is who's a dead rat as an old as an old why is it skipping fuck it's not skipping it for it did on our head the the fucking some other channels going on about that is the fact that like you have a dead rat in the house and you don't know where he is and you can actually use a dead rat as an alarm clock because whenever the sun comes out the rat will begin to smell bad and the smell will wake you back up from your sleep get the dead rat out i don't need too anymore it doesn't smell bad it would the thing is i used to use a dead rat as an alarm clock actually uh for my crowd because basically what happened was whenever the sun would come up it would start cooking the corpse of the rat and then it would start smelling again and then the smell would wake me up so i would use the rat effectively as an alarm clock and as soon as i uh as soon as it you know it got hot enough it would wake me up and then i would know oh shit it's time to stream that that person has a better grip on reality than you do have you guys ever done that before okay i'm not even gonna ask about the blood wall i don't even know if i even want to know so um this is a meme this is not real that's so funny this is a meme right don't you know what don't let the big part dissuade you from man i've got a dead rat somewhere in my house that's making it smell but you can like close all your doors and then you could check and see which room smells it's not just that it's the someone that asked him like oh any luck with the dead rat he said it doesn't matter anymore because it stops smelling yeah it doesn't matter it's fine just leave it just leave it there the the desecrated sorry this is this is not a meme i don't think it's a meme i don't think he's joking as he seems serious about that if how do you i'm trying to be as like a fairer understanding i mean it's it's it's fucking funny but i don't like that well i surely this like health concerns like yeah like that's not good like rotting corpses around you are not good the fumes and the gases and just like you're inviting other things because of that like bugs and roaches and like i mean and plus isn't there like doesn't it ever kick in that sense of like like i don't know pride or not even pride like self respect well so a lot of people saying he's a hoarder it's like i thought hoarders collect things that aren't dead animals i don't know if a thing crawls in their collection and dies well it's theirs now i mean to be fair i think like he would see the humor in it like if you were to like you know point it out but like he he also like he can't find the rat like i'm sure like he wants to get rid of the smell i don't think he looked very hard because imagine the work it would take to move all that shit around to find where the rat is people say there's loads more lore about heaven like his his stuff he gets up to one of the things i had read is that he you'll apparently like he doesn't care about eating things that well over expiry date like um and that some of his fans have concerns he's gonna accidentally kill himself at some point because he'll eat you know something that's well too far he fell out or whatever well that's gonna potentially happen i guess if you don't could that happen for me in expired things or would that just be like not brushing them i don't know it's probably it could be all sorts of things yeah you've seen it next to his desk he has like lots of soda right he has yeah hundreds of things of soda so he clearly drinks a lot of i know nothing about the blood wall and several people said don't look into the blood wall so i don't want to look into it all right i don't take you i don't think i don't know what the fuck that's about like why wouldn't you just have some paper towel on stand by like you do that once maybe like just to like get rid of the excess if you're bleeding a lot but then you wipe the wall off surely like clean it up like you don't just leave it there but why would you even like this is what i mean i was so confused at the end where he was just like people have been bringing up my blood wall my dead rat i was like what the fuck what even what what does this have to do with and the funny part is like this has nothing to do with his argumentation but now i'm just curious about the dead rat alarm clock which like i said i thought was gonna be porcelain with a little tongue hanging out or something yeah it's like it's a like it's a funny little mouse with x's for eyes it's a fake mousetrap and you like oh you hit it and it goes squeak squeak or whatever or something no no i thought it was going to be using the chemical composition of a real rat corpse to somehow power an alarm clock like a potato like a little bit of a mad scientist yeah but i just you know what as well he's like yeah you could use it as alarm clocks like is that even that effective like i feel like that would be fairly inconsistent depending on like what the weather is and the temperature that you keep your room and do you keep them on the window still or do you maybe do you have like a micro magnifying glass that's aimed at the rat because if it's not directly in the sun it's not kind of warm up that much it'll just really it'll probably just it'll just take the temperature of the room if it's not in the