 Reactions Trail report on covering Icewap's 18 billion-nair terror financing network at Human Rights Writers Association of Nigeria, Lament President Bahrae's lack of effort. Well, this is plus politics. I am Mary Anacorn. Outrage, anger and disgust were some of the responses to a report by the Intergovernmental Action Group on money laundring in West Africa that the terror group Islamic States of West Africa province Icewap moved a whopping 18 billion nair animal revenues through the Nigerian financial system to fund its activities. Now the federal government had been criticized for its failure to track the money and the movement of these funds by the terrorist groups, Boko Haram and Icewap, through the country's financial system. In the same vein, the Human Rights Writers Association of Nigeria had lamented President Mohammad Buhari's government's lack of efforts to evolve the needed intelligence gathering infrastructure to track the movements of this cash by terrorists and their mastermind within the country. Joining us to break this down is security experts Dixon Osaji and public affairs analyst Ambrus Igboki. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. So Ambrus, it's interesting. Let's start from the Human Rights Writers Association and what they had to say about the President's efforts. I'd like to take your mind back to the fact that the UAE government had arrested and prosecuted certain people who they had named to be finances of terrorism in the country. But in Nigeria, we've heard the federal government again and again say well they're doing it but they were not going to name and shame. Do you think that these people also fall in the category of rather do you think that these people are some of the reasons why government has been said to have failed in tracking and following the money? Well first of all terrorism as a banditry and insurgency are the things thriving currently in Nigeria only needs to one pointer and the pointer is that it's a thriving business and that is why it has been sustained for a very long time. The man you saw who was allegedly the founder of the forum remember that since 2009 so what has been happening is that other groups came in from the Middle East from North Africa, from Libya and other places and there's some Nigeria. What has been happening is that you can see that there's an upsurge in the cases of before now it was restricted to the North East and they were having issues of banditry, Boko Haram, isolated to follow government but in time Johnata was leaving the presidency they were controlling 17 local governments but all this were restricted to the North East. Gradually they moved to the North West, moved to the North Central and then before we would know what is happening they are everywhere in the country. They are in the South South, they are in the South East, they are in the South West and they are all about the country. Now this suggests one fact that is a thriving business. First of all I think we had a little problem with Ambrose's network connection but we have Dixon Osado joining us. Dixon you used to be a soldier and you obviously are security experts. Why do you think it's taken the federal government so long to name and shame or even track the financiers of terrorism in Nigeria? I don't know if you ask me that question. I don't know. Thank you for having me. You rightly made a very clear in your analysis that the UAE government apprehended seven sponsors of terrorism in Nigeria and they were meant to pay the consequence but here I don't know the reason why our government have failed to name and shame these criminal elements here in Nigeria. Terrorism has been striving just like Ambrose, it has become a good business here in Nigeria but for me I will hold the Nigerian intelligence network accountable because we cannot have an effective intelligence mechanism in Nigeria and we still have this criminal and this sponsor of terrorism excelling within the conference for a country. It's a failure on intelligence from the directorates of military intelligence and other intelligence network that has supposed to stage a state operation against these conflict entrepreneurs that are benefiting from the security situation in Nigeria. So what I would advise the government to do is to start naming and sharing those that they've arrested. I think some few weeks back we were meant to understand that over 400 people were arrested within the Bury the Change and what's happening within those arrests. Are they finding their way out or are they being bailed or released? If we don't create an effective punishment network or punishment mechanism, Mary Ann, I tell you for free, people will just feel that it's okay to come to Nigeria as a sponsor of terrorism, sponsor of insurgency, make more money and the government are not capable already. I will bring you to work. I want to make reference to the Turkish leader who was in Nigeria recently, Tayyb Erwan, and he also punted to certain people, certain elements in the country to having been those who were behind the attempt to topple his government saying that these people are terrorists and they were being harbored in the country. I'd also like to take your mind back to some guns and some catch of weapons that were intercepted. The first sets of them I think were intercepted at the port and then another was intercepted in the middle of town and most of these catches were traced back to Turkey. That's one. Again, how does