 The Dramatist Guild of America. And I want to thank CPT. Thank you so much for holding this really wonderful event. That last panel was fabulous. I feel a grave pressure after that last panel. So many amazing things. I took so many pages of notes. So thank you to Raymond, thank you to Beth, thank you to Caitlin, thank you to Molly, thank you to CPT. Also, thank you to Northwater Partners for doing all the technical aspects today. And also, we are live streaming on HowlRound. So for the audience participating at home, hello. And I am so excited today to talk with Amy Mueller and Beth Wood who are wonderful producing artists who have many years of experience. And we're talking the kind of the topic of the conversation is the plays, not the thing, which is a wonderful, wonderful title. Caitlin, was that your title? Is that, yeah? There's a great title. Raymond's, okay, great title. And yeah, so we're going to be talking a little bit about the relationships between producing agencies, producing entities and artists and how those relationships sometimes go very well and deepen over many years. And maybe even if we get there, how some of those relationships might not work out the way that we had initially hoped for. And Amy made a great point before we started. She just wanted to know a little bit about the background of the audience here. I'm sure most of us are theater artists in some way. So, and you might, we're gonna do like a little hand raising here just to kind of get a feel of the crowd. And you might end up raising your hand for an answer, yes, to all these questions. Who here comes maybe more from or does do some producing on the producing end? Okay, yeah, so, all right, okay. What about people who more do playwriting itself, playwrights? Okay, oh, so many playwrights here. I know there's quite a few dramatist-skilled members here. I see you all, you're all going in the regional update. What about primarily actors or people who are mostly on the stage in some form or another? Okay, all right, large portion of the room. Dramaturgs, dramaturgs, we've got a couple dramaturgs, wonderful. Directors, director, oh yeah, well, look, a lot of directors. Other kinds of important scenic designers, costume designers, oh, a number of costume designers, wonderful. Sound designers, lighting designers. All right, we've got a lighting designer, wonderful. Were there any, yeah? I mean, self-identify. Self-identify, yeah. All right, ready? Super, so I loved the question that Raymond started us off with on the last round. What kind of projects or one project in particular that you guys are finding yourself deeply involved in or drawn to right now that you are working on, possibly through the organization that you run or maybe through another organization that you are working with at this time? Beth, do you wanna start? Yeah, sure. You know, I think a project for me that is at the forefront of my mind is the same project that Nicole mentioned in the last panel is a breakout session or for Gors because I've had the honor of being in the room as she is creating this piece and just kind of what that journey is for those characters in this story. Yeah, it's definitely at the forefront of my brain and just kind of dreaming about how to make that all come to life. Thanks, Nicole. And you guys have worked on previous projects together or how did that kind of come about? How did it? Yeah, so I directed another play of Nicole's called Lines in the Dust a few years ago which is about the innate racism of our public education system and she gave me the permission to direct that play because I wasn't sure I should direct that play. I didn't know if it was my story to help tell even though I thought it was an incredibly important conversation for the Cleveland community to have around our public education systems and the sacrifices we make for our children. And so that's kind of how Nicole and I first started to get to know each other and then it's blossomed into what I hope is a beautiful friendship and collaboration. Oh. Amy, what about you? What's a project maybe that's at the forefront of your mind right now? Well, I guess I want to kind of preface this by saying that I'm the artistic director of a play development lab and a playwright incubator where we are really a non-producing lab that is dedicated to the work of the playwright and to advancing playwright's careers. So from that vantage point, one of the things that I've been working on since 2011 is developing a playwright residency program for our local community. And so it's been very sort of experimental so we've really piloted it for quite a long time and finally I feel like the process and the kind of frame of that program is pretty solid now. And I'm really very excited about it because we've just inducted our next class. So we have, or cohort, I'm trying to get away from the school language. So and that's something, it's kind of like a self-training thing, like what you call something. And I was calling it class because it made it clear to other people but realizing that it's not a class. It's, you know, they're not, they're there to do their work and to take their careers to the next level and advance those careers, launch into a national career. And so it's not school in any way. So each of the playwrights in the program have four year residency at Playwrights Foundation and we offer kind of a make your own bagel menu of resources that are free to the residents and they each have a small budget they can also use every year to pay for whatever they need to advance a particular play or a project or their careers or, you know, and lots and lots and lots of things. So that's what I'm really excited about right now is our new cohort starting. We have 10 playwrights now and they're essentially two years apart in their journey with us but they work together as a group and individually. That's interesting that the model where you give them, you know, some money to do what they kind of want with in terms of the development. I wonder a follow up question to both of you might be, you know, how do you negotiate the agency of the artist, the principal artist or the group of artists, right, with maybe some things that you were looking for in a project or hoping for or, you know, recognizing that you might be able to, you know, get in touch with a certain audience perhaps or develop a new kind of work that you are excited about. This person did a wonderful job in this last play. We were talking about in the last one and we, you know, and we love that and then this