 personally. That is my understanding from this text, gotcha. And is we getting somebody from Pat Ma or anything in terms of the bike share or? Yeah. I don't know if it's recent or it's not mine. Okay. Okay. Well, we can get started. I'll call to order the final meeting. Recording in progress. I'll call to order the final meeting of this city council's transportation, energy and utilities community meeting at five o'clock. Okay. I would move to adopt the agenda as stated in our public fundings and I'll second that. And all those in favor? Aye. I just wanted to comment about that is that I know that there was an interest in under directors report covering what are main break protocols and that staff is prepared to talk about that under directors report. Excellent. That is that is that's the intention and having just reviewed it, I've not seen anything in my mind that would make that extended that would make the report a executive, you know, like a privileged document. There were there were some items in that document that the attorneys this morning, the HRC resource committee said that best we can talk about the document in open session, but not distributing this document public and we can follow up with the attorneys more directly if you want to. But yes, I would like to in terms of that, I would like the doctors to be made public and if there are things that are subject to the privilege that we should get some clarity on that, including the pages and the rationale under which that's right. So we will take that during the director's report. Next in motion adoption minutes from speaking actually two sets of minutes from our 227 regular meeting and our 313 special. So I would move the adoption of both of those together. So I would second that on this and so that passes and next we have public forum. Is there anybody in the room here to speak at public forum? Yeah, well, I have to just have a few questions more about the very specific but we don't do questions usually to the public forum. It's an opportunity for the public to tell us what they're thinking, either on gen items that we're operating on. We think else that they might like when we get to that, that item on agenda, you could maybe ask those questions and more on that if we could probably get answers from some of the people that are speaking for that. That's good. I'm seeing nobody else in the room. Do we have anybody online? Maybe anyone online? We have a point for it or go ahead and play. Yeah, I want to thank everyone for providing the airport information. I think based on the information, I would like to further request that the net zero energy roadmap reflect that both our electrical output and our airport are much higher creators of greenhouse gas emissions than what is actually stated, which is I think thermal and transportation ground transportation. So maybe we can update our climate action plan to reflect the the actual largest polluters of greenhouse gases in the area. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. Is anybody else online wanting to speak at the public forum? Ashley, no, actually, if you'd like to speak, raise your hand, please go ahead, Ashley. I I'm actually raising my hand to say no, I don't want to thank you for thinking of me. And yeah, and I guess just to echo that I'm pleased to see this report. And and just just kind of the general notion. And I know that this isn't exactly the topic of this meeting. But, you know, and I haven't had a chance to look at the report yet. It just came out. I just I see a lot of use of the word sustainability. And, you know, that's great. And I appreciate a lot of the work that the airport has done around sustainability. It's just for me, the larger issue comes down to an ever expanding airport is never going to be sustainable. That's not what we need to be doing. Flying is just about the worst thing that we can be doing for the climate. So I'd like to just just leave you with that thought and then certainly echo what Pike said about actually the need to moving forward, count emissions from the airport and from McNeil fully and accurately. And honestly, thank you so much. Thank you, Ashley. Is there anybody else, Maddie, which is to speak if you wish to speak in your online watching, raise your hand, please. And we'll recognize you. She said correct. Right. Is she part of it? She's part of it. Well, it was great. OK, then we'll go ahead and post public forum and move on to our deliberative agenda. First on our deliberative agenda, we have the airport in B-Tang here today, following up from council resolution passed last year. Looks like July 24th, 2023, and we had asked ask that the air guard come back and tell us about initiatives and work they've done out there at the base to reduce emissions. So they're here today. And we also have director, we have Colonel Finnegan and his some of some people that you introduced. So you've got Shane and Kelly. He's our environmental manager. And I've got Major Matt, who's our civil engineer, who's responsible for the construction of the green initiatives that we do. OK, and we also have director Longo here to tell us the progress they're making with the airport as well. So with me today, we have Marie Friedman online. She's our director of finance with Larry Lackey, our director of planning, engineering and sustainability. And I do support on our exchange system. Excellent. So I'll hand it over to you for presentation. And you want to do that? Perfect. Yeah, I was going to spend maybe 15 minutes kind of going through the presentation and the data associated with it. And then hand it over to Colonel Finnegan for updates from the Air National Guard. So I can leave Matt, he's going to put it up online or on the TV for you. It is on the website as well as the report and this presentation on the TV Diary website. Just as we get going, just a little bit of highlights on where we were, what we were doing. I think it was about a year ago. Buntzville, somewhere in that time range here at the TOA committee presenting with our sustainability consultant and then where where our updated information is. And of course, where we're going with our projects. That being 2016 through 19, we updated our airport master plan and came out with what we call the sustainability takes flight brochure. This brochure again is online. This is not what we presented last time. This is a previous brochure, but essentially it kind of gave us that that runway to look at the future of the airport and our action associated all of those sustainability measurements. And if you go to the second page. And this is kind of the list that outlined what that looks like and I'm going to go into the details of this particular plan because as we produce this, as we produced our airport master plan, which I assure you is a much larger document than this one. We we realize that we can do better on various items, both from a project and a planning perspective, as well as a constructability and financial sustainability perspective. And part of this plan and part of the presentation that we supported to you last time was this next slide, which talks about our partnership with the Federal Aviation Administration, the permanent transportation and some of the data collected. Last time we did have a 2020 update, the Environmental Protection Agency, just released this particular document earlier this year. In fact, about a week ago, they just closed public comment on the U.S. greenhouse gas emissions and SINCE document, which goes through data collected through 2022. And this information is just a couple of snapshots on the transportation sector and specifically the aircraft of that transportation sector. So just to slow down a little bit, this is from the latest publishing publication by Transportation, U.S. by the EPA, by the EPA and there. But and this is a snapshot of that or at least a part of that. And there is a link in here that so that we some anybody would like to delve into the numbers can get them. And we can put the link on here. This is at EPA.gov. And then on the next slide, it's going to have additional leads to the FAA. I think it's all associated with this. So I see I was wrong, I didn't want to charge you. So that's where the climate action plan. That's where you could. This comes from where other other information that's correct. This is I would I would definitely classify this document as kind of the master document associated with greenhouse gas emissions in the United States. This is specifically talking about a small chapter. I think this is a six hundred page document talking about the chapter of transportation, which is twenty nine percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. All that twenty nine percent of the transportation sector. Aircraft are eight percent of the greenhouse gas emissions. Not eight percent of the total U.S. emissions, but eight percent of the transportation sector. What's really interesting, again, this is updated information that top right and the bottom left, the broad data numbers on the bottom left and the high charts in the top right are from the twenty twenty one data. But the bottom right graphic is from this particular document, which is a twenty twenty two updated information. But the point being since nineteen ninety, the U.S. aircraft aviation emissions has decreased by almost eighteen percent. That means we're doing OK, but there's a lot of work to do. And we'll talk about that. And specifically with the patch related route international, whatever it is doing to contribute to those numbers. So, for example, and this is testing my old eyes on the left hand chart twenty twenty one aircraft, military aircraft. I see a percentage decrease. Is it am I accurate of sixty five percent? That's correct from nineteen ninety to nineteen to twenty twenty. Correct. That's correct. Good deal. And general aviation, commercial aviation, general aviation is a forty five percent decrease. Again, nineteen ninety to twenty twenty one. There is an increase in commercial aviation from two twenty twenty one. Twenty twenty two was very similar data. And that's why I'm really curious. On the next page, it really guides into specifically the Federal Aviation Administration documentation. Their latest climate action plan specifically specifically the aviation climate action plan is from twenty twenty one. The importance of this slide, especially since we were last in front of you talking about these numbers, is really related to sustainable aviation fuel and the climate goals of the Federal Aviation Administration. Introducing essay of sustainable aviation fuel into the United States sectors twenty twenty one, twenty one, twenty two is when we were last with two. And you can see that there really starts telling the story of how much is being contributed financially to the production of sustainable aviation fuels. And right now that commodity is extremely hard to get in the aviation sector, especially in the Northeast, more generally on the East Coast. However, that's more in line with our partnerships with Heritage Aviation, which is our fixed space operator on the airfield, supplying all of the fuel except to except to the Vermont International Guard, all of the fuel at the airport. They have contracts with their fuel carriers to start carrying sustainable aviation fuel, which is a really easy mixture of fuels that you introduced into, especially small airports, without actually making the fuel on an on an airfield. But from this graph, this is the same graph that I showed you before again from this twenty twenty one Department of Transportation and Aviation Climate Plan, really showing at the very top of this line chart going from left to right, if nothing was done with the aviation sector, that red line that kind of peaks towards twenty twenty five. Of course, the global and certainly the United States greenhouse gas emissions would increase. However, with fleet renewal, with new aircraft technology, both on engines and aircraft performance, operationally and with the introduction of sustainable aviation fuel, you can start seeing that the U.S., specifically the FAA's rules of hitting much lower all the way down to 100 percent of emission reduction by 2050 is starting to look normal. But again, with the introduction of sustainable aviation fuel. I'm sorry, but could you later, obviously, amend the slide before I think to have a link or at least a reference to where we can get this document? I was thinking, yeah, yeah, the EPA one, so we've got the FAA one. That would be very helpful. Obviously, we will definitely do that. And we'll get right over to Patty, but thank you very much. Now, let's talk a little bit more about Lady BTV's progress and some of our updates, specifically to the sustainability management plan, which we're going to take. All right, I think, you know, as we reported before, we were looking at two thousand nights to do the reason for that, for our baseline emissions. The reason for that was it was pre-vandemic and it was one of the best years the airport had had in a long time over the decade, but before 2017, 2008, the whole crash happened. So that's why we selected that the airport can spend hours over the last year and gather all kinds of thousands of hours, gather all the information in the indigenous report that we have now the baseline report that's on our website. So that is the 2019 baseline, because that makes no sense. So we have a place to work and do better. So we definitely couldn't choose 21 through really now because we're not even past our 2019. So in this report, we looked at scope one, scope two, and you'll see later scope three emissions. The scope one is direct emissions resources that are owned in control by BTV, such as fuel use, power, airport vehicles and facilities and scope two indirect emissions associated with purchased electricity, heating, cooling and powering facilities. So those were focusing on those moving forward also. Look at the slide, please. So this is just a list of the scope one, the scope two, and then obviously the scope three, which is the aircraft. So you can see what the sources are and what we study and what scope they follow here. And just as a reminder to listen to them and to the board. Like Larry said, scope one, scope two are the focus in the primary reason to get our airport carbon accreditation approved by the Airport Council International. However, at the request of you all and others, we did study scope three aircraft emissions, not just to order from runway to 3,000 feet or from 3,000 feet all the way to 3,000 feet to the destination airport. So we study that by air flight. Great. And the military is would be a separate document. It's not that we have it. And it is included in the inventory. It's included. It's going to be included in this greenhouse. Yes. And you'll stop it. Yeah, but the carbon accreditation program does not take military press. We are saying that. Identifying different places so that they're there. But if you're not fix it, yeah, that's right. So the next step with that baseline is the carbon accreditation certification, which we're hiring a consultant which will go out and verify our report and certify it to the Air Force Carbon Accreditation Committee. And then we can take steps. There's seven steps. We go for step one. Obviously, first get credit for that and go from step one. It's just mapping, which this will do what we've done. And step two is reduction of the. The remainder of what we need to do with respect to what we know now with the study we did is to get this verification done, which I just talked about. Develop a sustainable policy statement, goals and performance targets, identify and evaluate candidate sustainability strategies, develop, implement, phasing and early action items, prepare sustainability management plan and develop process for product reporting progress. So those are our next steps after the accreditation. And those are all in our next scope and next year's six plus years. Just as I know of the hundreds of airports in the United States, there are currently only 44 airports in the country that have any accreditation. We will need the 45th airport to get our accreditation in any one of these categories. We would be the second airport in New England to accomplish this. Boston Logan does have their level one mapping accreditation. We would be the second one if we get this accreditation before other airports. And then we would be the 20th in the United States in the mapping category in the entire country. When I stop in there, level one is just the mapping. It's just the inventory. The next step is truly level two, reduction and getting plans in place, action plans in place to actively reduce our carbon emissions. So this is more into the numbers of the actual report. Again, 2019 greenhouse gas emissions inventory, the pie chart, kind of irrelevant because it's such a significant number on the yellow area there. From the 2019 numbers, it's estimated to be just shy of 119,000 metric tons of car dioxide. Equivalent produced at the airport. 