 of Bombay High Court. Those who have stayed connected with us know that ma'am Roshan Dalvi had been on our platform when we had a tie-up on vulnerable series with the Simbosses Law School, Pune. That session was not only well received on the Zoom platform but on the Facebook as well as the YouTube. The insights given by ma'am have always been enlightening and gives you a different thought process and when the issue of thought process came to us regarding the case management we thought that there could not be any person better than ma'am especially when we heard the session that was so well received in the Kerala bar on the case management and the perspective. The flips given to the Sim by ma'am would definitely be enlightening for everyone. Just as Dalvi if you Google on the YouTube or otherwise you would find that she's an eloquent speaker and as I said on the previous session that in fact when I had seen one of the YouTube videos from struggle to success from the Bombay Bar Association that fascinated a lot that once we have an eloquent speaker and who knows the content why not the team beyond law CLC. Request ma'am to give the insights to Dalvi. Her judgments as a judge of the Bombay High Court were well received. She had a great passion towards the gender law being one of the principal judges of the family courts but once we have a good speaker amongst us and giving the insights to the case management without taking much time I would request ma'am Roshan Dalvi to take over and give us the way forward into the case management as to how the judiciary the limbs that is the judges and the lawyers and the other professionals even the paralegal staff as to how the case management can be done in the right way to have the better flow of staff. In a better case management it needless be added it requires planning organization dealing in the right thought process coordination and organization within itself. But despite the fact that large number of us know about this but as they say theoretical knowledge and practical aspects coming from a person who has the insights over this would always be a path which is less credit but yes once if we try to treat that the success is definitely going to be over to you Justice Roshan Dalvi. Good afternoon friends. It's a fine topic on a fine day and it's good that you all are listening to something which is really in the domain of business managers but we as lawyers and judges we are also in a business. We as judges don't make profit but we require to hold on to our time and you as lawyers make profit and must save time also. So I believe that case management is exceedingly important and a subject to which no thought has yet been given. Now we as a country in India we are almost on top in the world so far as substantive laws are concerned. When I worked in England, Canada or America I found that our Supreme Court is looked up to just as of course we look up to their judgments even though they are not binding and we take them as a good point of view. Now given that I came to realize that when it comes to procedural law nobody looks up to us. Nobody likes us. In our international arbitrations also we are almost on rung bottom and that is not because we don't know the laws. It is because we don't apply them as we should apply with experience and with less time and lesser resources. That is case management. Now this is not in our law textbooks. So I'll be telling you something right outside the law textbooks but what will apply to you in day-to-day life. Today we are in the afternoon sitting after lunch and if you all are in a happy state of affairs you must have had a very fine lunch and you must have given I hope a little thought to your mother or your wife who has made it happen and that is because of kitchen management. So management is everywhere. It is only that we have to find out those principles and apply them to our work. Now so much so that I would like to show you how even animals, birds and insects manage their life well. So why should we human beings and especially we lawyers and judges not manage our business well. So if you give me a minute I'll start my presentation and because if you can share the screen. Yes that's what I was trying to ask. Yes. I'm just giving that. Yes thank you. Because I knew that once you are there there has to be a some screen sharing in PPT. Yes ma'am. Okay so friends this is case and court management that we are going to talk about and how does it apply to animals, birds and insects. Now you see these are the birds they fly in a V formation and if you see at sunset time each bird takes a turn. Each bird becomes a leader and leads its flock to its home. Ruby. Now these are penguins in the vast ocean, white ocean of Antarctica. How do they survive? They always come closer to one another for warmth and take care of their chicks. This is a great example of teamwork in the forest. The deer and the langur work together. The langur goes on the tree and gives out a yell when the leopard comes and the deer starts running. If the langur is not there the deer would not be there. This is the bee and we know how structured a lifestyle it has. Scientists have said that if all the other plants and resources go away will require a hundred years to bring them back. But if the bees go away in 20 years humankind will be wiped off. These are vultures and eagles. They fly in pairs. They've got very good eyesight. They'll swoop down upon their prey and when there is storm they fly above the clouds. These are the ants that we see in our houses. They collect food in summertime for their winter and the cheetahs teach the young ones how to hunt and these hyenas don't hunt. They eat the leftover of the cheetahs. Whales travel over huge distances and communicate with one another under the ocean. The monkeys only play but they are our closest relatives. And all this involves teamwork and I'll presently tell you how important teamwork is in our profession. This is Krishna Ayur had said that it is the bench, bar, vision, mission and passion that can take the quarter up. So now on management. This is not on case management. This is on plane management. Management of anything that you have to do. It involves only these five steps. Planning, organizing, directing, coordinating and controlling. Okay. So even if you have to write a small letter you have to manage it with these five steps. And even if you have to manage the country of the size of India only these five steps are required. That is what the management guru Peter Drucker has said. Now first you have to plan what you want to do. Let's take an example of writing a letter. You plan what you want to write if you want to write a good letter or a good essay. You organize your thoughts. You may take a paper and pencil and write down so that you know which thought will come after which just the way we draft our issues in a civil suit or our points of determination in a criminal trial. Then you direct, you direct your steno to take down your dictation. Then you coordinate with her or him and find out how the letter is written. Look it up and sign it. And then you control how by finding out whether it has reached the address. So a simple small task involves this five steps of management which are taught in all management schools. Now what is case management? Lord Justice Harry Wolf in England has written a thesis on case management. That has is now the Bible of the English civil justice system. And it's very simple. What does it seek to do? The practitioners and judges becoming better at what they do. So they achieve the same end with less resources and in less time. And just visualize how your clients will be in awe of you if you do the same thing, the good thing for your client with less resources and in less time. And you're not going to get less fees for that. You will be in a position to command that fee. There's so much of work that the process will keep going and you will get more and more clients. So case management, what is it for? It is for these three simple things only, but it involves everything that we do. Improving efficiency, reducing delays and cutting costs. And once that done, we will be on velvet. So now the ambit of case management. For case management you will require infrastructure and sensitivity. Now we have procedural and substantive laws as I told you and both of them would require infrastructure and sensitivity. We will first talk about our own sensitivity because that we can work with zero budget. We only have to better ourselves. We don't need government aid. We don't need a lot of finance. But towards the end I will tell you about how much success we have made in infrastructure, how there is better infrastructure in western countries and how there is no infrastructure in various other countries. We are somewhere in the middle. So that is what case management's ambit would be. Now for understanding this ambit, I would choose to do it by way of storytelling so that it remains with you, I hope forever. So there are some business principles and those business principles can be applied to our work in the justice system. The first and the most simple business principle is non-value added items or activities. That is what a businessman does not want to keep his capital in anything which does not bring him profits. He says, why would I do this? Now we have got these water bottles and we have got the cap on the water bottles which has seal. But if you remember years ago, Mislery had a kind of a plastic wrapping also. Mislery thought that this was a non-value added item. It required finances but it did not give profits. So he did away with that. Now these non-value added items are taught in business schools by way of this story which I will tell you. The professor in a business school goes to a class with a big tumbler, some huge rocks, some small stones, pebbles, gravel, sand and water, a jug of water. And the students are just looking at what he is doing, wondering. The professor goes and first puts the large rocks, the big rocks in the picture first. He then puts the smaller stones around them. Then he looks up and he asks the students, is the picture full? And the students look and say, oh yes sir, it is full. So he smiles and then he puts in some small pebbles and gravel. Then he looks at them again and sprinkles some sand and then he pours the jug of water. And everything goes into the picture after the students thought that the picture was full. So he asks the students, what is the moral of this story? And the students, their business people are very smart in the