 You're welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. When I'm talking about cessation, the self-determination, Southeast, Southwest groups are pushing for cessation in the country. And we know that thousands of people gathered in Ibadon, the capital of your state, on Saturday to demand for Odu Dua Republic. The rally was led by a group known as the Ilanormo Odua. And this is the latest in calls for self-determination by groups who say they represent ethnic nationalities. Now, there's Sondir Bohu who has been pushing for a European nation. And there's the indigenous people of Biafra, iPop, who has been clamoring for Biafra. And the big question is, should Nigeria break up? Would restructuring be better? Or would we continue with the structure? Or should we continue with that structure that we currently have in the country? And we have joining us to discuss this legal practitioner and public affairs analyst, Mr. Anthony Odiadi. So we're joining us in just a moment, but that's really the crux of our discussion this morning about all the several causes, the agitation in Nigeria for separate groups, separate regions, separate countries. And we've seen the presidency, we've seen the minister of information, Lai Mohamed has been speaking, asking Nigerians not to take that seriously, not to listen to it, saying there are more things that unite us as a country, as a people, than the things that divide us. And just a few minutes ago, we had Tunicola Wali who said that in fact, since independence, that the tension we've had in the country has been we're dealing ethnic groups, not against several ethnic groups. So we will get clarification, you know, with our guests later on on the show, but that really is what we're talking about. Is Nigeria better united, or are we better off? You know, so you're a Bayan Nation, an Ibo Nation, a Hausa Nation. Well, one thing that every now and then, maybe on social media or through on YouTube, you know, just different platforms, you always get to see the beauty that is Nigeria. What's its name now? Taiwai, no, I believe. That's its name, the videographer, made, showed us very beautiful documentaries on the Haena men of Nigeria. Yes. He's also done some street fighting. He does a lot of these very, very beautiful documentaries that just show you the beauty that truly is. When we say that Nigeria is filled with beauty and diversity and culture and history and all of that. YouTubers do a great job of showing us that part of Nigeria. Of seeing that part of Nigeria. What then hurts is how we have all of that and we have continued to let it, you know, go to waste. We've continued to let our insecurity and our politics and our tribal differences and our religious differences to blind us, you know, and keep us away from truly, you know, enjoying what Nigeria is. Nigeria is a beautiful nation. Indeed. I would agree when people say that there is beauty in our diversity. The vice president says that, you know, a couple more times than normal. There is that, you know, part. But it shouldn't also stop you from asking the question, is Nigeria really working? Is it working for us all? Is it working right from, you know, our foundation, right from our independence from the 1999 constitution to, you know, the agreements that has put us together as a nation to when the British decided, you know, how we were going to be set up and who was going to be taking charge, is Nigeria really, really working? Can it work? Yes. But is it working? Look, I mean, take a look at what you're seeing on your screen. They're basically clamoring for the Odua Nation. You can see thousands or hundreds of, you know, Yoruba people who've come out, you know, saying this is what they want, that they're done with all the insecurity in their lands, carrying placards and, you know, wearing t-shirts, basically. They've come all out with this saying this is what they want. They want a separate Yoruba nation. Really, where do we go from here? We have a track up here, you know, leaders of this movement speaking and letting us know what exactly they want. On the way to our break, I spent six days there. I really don't want to witness that again. Since I regained my freedom, I've lost count of Yoruba people that have been kidnapped, made, raped, tortured and killed in the process. We are a people who strive for the development of the community, not of the individual, like other, and that is why our departure is imminent. We are mixed up with some ethnicities that are devoted to the perpetuation of the individual. Well, a very interesting, you know, clip there and, you know, the man who said he has been kidnapped and he was kidnapped rather and he spent about six days there. Of course, our hearts go out to him and his family. I don't think anybody wants to experience that. I don't think anybody who, you know, is living and working in Nigeria today wants to experience what it feels like to be kidnapped. And so we will never belittle the severity of the security situations that we're currently dealing with. I can imagine those families who struggle to, you know, all of their family members annually don't make up to, you know, five million nair, getting one of their, you know, their siblings kidnapped. Maybe because the person is a banker or the person is a doctor, struggling basically to keep, you know, food on the table and then they demand 50 million nair where's that family going to raise that money from? There's no rich uncles. There's nobody who's going to give you 50 million nair to, you know, get that family member out. There's a lot of people who have suffered from the level of insecurity that we're currently dealing with. And we cannot really, I think it would be fair to say that this is maybe the most chaotic that I've seen Nigeria with regards to insecurity. But also the clips and those people who are gathered there I think it's also fair to say that they don't necessarily represent the views 100% of all of the people of the Southwest, a lot of people in Europe are, you know, kingdom. Same way, the IPOP and ESN and Masoba and the likes and their agitation don't necessarily represent the views of all of the evils and everybody, you know, from the Southeast. But are there concerns genuine? Do the things that they are saying make sense? Do the reasons why they want self-determination make sense? You would of course also have to, you know, agree with them that they have strong points why they are making these demands because Nigeria for them is not working. You know, the levels that they as a people should, that's what they believe. The levels that they should have gotten to as a people, as a