1.1% of that is scope one and scope two. The things that we control the buildings and such. 99% everything else is scope three, which is essentially the aircraft operation to the destination airport. That is really important. I want to thank you for that because at the end of the day, when we bragged about how couldn't we do that? At the end of the day, when we brag about how good we are and how we're doing all this stuff, and we should brag. 98.88% is not part of that. Those bragging rights, unless we have brought them in there. So I really appreciate this because I'm not into hubris particularly. I'm not into hubris. So thank you very much. And that's why we're so excited about the sustainability of aviation. We have to bring this to BTB. Otherwise, that 99% doesn't change. And both of the FAA, or 23, this is just a quick breakdown of all of the CO2 equipment. And as you can see the top three lines there, aircraft crews from 3,000 to 3,000 at the destination, that's called crews. Aircraft, landing and takeoff operation, which is the second line. And aircraft, auxiliary power unit, which is the third line. All really create that, that significant 99% from the prior age. What is their auxiliary power? So I'm going to give you a question. I'm going to run away. Not enough freezing. No, no. So crews and landing and takeoff, you're obviously using the engines that you, as you pass through the big engines. There's essentially a third engine that's inside the aircraft, a two-engine aircraft, that is that auxiliary power unit, the generator, if will, in the aircraft, that powers the equipment needed pretty much to start. These guys know much more about it. It's a start. It's a start. But what's really nice about it is from our perspective, is that's one of the things that we may be able to control, meaning when aircraft come to our team, a lot of times they do run that APU. They're running that engine, if you will. We have now moved signage at the airport when you go into our team. We literally assign it directly in front of the pilot's eyes. That's they do not run your APU if you can and plug into our electric units from our jet bridges, which now all of our jet bridges are being well-due when you're at through from your airplane. No, I don't know. No, I don't know. Yes, I'm good. No, I don't know. No, I don't know. Now, you know, for the caveat, that's not our decision. That's going to be a capitalist decision and the economy's decision about how to do that. So that was pretty much our scope three qualifications. Two slides, right? Because again, it's mostly aircraft operations. Scope one and two, when we start looking at that 1.1%, now there's many, many different categories and each one of those categories are something that we want to really, really dive in and start to control. We purposely put a couple of pictures of our amazing snow crew and snow operations at the airport and actually one of our amazing maintenance technicians just walked in the door and those three pictures really define the majority of that top bullet point, which is 45,000 gallons of diesel fuel. There is no equipment out there on the market, electric equipment out there on the market that can satisfy our FAA regulations of removing snow. So that's something we really, really need to focus on with the industry as time goes on. However, some of the smaller vehicles we can. Same with our emergency power generators, our natural gas, our electricity in the building, generally building emissions. Those are things that we really can dive into right now and try to reduce those numbers almost immediately. One of the things that we are going to be doing, actually we have done and thank you to the council because you voted on doing this and it was probably four months ago or so, is electrification of our smaller vehicle fleet. There's three vehicles on that bottom picture. One to the left is for our general air facilities maintenance division, which Damien is part of, and that's our very first electric truck that we ever purchased at the airport. The middle vehicle there is an Akid, which is now used for any time, any city employee leaves the airport for any reason they're using that electric vehicle meeting a new policy is set out that you're not leaving the airport meeting fuel. And I'm really excited about that last vehicle, which is the yellow vehicle. That's our very first operations electric vehicle. That's the, as far as I know, the only vehicle in New England that is electric and it's being used for multiple daily inspections of our runway and taxiway systems. So this vehicle, all of these vehicles are very, very much operational vehicles and we are no longer needing fuel out on those various scope support. Another really important item there is that top left circle, which doesn't look exciting, maybe right off the back, but it's super exciting to me. You have two tows right there. Toads are the blood pushback and pulling the aircraft if needed. And beyond that are what you would see more and more, which is chargers for our vehicles. Those tugs, they need a lot of power to push those aircraft. Specifically United Airlines has now invested in BTB with our partnership to install those electric charging stations to bring in new electric grants for women at BTB, something that's come out of our conversations up to. And then I'll quickly run through the last couple of slides. Thank you very much for your vote last night. We're super excited to get started on our North Terminal project, which is an aptly named project next. I got to speak about it a little bit last night. Essentially it's a 25,000 square foot replacement of our North building, four new gates, four new jet bridges, more electrification capability to the aircraft themselves. But really the whole point of this particular design was a heavy focus on sustainability and to make sure that we are able to afford that type of infrastructure because it is expensive. It is different than a normal build-out of a terminal building. The three major things that we're installing as part of this new infrastructure are geothermal. We talked a bunch about natural gaps that we use in our terminal building. This will help eliminate, especially in this part of the building, natural gas requirements for getting cool this particular building. So we are installing geothermal directly underneath the construction of this building. We're also employing a brand new construction method for us, which is a mass timber branding and many, many wood products associated with this terminal building all the way from the ground level to the third floor of this particular building. This view right here is the third floor. It's the nostalgic observation tower that's coming about to TV. This will be free security so you can access the space in your brand or rent for your own. A long time. A long time. We get a lot of comments on that. It's a popular space to be that observation tower where we really want to bring them back in and have events out there as well. This project, it's going to be patching your safety and aircraft safety too. This is the driver that's the space available and also the location of the currents and comfort site. That's probably the best. Thanks. Thank you. On the geothermal, one of the things that we've been pushing, I've been pushing for geothermal a lot around the place. This raises to my brain the question of why it works here so that we can learn lessons and when I say we, maybe it's just me, where it's appropriate to be pushing it. Why is it where it's not one of the technical things? Using this good stuff because I really believe that geothermal is essential to do and including your thermal energy networks for capturing heat as well. Really having us understand for use in other public policy decisions. Why it works here. Have you looked at the thermal energy networks or a second step if you haven't done those, where you're capturing waste heat and feeding that back in. That's one thing. It's a future looking request because in a way that you're doing a pilot project for the greater area and we should benefit from that. Where are you getting the mass timber framing from? Good question. It has to be from the United States and from Canada and it will be from Alaska or somewhere in the region. One of our initial concerns are we truly saving carbon emissions from a shrub across the country. And the answer is yes. We did a full study to verify that we're going to be saving carbon in the future. We did do an analysis on the geothermal too. It would be really helpful for us to understand. Have you talked to folks in the northeast in terms of the embodied carbon for the mass timber to see what's out there? We're in the very early stages of supporting this industry. That's part of the question that we had around McNeil. This is really important for foresters. It's really important for longers. It's important for truckers. It's important for property owners. What are their alternatives to burning stuff? It's important for us to know what's going on. It's really a question of are we in this process starting to help with the development of an industry that could be a main industry like Maine? Maine was a hot topic during that time. It's important for us to be specifically for the jet board because they also installed a mass timber facility in their terminal building. Not just for their mass timber facility but also the geothermal field as well. We really want to use Maine product if we can. If you've been in our terminal building especially on the south side all of the ceiling that you see there, that's all for mom wood products. That continues throughout the terminal of this building. We'll use various wood products in New England. We had to keep doing the out of our silos. From sustainable funding and sustainability greenhouse gas emissions perspective the cost of mass timber is very similar to the cost of steel structure. We're not the same but very similar. The last couple of slides are some of the details just to get a bird's eye view of the new terminal building. I didn't have too much time last night but it's a bird's eye view of where this new building is going to be placed. If you scroll two more this is the new interior of the building. With all of that ceiling it's all mass timber. It's all huge beams made out of wood we are creatively looking at these light structures. Once you have mass timber or security cameras we needed a creative way to implement those. Those lengths are actually followed out so we can install all of our accessories to the building without sacrificing any of the wood products visually. The simplicity of what we're doing polished concrete where we can instead of carpet which we constantly have to rip up and dispose of furniture. New spaces for passengers and this one in particular to the left there is a new kit zone for the area as well as a shielding on windows to reduce some of the light coming in. There's also shielding on the exterior of the building which I believe is the side of the building to create shadows within the building to reduce the heat going into the building when we don't want heat in the building and reusing as much as we possibly can of the existing structure everything that you see to the right pretty much above that car that's moving that electric car that's moving is all existing today to create what Larry defined as a saver in a more appropriately sized area for the size of aircraft that are now coming into the airport and I'm going to leave it at that. I had a big strong question and I wanted to get on to... I was going to ask a question so my question is 99% of the emissions coming from aircraft this is all great but one of the things that caught my eye was the slide from the EPA 2021 aviation climate action plan where we talk about sustainable aviation fuel you see that's where the biggest bang for the buck is and I guess I'm wondering why sustainability aviation fuel is a lower emission but why is it lower emissions? Is it lower emissions by using sustainable aviation? Yes so I think there's a couple of reasons why and Larry can fill in some of the links if I'm not sending it's a new commodity right it's the way that this people is being manufactured and produced and of course sent to the various airports using residual farming products residual draining products to actually create this fuel which then can be mixed with current inventories of fuel which is creating another level of easier access if you ask me how we were going to get sustainable aviation fuel knowing that this new product couldn't be mixed with current inventory it would be incredibly costly and pounding for small airports like ourselves just get the products into an airport or something but I really think I'm not an expert on sustainable aviation fuel I really think it's from the very get-go of creating the commodity all the way to the distribution I just shouldn't want to talk about this though I'm not a defect for a hundred yet it just has a lower it just has a lower amount of carbon I know maybe it attempted some of this about 14 or 15 years ago with great COO so it's just a lower it just has a lower amount of carbon in it and so those emissions factors go down considerably it seems like if you look at all the things we can do that's the thing that addresses the curve that's correct and that's my point and that 50% and 100% uptakes you've got on that so one is dark green the other is light green could you just explain those two it looks like maybe maybe 2% and some of it you can only do 50% you did 100% and you'd get massive emissions again I think that has to do with the deployment and how it's mixed with the current inventory of the US and the whole country here versus 100% sustainability a very very good resource for aviation fuel is that buying left length there that they have lots of sustainability and it starts dividing the process of how SAP is made and how it's deployed where it's being produced right now which right now is on the east coast it's mostly on the west coast and it's got a lot of really great links as we're getting back I am curious my question it's to expansion in the terminal I just voted for it last night but I did raise last night the question of aviation emissions and so the question of the increase in the number and the size of aeroplanes that are either a result of this but I did just talk to us about numbers like Larry was saying this truly is a replacement of what we have today if you've been on American Airlines or United Airlines that section of today's airport is a very small hallway essentially to get to those particular gates that was designed for aircraft that looked between 30 and 40 so if you had four times 50 seats you have 200 people some of our aircraft that are now used in fact most of our aircraft that are now using those seats are between 130 and 100 seats for aircraft practical so that hallway no longer works or an active taxiway longer aircraft it extends very very close it's not into an active taxiway and this is a problem and so is this meaning that say United is decreasing the number of planes and the size of their planes or are we booming and so they're going by God we'll just triple up the same for one with larger aircraft both so we have a small decrease in total number of commercial operations we have a small decrease in commercial operations in regional 50 seaters with 1 to 2 larger aircraft if you did this on a per capita basis so that 200 seat aircraft that would take 4 flights on a 50 seater of course and the demand out of the TV is there for those 4 flights those 4 flights are being reduced to a 2 to 3 quantity of flights a much larger aircraft usually going to 37 or the equivalent size so we can't get the same number of passengers on a regional carrier that's a reduction in operation and this building accommodates everything from that taxiway to the safety to the jet bridge to the number of seats inside the terminal to accommodate this number of passengers in a small period of time it can also remind us where we have brought people in from the growth is not so good so we show increases in our master plan but this would be an area of future interest in the economic as they relate to the climate issues what's driving it so