MBA class. They say, oh sir, no matter what, there is time and space to do still more. So the professor smiles and says, well that's a very good line but that's not the moral of this story. The moral of this story is that if you don't put in your big rocks in the picture first, you will never be able to put them in ever afterwards. So the students wonder and they say yes, if the professor had put in the gravel and the sand first and then the pebbles and then the big stones and the big rocks, the rocks would not have fitted in. So the professor tells his students, every morning when you get up, ask yourself, what are my big rocks for today? And put them in your day first. You will be able to put in your small rocks at some time or the other during the day. Now let us visualize our work in the courts. We do all sorts of non-value-added items and non-value-added activities. Chamber summonses, interim applications for nothing, for bringing errors on record. When I was in England, I learned that there is no such application for bringing errors on record. Errors have to be brought on record because in almost every single civil suit, there is a cause of action that will survive. Do we have cases of dancers who die and the cause of action doesn't survive to the heirs of the dancer? No, we don't have those kinds of cases anymore. We have cases of property rights and commercial matters, family disputes and all of those things, which will survive. So why have all these applications at all? You could just make an entry in England as soon as somebody dies and give notice to the other side that it is made. That's it. Now I can add 10 other things, but I don't want to do that now. I would leave it to you. Afterwards, you visualize how many non-value-added things you are doing and I hope and pray you won't do them more. Now a smaller example of Swissair. Swissair and I, airline, now it doesn't operate. It was a very fine airline and it realized upon doing some research that the fruit salad, which it gives, it keeps a cherry on top and they found that the cherry is not generally eaten up by the passengers. So they stopped putting the cherry on top and they saved millions of dollars. It was a non-value-added activity and they didn't want to do it. Henry Ford, who was a great businessman in America, he one day went to investigate his to inspect his plant and he saw the cars rolling out on a conveyor belt and he was asked and he said, what do you do on this conveyor belt? So his CEO said that we check every single part and then put the car on the conveyor belt. So this is what that checking each department does when each part is manufactured and put together. He said, yes, but so that they didn't need nothing wrong afterwards, we do this again and Henry Ford gave his orders, stop this entirely. The cars must come out without any defect and without the second inspection. It's a non-value-added activity. So they must have saved a lot of money. Now the next principle is the principle of core competence. Today we have specialists in everything amongst lawyers. I ask a three-year-old infant lawyer what he does and he tells me with great gusto that he does only IPR, for example. Now that's not good because a young lawyer must do various things and then decide which he is really adept at. That will give him the edge afterwards. So if he does only IPR, he may have core competence in IPR, but he'll know nothing of anything else. This core competence has to be developed but at the right stage. After let us say 10 years of practice or so, when you know about the whole system and how it's functioning and then you devote yourself to a particular part of the vast justice system, it would be core competence. Law Justice Harry Wolf said in his report on case management that there must be specialist judges. In England, a judge does not do civil and criminal work. He does either civil or criminal work except in the first 15 days when he's supposed to do some criminal work to get an idea. Now this gives the judge an edge. He knows what he's good at and he's given the work that he's good at. Now even in India, even in the supreme court, there is not that kind of specialization and I think that specialization works. Then comes the case managers. We have them now in all the courts. I don't know if they are working efficiently anywhere. That is because they are not given their due. They are business managers, qualified business managers and they must manage our work so that our judges can do only the work which is their core competence, judging. They are trained in judging and not in managing. Then comes the principle of time management which is so vast that books are written on time management and I would take up a day to tell you about time management, not that I know much of. But the real thing is that we set a time frame for everything. Now even for this, there must be a time frame and after about an hour, I would say, well, that's enough for today. Then the procedural simplification, extremely useful in our system and extremely ill-used. We just don't have procedural simplification and therefore we have so many non-value added activities and we have so much of extra time taken up in nothing which does not give the client the last satisfaction that the client wants. So we have procedure codes. Some parts of them are salutary examples of grace management. For example, in civil law order 7 rule 11, weeding out by rejection of plaint. Order 15 rule 3 which has now gone off from the commercial justice system, but it was a very sound principle that only the main issue if it can dispose of the suit to take it up. Not many judges did that. In order 12 rule 6, for example, judgment on admission, so often you find that even though facts are admitted, everything is recorded again and again and if a judgment can be given even for part of the amount, it would be very good. So there are various such principles in civil as well as criminal justice system. Now the rules, for everything we want the rules, content procedures, we want the rules, PILs, we want the rules. We can't function without rules and the more the rules, the more the rift. Now Thomas Alva Edison had his laboratory. He wanted some scientists to work. One young man came up and talked with him and he was hired. So this young man asked Edison, sir, what are the rules in your organization? So Edison laughs and tells him, son, here we don't have any rules, here we want to achieve something. You understand? That's what rules do and undo. So we have this moon story, for example, for procedural simplification. This is a story told in all business schools. It's a very popular story. When the Americans went to the moon and came back, there was a lot of feedback that they gave the astronauts, etc. One of the things they said was, a ball pen doesn't work in space. So America set aside 250 million dollars and said, now let us work on which pen will work in space. They did not think that Russians had gone to the moon or rather in space before the Americans went to the moon. Yuri Gagarin had gone in 1957 and the Americans went in 1969. Leica the dog had gone before Yuri Gagarin because he didn't use a pen but Yuri Gagarin had used a pencil. As simple as that. And much closer to our home in our businesses, we have a very fine story of a soap company. It manufactured soap, put it in those soap cartons and it received some complaints that some of the cartons were empty. So there was a case of fraud made out that we have consumer forum, they have fraud principles in America, in Japan this was. And so the company said that, oh, we have to now work on how to find out and put up a whole conveyor belt and said that we will have some kind of machines and systems that will find out if there is any carton which is empty. A smaller company said, what we do is we put our soaps on the conveyor belt and we switch on our table fan, the empty cartons just fly away. Now we have to visualize this in our justice system with our procedural simplification of let us say notices that we send the writ of summons right in the beginning. When I was the principal judge of the family court, I realized that this takes so long, we had eight bailiffs in the court and we had 10,000 petitions. Now so many petitions have to be served and there were complaints of corruption. So what I told them was that every single lawyer will serve his client. He has to collect the writ of summons and serve it. He may serve it in any which way that the CPC allows and right from 1999, the CPC had allowed service by email and you know all sorts of services. Now the Supreme Court has said you can serve by WhatsApp also. So 80% of the things got under control and on the first date of hearing, the respondents came to my court and they were sent to the councillor for counselling. 20% remained. Out of that 10%, I could immediately take control of. I said you serve again by post and get me the registered post sleep. The respondents came. Some 10% were remaining and for that the bailiffs had to work and they happily worked and then the cause of corruption also came down. So a simple system did a lot of good I thought. Then there is this principle of paradigm shift. Paradigm is the most important function or ambit of the work. Now when the work doesn't go on when. Like our justice system is so bad that everywhere nobody is under control and you know the lawyers are shouting and the judges cannot finish and all the time we are working but nothing gets done. So what do we do? We have what is called the CBI, creative business ideas. It is not the Central Bureau of Investigation or the Central Bank of India. Now how do we understand that we have to change our paradigm itself, our system entirely and not have only cosmetic changes. I'll tell you this by way of stories. A couple of them out of all this fine which I have written on the screen. There was once a sitarist. He played the sitar he thought very well. So he went to his guru to get the test done. He played and the guru was dissatisfied. He played again and again and again. The guru was not satisfied and he thought and he told the guru I don't think I'm made to be a sitarist. I will give it one last try and then I give up. Just then the guru tells him take out this sitar from your right hand put it in your left hand and begin all over again and he became a famous sitarist. This was his paradigm shift. We must know where we lack and we must try to amend only that and the whole scenario gets amended. Then the story of a painter is very good. There was a father and son team working for a king