 Welcome back and of course still here on the breakfast and plus to the Africa the conversation continues as we dig deeper and of course I try to expand the whole investigation Concerning the collapse of the 21-story building in the Ikori Ikori area of Lagos yesterday, of course breaking news Femio Shibana's body was found the death toll currently is about 36 persons that have been confirmed dead And of course a few others still recovering in hospital as rescue efforts continue and We as Nigerians continue to hope that a few more people Maybe more than a few hopefully are found alive in that rubble We of course will continue the conversation this morning. We're speaking with a legal practitioner. Mr. Tunde Eson. Who's joining us? Good morning, Mr. Eson. Thanks for your time. Thanks for joining us All right the Conversation concerning, you know, this disaster, you know goes in different directions One of them is with the level of approval for a 21-story building that was initially a Rumo initially the narrative rather that it was only approved to be a 15-story building But of course it went further to be developed into a 21-story building and that may be one of the reasons the You know building eventually collapsed. I want you to share your views with us on the legality of Going beyond the approved number of stories for a building Once again, thank you for having me for your program As a starting point and I say this with all terms of responsibility It often the place of the depth we got not to speak To the level of approved granted or not granted in respect of the last building It wasn't a proper person to speak to it the general manager of the building called truly destiny The second one we came out to say the approved granted was for 15 levels Not anyone And if they somebody who can speak authoritatively it should be in If there's another person who can speak authoritatively it should be a commissioner for physical planning and overall development Not the deputy governor Because what is thought is to give me this very bitter taste of the mouth that there's a white washing going on That is this wash to exonerate the developer on the part of the deputy governor You know I didn't say that we leave the political part of the white washing part of it and I'll come directly to your question It is the responsibility of the commissioner for physical planning and overall development To go on it and approve us On any building over eight Say that again To their son, can you hear can you hear me clearly? Missa song can you hear me clearly Okay, I would like you to repeat that you said whose responsibility should it be to approve uh beyond eight floors So approve a building beyond eight floors or up to eight floors You know interestingly When it comes to development when it comes to building when it comes to upper renewal If all of this before spending within the portfolio of the commissioner for physical planning and urban Development that is responsibility In fact, that's a knowingly of it in 2010. No, we best all of these Responsibilities in the in the commissioner, of course. He has he he has me It just is on time. You're talking about You're talking about last five. You're talking about the beauty country. Yes, we had the open renewal. Yes But they are all directly reporting to the commissioner. So that is his responsibility Of course can straight diagonal and say oh every ministry is is is an adjunct of the god now So whether you're the commissioner for For physical planning or anything You are an extension of the god lord but They today They approve us Is granted By the commissioner for physical planning. That's that's his job Okay, so um Let me also ask do you think it's possible to have an approval for eight floors and eight or 15 Eight originally and then he moves to 15 and then he graduates to 21. Is that possibility that that can happen? Of course it can happen. Don't forget that. Like I said to you, you have three agencies All that the commissioner you know for physical planning and urban development You have the physical To admit approval charity. You have the building control agency. Then you have the open renewal agency That it is the duty of the concept authority To say, okay, you know what I've granted Let me it it I've moved up to to build eight eight two levels eight story building But you have the you have the view that you want to You have the view that you want to increase that what you do is to go back to To that authority to say, okay I want to increase it from eight to 10 to 100 to one million But it is the duty of the authority to say That what you have there what this this this extension you're asking for Can it be accommodated with you? What what's on ground? So you look at it So you look at the foundation you look at the soil type you look at a lot of factors To grant or to refuse to grant the approval for extension Okay, miss size also um, we eventually will get we'll come back here because um, eventually I'm hoping that we can talk about You know a 21 story Did the government check to see that the foundation that was set up for that building could carry 21 floors We'll get back there But I want you to go on to talk about whose approval is needed to build beyond eight floors If you're getting to 15 stories, uh 15 floors if you're getting to 21 whose approval is needed for that I can I can tell you That I want to say directly because it's actually under the poll view of the commissioner for physical planning and urban development I can give that a straight up Okay, can you repeat that please Level of approval that you have just asked a question and respect of both within the poll view of the commissioner for physical planning and urban development One story It might be this possibility of the governor of the state to state and say, okay He would be the house of whatever level and I begin to give you a prover. That is not his job That's why you have subordinates like that the commissioner. That is his job All right, then so let's also talk about um, because There seem to be we're hoping that the panel would do its Diligence and then we'll definitely find out hopefully, you know, what went wrong at one at what points but you also would agree with me that The reason why we have, you know, codes and laws building laws and codes is so that people cannot build, you know The way they deem feats People should be able to now. There's a body the question will now be Um, now that you you know, we have the structure that was erected 21 Which body is responsible to ensure that? Enforcement, you know that the structure is actually erected according to the laws That guides building the building permits and you