good I can also add to that too those larger aircraft are flown by the airline that's actually located on the side of the plane typically a small regional carrier will not be flown by that main brand will be a subsidiary company those main line aircraft when it's being in the plane those are newer aircraft, newer engines, newer technology that all contribute to greater orbital pressure say less carbonations Boeing is a whole other question he would leave that one out that was just some snark on my plan I'm sorry I just couldn't resist that thank you for that we also have the guard here absolutely thank you I appreciate it thanks thank you come speak come sit down in a collaborative form look at common goals say we certainly have those it may not always be the same priorities but we certainly have the same common goals so two things I did want to cover I would like to talk about the MOU that brought us here to talk to you specifically and then to give you some updates I say and I think we're highlighting some of the places that we say these are the things that are in our control these are the things that we first got the resolution to be honest I didn't see it until I didn't know what it detailed until it had already gone through and it really highlighted from the need and this is what I wanted to share define and MOU what we can and what we can't do so with our federal mission there are things that are in our control particularly those is how we build them that work and then there are things that are not in control when I look at the resolution specifically it looks I break it out into kind of a different it's asking the Air Force and a number of parties to collaborate but I think if we start from the common understanding of what is possible and what is not possible what this number is that we can actually make improvement so the first one talks to specific plan to adopt simulation and augmented reality systems I would say for this there may be an inference in here but the goal there is to eliminate flying I can tell you that we have been the way in the simulation for about 10 years so prior to moving to the F-35 we had a regional simulator and trained simulators that we have here now with the F-35 we replace that it's extremely a big step but that in that simulation is moving forward but the simulation isn't from the Air Force's perspective it's more designed for training in the tactical environment which actually does mean that we would potentially fly less but there is a floor I think back to how this has affected us over probably the last decade we've essentially flown the same I was curious to see where 1990 was we've flown essentially the same and I would argue without the simulation we would have been flying that's just based on the complexity of the systems we should say can I ask a clarifier? sure so the F-35 simulators 18 million are they in place now or are you getting them in place and they're being used yeah we had those before that was part of our the other piece I'd ask is the reason there's a floor there's a safety element that can tell you there is no amount of simulation that's going to be replaced call it the fear factor and then there's an entire organizational it means airplanes need to be replaced so when the government needs the airplane to go somewhere it was just they just sit there our maintainers don't go training the simulators right now are not exactly there's so many things that cannot be simulated by the extended flights but we are certainly open to it the entire themes of people that are pushing forward on simulation to go when that technology needs to become available we won't be able to do it for a number of reasons but I would say that the Air Force tells us how much we have to work so the amount of flying that we're going to do is going to be driven by a number of factors which are attacking but it is certainly a symptom that continues to push forward and then the second piece of this was to reduce our or eliminate aviation and predominant greenhouse gas emissions I separate those two for the reasons like we just talked about the mission requires us to fly every one of these that's why I'm saying our current flying rates we're flying about an altitude of at least less than a year from the EIS of the house so we are already doing some very good work limiting the number of sordids and making sure that we maximize the trade and that it's flying you're making this public presentation so thank you for that I'm sensitive to national security and limitations in terms of publication how much of this can be put into a document made publicly available so that we can see for example if we talk about reductions then how many over an X number of years and how many there have been and so I'm just trying to get a greater sense the trust would verify approach to I was going to talk about the handling so we're working with Carol Frank we're updating our noise and sordid environment part of that update is to take real radar associated with the calendar for the operations small points all the way to the operating times so we're extensively working with to get actual quantities of operations and that potential reduction I haven't seen the data yet but those numbers are going to be within that so that would be in that documentation then they would be able to be compared to a prior one both the EIS and the prior and then the next iteration of such a update is in how many years so we do two maps we do a current condition and then we do a future forecast that will come out this year and it will talk about the quantity of operations and then if we want to continue our noise variation program we're required to do that or a major change I can't concede the next five years but the combination of the noise and mitigation unless there is a major change is causing the noise okay so five years right five years and there was one that was five years ago there's actually less than five years ago because of the transition program thank you and we provide all of the data roughly speaking we provide about 2,000 facilities here when you turn that into obligations which is what we're specifically talking about and then there's a landing that that would mean about 4,000 operations at the airport roughly a big chunk of those we don't do here whenever we deploy it let's say it was 4,000 and it's already similar to that so it's already significant so that's the maximum number of operations that you can have something where to drive us to the side of the map it wouldn't limit us from doing it thanks for that decision the Air Force the Air Force would yes they would be the ones but right now we're so far away from being in the ground when we did it first the other thing with the irrigation gases we also started researching sustainability but that fell into the category of what we're allowed to do and what we're not able to do and the Air Force itself has been looking at sustainable fuel not curled platform but as an entirety so in other words how do we support this operation for under CS35 the multitudes of aircraft it's not a bad spot now or whatever technical reason it doesn't meet the needs of our particular but I do know that we've asked that question and tried to pull that forward and made it known that when the technology does get to that point we want to be able to be getting it so that falls into the realm this is what we're trying to do so we're working toward that greenhouse gas emissions from the ground and how we're building I think it's the single biggest thing that we can do and to be honest these guys won't say it but both of them are nationally recognized for their work in environmental management and civil engineering and their professions but the facilities on our Air National Guard base we've been working towards and that's zero construction nearly 50 years we were the first ones to put a geothermal building on the airport and now I think we were not up that one building we talked about by going geothermal on just one of those buildings that we've done saves 26.8 metric tons per year which is the equivalent of 6 miles that's a single building but right now since we've done that 20 years ago was the first building done 2011 2011 and now we have 25% of the buildings are geothermal 70% of the base is converting to LED lighting we have another 25% that's scheduled so how much we can convert it's kind of a question for a new period of time every guys look at thermal energy networks so thermal energy networks is a combination of geothermal but it also is the capture of waste heat off of your whatever kind of equipment that you got if you had refrigerators or you had a sort of other equipment that's generating heat and being able to capture that and their networks it basically is a network that's linked so we use energy recovery wheels and all that would create that we have not looked at trying to capture refrigerators and things that have taken heat one thing we've done is similarly we have a lot of comm how equipment generates a lot of heat so we use that to try to recycle that as much as possible but no we have not looked at refrigerators computers and some of those other things if you did and you analyze that and had some sense of viability and issues I think that there are folks who are very interested in promoting those networks and seeing how they you know how they work and so seeing you as pilot projects are sorts of really appreciated in terms of the sharing of that information and you did it and you said this actually works what an odd thing that guy suggested some of that actually work being able to share that would be very appreciated by me and I think would be very helpful to lots of folks to your question earlier about geothermal works because of the guards work with geothermal as a data technology geothermal we have a really great understanding of our small geographic area that is kind of worth our ability as well so we weren't diverse this is essentially you know we got a huge development here one of the conditions that you've got that are not applicable and not going to work because it's over here sharing that information helps us try to be pushing for certain things but maybe it's not a specific thing maybe just people are not really looking at it is not willing to invest in it because as you were talking about in terms of the upfront cost needing to have a different which we're looking at stuff knowing how hard it is to own the money so I appreciate that Operating the budget is a way to combine how it's better than this it's a way to do it but we can serve it in sharing where those breakable so that start to make arguments cases in terms of looking at a long-term sustainability and why it's not all that smart to be anyways I just wanted to recognize that your ability to do a lot of this work going forward was predicated on us extending your lease so the Air Force would give you the grants that you would need to do that perfect segue that's going to say about our current solar farm the biggest in the Air National Guard provides for about 30% of the energy that are based so that was based on some congressional money that even does that represents standards that solar farm is still functioning in the interim the lease what it did was open up about $2.7 million it was a project that we had been working that typically these projects are multi-year projects but it's a $2.7 million battery resiliency project for our fire department so we'll capture some of that solar energy and store it in batteries so that in the event our failure to be Air Force or Air National Guard disaster of people in the fire department would support Air Force if something bad were to happen so I appreciate the lease definitely affected that definitely affected that we have a number of ones that have gone home for four years but the one that is probably the most significant we're awaiting I think the best way to say it is that we're appearing waiting comp for gradual supporters to get us a significant number of millions of dollars that would expand our solar farm creating kind of a micro grid that would allow us to store some of that energy that would get through solar and use our energy during off P dollars so that we were not putting in substantial a draw on the network that we have to do so not only the expansion but it would expand our energy so again that would be a multi-year project but none of these balls would be reported to get that lease so we would be absolutely appreciate it depending on your questions happy to dive further into those final versions I got to be the first to other business that we can have again to be out and see your base and before I had done that I just assumed it was the hang you could see from the main terminal it's much more and if you're open I would encourage other current and maybe future committee members that couldn't meet out there without warning of meeting but individually we could go out and have tours because I think it's we can have off there and the rest of the years are one of our honoree and I think it is necessary to open a video and see if we can see any other people just reach out to me or come with me there to put another company to not only to see the facilities but come with me there and we hope that we have also come to stop that old work to support the National Guard and I tell you that from my experience there every one of those people who run the companies to go over there to meet the members of the National Guard and to see how talented and dedicated we are so lucky to have that in our community and to see old people when we go over I encourage you to walk in the crowd and don't make the big shots meet the guys who do the work talk to them and see why they're so dedicated to be here from every state in the nation they come to Vermont to be part of the National Guard that's a tribute to what we have going on number one in the country and as a business person somebody has a lot of employees myself I love the high role of all these guys to give their work to some of our companies so what an honor it is to have them here and I can speak to those company presidents and bank presidents that have part of this now for about 8 years and all the privilege we've had to interact with a lot of those members and families especially with families with their second place thank you I think in terms of numbers I think that I guess that's going to be a request to maybe make a presentation and share the mapping, the noise mapping and any related admissions information that becomes part of that as well as maybe some continued dates the ground admissions for what I'm saying I'm not saying it exactly right yeah we didn't specifically talk noise but I can tell you that that is not something that we just put aside by any stretch but I do recognize for us to look forward with anything meaningful we're going to need data because people are going to ask for it so on home different profiles we have to put people out in the community we don't know what the difference is we think we have some ideas we need the backing to make sure we have data to forward with something so we can get that right we certainly I mean I'm talking about a relationship to admissions but obviously this is a huge addition I understand I know you understand you don't need to keep that well with any luck Council Bergman and I will be here for another year and we'll have you back I guess that's it thank you thank you I've got this but obviously I don't think I save I see I see that I took this I don't miss what we did you're up again you're a regular I have a I have a I have a I have a I was just going to say it interviewer we have the ideas and that's why we got changed of course so this is our next item is the GMT fair policy resolution we've had a little bit of e-mail circulating about this afternoon the city attorney just weighed in on this draft resolution does anybody need a print of copy I do I could use that and I don't think that I saw the attorney said you may not either they're included in this were just accepting minor corrections yeah no I didn't any changes there did you want to refer to it did the 2021 change on the top that was something that I didn't notice we're right there in the year 2020 yes that's a mid-temple I hope that the resolution that one was correct yeah that'd be bad if I didn't correct the two and a half I meant that the three minus under ten would be going on right it's still actual it's just not a okay so we have before us this resolution another resolution around GMT you guide our discussion sure and so I think that what changing the mind with life here is just clarity based on the city