 Yeah, this is the open global mind weekly call on Thursday, March 30th, 2023. And Pete and I were just talking about this, the singularity, or possibilities of a singularity or whatever else. But if you want to say it like all mankind has been bootstrapping towards some kind of singularity then you lose, you lose the notion that the singularity might be a special moment. Well, the way Vinci said it is he said it's an exponential curve right so. Even the technology of 100 years ago to somebody from 2000 years ago would be like unimaginable right and was part of the unwrap. Yeah, make sense. Make sense. And so are we there. My point is we've been there for a couple thousand years, yeah, and it's going to get more weird and faster, but it's, you know, is so if my showing my great grandparents, you know, zoom, it'd be like, you know, what. How does that work. Yeah, I mean how would I extrapolate from zoom to the next thing I don't understand this thing it doesn't make sense. But also isn't the singularity that that moment, after which we don't really know what things are like and how things necessarily worker will be and in that sense have we not yet passed through it, or what do you It's, well it's not a moment it's, it's a curve, it's an exponential curve, but isn't there a transition at some point in that curve where things feel different and strange. It's been feeling that way for, you know, a couple hundred years. Pete and I are talking about the singularity and I was, I was proposing that we may be slipping through the singularity now. And Pete was like, we've been doing that for 10s of thousands of years. Thousands at least. Okay. What you mean by singularity. So, it actually means a couple different things, which is one of the things you have to watch out for but as science fiction author, Verna Vinci said, at some point, technological advances are going to be coming fast enough that we won't know it's coming next, we won't be able to imagine what's coming next. And, and so most. So, so then really, you know, within five or 10 years after that people are kind of expanded it to mean different things. Oh, the singularity is when there's artificial general intelligence. Oh, the singularity is when artificial intelligence, general intelligence has taken over from humans, you know, they, they kind of slice and dice in different ways. Vinci was a little bit more general. So I'm going to step on the varieties of singularity the one I've sort of focused on most is the technological singularity there could also be a biological singularity and probably other visions that I haven't sort of done a compare and contrast. That would be a really nice prompt for chat GPT actually see. I'm just illustrating that we may like this this may be a piece of what's up it's like like our separation from the machines or dependencies on it all those good things are kind of hot on the burner these days. And it's exciting. So we are this this week is a check in week. Process check in on OGM last week we had an exciting call about Pete's proposal to create to write a book or something like what I think of it as Andy Rooney and Judy Garland saying let's put on a show, which may be a terrible reference for me. Sorry, Mickey Rooney, ever, ever with those old movies, you know, that's embarrassing. He was a person that came to mind. Luckily, I didn't say. What's your name, Mara. The new actress. And we now know Canada's an impressionist. Exactly. Rooney Mara sorry Rooney Mara. It's not not a first name is her last name. She was in the social network, Carol, etc, etc. Hey kids let's put on 60 minutes. Well that sounds like an exciting evening. So, and so I think how this is evolving is that we are repurposing the Monday since doing calls to be this book like project which where and Pete correct me as I as I misrepresent this where the book is just the surface representation of something that is familiar to normal from millions to muggles as I like to call them the book is a gateway drug to get people interested and connected into the thing that is online that is much more interesting and is woven into conversations like this one is woven into resources is woven into everything that that you could possibly want. So we're, we're sort of busy thinking about what to call this thing and organizing that if you'd like to join those conversations join us on Mondays at 1030 am in this same zoom. And we're having those conversations Pete anything to add to that. Chat in since doing the since doing channel as well. And on matter most, there's the sense doing channel which we will turn to this, this purpose as well so if you're curious go monitor that channel and will probably rename the channel to whatever we rename the project. Any questions on that. Before I turn over to sense to check in. When did you say when did you say that meeting was Mondays at 1030 Pacific. Standing call. Yeah. And we'll usually run through noon so 90 minutes. Thanks Pete. So, we are on check in schedule today so let me go through the rules of the SOGM check in protocol, which, and one thing we've not been doing all that well. And the more free form discussion part of the call during the SOGM protocol is distinguishing between the check in portion of the call, and the more free form discussion part of the call. And the idea here is that during the check in place that the check in portion, we go relatively briskly so that everybody has a chance to put something in the room. We can aim high. Doug's question is what. What is the question. Doug's question is what does this represent it so let me go to the Doug protocol. The focusing question Doug recommends is what is on your mind that is worthy of serious conversation so we could elevate our question for check ins that way or we could just check in with what is up with you that's OGM like an OGM related. I'm open for whatever people would like here. So raise your raise your electronic zoom hand when you are moved to jump in and check in. Before you speak, take a pause and take a pause of whatever length you want. The silence helps us process. Don't lower your zoom hand until after you've spoken so that you kind of stay in place for us, and maybe unmute yourself to indicate that you, you know that you're ready to pause and you're just pausing just having that moment of silence as it goes. And then after after we finish the check in round, we will then just participate in sort of more a more normal way but continue the pausing the pausing is really nice. Don't expect me to pass the mic. So if you're next in the hand cue please step in the way I just described. And another, another variable we have here. Is whether or not to use the chat during check ins. I like the chat as a way for us to sort of share resources do whatever as the check ins happen as things come up. So I would vote for letting