 of transformational leadership over transactional leadership and the ADC suspends 17 state chairman and appoints new BOT chairman. Well this is plus politics. I am Mary Anifor. Transformational leadership is a kind of leadership that inspires positive changes and those who follow transformational leaders and they are enthusiastic, generally energetic and passionate. Not only are these leaders involved in the process, they are also focused on helping every member of the team succeed as well and and by extension they're also helping the larger society. A leader of the national consultative front and political economist Patutomi had said that Nigerians need leaders and individuals who are restructured. He alluded that government does not have the best interest of Nigerians at heart. He said that youths still remain a pivot tool in rejigging the system and making democracy work and joining us live is Professor Patutomi. He's the national leader. He's the leader I beg your pardon of national consultative front. It's so good to have you join us Professor. Thank you. It's a great pleasure to be able to join you. Great. Let's start by looking at the tragic tree of leadership in Nigeria from when we started in 1999 what we call a democracy up until today 2022 as we get ready for 2023. How well have we done in terms of picking our leaders and the kind of leadership that we've gotten over the years? I made that to say extremely poorly. I mean sometimes we have tried hard to go the wrong way and have gotten lucky and other times we just haven't made the effort. And I'll explain what I said earlier and when I talk about President Umaru Musahira in a second. But I think it's important to understand what the difference is between transactional leadership and transforming or transformational leaders. One of the most defining conversations on this subject matter was offered by renowned American political scientists when I lived in the U.S. in the 1970s he was president of the American political science association. And his name is McGregor Barnes. James McGregor Barnes. His enormous volume on leadership, the book, that was simply leadership and makes quite an effort to you know do a typology of leaders and leadership. And he points to the fact that you can be a leader in terms of sets of transactions. You do this for me. I do that for you. And we work it out. Classic Nigerian leadership is transactional. You help me steal ballot boxes. I become governor. I help you get contracts. I help you. And this is really at the heart of my argument that it is impossible and I want to be quoted impossible almost for either the PDP or the APC to make Nigeria make progress that is sustainable. Why is this? The nature of the structure of the parties is such that inevitably it's about transactional leadership. Now in structural economics there is a paradigm that is called the structure conduct performance paradigm. The structure of an industry, for example, determines how the players in industry competes. That way they compete, which becomes culture, inevitably determines how they succeed, what kinds of success they enjoy. Now, in the case of transforming leaders, it is based on a certain vision and a certain value system that makes the people focus on this greater good, which the people might not even see, even though it's in their own best interest, but it might not be able to have the knowledge and the sheer force of capacity to see tomorrow to understand that it is in their interest. And this is why the ultimate transformation in examples of American study is Abraham Lincoln, I mean, derided, all kinds of things, sees a tomorrow in which the abolition of slavery and the rights of all peoples are elevated, leads the country down a path that Muslims did not believe in, but because he was a man who had shown commitment to the interest of the people, they were willing to suspend their disbelief in this thing that he's asking for. And to follow him down a path they did not quite understand. And when tomorrow came, the results became of value to all of them. That is what transforming leadership is about. If you look at Nigerian politics, especially since 1999, as different, significantly different from the founding fathers and what drove their interest in politics, you will see like the Awola wars, the Okparas, are transforming leaders. And you can see the impact in the free education that the Awola family introduced, or the competitive communalism that drove the response of the Sadawna and Okpara to some of his moves. So completely different from now where the transactions are such that, you know, it's me, myself and I. So what will you do for me? What will I do for you? By the end of it, you have reached a point where you're not even sure why government exists. It's just about what are these guys who have traded off one thing or the other? What are they looking for? What are they asking for? And if I may just dare to give the ultimate, for me personally, the ultimate example. I became quite friendly with General Muammar Dubuhari, not because of anything he had done in Nigeria, but because of a meeting in Jakarta in Indonesia in 1970, 1980, what was it? Anyway, 87. I was, most of my academic work in the later part of the 80s, Southeast Asia. In the process, I became very friendly with a group of economists in Indonesia, generally referred to as the Bekli Mafia. There were a group of economists dedicated at the University of California, Bekli, who became the leading light that showed the way that enables Suhato, President Suhato of Indonesia, to give Indonesia the kind of economy that we should have had that we couldn't get because of the kind of leaders we have had. Now, one of these economists used to be oil minister of Indonesia. His name was Muhammad Sadli, Professor Muhammad Sadli. And as part of my research, I spent a bit of time in the company of Professor Sadli. When I visited him in 1997, it was 1997, I saw that this man, a former oil minister of Indonesia, was living in a bungalow. He didn't even have air conditioning. He had big fans rotating, nice location on a hill in Jakarta. And I said to him, it's not normal for oil ministers, former oil ministers to live this modestly. And he said to me, but in your country, there's this young country of minister, when I was oil minister, his name was Muhammad Mubuwari. You know, he was a very ascetic guy and very expressing. And, you know, I mean, somebody like that should, so that gave me an interest in Mubuwari as a man who would be a fighter for rights, to reduce corruption and all of that. And I guess, General Mubuwari, yes. But here we are almost eight years. I'm so sorry, Professor Stockwell, are you? Here we are, eight years. That's the point I'm trying to