council's previous positions that there would be fair free service continued forward in the college street shuttle and perhaps expanded to the city loop that we think that would be the new fair system that we have that addresses equity concerns that we had with the previous fair system and we've also been working hard to have a more simplified fair service more simplified fair system so that there would be fewer unique rules on particular routes and that there would be a standardization of these and so one of the things that you know obviously Burlington is our most important ministry partner from a financial standpoint also from a ridership standpoint and so we're sensitive to the council's desire to have fair free service on the front but we would just like to have that be fought one of the things that you know I this is an area where I think that there may be a little bit of distance with Chapin and I is that I think that with one of the discussions that we had on Chapin was on a well-deserved vacation you know we talked about the potential of about 13 in a pause so that we would revisit this issue so that there wouldn't be a this is a decision that sets not for forever and I just want to make sure that you all don't feel like that we have to make a decision today about profitability for our fair system because the thing that I want to do with our fair system is learn from it and I'm sure that we're going to figure out that a lot of assumptions you know will some things will pan out like we expect and some things won't and I don't want to assume that we're not going to have a feedback here and say hey now that we have some data you know it may make sense to have some fair feedbacks so I think that's and I do just want to say I very much appreciate the support of the other resolution I'm very happy that Shellburn is loading on a similar resolution tonight and so hopefully that is a trend that will be continued with the other municipalities and also have heard some positive feedback from legislators that have offered some potential solutions and so I think that is saying that they're getting to fulfill the entire gap but they would fill the gap so that it wouldn't be a 29% that we're going to be able to make access to the agreement which is still have more than we want but to me this is less makes it less of an existential place of course so talk to me about the timing this and the necessity of the timing before I ask the bro question okay so timing in the sense that when do when will Burlington need when does Burlington need to to decide this you know really I think that ideally it would be before we return the bears and we're going to let you return the bears as of yet I will say that we've got some good news that we made it over a certain hurdle with Apple today that we haven't previously been able to and we're now in the decision where we're going to start testing we have to make sure that it actually works and once we do that testing we should then be able to have it available to the public for a strong when so that's helpful the other piece to that though is Burlington getting its property tax bills out to members of the public and so that's in June right I mean we got to decide that I mean tax bills happen as a result of the budget you can't do it without passing a budget so that's the timing for that because I think that one thing that may be missing if we haven't done this already is the outreach to the actual providers on these two two groups that I would really like were there to be a period of sustained communication with folks who are right now they're writing these loops for free and to let them know this is what's being thought of this is what the fairs would be this is how if you're going to qualify for the reduced funds this is what you're going to get this is how you get to do that and then to provide feedback to you all to us and so you would like that to happen before you consider the resolution I would really like that if that is possible when all is said and done the people who are using it are the people who are going to be affected by this there are people who are not going to be writing a bus for free and I would really one like for them to know and get that for hours last night you have to do all the public but when when the rubber hits the road that's when people go home I know how I do I can tell you that if I interact with the writers and I ask them about the return of the fairs and they're like what are you talking about you're absolutely right that if there's just some folks that I think will be trying to signage because this is like you got something there maybe we're even trying to get some community action people to help do some surveys to write bus information out it could be through AALB and other organizations because if new Americans are writing a bus they're not reading so I just really would like us to let people know and solicit their responses so that I don't get it yeah the five days before when it hits but I think we're going to get this regardless it's all routes we're going to have the same phenomenon on all routes when we return to the fair we've already done the outreach about the return of the fair so I think that this is like college city life doesn't change it's historically impaired so I guess the question is do we need to interview those folks how is and I'm suggesting that we try to help to get folks who could help us do this work so College Street has been free for like 35 years since I was a counselor first time right that's like embedded in people's thought that you can go from a boat house to the university in the hospital you're going to ride up that hill for three five and we've listened the last night that hours upon hours and you were only there for part of it Chapin was there for the whole bloody freaking thing and we're you know processes is a big concern and unfortunately poor and working folk aren't as vocal and engaged they just suffer the silence and I don't want folks to not know so that is I really believe that we should be letting the people on the two routes that we are saying we are not going to do what we did previously which is paying to have these rocks be free and consider that and so that only was free on College Street that never was enacted for the city right okay so that was what I was trying to convey while the council made the action in 2022 on Northwood Seattle fair free as we've been fair free since COVID so I'm good with saying you know what you don't know can hurt you but in this case it won't so yeah College College Street shovel is one that I think really does need a focus outreach so that people who are riding that bus up and down know what what is coming how they can make that system work how they can how they can alert their representatives on the city council that to tell them this is terrible I can't believe we're doing this this is this is buying it you know and I was wondering when y'all were going to do it and whatever other things people say one of the reasons why I think the request is is not going to be as difficult as it would be is that because we already have plans to have staff at the transit center to be helping people with signing up but I think that that would be somewhat easy add on to get people to the other thing that I'll say this would probably also a chance help people you know but you know my finance director is like why are we not having fare free we need that $57,000 and you know I was very principal when it's like no I'm on a simplified system we don't want to do those we don't you know all of that but the reality is is that that's $57,000 that would be great I think you'll get other ways what yeah you're going to get through fares instead of taxpayer yeah yeah so if you have teams help armless either way it's just boost and available the the one thing that is different is that the fares is not you know treated purely as a local match where $57,000 is so it is a little better that's a good point I mean the way I see it is like we have like you know any gentlemen with this resolution we've asked about funding we have a very serious financial issue about you know without without solving we risk losing a lot of service almost a third of the service and so it seems like we have to re-institute fares on these resort $55,000 $57,000 but but yeah I mean if we let people know it's going to happen and also there's people who can become sensitized to this right reduced rates they understand how to do that and they meet the qualifications and the thing that I just want to understand is that all of our accounts right now are based on an age and disability and I think that we have explored that and our concern was is that we are already historically about half of our ridership is already met with this country and that if we added then it would be like 80-90% would be equal so it's just age and disability just age and disability I mean this does lead to the need for TDM and which makes it harder and fairer to read and use it it's a different conversation I mean the differences between our college is that we have historically paid that and so we have done that for GMT and people have gotten that for years yes and I do know that like back in 2020 the cost of that route was around and the reason why it forwarded to 57,000 is that when suddenly all routes were free there was less traffic on the college street shuttle and so therefore the 57,000 was reduced because of the ridership and so if we do just one of the ways we're now at 45 minutes except at 15 so the question is is there a direct relationship between the two yeses so Chapin probably understands better than I do but it was the service level so if we had a I'm just asking if we had a resolve clause that basically said that there would be outreach and that's why I asked in terms of the timing I would love to see if you can do the outreach now to hold off on this I'm inclined to support this I think it makes sense what we I don't want this to be done if people it's a fake company I want them to know that for the college street shuttle and I want us to particularly with the lack of income sensitivity age sensitivity disability sensitive yet good income not as no not so good I want us to keep focusing on this so that we can get to the TDM so that we can start to bring this into that world we need to do that and planning now is looking at things and has a study which is looking at not new development for TDM others you know existing just wherever people are living people are shopping going to the doctor so that transportation options so I think that cleanness in a measured way will allow us to start to integrate into that that planning so in terms of process for this resolution it seems like if the outreach was done on college street shuttle can we bring this back for our next meeting and would that be soon enough because you're seeing at least four weeks notice right at least four problem by the time we do our user testing to say hey it's working before we make it by four weeks for download I think that will be this week and so four weeks starting next week and that's for the process to first meeting in April or two meeting in April and it sounds like that might be sooner or later we could take action then we can do that I think it will be four weeks out the council will then be a fifth or six weeks out so I don't know if it's necessarily a second if we needed to we could have a special action so we're going to meet when we get on the first is organization day not so I think at the council we back off it's 16th and then I don't know what our April schedule right now but I know that we have two weeks we're going to 15th and then March excuse me May 6th May 6th so and that's like we're right so the 23rd would be would it not be our 23rd is our normal right so I could this outreach on the college street shuttle be done in time to have reported to us on the the 23rd so we could act on the 23rd and then go to the first meeting in May of the council I hope to have fairs restarted by then but I can certainly have something some initial reports back to my I also can say that you know if we have our staff people that are getting on and off the college street show do you want this to remain there remain free they're going to send you out there and so I think that we just need to be prepared that I think the overwhelming response to that outreach is changing that people don't want anything to be free to do this so the way I look at it is that we are temporarily changing this policy for that room for these reasons and we're going to look at it again in a year and this is what the fairs are going to be and this is how you get how you can get a pass and work that system and this is how if you are eligible this is how you're going to get to have it free and if you want to talk to somebody about what the city council is considering you can give them my name and hopefully they can give them marks for the feedback so we've got to Gene's home landline my home landline for this was discontinued 1973 we had it we just did that but you can give them my cell phone give them my cell phone and so I think is we've got comments about it so I don't think you're asking them I think you're letting them know this is what we are considering and this is the way that this will work and if you would like to let if you have comments from the city council's committee that's looking at it you know you can you can do that and you're not giving them marks I have another idea though and like this is the last and I actually asked the city attorney this can we as a committee recommend something from the current council to the next council I'm still yes that's proper they don't have to do anything with so one idea would be for us to do a little bit of outreach or have a couple of individual councilors who used to set up bring this forward for the meeting on the 15th that we got a week's worth of outreach was for two weeks or something I didn't want to get into the logistics that are set up by waiting until our regular tooth meeting well I like to make things pretty well all the way around I think it does depend on the outreach and the effectiveness of that and again I'm not saying you should be pulling them to say you want to pay bears on this right so in terms of process how about this what about the approach because I think ultimately Clayton's trying to manage a whole list of our reintroduction of a new system and with half the staff that he used to have is what if the approach was adding some you must do outreach language to this say then the outreach will include flyers on the call street shuttle saying call gene you know reach out to GMT and provide feedback GMT compile feedback and then in the council packet for the 15th would be the whole list of feedback in that way I'm just sensitive to if it doesn't get approved till May 6th it may bumble what's already a tense relationship with the state because all the Clayton's effort to get more money from the legislature is dependent on quickly delivering and implementing fares so I just don't want to be sideways with the hand that we're trying to get fed from so I don't know if that but we could put signs up on the buses in a day or two so that the outreach to the people who are on that bus would be directed in instantaneous before a council action I don't know if that meets your intent but that's a concept I'm also meeting with the Teamsters again on Thursday I can ask them how strongly they feel about the way how strongly they feel about the way they sound I mean I'm not trying to back them off of that I mean I understand what they're saying it makes perfect sense this is just the other piece of it and the idea that we all got to figure out how to be in this together I'm not crazy about that I did shape it because if you get a get a major negative and there are compelling reasons why we should do it in a different way that makes it hard and then you have it you get that feedback in the packet and it causes you know people who aren't at this table who haven't spent the time with us they don't know so it'd be better for us to vet it first and I really don't want the new council to have their first introduction that you can see with something that's a controversy that some counselors would support so you know question of power quickly you can roll this out the council it's going to be seated so we would be individuals you know after that that's what you know the timing though speaking to that I take a hand this time my is she said she's going to be late but she had to I was this would be her last meeting so so I don't know how to I mean I still I'm open