 This week on the anxious truth, we're going to do something a little bit different I have a special guest on and we're going to talk about the topic of spirituality and recovery, which I've never done before So let's get going Hello everybody, welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number 212 212 recorded in May of 2022 if you are new to the podcast I am Drew Lynn Salada creator and host of the anxious truth This is the podcast where we talk about all things anxiety anxiety disorders and recovery So if you're struggling with things like panic disorder or agoraphobia, then this is the place for you Welcome, if you are a returning listener or viewer on YouTube welcome back. I'm glad you're here this week We are joined by a special guest my friend Josh Fletcher Psychotherapist from the UK anxiety Josh on Instagram and everywhere else on the internet Josh and I usually get together and talk about very mechanical technical Exposure-y type stuff when it comes to recovery, but today we decided we wanted to do something a little different We're gonna address the topic of spirituality in recovery Spirituality faith what they are what they aren't how you can use them. It was a really good discussion I think you're gonna enjoy it. So hang on for that But before we get to Josh, I just want to remind you that the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode There's a ton of more stuff There are three really good books on anxiety and anxiety recovery that I've written that appear to be helping a lot of people There is my morning newsletter email newsletter and podcast called the anxious morning There are 200 and somewhat other podcast episodes and there's all my social media stuff All of that you can find at the anxious truth calm It's all there and again if you are enjoying my work And I'm helping you in some way and you want to find a way to help keep it free of ads and sponsorships All the ways to support this work can be found at the anxious truth comm slash support So go check that out never required always appreciated I appreciate all of you guys and all of your support and the time that you spend with me So let's get going with the interview with Josh. It was really good I hope you're gonna like it as much as I like doing it and I will come back at the end to wrap it up And give you all the links and all the details Let's go All right, I told you Josh Fletcher was here here. He is right next to me right next right next to me How you doing buddy? I'm doing well. Thanks. Yeah We originally recorded three minutes of probably the most perfect audio and video you've ever seen You forgot to actually press record. So now I'm gonna purposely provide the dullest three minutes that you've ever had So yeah, and I was about to reveal that the one secret to overcome anxiety as well But I spy I'm just not gonna do that now See I blew it Josh was gonna solve everyone's problems in one fell swoop, and I forgot to hit the record button that happens Obviously, I'm joking Anyway, Josh is here even though he is dealing with COVID and I appreciate you taking the time and I'm glad you're You're hanging in there with that Yeah, no, I just I'm just the only thing that's getting me through is my sense of altruism selflessness and Outstanding modesty, so yeah, yeah Yeah, the funniest thing I heard from you was like, well, I'm doing okay Just that I've been reminded of my though my lack of immortality Damaging to Josh's ego to see the other moment. I was scared this morning. I woke up really like quite unwell I was really scared and panicky. I was like, oh God Few hours later, I was like, I'm fine again. There we go. He'll be all right It's a roller coaster, but I'm glad you're okay upright enough and taking the time today. Appreciate it So normally when Josh and I are on camera together or have mics queued up together it's really technical and dry and Exposure II and willful tolerance II today is not so much We're gonna talk about spirituality and all its meanings and amorphous ideas and opinions and gut feelings Which is something we don't normally go into together, which is great But I'm excited to do that because I never get to do that So we're talking about the role of spirituality and recovery and anxiety and how it all relates and what it might mean to each of us Which is probably different for every human being walking the planet in some nuanced way. So what would you call spirituality Josh? What do you think it is? spirituality is a very vague Broad concept and it's quite vague and it's specific to each individual its origins are from Religion It's you can have very secular spirituality Catholic spirituality, but all forms of spirituality across all religious beliefs But it's not necessarily exclusive to religion. There's a huge Modern movement of kind of atheist spirituality And kind of nature spirituality, whatever It involves the recognition of a feeling or a sense of belief that there's something greater than myself Believe it or not something more to be human than sensory experience that the greater Hole of which we are part of is kind of either divine or cosmic in nature depending on your belief. I Often have sprinklings of spirituality in my life, particularly when I was overcoming anxiety disorders And it's important to understand the differences between utilizing spirituality whether you're Whether it derives from your religion or whatever belief system that you have in your life If you you can use kind of spirituality if you choose to it's not essential, but if you choose to To help give you a push to overcoming Horrible sticky disorder anxiety and I'll share some examples with you Through this episode, hopefully. Yeah, yeah, I'm curious to see how it kind of fit in with you I agree with you on that definition I think it has