tribe, as a section, they maybe would have been able to achieve a whole lot more with the resources available to them. But they cannot because they are a part of this entity called Nigeria. The same thing with the Southeast. They feel like they have been untreated for so many years, well, poorly treated rather, for so many years. They feel like they have been sidelined for so many years. They feel like they have been, even right from, you know, after the Civil War, they have, Nigeria has continued to suppress them and they believe that if they can get out of this entity called Nigeria, they will be able to have a more, you know, flourishing life. The Ibo's will be able to thrive in any part of the world and they say it all the time, that there are businesses who do better and all of that. Those who have the argument that crisis happened, you know, within, you know, every section of the country, that Europas have fought each other, Ibo's have fought each other, that, you know, Northerners have fought each other before, you know, I don't necessarily agree with that, you know, and I would say that that is not a good enough reason for you to say, no, don't go anywhere because if you go, the corruption will still stay with you. It's not necessarily, you know, a good enough reason. Or no, don't go anywhere because, you know, you guys have been fighting each other since. I'm really eager to bring in a legal practitioner guest because we need to look into the legal implications of the secessionist or movement or, you know, clamos for self-determination. You know, I found that Nigeria is a signatory to this act and they've actually, you know, gone ahead to domesticate it. It's the charter, the African Charter on Human and People's Rights, Ratification and Enforcement Act. Nigeria domesticated this act and by implication, what it means is that, in fact, let's read from article 20, subsection one of the act. It provides expressly that people shall have an unquestionably and inalienable right to self-determination. And that, you know, self-determination is a fundamental right of any, you know, people to freely determine their own political status and freely pursue their own socio-economic and cultural development, right? So if self-determination is guaranteed by this act with Nigeria is a signatory too, that means that parties in Nigeria, people in Nigeria can freely decide to break away. So I don't know if... On paper. I don't, exactly. I don't know if we were sleeping when we signed that document, because if you check, you know, all the documents, all the treaties that Nigeria is a signatory too and just how they break the laws and stipulations of those acts, it will make you really ask questions like why do you sign this? Why are you a signatory to this? If you don't, if you're not ready to obey them. So if Nigeria is a signatory to this and has domesticated this, meaning you're saying that you've signed this, Nigerians should be able to break away. Why then should the government be, you know, attacking, you know, people who say they want to break out of Nigeria, they want self-determination, they want to found your own state, their own country? Do you understand? Because that would be Nigeria speaking again. That would seem to be hypocritical. Because you actually signed this and say you have the right to go ahead and have your own state. The government is not necessarily attacking, you know, maybe except the South, but the situation is, and they begin to arrest. What really is that? Well, good to know we have our guest, Mr. Anthony Odiadi. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for joining us on the breakfast this morning. We're speaking about self-determination. So many ethnic groups in Nigeria are asking to have their own independent state. And we wanted to get in your perspective regarding the law, seeing that Nigeria as a country has actually signed the African Charter on Human and People's Rights. So if Nigeria has domesticated this act and it's saying that people of Nigeria have the right to, you know, form their own political entity, their own social-economic, you know, group or body or state, what really is it and where do we stand when we have situations where the government, you know, can get to gatherings like that and basically begin to tear gas them and arrest members? Thank you. The idea of the Charter that actually puts certain rights in the hands of the people who have formed nations, particularly following the Partisan Bactics Act. After the Partisan Bactics Act into states, a lot of groups were left together. I would say boundaries that were defined by the European powers in 1884. So the African Charter or People's Human Rights, you know, now seems to recognize that every group must have the right to their own self-identity. They must have the right to the way they want to live and survive as a people. And that right must be acceded to by Africans too, you know, as a permanent right. So just like right before, Nigeria signed that Charter and probably has domesticated the right as part of the couple of laws within the United States. Now, there's the political will to implement the right that you have domesticated. And that's when I give you a clue. This whole thing is coming out in the Pintua region. The question will be why are we having consistent education? Why do we have separatist importance within the Nigeria School? You have to remember the Nigeria School of Magametian between the Lagos Colony the Southern Protectorate and the Northern Protectorate which occurred in the Northern Protectorate. And then thereafter, 1939 the Northern Protectorate was between Eastern and Western region before they became the Northern region. So we mentioned we have not been able to evolve and reconcile with some of our differences into a functional entity that everybody will see as well. We have been a failure, failure of governance, failure of people integrating properly and the sense of alienation the sense of marginalization and the crime that we have been going through coming towards what we are today and all the struggles the power that we are trying to do that's why you find that the agitation of your persistence if you speak of agitation if you speak of agitation where your mind thought it was beautiful because it was beautiful put this to test put it to test and the people that were struggling after the civil war we seem to have come back nonetheless because of the agitation the failure of the agitation to accommodate the aspiration that we have been is what normally fit into this idea that people believe that they should go their own way so that they may be better able to