I'm supportive of this I think it's just a reality I also agree that it would be good not just on the college street show but particularly on the college street show but we know like Jean said it doesn't matter how many times to tell people they still act like they don't they still don't know because they're not necessarily listening or reading but I'm just wondering if there's a path to doing this to getting it done on the 15th not obviously as a took action if it was we were required first to do some sort of outreach but we could do a lot of weeks for two weeks we could still get in by Tuesday I am open to co-sponsoring with you for that meeting the outreach is done before that we get a chance to look at it as two counselors not the two and it looks okay you know and it looks like we've done a decent shot this is this is a focused way of getting people who are on that channel who may not be riding the bus otherwise may not even be going to the the transit center we'll have you post the resolution on the bus since they that's an effective way people are going to read that I'm on a job apparently I guess just to I don't know what the measure will be for us deciding the outreach has been done I think the measure will be probably my comfort though because you're comfortable already you're comfortable already so you know doing between tomorrow and the deadline is we have to tell the city attorney but it's Monday that we're going to have something Tuesday that's where we have to get in but we have to let them know that we're going to get something in on the so as the eclipse happened yes or no if we could get something on the fifth okay which is well I mean you're pushing for it to be tight I push it later right so you're getting whips off by yourself on that it's usually on my Sundays I guess the question is are flyers on the buses sufficient I don't think so I don't think they're necessary they're I think we need to figure out a way whether it's the drivers that can be a problem for folks I'm not in favor of like rushing this to get this there so I don't have great great answers for you it's a short time I I have an American American person that I think they're about to learn how to come from so I'll see what's the right what's the right of the average ridership on the bus on each bus you have is there a way to I'm thinking I do know that are planning boats and can tell you so I don't think I had whenever I see it go up I'm not full definitely so I'm going to take the chairs we're not going to say that I'm going to I think I'm going to put a pin in this I guess Clay is going to check with his American person we've got a scheme of other creative ways to do notice we're going to circle back offline that is and we have an action plan for getting information to Jean and I by there's six there's something like that and then right and then we're going to make maybe even be the seventh there's a color show run on the weekends too yeah I'm just taking notes here and then we're going to get together with that information and answer a resolution to be introduced at our first council meeting the actions that started I mean I do think that we should probably also communicate with Mayor to let her know that this is happening and actually that it would be it could be all four of us clearly are a rep to the board you're recommending this yes I am yes I am recommending this having heard from the drivers having this new policy and I do think there's an economic piece I know you talked about disability in age but the way the structure of the cap there's a economic protection that didn't exist that's important so I think the rep to the board the general manager I also know how you want to communicate with the well I guess you two are a quorum of the committee I could include just the chair and Clay to make sure that well I well and the other the other thing is that and I think that sooner the better but I would move that we would authorize a communication to the mayor from the committee and you know join by the city's rep to the mayor and the general manager that explains the resolution the potential for the resolution and the outreach that's going to be done previous to the introduction of it with the you know and that it is anticipated to go before the full council on the 15 so no surprises is that clear enough is that clear I appreciate it too it is for me is it clear for the notes okay good I would second that all those in favor assign and we can thank you thank you John he's going to want to plan with you okay next thank you are you going to their person I don't think they have me on until after my wife does have opinions thank you everybody thank you next 4.3 we have a bike share update I'm not sure who's giving that so Katie was here Jeremy Lynch was still on Katie's Katie here Jeremy should be on if you can allow him to enter the meeting or as a panelist there you go well I'll let you take over then Katie or Jeremy yeah sure sorry I don't have my video on but Jeremy and I are here Katie Martin with Katva and Jeremy Lynch with Bird just to follow up on the request to come and give you all an additional update based on what further information you wanted to hear after the February 27th memo update that Julia and her team provided so we're really here for presentation or anything given we have 10 minutes left I think if you had some direct questions that we could answer in terms of following up then we might be able to give you a better update if that makes sense so the one question that I've got relates to the parking of the bikes that I saw that you got Katie and you forwarded and so at our last presentation in the fall I think it was in the fall there were going to be some steps taken so that that did not happen and I'm just wondering where that is going when it's going to be done so that our sidewalks are not blocked by bird bites certainly I'll have Jeremy chime in a little bit and I think that no matter what we do the users are also part of this and so I think there may be instances where we find bikes in parking correctly and so the reporting and education to the users is going to continue to be a big effort of Katmas, well and birds really and I am also looking at the community too for that support and so I can't say there's going to be a 100% of the greatest users that are parking every bike perfectly but I think what we're working on here with bird and some of the things that they're working on in terms of I'll let Jeremy speak to them we hope that that will decrease what we saw those numbers that we saw last year thank you go ahead Jeremy yeah thanks everyone I would say I mean a vast majority probably 90% of the people that do ride the bikes parked them correctly you know the photo from last week was a bike that was had its rear tire out slightly into the sidewalk and the best thing the good thing is is that we have the comms channels open for those folks to you know I'm sorry sir I didn't catch your name but when you reported that the channels to report that in basically either community mode through the app or Vermont 311 those tag us immediately so like as soon as you would send it we're instantly notified the FMs are instantly notified that there's a parking that needs to be corrected and they're on top of it our response time last year was actually two days around two hours we were in a lot of times under 30 minutes the majority of the time that we did get those the best thing we can do is communicate to our members about where to park and how to park and that's one of the things we've already done when we just relaunched of course we relaunched right before a massive snowstorm but we were out for maybe four or five days we'd already sent out messaging to folks about what the proper parking procedures are and where to park and then of course we could hit with the snowstorm but we're going to continue to message those folks like I said last time we have the eco reps basically on Champlain and UVM that are working for forBird for some riding credit to constantly monitoring parking on those campuses the FMs are hiring a couple of folks to actually increase the amount of what do I call it like loops, sweeps throughout the day so they're available one of the FMs is actually taking the summer off so he's going to be dedicated constantly seven days a week to monitoring the fleet so that's really kind of where we sit as far as how that's going to look and like Katie had said we're relying upon people to park correctly and you'll get the good thing about in the same thing we saw with the vandalism it was few and far between people in Burlington are good people they're conscientious majority of people parked in the right location you get the small percentages that ruin it for everybody but for the most part hopefully with some of the things we have instituted will mitigate a lot of that we're not going to catch everyone right in the act just for an example last week some of the UVM kids before the storm parked in correctly we were able to get to them within 30 minutes of when they were discovered messaged or emailed all the students who rode for the last time and gave them basically listen if this happens again you guys are gone from the program so our mitigating fact is we can actually institute the one thing that's important to know for us to institute or to remove people from the program is that we need for those bikes to be reported to us so we can see who rode that last so we can correct of measures and doing that yes the FM can be there but if someone's walking by and someone sees someone getting off a bike it's super easy to report who that person is and that's kind of where we rely upon our members in the community to kind of help us out and that's really how that's worked for us overall I would say last year the program was a big success as far as ridership goes and again we have obviously as I said last time there's room for improvement and we're working towards that well I'm not satisfied that I took both of those pictures that I sent into Katie they were in one bike was not just a little bit in the neither one was just a little bit in the sidewalk in fact the space between this is on Green Street between the fire hydrant and the bike I mean it just and the crosswalk going across the street was just wrong I'm not really pleased with having when I see this to have another app on my phone that I've got to then you know burden myself to make sure that it's a sidewalk I understand and we'll do that going forward I want more proactive work from from Bird Colin here has talked to me and he may have some ideas of what other places have done that have been effective and have been on the company and the users as opposed to the community to police it so and I was I was hardened by the report that was given last in the fall I believe it was and the proactive measures that were going to be taken so I'm hearing a backsliding on that which doesn't make me particularly happy so anyway that's my perspective on this I would like to see more proactive work that can be put out there by birds or sidewalks or not blocks or handicap access on other sides of the streets and sidewalks is not impaired thanks for bringing up that I was just talking with Jeremy about that proactive slide and I think that right now we are working on addressing all of this and I think we can look back at those a little bit closer and look at the proactive measures but at least you understand the work that we're putting forth right now and I think I heard you say something that Colin I apologize I'm not sure who Colin is but if Colin has some yeah some ideas to share based on some other communities we're working on gathering that data from the Regional Planning Commission as well as our folks up on campus so we're really interested to hear more about that and those ideas and what you're all hearing from other cities as we pull together our research as well thank you Katie I'm going to allow Colin to ask his questions in just a moment but I had a follow up on Jean's question in the memo that we got on our meeting on the 27th there were four street action items that were mentioned that would that would be part of the parking management strategy for your 2024 relaunch and I'm wondering if all of the which ones of those have been implemented I believe all of them except for the additional park support coordinator with the FM's infield bike coordinator excuse me the infield bike coordinator exactly I believe that's something that word is progressing towards as the increase in ridership starts to happen Jeremy you can chime in on that part but I believe the other measures DVM's bike infrastructure rock infrastructure technology piece and the increase in FM hours yeah those I if I'm looking at the four I'm not sure what four the gentleman is speaking of if it's increased personnel frequency and uni solution no there were four it was in a memo to the committee Julia or Saki implementing UVM's bike rack map or app integration and then new proprietary image review product the infield bike coordinator and implementation of more bike parking slash racks those were the four okay so the racks and infrastructure is something that the city and I would think we'll be working with the city on I'm not sure that sits but that would be the only additional piece there okay that I didn't mention then I'm just welcome if you want to state your name just for the record and then you go ahead and ask your questions I'm sure hi my name is Collin Dermott I'm a resident and a student here at the University of Vermont and I'm I used the bike share and I've used several bike shares throughout the east coast and I'm originally from Washington DC and I've seen how successful capital bike share has been and I've done research on other bike shares like we have up in or like there is up in Canada with Fixie and then also in Boston the bike share there a lot of them feature docks yes correct and as a user I do find the bikes where you can generally park close to your destination like bird is doing as convenient I've also found it to be a pretty big problem starter with parking and moving of the bikes even after they've been parked having considered moving towards docks at all so great question Collin and actually we had a docked system previously it was quite expensive folks are trying we're raising funds and asking business businesses in our community to contribute to the system and there was you know we were able to make some things happen and get a system on the ground in the area but unfortunately the company flopped mergered mergered and then flopped and I think actually when we ended up going into this new system with bird having to go out for an additional RFP we actually found that the dockless system in our community was far more successful in terms of generating point-to-point trips than the docked based system that we had explored in the community for a few years so I guess that's I'd be hesitant for us to explore going back to a docked system in our community but we have bird here right now and so I think if we can learn from what other systems outside of docked systems that are doing well throughout the states and maybe in Canada if we can learn from them and try to think about how to institute some of those in our community I'd say that's what we should encourage ourselves to look at doing. I hope that helped answer your question. Thank you. Thank you Colin. I guess I know the company Lime they have bikes and scooters in other cities and they have a feature where in order to lock the scooter with a photograph and if you don't submit a photograph with proper parking you'll face like a fee or like a fine has that been something that you've considered? I believe that is part of the system Jeremy you can speak to that. Yeah so you have to take a picture at the end of your ride. Okay. You mentioned earlier the accountability feature of it it's just like you're issuing a warning and then if it happens again or isn't corrected the user won't be able to ride anymore or is there anything else for accountability on that? Well again we leave it open to our partners to decide how they want to approach that so finding is certainly a thing and I know that Lime doesn't find a vast majority of other markets and that's a topic we've discussed with the folks at UVM and Champlain and Katma about how to approach that and certainly we can approach it or talk about it with the city it's just not something they felt comfortable doing at that moment but it's certainly something that we can discuss and go forward with. Again it's left up to we leave those up to the partners to decide that's how they want