to do with more than anything else connecting with something that is bigger than us and what that is Up to everybody I think Yeah, yeah, for me It's always interesting because and this took me a long time in my life to kind of figure reach this conclusion that spirituality and faith Could be two completely different things like there for some people They are completely linked and they are one and the same you can't take them apart and for others They have nothing to do with each other and I feel like I kind of fall into that category but the belief that there is there is something greater that we can't necessarily see or understand or Even maybe interact with who knows but it's there Yeah, and when you look at it from from from an anxiety disorder perspective, this is all I'm going to look at I mean, we don't want to we're not going to get into Sophocles versus St. Peter in a in a in a rap battle about of no, what we're going to look at is How it applies to anxiety source and this is just for me learning from my clients and stuff So people come into my practice people of faith People that use grief spiritual things like for me spirituality is something anything. It's kind of metaphysical Something that doesn't make rational sense, but helps you Get over the line You know, so for me spirituality was drawing upon grief. I am not particularly religious But during times when I was struggling with anxiety and struggling to draw upon Some strength and courage to do the things that scare me sometimes me I alone wasn't enough I felt hmm, you know, what what what can it take me today to get out and do something and it would be things like You know do it for your loved ones around here. I Did it for my brother who's no longer here anymore did it for my father who's no longer here for and Yeah Empirically to the bystander it looks stupid doesn't make sense. I'm stood there I'm scared and I think of family members that aren't here physically. Mm-hmm. And yet for somehow Metaphysically it gave me the encouragement to do it. Yeah, I don't believe that they were stood there really I'm not necessarily, but there was something that I drew upon from the the spiritual realm that helped me do it and If that isn't spirituality, I don't know what is I mean And I love that and and they dragged me out of some nasty nasty places sometimes You know the good the thing that I love is when you said it doesn't it doesn't make sense or it's not empirical But it doesn't have to that's the beauty part of this I think it doesn't have to make sense nobody has to agree with you nobody has to believe you nobody you can't Don't have to prove it. There's no data. It doesn't matter. It's just whatever it means to you in that moment and and there that can be a source of strength or motivation or encouragement or You know when and look we all struggle we have those really hard days when it feels like it's just not getting any better And you don't want to do this anymore Sometimes those those spiritual things those things that don't make any sense whatsoever except in your gut or in your heart It can be important factors And I think they are they were for me in much the same way I would say we we have a it sounds like we have a very similar experience. Yeah, yeah, definitely I mean I would I would argue it's spiritual to help your future self Mmm, I'm not doing this for me. Maybe I don't like myself at the moment, but I'll help out my future self. Yeah, you know it's spiritual to If you are a faith is to actually, you know what as as long as I'm asking for help in a spiritual way Help for me to do the scary thing then that's perfectly fine When you're asking and delving into kind of spirituality and religion to help you take away the scariness Then it you go into compulsion territory and I work a lot with Clients like that who bring faith here and it's like well You know from a psycho education point of view that's absolutely fine To do that to help pray and stuff Pray for courage because you need to do it and I think you can utilize spirituality in that way And it can help you through it. Honestly, it's you know, it's it's fascinating Basically, this is because I'm really dry and boring, but like you can use spirituality as a tool You know, here he goes again talking about No, that's not true. I mean, it's not boring in any way it might be dry, but it's certainly not boring For me it was a huge tool and I had a oh, he said huge tool And we are here for I think for me and I had such issues with those sticky intrusive thoughts about death and existence and annihilation and all It was those I was really crippled by that for a very long time and I searched desperately I did that thing where I was searching for certainty in a thing that we can't find certain We have an entire department working on that since we became sentient and we haven't figured it out yet It's called philosophy. So what made me think I was gonna do it, but I did find Meaning in an explanation that sort of sounds like group consciousness I don't want to go into the details because it's not up to anybody to care what I think or need to care What they think but and that helped me because it brought me to the idea that like, oh, no, this is my job This is my responsibility to live this the best way I possibly can today and that might suck but this is my responsibility as part of that sort of collective if we're all part of this Yeah, it really helped me in a big way to this day. I still find some comfort in that I don't know if I'm a hundred percent aligned with it from a belief standpoint, but at the moment It was a tremendous source of not conning. I think but but strength. This is my job This is I have to this is not why just because so let me just Because that's it. So I have to do what I think we're very similar