 From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe, part of the CNCF and ongoing, could be in there from the beginning. Love this community, theCUBE's proud support and continue to cover it. We're virtual this year, again, because of the pandemic but it looks like we'll be right around the corner for a physical event, hopefully for the next one, Fingers Cross. Got a great guest here from Red Hat, Cmec Sadegifur, senior principal product manager. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming in. Thank you for having me. So this topic's about GitOps, pipelines, code, obviously infrastructure as code has been the ethos since I can remember going back to 2008 in the original Platerati vision. And we were always talking about that. Now it's mainstream, now it's DevSecOps. So it's now day two operations, shifting left with security, OpenShift is continuing to take ground. Congratulations on that. So my first question is, you guys announced the general availability of OpenShift pipelines and GitOps at KubeCon. What's this about and what's the benefits for the customer? Let's get into the news. Thanks for to begin with, for the congrats. And this is definitely a hot topic around DevSecOps and the different variations that you hear about some versions that during in Pintek and other verticals as well. The idea here really is that CICD has been around for a long time, continues to take ration and continues delivery as one of the core practices of the DevOps movement. DevOps movement is quite widespread now that you see reports of above 90% of organizations are in the process of adoption in their journey. And this is one of the main practices but something that has become quite apparent is that many of these organizations that are investing more and more in cloud-native apps and adopting cloud-native ways of building applications, the tooling and technology that they use for CICD since CICD is nothing new is from 10 years old, five years old at pre-Kubernetes era, which is not quite cloud-native. So there was always a clash of how do I build cloud-native application using these technologies that are not really built for cloud-native space and OpenShift Pipelines, OpenShift GitOps is really an opening in this direction and bring more cloud-native ways of continuous integration and continuous delivery to customers on OpenShift. Got it, so I got to ask you. So a couple of questions on this topic I really want to dig into. Can you describe the cloud-native CICD process versus traditional CICD? Sure, so traditional when we think about CICD there is usually this monolithic solutions that are running on a virtual machine on a type of infrastructure that they used to deploy applications as well because you need reliability and you have to be making an assumption about an infrastructure that you're running on. And when you come to cloud-native infrastructure you have a much more dynamic infrastructure. We have a lot less assumptions you might be running on a public cloud or on-premise infrastructure or different types of public cloud. So these environments are often also containerized. So there is a high chance you're running on a container platform regardless of if it's a public cloud or on-premises. And with the whole containers you have different types of disciplines and principles to think about with the value of infrastructure. So in the cloud-native ways of CICD you're running most likely in a container platform you don't have dedicated infrastructure you are running mostly on demand you scale when there is a demand for running CICD for example rather than dedicated infrastructure to it. And also from the mode of operation from organization perspective they're more adapted to this decentralized ways of ownership as a part of the DevOps culture this comes really with that movement that more and more development teams are getting ownership of some portion of the delivery of their applications and it's cloud-native CICD solutions they focus on supporting these models that you go away from that central model of control to decentralize and have more ownership more capabilities within the development teams for delivering application. Okay so I then have to ask you the next question it's like a resource it's like hey Seri what is GitOps? What is GitOps? Cause that's the topic that's been getting a lot of traction everyone's talking about it I mean we know DevOps so what is the GitOps model? Can you define that and is that what comes after DevOps? Is it DevOps 2.0? What is the GitOps model? That's a very good question and GitOps is nothing really news rather a more descriptive way of DevOps principles So DevOps talks about the cultural changes and mindset and ways of working and when it comes to the concrete workflow it is quite open for interpretation so GitOps is one specific interpretation of how you do continuous integration and continuous delivery how you implement DevOps and the concepts have been around for a couple of years but just recently I've got a lot of traction within the cloud-native space. So how does GitOps fit into Kubernetes then cause that's going to be the next dot that we want to connect. What is that? So how does GitOps fit into Kubernetes? So GitOps is really the core principle of GitOps is that you think about everything in your infrastructure and application in a declarative manner so everything needs to be declared in a number of Git repositories and you drive your operation through Git workflows which if you think about it it's quite similar to how Kubernetes operates the reason Kubernetes became so popular is because of this declarative way of thinking about infrastructure you declare what you expect and Kubernetes actualizes that on some sort of infrastructure. So GitOps is exact same concept but applied not to the infrastructure itself but to the operations of that infrastructure and operations of those applications which becomes a really nice fit together it's the same minds that's really applied in different place. It's like Kubernetes is like the linchpin or the enabler for GitOps is whole another level of and I think GitOps is essentially DevOps 2.0 in my opinion because it takes this whole another level above the for the developer modern developer because it allows them to do more. So it's been around for a while. Let me talk about this, it's got a new name but GitOps is kind of a concept that's been around why is the increase adoption happening now in your opinion or do you have any data on or any facts or opinion on why it's such an increase in conversation and adoption? You had like a very accurate point there that Kubernetes has been a great enabler for DevOps and later the same applies to GitOps as well because of that great fit. It has been GitOps the concept has been there but implementation of that has been quite difficult before Kubernetes and also for non-containerized environments. Kubernetes is a very potent platform for this kind of operation because the mindset and the ways of working is really native to how Kubernetes thinks but there is also another like driver that has been influential in the rise of GitOps in the last year or two. And this is an observation we see at a lot of our customers that the number of clusters that organizations are deploying Kubernetes clusters is increasing as their maturity increases they get more comfortable with cloud native way of working and transfer the workflows to become cloud native. They are having