is something very different, you know, how do you negotiate that kind of agency and how does that maybe even come up with resources? Yeah, I think it all depends on the relationship and that's kind of a key thing in that it's a consensual relationship for a playwright to be working with a producing or a development organization and so it's all about what you lay out that relationship to be in the beginning. So maybe you both decide that this is a, that we're gonna date and maybe it'll lead to more, right? Like maybe I really like you and I'm really ready to see where this relationship and this collaboration can go. But maybe I just really like this project and maybe we're not gonna work on other things so we're gonna essentially have a one night stand and that's okay. And there's no judgment. It's all about creating something, you know? Could be one beautiful night or it could be like years of love and I'm going on this long tangent but I say all that to say that it's so dependent on what that relationship is and that that's a two way street for whether we're working with here at Cleveland Public Theater whether we're working with an artist in entry point, you know, in this early stage of creation or we're working with an artist through our catapult program which is really meant to take a play from whatever stage it's currently at to production ready here at Cleveland Public Theater. Those are very different relationships because in catapult like we're dating, right? We're dating and we're committed to each other, you know? So we're gonna give different kinds of feedback and ask for different things on that kind of project then we will on entry point because we want you to do you, you know? We always want the artist to do them, right? That's of the foremost importance and what resources and support can we as an institution or me as a human provide to create the right environment around you. And so it's all about that communication asking for what you need but also understanding that sometimes what you need is beyond the capacity of the person you're working with. And so it's all about what is that? How do you set those parameters? Or do your best to set those parameters in the beginning so that you both have that agency to ask for what you really need and that that's okay to ask. Is that your question? Yeah, yeah, I love the metaphor. I wonder if there is an app for that. And then I... Swipe right, swipe left. Amy, what ways and this was initially, this question was provoked by the idea of giving the playwright the money to kind of do what they want with it. Yeah, agency. Yeah, I mean I think that in my experience, I think the beauty of a play lab and the sector of play labs across the country is that it's a place where the playwright has agency or is in the driver's seat. And I think that as a community, I'm gonna be, I'm in a sort of the stereotypical playwright, does it feels like a victim? That feels that they don't have agency because they're knocking on the door and they have to get through gatekeepers and how do you do that? And that once a play is chosen for a season, that playwrights oftentimes don't have a voice in how the project is being cast, is being designed. There's this term, which I really don't like, the script is now locked, that changes cannot be made. That, and I'm talking about, of course, new work or a premiere or a rolling premiere, a newish play that the playwright wants to continue working on. So the playwrights don't feel that kind of agency, generally speaking. So I find it, I find, I think that what Beth said about your expectations, clarifying your expectations, walking into a project with a particular producer and understanding how this relationship is going to work and what you need and want and really need, really need, like how much authority do you need, for example, on casting choices, on marketing language, on, all these things are very important. I wanna get to that marketing question later, so I'm putting a little tag on it. But I think with regard, so my experience, particularly with the resident playwrights, is it's taken this long for me as the artistic director to figure out how to empower my playwrights, the playwrights that are in the program, how to fully engage most of them. Because my experience in the beginning were that they were waiting for me to say, do a workshop, I'm scheduling you for a table read over here. Come work on something at the Bay Area Playwrights Festival. There are 10 of them. So for me to, I wanted to turn the table on who was leading. So I've come up with this idea based on my colleagues' suggestions too, other people do this, is that you're the artistic director of your experience, your four-year experience. You decide how you wanna use it. You don't have to decide the whole four years, just decide six months, decide the next month, you know. And then you decide how you wanna use it. And then figure out what it is you need. And so that's a kind of a tall order, especially when you're used to being told, this is what you're getting, this is what we can do, or can't do. So I think that that's where, for me, I'm working with Playwrights to feel, to begin to articulate their own needs and feel that they have some agency in relationship to producers and to folks like the CPT who happen to be a little bit more open to having a relationship, you know. But I think that all producers want that ultimately, and it's hard to admit that you have a limit, so you're coming into my theater, but I don't have any equity contracts, okay? We would like to produce your play, but I have no equity contracts. I need you to know that. That's really hard for a producer to say at the beginning, you know. Or your set budget's going to be $500, you know. And so no, we can't have the aerial, you know. We have to find another way, a creative way to, or then the player can say, well, I really, really wanted you to do this play, but it has to have this in order to do it. How can that work? And I think in those conversations too, between like a producing organization and a creator, a playwright, or someone who's creating in an unconventional way, those conversations are incredibly important because it's like you're having coffee before your first full date, right? Right, right. So like if I'm saying you're asking to have marketing approval, but maybe that's a deal breaker for me. Right, right, right. And it's better to know that early on. I mean, I think many producing organizations, including us, have started conversations with plays that we're super