know, um codes in lego state So which body is responsible for ensuring compliance monitoring and all of that I can tell you that in the job of new technology you suspended the general manager of Unicorn 3 gsa, that's the lego state really concrete gsa. They are primary jobs in the complex and compliance So it is not enough going to come out to say, oh Yeah, but what I was getting was a 15th law, how did they get to 21th law? He had a responsibility to shut it down But like I said, I'm beginning to feel that there are other factors which I do not want to go to. I don't want to have to make contentious I mean, we definitely got that call back to overall room is is is on general manager The general manager was starting with the responsibility of enforcement and compliance came out to say no, this was all granted What is that to go looking out to say no, no, no, no, no, it's not going out to you and I So you even before I mean you had you had made reference to to the to the father It would be for the father. We're giving opportunity to see top up top left top Let that of the government are already going contrary to to each other You know, so that did the politics out of it. It is the beauty of the community and say to Yeah, but um Now let's talk about I mean if you if you know the story well enough there's a part where it says that Femio Shibana was arrested at some point for Going beyond the amount of flaws that was approved You're definitely going to be we do is that government they definitely government said What the government at home was telling what flaws? I mean in terms of the shame really I thought that should have been less to be to the content side of to look at all of this and follow up on their findings because what I see is a lot of white washing going on If nobody seems to care about the about the tool workers who died who died on the side There seems to be very consistent attempt, you know to pay the developer some kind of oh It's just in minor infraction. He was giving approval to butchery one flaws and all of that But he said that your question Is Who has currently been suspended Mr. So go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. I'm just going to find that okay has been suspended by the governor um After this incident you I'm saying I just was clarifying that mr. Bullahokey has been suspended After this incident Go ahead Has been suspended. Yes, I just was clarifying that General manager The beauty country they say and their powers beyond you which will not allow you to do your work The proper thing to do is not to come out as a potential and all of that. We're trying We're trying Because we came out categorically. He said I am the person Contrary to the right and the responsibility to monitor buildings in legal state So it was compliant to lay down standards And I know for a fact that we are giving it a 15th force Now if you mind goes ahead and beautifully won't close and you cannot control him What are your issues? I mean don't say well, I'm not the people I hate. I'm sorry Okay, so um yesterday when we had callings balogun and expert concrete Technologies, he talked about that. He mentioned some necessary steps that needs to be followed. He talked about soil test architectural design and mechanical design Electrical and structural design now. Is is it possible that one of these steps can be skipped? And could it be that you know, that's the case with the collapse of you know, the story building in ikoi You know He is He told me it was my job. That's a matter of course Now we'll make it easy for nothing maker states. So I don't know if the reviews are not there Well, they are not pretty complex with them Not complex with them So it is not a question of if you got those revolutions If you know I just let go of what is required for you to have the permits for you to have about two main legal states For you to do the legal state Oh So you're saying that it's possible that Yeah, so you're saying that it's possible that you know the developers or those who were You know involved in construction of this Structure actually would have skipped the process. Maybe the soil testing or architectural design And what have you it's it's possible What Without But Do you think it's important Do you think it's important that the legal state government begins to look at all the approvals that have been given in the last two years Um and does a thorough check on every Structure that has been built in the last two years Uh in Lagos that is beyond five floors After That's really sad. Um, we'll say good morning to Dikbo Ajai. He's a president architects Registration council, uh, mr. Ajai. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning Um, it's a it's a really really sad discussion, you know, and every time that we have to go through this It's it's really really hurtful But I want you to share your thoughts on Where we are so far the government has of course set up a panel to invest to look into this incident I've seen people say that this should be a criminal investigation And not you know situation where a panel should be set up Do you agree with that or you know, are we okay with just looking at a panel, you know, that would submit this report in 30 days I say I wouldn't agree Because I look at the I visited aside myself with my team And As the head of the seven regulatory body in Nigeria and president of ACCOM I believe that They are responsible for regulation I believe that at least any member of these seven Built environment Should be on that panel Because they are the custodian of regulation in Nigeria And they are present in each state of the federation And these people are not less than 10, 20, 40 years of experience in the industry Engineers, architects Tamplaner Um, because it's serving and I believe strongly that is the person that knows the history That can tell the story Uh, number two, I wouldn't condemn the people appointed now to be on the panel In our own system, we have the panel, we have the Tsukunama back up by the public of Nigeria by law And I think nobody wants to mess around So I think the The time given to the even the panel is too long because you know, Nigeria in two or three Weeks people will forget about what they are doing. Everybody will be doing what they want to do So I believe that more qualified professionalists, satisfied professionals Should be on that panel And their body has written a composer and letter to the government that it felt three days ago And I believe that The investigation is just the processes two ways and number two Think of What do we do? What is the Approval The process is approval process The second one is supervision So if you have a process