in that fact that we you and many people will be where it's okay to use a Spiritual element for when you are feeling vulnerable to give you the courage It's really important though to realize and you know me I always bang on about this and said it in previous episodes with you What if it's on my podcast or yours? It's you you got to make sure that you are getting the credit You know and it's so important and You know it You went to these these things You've you've went found this group you delved into that and it gave you the courage and strength to define your own Path and then you did it Whereas there's a big difference between going somewhere and asking them to take away the pain Give me the the certainty give give me all the reassurance I need tell me everything's going to be okay a hundred percent for the rest of my life No anxiety disorders love that And I know no I've been there and as someone who you know I grew up in a very religious family Well one half of it was And it's been like no we don't we don't need to kind of You need to be the one that's doing it and it's lovely and you can use Things to help you but ultimately you have to be getting the credit for it So if that's any religion things like that I also want to talk about like If you're looking at the broad spectrum of spirituality, there's lots of spirituality and like nature and things like that And for all the like the nerds and the empiricists, you know you've got the Look at the data of people like you know walking forest bathing Walking in nature to walk and talk therapy stuff like that being in and around nature the data shows you That it's just profoundly brilliant for your brain and your happiness and whatever How I don't know some people interpret that as well as a tree and it's giving me oxygen some people interpret that as You know, there's something quite spiritual about being in in a forest being something that's older than me But living on a planet without in the way it's supposed to be but yeah It doesn't matter why or why yes, just enjoy the benefit. Yeah, what's real like trees? Huge tree phantom if I'm a fan But it doesn't matter like yeah, yeah, there is I may get that there certainly there's a lot of data that shows You know that that is tremendously helpful, but who cares why? Yeah, absolutely. Maybe it's spiritual. Maybe there's a maybe there's some divine intervention there Who knows maybe just a primal connection to things older than us who cares? Yeah, if you're hugging a tree and you could feel it pulsing through you and it's making you happy You had no judgment from me. That's great. Yeah, you get envy Nothing but envy It'll be a better day today Now I'm with you on that and they who gets the credit is so important so important Because I think and I wrote about that when I was writing the anxious truth because then my community It's always I look I first of all everybody doesn't think I have such tremendous respect for all these people because We sometimes have that conversation in my community and it's always so respectful and so kind and so compassionate and so Just an open exchange of ideas. It never devolves into you have to believe what I said And I just huge kudos to everybody for being such good human beings but I felt like I had to address it and that To me in my view of a faith-based view in my experience It was like well if if there is a creator or some divine being that that you believe is there and that helps you That's great, but it he she them gave me these tools and I felt It's my part of my responsibilities to use those tools not to just ask that power to take it away But I do understand that some people do feel that the right way to do this is to simply hand it to something bigger But yeah, there's a tough one for people like you and me though. I think Yeah, absolutely Just hand it off and it will that will get better. Yeah, a lot of people there's blocks to people Accepting that it was them that did it like you're allowed. There's no it's not being selfish or Overly so I congratulatory to to say that you did it. It's essential. It's mandatory in in my and Drew's opinion Yeah, if you want to recover, you it's got to be you I hear a lot of you must hear this lot. You're like, oh I did the scary thing. I went to the movie theater and then I drove 30 miles to see my aunt Thank God. I got there and and I'd usually reframed that would like well if you're really religious, you know I thank God for giving you the tools exactly for you deciding to go there Yeah, and it's like it just subtle reframes like that And if you're someone who wants to pass The the credit onto someone else or who wants to give it or something else Just be selective with what you are giving because you deserve credit too. It's you. Yeah, you know, it's it's you Don't get me wrong. I Every anything can get credit indirectly family friends Faith religion support network Much needed medication, you know things can get indirect credit, but ultimately it's built around you and Just make sure you're doing that, you know Your spirituality is a tool for that for you to access it, but it was always you It's important. I think not you not to delve too deep into this because it can get a little bit sticky But you know, I don't think that that's a denial of one's faith I think it's an affirmation to be honest with you And I think there are many of people I think listening to us today that struggle with that And I know because they've been open and really brave about talking about it in some instances That the idea that that I can't just give it away and it's not getting better. I Have to do something. It feels like a betrayal of the faith and so Absolutely, and I get that and sometimes they're told it to be trail of the faith So I think if nothing else to to acknowledge