sunlight i'm sure that would narrow it down i don't even want to think about i'm stunned and apparently there's there's a lot more of the like you could see house tours from other people that the this is just apparently just it's just normal and it's like okay as in like it's it's not some crazy thing to album gold fans and it's crazy because i've been aware of him for a long time i never knew about any of the this uh but it's not there's another thing if i didn't want people to know that or make fun of me for it i wouldn't have said it look at i'm gonna look at i think they're a little smaller this is and there's music in the background no what is that you remember how i mentioned like i was surprised none of you wanted to like poke into why it was so weird about asking about whether you would you meant that was the rat thing i like the surprise of it i wanted to be surprised no no no not that no no no i'm saying the about halfway through the stream i said hypothetically if you had some bread that you spawned some maggots in could you imagine anyone could could you imagine anyone choosing to eat that after noticing that is that what's on that that's what this is how it's linked and that's what he says in the clip he's like look you can see them uh you obviously it's not very high defs you can't really make it out what see right there i don't know if i should eat those or not i kind of feel like that that person has a better grip on reality than you do but i do that's actually gross this really what i when i was like what what like what is the context for the thing that loads people commented this like oh yeah this is as bad as eating the maggots this is like why why oh my god i just needed like make sure everyone understands don't do any of these things please don't yeah that's awful do not do that for you um and i understand like people who are fans of his stuff no wonder they want to stop doing stuff like that it's like this could kill you um get some terrible disease or infection or something gross is one thing unhealthy is another like you don't do unhealthy things yeah i don't know what to say about that there's not much to say who actually try to genuinely put on a uh an attempt to listen to other people's perspectives and point of views points of view and like that's that is something i generally try to do now is it something that i always do no i do not always do this but it is something that i generally try to do two plus hours explaining yourself but if you express how you feel in a painting song suddenly you wouldn't matter this is a bald face who's got a couple viral tweets going after him i mean this is the two hours is him responding to arguments you know so i it's not like he's done a two-hour essay about why how right he is and then secondly um the wouldn't matter part again it's it's been misunderstood as being like a general casual as opposed to economically speaking which has been the whole problem pretty much i think remember flappy bird hugely popular game these are the tweets that came out after the video people still copy its gameplay today remember how the creator of flappy bird stopped selling it for a while because he felt it was too addictive it's almost like that was proof that an artist's feelings could directly impact consumers yeah and i think this is something that i'd like as mongol to talk about is the economic impact of a single artist's opinion whether it be the one who created it or someone who influences the one who created it even this uh right yeah i keep thinking about what a t age bomber guy said in his bare mind these all had fucking like 30k likes on it it was crazy latest video regarding how plagiarists fundamentally don't respect the people they steal from and how that can be applied to i algorithms ripping off artists and what that says about the people who created and you said algos and that i i'm not even sure as mongol would disagree with that um you would you would say like yeah it is indicative of how a lot of people don't care and that that's something that i would hope as mongol to say that's something that maybe should change and we should try and do something about it where we can you know not in some kind of crazy way but making people more aware of the things they should appreciate behind the things that they love that um and then this was the other clip that went viral and i think it's so fucking dumb that he's getting like the cancellation because the title of this stream by the way that the trial of as mongol is more so related to the internet's trial of him i guess you could say we've done a trial of him but i wouldn't really go that direction i'm also just checking out what happened and then using it as a vehicle to just talk about some stuff because we like chatting here and uh this one this one's just funny uh but he's like there's like people who fucking the commentary on this clip has been said like i guess i'll play it first in vengeance i am the night i am batman that doesn't sound like batman to me yeah like i just i i don't see that that sounds like alfred not so and that's the clip um the reason that would have gone viral for anyone who doesn't know is that's essentially the quintessential voice of batman kevin conroy kevin conroy yeah yeah he so