to go about it but I think the bad actors are on the path to correction if they think finding is the best way to go we're happily to institute that it's very easily done it's just one of those things that we leave up to the partners that's a discussion that we have with our partners and we've had that with Katie and her team before Yeah and I believe that Chip and Julia and some of the folks over there have been on this communication I'm not sure that we've had much input from the city but we're trying to work through some of those conversations with the folks on the campus first and we've they've decided not to pursue that at this time That's all the questions I have, thank you Yeah absolutely Thanks Thank you, I have nothing further as well I appreciate you coming in to answer the questions today Thank you Sure Thank you all, we look forward to update as we see ridership increase and what that coming back to talk to you all maybe early in the summer That's fine, okay forward to that, thank you Thanks Next we have license plate reader technology Yes we want to give you a brief update on this given there's look at how we operate a more efficient and financially effective program for our parking services team and since we are starting we have been interacting with our lobbyists around some potential changes to state of statute we want to make sure you are up to date and could weigh in on this policy direction Remember Jackie Jackie started to work for parking and traffic I recently went to the state house and spoke with transportation committee about how we are and how it would benefit city and why the lawyers our lawyers feel like we're not authorized to use it the reason that we started to go down this road was because of the gap in the general fund and parking services currently contributes to the most here and we would like to do more of that and this technology would help us to do that we want to be part of the solution so the technology is would be fixed to a car and the car would drag around let's say in the garage so the car would read the license plate if someone did not have the credentials that are needed so either a monthly parking pass or paid for that parking but parking mobile or a kiosk the vehicle with that alert the person driving it would then park get out and be ready to get as they normally do the license plate recognition software wouldn't keep that photo the only time that this photo would be kept is if it were a monthly parking permit which is one of the new options that we hope to set hope to come up with so sort of like a punch card so someone has free purchase 30 punches then the photo would say you were in the garage on this day so you've used one of your punches Healy, attorney Healy has written some language which I included in the document on mine to change the proposed statue at the state level we're happy to get your feedback is in addition to being positive for the general fund also really can provide a whole new level of product Jackie had talked about we offer a monthly pass in the garage or a tailing we don't have the ability to say with the new Flaps Workers for 10 days a month you can park and get a discount there's nothing like that without our ability of having an efficient management program we really can't offer that so we want to get your feedback here if we're going the right direction get any thoughts for me at this time what was senate transportation's response so they were curious why we thought we couldn't use it because the statue doesn't explicitly say that parking services or some non parking enforcement that's not a state police could use it most of them were on board and thought that we could use it and then there was one gentleman there who thought that if we were allowed to use it then it would snowball into a state police who also want to use this technology to issue tickets to people or maybe to a way to feed greater or something they were concerned about that or they were supportive they were concerned about that they don't want that they don't want the state police to use this information is there any indication that this is going to make it into a bill that would authorize these powers it might we have been working with Jamie Fien and the city's lobbyist there is a senate bill 182 that has been discussed as embedding it into that bill we haven't been in touch with Jamie in the last two days since crossover but my understanding is to get it now we need to catch it in the house side and attach it to that bill on the house side so we're still eager and trying to sneak this in before the end of the session but want to make sure that you're aware of what we're trying to do so you're not surprised there are other entities using this technology now UVM is using it our attorneys are indicating to us that they don't think the legal ground is all that clear and so they're asking us to do the homework first which I appreciate how do you feel I notice they're using it at UVM and they've signed and syndicated they're using that I'm wondering how you think I mean obviously the garages are different but on street unfortunately how would it be a difference not at UVM they are issuing they're going through doing it as we would do in the garage or on street wouldn't really be a difference so someone has a permit at UVM or it comes out of the system they're using it the same way that we did I think maybe the difference is they're we're not sure but we're not sure exactly that was brought up in the meeting at the State House I don't know how they're using it either I think it's a good idea I like also the part about how we'll be able to keep track of the garages too knowing when people are in an accident especially when it's not using to identify individuals but just to do it there's no personal information just like I like that one of my complaints about the garage is although I'm happy when they're built the marketplace garage in particular because it means that there's people downtown but having to sometimes now that you just drive through you drive all the way up to the top and all the way back down when the garage is full there's no spots there's no we didn't know that we'd be able to know when to when to say the garage is full and because right now I don't think that's happening but I'm happy when it's like that now because it means that there's a lot of people there so I guess that the only concerns I've got related to privacy making sure that that is that we got built in the safeguards and it's I mean just reading that paragraph I think that the question of what the safeguards are to protect the connection of the numbers to names the DMV will be a quick answer that would be helpful there's a lot to our right there to be certified so anyone who's in the office must be certified the office is the only people that have access to that being the information so they are the only folks that can put a plate to the name the person service agents that are out in the field or this camera it's a plate you have no idea who that plate is attached to and the hacking of the system problem I guess I don't know I hear about data breaches happening all the time we're currently using the system we have it already so I hope that doesn't happen that I don't have the answer to the important piece is that the two aren't connected until there's a non-paying so as we're driving through we're just is someone paid through the photo it's the point where people don't pay with 30 days then we need to find their address and mail them at that point then we're connecting it in that same space with the license plate with the address and the deletion is a human action which is done the tickets are expensed after 5 years but if someone has a paid session the software is just not recording we're not even recording so the only time that we would actually take a photo of that license plate is if they didn't pay and the parking service agent gets out of the parking the photo or if it is one of those punch cards just so people can know on this day at this time we saw that your vehicle was here so you subtracted one day from your punch card that's the only time that we would take those and those would be expensed after 6 months and is that something that happens automatically by the program itself and you've got a periodic check to make sure that it's working well yeah we can do that the program that we use is called EAMS and it's actually very good a good process for us I appreciate that just giving these fail safes because things happen yeah I don't know we have a former excellent maintenance team member here Damian you've seen the operations that are helping you out on the site I think it will eliminate positions I think that you've used the revenue right now in two positions that you've already asked to expunge and abolish are going to pay for that now so I'm kind of really not understanding by finding out the information now I don't think the conversation we had prior to that it's fitting a lot more clear to me now than it did before because you won't have anybody that will walk the beat itself and do each one of those license plates license plates on their feet where now they're pretty much driving around and still in form so I believe that that will eliminate positions at some point in time for the union it's great for maintenance on the site but it's not good in my opinion on the site of the employees because I've already gone down this road before when the garages were closed and they were giving notices outside that the lights of the vacancies were off and I don't know why that's been taking a look at the parking lot as well when you drove by the garage and the light was on you were full you couldn't get in once the lights came available giving an indication going out for some reason that was has gone away but they used to be out in the parapins and that gave you a notification that you were there closed but there was a system then that where if we were in the garage we would make sure that 10 spots were always available and short the garage itself so that way when people came in there was a constant being able to find a spot but there's just a couple of things after hearing the information that I have concerns with on from a union standpoint great and I think part of the conversation that Damien you and I can certainly have is how what there have been an increase in union positions since I started this job and in our what the faith of those positions are changed over time and we should talk about what how we add the most value for each employee and in my hope that we can be delivering services that meaningful we can improve either through more menace workers in the garage more safety presence entering license plate numbers manually versus doing it by camera in my mind is is important because we don't have another tool right now but is a less efficient way of doing work than something that exists but these have security services that went through there during the summertime I know that the yellow jackets at one point time we're down there to have that but that's kind of gone away with that so it's kind of the broken window theory that if you're not having boots on the ground running that the element is still there so if you're driving around you're going to miss a lot of that element by not actually having the physical presence in the garage at the same time so I think that there's a balance to it and there can be some negatives to actually having that go through but for a financial standpoint that it's it's good on a business because you're I think it will still eliminate positions because you're not going to need those people walking around which takes a lot more time so I'd love for Labor and Management to have this conversation I didn't know it was unexpected I had white media I'm not expecting to be here for that I don't normally attend these meetings absolutely and it's a virtuous opportunity yes it's virtuous well it's not necessarily like I'm not blaming Chapin for it I'm just saying that during the financial because of COVID most people aren't coming down the park there's issues with the police stuff that is obviously going down with the elements that's down the town so there's a lot of factors playing into it I know that when I think I talked maybe to Chapin about this before about going through the garages recently just because I was down the town and I hadn't and it's a building at a long time that I used to take care of and by the time that I was there I had to have that rooftop open and plowed by 9 in the morning if I hadn't had done we were losing revenue and it's not even completely up even close to the fourth level so there has been some kind of transition of the lack of parking downtown and it seems to be efficiently with the garages so I don't know of this because the gates should be back down again so you can't just fly through and then leave if you're out of town or you're not going to pay the ticket but I think that there was a more revenue based part of that that once you're in the garage you had I think you're losing maybe some revenue based on they could just come and go and if you're not having the meters that officially got me today that they're going to miss some revenue just by the basis of only being there for a half hour and then you're just going to over an hour they're going to miss them so privacy was one I think that it sounds like some work could be done but in terms of the impact on union jobs that would be good for me I'd like this to be a win right, we can well Chapin and I went together for almost close to 12 years now so it's a little bit of a rocker but we managed to get it worked out so you don't require any action from us tonight no it was a great thing and wanted to make sure you were in the room clearly need to talk to labor and ultimately any sort of implementation of this is far beyond it needs council action we're not there yet this is just FYI what we're working on thank you very much yeah yeah I'm going to do the thing that when changes a union work then this conversation should be had generally speaking that's just a general well it does have to be figured at some point because the revenue loss is that parking is taking in right now that you have to get those buildings back up whether they're demolished or they're going to be repaired that you don't basically have the revenue to do it now so at some point in time it's getting really close that those buildings are of age so you have to have the finances if you're not you're going to bond it so yeah okay after that I'd like to close this item my chair and and move this along because we are getting quite likely but since we're so late I'd like to take a snap break I'm going to take a few these I brought this because it was our last meeting I'm going to take a few I'm going to take a few okay thank you for having me now we're going to move on to the director sorry about that that's why you know what I I asked you because you're here and I value you we have more pickings well I appreciate that so we'll move on to the director's requirements sorry for those of you and the pickings can you promote Magnum here Maddie so I think the only item given the hour is that we had said that we would discuss the employee feedback complaint we received regarding how we are approaching public works as approaching water main breaks and we had a productive meeting this morning with committee with union engagement and I have circulated to you all a investigation report that I put together based on my findings of working with division director Megan Moyer and talking to some union members as you'll see in this report here I fundamentally believe that we substantially did follow the protocols for the repairs on the breaks in question that said there are areas for improvement and training and follow up kind of procedures and policies need to be tightened up Megan can certainly speak to some of that and I am pleased to be working with a team that is rebuilding but there is a lot of interest in the water distribution team really taking the next step ahead on training and system development so with that Megan do you want to highlight I know you had a couple pieces even in addition to what we discussed today this morning and I can't hear you sorry just trying to remember how to share my screen when I only have let's see standby present hi all I just took the time to detail a little further can people see my slide I took the time to detail a little further about the various trainings that we are trying to do and other improvements anytime staff bring up a concern it is always an opportunity to dive in revisit things we have done