in this conversation that sometimes That spirituality and faith if they're one of the same for some people can create a crisis in recovery It's and it's a real crisis. Yeah. Yeah, I hear that a lot and then obviously you include people with OCD We're religious group elasticity as a theme. Yeah, but if you're guilty and stuff like that I mean if you're if you're one of them listening now, you know, don't get me wrong We we see you so good, you know, you're not a bad person all these things. Yeah, it's about It's about getting your ducks in order You know, you're not getting rid of them. Just get it in order and see what's actually happening as opposed to you know, I just By me not giving a hundred percent of everything to something else. I'm being a bad person. No You're you're allowed to have your autonomy and again, we won't get too much into it But if you look at the basis of a lot of religion, it's about celebrating your autonomy Whilst living in a in a culture of appreciation and praise. That's a lot of kind of religious structure. You're allowed your autonomy Yeah, I think it's a big deal and for nothing else than to acknowledge that if you're if you're a little bit in that crisis and feeling between a rock and a hard place because of maybe what you believe and and Why that's not working for you then at least hey, look, we get it There's a place at the table here for you to work that through however way you have to do that It's the best we could say about that. Hmm. Yeah, yeah Yeah, but anyway, so I'm sorry I kind of derail that just a little bit. Sorry, you want to you want to crack at theology didn't you want to be spicy? You know what never here to take a swipe at anybody's faith, I guess I don't get to do that No, no, absolutely. No, and I've seen it I think the important thing is it doesn't matter what your faith is or whatever your spiritual belief is You can recover Just make sure it becomes an aid not a hindrance You know, you don't want to compulsively pray in the middle of a panic attack Because then you don't get the credit for tolerating the panic attack if you would need to pray pray before and pray after You know pray for the help that it was the courage that you had to do that if you're part of some kind of alternative Spirituality, you know and you want to thank the earth. That's great do it before and after But if you're going through intense anxiety, it's got to be you but that does it and I'll just do what I did like I remember like I Had to go into a hospital once terrified And I just kind of spoke to my My deceased family members and I was like which is ironic considering I was walking to a hospital and They were just yeah, I just I just spoke out loud and just Wanted to believe that they were there with me and that just that wanting that faith Was enough to kind of get me into the hospital. Don't get me wrong. I still believed it was me that went into the hospital but but There was just that element that was there. Yeah, you know, and there's just you do you do see these little things And it's about it's about your interpretation as well Like I have had weird things happen to me. It's weird spiritual stuff that just doesn't have an explanation and I'm like Cool, I'm not even gonna question. I'm just gonna Yeah, take it take it around why not take it and run with it exactly and I'm just think it was important that we spoke We spoke about this drew because you know, a lot of people do have that kind of spiritual element Yes, we're not I don't think we'll be writing a book on it anytime soon But it was nice just to have two people who can be very cut and dry with the approach to just talk about this topic Let's take a couple of minutes. It may be what you know what? Let me just shut the lid on this other Mac though because it's talking to me and it's making me crazy. So hang on There is no other Mac he's having a spiritual experience it's helping me by trying to set up with voice assist like no no no But anyway, one of the things that I do want to touch on a little bit is and it's interesting because faith-based spirituality can get a little bit Dicey we talked about that But that's just faith and we've all said you don't have to prove it and nobody has to believe you nobody has to agree with you Which is great. There's another side of spirituality that I think you've hinted at a little bit like nature-based Cosmically based and sometimes that could get dicey because sometimes that camp does claim that it is real And there is science and if you vibrate at the proper frequency and look quantum mechanics says that if you do it this way And that can get that's another thing that can create problems for people in our community I think that's a form of spirituality. I think and that form of spirituality. I'll just say it fuck it We're in that mode now It gets it can get super toxic more so than almost any church because of the oh no, this is science This is truth Like quantum I read about quantum mechanics in Huff Po and it said that we vibrate and so if you vibrate at the right frequency You will overcome your anxiety Yeah, you've got to you got to be careful when people when there's a Red flags always wave when there's either a fatalistic tone to these things or an accusatory term So some people it'd be like you're anxious because you're not vibrating at the right frequency or whatever or Mercury is in retrograde. Well, if you want to be that kind of spiritual to that's okay, but when it becomes accusatory And when it implies that it's something that you're not doing On a way that hasn't really kind of there is no science or Then there's a huge red flag and you've got to take a step back and kind of look at that critically There's a lot of people out there that will use that to exploit you They'll get on their soapbox