 It's still plus politics now. Senator Matthew Rogherty, a two-term lawmaker representing a door south in the Senate on the platform of the People's Democratic Party, has said that the incoming president, Bola Mettinibu, has a lot of work to do in terms of integration. There is no doubt that Nigerians have never been this divided as we are today. But those who have always thrown up the ethnic and religious cards are those who only want to pray on the people while seeking power. Now he added also that there was no perfect election anywhere in the world due to human actions which played out in the recently concluded elections. Joining us to discuss this is Subway Eli, he's a spokesperson and APC campaign counsel and Sheru Musa Gabam is the national chairman of the Social Democratic Party, SDP. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us and good evening. Good evening. Yes, I'm gonna start with you, Mr. Gabam, of course you know. You've played in the political field for years. I know this very well. And like many other people have posited, even of course the very intelligent minds across the country have, you know, fears of the fact that this country has been so divided in the space of two years compared to any other time in the life of Nigeria. And most of the finger-pointing is towards politicians of your likes, whether it be APC, PDP, SDP. And most people say that this is done just for selfish reasons. And right after the elections it's very easy for politicians to say, oh let's all come together, let's all band together for one Nigeria, but then this is not the rhetoric that we get during the campaign season. And I want to put it to you. Why is it that this happens year in year out? I'm so consistent on it and I have no apologies saying it. Politicians are responsible for what is happening today in Nigeria because there's no part of what is in their mind. What is in their mind is their selfish interest. I've been around the game for a very long time and I'm on the funding for the restoration of democracy in 1999. And so long as we continue with this attitude, it won't be me, I'm not anybody, a person. We will continue to be in this side. We must develop a concept of accepting that we have to go through a process. Somebody must win at the time. And whoever that wins the election, the country must come together and support him for the success of the country. You know, the election was was quite manageable. I wouldn't say it was a very successful thing. Everybody have his own version of what happened. But if you put all these things cumulatively, you will understand clearly that the law that established INEC have equally given INEC the power to conduct election and declare a result. INEC have conducted election. INEC have declared the winner of the election. And SDP, we have taken the position, we have said, look, you cannot go outside the law. We don't want recklessness or lawlessness. You know, after election have been conducted, we stand by what INEC have declared. Those who disagree should go to court. We must trust our justice system. And that is the only way you can fix the justice system. There must face issues that they have to go through it patrotically and come out with judgment that will stand the test of time, will strengthen our fundamental pillars as a nation. There's no perfect anywhere in the world. And I've always reminded people that up till tomorrow, there's crises of election in America between Trump and Biden. But the nation is still moving on. So as as as politicians and patriotic Nigerians, we must agree that the system is not perfect. We'll continue to fix it patrotically. We'll continue to defect ideologically based on fixated interests. But the national intel must not be any other thing. I was among the first party that called for the president to reconcile the country. That is the only way the president can move forward. Going by the situation on ground, the Balkanization of the nation, by weak leadership of the current administration, President Mohan Buhari, I believe Borla Ahmed Tulumbu, going by his track record, he should be able to bring the country together. Shagari government brought Nigerians together. There was utilization of power. So our expectation is that the president elect will utilize the power efficiently and effectively by creating a balanced environment for the entire citizens of the country to feel that, look, this is our country. We have a sense of belonging, citizens must be protected, a law must be restored and the terrorism must be created. So that at least we will know that bad elections that have taken place, good governance is key in it. People who start to say, okay, let us relax, let us support the system. That is the only way the president elect can have a leadway. Otherwise, it will be a crisis from the takeoff to the end. Just the way you are having crisis to form leadership of national assembly now, because this crisis started from the PDP, the lost grip of the system to determine the zoning formula of the national assembly. And in theory, according right now, the fragmentation and then the fixation of interest, where will the president come from, the speaker, it's because the party is weak. In those days where you have parties that have authority to determine, you won't have people arguing and overstretching that it must be or not in the order of course. So my appeal is that we must stabilize the system. You know, election is gone. Those who disagree are in the court. We must allow courts to adjudicate through all the submissions to them and then see how we can move on. This is the position that I maintain, but politicians are responsible for the current crisis we are going on. We forgot patriotism, we key in individualism and interest above any other national interest. Let me come to you. Of course, when we talk about travails and problems, your party in river state has seen the better of it and this is not in the nicest way. The APC in river state has had its best days behind it, but we're not going to talk about that. I'm most curious about the issue of politics of ranker. Why do you think that this particular way we play politics has continued to prevail? It's easy for us to point fingers at politicians and I'm not in any way trying to say that or absolve them of that responsibility, but do you think that we the people, we the followers and we those who are either supporting one party or the other have a role