in the past and see where we can make improvements so I just went through to share with you all and I can send this to you the various things the sort of running list of things that we have already done which are shown by the green check boxes or are in progress which are shown by the yellow check boxes and then there are certain things that I have not yet gotten to so the first one was the realization that again there is a huge group of new staff and while we have some really great folks that have joined us who do have experience Vermont has its own specific protocols on boil water and so last week we brought in Vermont rural water Paul Jackson came in as a trainer and did a three hour training for staff on the boil water protocols and she really she sort of applauded us for our check list and for our protocols and once we revise it to give it to her so she can make it available for other Vermont communities because as you read in the memo this whole process came about I think in 2019 previous to that I think and Jesse who has been with us for a while will attest to the fact that water mains were repaired in a sanitary condition but certainly not as rigorously as they are now one of the benefits of the Burlington system is that we do maintain a high chlorine residual and that does serve to protect us against contamination that might enter the pipe particularly total coliform I've never been in a boil water situation and I hope I never will be in which we open up a trench and what we find is a sewer main break co-located with the water main break because that without a doubt is a very, very serious situation and it's one of the things I flag that we really need to clearly identify that as being the highest risk and that there may be additional things that we need to do for the consumers when that occurs mostly when we're talking about boil water we're talking about minimizing soil coliforms from getting into the pipe but nonetheless the protocols are the protocols so the other things we've done are reminding staff of their right and their duty to escalate concerns about water quality as well as safety up the chain and to make them aware that direct supervisors are not being responsive so if they let the manager, the working foreman know or the manager or the director of operations know they have my phone number, my personal cell as well as DPW director Spencer's phone another thing that came up during the training we previously have had our employees just use a color wheel so it's a mixing of reagents and then they have to compare the color of the reagents to a sort of color chart there can be it's hard, everybody reads it a little bit differently and so while we have in the past because they are somewhat expensive and are a little bit delicate not provided digital chlorine analyzers I am going to go ahead and do that for distribution staff so that they can both easily as well as accurately measure the chlorine residual which is one of our best indicators out in the field and then obviously we need to train the staff to use those analyzers one thing that I think also needs to be clarified is actually writing out the procedure certainly the procedure lives in my head and we do we do have a protocol with public information manager Robert Golding about who and how we notify people when there is a boil water but I actually want to write it out for the staff so should they encounter this situation mostly they would be involved in making the decision initiating the proper notifications through me or other managers for a localized boil water notice when we look at what happened on Lakewood while I do believe that sanitary conditions were maintained had we decided to call a boil water based on my conversation with the state it would have been limited to that one customer and largely for the fact that had that one customer operated their system their own service line could have potentially sucked in contamination and without us flushing their line we always tell customers to flush their systems but I think in that situation I would have wanted to go in and actually flush it for them to make sure that it was fully flushed and that we got good chlorine residual so again there would only be the one person and so I think empowering staff to be able to make that decision and making sure that they have the materials necessary if they are not able to contact somebody I want them to be able to leave a door hanger big red door hanger that clearly establishes if the person returns afterwards that they shouldn't be drinking the water they need to be boiling the water as we outlined in the report you know there's we're going to continue to keep talking about it one of the things that happened with that is while the original employee did believe that they shut down the water main when the second employee came on site to finish the break repair they noticed that there was water flowing out of the pipe which was why the checklist was filled out as a level what break and as far as I can tell that all seems consistent just today I followed up with the staff again to clarify to them that the C 651 checklist which again is an internal checklist must be filled out at the time of the repair so there has been a history with past staff existing staff not always filling it out in the moment and filling it out afterwards it appears that that may have been the case with this particular break again the information that I'm getting about how the break was described everything seems consistent but I wanted to clarify to people that they need to be filling it out and furthermore I'm issuing the directive that once they fill it out even though they're going to be turning it in it's going to get scanned it needs to be filed in a location where we can all find it quickly I want them to be taking a picture of it and sending it to Ed and Rocky and me what's there done with the repair so that I know and I can sleep and know that that was done um the other piece is I sorry my dog is howling because there is a sorry I'm going back the other piece that hasn't we go through periods where people are really good about this but I also clarified for them that they have to notify the water break we have a water break email listserv which notifies a wide variety of people so that enough people all know that it's going on and it just you know kind of tunes me and at least when I see it and I know it with Chapin and with Rob Golding and others that something's going on right just so I'm aware so that I'm kind of you know keeping my phone more nearby so that if people need to reach me they can and then I've come up with a whole bunch of different revisions that we need to evaluate for the C651 checklist I want there to be clarification that the level 2 break while it does allow for shutting down of the main that it does require the maintenance of positive pressure during excavation I want to be explicit about maintaining as much pipe pressure as possible until that air gap is achieved the target is 20 PSI and we had a variety of debates at the training about whether or not it really was possible to achieve 20 PSI and be able to still keep up with the water so I think that we need to talk about that some more I want to make sure that the level 3 break we actually break it out into better risk categories that's I got to get the dog out come here come here come here you don't need to work I want to clarify that the sewage contamination issue right which is true E. coli that is a higher level of boil water oh no then the mud contamination total coliform and define what the clear actions are there's a couple of other things that when my my engineers put the checklist together you know it says on there to close down service connections which is the the curb stop for each of the individual houses sometimes that's possible sometimes it's not possible and so we need to run through what what are we going to do are we going to go into people's houses and tape off you know tape off their if in fact it's one of these serious sewage situations I don't even want them messing around with the water so on and so forth and then the last another two other things that came up during the training particularly around this issue of whether or not we're maintaining the 20 PSI or not is the trainer thought that it would be a good extra step of confirming that contamination had not occurred in a level one or two break by taking a chlorine residual not just at the end of the break when everything's repaired but like once you get down there and there's still water flowing out of the pipe if you take a chlorine residual and the chlorine residual is good that's an indication that there hasn't been a contamination event and that you can kind of proceed you know per the checklist so that's an extra thing that we are considering adding just for further documentation for ourselves and for the public that in fact we are managing things well and then lastly Mr. Greenow is out right now but when he comes back I really want to talk with him about whether or not we think that we could set up specific protocols for what I'm calling the sort of isolate and return framework which is what you know we thought was going to happen on Lakewood where we could shut the break down and return but what are the extra steps that we might have to do because there is some operational flexibility that is appealing to me and being able to say it's freezing cold it's dark we don't have good lighting you know we don't have enough people so on and so forth is there a way to shut it down and come back the next day and not have to issue a boil water the answer may be it's not you know to be cut and dry and to be 100% black and white compliant we should just do it if we need to and then issue the boil water but I kind of want to talk through that more with staff and then if we as staff come to an agreement about how we think we could do it safely then we'd go back to the state to see if they agree and with that that's what I have thus far but I anticipate that there'll be more updates and suggestions as we move forward I'd be curious to hear what Damien has to say I would just say if you can go actually back to the share screen Megan yep hold on sorry I've lost my I remember I have to share first and then which slide I think it's the second one where I talked about the list yeah if you can I'll make it bigger hold on so one of the things that I've been thinking about since I first heard this is at what point city councillors should be made aware of things and clearly staff crew leaders probably are not the ones to have to do that it's just an extra thing and trying to figure out because I don't think every city councillor should be alerted but the people that are planning the folks that are being impacted should know because maybe we'll get questions maybe we won't but we should know what's going on and so that to me needs to be part of this and I am not going to micromanage what happened here but on the next page the very last one seems to be what was implicated in this particular incident and I'm just curious it would have been I think the new piece of information right was that when because I was treating it as such that we shut it down and so that's what I was talking with the state about but when we went to the working foreman who was the one who returned the next day he described a pipe in which water was flowing out of the 360 brake in all directions so that plus the fact that I know that they flush and that they got good chlorine residual puts it I would say not squarely to me it is not a once you had that information it doesn't automatically kick you into the boil water category I'm going to revisit that situation because had the valves held then we would have been an isolate situation and I still believe that the sanitary conditions were maintained but it doesn't meet the letter of the law but because of the additional information where there was water flowing out I have no concerns about the quality of the water in that particular situation does that answer your question yeah I guess that the lesson that I hearing and taking and reading indicates that that extra work really is absolutely necessary to get greater clarity but that that's just what I'm getting and so city council being part of this I think is something which is probably not as we're not getting the context that we may should so to speak if you know what I'm saying can I ask about your previous question so right now without changing anything if the two times that we've issued a boil water in the past we absolutely notified the city councilors that were related to the area and so those two situations which I described in the memo were the one where it was sort of city-wide or not city-wide the south end depressurization and then the other one was the shore the shore road to the best of my knowledge we definitely notified the city councilors on that one and I think that the city councilors when we're issuing a boil water whether it's for one customer right that localized situation or the system-wide one I have no problem with making sure that the councilors are aware of that is that satisfied what your concern is or maybe that there's something where they're you know there was that you know like your last bullet that we just talked about needing greater clarification is probably a time that I would say we should know about it it's rising to it did not quite a boil water but it's significant and there are issues I might not be understanding at all I think as we revise these policies we can look at where are the right points to elevate to the mayor to the city council and flushing that out more clearly is good practice that's about that meets where I'm at and I love to hear Damien follow this myself yeah I would as well I just I'm still like asking sort of why why is this issue before two city council can I guess I just want to understand more about that I read the memo and I read the report I thought it was good and I thought the issue was being addressed with internal procedure review and updates to those things and I was I was personally satisfied with that but then I heard that there's still more airing of this that's going on I'm just wondering what's driving that I mean just to get to the crux of this how it unfolded is that the communication of concern was sent directly to counselors from the from the union and then I was receiving questions from Councillor Carpenter and the work and she had asked for my as director response to the concerns that were raised so I promised to put together a memo which I did and then chair the HR committee Councillor Carpenter put it on the agenda for that committee and because I think some of the concerns as we understand them from AFSCME sort of a related march up personnel management issues which I don't think can be discussed here at the TUC but could be discussed within the human resources committee and I think I mean this is proof that so here are changes in protocols and procedures it relates to of vital utility so it's on you know for my standpoint I don't I don't want to deal personally with the L stuff right that is HR there's a whole universe here but from the procedural stuff related to making sure that we're doing the right thing I think it's under the jurisdiction of the TUC and it was raised in terms of the policies and procedures so I think I mean that's why I okay so that answers my question I was satisfied with the report that was issued but we're here and I'd be happy you sat through our entire meeting tonight so I'd love to hear from you. Yeah after having the our committee today that there are problematic issues with Mr. Spencer's report that were brought up during that meeting that the C651 forms that they're demonstrating to you now that they weren't completed and we needed to be done what you were mostly six to eight of them for what I was told especially that name break that wasn't completed as well that that was on Mr. Spencer's report whether he knew it or not but that was done after the fact and they went back and predated those documents and then presented them at the council as if they were current and that in my opinion is an issue it's not in the report that Mr. Spencer put out and they brought that up today but they're correcting that now speaking on behalf of that my belief is that it was a level three that when I spoke to Mr. Greenall that Mr. Greenall has been with the city for almost ten years now he has licensed he's very good at what he does he was specifically told to shut that what's means down by Mr. Bogler is supervisor immediate supervisor it was also told to go and put a note on