it's uh but it's just the final role for him right in any batman thing or anything in general yeah that's why it says thank you kevin you can see it well in faint yeah in faint text there um but yeah i would i would attribute this to a writing problem not a delivery problem i mean it clearly is kevin conroy but like just the line of like batman just jumps in like i am vengeance like like why would he say that what i assume i'm motivating him there he's not saying it but i don't know also this is meant to be the all the justice league evil right because it's for the suicide squad game yes um but there were people who say like i want this for man fucking dead i would see this clip i was like jesus wow oh okay we'll get and it like had significant levels of likes and it's like oh my god and it's uh it's a thing of like if you've annoyed people in any other way and then they share clips like this they'll just be like yeah this is reason for you to be taken away from it it's like what the fuck um that's from the animated series iconic scene with joker that's the thing i don't think it's i don't think we're supposed to think that is from what we saw in the trailer um like he doesn't enter that place and then say that at least i can't know for sure but yeah well even if he did right they took what they could get because they wanted to oh you know do an homage to somebody that worked with them that was now dead absolutely yeah i mean and the yeah people like how the fuck don't you know that is batman's voice and stuff like that and it's just like well i guess yeah he just didn't but that that's it that's that's all i could gather for why those people like as what gold needs to be destroyed i was like i mean well yeah because if you're not a big like if you're not in a batman or you never really watched any batman content you just might flat out not know that um i guess one might argue he probably should see i'm assuming he's played all the arkham games i don't know you would thought uh yeah i don't know uh because i haven't played any to my knowledge i figure that you would have just heard you would have heard kevin conroy as batman in one way or another because he's been playing the character for like 30 years um like all across the number of 91 yeah i've crossed uh video games for mediums yeah animated films that you figure that you would have heard him at one point he is he is the quintessential like voice of batman yeah which is why this went viral i guess but uh they have it and i think i've got one bonus meme this is uh that's made aware of bonus meantime i've seen this i know this you have seen this so i almost i don't want to give any preamble to chat because they're so familiar with these two crazy characters so we're just gonna play this clip they could i could let chat be like wait what just happened hey chat if anyone's just listening this is where you need to you need to look at the screen okay look at what happens this is a visual required eyeballs needed we melt their strikes on iran iran demanding answers amid an escalating spat with pakistan overnight pakistan launch retaliatory strikes on targets in southeastern iran just across their shared can i just i just want to highlight like ex-qc's fucking reaction of like that's bad when ex-qc is uh the ex-qc's the the right one here yeah over night pakistan asan leaves strikes on targets in southeastern iran just across their shared and the video was not interrupted or changed in any way no this is not an edit this is a number of militants but iran says no wait hold on hold on change shirt you smell are you telling me that i reacted to a edgy to edge visual video about the whole thing about the whole ordeal and i get canceled for reacting and you're telling me the same people are praising it this guy this editor who went after me and he literally modifies the video where he gets off the fucking screen um carrying out deadly military so yeah the the the hasad has found a new way to the criticisms of all being around that it is unbelievable that in his world in his mind he's like the problem was that it was an empty chair that was so the way that i solved that problem is not by pausing the video or remaining in place and reacting to the video and providing commentary the solution is putting visual on screen of the reacting and that solves the problem yes right i was like i don't understand it how how is that possible how is that possible that he thinks that that would the problem was the chair that was the problem so i'll fix it by putting just a canned reaction image of me on screen yes i can't just pause the video for a few moments while i go pee and then come back i can't stand because remember how he's like well i had the video on my phone when i left so it's all good he just was incapable of understanding what the problem was he couldn't do it it was impossible yeah it's so funny though because it's just proof that this bothers him to no end that he doesn't know how to solve it by being against normal person i mean isn't this storytelling the fact that he feels compelled to put an image of ah look at me i'm reacting woohoo instead of an empty chair means he knows that there's something wrong that's what i said yeah what i think is really funny is that people are