to play in how this politics of ranker has continued to persevere over the years? Thanks for the question, Mayor. My point of intervention would be to consider a fundamental question. As Nigerians, have we ever thought about the idea of relation states? It appears to me as though we're having this thing wrong over and again because over time, people see politics as a means on ends. Right? What is it seen as the bigger industry? So when it's time for elections, people show everything, everything, religion, your religion or conformity, ethnic group and fundamental, you know, but it speaks about ideology and also people can move from party A to party B, party B to party A and so forth and so forth. Now for us, what's the cut-down problem of us Nigerians? So first we must agree on the idea of concept of relation states that have a country called Nigeria to which we are allegiance as people, whether you're not yourselves, you're Christian, you're Muslim or you taste, there must be a nation first where everybody was allegiance. Number two, we must be emphasized the idea of making politics a means on ends. All of this must be for some reason. And I am a lot more catered, look, let's let's incentivize what comes to polygraphies holders. For instance, if you're going to run for the senate in Nigeria, I have said time and again that not all senators should, that's not be equal pay. I say, how do you make it less attractive? Every senator that wants to run for office must show what is ending is right now in terms of employment or business. Okay, they will have a better look like you're coming to serve that they come to say it doesn't make you automatically super rich. Also do that, forget it, right? So if you incentivize the process of rewards, people are making too much money by simply winning an election. So they're throwing everything to win. Now that's wrong. That's why when we win elections or some people have lost elections, the reconcile kindness and political parties becomes a very difficult thing because not winning at all costs mentality is the driving factor. And then we have a respect to macro-sustainable judiciary. We have also had a social well-earned challenge with how the justice system delivers when people are grievancing and tribunals, right, after elections. So until we're able to have a step where if you win elections, that's not what the law says. That's not what the law provides for. And the justice system puts you in check immediately. Then, then and only then, can we also have a system where people will not invest too much money and time fighting over the election boundaries. The last election that I had for me was a bit more 30 and messy than what we had in 2015 when President Obama and the Boreas kind of with my party were challenging me for President Hullo Junot and me. Even up to 2019, it wasn't as messy. So it does appear as though at each new election cycle, where a new incumbent, so an incumbent is going out, a new person is coming in, the fight appears to be more 30, the most linking, the character assassination, all of that does not accord with a national ethos. As Nigerians who say do tribe and tongue be deeper in brotherhood stand, that was an old land time. And I think I subscribe to that once we agree on the national ethos, Nigeria first, then too we agree that office must not give you an advantage over what you are not buying, so that you don't come super rich that goes holy for the clothies. Then the whole of the madness for power will come down. Then we go back to the party system. In the party system, I think that's the brilliant ground for all of this acrimony and big red. At the party system, party leaders are not, party leaders are not, are not helping us at all. Parties are not helping us at all in terms of the management relation, in terms of party parameters. Party leaders often are not, I say they respect my, but on the final issue of Moussa, their band of their city. Party chairman and secretary of national level, up to the state level, down to the LG award levels, appear to have five candidates. So, you find this is where in spite of what the party guideline says, our party constitution says, ahead of the primaries, people are down with five candidates and work for them. But when it comes to the delegates election team, so people are prepared to make sure they do everything they should, their candidates emerge. Now that's the beginning of the bickering. So when those candidates are presented with elections, internally, they face a sabotage by those who feel so changed, right? You're not able to solve that before you go to the elections, and that becomes a fight to finish, who cannot make progress, continue on this lane, and to address these issues, you have a problem. Let me come back to you, Mr. Gabbam. You talked about, you know, we needing to stabilize the system. And Samaria also talked about briefly, the judiciary and the trust deficit that we as Nigerians have in terms of the judiciary. And he talked about lopsided, you know, judgments in terms of, you know, the tribunals. What do you even begin to start from in terms of, you know, this unity, restoring unity, decency? He also talked about pay for members of the National Assembly. And again, I always ask when people say, oh, we need to change, you know, how the National Assembly is and, and, you know, the politicization of running for these offices or making it more service, service, you know, oriented. But it still boils down to the members of the National Assembly, doesn't it? And, and who wants to cut off their nose despite their faith? Well, exactly what it is, you know, the quality of the people that have been elected in the National Assembly determine how the Assembly will function. When you send low quality people that don't understand what it takes to make a law or fix the country, it is extremely difficult for, for, for the system to be overhauled within the timeframe that is expected for the overall benefit of the country. Largely, we'll be sending people who don't understand what it is, even to be in the National Assembly. They have never moved any motion or add value to any valid conversation that was printing our value at the nation. So it starts from there, meditation, and what it takes to correct some of the loopholes that have been identified in the system that was cleansing the unity of the country and taking away some of the areas that have created this discrimination