excited about. And as we start to drill out those details, we realize that actually maybe this is in the right collaboration for either of us at this moment in time. That doesn't mean we're not gonna advocate for that play or that playwright. But right now in this moment, maybe it would be painful for all of us to enter into a longer agreement. Right. Whereas if at Playwrights Foundation, since we can't do the aerial anyway, then I can sit with my writer and say, hey, let's talk about, they come and say who can produce this play? Where should I go? Who should I talk to? I've got a trip to Chicago. Who can you call? And I've got this list of, and I can say, you know, actually I think what you need to understand is, you've got this element that's dramaturgically necessary that many theaters who are going to look at your work aren't gonna be able to afford. Why don't you write a grant to this seriously? I just did that with one of my writers, and guess what? He got the money! Okay. And so, I saw him yesterday, or the day before yesterday I said, and I had gotten the email and I said, you got the money. Now they're gonna produce it. But you did, he wrote the grant. I helped, you know, he sent it to me, I helped him. But that's agency right there because now the producer who was like, well, yeah, maybe, but I don't have a date yet, you know, that whole conversation, like the date never quite materializes. I said, you're gonna get a date. You're gonna get a date for, they're gonna produce it because you got the money. You know, and that was really an exercise in agency. Not that you have to go and fund your own projects, but recognizing what about your project is the barrier for a producer. And if it's this really expensive item, maybe that's what you need to find. And the other thing that was just kind of popping for me in what you were just saying was more than agency, it was the sense of coming in and being part of a team. So if I'm bringing a really difficult technical element, I'm part of that solution. Right. Right, I'm not saying, I am entitled to a production of my play and you must now produce it, but I must sign off on everything. And that, hey, it's okay to feel like that. Find your people, right? Find your tribe, find your organizations that are like, yeah, I'm there, I'm gonna do that for you, the playwright, but know your audience, right? Know who you're pitching to, so that you can be part of that team. It's a collaboration, this is a collaborative art form that we do kind of loft playwrights. They write the play. And yes, that's beautiful and that's important, but there are all these other artists that come in to support that play and make that play live and breathe, and it's a collaboration, it's a team effort. And so earlier you become part of that team or show a producing organization. You're like, I wanna be part of this team and that means a lot to me and I'm ready to receive that. Like that's a beautiful, exciting thing that to learn about a creator as they're working on a project and pitching a project. We had many people here raise their hands when they were asked if they were playwrights. So I'm wondering if it might be something that people will be interested in hearing if you guys have any advice or thoughts on some of those early initial conversations, whether it be with developmental organization, primarily development or primarily producing organization or a little bit of both, right? I mean, when people are starting to have these conversations early on in the dating process to continue the metaphor, right? What are some things that you look for? What are some things that tend to go well or not? For me, I think that there's, I hear it, the unsaid part of your question is even getting to have the conversation. Right. You know, and how that process actually happens. Like, how do you form relationships with the people that you would like to work with as a playwright, but you're having a hard time getting a meeting or having someone read your work. So there's that part of it. And I think that's really, really hard and something to talk about. But for me, when I do, when we do, I use a committee structure to select the work we're gonna work on for the year and the writers we're gonna work with in our residency. And then I do have, like to have a chat with the writer to find out, to find out what their goals are for the time that they're gonna be working with us. And to, that helps me understand what resources we need to put in place so that they can, that person, that writer can pursue those goals. So that's the conversation I like to have is to, and again, trying to take us out of the driver's seat and offer writers the resources so that each writer can feel that they are pursuing something that's important to them for the development of this particular project and not important to me. So that's my conversation, usually. I think what I would respond to are a few things. Number one, know who you're pitching to. Know their body of, know that organization's body of work. What kind of work do they do? So I could speak from a Cleveland Public Theater perspective and say that there are some key elements that we look for and in plays we're interested in, but those are nebulous, right? Those shift, but so for us it's a social justice theme or it's outside of the mainstream work or it's a play by an artist of color. These are high priority items for us as we're selecting full productions. But if you don't have an existing relationship with a theater, get to know them. Go and see their work. So important, so you learn more about their aesthetic and you might learn that their aesthetic is not a match for yours, right? And the other big piece of advice I will give, especially if you don't have, if you've never met, ask for coffee, but sometimes coffee is impossible, right? Leaders of that organization enter through the appropriate doors. There are doors, every theater has a different submission process. For CPT we have a general submission process and then we also open up a season submission process for full season productions and then we also have a new work development submission process. Enter in through those doors is a really great option or be around, be here, volunteer usher, or come see shows, because we see that. And as a producer we're like, wow, this individual's seen like the last 10 shows here. And then they just ask me for coffee, yes. I want to, I want now, because I've seen you. I second and third that and fourth that. Yeah, I'm like, oh wow, what's kind of compelling