are the the argument that people are making about this is oh no not cnn oh how would you take the advertising dollars away from cnn it's like that is you have completely missed the point you're like not even human your brain is not because it's cnn cnn is not allowed to what make money off of like there because it's cnn there are lots of the value of the things that they've made completely extracted by hasan that was easily the number one response in in in defense of this clip that i've seen well easily i also want to but then why did hasan do what he did it's like so but anyway exactly i i someone said like free cub believe this has he seen hasan previously i have to defend the idea that this is a new low like he's stunning he's got that's such a pathetic attempt at hiding it look how obvious it is he's not wearing the same clothes like let me just click the button that puts me on automatic i gotta be yeah there we go done loading or whatever it's like there it is i think i'm still here reacting to videos when i'm like he literally just doesn't want people screenshot in the empty chair that's it yes so pathetic i mean there's ways there's ways you could have masked this right like for one take out the dialogue where he says i'm gonna go pee so like like the audience they hear that they're gonna be like okay he's leaving his chair now and all of a sudden he's back there again like okay you clearly edited this if they took that piece of dialogue out they could assume that okay maybe there was some visual glitch or something even though you can't really assume that because the cnn footage is still proceeding uninterrupted but then you also could have put you could have you could have put an artificial jump cut in the cnn footage as well to sort of cover that up like there's things the editor could have done but just didn't bother like all of that is so funny to me just pausing you know i can't he can't just pause once i watch out my phone so it's all good that's what's so sad right like he can't just be like i'm not here to react to this right now i am just going to pause the video do my thing come back and then i'll resume and then the reaction why because he wants he wants to extract all of the the value of the video yeah he doesn't want to he doesn't want to lose viewers right like because of the video goes paused people are gonna like get out oh this is the benefits of the video while doing nothing to transform it or turn it into my own creation or still benefiting from it it's just hilarious that he thinks that he's done he's achieved something by well say look it's not an empty chair it's me with a canned reaction a canned generic non-speaking reaction to this video it's so lame yeah it's like it's so counterproductive because this is a massive red it's not even a red flag it's like a siren a wailing siren it's a what are they called a a cacklon a cat what's the noise klaxon yeah like a big noisy whiny thing with signs that say look at me look at me and look what i've done that's all this does is you're bringing an insane amount of attention to it if he would have done his normal bad thing people might have just gone yeah that's a sign just up to his you know old no just bullshit again you know he's doing bad stuff what is he supposed to do die i i i don't know man it's still the other option i guess if it's this or die you know well it's quite a quandary quite a moral quandary but he can no longer with this clip i think he can no longer make the argument that he doesn't know it's bad or that isn't bad right like or that it's fair use or that it's transformative or any of that i don't think you can make any of those arguments that he's made in the past because now you're saying oh look you clearly know that this is an issue in some way right and it doesn't matter what argument you make about it if it is an issue because oh somebody isn't there reacting then you know whatever or oh people will leave if they don't see you whatever your argument ends up being it is clear that there is a problem with having an empty chair and somebody not no he would just tell you he's just trying to counter people doing memes of like spreading lies about him by doing screenshots of his chair what was the thing recently is him getting mad at like lsf about people making fun of him yeah why would they ever do that there's a screenshot of him saying to the head mods of live stream fail as a subreddit which is a pretty popular one that just shares lots of drama or notable things about streamers and he asked them to stop posting about him in general because they're all like the too much of it is making fun of him and making fun of his lowering view count which uh oh my god well i don't even know why he would fucking give a shit about losing x amount of viewers while he has a video that he's watching paused i mean dude's a millionaire i mean when i'm he means in general overall this the trends for his channel going down um he's losing viewers consistently and like people are making fun of him for it he doesn't like that yeah he doesn't want it he doesn't want to be turned into a lol cow he doesn't like that which what and he thinks that might that might be the reason why is that he's pausing the like pausing oh dude i don't even think i