in the country like the indigenship and what have you that is a factor that will determine where you'll be employed or quarter system or all these sort of things. But the way you can expect a united country, unless you expunge some of these primitive provisions in the constitution and allow the latitude for the Nigerian to have a sense of belonging to believe that I'm proud to be a Nigerian. I would not be discriminated on the basis of my tribe or my religion or my region. And that is when we begin to say that yes, we are now consolidating as a nation. Secondly, you see the manner in which the law that was provided for instance the 2012 electoral act, it has a lot of loopholes. We were all practically for the first time born the INEC and the political parties and then most of the party invited all the parties are victims because even the APC have gone to tribunals. The PDP have gone to tribunals. I've also gone to tribunals because I've won some elections. There are mutilation of results sheets as well as the law is clear. If you have not gone through the process of accreditation and you've not been accredited, you cannot cast your vote. And if you temper with the results sheet, election of that particular police unit is cancelled. But you see a lot of results sheet being mutilated and now you begin to ask officers that are responsible that have been trained and have the authority to say look, what happened with this results sheet, temper with the election or what happened with the ballot box, temper with the election or snatching the ballot papers or the results sheet also temper with the election. So you have a system that is we are all experimenting and there's a lack of enforcement, there's lack of deterrence and INEC admitted that there are sabotage in the process that have constituted a committee to investigate those behind the sabotage. And we are waiting to see some of them have been arrested in the court or have been arrested by the police, not have taken place yet. Now, fundamentally, fundamentally, if you break in someone that have not been around the corridors of power and have the experience of management of diverse interest groups in Nigeria, there's no way you can drive the country. You know, you have to understand that it's a collection of so many divergent views, but it's also required a man that has a vision who understands that he doesn't have any other country except Nigeria. I'm so sorry to talk over you but it's very important that I come in. So may I made a case that party leaders play the role, a huge role and most of the time you play favourites. So when you talk about you know people having the vision, people who are right for the job does the party leadership allow for that because you know you all throw up such sudden times, people who are not necessarily fit for the job. So again, fingers are pointing back to you sir and the likes of you. I can confirm to you it is true. I was in PDP. I was the founder of PDP from G7. I know in position have taken place quality people have been thrown aside. Video critical were brought in and put in the position that they cannot function. They don't have the intellectual capacity to add value. They were there because godfathers nominated them into the system. Now, some of the reason why some of us left PDP is because of this impurity. In the party that I am today, I can tell you we have less cases anywhere because we did not go for revenue generation. We went for quality and that is why we succeeded despite the hostile environment. We succeeded in winning some elections. Some of them that we won declared were in the tribunal being challenged left, right and center. We brought the change. We don't do it and that virus have already affected APC. You know, not only you see quality people, but you see godfathers impending people that cannot add value to the system and that is why the country is going down. In terms of quality of judgment is going down and the hope of everybody is the judiciary. If the judiciary do not overhaul and do not understand that this is the only country that they can really adjudicate on issues that will advance rather than going on the sentiments and creating regional issues, agitations, suppressions, you know, subjugations, you know, we will pay for it heavily. But I do hope and I pray our judges will understand where the country is coming from and where we are going. I will do a lot of adjustments. All right. Quickly, you have a few minutes to wrap up on this and I'm going to ask you a very direct question. Do you think that the president-elect is equipped to deal with the issues because, I mean, there are so many issues, there is a potpourri of issues right now waiting for him. How well equipped is he to handle what's ahead of him? So where are you there? So where, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Go ahead, if you heard my question. Yeah, I would say, I would say for the president-elect to put up himself for elections, that is just an expression of an idea. I have an idea of the touch on hands and he comes prepared in the sense that he's governed a million Nigeria called Ligos for eight years and away from Gopin House, Alosa in May 2007, he has been directly involved in the making of the Ligos Gopin House and I've come behind him. Again, in the Oari presidency, who wouldn't say president-elect Bola Kretinibu, who's not a stranger, he's been close to power. I'm so I'm sure I get at his level for the class 1999 Gopin House. It should have the reference experience to manage Nigeria without the complexities. So I shouldn't, I should have seen Bakke and imagine that he cannot hit the ground running from day one. He honestly should. I would be surprised on the other hand if he goes to office and turns out to be what it's unable or someone incapable to hit the ground running. Well, I want to say thank you gentlemen and for unfortunately that's our time. So where Eli is a spokesman for the Reaver's APC campaign council and Shehu Musa Gabam is a national chairman of the Social Democratic Party, SDP. Thank you so much gentlemen for being part of the conversation. Very good, thank you. Thank you very much and that's the show tonight. I want to thank you all for being part of the show tonight. Don't forget, if you missed any of our episodes, please go to our YouTube page plus TV Africa and play catch up. I am Mary Anacond. We'll be back tomorrow talking for development. Have a good night.