you to come and hang out with us and I want to learn more about you. Doesn't mean you have to do that to your coffee. I completely agree with you, Beth, that finding the theaters that you particularly resonate with in your community and showing up, go to opening night, volunteer to do whatever it is that needs doing within the scope of what you can offer, obviously. Yeah, offering something as an entry point to getting to know the folks that you want to work with. And then that way, you're not just pitching randomly or wildly, which really is hard. That just seems like, I would hate to do that. It's an incredibly vulnerable place, right? You're like sending your work out to all these different people that you're putting your work and your heart out on the line for someone else to judge and maybe not respond to. You know, I am grateful that I am not that player that I don't have to do that. Saying yes also. Saying yes to as many opportunities as possible. You don't know where those opportunities are gonna lead you. But say, like every year we do this event called Flash Plays, which are one minute plays and I'll say 60 second, because we're not doing the one minute play festival. And that is a way for me to get to know playwrights that I don't necessarily know or haven't had a chance to read their work. And quite a number of those writers actually have entered our programs by saying yes to writing one minute plays for a Flash Plays event and then showing up for the play, showing up for their rehearsals. I get to know them. I get to know them as writers. And I've discovered quite a number of really interesting people that I didn't even know lived in my own community that way. So saying yes. What are some ways in which you see new theater development moving right now in the United States? What are some of the new kinds of areas of interest for topics of conversation where people weren't going before and you see something or maybe places that you'd really like to see more plays being developed, more new voices being heard. Some of the things that you see happening right now. Do you wanna talk about that? No, you want me to talk about that? Yeah. You have a lot more plays come across your channel. Yeah. Well, that's a pretty wide question. Yeah. I'm trying to narrow it a little bit, all right? I mean, I think that the new play development sector is focused, from my perspective, is focusing more and more and more on the playwright as opposed to the play. And to developing the artist and their art, you know. But, you know, and I think that that's a trend, a good trend in the new play world. I think that the other trend that I really applaud and fervently wish to follow at Playwrights Foundation is to provide a living wage for playwrights and really allow a playwright to invest themselves in their work and careers by supporting their livelihood for a time. So that, and I've seen that being very successful for playwrights, particularly in New York, you know, through the LARC and through this Mellon Foundation residency monies. Unfortunately in California, that kind of money is very hard to come by. And I haven't unlocked that door yet. But, you know, that's a thing that Playwrights Foundation would like to participate in very much so, but needless to say, it is happening. And it's a good, I think it's a great trend, if you want. That's the trend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love what you say to me just sounds so true, that a focus moving from the play to the playwright. I mean, that sounds very true from what I've seen. Yeah, I think at Cleveland Public Theater, I think at first I wanna acknowledge that we're currently using the term playwright and I believe that we're referring to conventional playwrights. So someone who sits in a room and writes a play. Yeah. And that is to be celebrated. But I also wanna highlight that there are many different ways to be a playwright. And maybe that is working with an ensemble of actors. Maybe that is working with the right people in the room. So I think at CPT, we really embrace and celebrate not only conventional playwrights, but also people who are creating in different ways and in unique ways that are purposeful for their artistic process. And really unlock their artistic self. And I think that's really exciting. And I see that movement happening across the country of ensemble-driven work, of non-traditionally or unconventionally created work, site-specific work. Site-specific work, what is theater? Questioning the convention of theater and pushing those boundaries of like, does theater require an audience sitting in chairs watching something happen before them? Or can we push that boundary? Like how do we, what is the meaning of that? And so I think that's really exciting, especially as kind of conventional theater audiences are perhaps aging, right? I would agree. That finding new ways to celebrate live performance or storytelling can unlock and welcome different audiences into the room and invite them to experience with you rather than perform for them. I love that. Yeah, and I think that the new play development centers or playwright incubators like Playwrights Foundation have a role to play in that as well in kind of opening those boundary lines. It's not really quite what I meant to say, but changing the definition, what is a play or being open to a play being something other than a single playwright writing in a room by themselves and then providing you with a script. So we do have one writer who considers himself a multimedia playwright. And so his plays are also gallery installations. They have audio visual aspects to them that are part of the expression and dramaturgy of the work. And it's challenging because it requires more money, or more resources. However, I do think that places like CPT have a role to play in defining, helping to define the next iteration of American theater and defining that, what is theater and what can be the theater of the future. And I'm really excited about what you just said and what that is. Great answers. So I did, and we will open it up to audience questions and comments and discussion in a minute. But I also wanted to ask, what you guys do is hard. You guys, I know Beth works very long hours, and I'm sure you work very long hours. You're always reading scripts. You're developing new work. You're meeting with people. And as Raymond pointed out at our last dramatist-skilled event in central Ohio, for every person that you do produce, you're not producing all these other people. And people can be