realize their potential Mr. Odiadi, Mr. Odiadi I need to draw your attention to this taking a look at world politics you find other countries self-independent, self-determination you have the classical case in Africa of South Sudan we know that in 2011 United States recognized them as an independent stage, breaking away from the country but when it comes to Nigeria now I like that you reference the Biafranseval war because that's one case that comes to mind and it seems that that event in history and all the debts on destruction just paints a bad picture for Nigeria that makes it seem synonymous to debts, destruction and war and conflict is it possible for the Nigerian states to have breakaway states to have self-determination without the violence that we saw back in the 1960s of course it's very possible nothing states that people cannot come together and negotiate the structure of the food we've had it done for a long time we've had the national conform the things that world people were put into before the quality the structure was before revenue formula the food structure bureaucratic component all of these the political architecture of the country all of these were born by the way earlier they had a good confidence they have good confidence to create the whole Nigerian structure and all the part of the world but when they came back they interpreted it as they will yes the Nigerian operation relieves the need and that we are at home with what actually what I'm saying it is very easy for the country to sit back and say anybody who is educated to look into the program because the first thing we are better off together as the people but if some people begin to have the sense about the nation they do have the sense but their their purposes are not properly taking care of the people the Nigerian federation or that they believe that they are oppressed or oppressed the way that other people are doing our communion master has the power to entities like not Ireland you know and when they were tired of the European Union the good edge there is no point the most important thing because that's why we keep talking about fighting fighting fighting the the activity we are working is the separate people the idea of the group we do not recognize Nigerian state we do not recognize Nigerian values we want to be left alone it's also you know it's out there I don't know if we are not biologizing we use violence to resolve the problem deploy the army to go and fight and that's the room the perspective like you just mentioned from Nova Nigeria might be a little different from what it is in the south west and in the southeast but it's also a good point that you made we should also maybe also squeeze in the conversation of Spain and Catalonia at a time like this they also are having their own struggles but I want you to speak on why it seems like we are at the height of these conversations on self-determination 10 years ago it maybe wasn't this bad but in the last few years we've had these conversations more than ever before and we've had more sections of the country joining and also share their own you know cries for self-determination what do you think may have changed in the last few years one of the things I've seen one of the things I've seen is testing is the failure of the economy to create you the system the life is cheap and it's secure the economic downturn which has been pushed out and the feeling that certain people are much protected more others that people have taken care of you can see the public of the capitalism and the economy falling in the middle part of the state and many people believe that they can protect themselves better that's why you saw things like Amitabh and coming out you saw things like Usthan as a people in the boat you saw things like Ibiwago and all of these things coming up these are aspects of self-help and self-protection and how do you go through that I hope you have your own territorial authority both of them okay the response from the government always is and it was one of the things that we shared in the news this morning that secession should be ignored you've also mentioned that we continue to use brute force to quell any discussion on secession from the signs that you see is it looking like regardless of how much it is held this is something that is very likely to still occur and the government is only just delaying you know the timing yes I hope the government sits down to ignore the reasons why people are increasing and seeking to separate the impulse you will need the tendencies will be more it will not be something that the army can solve because the army is made up of Nigerians except you won't import a separate army to outside to come and transport a pacification in those areas we are seeking to build a separate way and that's why you said you were talking about you know some confederation to the center the power of the center to appropriate to to impose certain code but it's alienating to others it's been limited the government dismissively say it's not succession you have to come to want to do when people come to want to do a dialogue you get to do the business from it they are seeking to leave the country now we have an output we have to do a republic we have a Nigerian republic we have a woman of republics coming out there must be a reason why people want to do it or there must be a reason why they are thinking that the production as possible is not representative of the interest nor does it help them to reach their own aspiration so and the world is not going to stand idly by if people are compelled or forced to be in an agreement they find oppressive and that's why it's not time to do that game you saw East Timor you saw an elite war it's not a miracle they sat down they went away they sat down and went away yes there was some traffic but they moved on so in multi-technical we have realized that we cannot push people together except you have a framework in which each group has a center if you are saying we need to have a framework to make this work and you have agreed that the agitations of these groups are justified based on the insecurity in the country marginalization and all the other factors would we need to convene another national conference to work our constitution to make sure that everybody feels part of the team yes I agree but the point would be why do you continue to reinvent the wheel there is a document the document of 24 people in there bring that document bring a collection of people across the country let them look at the document that document took almost nine months to prepare you know eminent Nigerian bourgeois professional so