the government deal with this issue if somebody like former president Goodlock Jonathan had said that sponsors of Boko Haram are even in his cabinet? How do you blame security agencies for not being able to get the right intel if these things are politically sponsored according to what the former president has said? Even this government has also made remarks such as that that there might even be sponsors of Boko Haram in government. How does government fight itself? Can you really single-handedly blame the security intelligence network as you said? Thank you very much, Maria. That's a very intelligent question. That's why we need to start looking at people-centric protection because what we have presently in Nigeria is regime protection. Most of the police leaders, army leaders are all about protecting the regime. They are not people-centric. They are regime-centric. People-centric in the sense that they are supposed to uphold the constitution of the federal republic of Nigeria for protecting lives and property. But each time an incident transpired, our security leaders, first of all, want to protect the regime. If we start looking at protecting the people first, I think some people in government will be arrested, perhaps even the security agent are ready to take the ball by the horn because security is defeated by our politicians and security leaders are looking at regime protection. We must take a departure from regime protection, Mary Ann, because each time we look at the regime protection, we are not going to get a hold of people who are creating unrest in this great nation. Regime protection must be eliminated. If the president of Nigeria has hands in sponsoring terrorism, whatever the case may be, there are processes to follow in impeaching the president from government and from power or any government that is being suspected of sponsoring terrorism. The peace meant capability here in Nigeria has been deflected so hard that we don't have the capacity and capability and political will to impeach any government or any president or anyone that is fighting against Nigeria's state. So I would tell you for free that I'm going to hold the security agency responsible because when you look into the global network, every nation that is excelling today, Mary Ann, the Americans, the United Kingdom, the Russia, the Germany, Turkey very well, the security agents are more of people-centric and not regime-centric. If we start looking at people-centric protection, people-centric security and not regime-centric, I tell you most guys that sponsor terrorism and hide under the guise of government will be fetched out because our police, our soldiers, our military needs to start looking at people-centric protection. Ambrose, I'm coming back to your apologies for the network, the disconnection. He's talking about people-centric policing or making sure that whatever is done is done in the interests of the people, but that is in a society where the laws work, the systems work. Now we're bringing it back to Nigeria where our systems or the people, the politicians, the elites seem to be bigger than the institutions. So we have bigger men and women, stronger men and women, and weaker institutions. So how do we even get that? Where do we start from in dealing with that? Again, I want to take you to Kaduna State and Zamfara State, states that have been some form of a theatre for both Banditry and Boko Haram. These governors have strived over the years to deal with these issues. Some of them might be homegrown. Some of them, of course, have been as a result of the fact that these networks have spread. But we also have a platu state, if I'm not mistaken, where the governor has been-I think it's a better state- where the governor has been calling on the federal government day in, day out, in fact. He has become a hymn versus the federal government issue in dealing with the issue of, you know, Banditry and the killings, terrorism in general. Do you think that maybe these states have not necessarily done all that they need to do and that's why we're where we are? And again, should the federal government be the ones tracing these monies and financiers of these terrorism activities in those states? I'm not saying federal government can, but should that not be the job of state governors? Well, first of all, the federal government has what we call the legitimate instrument of terror. The constitution has given it to the federal government. The federal government is in charge of the police. The federal government is in charge of the DMI, the NIA, the navy, the army, the police. They are in charge of the customs, the officers of the correctional centres. So the civil defence, so all the apparatus of the security are under the exclusive list under the federal government. But our constitution, chickenly, in a very cheeky manner, said that the chief security officer of the state is the governor. But the governor does, the commissioner of police does not receive instructions from the governor. The GEOC, so head of the GEOC command brigade do not receive instructions. The director of SSS or directors of other military agencies or paramilitary agencies do not receive instructions from the governor. So the governor is helpless in most of the time. The GEOC can only do with local vigilantes and some other things it can cook up in its state. And we have seen issues where there are security meetings where governors give instructions and nothing is done