in the palace. Now the king said that I want this vase painted just the color of my bedroom. So the father and son started painting and could not get the exact color because the wall was of concrete and the glass was of glass. The vase was of glass, infinite. They tried and tried and they were very scared that the king would be very angry. The son was very tired and went to sleep. When he got up the next morning he saw that the wall and the vase were exactly the same color. So he said oh father how did you get it and the father tells the son I painted the wall. The wall could take in that color but the vase could not. So there was a paradigm shift. Then there's a story of a blind man. He's blind so he takes a pot and he has written on a slate I am blind please help. No one gives him any coin. One man passes by talks to him and says brother what are you doing? He says I'm just sitting here I'm blind I can't do anything nobody's helping me. He takes the slate and he writes something and walks away. So many people give him coins. The pot is full in the evening. That man comes back again and says hello brother how was your day? So he says oh you came and you did something I know to my slate. What did you do? What had he done? He had erased what was written I am blind please help. It doesn't evoke anything in anyone and he wrote this is a lovely spring day but I cannot see it. That was the blind man's paradigm shift how to do his blind business. Then is the principle of decentralization. Just as I told you about the service you decentralize each one for himself and God for all. Decentralization has worked in very many corporate endeavors and therefore you know you see now we have many hierarchies there is an assistant and additional and there's a joint which are president etc etc so and so because they decentralize their work it works very well. Now we have got law clerks for example interns we can decentralize our work and give them something to do some research work etc. You have your juniors you must decentralize you must not just hold all the matters that you have give it out to your juniors they will do a good job you'll get more matters. Then is the principle of latest first now you see in every matter civil and criminal there is at least one side who wants the last judgment quickly he doesn't get it she doesn't get it. There may be another side or many other sides who don't want to give him that and want to delay I'm not talking about those wrongdoers I am talking about the lawyer and of course all the judges the lawyer who wants to get things done fast what is the principle the principle is when there is the latest do that right now even if other things have to wait you cannot do the last thing only last now what happens is how do we apply to the our system the supreme god said all 10 year old suits in every high court and all the subordinate courts must be first disposed of so we started disposing of all of those matters they were the old matters they were matters where sort of everything was sometimes finished nobody cared so many people didn't come we had to just dismiss then the supreme god said oh so many suits are gone up now five year matters so we are doing that I I presume at present at least I was doing it until I retired in 2015 but you see this doesn't help because there is always the five-year areas and when there is the five-year areas people who want to file false suits will continue to file them because they have got a five-year breather people who want to take false defenses will continue to take them because they've got that freedom but if the new suits are going to be disposed of in six months eight months or so then both of them will think harder they say there is no point paying court fees and filing this suit just to get an injunction for six months because after six months everything will be gone I know I have no case or the defendant might say well let me admit let me go in for mediation and let me settle instead of going and coming back again and again only for six months and then in any case I'm out I'll have to make the payment so frivolous suits and false defenses will come down now a story the British when they were in India they were very scared of snakes so one British officer instituted an award for killing snakes and many people killed snakes and collected the award and there were so many snakes killed and awards collected the British officer then got some intelligence report that people are rearing snakes to kill them to collect the award so he stopped the award and there and there were as many snakes as there were before each time when a new thing comes they do that and there is an old thing coming up that is how our justice system today is the next principle is of sharing best practices that of course I'm sure you all know and we do share best practices because we as lawyers and judges work in one building so many of us together unlike say the doctors or the architects who cannot share their best practices on a day to day basis but there are still times where we don't share best practices we have to have genuine intelligent interactions find out where are our problems and find out if we have done something well how well it has been with others that is sharing best practices for example today we will be sharing best practices I'm telling you some of mine you may tell me some of yours at the end of the session so this is emulating the habits of successful people then the next principle is systemic challenges every single sorry business or work has certain challenges we love to take up challenges as lawyers and judges of course but these challenges are in three circles one is the circle of control it is a very small circle each one can control a particular thing you can control your clients a judge can control his court the clients may control the lawyer you know whatever but you can't control everyone nobody can then there is a bigger circle of influence and I don't mind I say using the influence to get an order I don't mean that influence the influence is where we can reach out you can influence your client to think correctly to say no we will not do this but we will do only that a judge can influence two parties to tell them that this is this matter is not worth adjudicating it is worth mediating for example so we raise that we make this circle larger by our influence and the other is the circle of concern that is the largest circle everyone has concern about what others are doing about what they are doing what will happen to them what he can do and what others cannot do so our system the way it works gives out a lot of concerns we have to see how to make that circle smaller and that will happen only if our circle of influence gets larger and then the circle of control will automatically get larger the next principle is the single and double loop thinking now this is very interesting single is just thinking it is like information and knowledge or knowledge and wisdom single is only what what you have to do the client will come and ask you what do you do you say you'll give a notice and you'll file this suit single loop thinking but double loop thinking is when you ask yourself why or how how am I going to do it well how am I going to get for him the best possible order in the quickest possible time that is really the work of a lawyer so that requires double loop thinking and businessmen say that is goal versus task you know what is your task nobody says no but do you know how to reach your goal so that comes with double loop thinking so you have to change your task to reach your goal same the same stories which I told you painter and singer story would apply to this but the better story is the story of loop that is called the would I loop O O D A observe orient develop act so first to observe what is happening you may observe that in this court this judge is pro conviction not pro acquittal or is pro women or whatever wrong notions that lawyers generally have we are generally pro justice and pro law but nevertheless we accept whatever you might want to think so you observe then you orient and that is what you do very well you orient no in this court a lot of arguments will not help written arguments and bullet points will help because the judge means business so you orient then you decide or you develop your orient and you say oh i'm going to do it this way i'm going to make a short plane and then give out all these all documents separately and discuss the documents with the judge so you orient then you act that is the would I loop now a story in that how did this develop you see in the cold war times america and russia the soviet union at that time all both had fighter planes the russian fighter planes could go faster and could go higher but the american fighter planes brought down many russian fighter planes so americans were very happy and they said oh this is our training we are americans but one american john boy said no i don't think this is our training so he observed all this and then he discussed this and he said what is this we are very good at maneuvering so when the russian planes go higher we go lower and they come down and we catch them so it is our maneuvering which is helping that is our strength our weakness is the speed and the height and that's why he says you develop your core competence and this was what was called the would i loop thinking this was the first time it was documented it is in some of the books of management learning the next is the package team now this is extremely important and very well suited to lawyers especially of course even the judges but lawyers they want to do certain small small things because it gives them money the client doesn't know that this is worthless so the client thinks that it's a very good thing and gives them money but ultimately the respect comes down because the client says now it has been seven years and i've got nothing and i've paid him this much and what is he useful for instead of that if there's a package deal with the client look i will give you the last main relief in six months time but these are my fees all clients almost all clients will pay because when they are paying for not delivering the goods why will they not pay you for delivering the goods it's a package deal i am not going to do the small things i'm going to do things quickly in less resources in less time but i'm going to give you the relief and that is what clients want now the story this is a comparable story if the story which has happened in our backyard this is the story of tourism for example you know