and say things like, you know Use things that will resonate with you and then and then talk absolute Shite and get you to think that you know to start to subscribe to what they're they're saying. Yeah very prescriptive Yeah, it is and a lot of it relies on you just Assuming that the teacher is right. There's no there's no there's nothing really to back it up You know when a lot of these kind of toxic communities don't get me wrong I know people that that use it again in here. I've seen it before I've no people to use it to an advantage No, here's just the slaughter it but it depends on your Your relationship with it so for example I had a client here He's like, you know what I waited to this day because I knew that this day my forgive me This is probably insulting if they're there this be no the You know everything was aligned Everything in the car in my astrology was aligned and today was the day that I felt confident to go and challenge Magrophobia and they did They used it as a stepping stone and you know, I wasn't sitting there going, you know what? You know, I'm gonna try and dismiss you I was like well if it worked it worked and I'm not gonna even question it If that worked then I'm not even gonna dismiss Maybe it did maybe for you in your universe and your phenomenology your phenomenological experience That's what was required and that's great, you know but but when it becomes a case of hit your anxious because of Your inner werewolf is being shot by a Demi god circulating the third moon around Mercury Shut up man. You're talking nonsense Yeah, and I've seen that and again, I don't want to skewer it because it's true It can also be a very useful framework like anything else. I think that's fine But yeah, it can get a little bit nasty too when you get in that's I've had people who will literally argue with me No, no, no, it's the mercury retrograde and I don't understand any of it I will completely 100% own that and I'm clueless as to what the logic behind that would be but No, that you don't understand the reason why I'm having panic attacks is because of that and that seems But but no, that's that gives away all of your influence and all of your power. So it's bullshit You know, I could sort of imply that I'll say it drew you can play Kate. I don't give a shit I don't panic attacks because Mercury is in retrograde. You're not it's not why it's maybe Actually, no, I'll tell that back. Maybe you could be maybe your belief Yeah, that's your fear of fear. Yeah might trigger him because someone has suggested to you Yeah, and so the next time Mercury is in retrograde or another thing. I know it's very rudimentary and again, I apologize for anyone who's into that. I don't read about read about it a lot, but Yeah, that could trigger panic, but the very suggestion and the association you have with it triggers panic But it's not nothing to do with where The actual location of a celestial body. Yes, absolutely But again, it could be useful tool and I've seen it be same as you I've seen people use it to great success It's yeah to give them a little bit. This is the time. This is the time I changed my life. Yeah. Yeah I and this is the time we wait for yeah, I've seen that happen and I applaud. I think it's fantastic And I think in the end I've seen people You know do smudging and burn sage and do all of those things and I might not do those But if that brings you a sense of if it puts you on a firm base that you can jump off from what's smudging You never heard smudging. I just learned that that's you long ago smudging is I think it's it might be the sage burning It's called smudging when you just you circulate the the sage smoke or the herb smoke. All right, again I would only my ignorance. I don't understand the purpose of it necessarily But I know plenty of people who engage in that sort of thing and it does it gives them a little bit of a more stable base To jump off from and it works. So why would I do that then and a shout as well? The person's pitch out to people do like reiki and stuff like that my mum does reiki and things like that And you know, it's really nice about it. She likes she wants to practice her reiki on me because she's she's training it and stuff I necessarily believe in it, but I'll go around and do it. You know what? What's really nice is that it's a nice hour with my mum. I feel super relaxed I'm not thinking about work and actually that's quite spiritual in itself It's just really nice to sit there close to my mum and You know, she feels a connection to me. I'm lying there snoring. It's really lovely Um, and even I think that that's lovely. I think that's really lovely. I just think Yeah, uh, yeah, I'm not here to knock it at all Side effects and you know, who cares what the benefit is but in the end of this benefit go for it So I think you know the takeaway hopefully from all of this is spirituality doesn't have to be proven It doesn't have to be argued. It doesn't have to be you don't have to show me data You know, if you find things that help you get to the point where you can take the action that you need to take Because you've been given the the opportunity and the skills and the the strength and the courage to do that then been great and just And you know, and I'll give josh the last word here as a guest, but just don't let it become The the explanation for why your life is changing Because then then you give away all the because then if if something changes down the road and it's outside of your control It'll come I have a relapse to happen and we can come back If it was you that never got the credit for it, right, right So just use it to give yourself that that's the base of strength courage motivation, whatever And I'm yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I'll share with one of my weird