the chat be free form during the check in round, and certainly for the rest of the call, but I'm open to a group vote or or like if a lot of people would rather. I think of, I think of making the chat off limits as a way of kind of sanctifying the conversation or creating more attention, which is, as I said, a variable for us to tweak in terms of what we do so. If you feel strongly that we should turn off the chat during the call please raise your hand right now. Okay, so let's let's let the chat go during the check in go once during the check in round so once you've checked in step aside. I will ping at some point later for who you know who's missing or who's not gone or who's going to pass, and then I'll shift us into conversational mode as we go. So please put at the link to my brain for the different check in protocols which I was like, we should organize this a little bit so there we are. And so done you have your hand up I will step to the sidelines and mute myself and see who wants to check in and go from here. Thank you. So one of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately is our tendency to make new relationships. When they start up to do that, moving into a new community we look for people to be connected to the problem for humanity is that the more relationships we create the more we're weaving a tight space that makes it hard to move. Until, ultimately, we have so filled up the human space with ideas the idea space that it's not possible to do anything new. Maybe that's human fate that our ability to reproduce and to be curious and to make relationships is going to lock us in eventually to total immobility intellectually and the thought. When I heard Doug say that I chose to check in, because what was actually on my mind is I was going yesterday. Pete and I discussed maybe having a little group where we played with chat GPT. And I bring that up is because what I've been doing is finding many ways in different groups to connect with just specific people within those groups that are interested in those specific things. And in that way I find that there's always an intermingling of different people in any group I go to I usually find one or two people I know, and there's a flow. I think that were connected. Usually, well, for me, I have a certain value that I'm always looking for. So I always find that specific connection with other people I suppose it would be different things. But I think there is a way to do what Doug is talking about is is needed without siloing. And it requires really showing up as who you are so that not only how you behave is how you behave everywhere, but what you're truly interested in and passionate about is coming from a real place, not that you're stretching to be something different than who you are, because that's only going to last up until a certain point. I hope that's understandable. But anyway, if you're interested in having conversations with chat GPT in a group of playing around, we're looking to maybe do that and see how it works out. I'm reminded of one of my inspirations long ago, a friend, a colleague of mine noticed I was feeling blue after a breakup, and he said, hey, the, the misses and the kids and I are going to Quaker meeting and I'm like wait, what, what's that. And I attended Wilton meeting in Connecticut for a couple of years before moving into New York City. And once I got used to it, which happened very quickly just acclimated in, you know, it was like a duck in water. I would arrive a little bit early, like not I wouldn't be there before the greeter and there's a rotating role as the greeter who welcomes people and notices new people and gives them a little pamphlet to explain the process kind of thing. And I would sit down across the room and Quaker meetings generally are not decorated with any religious paraphernalia of any kind. Our meeting room had a beautiful big fireplace and in appropriate weather. The first person in or one person would get in pretty early and stoke the fire and so we would have a crackling fire through the whole thing and it would be beautiful outside there were nice windows. And I would then watch as the members of the meeting came in. And it was sort of like it was a well, that's very funny I was about to say it was like a religious experience, but wait, I was in service. Okay, so it was a religious experience. But it was beautiful and there was one, one fellow who would always come with his son and they would take the same bench and his son would sort of lie down on the bench and put his head in his dad's lap. And they would sit there. And this meeting's practice was that the first 15 minutes kids could be in. And then at the 15 minute mark there'd be a quiet moment where one one adult would get up and the kids would all get up and sort of file out and go go play a couple rooms down for their version of whatever Sunday school might be and it was just beautiful it was a lovely, lovely thing I missed the routine of it. And then I was recently going through time capsules and old documents and things like that and I found. I worked for new science associates when I was in Connecticut so this this is kind of contemporary to that time. I found a report I wrote in 1988. So I'm not the youngest fellow around, but called neural networks prospects for commercial use. And I was leafing through it going. Okay, I, you know, I don't remember doing all these things but I did know this was sort of my whole report and I created a model for the space. And what the ventures were going to be like hardware software biological mathematical, etc, etc. And it's kind of cool to see that thing because the deep learning and now large language models that we're talking about are basically further generations of this kind of technology that's really eating our lives in some interesting way right now. And then last thing by way of check in. I'm putting together a presentation I'd like to give a lot called confessions of a cyborg, because I realized that 25 years worth of feeding this brain software. I have an external mind that not a lot of humans have, and the experience of doing so is different and interesting and I want to share that out. I think that I am complete for check in. Yeah, I also wanted to pick up on where duck was going, but maybe on a more optimistic note. I'm a great fan of spiral dynamics, because it is a communications tool that allows you to connect across a cross environments that you may not normally intuitively connect with. And I find such a challenge to convey to my, my friends in the regenerative movement is to say a club or regenerate America or any number of groups that I that I have attached myself to. A, a type of knowledge missing, you know that you need to have to operationalize what they're trying to do so USDA for example right now just set aside $57 million