they move more and more of the infrastructure to Kubernetes clusters. So a new challenge rises with this and now that I have a larger number of clusters how do I ensure consistency across all these clusters? So before I had to deploy an application to production environment perhaps which meant two clusters across two geographical zones now have deployed to 20 clusters and these 20 clusters also change over time. So this week is a different 20 clusters than three weeks from now. So this dynamic ways of working and the customers maturing in dealing with Kubernetes operating communities has increased really the pace of adoption of GitOps because it addresses a lot of the challenges that customers are dealing with in this space. Yeah, you bring up a really good challenge there and I think that's worth calling out this idea of expansion and I won't say sprawl because it's not a sprawl of cluster it's more of provisioning and standing up clusters. And you said they're changing because the environment has needs and the workloads might have requirements. This makes total sense and a DevOps kind of GitOps way. So I get that and I see that definitely happening. So this brings up the question. If I'm a customer, what I'm worried about is I don't want to have that Hadoop factor where I build the cluster and it takes too long to manage it or I can't measure it or understand the data or have any observability. So I want to have an ease of provisioning and standing up and I want to have consistency that my apps who are using it don't have to be mangled with or coded with. So this combination of ease of deploying, ease of integrating, ease of consuming the clusters becomes a service model. Can you share your thoughts on how that gets solved? Yeah, absolutely. So that's a great point because as this is happening there is also heterogeneity in this type of Kubernetes infrastructure even though they're all Kubernetes but this problem also has multiple facets as customers running on multiple public clouds and combination of that with their on-premise Kubernetes clusters and that may as well be an open shift across all this infrastructure. But the problem that Githous helps as customers applies that they can have the exact same operational model across all these apps and infrastructure regardless of what kind of application it is and regardless of where OpenShift is installed or if they're using that combined with in a public cloud managed Kubernetes instances the exact same process because you're relying on the Gith's workflows. And even beyond that, this standard workflow has the benefit of something that many organizations are really familiar with. So if you think about what Githous operations mean it is essentially what developers have been always using for developing applications. So this standardizes the operations of both application infrastructure as microsolvers. I got to ask you as the product manager on the whole pipeline in Kubernetes deployments in your opinion, share your perspective on real quick on Kubernetes where we're at because just the accelerated adoption has been phenomenal. We've seen it mature this year at KubeCon and certainly when KubeCon North America happens you're going to see more and more end user participation you're going to see much more end user use cases. You mentioned clusters are growing. What's the state of Kubernetes from your perspective from a developer mindset? So Kubernetes, I think it has moved from a place that it was seen as only a type of infrastructure for cloud native applications because of the capability that it provides to a type of infrastructure for any type of application any type of workload. I think what we have seen over the last two years is a shift to expansion of the use cases. And if you are, you talked about head open if you are a data scientist or if you are an AIML type of developer or any type of workload really see use cases that are coming to the Kubernetes platform as the target type of infrastructure. So that's really where we see Kubernetes as right now is the really the preferred infrastructure for any type of workload. And I believe this trend going to keep continuing to address any of the challenge that exists that prevents maybe part of the particular type of workflow to address that within the platform and opens that to developers which means for the developers now once you learn the platform you are really proficient in you have the skills for any type of application or any type of infrastructure because they're all standardized regardless of what type of application or workloads or technology you are specialized in they're all going to the exact same platform so it's very standardized type of skills actress organizations different type of teams that they have. Awesome, great. Thanks for sharing that insight and definition. You're like a walking dictionary today for our CUBE audience. Thank you for all this good stuff. Appreciate it. Final question for you is what does it mean for developers that are using Jenkins or other cloud-based CEI solutions like GitHub actions? What's the impact to them with all this from a working standpoint? Because obviously you got to make it workable. Right, so CI CD also like it's great to see that we develop an option there are many organizations that already have processes in place. They're already using a CI tool or a CD tool they might be using Jenkins a lot of organizations believe use Jenkins I mean though it comes with challenges and you might be using public cloud services or a cloud-based CI tool like GitHub actions, GitHub pipelines and so on. So we are very well aware of the existing investment that many organization teams have made and we make sure that OpenShift as a platform works really well alongside all this different type of CI and CD technology that exists. We want to make sure that for a developer starting on OpenShift they have a really solid cloud native foundation for CI CD, the type of batteries included but replaceable type of strategy. So they have a supported platform that is cloud native that gives them capability that matches the type of cloud native workloads that they have on the platform but also integrate well with existing tooling that exists around CI CD so that they can match and choose if they want to replace a piece of that with an existing investment that they have done and integrated with the rest of the platform. Awesome. Well, great to have you on. Having the principal product manager is awesome to talk about the two new announcements here. OpenShift pipelines and OpenShift GitOps. Final, final question. Bumper sticker this for the audience. What's the bottom line with OpenShift pipelines and GitOps? What's the bottom line benefit for customers? So OpenShift pipeline and OpenShift GitOps makes it really simple for customers to create cloud native pipelines and GitOps model for delivering application and also making cluster like changes across a large range of clusters that they have make it really simple to grow from that point to many, many clusters and still manage the complexity of complex infrastructure that it will be growing into. All right. So the gift for senior principal product manager Red Hat here for the KubeCon cloud native con Europe cube conversation. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thanks John. Thanks for having me. Okay. Kube coverage continues. I'm John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for watching.