angry. You can experience a lot of, there's a lot of attention on what you're doing. It's a public performance, right? So what brings you joy in what you do? Where do you find your joy? What keeps you saying, this is what I do. This is my life, right? Why do you, you know, what brings you back every day to what you both do? Oh, there's so much joy. And I mean that, I mean that whole, like sure, there's also pain, but that's art, that's making art, right? If you're only finding joy in making your art, that maybe you're not digging deep enough. So there's always pain involved, no matter what. But there's so many things that bring me joy about what I have the privilege and honor of getting to do. I think watching, experiencing a play that sparks a conversation for the community in a new way is so incredibly rewarding. I think seeing, getting to watch an artist grow in their craft and on this trajectory is, again, an incredible honor and brings so much joy and heart to day-to-day. And then, you know, having the opportunity to see communities being reflected in the work that we're creating. So whether that's the Arabic speaking community through our Masr al-Alibi ensemble or a Teatro Publico de Cleveland ensemble and seeing them creating their own work, you know, and creating their own play, like the joy, you feel others joy, and that feeds you. And yeah, I work a lot, but so does everyone at CBT, like we're hard workers. But it's being in service, to that, to the organization and to the community is a flippant privilege. Like, how lucky am I? And if I don't find joy in that, then I need to find a new occupation. Yeah, I really don't have much to add. Honestly, it really has been the privilege and honor of my life to work with the playwrights that I've gotten to work with and support and offer resources to. And I do garner tremendous joy from witnessing their successes. And, you know, I don't know, there's like this, I do feel pride in that, you know, the good kind. You know, I do feel a sense of pride and that the impact, you know, that the work clearly that Beth does here at CBT, and I know for myself at Playwrights Foundation, the kind of work that we're really interested in supporting, the kind of playwrights that we're interested in supporting, I feel those voices and stories are really important to tell and to support and no matter where they go and what they're doing. And I kind of still remember a couple of my early experiences with that. For example, I don't know if you're familiar with Liz Duffy-Adams. I love Liz Duffy-Adams so much. Dog Act, which I know you guys developed there. Yeah. It was just fabulous. It's such a, I often teach it in my class because I love the language. Well that makes me feel so good. The language in that play is just so phenomenal. Yeah. And it is Liz's great, you know, incredible skill and talent with each of the works that she has, you know, developed. And so that play, Dog Act was kind of the beginning of my realization of what we could do as an organization for an individual writer. And I remember thinking after that play was produced in San Francisco and then went on to win a bunch of awards and got published and that, and it's not the only one. I'm just using that as an example because it was a very early success of ours that, what was I gonna say? I just lost my dress a lot. You're just overwhelmed with joy. Yeah, I was. Yeah, no, I really, I think I told somebody, I know this doesn't sound a little on the morbid side, but go with me here. I told somebody that, you know, if I happened to drop dead tomorrow, I will have felt that I had contributed to this world. And, you know, that's how meaningful it is, that how much joy it brings me personally. Yeah, so. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Liz Duffy-Adams because I just admire her work so much. Other, what, where are you guys? Yeah, Libby, uh-huh. We had the chance to see the representation are upper class, middle-aged white people and I think that we need to find a way to do that. I completely agree with you. And I think here at Cleveland Public Theater, I think we have put a lot of time and effort and heart into that. Whether that is through a long building of relationships in those communities, whether that is the Latino community or the Arabic-speaking community and inviting them in over long periods of time. And that's incredibly important. But it's also about ensuring that, that stories are being told on your stage that come from the perspectives of audiences you're looking to, you want to invite in, right? It is, I think Nicole said this in the last panel. The original purpose of regional theater was community-driven to tell the stories of your community, to tell the stories your community needs to hear. And if you're doing that in an authentic way, the community will hopefully respond. And you're absolutely right about a financial barrier. I think there are many models across the country. I think immediately of mixed blood in Minneapolis that has radical hospitality, which is free tickets. There are only so many paid tickets for every performance. Here at Cleveland Public Theater, we always maintain a pay what you can policy. Is that the right? Choose what you pay for all rush tickets. I like that distinction. I do too. And so that invitation is important to consider all factors of what would invite someone into your organization or potentially keep, not allow someone to come into that barrier. Tune in for the play, the artist, to change the organization and policies inside the organization that creates that welcoming environment. Absolutely. I do think it's an issue for the American Theater in general though, because not only can price be a barrier, but also just the sense of who belongs in that space and people feeling like I don't belong there. I don't know how to dress. I don't know how to act. I don't know what I'm in for. I'm not gonna understand it or I'm gonna, people are gonna look at me or all those kinds of barriers. So I think what you said about inviting, I happen, I would just like add to something you said, which I think you do practice, which is that it's more than just inviting people to come see a play. That I think that you guys practice inviting people into the process of making a play in various ways so that there's a kind of feeling embedded within various communities. For sure, inviting people in to tell their story. So there's, yeah, so engaging and inventing processes whereby people who may not ordinarily want to or have any relationship with theater becoming