you remember the tour guides now we don't have them we do everything on internet and we get all our packages on internet but formerly they used to book our flight tickets only then they realized that flight tickets go with transportation in the other city or town or country so they started giving us also the cars the flight tickets and the transportation then they have started giving flight tickets transportation and the tools for sightseeing business tools etc this is a package deal now we are very happy with all this because if on the net we find a tour agent who is going to do all of these three things we are busy working for other things and making money so why should we not give him that and the two agents have prospered because it was a package deal a package team so we can always as lawyers and judges as lawyers especially make money by doing good and as judges we don't need money but we can save our time by doing good that is our main capital then the next principle is performance related promotions PRP and performance related payments that is what your lawyers do whenever of course each one what he can command he can get that much of fees similarly for the juniors of the lawyers there is performance related promotions because if a junior is not going to do well you are not going to give him now this is a sound labor law principle and that is what we have applied for lawyers and judges then there is a legal or judicial social service it is just like the CSR the corporate social responsibility we all are professionals we are in a noble profession we take oath at least we judges take oath to do our work and we should go out of our bounds so we must have some kind of legal responsibility the legal services committee does that what I would feel is if every lawyer can do one matter just one matter every year free of cost for some lawyer clients who would come and then there is a system of giving those clients because they must be deserving clients so many of the matters can be really taken care of where people don't have any good legal advice and that will leave us the richer because we get that experience and we do that work so we have legal aid and you can have those legal services and you as lawyers must get in touch with what this registry in the High Court who will put you up with the legal services authority and I hope you can do something for someone somewhere then the next is continuous education in all the professions in all businesses there is continuous education but we don't have continuous legal education until now thanks to corona where we've got now so many webinars we could have them let us say on every Saturday in every court or in whichever way we want for a continuous education continuous legal education or judicial education we have our judicial academies where we go and interact with various judges and all that and that is our continuous legal education but there is not much amongst lawyers and the last is the team as I told you right in the beginning team stands for together each achieves more so if lawyers and judges working together can come together and with cordiality work to enhance our system we will only make ourselves the richer that would be leadership training okay so these are the business principles now we apply them to each stage of our civil suits as a whole and then we'll take up the repetitions so these are the two main criteria one is the plate now the CPC says that the plaint must be precise concise and brief in Bombay from where I hill the planes are anything but precise concise and brief they're so long so verbose they consist of submissions and judgments and cases and all sorts of things that we don't want to read we have no time to read with the number of matters we have so our Chief Justice Justice M B Shah in 1996 said and from that time the system prevails in Bombay High Court that you must give a synopsis of your plate or petition now the synopsis were also so long and so worthy that then we have said that you must also give a chronology of events and dates and if we read the events and days before the matter reaches hearing it's enough for us we don't read the rubbish of course after we hear both the lawyers and we understand what is the ambit of this matter we understand what are our big rocks and we have to give our judgment then we would read things cover to cover and we find out so much is unnecessary the non-value added items the next is service I already told you how I did it in my court and that can be replicated I would say in all courts so often I've come across workshops of case management where there is somebody or the other who is talking about how to better the service system in the high courts and they are working on computers everything but they are not doing that simplification that with decentralization we everyone can serve only the original side of the Bombay High Court is an exception and that is also not because of case management but because it has just so happened all the suits almost all the suits except suits for damages which are very few require interim relief they also apply for ad interim relief they say this is the urgent relief that we want for which today also courts are working when other matters are not taken up in the supreme court and the high courts so what they do is at the time of the first application you have to serve the plaint and the proceedings the service is complete so when the ad interim application is heard we request the defendant to waive service most of the advocates wave service but every judge has to say that you have to wave service about 50,000 times if there have been a judge at least for as long as I have been 27 years what is the use of all this unnecessary activity just one rule that whenever a defendant appears is deemed to have been served deemed service it's still not in our civil procedure court the second the next is the response now when a plaint is served there is a response in Bombay they file what is called a short affidavit quite often which also contains everything that the defendant would have to say by and large some matters only would require something more to be said later but there is a response so that is by way of an affidavit you may call it an affidavit in reply if I call it a counter you may call it a defense or you may call it the written statement that the cpc calls it is just the same the written statement has to be accompanied by an affidavit with where the the litigant says that this is a statement made on oath and when there is an affidavit it is a statement made on oath so it is even better than a written statement which is a pleading made by a pleader now this response should be only one in Bombay we have two types of responses and which has caused all the chaos now the add interim relief when it comes up if you have a response you just say well hold your horses now rather if you have no response until you file and that will be a couple of weeks otherwise I'll pass the order of interim relief then comes the interim application now this is the backbone of a civil litigation at this time everything that both parties have to say is on record the parties have got their documents on record we have the reply or the counter then we have a rejoinder then we sometimes have a sir rejoinder and a sir sir rejoinder there's no need for a written statement now everything is on record the judge hears everything this comes up within let us say a few months or a couple of years because there is so much of backlog and there is no case management it should come up within weeks but it doesn't and then this interim application when it is heard the suit is actually right for three other stages one is the next stage the admission parties know what is admitted and what is not the judge also knows everything the judge can record the admissions factual admissions one two three four by recording those admissions you will narrow down the issues so you don't have unnecessary issues which would have to be deleted afterwards under order 14 rule 4 the few main issues would be there and you can always add to the issues amend the issues at any time the next would be the stage of evidence so you pass or you get passed as a lawyer and interim order record the admissions frame the issues help the judge in framing the issues and then your fit for your trial so there is an interim and there is a final stage this is what it was about 40 years ago at least because I joined the profession about 44 years ago in my father's office and I saw briefs which had only these two stages on the first day the judge says stop it hold your horses next week the notice of motion comes up for you and afterwards the suit was coming up for you and then all hell broke loose and today no suits reach hearing it requires 23 years for a suit to reach hearing almost nothing happens so many people say and they are not wrong now in the evidence also there is case management one case management we have adopted very well from the English justice system and that is the affidavit of evidence we may forget the English justice system because this is now well settled in all civil litigation we have affidavits of evidence so we don't have to have the no this is a leading question and all of those kind of things from the evidence act but then there is a cross examination and the order 18 rule 4 cross examination can be done also by court commissioners so the next step in case management is of court commissioners and if there are any young lawyers I would say this is a very fine line of profession for you this is a very good opportunity instead of just moving about with your senior lawyer doing nothing you can record the evidence in another matter I used to have young lawyers at least 250 matters I had given out for recording evidence so the cross examination was being recorded in question and answer form and I would have to read that up at home because it's also verbals now that has got its disadvantages also and that is that of course a court commissioner cannot rule on objections therefore he will record the objection then in any case take down the answer now what happens is there's a lot of mischief in every stage and that is mismanagement also so what happens is that a question is put and then the other lawyer objects and this gentleman or lady takes down the question and the objection in the meantime the witness prepares the answer or the witness forgets the question so either way it is wrong it is wrong either for a good witness or it is wrong for a bad witness and it doesn't really end in the truth coming out