make. Yeah. Here we are. Eight years down the line. And this man turns out to lead a government which, in my opinion, is just an opinion, is probably the most corrupt in Nigerian history. How does that happen? How does a man with that kind of background end up with what is probably the most corrupt government in Nigerian history? It's simple. It's the structure of the APC, the structure of the PDP, which leads to those kinds of transactions that inevitably leads a person like Wari to appoint the kind of people who are appointed to his cabinet. Who are the most corrupt people that I know? So you're telling me that Nigeria cannot make progress with those? So you're telling me, Professor, that no matter how well-intentioned a person is, no matter how much interest of the people he has or she has at heart and wants to lead this country, he or she would be unable to do that because of the APC and the PDP, no matter what platform the person runs on? If there are any kind of transactions that define the APC and the PDP, the outcome can only be negative. I can assure you of that. It's the outcome that gives you the kind of ministers you have today. So we need to find transforming leaders who recognize that a big vision is more important than those transactions that get them power. We need to be able to mobilize the people against those small interests that often lead people into power. And this is where we are today in Nigeria's history. Leaders who have put themselves through a grind that see tomorrow so clearly that they recognize that this machine cannot bring that tomorrow about. And in many ways, just by the hand of God, that's probably what God Peter would be out of that place because he finally saw that he couldn't make a transforming push within the structure of the PDP. And this is why what we try to do with the NCF in building a big tent, a coalition of civil society organizations, political parties that see Nigeria's future such that self-sacrificing people focused on the common good of all, state where they're going, and create a collegial approach through which the common good trumps power. I'm so sorry. Let me come in there. I like how you put that. But just as we said earlier on, this Peter B is one man and he's running on one political party who of course many have, many even in the opposition have said does not have a structure per se, one that could be compared to the big political parties. But he's one person. He wins election for instance. But then of course there is majority minority, national assembly, the upper house, the lower house. And of course we know how these things play out. It's a game of numbers. Again, I want to ask that question I asked earlier on. One person, a transformational leader trying to trump and bring about a change of, you know, as against the transactional kind of leadership. How does he thrive in that very chaotic circumstance? Yeah, Peter B is not one transformational leader. There is a college of actors and he just represents the face of it. Those actors include people like Guzman Bugadje, Itwai Godano, myself of course, and several others who have the meeting and talking about a transforming college of leaders that will then back one candidate to ensure that we get a new way of governing in Nigeria. This is what is happening. Peter B is just a vehicle to get Nigeria traveling the right direction. So that is possible only when thank God the people take ownership and recognize that what has been happening to them is not going to get them anywhere. And this is what I think has happened in Nigeria. The people have taken ownership. Don't forget that this whole thing is driven by the frustration of Nigerian businessmen, the anger of Nigeria's youth, the failure to see the progress Nigeria should make, take any indicator. Nigeria is at the bottom, literally at the bottom of just any indicator you can think. Why compared to our peers that don't have the factual endowments that we have, that don't have the human capital we have, it's clearly a leadership challenge. And the center of the problem is that it's leadership that is focused on transaction tradeoffs. You don't vote for me. I come and scrap the road that is in your neighborhood. You do this. You do that. Everything becomes me, myself, and I. Whereas the transforming leader doesn't even think of today, the things of the future. And what I see happening in Nigeria today, these transactional leaders are dividing Nigeria as much as they can. They are creating fake news. They are trying to dig up some stuff all kinds of sentiments that prevent Nigeria from going anywhere, just so they can have power. I think that until we can get people who think long-term and the greater good of all, we're going to find that we're going to be mud in these transactions that ultimately hold us back. What we need is a group of people, not just one person who are thinking transformation. And if they find a champion, that champion, whether it's Peter Obie or Itwai Godalo or whoever, that person then provides the arrowhead from which the country is taken back by the people. This is what Nigeria requires as it goes towards 2023. Great. Let me paint another scenario here. I'm sure that, of course, you live in this country, so you understand all the things that are happening. You've heard about the 40 billion pipeline surveillance allocation or rather contract to Tom Polo. Now, you've also heard about the all theft situation where the NNPCs are unable to account for how much crude or petrol that we're able to produce and how much we consume as a country. There's also that claim that there's a cartel that runs the oil sector. Mr. President, as you know, is the petroleum minister who sits at the helm of affairs, but there's a lot of corruption, not just in the oil and gas sector, but almost all across the country. So again, one hero, great idea, but there are so many cartels, might not just be that in the oil and gas sector. Can one man kick out all of these people? Because again, this is something that has grown over the years. How easy would it be for one transformational leader? Again, these guys are not going to let down easy, whoever they are. So how does one person, one hero in your words break the cycle? Especially for those who are not also politicians who are just, like you said, a college of people who want transformation. But what about the ones who are actively in politics? Let me tell you, in 2015, when General Buhari won the election, checks were measured. Corruption literally came to stop in Abuja. Everybody was scared of this guy coming. When, within a few months, they saw that his guys were as corrupt as anybody, they began to do what they were doing, and everything changed, and it got worse and worse and worse. The