aware that it's a place that that individual can enter and feel comfortable. I guess is what I'm trying to say. We're not very audience oriented, honestly. We do some outward facing, as we call it, we do some outward facing programming in which we do invite people to pay what they can or choose their own ticket, a price. But one thing we've implemented, the people that come to our outward facing projects really love interacting with the playwright. And the playwrights, as all of you probably know, are not that keen on talking about their playwright after it's been read because it's a very vulnerable piece. So we've stopped talking about plays and we've started engaging all kinds of, different kinds of people who have some expertise or knowledge about the content. And we have started engaging with content experts. They aren't necessarily scholars or academics or anything. Just people who have something to offer and engaging the people who come, the audiences in content based conversations instead of the play. And that process has kind of forced us to really reach out into our community in a way that we hadn't done before. And so more people know about theater because of it. So are you saying like in say a reading you would have then somebody maybe from the community that the play is talking about or an occupational kind of profession would then kind of talk about, talk about their experience in that? Is that? We'll formulate each conversation very specifically. Like for example, last summer we worked on a play called Colonialism is Terrible but Fa is Delicious. And it was by a writer named Dustin Chin. And the play was about colonialism in Vietnam and food. And the way the food was involved in that colonial aspect. So it was French Indochina. There were all these French dishes that then, anyway, we found this woman. We had two people, one person who had actually written a cookbook based on the colonization of Vietnam and the way that had transformed over the last 40 years. She actually had written a cookbook. So she was talking about the food and the cookbook and where the influences came and how that related to the socioeconomic divide, et cetera. That's an example. Yeah, that's fabulous. So this would be outside of the playwright in the room writing and submitting it. Can you talk a little bit about what you look for in a submission that is outside of that traditional and hand in your script and what you look for in some of the materials, the proposal, the language. What do you want to see or feel good to produce the event and then maybe Amy, I know you spoke about the media playwright. Like how do you frame that for an organization and what is the, what is it? Yeah, it's a good question. It's a great question. It's a very different kind of process, right? Because I can't just necessarily read a script, a 60 page documentation of what people were 120. Nothing's wrong with Long Place. But no, it's a different conversation, eh? I think there are some key things and I'm gonna challenge myself to get this right. What I'm gonna say. You got this, Beth. But that's okay, because I can receive feedback. But there are a few things. Number one, who, how and who are you working with? How are you creating? And what is your experience in that? It doesn't mean you have to have this proven extraordinary track record, but you need to share how you have experience doing that. And so that's one thing. What is your creative process? We find that the more someone can truly articulate their creative process, the more window we have into understanding what they may or may not need. And then work samples are always really helpful if you have them, right? If you're a younger artist, you may not have work samples, but we all have this amazing thing now, which is so different than 11 years ago from when I first came on staff, we all have video cameras in our back pocket. So it's a heck of a lot easier to make a casual work sample than it was 10 years ago, right? So yeah, so those are some of the key things, I think. I think one of the biggest challenges sometimes is when someone is really curious to create their own piece in a devising method or in some other not traditional playwright in a room method, they really seek help in defining who those artists that they should be working with are, and that's hard. That's hard for me as a new play development supporter or a producer to really help you with because you've got to find your people. You've got to find your tribe, the people who you want to develop that relationship with. And so, I mean, that's a huge thing is, like you as that lead artist need to be driving that creative team because you know who you need in the room. Right. Is that okay, Molly? Okay, yeah, that's a good question. So for this one particular player, I think I'm going to hone in on this because I know it the best, you know, is to work on describing the project and its elements. So work on describing the project and its elements and then having a work sample is a different, it can be a different project. It can be a past project. So for example, when we were, when he was writing this proposal, there was no work sample. And he said, well, you know, we did this reading. I can send, you know, I said, but the reading doesn't have anything of what you're proposing. Don't you have something from the last project you did? Oh, yeah, I do, you know, and that that was very, a very powerful example. So for example, here's 30 seconds or 60 seconds of a project that I worked on that has some of the elements, it's different content, but just some of the elements that I'm proposing for this project. Here's a sample of my audio. You know, here's a visual sample. Here's a sample of, here's a video of some choreography, my aesthetic to give you an example of what kind of sort of work that I create, you know? And so that's one thing that I would recommend. But I think describing something, using imagistic language, I think is important. So rather than, you know, sort of like, here's the synopsis of my play. That's important, but it doesn't really give, it just tells me what the play, the arc of the play is, right? Here's the story or the way this play is going to be. And that's important, but I want to have a feeling for it. If it's not written, I would want to have a feeling for the imagery that's in it. So for example, this particular project that I've been talking about, one of the really important aspects of this is that it's a play about someone who reaches enlightenment, but the story is told backwards. So