and you have supervision The professionals on this particular building at Gerard Should be called upon to come and answer questions That's nothing that I want to answer anymore After you ask the question from the profession who has their registered license They can be tracked With numbers So they should be able to test the story within one week Then we move to the contractor What is the selection of the contractor when you get there? There's no contractor on the board No professional just put their phone numbers. It's part of the corruption and incompetence in Nigeria So I believe that We should We should start very well this time around Uh, it's not a large crowd of people Two or three people will find solutions to this thing You have the approval process you have the implementation process what happened during the approval process What happened on the implementation process? That's my own view that I say I think the committee May not be able to give in that Uh solution to this one. Thank you very much Okay, so at this point in time now, uh, what do you think will be the way forward? Uh, the way forward is to either leave the committee at its knees and Widen the the numbers And at the same time the main presentation on the air the processes Then the implementation That is a process in the built environment The the the the process are there You'll be able to identify from the consultant on this project You'll be able to know the papers like the architect said is that they approved Uh 15 floors And the build 21 It's track is trackable bring the papers. Is it true? It's not true. It's not a matter of suspending the architect Is a matter of passing questions for them Where are your papers? A layman will be able to know how many floors were approved How many floors were built and these developers so In Nigeria at times you just go to the side is that building in the name of developer The brief foreigners who are not concerned with our laws and where you come to this country You are supposed to register a medical doctor like engineers abroad in canada not america in europe Don't just come to a country and call yourself an architect I don't want to believe the people that were paraded on this on the screen that they acted the italians That is a bit in st. Africa. You can't do that in st. Africa. You don't just come to a country and start operating There must be rules and regulations Even a driver In not america You must get through stages before you can drive in in the streets on the road on the express That's the only way you can be as that is acceptable in any part of the world But our country is so poor off A bricklayer can be called an architect in Nigeria Then what is your number? Every architect we are no more than like Sorry, we are no more than 5000 in the country so far since 1969 So they have numbers and we are the device assistant APR numbers A number that an impulse wants to attract down the professionals in the industry So this is a computer age that I think makes use of uh of technology So I saw on the screen yesterday night So the the site was so bad that they were trying to arrest people on the site That's not the process Who are the people involved? Two or ten people, twenty people Interviewed them within one week We get the answers We now go where the materials are really okay or not We have a process where we go to the lab to test the iron rod To test the materials to test the block And the architect or the engineer who have recorders In two days the record we may provide We may be available for all to really know what is the problem But presently in the country the country is developing in a realtor's home Anybody can just start anything Going on a developer we get approval for two buildings is building 50 200 They are there All right, let me start, I'll try to hold on It's professional Yeah, um I mean there's there's nothing you know about this whole discussion that Um doesn't make me sad Toon, let's let me let me bring you back in I'm sure you listen to uh Dikwa Jai is a president architect And I'm going to take same question to you Do you think this should be a criminal investigation instead of a panel being set up To submit their report in 30 days and and whatnot You know You But don't you also think maybe we'll go back to Mr. Jai now Don't you think that at this point in time because he's mentioned that You know, we have laws. There are a lot of regulations. We are over-regulated But the issue now is the fact that there's no implementation But in this particular case, there's a body that's responsible to ensure compliance and Should we not be putting the blame on the person who knows that there are laws and people should ensure that You know, there's compliance with the building code and the building permits Well, um, on my side, I don't believe that there are many regulators There are state regulates the regulatory bodies There are national regulatory body, which is allowed And uh, they have their functions The only thing that we see in Lakers is that They are not well equipped They don't have vehicles to police the state of regular structures Individuals are faster It's faster than government So before they get there the house is built And the next thing for to bring people down to start begging That they should leave a sentiment comes in But as I said, there should be process the process should be monitored by the state regulatory body Which is tamplan in this Then the federal Will look into it and show that they are members Of the professional body seven reviews seven seven professionals in the built environment They have numbers through the signboard as a display your signboard So that they can be tracked in this case They just put their phone numbers there and when you call the phone number It's not going So the next thing you do they should put their number there They should put their code there so they can be located. They can be tracked down by the regulatory body federal So I don't think they have a regretted in first instance. Then number two Uh, it's unfortunate that's very sad way every day we start, uh, we can see this thing once and for all as I said earlier This process Is divided into two process of Approval plans the implementation. That's all The implementation are being supervised by the state government by law The numbers deployed Displaced on the board Will be used by the professionals To know whether who is the architect? How competent? Who is the engineer? Who is the contents of me, but I don't do it So this is the problem Then concerning the criminal investigation. Yes, that's another thing entirely the panel who look into it then back up by law But what I saw there