otherwise so what I would suggest is have this system appoint court commissioners have young lawyers to work on them because they will be doing real good work and they will become good cross examiners after some time but you record the question record the answer and the objection if any thereafter simple and it solves all problems because then all these objections will not even be taken because the answer comes and sometimes the objection is not worth it the second is that you can record a narrative the court commissioners record only questions and answers but everything doesn't need a question when were you born there's no need to write that question and then say I was born on 1st January 2020 no you can only write the answer there can be a narrative and if that is allowed and given and it should be then really when a witness does not answer properly you record the question and answer it becomes very clear that is the way judges record so that is how court commissioners can work with discipline now this would almost end up to the cross examination stage but we have certain things before we go to the argument stage for case management oral applications a number of applications can be made orally I used to allow so many applications orally in my court and just rule on them one two lines of directional orders nothing great whatsoever but there are some judges who want all written applications lest anybody makes any accusations so you have to put a court free stamp and you have to write down the application and then the other party will say this a lot of time and those are non-value added items of course nobody made any allegations against me like mercifully then original documents I used to tell all parties to bring only original documents don't file them in court I can't take care of them but bring them every single time now what happens is sometimes there is some kind of mischief and a xerox copy may be fabricated if there is an expati application we would never never work on them but even if there is an not an expati application it may miss somebody else until inspection is taken so when original documents are in court I can always ask them to be seen I can impound them as immediately as I want and I can offer them for inspection so the entire one stage of inspection in many many matters gets over all matters don't have too many documents and all documents don't require to be inspected but one document really would need to be inspected and that can be done in the court itself then preliminary decree very salutary provision and order 20 but not used now there are many suits many kinds of civil litigation which require a preliminary decree to be passed I hope you know partition suits administration suits suit for accounts all of these require a preliminary so you find out what is the share whether a partnership is there and what is the share of the partners or in an administration suit there are four brothers one father has died what is their share one for each that is a preliminary decree after the preliminary decree in many matters can be passed on the first day it is not done is another thing there are of course several other issues in a suit because it's not as simple as I say just now so therefore preliminary decree may not be passed even in an administration suit or a part of a decree can be passed but after that is passed of course there is really only a partition suit and an administration suit which is the next best step another law the step is commissioner for taking accounts in an account suit or things like that or you have to make your partition by meets and bounds so there is going to be a commissioner who will do all of those things that is the next step but it is not the next best step the next best step then is ADR part is known now that well this is the position we are all entitled to one fourth of the estate why not work it out and get it today so you can have a package deal the suit can be disposed of you can do it by way of mediation once this is settled and the parties are all parties have a win-win situation next is the stage of compilation if the matter has to go on on arguments forget the preliminary decree etc compilation if all the documents are compiled together Xerox copies you don't need original documents you can mark on them each lawyer has the compilation works very efficient then the arguments they are of two types oral and in writing either you have proper oral arguments with written arguments only by way of bullet points just to remind the judge about the points or you have proper written arguments and then quickly run through them in oral arguments either of these is a very sound working practice and then the judgment not meant for lawyers like you but judges must give the judgments within the time specified in the CPC which is at the most 60 days the sooner we give the better it is always because everything is fresh in our minds I will always like that the second is the judgment on arguments now this is very important in the commercial causes case in the commercial courts jurisdiction there is today what is called summary judgments so either the plaintiff or the defendant can say like no need for evidence in this matter all the documents are admitted all that are admitted facts all the documents have to be only interpreted so give us a judgment on arguments a very sound practice not many lawyers follow it but it is really good to follow because it improves our image the next is the costs real proper costs not any costs which will make a fool of themselves because each party who is victorious each party who is a good litigant must get his deal and the bad party must know that it does not pay to become bad the cost is very very essential in England as I will tell you presently in the Lord will report there is a capping of cost because the cost used to be so tremendous when I was in England there was a damages suit of 27 million pounds and the plaintiff won and got 2.5 million pounds as costs and as a high court judge I have in execution I've had in execution one matter which came from England where the call for the cost the party came to execute the decree only of cost and they had to sell one building to get those costs out of the many buildings that those parties had it was a huge matter so cost must be something which makes some sense you know it must give a whip then ADR now I can give you a whole lecture on ADR I'm doing that on the 9th with the Kerala lawyers I will not go into that now but it's a very sound practice to merge adjudication with alternative dispute resolution mediation and conciliation together or arbitration as an arbitrator now after retirement I do need ARB or ARB mean but I won't tell you much about that it's a combination of both of them then summary suits some of the courts have the jurisdiction and summary suits for agreements which are written agreements and negotiable instruments so then we have summary this person now the case management in UK how it has come into our system what we have adopted and what we have not we will quickly go through them aspects under the lord wolf report of course length of time he has made fast track and multi-track all the civil suits are fast track except those of medical negligence and damages which are in multi-track where you require many many witnesses so if the things on arguments and if the if there are smaller matters everything goes fast track it has to be disposed of within I think 13 weeks then fixed timetable so that before we so I gave you those things at interim relief interim relief then admissions issues and then you lay down the time limit for every bit of evidence and cross examination and run through controlling inspection how I told you get the original documents in court you will be controlling inspection the other party will be satisfied exchanging witness statements is what we have adopted that is our what we call affidavit of examination in chief or affidavit of evidence video recording of evidence is the infrastructure requirement it is not only the sensitivity requirement we must have video recording now that we have got we are getting into the groove with these webinars we should continue to use it in our system for all civil trials criminal matters etc and at various places these trials can be conducted I think I think this corona has given us a great opportunity to come out with flying colors and summary procedure summary procedure there is for all suits below 10,000 pounds we have it in as I told you written arguments written documents then the aspects under the law will report is defining the issues they have what is called the main issue and the other issues just like our order 15 rule 3 as it was now it has been deleted very sound principle timetable deadline is the case management directions ADR I told you judicial team that is training judges and lawyers together so we have our training institutes for judges you would have our lawyers but it is good to have convergence even with police officers prosecutors in the criminal trial we have convergence workshops and that those are working very well because we can find out each other's faults and do what is called blame sharing which is really not in your domain but it is a case management principle for judges blame sharing so that you find out exactly where the blame lies when you converge then interest and costs which I told you very important in the UK system because they have capping of costs now IT chaos are in all the courts permanent advice centers in larger parts this is where lawyers contribute and as I told you if you can do one matter if you can do even one thing of giving advice we've got an old lawyer are doing in our profession of 92 years today who is as agile as you and I are and he goes until coronavirus used to go to the court once a week to only sit down and give free advice and he says whoever wants to come can come and I will tell you what you can do it's such a it's such a lovely thing and we look up to him for all of this Mr. Yes Parikh evening and weekend courts is what we have in England we can have flexi times for example courts in two sessions working etc but those are only for the teachers to think about forget them then areas of case management areas the length of time key issues listing of cases pre-trial conference and tanking this if we set together then the case management of a civil trial can be expedited now the Lord will report what does it say its basic features are procedural simplification simplicity so you have now what is called a complaint not a complaint and it is