it's a very difficult dramaturgical effort because we're going down, you know, we're going down to unenlightened, you know, in a way. And you don't know, and so describing that, how that might work is very important, right? And that was actually left out of the description initially. And, you know, and so I think I would encourage the artist to say, this is, and it's the problem I'm trying to solve, you know, that you get to solve with me, producer. You know, you get to help me solve this very difficult dramaturgical problem. That's enticing, I think. I have a question, especially for me. We talk a lot of time. But they might like to hear her answer. The frustration I have is like, if you have two people and they're out on a date, and one of them really, all they want is sex, right? That's all they want, right? And the other person is like, wait a second, like, I want these other things. And it happens so often that playwrights come in and they're like, all I want, I mean, if they really want this is, I want all of Beth's producerial, line-producing skills. I want all the money that Raymond raises to make the play. And I want the stage and the awesome marketing from Caitlyn. Give it to me. And at the same time, we're like, but that's not the most important thing we have to give. And then it's like, how do we get into a place? And then the playwrights are like, hey, Caitlyn, which I did. Because they're like, what's wrong with my flat? What's wrong with my sex? It's like... And you don't want to have sex with me. That's a really lame question. Like, all you want is to have sex with us. You don't listen to that, too. And there's almost this presumption that like, well, that's your job to have sex with us. And what does that feel sometimes? To your feelings. The field of playwrights and theaters just do better about being more upfront and consensual and actually asking for consent and understanding that, like, we both have a lot to risk here. We both have a lot to risk here. We both have a lot to offer. Yeah. Well, I think the question is very deep in a lot of ways and really calls to a lot of the research that's been done about the plight of American playwrights that kind of feeds into that dysfunctional dynamic that you're describing. So, you know, playwrights kind of traditionally, and I think that's beginning to change and has changed quite a bit because of the dialogue, have traditionally felt that they're on the lower end of the stick and that they're working really hard on their art and that they, that, oh, and they have to produce it, too? Maybe, you know. So, I think that the sector dialogue in how playwrights are integrated into the process of both developing and producing a work will help with that. That's my take on it. And a lot of playwrights, I've noticed that we've worked with, you know, in the past while coming into the theater in major ways, do tend to feel more agency and that has engendered more of a collaborative spirit. And I think that it kind of depends on where the playwright, and maybe, Eric, you can talk about this a little bit, too, that how a playwright, where the work is. So say, for example, you've had like three or four, you know, premieres across the country of a particular play and you were involved, pretty involved in creating that work and pretty involved in the production. But you've moved on to write your next five plays and several of them are now premiering, you know, and CPT calls you and said, we really want to work with you on this play, you know, but you've already had several productions of it and you can't be involved. So I think, you know, it depends, I think, on where, you know, where you are in the process of a particular project and what else you actually have on your plate as a playwright. Oftentimes playwrights are juggling five or six commissions. They're juggling maybe a teaching gig and several other premieres at the same time. And so I think that coming to an understanding of where each of the entities are in the, you know, and what's needed and then scheduling that in such a way that is workable, I think that's something I would say. I do think what you're talking about, possibly Raymond, and maybe I can address this a little bit too, is perhaps a writer who isn't as experienced, hasn't had an opportunity for a production and perhaps hasn't had the enough experience to understand all the elements that go into producing a play and what kind of partnership can occur. And so, you know, there's a little bit of, you know, patience maybe and also in saying that, you know, as a producer saying, we here at this X Theater are looking to collaborate with the playwriting artists that we're working with. And this is what our collaborations look like. You know, we're not here just to serve you. We are here to create relationship. And if that, how can we do that with you? Because we really like this project. And if that conversation starts to go awry, then like you said earlier, maybe it's not the right collaboration. And that's quite disappointing, I'm sure. Does that help? And that, did you, you know, I know you talk to Raymond all the time, but we don't maybe talk to you all the time. So what are you thinking about? I mean, I think, and the movie that just played in my head as Amy was sharing, that's one of my directorial, whatever, but was this idea of trust, of trust. I would certainly hope that playwrights or creators would trust the producing organization that is producing, especially a premiere of their play, that there is a trust built. And that that's a two-way street. And that, you know, with trust, you must assume good intentions on both sides. And so that's important. But it's also everyone has the right to break up. I was wondering when we were going to get that out, just to break up. And honestly, like just continuing, I was like, well, you know, sometimes, sometimes you put out just to like see where the relationship could go. But yeah, sorry. I think there's, I mean, to use a completely different metaphor. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. Caterpult ourselves out of that one. You know, there's, I like to use the term investment. You know, let's, you know, get transactional. That, you know, that I think that producers and playwright development labs, we're looking at an investment in the work, right? And I think that within the context of an investment, you know, you're looking at what you're going to reap from that investment, right? So those, those, from that vantage point, I think that you do have to engage in a really intensive trust relationship that, that this, for my perspective, this playwright is going to be able to deliver. This playwright is going to be able to deliver. They're, they're able to rock and roll with the process. And, and that I trust that because I've established a relationship with this person and I've read their work and I've done my homework and conversely, the playwright needs to be able to trust that the theater is going to be able to deliver, that they're not going to fall apart a week before opening, that they're not going to, you know, lose their, you know, lead actor the day before opening, you know, that they're going to be able to deliver on, on the promise of your play and dig in and find the things in the play that are hidden, it's hidden gem, you know. And, and so I think that, I think one of the missing ingredients there is that I think playwrights do wonder what, other than gaining some visibility and also getting to see their play performed, you know, and have people come to it and making art, you know, what their investment in your theater is going to, to do for them ultimately. And so I think that's really what we're talking about when you're talking about building a relationship and trust and being able to articulate what, what that ongoing thing is going to mean. You know, I helped build that theater. My work brought in, you know, the largest audience they, they've had, you know, this year. I, I was able to reach, you know, and speak to my community in this really important way and five young people decided that they wanted to try to write a play. You know, these are the things that as a playwright I might be able to do my investment. You know, does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Tim. I like to collaborate with everyone who wants to work for my piece. But I do think that, you know, it's important because I really do think the trends are happening for a reason and I really do appreciate hearing or the producer's side on all of this. I think my only question is that everything else that goes on that sustains, like I'm a two income person. I have a job and I do whatever theater work pays. How, I don't know if I have time for grant writing. I want to say I don't really know how to look and still have room for that. Is there any networks or even mentorship opportunities that we know of, either of you, that could probably help ease that process along so I could be my own advocate better? Yeah, I think... Thank you, Tim. Thanks, Tim. I think locally and I'm sure there will probably be some help from members of the audience that perhaps helped me. But I want to say that the CAC offers Kyoga Arts and Culture, offers individual artists like professional development kind of training. I don't personally know the ins and outs so if anyone in the audience... They're very receptive though. That is really awesome. So I know historically they certainly had different convenings and sessions and workshops for just that purpose. So I want to feel as well. Yes. Right there. And there are grant writers in the community who you can hire. I can't afford it. A lot of grant writers won't get paid unless you get the grant. I mean, some of them work on the commission of if we're going to get it, then I get a percentage of it. Nicole, did you want to say something to that? Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. Says her collaborator. You know, I think it's different for every project. It really is. I think of when I'm collaborating on The Loosh Sisters, my ideal collaboration is pizza and beer with my best... A lot of beer. You know me too. But no, my ideal collaboration in that environment is pizza and beer with my best friends sitting around a table and us trying to make each other laugh. But also being really frank and like getting in fights sometimes. Not mean fights, you know, just like verbal disagreements. Other times, I think it's just having that open dialogue of like, this is kind of how I'm seeing the... These are the movies that are playing in my head. But I'll be frank and honest. I often hold back some of my comments because I don't want to over inform. I don't want to try to fix a playwright the problems I think may be in a play. I don't want to try to fix. I want to try to give a playwright enough information of kind of how I'm feeling or responding for that to maybe inspire them. Maybe to a fault. No fault in that. I'm a very specific individual. So I get really like nitty gritty and I think that's a weakness personally of mine. And so I battle against that when I'm working specifically with creators unless it's a loose sister or something. I can say whatever I want to say to them. But yeah, I think it's always... But it's always different. And it's... I think it's often driven by the lead creator what that collaboration should be. Well, we have a program called the Producing Partnership Initiative and that is something where whereby a project that we're interested we feel is really confined to home particularly in the Bay Area with a producer that we would then partner with that producer to provide kind of the care and feeding of the playwright is like what I like how I like to frame it but essentially making sure that the playwright can be in the room for rehearsals or some portion of rehearsals by providing travel and housing by providing dramaturgy by providing space and time and funds to do more development on the project before rehearsals start. All kinds of things like that. So one of the ways that I think for us at Playwrights Foundation works best in that collaboration is being very much a part of the whole production process and essentially being a fly on the wall like going to production meetings going to design meetings and having an artistic part to play whether it's as an artistic director or a dramaturge. So the Playwrights Foundation isn't just sort of in the background going like this but that we're very involved in how the production is flowing forward and that's one of my ideal collaborative journeys. Something I didn't think of when I was speaking earlier was as a director like right what is that collaboration like all of the collaboration like once those rehearsals start me personally is not me organization this is me as an artist I want all of the feedback I want all of the conversation I want it all because it's just going to help me learn your intention more and hopefully our intentions will merge and become one. I think we are out of time but I want to thank Beth and Amy so much and thank you all for coming.