the door to let the person know that the water was shut off Mr. Bogler himself got a hold of trying to get over the resident he wanted to be on that to get a hold of his dog or his sister to let her know that there was an issue that he may have to take and not drink that water at that point in time there was from what Megan says slippage by the valve so if Mr. Greenall turned it off which he says that he did that if there was seepage going past that point in time there's no way that there was 20 PSI because Mr. Greenall himself actually when it was broken had to have a pump it was barely heating up so to say that there was positive pressure coming out it has to be a lot more than what Mrs. Morra specifying at this point in time when the water has come out there was no back tea sample taken there was nothing delivered to the plant there was nothing delivered to Mdyne that water should not have been turned down the total back tea sample came back and when the individual that came on to repair it the next day Mr. Greenall was still there the person that was the first day on his job at that particular location and sent Mr. Greenall in a different direction so Mr. Greenall was there that day we wouldn't be actually having this conversation because it was in the hands of somebody that just wasn't trained properly and I thought it was a poor choice by management that putting somebody in that's not properly trained and not that they don't have the ability of knowing about the C651 form that was not properly and that was the responsibility of the manager himself that he should have been on site that whole entire time if he's not having a license operator for distro on that site when the break happened Mr. Greenall employed to Mr. Bogler that they should fix it right then and there he could keep the positive pressure getting it done he didn't want to do that and shut it down so they backfilled it the next very next day when they picked the backfill out there is gravel that is put back into that area in 1994 and that also has the possibility of being contaminated as well so I know that they're presenting the positives that came out but there are a lot of negatives that came out and there's a lot in my opinion of inaccuracies that are being presented to you and you're only probably you're only getting 50% of what the story is we felt it enough because we deal with public safety the people in the water department that have been there that have tenure take a very strong responsibility as you saw Mr. Grollinger that has been in that field Mr. Greenall himself that brought it to your attention because it is in the comprehensive policy book about the code of conduct of the safety that does go out to it and whether it was 50 residents or one, one still matters in my opinion that there was a possibility if that person didn't have an immune system problem that it could have been compromised there are a lot of flaws that happened here that day that really need to be corrected and there has to be some ownership on it from my opinion from management and I haven't I thought I saw earlier today but it seems not to be the case and they think that that needs to be also corrected is there any other questions that you'd like to know I would like to know if you think that the protocol changes that are being published out would address I do the only one that I saw when I talked to Mrs. Moore today and I agree with her on it I think that there should be a meter for positive pressure that way you can gauge the very next day if you have to open it up to know that you're getting the 20 psi and I think that that should be a factor that should be purchased as well the culvert wheel that she had mentioned earlier is problematic the better testing to have your code on free is the mechanism that she's talking about that they use at the water plant to make sure that that is all out of the city when they go on test them so I think that there are a lot of protocols that are coming into play but there has to be accountability too so I think that there are a lot of issues going on at that point in time with the person that isn't charged that should have had or training himself to not pull out somebody that in that was their first day on the job and I did we did respond in the form should be clean completely filled out that day you shouldn't have to be going back in time and refilling those forms out and there should be a back piece sample taken you know every time that you feel that that shut-off has happened back okay I don't know there was a one for that break there is not one because ultimately that break was a level one break based on we do need to redefine positive pressure but we have never measured by a pressure gauge we cannot always measure by a pressure gauge when they are managing emergencies and whatnot and so that was one of the things we went into deep detail with the role water person about what would be a good surrogate for ensuring that even if you didn't hit 20 psi that no contamination had occurred you believe the next day that there was 20 psi coming out of that pipe I didn't say that there was 20 psi what I said is that there is water flowing out of the pipe and if there is water flowing out of the pipe that means that stuff is not getting into the pipe and that is at least what I have been taught so I don't so I'm not saying that 20 psi was there but I also disagree that it was a level 3 break a level 3 break there is known visible contamination or a contamination situation that leads you to call a level 3 I also affirm or with a cert that I know if the manager told Mr. Greenow to shut down the the pipe a boil water situation should have been triggered at that exact moment if he truly believed that he was going to be fully depressurizing and that that cascade would have happened and so I have as you heard me say I need him to say that and if Ed is not listening if other people are not listening to call me so that we can deal with that in that moment when I describe the situation to the state even at that time where I thought that the line had been depressurized given the extremely low risk of contamination given our chlorine residual given that we flushed afterwards again at least the state person that I contacted was not overtly concerned about this thing had it happened in the past and it was more focused on continuous improvement for the future so I also told Damien and Jesse that I shouldn't have made the assumption because a lot of times you do put managers in you install managers and they don't know everything but you do incorrectly in this situation rely on existing staff to keep them informed on the way that we do things and on the protocols of that particular workgroup and probably because of the relationship between these two particular people that information flow was not happening and so ultimately and I told Chapin if anybody needs to be disciplined it's me for not taking the time to sit the new manager down and on this particular issue which I don't disagree is extremely important and is a matter of public health I should have walked him through it myself and I didn't do that so I take full responsibility and you know hold myself accountable for that and if Chapin chooses to hold me accountable in other ways I'm happy to do that but I have no concerns about this particular incident based on the information that we got and I honestly even if the line had been depressurized given the years and years and years and how we manage breaks and because of the factors of our system we are protected I am not concerned about this and I am you know very bullish on looking forward making improvements trying to work better with staff and in the future as I as I had offered to Chapin when these incidents come up to immediately pull in all of the people so I'm not you know doing the goose chase that I kind of went through on this process where I was getting ribs and drabs of information because people weren't talking directly to me yeah the DEC they called Mr. Greno and had a conversation with them and there were gaps of information there and he also felt that issue been up through he had mentioned that to Jesse LeFont which they are supposed to bring to committee and there could be a possible violation we don't know yet but we did have he did contact them and have a conversation with them about that and he the other person that DEC however that talked to Mr. Greno did believe at that point in time that it was a level 3 initiative and it should have been that person didn't have the information that when they dug down that there was water flowing out and even when I talked to the person that I spoke with our compliance person at DEC that again I shared with you what they said and I haven't back filled to them that at the end of the day based on the information we now have that there was water flowing out of the pipe the only one concern that I have with this and I hopefully that Mark and agree with us that you said that there was low risk when it comes to the drinking water that is a product of the community there should be zero risk in my opinion that that should be the aspect of every single time and knowing to the fact that saying well there's a possibility but it's it's low risk there should be zero risk when you're taking in drinkable water not only for the people that are there the pets that you may own even though that it was only one resident it could have been more and my feeling is that when it comes to that part of that that the people are actually purchasing that the water that the city that we deliver that there should be absolutely zero risk involved I think I've demonstrated my commitment to public health and the variety of decisions that I've made often on the conservative side with regard to beach closures which regard to the boil waters that we have issued as I've said I am trying to make an improvement on this and I believe that may well everything that I've known about her that any of these steps that she's gonna she's gonna fight them off that's just that from my perspective is that I don't worry things to the city council often and if I feel that they're important enough to do it and I see that back there especially when it's based on the community I would hope that you would never hold me against and down low for not bringing it to your attention I did bring the HR's attention first I did not bring it to city council I'd let them do the process on their investigation but they were told me being done and as soon as the investigation was done I thought that I'd then bring it to your attention I would not be hopeful that they would but I ended up having to feel that the necessary needs to do so everything that is at this will be corrected with a little bit more discussion I think that the protocols that Chief and Megan are putting in place are all going to be positive I just need that the ownership which Peggan has mentioned multiple times on the possibility of disciplinary action that I do commend her on on actually putting that out so I really believe it's been a productive day all the way around so long day of meeting with HR committee and hear yourself but I really believe that when we worked out it's just that we just had to get to this point in order to do so I mean from my perspective I would you know and this is a process that you're undertaking and at the end of that process or where you think it's the end I'd love for somebody to come back and give us an update on that I don't personally think that the two has the jurisdiction around the human resources aspects of this the personnel aspects of it there is a committee and I that was discussed today that committee can do that so I hear a commitment by Megan I hear a commitment by Damian to have this constant improvement and I think that makes coming here really important because we all have so much to do and adding another thing is just a pain in the neck and you know that's the tendency is to not want to do it so but I think this is really important and I appreciate the effort that everybody has put in and I really appreciate that we have gotten to like air this so that you know the pressure is on to consistently do the right thing yeah I'm also glad that there's there are changes that are there's accountability everybody seems to be on a path toward you know restored relationships seems like it's damaged some there's like they mentioned that there's a personal factor that's going on that has kind of damaged that relationship and that's also happening to be repaired in a different way through grievance processes with the CDA so that's that's where the HRC and like Megan as the chief mentioned there's a lot that I can't even discuss about that side of it other than there is a conflict that's going on there and that will be up for at least the local and management to get that resolved which I believe that we're on a good path to do that as well it's been a long path I agree I'd love to see what ultimately comes out of this zero risk out here yes we all work very hard every day to deliver safe drinking water we are managing a plant that's 40 years old that has not been capital renovated before Megan and I started here we weren't relining water mains quarter of our water mains across the city of beyond 100 years old I want this public to know we work day in and day out 12 hour to keep this going and frankly Megan and I one of our outreaches to Damien and the crew they was communicating directly with us if there's a concern people know I am not a scary person I am here I live in this town I drink the water if there's concern I'm here and available Megan's here and available we provide our cell phones the entire team reach out we're here to help we're always together trying to improve our city and together working together we will improve the city yeah it would have been fine like I said there's that conflicting issue and the person that there didn't feel that he was being heard so he figured that he would address it through HR the person that was there I said directly to him in a totally different direction and there's a personnel in contact where that individual should have been on that job that day but I was on site and so I don't know why Jesse I would have liked for him to have said something because when I was there they were discussing shutting it down and leaving it that was that was up to the Mr. Bobbler I mean he's I know but what I'm saying he knows and he should have known better he should have known as soon as that he had told Jesse down that it was his responsibility to either call back to Rob Boling, Chapin whoever it be to put out that notice and he neglected to do that and he should also be taking ownership of that as well in the future I would like him to tell me directly especially when I'm on site if he has serious concerns about something I would have liked to I understand that you're talking about the chain of command today and it's been broken but that has to be re-established because even at that when he's talking to them he doesn't want to jump the steps as well by either going to Chapin or you and giving the debt benefit or the doubt to the man that actually is on charge at that point in time so like I said that has to be correct to do that process and to make sure that that's taken care of that the chain of command it's functional and not broken Well, thank you both for coming tonight Does that complete your director's report? That does Are there any council members? No, I totally appreciate what Chapin said about his commitment and Megan's commitment to safety and health and safety of people of relative and I appreciate you I've seen all of that so that's my councillor's report I think it's important to us to acknowledge I agree I agree with that Well, they've done a wonderful job in the infrastructure since I've been there I mean the whole re-inviment that was out here that was with Chapin and Ms. Borobat it's just that the complacency factor has to be fixed on the safety side Well, thank you for coming tonight You're welcome Our next meeting which will be a new-tune committee is scheduled for the 23rd of April Is this room available? I believe so It's five o'clock a good time for you to start We can talk about if we form the committee what a good meeting time we also may be at that But for the month of April we will be keeping our fourth Tuesday with the Regiment Your room, Ms. Borobat Thank you With that, I will adjourn us This may have been one of his two meetings three hours but it was our last one we promised staff and everybody else who hung in there with us like pipe hung in with us Rob Who else? Okay That's it Good night everybody