a kind of a type written form where you have to fill up with the blanks that is all that is required in the UK and controlled by judges as soon as the defense is fine so the judge is in the driving seat it's not the acquisitorial system you say what you want and do what you like I will just listen it's not like the judge controls and what is peculiar to the England are these three things cost expert witnesses and unlimited legal aid of course that country can afford it it is an infrastructural requirement we don't have it therefore we must contribute to our country so what I would say is in England and in India how the Lord will report could be applied simple rules we can have amendment to the cpc and the high court defense we can have either written statement or a fit everything replied just one defense is in England exchanging witness statements I told you small claims is fast track we have summary suits specialist judges so civil and criminal judges original and appellate side judges you know that's how it should be fixed fees that is for the case and here we have ADR in both the systems and capping of costs and we have to grant compensation now in the repetition where you don't have a trial completely what should be the case management strategy you dispose of or you complete all the proceedings at one time when all the parties are represented and heard on merits so there may be small small applications everything don't put the applications on board put the entire repetition on board so everything gets disposed of this of course applies to appeals revisions all of those things or you dispose of and complete the main proceeding at the first available opportunity so that the other things are not required at all you see if you are going to finish the main things so many small rocks will not be required to be cared for now this is an old British judge in Mumbai High Court Sir Norman McLeod what he used to do when he used to get a plaint and a written statement he used to call the plaintiff and the defendant and he used to ask them everything that is here is correct yes you say it on okay now cross-examining so he's to start the trial that way so there was no need for evidence of evidence there was no need for extending witness statements I do that in my arbitrations but so many lawyers still want to file the reply I tell them whatever is in the claim I'm taking as evidence whatever is in the statement of defense I'm taking as evidence if there is anything more by all means say if not offer yourself for cross-examination if you want to or don't offer now the US precedent practice is another very good thing they have a restatement of the law every five or ten years now for example saying that a document must be read as a whole that law has been established since about 1850s we don't look up those judgments we know that every document has to be read as a whole we know that bank guarantee when it is there that this cannot interfere it must be honored allowed to be honored now these are statements of law there are so many other statements of law we require researchers to find out that in our judicial academies or in our bar councils and bar associations so that then those case laws are avoided and we will save a lot of time in US there is also a rocket rocket which is called fast track litigation so frivolous cases are just taken out of the system then the other infrastructural requirement the the computerization there is red crest electronic case management system in australia in singapore in singapore they've started a new system and replace the e-filing system that we are now troubling ourselves with so that is a very far-fetched requirement we'll have to wait for some time now these are the five stages of systemic public problem solving always identify problems for that you have to think make the plans make suggestions or broad themes you can do that with your judges or any which way in your in your associations and bar councils apply improvement techniques now i'll give you one small story on this also one new manager went in a new company and found all the boards of eliminate waste and he saw that nothing was eliminated there was waste of electricity waste of paper waste of resources waste of time so he took out took down all those posters and he put up new posters find waste so then the employees had to find out and they found out then they applied their minds and they said oh electricity is left out oh pans are switched on and not switched off water keeps running etc etc and then they eliminated that waste the next is you put your plans into practice the most important and now the last management principle that i will tell you how do you put your plans into practice you might have a lot many plans after you go home and think about today's lecture the Japanese did it in a very nice way the Japanese love fish they want fresh fish and they are really connoisseurs of fish so the demand was so much that the supply ran out and the Japanese fishermen had to go out and get more and more fish they used to go far into the sea and get more when they did that they had to return the next day and the fish were stale the Japanese didn't like it so they said now how do we how do we manage this how do we put it in practice they took freezers in their trawlers they cut the fish put it in the freezer and came back after four days five days the Japanese didn't like that frozen fish they wanted fresh fish and they wanted a lot of force so then the fishermen went out to the sea not with freezers but with a large fish tank and after they caught the fish they put it in the tank so that the fish does not die they came back but the Japanese didn't like the fish because they felt that this fish before dying were sort of you know not very active and therefore the flesh was not flesh now what do they do the Japanese fishermen planned out they said we'll take large tanks but we will also take a small shark and put it in the tank so when the fish are put into the tank after they are caught they run round and round and round to avoid the shark and they are very active until they come to the shore the Japanese like to fish very much so you have to put your plans into practice the Japanese way now the five issues of case management RKMMO role of such as knowledge of law judicial method how you are going to deal with the matter cases management of lawyers and judges organization and the approach FM first aim prioritize plan execute and monitor just like the first principles I told you the management systems now we have two management systems the national court management system at the macro level and the state court management system at the micro level but they're not working well now we come to judicial reforms which is the infrastructural requirement the system of case management national areas grid national litigation policy national framework of court excellence this is all that we have we are not using it well the system of performance parameters if you look up you will be able to find you have got e-courts now you can run through all of this and the lesser ones are the ones with which you will not be concerned increased strength of judges now we can have ad hoc judges for example a very solitary provision in our constitution but it is not used now for example a lawyer who is doing very well who is very well versed in some particular aspect of law if he can become a judge for two years and if he is allowed to practice in the same court afterwards he is going to do it he's going to give that much to his country and we both we were we would have many ad hoc judges who can dispose of a lot of things but the judges don't want it national pool for retired judges the retired judges are not the tired judges like one of our great judges this is Suresh who's recently expired used to always say I'm retired but not tired that's what I feel also so you can have a national pool and you can do that for example you are going to have the arbitration council now under the 2019 arbitration act amendment and we can have retired for this pool of their resources we can have them as academicians like for example today's webinar there's so many others who can do that then speedy appointment of judges which never comes about then raise retirement age it is very simple I don't know why it has not been brought about from 62 to 65 65 to 70 etc then increase number of working days because in every single other corporation and every single other profession people work for more days than we do but we judges at least and lawyers require some less time we have to think we have to research and then we have to respond so we require that much time but each one sexy vacations can take the vacations with lesser number of working days and yet come out fresh in the legal and judicial reforms again we define our goals etc it is more or less the same I won't run through it because you might be tired by now removal of roadblocks I'll just tell you readings as evidence is a very fine removal of roadblocks evidence of all witnesses together at one by one together doesn't mean at the same time but all witnesses coming one by one together not after 15 days 20 days simplification of proof of documents we can have old documents which are taken on record documents which are in bulk taken together in a group for example electricity bills of one year take them all together everything cannot be forged and fabricated one document maybe then the amendment of status which is not in your domain and updation of court fees which must be there I don't know what you are with Chandigarh but we have three laps as the capital limit now I've set out some CPC amendments of 2016 which are itself case management and that you can read up and so we can have it in this five ways in our system one is by amendment of orders of the CPC by the High Court you can work in committees with the High Court High Court practice directions with the Chief Justice can give judicial training and lawyers training which can come together as convergence training or separately precedence some of the precedents also give us case management principles and court administration which is the registry of the court so all this depends on us and I would complete with saying if it is to be it is up to me and if each one of us says it we are through thank you Ruby yes ma'am do we stop the slide yes yes okay I hope you are not tired not at all as you said that if one could retire but not tired the same way the lawyers are still only they say that the the most fascinating feature about the lawyer is that