think it's a petty enough that it's literally just i don't like it it makes me sad stop it like don't let people make fun of me like that oh my god for me he's mad child i get to approve how i am made fun of which should be here well it's funny because if anyone was asked especially in our fucking community why do you think he's losing viewers like oh let me just pull out the list like why that's probably happening man you know this is all hilarious and all but i mean that that dead rat a long clock thing i'm still thinking about that that's i figure it would be a that'll stick with you a little bit but it'll linger it'll linger i don't know how a human being can live like that that's just and of course the the bread holy shit people can talk about the blood wall we're not looking into the blood wall like physically it makes me cringe obviously i mean i i wouldn't give up on something like that i mean i can sympathize with being frustrated if like you smell it and it's like you're looking for it and you can't fucking find it anywhere then it must be in the walls or something right but then i wouldn't stop there i wouldn't be like oh whatever i'll just live with the smell and just use it as an alarm clock from henceforth like no because i don't believe it's in the walls it's probably buried underneath his many piles random crap and garbage i just don't understand how it could be tenable to sell a hanging rat like right and then you can just accept that i guess this is life now maybe living in this room with this rat i just geez oh i will coexist with the smell that doesn't be honest to you those four words i never thought would be it is selection of dead rat alarm clock how did these end up like this anyway that wraps up this stream we learn anything yeah i don't have to specify what it is do i it's so obvious and everyone's like it's up on what it was like you know i alert like i learned some today no we didn't well we we've that's a that's an update for everybody on our opinions related to a lot of different things like i don't know fucking ethics in in in ai slightly we managed to cover a lot of that we got a bit in about um the many positions you can take on on cultural enrichment or awareness of issues that relate to the the production and consumption of products and how that affects the economic markets you oh all of the things you know it's nice to just jump into that and maybe we'll do it again sometime later if if azan gold gets into another controversy when he misremembers like who is the voice of someone else in a game maybe that'll happen but um yeah i mean what i wanted to say though in conclusion was that it's absurd that he got in so much trouble but that is usually how it works it's funny because it's like why doesn't hasan get into more trouble he's like an actual bastard but then again i guess he's he's been crying lately that he does get into too much trouble and people make a front of him so i don't know maybe maybe and uh yeah i i i tend to agree someone said last stream was way more painful like yeah yes yeah this was not as painful as that one the word grueling comes to mind in the previous one this one was dense lots of conversation is more cutting out that's a good point like half of the people that watch hasan are sort of used to him being a clown and saying and doing stupid things so when he does it it's just like oh whatever it's just hasan being a son but then azman gold does something like relatively mildly stupid and then it's just like oh my god i can't believe this thing and then it's a whole thing mm-hmm um but hey before we go john what did you tell people what you're doing what are you up to where was it happening there oh man i'm just doing my usual stupid shit i just made a video on arby in the chief video about new year's resolutions about chief vowing to fuck arbiter's mom a little bit less in the ass this year oh and then wait the at the end of the episode you see whether he follows through on that promise it's really dumb but anyway if you want to see it john graham on youtube yeah as per usual we appreciate you joining us for such extended periods of excessive discussion and harsh realities i'll put it that way i can tell you oh man i had a lot of fun doing this thank you for inviting yeah this was this was interesting this was an event it sure was boy oh boy mr moriarty what are you up to where you were you was what's happening uh i'm working on another video um but in the meantime you can always find me at youtube.com slash really cool because my youtube channel is really cool and um i worked on a recently a 12 hour long video that i'm very proud of like i wanted to see so the entire history of video games all of it uh every second dude i i love that video man i i haven't worked my way through the whole thing yet but like i've seen a few hours of it i'm i'm working my way through it it's a work in progress but it's awesome dude i really appreciate that yeah like it took me that was nine months i worked on that so wow i would really like it if everybody went and saw it and give me thousands and thousands of hours of watch time how often will you update it yeah never never well uh the you know link to your channel and you can find that video with ease it is excessively well