about it. One is in Eidolgu State here in 2016, where there was a security meeting held on a Sunday about an impending attack on Mimbo in the Uzuwani local government area. And then the next day, as early as 4am, there struck me when there was a security meeting held. So there are issues like that that are bound. Then when it comes to the owners of the financial institutions, the financial institutions are regulated by the federal government. The Central Bank of Nigeria regulates the banks, the commercial banks and all the merchant banks and all the banks that are operational. So also the instruments for the road to change is also regulated by the federal government. The stock exchange is operated by the federal government. The airways of Nigeria is regulated by the federal government. Let me come in there. I'm sorry, I do not want to cut off your train of thoughts, but quickly, as much as we all know that we're running some form of unitary system and these people all get their orders from the centre, every single police officer, soldier, naval officer, air force officer, even the guys that you talked about that work in government parastatals or ministries, departments and agencies have sworn an oaths to defend the people of Nigeria. And the people of Nigeria are not only in Abuja. So it means that whether a governor gives you an order or not, should these people not have the interest or the safety of the people in the areas that they've been assigned to, should that not be a priority instead of waiting for a governor to give an order? First of all, when you have a unitary system like that, the police, you cannot police the nation with a unitary system where one man sits in Abuja and answers the inspector general of police. And then we have a commissioner sitting in the state capital, running states, a state like Cardona State. Somebody sitting in Cardona wants to run that kind of land mass. So what we are saying, first of all, the structure is defective, the administrative structure is defective and is expecting the war of terrorism. Terrorism like this and insurgency has to be a community-based effort because it is only the community that can know where to fish after us people. And that is why in countries like where Dickson has mentioned, like Europe and America, we see that their security dovetails stick to the grass roots, the counties, the walls. They have disabled police in the communities. And these are the people that do the rail fighting. The federal police like the FBI and CIE, they are not into most of it. They do more of intelligence gathering. Why are the people that do the rail dirty jobs and the people in the communities? And that is what Nigeria should have done. But as we continue going, somebody in Nabuja wants to hold the power, wants to control the power. And the governors are not even looking at that because they go with unauthorised security people. Secondly, when you talk of the financial institutions, last time the CPI came hard on the Bitcoin operators saying that they use Bitcoins to run some illegal things. We were thinking that, okay, is this part of terrorism? Did they have a link to insurgency or something? But again, we now found out that the people that are these insurgents or these terrorists that demand for ransom don't collect ransom in Bitcoins. They collect this ransom in cash. Where do they send the cash to? How do they pay the money? Some of them even follow the victims to automated tele-machines ATM to withdraw money. Some of them collect transfers. How do they now get the money out? Therefore, there is something wrong with our financial institutions. There's something wrong with the banks where you cannot... Meanwhile, you and I, who are responsible citizens, we will go to the bank. I want to do a transaction beyond 1 billion naira. We are told that they will report us to EFCC, report us to this, this and that so that they can make sure that we are cleared. For example, people are moving 18 billion naira to the banks, our financial services and a sector. And yes, somebody is keeping a blind eye to it. So it all goes to say that there is something we are not doing well and if we do not wake up now to tackle these menace because where in your country is now seen as a way to have a slush fund for illegal activities. Look at the issue. These things are interconnected. Look at the issue of drug, of this meth going on and all the drugs coming into Nigeria our use are suffering from. These are connections to all these slush funds coming in, where they can come into Nigeria, London wanting to terrorism through banditry, through insurgency, through drugs, and they move it out from our system. This is the only country where you are not question how you raise your money. Somebody who was four years today can wake up tomorrow and build a fantastic structure that build a supermarket or a plaza and then it goes to church and gets... Oh, my goodness. I think that we lost that connection with Ambrose again. Let me come back to you, Osaje. Interesting points that he has raised. He actually quickly got into the questions that I was going to ask you, but isn't it interesting that a president, Mohammad Bohari who is the head of ECOWAS does not or did not even realise what's happening within his own domain. He took an ECOWAS to uncover this financial transfer or misconduct within our banking system and, of course, these terrorists. Now, he's also made mention of the fact that we're a corrupt