they never have any retiring age and since their mental faculties and physical strengths always go in tandem so it is very important I was just reading one of the quotes in your slides which ma'am you had shared with said failing to plan is planning is planning to fail so it was saying what we invariably even in these webinars we say that it's better to try and fail rather than failing to try so I was just reminded and then the second quote of yours which you had taken from the chief Keras successful people don't do different things but they do it differently so I was just reminded that the fact that you have made the ppt's in such a good fashion and taking a wide spectrum what the lawyer should do what the management should be done what all should be done so I realized that what it's very easy where there's a path traded what I initially said it's very easy to create a further path or as they say if you have a blueprint then you can create some building etc but a path which is very less travel that is the management how the lawyer should do etc rather we will ask since at least I have seen your videos on this thing what is you feel that since you have been a judge and you're also witnessing what is the best way that the lawyer while preparing his case etc what is the way he should think on the thing thought process and how should he take into precedence because off late when we have been holding webinars it has also been noticed and a lot of judges and a lot of speakers who have come out here have said that off late we have started believing in doctrine of precedence rather than doctrine of interpretation of the statutes or statutes as such so what is that that and once you were giving so much story that I'm also just reminded off that you said that this was one story as thought to think about I'm just reminded that sometimes the thought process story of thought process it said that once the husband and wife were sitting in and having tea in a veranda and they saw the opposite side the ladies says to her says to her husband that look while they were sitting in their room look the opposite people those who have come to the new house there the the lady does not know how to clean the clothes they're all very dirty I'm surprised next day also they said third day also they said the lady said the same thing to the husband and eventually the husband takes one day the cloth cleans the glass of her home own place and then it said that sometimes you start feeling that somebody is wrong but you don't realize that in fact the fall lies at your place so as you rightly said that we have to change our thought processes to improve the out of box ideas and we have sometimes to relook revisit and do the same before we take the question ma'am again that same very question since you have it has been during these webinars on our platform as otherwise on the YouTube etc I found so I thought that it's a good occasion where the lawyers would also like to know what is the best way let's assume there are 200 pages 300 pages or 500 pages how should one learn that art of skimming of the real facts and analyzing the lawyers what is your take like because you also as a judge get the occasion where there are 300 pages and 500 and sometimes there can be bad lawyers like us who do not assist in the way that it should be assisted then how are you chiseled out the right things in the right way so that the lawyers could also learn that art well as a judge I read everything and then I underline I make my notes once I make my notes I don't look at the briefs I look at only my notes because that contains what I think is everything but that is as a judge but for a lawyer to be sort of like as I say you must orient observe and then you know you must decide an act we had one lawyer who used to be so verbose it was a very fine lawyer otherwise he was making a lot of money and one of those big ones but I didn't like his arguments and I told him afterwards Mr so and so you please don't read you are not a reader you are a lawyer you argue and I tell you he changed completely in my court he used to come and he used to tell me exhibit page 33 paragraph 3 and he used to begin that way and then he would tell me that you know this is a suit for specific performance etc etc this is the agreement and I am for the vendor or purchaser or whatever to the point because I wanted it to the point it is that you must find out what is it that that man wants you know when when a shopkeeper sells us things he wants to find out what is it that we want to buy you go to buy a sari he will not give you the sari that he likes you will ask you what kind of sari you want and then he will take out the size and he'll give you not you your wife so that is what a lawyer must do but so far as the client is concerned you must hear the client's story before you file anything and ask the client what is it that the client really wants very often you will find that what you think the client wants is not what the client really wants and you must get for the client what he wants that really gives that satisfaction I may give you an example if you want yes 100% I'll give you now when and I'll give you an example of what happened after my retirement when somebody came for consultation and I realized that this is in a suit where a probate petition was filed and then there were other litigations and the lady wanted to protect her house there was a business and the son was in that business so I said you are you are you are sort of you know defending the probate petition now she's saying yes because that has come up for hearing etc the lawyer said I said why would you defend this probate petition in this petition the husband has given the office to the son the husband and the son that is the father and son but traveling together to office in the same car the son used to take the father alone now the husband has not given the flat to the son the flat was in the name of the wife and he said that it will be with my wife until she dies etc when it was in the name of the wife so he didn't deal with it in his in his will so these people are fighting the probate petition I said you don't fight this because this matter will definitely end in probate there is no court who is going to refuse probate to a son who was working with the father but I said what is it that you want and then I realized that the daughter was coming with the mother wanted the mother to have the flat so that she can get it afterwards so I said okay now you have got a litigation of this flat please proceed with that litigation first so he comes down to settle and you settle with him in the probate petition and we then thereafter I called the other party we settled the probate petition we settled the suit and also some kind of a dv application which was filed by the mother against the son completely frivolous I would say there was not that kind of dv but the son said that okay I will get out of the house with my wife and children and I'll pay you this much etc etc and we worked out the whole set I think all were happy and we all earned that is more important both the lawyers earned and I earned ma'am they gained that point but what we said like what is the best way to skim out the facts when the brief is too long and sometimes you have that is the pressing again and again you have to read what you have written and delete what you don't want but you must retain everything which is required you can't delete just anything my husband who is doing drafting work he says that he always tells his students you see the learning tree and you do a pressy of it you know the learning tree that we have in terms of India you must read that you proceed and pressing is very important because it has to be precise and brief the very first plant in the country was in Madras High Court it was of one page I've seen it it is in the Madras High Court Library now and it is in just one page it was a suit for price of goods sold and delivered and the plant consisted of one sentence of six lines I sold that many goods in this many days on this late at that time I won the price which was of this and the prayer I would give it subject to of course what is the defense of rejection of goods or defective quality or whatever that is but it was as simple as that in those days that's true because they say for any good combination one has to be concise precise and concise that's the one of the ways that one can move forward that's what our CPC says yes Mr. Anurag Jain he's a advocate from our High Court he says in constitution matters most of the time our time is spent waiting for our turn so how can we plan our day for such big things in an eventuality how can it be done like in the court now we have got WhatsApp and we've got phones everything at our command you can send your junior to sit there the junior will listen to the court I'll learn a lot from that listening in of other matters and he'll call you when you go at the right time till that time you do your work in the chamber you do your drafting work you do you have your appointments and you tell your clients you'll come and go this is by Kumar Madhukal lot ship with a malicious false civil original suit for money recovery inspired by financial institution on a social activist who's a whistleblower at the final stage of order the activist is going to get 95% is there any provision for the defendant to sue the financial institution by criminal case etc in such a situation that that is even offense is made out under the IPC and that would be cheating if you can make out the offense of cheating it would be that that is new to file a police complaint and then they will invest here I'm unmuting Anju Sharma wants to pose a question directly she's again a lawyer and she's been following a lot of our webinars regularly Anju you will have to unmute yourself and come on the video probably ma'am we have Justice Manju Goyal also we will unmute since she's a good friend of yours and we also had an occasion ma'am Manju Goyal we are unmuting you this is I am available and then video see I'm not very computer savvy I'm a child in these matters but you know the demand of the time is I graduate also in these technologies it is so nice to hear Roshan I've heard her very very thoroughly as if I have to write an exam paper on her speech so although I knew her ideas and we have talked about these methods and experiments you know earlier on various occasions when we were in the national judicial academy so this is a very good idea to exchange exchange best practices I would say and best thoughts particularly