spiritual moments with you and um, I remember Not so long after after grief and I was struggling with the agriphobia and panic and stuff like that And I got into an aeroplane flight to Greece and as it got I was really scared and as it got, you know Passed through the clouds and those and we were flying. I looked out through the clouds And this is sound really lame and weird and it always does but honestly from my perspective it was amazing I looked through the clouds and I could I honestly thought I could see some of my Relatives that passed away in the clouds sounds really lame I know but I saw it. I didn't even question it It probably helped that I had about two or three whiskies before I got on the plane But it doesn't matter. I'm not gonna question it. It was a beautiful moment Uh, and then a really nice holiday Just things like that. I just you know, I can't I never I never knock it, you know I can't explain it either. I'm gonna get mocked for that, aren't I? No, yes, you're not. There's anxiety Josh is a little cloud family. Oh, bless you You know what? I would never mock that So I'll give you my own little 30 second when my grandma passed away my mom my mother's mom And I was very close to my my mother's parents and when my grandma passed away It was just it was three of us in the house She passed away in Florida We're up in New York and there was only three of us in the house and I woke up the next morning And I was alone in the bedroom And no one until they put me in a box will tell me otherwise I could smell the the the smell of the sundae sauce being from a big Italian American family That's what I grew up with on a sundae That smell was in my house. It was in the house. I laid there. I made sure I actually smelled it I just laid in it for a few minutes. I got up. I got out of bed I walked around the bedroom And and the smell was still there as powerful as ever I opened the bedroom door expect I get seen to the kitchen expecting to see maybe Because my mother was up from the bar at the time. Maybe she was In the kitchen And the minute I opened the door there was no one in the kitchen. The rest of the house was asleep and it was gone Oh, wow In the worst moments that when I was struggling really hard and doing my exposure work I would smell the smell of my grandfather's cigarettes. Do not tell me that I didn't I can't explain it But those little smoking your grandfather's cigarettes was you were doing the I never smoked a day in my life, but I it was it was just like I was back in their house as a kid Now that is a spiritual moment and that's a lovely wholesome Yes Experience to finish your not so lovely. Thank you for sharing that with me. Well, thank you for sharing your cloud family with me and I think And and if and if you've only just tuned in The key to anxiety recovery is sundae sauce and find your dead relatives in the clouds above and you're good to go I will All right, my friend. Thank you so much for taking the time. Where can everybody find you? I'm going to give everybody this is episode 212 So you can go to the anxious truth.com slash 212 to get all the links, but where where can people That's incredible Anxiety josh. There you go. You can find me anxiety josh. Yeah. Yeah, just google anxiety josh. He will come up. I've done it Yeah spamming your inbox Anyway, my friend, thank you so much. I'll be back in a second into the studio Which is this very desk right here. We'll do the wrap up, but and we'll have josh on again And I will say this anybody listening that wants to participate in this discussion I don't know theology student clergy member somebody who has something to add I'll I'll come on with you. I don't know if josh wants to join that one day, but That would be great. Let's see. Sounds good Okay, we are back just as I promised here in the studio, which is the exact same place that I was three minutes ago Talked to my buddy josh. Uh, anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview I really it really wasn't so much of an interview was just sort of an informal discussion Which is something that I don't do a lot. Most of my stuff is a little bit more technical a little more dry and mechanical so I really enjoy it exploring that topic and we'll do that a little bit more and again open invite for anybody who has A little bit more to add on this reach out. Um, if you're involved in the faith community or you are student of theology or philosophy or you want to talk about some of that stuff Maybe we'll just do another episode to follow up josh is willing to come on and we'll all talk about it informally and Exchange ideas. I think it's great. I love having discussions like that. So if you want to find more about josh You can find him. He's anxiety josh on instagram His website is the school of anxiety Just go to the anxious truth.com slash two one two and I will have all of josh's links in the show notes for this episode And that is it for episode two twelve. You know, it's over because music That as always is afterglow by ben drake You can find ben and his music at ben drake music.com Go check him out because he's a great musician and just a good guy tell me said hello if you do And that's it for episode two twelve of the anxious truth. Thank you for coming by and spending time with me I'm going to ask you what I ask you every week Which is if you're listening on itunes apple spotify any place where you can rate and review the podcast Take a minute. Leave a five star review even better Take an extra minute and write a short little review of the podcast so that Everybody else can find the podcast and that's why we do this to as reach as many people as we can That's it. I am out. I will be back next week as always. I don't know what I'm going to talk about but I will be here So remember this is the way