system. I'd like to take your mind back to the fact that Twitter was shut down because the federal government did say that Twitter was being used to cost some form of uprising in the country. As we speak we hear that they're going to try to block all streaming platforms or regulate it. Let's not forget that WhatsApp and Facebook is also part of the next process that they are saying that they're going to look into. Just as Ambrose said, they've also at some point, you know, blocked the Bitcoin usage. All of these avenues are avenues in which legit businesses are being done. But then in a bank, if I go there, I'm just a journalist and I do a transaction that's over a million error, it's flat. But how do these monies go through these same banking systems and now it took an echo us to find it? How do we deal with the corruption in our financing system? Well, thank you Mary-Anne, such an interesting question. You know, when it comes to terrorism financing I think the central bank of Nigeria should up their game because if they don't up their game that tells you there's compromise. Does the central bank have a game in the first place that they're supposed to up? I'm just curious. Oh yes, they should. During the end starts of 2020 last year, they came up with some list of people that sponsored the end starts. So if the central bank of Nigeria can come up with some list of sponsors at the end starts rally 2020, then they have the ability to also fetch out sponsors of terrorism because we must be very clear before you can sponsor terrorism through the bank, there are three process to follow. First four process is placements, the second process is layering, and the third process is integration. You place the money first to the bank, at this time the bank and management officials receive the money, then layering the money goes through layering, whether you're transferring it to somebody or you're using it for a certain payment, then from layering it goes to integration. So from this three process, if the bank system cannot identify a threat or someone trying to sponsor terrorism, I tell you the truth, Jerry's a compromise out here to play, because terrorism financing is a very very serious business and we must also start looking at the change as well. What are the regulations? What are the regulators regulating on the change because that is one of the weak points in Nigeria. Mary-Anne, you talked about federal government trying to stop some people trying to stream or streaming or Twitter, whatever the case may be. It's so sad and regrettable that we have the government or your regime that are not interested in policing the people, protecting the people rather they are attacking the problem. There are two ways to problem solving. If you don't solve the problem, there's no problem. You don't solve the problem. How do you solve the problem is through operational design. It's not all about attacking the problem. You need to start looking at solving the problem. The people of Nigeria are doing the problem of this government. Why are they much more interested in Twitter? Why are they much more interested in YouTube? They are not even looking at threat assessment. That tells you that the National Secretary of Nigeria should revamp because if he knows what he's supposed to do, he should be able to carry out a threat assessment of this country and push it to the presidency because there are priorities of threats. Twitter, YouTube is never the threat of Nigeria. Terrorism is the biggest threat now in Nigeria. Let us treat it. Quickly, in one's sentence Ambrose, do you see the government acting on this particular reports that has been released by Echoes or is it just going to gather and then it would die a natural death? Yes, the government will act. Let me tell you how they will act. The Minister for Information will call a press conference and debunk the reports as apartheid, or as new colonialism, or as people who are trying to denigraze the hard work the government is doing. They will take the report with a pinch of salt. They will see it as a direct attack because this government have said that anything that is, that you are not talking about in favour of them is seen as an attack. And that is why I said that some people around the government, the president, are not doing him any good. They are making the president look bad. The president is trying his own efforts, but I think he is being misadvised by some people because they are making it look as if, once you are not in agreement with some certain policies or statements of government, you are an enemy. We all hold this country together and we want it to succeed. We want our president to succeed, but when he is being psychopathic and telling him that the things that are not true, it all be hyped on the rest of the citizens to stand in, the countries that are contrary, the countries that are not actually, should not be consumed as things that are against the government. But I do not see the government acting. OK, and of Zajie, Dixie So, Zajie, thank you so much for speaking with us. We appreciate your thoughts. We really hope the government does something about this report. Fa ydych chi'n gynghwyl hwyl y byddai'r fawr yn dweud ei ddwyr i'w pob sydd ymlaen i'w 80% o ymddymu'i ond yn ymlaen i ymddymu'i Afryd. Mae'n Mary Annacol i hollwch yn gyflei'r youtube ac yn ymddymu'i Afryd, rydych chi'n cael eu syniad ar y cyfarion. Llywodraeth sfullio â'r gwyleu ac aethau aethau aethau.