starting the document and take out the good nuggets in the document is to make up the people from where we are to a better example you know so we don't need to be reinventing the wheel becoming new conferences every time we want the document we can write us but if the government says we don't want to work without documents okay by all accounts let the new conference let people come and speak you must have the good value you cannot become a human and you don't have any you are going to come well it also is very important to look for the level of trust that Nigerians have in whatever new conference I know that you know the I think the governor of Kaduna Settna was the head of the committee with regards restructuring I believe hope I'm not wrong but you know we of course will continue to have these conversations and see where we go Nigerians prayers I believe will continue to seek peace and we achieve that peaceful nation that we crave thank you very much Anthony Odiadi for your time this morning thank you for speaking with us thank you so much yes I really hold on to that Osawa gay no matter what it is peace should be the core nobody will want to repeat of what happened you know during the civil war 60 70 70 right I mean very very dark time in our country's history and we've seen other countries you know that climate for self-determination South Sudan like I mentioned just how much of a humanitarian crisis there is and you know how much aid is needed the hunger is just not a sight that we want to see replay here in this country so we should have peace at the back of our minds whether it's self-determination we can do that peacefully I mean I love how you brought up the issue of Brexit I mean you didn't see people of the UK of soldiers in the UK soldiers of any other European country you know come up to fight and clash and you know people fighting there was nothing like that it was all through deliberations this was discussions that took time they set deadlines and they were able to you know find a way to to break out peacefully so peace really should be the core focus whatever it is I agree but I would also quickly say that aside those who they you know the government has continued to you know shut down aside those who are agitating for self-determination there is also a growing number of people who are angry with Nigeria and it's not because they want self-determination they're frustrated with Nigeria because of what we currently are dealing with as a country the level of insecurity in the country the level of poverty in the country the level of unemployment in the country yes and there's many more and more people who want out they are seeking to go to some other country that they can leave and actually breathe that they can have 24 hours power supply they can have proper healthcare they can have a life so there is many of those people that are growing they're not looking for self-determination but it is also a ticking time bomb and we saw that in the NSAS protest the number of young jobless people who are frustrated and angry with the system if you look around Lagos today if you drive around like you phase one there is thousands of young men doing absolutely nothing but staying alive I saw the documentary on one boy over the weekend yes I did oh my god there is thousands of these people that are frustrated with the system they have one smile a day and that is the only one that they will have they all had a dream in their hearts they all were going somewhere they had a destination they wanted to be they wanted to just thrive but the system just finds a way to shut you down so when you say well let's ignore the ones who are looking for self-determination the IPOB's and the Odoa People's Congress and the likes and the ones in northern Nigeria like Agas mentioned you still have to come and face the ones who aren't clinging to any of these accessionist groups they are frustrated with Nigeria they have had family members killed they have had family members kidnapped they don't have jobs they are tired of this system their businesses are struggling and suffering because when they try and struggle to earn a living every single week taxis can come to your shop and take everything you've earned every sales you've made for the day so is the country working and it's not because of tribal religious sentiments is the country itself working aside those who are earning from corrupt ways or those who have legitimate means of making money legitimately and still live in the country is it working for them if any Nigerian has a terminal illness today where do they run to and I'm talking of a Nigerian who has a regular job as a lawyer a banker or a doctor or anything go for me really like you've said whether it's accessionist movements self-determination restructuring whatever it is the bone of contention is that Nigerian it's a work for everybody imagine if we look at the guy who came out of protestry the track earlier his own concern was that he was kidnapped security challenges I mean if we live in a country obviously even in the most developed country there's gun violence there's it's not like there's any utopia where things are 100% perfect but if you had a country where systems were working where you don't have to be afraid that sales will stop you that I'm taking a laptop to work download illegal apps on my phone and say I put it there and I use them if you know we had opportunities if I as a woman can with my certificate with my competence and skills get to a job get to a company and get a job without the guy asking me for sexual favors if we can have a country that works I don't think anybody will say they want a separate country or that they want you know their own agitation they want to leave everybody would love to stay because I have friends in the US they complain about monthly bills or taxes for heat for this for that it is drowning but it's a system that works and do we have a government in power currently that shows that it cares about your complaints I had a sibling who came back to Nigeria sometime last week one of my siblings they were on their way to Ogun state yesterday and I called them every hour to check that they're safe because for some reason taking a road trip in Nigeria right now is like a danger in yourself that's what it is all right short break when we come back we're talking about other people who are frustrated with the system these are complaints they are cab hailing services drivers and owners of those vehicles in Nigeria currently who are angry with the system and with their mother companies we'll talk to our guest after the short break here on the breakfast stay with us