power of the example of the leader cannot be toyed with. If there's corruption anywhere, go and check the leader, his age, his family, if they are standing on the right. Anybody who goes your wrong way knows there's consequence. One of my favorite examples, of course, is Singapore. Lee Kuan Yew, you knew that Iblee caught you doing the wrong thing. No matter how close to him you were, you would go down. It was so bad that a minister who was very close to him was discussing a deal. He hadn't even negotiated the deal. He heard that he leaked, and he couldn't bear the possibility that Lee would hear about it. He committed suicide, he killed himself, just because he couldn't deal with the shame that Lee Kuan Yew would find out that he was publishing a deal. Another minister, he committed a real crime, but he went on vacation, the ticket was bought by a company, he promised them anything, no deal. He lost his job, he went to jail. This is what people were expecting to happen in 2015 when Buhari was elected. When it didn't happen, when his people began to put their fingers in every tail, people just dismissed the government as, oh, it's just another one. He couldn't do that because of the transactions nature of the politics that he had to trade off this with that to win the election. So leadership example is number one in stopping any wrong. And we were nearly there in 2015 until he couldn't exercise the leadership of his people, and Nigeria just went down the drain. Again, let's talk about, let's bring it down to the people. I'm also going to come to the judiciary and law enforcement, but let's talk about the people. The mindset, changing the mindset of people, whether it be for political reasons or for social reasons, can be, you know, is not walking the pack. And again, you started the conversation by, you know, talking about how we have seen or understood leadership from a transactional place. Now we're talking about people getting their PBCs. There's been that movement, but it's not enough, of course. What happens at the polling units? How do we drive that mindset of change? And you know what I mean by change? I'm not talking about the change that we were sold in 2015. I'm talking about the change that we need to change Nigeria. How do we drive that mindset? Because again, that can be a hard not to crack. So in your, I mean, in your way, how do we go about it so that we can have people not asking? Because we've seen it, even though some elections will be said there to be free and fair, we've seen people ask for monies at polling units because they think that that's the share of the national cake. Yes, because they are experiencing that they've seen nothing else and they are hungry. They've been made poor. The first thing is one leadership example. The second thing is ensuring that we create a society where people can have a good life. They can earn enough to be content to us of that kind of handout. So and then the third thing is education, education and education. The biggest thing Nigeria needs today is education. The thing that has been denied Nigeria the most is education. You saw the UNESCO numbers from last week. There are now 20 million out of school children in Nigeria. We have the worst, worst record in education in the world. It's no surprise that we are the poverty capital of the world. It's a surprise. It's typical Nigerian transactional politician actually has an investment stake in the poverty of Nigerian people because the poorer the people are, the easier it is to use nothing to entice them to sell their votes. And so all of the people who think clearly Nigeria must get together to prevent this from continue to happen. Massive voter education. This is part of the duty of INEC, which they are feeling at. Massive voter education. Can we really blame INEC alone because political parties also have a duty in educating, in voter education, but we don't see that happening. What we see mostly is of course the jaw-drawing and the mudslinging as opposed to educating the people they want to vote for them. But absolutely the reason that some of us have been traveling around talking about these things and we have that obligation to educate the people. And believe me, if you just take the miles of video of my talking on these matters, you will see how political leaders ought to act to be able to change mindsets and get a better tomorrow for everybody. Finally, let's talk about law enforcement and the judiciary. Many would say, I mean there's that comment saying that the judiciary is the last hope for the common man, but I don't know if we can still say that is the case today because it seems a lot of people have lost faith in our judicial system, maybe due to the slow pace of justice or many other things. But then also law enforcement on the other hand, we saw what happened in October of 2020 when Nigerians came out to talk about bad policing, et cetera, et cetera. How do we also get all of these hands on deck because we cannot have transformation if the judicial officers and law enforcement are not working hand in hand? Absolutely correct. As an institution, the rule of law, the judiciary, are critical to human progress. Institutions really shape how society makes progress in addition to values, your culture. I was joking a few weeks ago, I don't know why the bar association invited me back because I've hammered at the bar association for years about how they are failing in their duty to ensure the rule of law by acting in civil society, as civil society to ensure a better judicial system, to ensure the policing is better done. And so, I had one of two questions at the legal state, but I asked them enough that they started a group of lawyers, started from the call life, lawyers interested in free and fair elections. But it's civil society that has to keep organizing, and it buys a very critical part of it. I'd like to say that the immediate past president, Uluak Pata, did tremendous work in that regard. And I hope that his successor continues down that track. And look at Pakistan. When the Chief Justice of Pakistan was removed, the circumstances are almost similar to how our own Chief Justice was removed a few years ago. The lawyers went on the streets, they marched on the streets until that was reversed. So we need to really change the way that we approach these things so that Nigeria may make sustainable progress. Well, Professor Patutomi is the leader of National Consultative Front. Always a pleasure to have you and also have these kinds of conversations with you. Thank you, my pleasure. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break. When we get back, we'll be talking about, of course, the crisis within the ADC, and we'll be joined by the Chairman for Lagos. Stay with us.