we don't get to hear Roshan every every day you see I hear her only when I go to national judicial academy and and she happens to be there but chance if both of us get invitation at the same time for the same program now this formatting was such that I all the time saw the screen with those words written I hardly got to see her face she had closed the video ma'am I am seeing her no right now she's on this thing but otherwise she had closed the video and she was sharing the PPT so the format was nothing it was her choice it would be very nice if one corner of the screen could also show her face because I could see your face and I could see the face of Sumit Sumit concern no other face was visible I'm not concerned with that when the speaker speaks just don't take me a miss I'm a new person in this area but you know when the speaker speaks the speaker speaks with some expression that expression adds to the meaning of the words do you see my point we learn that in communication scale also you will learn how we speak a word is also important apart from the dictionary meaning of the word so okay how do I open my video ma'am what you had done is just like with all respect to Justice Maju Goyal also while she was also participating she had kept the speakers we hope we keep it everyone video is the choice of a speaker I'm just explaining to every every participant who's on the platform as well as on the Facebook Facebook peaker we cannot bring him on the platform but let's assume you want to participate actively it's I will just give an example I don't want that my video should be seen I can and it's audibility I'll stop my video now you know you're only hearing me but you are not seeing my photograph or expression what Justice Maju Goyal said so that while you was screen sharing at that particular point of time you had stopped your video so there are two options ma'am for this aspects once you are sharing the screen sharing there are two options you can also have your this thing and exact 50% of the screen is your face and 50% is a screen how do I do that ma'am that's on the annotation that's on the annotation I will take after this session we will discuss on that aspect and what Justice Maju Goyal is saying the ordinary process is let's assume like you're saying it's always a speaker view and there are two great views though we are going out of the context of the topic but I am saying that since we are regularly coming and we requested Justice Maju Goyal also to come on this platform so whosoever is the speaker he will come automatically on the front face let's assume you are talking I'm just giving an example ma'am you come Justice Roshan Dalbi automatically she will come ma'am just say two words it will be an automatic reaction I'm just saying Justice Roshan Dalbi will learn you know as we use this medium we will learn how to use this medium so maybe we can have her face half the screen or maybe just one corner of the screen so that all those valuable things written on the PowerPoint are also not lost I will just do that ma'am Justice Roshan Dalbi I'm just asking ma'am just she has seen one one of your last slides one of my last slides okay yeah if it is to be it is up to me we're still two letters yes now Justice Maju Goyal is speaking so her face is visible now Justice Roshan Dalbi if she speaks something then we can have it yes so your video is off your video is off okay put your video on on that screen sharing so this part is Roshan's face oh no but now I'm seeing all the four faces she has not a screen sharing plus video has to be on on the right side you will find that there is a button which provides for a speaker along with screen share that button ma'am has to switch off okay just keep the last slide Justice Roshan Dalbi now right now we are all being four-figured just show your one of the side a stream then you will have that yes ma'am not just speak not not Justice Maju Goyal will see that Justice Roshan Dalbi is also visible right now yeah three I think three faces here first is mine and then Chaturth and Roshan yeah this is also coming these slides are also coming yes now what has happened I will share it with you invariably even on any platform 90% people switch off their video just like per chance Justice Roshan Dalbi had not switched on the video and that is one of the reasons and you can see the name of the participant but you will not identify that who is watching it but there's one advantage also of that because it does not consume more data and there is a more stability to the entire function what you are doing on a streaming process but let's assume Justice Roshan Dalbi if I could just request her to have one sentence of her then we would come to know that her video is coming okay case management is yes yes yes not invisible in fact when we did the webinar with the bosses law schools ma'am at that point of time your video was on so this is the only difference I hope Justice Manjughal that concept has been clarified pardon could get you ma'am I I hope that what I wanted to explain that it's in the hand of the party I see I have started understanding things and as I said the more we use the media more we will know how to use it better and better that's today it took me some minutes five minutes to open get into this meeting I lost perhaps the first few introductory sentences but I was there when the first point was displayed so it took me those minutes but perhaps in future I'll not take those many minutes maybe I'll use less a number of minutes ma'am in a lighter way and I would say that practice makes a man perfect but they say that women don't need practice because they're already perfect okay ma'am and as usual what we started at the first instance that we had promised to the participants that the session would be engaging and always enlightening once we have Justice Roshan Dalvi as they say it goes synonymous with the name Roshan Roshan means eliminate and when the minds are eliminated once we have Justice Roshan Dalvi amongst us and of course needless to say we had heard a lot of praise of Justice Manju Goyal a former judge of Delhi High Court that she's a wonderful speaker the insights and we all know being the lawyers and of the profession that invariably these speakers who go to the national judicial academy or judicial academies we have also brought large number of speakers on this platform it has always been in session since I don't say engaging and enriching sessions since we have today Justice Roshan Dalvi an eliminating session for all times to come it eliminates the points and triggers of different issues in our mind before we are finally closed I will ask Justice Manju Goyal to say a few words of the webinar and then we will actually wind up the show tomorrow we have Justice CK Tucker former Supreme Court judge of India and Asim Pandya senior advocate from Gujarat High Court he has been the former president of Gujarat Bar tomorrow the topic is public interest litigation one facet Justice CK Tucker with handling and public law litigation that aspect will be dealt by Mr. Asim Pandya Asim Pandya has already been on our platform and his video has been widely accepted because his insights are different I request Justice Manju Goyal to say a few words of the entire show and Justice Roshan Dalvi Roshan and Chathrat and all my friends who are who might be still with us in the meeting I am excited excited about the new media and excited to see that media can do such serious intellectual work normally we see the media particularly electronic media as the idiot box and this certainly is not the idiot box so it's really making our brains work and function and now I don't use my learning as a lawyer but lawyers can use this learning in their future work so I congratulate you for having taken this initiative and for sort of roping us in for these kind of activities I have I am started I've started feeling that I'm very unproductive these days that feeling will certainly reduce if I keep joining your Zoom meetings and keep hearing those important speakers we would be too privileged that you join us tomorrow and tomorrow again as I say every time is a learning experience today we have learned something tomorrow you will come we will have more of the insights and once we bring you on the platform please send me the link I will definitely do that I will definitely do that and it it was just that I knew that Justice Roshan Dalvi had spoken well of you so once because there's a post I was just examining who have participated so I read Manju Goyal it was not written justice so I as they say as a lawyer of a sense it came to me that you would be there therefore I took a chance I had also sent you a private text that ma'am is there be that as it may ma'am it is a wonderful experience learning during these testing times and during these dark days it's always a wonderful and especially when there are judges of eminence of justice Roshan Dalvi and Justice Manju Goyal everyone those who want to stay connected with us we have posted a mobile number for updates on the webinars as we all know that we have done around 100 webinars and people are following up us on the youtube channel subscribing that channel facebook page as well as instagram do stay connected everyone stays healthy and safe and I'm quite sure the ma'am session on case management would not only help us to manage our case our thought processes but also will give us different flip to the mind and probably it is a time to revisit and relook ourselves as to what could be the best way as they say that if you want to do a long jump the best way is to move more further from the post and then run and then you touch the board further point so that's the way to relook ourselves revisit ourselves especially from the insights given by Justice Roshan Dalvi and we would be more delighted once Justice Manju Goyal joins us on a platform giving her insights but tomorrow as a participant we would request Justice Roshan Dalvi and Manju Goyal to join it's a topic as a lawyer as a judge my lords are well aware that public law and public lawyer litigation are interested yes ma'am you wanted to say something what time would it be ma'am 4 p.m notice we are doing at 4 p.m since the courts have started and I am giving another webinar tomorrow okay ma'am but we have a continued session still Sunday we have already booked everyone says right ma'am so whatever time you can get it kindly do test connect with us Justice Manju Goyal obviously have intercourse again I will send it right everyone stay safe stay healthy thank you everyone bye bye