researched and edited you know it might just be the best video on the subject which is you're actually against a couple of decent big hitters on that one right i mean you know there's some other guys out there there are some other guys out there um yeah obviously thank you both for joining us this is a this is a strange different efap as many of them are you never know what'll happen never know what subjects will cover they'll never get stranger though this is we've peaked with strangeness for this weekend it was a strange weekend you know back to normalcy it's normal from here on out we got it out of our system 2024 is the year of normalcy yeah back to someone just saying she hulk was good who'd be like there you go back to the yeah i remember those days everyone's say good rat is like that was a bad rat that's a bad bad rat that was a sad rat that's what that was yeah that's a sad it's not that a rat died and it's sad we want a happy rat yeah happy rat not dead alarm clock rat uh bringing rags and you guys want to talk about before we go i don't think so yeah i don't think anything's changed dramatically since i went to sleep since since today you know yeah since we lost COVID but uh you know you know the deal working working not since last time but you know working after this working um well so it can give the update i was going to mention yesterday but now this thing's getting a little bit weird in terms of how i'm not sure how i'm releasing everything now we've got about five or six catch ups six episodes of tv ready to go an e-fap movies that's about to release two episodes of e-fap that are going to get out now one on backup there's another one that we've recorded ready to go so there's all of those i gotta figure out exactly where and when they're going but then also lord the rings which i just couldn't fix the trilogy thing i don't know what's going on the copyright as an asshole it always comes up for things that are clearly not the thing so i had a final idea of what if i split them back into individual movies so that it doesn't prompt the hyperbots and fellowship and return of the king haven't been clear for a week but two towers just just just keeps getting hit not sure what's going on but i was thinking to myself like what if um what if they were released that way and two towers is just the one that gets hit so that at least the other two can have some ad sense and then after that i can release the individual videos so we're gonna see how long if i can get the both to survive two weeks fellowship and return of the king i'll probably re-release them as e-fap movies individuals and then i'll unlist the trilogy one and link it in the description the others so that they can have some like that this been copyright hit the uh the trilogy one i can't fix it so that might be the solution but then i'm also working on the it's going to be like 20 individual supercuts of the conversations and right now as it stands i'm i'm close to completing like the major work that needs to be done to collect it all up but we've got like i mentioned before there's like a baramir one an aragon one a theodin one um one that relates all to the themes of lord rings one that relates all to the production of orderings so that they bite size versions so that any of you that was like i can't just casually sit down and watch seven hours of e-fap movies you'll have they're all an average of about 20 to 30 minutes so you can check those out if you want and that's another way for the compensation to come back a little bit because that project was enormous and painstaking so um yep they worked very hard on it so knowing that they weren't making you know stuff on it it really sucks to see it's it ain't fair it ain't fair it ain't fair and so uh what i'm guessing same with all of that so i just mentioned super chats like yeah that's why i meant by catch ups there are five catch ups that are ready to go and obviously me and rags gonna be recording uh and then they're free recording more of them but you heard what i just said correctly there's about 45 videos to be released on mula and they're ready now so it's like wow i'm just trying to figure out exactly how that's gonna look yeah you got uh you got all of Loki season two is done yes oh yeah i forgot about that that nice yeah don't don't forget that would make me sad but yeah no no it's just part of my listing i said e-fap tv six episodes of e-fap tv it's just like it's just a show that doesn't have any staying power drop it all at once you just fucking forget that it happened you know well what's funny too is that i haven't included star griff that's once per week and then of course the regular e-fap episodes that upload so what you got two this week people yes that's what i'm saying it's just like you know it's like what's the schedule for things it's like i gotta figure this out it's gonna have to be three videos a week at this point uh maybe four um anyway that's the update and uh you know more stuff on the way but i think me rags and free might just chill out for a little bit you know after all that that weekend thank you all so very much for joining us you have yourselves a good morning and night afternoon whatever it may be but for now we're gonna say good boy yeah goodbye everybody bye bye