in that place. There's a lot of incompetence I won't comment on because panel is sitting incompetence in terms of materials Uh incompetence in the layout itself. You have 63 flats Where are they going to park? What area are they parking? And they are using sophisticated gadgets proposed Yes, are they going to say the cars should park on the roads? So we should look at the plan We should look out for 63 Flats maybe two cars per one flat These are very very important. Then when you see the plan itself Is it is it something that can be usable? The engineer was said to have reprogrammed. Well, I saw it. I didn't know the person who received the Recipulation letter. I don't think we are currently see it The architect that is there well on and we are checked We have not seen the architect So we should do the process of tracking The architect was not registered in uh archon the architect on that project was not registered With your body so far from what we have had on the on the screen rumor We have not been able to shut down because on our record We did not see the apr number of that project because we have designed a system That when you are on a project before you start You buy you you you assess your apr Is going to be sent to you personally on each project in the country Therefore, if anything happens, you track down the architect This is for the engineers This is for the companies of the Oh, wow. Um I want to look into other things when these people are not employed To their song, we're we're going to bring it back in in just a second But I want Mr. Dikwa Jai to go on with His his views here I've also just quickly mentioned that I've also just seen and this is where I want to dare son to speak on I've seen a video clip this morning of Femio Shibona who was Been interviewed in a sister television station Where he was basically saying that you know when he moved to Nigeria He used to listen to architects and structural engineers, but over time he eventually stopped You know and he stopped taking advice from them with his building projects He also spoken that same interview About a particular building or particular structure that he constructed I think in the uk Where he went ahead to create to add additional flaws Without getting approval I hope that that eventually goes viral. Well, I can't I can't share it But soon there someone will bring you in on that one. Um, Mr. Ajai, I'm still with you here I want you to speak on From the experience that you've had driving around Lagos Are there certain buildings that you may have also seen and in your mind you've told yourself or you've thought to yourself There's something obviously wrong with this structure and this is a ticking time bomb Have you seen some of all these, you know examples like that around Lagos? Yes, practically speaking. Yes That I want to I want to correct something that somebody comes to a country to say he stops listening to Regulators Concertants That's impunity How can you stop you get permission from government to stop listening to s acts It's a developing country. Yes, but these are people are well trained I spent eight years in the university of the D.Sc. Masters and An industrial training before I could pay my saturday And I waited for another two years of privilege to become an architect and today I'm the president of organizations of council of Nigeria So how can you say, you know, listen to me? How can you say, you know, listen to an engineer? I think it's impunity. It's a sad one One to one want to engage such a person in this country You see go around the Ikui go around to Go down to Shakati all those kind of places. You wonder what is happening around here What are they doing? And these who said they are not listening to expert Were they trained to be useless? And they say the expert are better to Nigerians or better than me that I'm talking about being part of the What are they talking about? This is a sad one. This is a sad statement Okay, so he stopped listening to a man He started to stop listening to an engineer That's a sad one Which materials which drawing which calculation will you show? You employ a bricklayer set of an architect? All right Please I think should be to be done in three days All right, so can you go ahead and also share your views on that? Where he says he has this scope of professional basically that's the summary of that incident And then and then reset the mindset of People in power Oh, I don't I don't I don't need a class. It's a man class that won't repeat He speaks to our mindset of now. I need to go to jr. It's a tentative area But on a daily basis don't get a bit pulled out and all sort of structures has cleaned up No control No regulation Let me tell you something that is funny. There's no beauty. There's no renovation That comes up in Lakers that you don't see you you will see the red mark It becomes a negotiation frame and what can I get you out of this? So don't think that there's any any development any renovation that goes on in Laker state that in quotes The regulators you don't know about so they come with that tea cred paint paint and they say a stop walk You know what it's about let's have a conversation. How much can I get so I can I cannot see That is that is just the reality of our existence So take the history of the development of us go back to his interviews Go back to his and maybe that's what they say in the park and what they're saying now Go back to the people that you know in the media You know in the clergy There So when you think of this way when I hear me like that, it's so much passion. You're just wondering that what really is the problem Can we continue like this? We can we can we want a nation like this? What is absolutely no respect for education? No respect for rules and those who are saddled with a prospect They talk about it all the way as long as you can do the need for whatever that means in the general context We thought the world was strong enough All right, miss. I saw to hold everybody That is responsible for this murder because it is a massive murder Yeah, miss. I saw I would have to wrap up here um If you are social media active, I think I just sent you a message on On a check your social media platforms. I think I just sent you a message um Tunde Esson, thank you so much for your time this morning Dikwa Jai president architects registration council. Thank you both for speaking with us Unfortunately, this is a really really sad conversation, but it must be hard. Thank you both and we wish you a beautiful weekend ahead We'll take a short break now when we return we will just head straight to the second conversation about a booger and the kidnappings. Please stick around