and has a competition national competition going with coops that are supposed to set up local food hubs. And that's all sounds great in principle except that after spending unbelievable amounts of money over the last 20 years and food hubs, they haven't achieved any kind of scale yet and there are good reasons for that. And really, I sat down with Miss Jean, yesterday, and we had a conversation where I explained, you know why the steps to operationalize this food movement. I'm missing, you know, has some significant gaps so I'm sharing the conversation here. I forwarded it to a group I've been working with and their farmers and then the farmer came back saying yes that's, I mean he confirmed the conversation as being relevant to what he's working on. So the, the, we are working here in this theoretical world, you know where we discuss concepts and we discuss high level outcomes desirable outcomes. But it doesn't, there's no translation, how that is actually supposed to work. So when in this conversation. I'm getting like super technical down to the ground level of talking with someone in an operational environment, you know, an assistant manager, a frontline worker. You know, in order to convey the to make this challenge you had more practical and tangible. Then I had another conversation yesterday with a friend of mine, who isn't a quite red, I would quite blue, quite blue category. And what you would unkindly refer to maybe as a low information individual but we have been friends for a long time super good guy, super smart, you know, worked as an airline technician in the military. He was really very smart on some levels but then installed in this right wing network, where, you know, he has ideas about what is happening around him that that just, that it just really startling. He got the conversation into his world. And, and refer to people who are not placed with a high IQ or with even a sufficient IQ to manage a credit card or to, to accept right the bell curve and that on every at every step of the right side of the bell curve. There is a corresponding person on the left side, you know, struggling with very basic challenges that life brings, maybe can't even sign a credit card, maybe, maybe can't negotiate a contract constantly gets taken advantage of and then you look at how our society is organized to be so predatory to people who were just not able to process what is going to happen to them, and then connect this with the conversation we had about indigenous wisdom and living, you know, in harmony with him, our society but also with the world around us. And in the New Testament, it's blessed other poor, right to be attitudes that that should govern our relationship to people less fortunate. And I would argue that in the indigenous cultures that is the same principle, you know, to to make sure that everyone is is taken care of. So when I talk with my friend who is very upset about all the money that's being given to people who don't have a job and who don't work right. I mean, there are people who are incapable of working in a factory environment because factories that they are a tech, you have to be able to process, you know, some pretty complex things that in order to function there. So what are your options when, you know, you barely know how to read maybe you're even a literate, you know, when you so when you look at this 1015% of the American population of any population who are who are so in need of help. Are we really a society that has any kind of empathy built into the way it functions and interacts at that societal level. I mean, have you really taken care of those less fortunate where they're supposed to go what are they supposed to do. And then you talk about another discuss within biblical concepts or cultural concepts of what other societies have been doing and are doing to create a harmonious way for everyone to live together. And he really responded to that it made sense, you know, because it it it captured this world I put him into his work environment and saying, there are some people who obviously you couldn't have work for you because they just wouldn't be able to they just couldn't get it right. So then where are these people going what are we doing with them what's happening to them how do you keep them safe. And how do you keep them from harming the everything around them. So anyway, those were the two conversations yesterday. That encourage what I found encouraging in the way of reaching in to two people who have such a hard time, following what's going on around them and we're getting so frustrated and so angry, because they just don't see any help coming at them. Last night, I flew back to Colorado from Costa Rica, where I'd been for the last month. And it was a really interesting time to I felt it was a very interesting time to experience a degree of simplicity, kind of forced simplicity that I had never, I have I have not experienced before. I was staying in the guanacaste province in an area called Los Pargos, which is, I was a I was a bike ride away from where Todd Hoskins and Pia Hoskins were staying right living. So I got to spend some time with them, but it was the small community as if you had read the newsletter that Todd had sent from Costa Rica hello from Costa Rica he made the point that the roads aren't. They're not finished there. And the he reflected on the wisdom of not having paved finished roads. And that really stayed with me throughout the trip and it was it felt like an interesting time to be there as it seems like we are all collectively waiting with bated breath to to see what happens next and none of us really seem to have a pulse on what but that's going to look like. I was really present with this it feels like a choice that I have but it also kind of sounds to me like an expression of you know the micro versus macro. This is choice of kind of a turning point do I turn towards simplicity. I intentionally could I would it look like for me to divest myself of all of the things that I busy myself with I'm sitting in an apartment right now with like, you know, 20 beautiful plant friends, you know, and I have to spend a lot of time watering and taking care of them and I was in the bathroom last night and I was just struck by how many things are in the bathroom how many things are in the apartment after staying in this, you know, place for a month where there was. There are not many things and there weren't many ways to get more things, right. And I think I'm in reflection around that right now as my husband came down to check it out for a few days because I said hey like, this could be a really cool place to live and he agrees and so that's that's a question in the air for us right now would we want to leave what we know. In part to pursue a space, a place to live where there is just more simplicity and I was really struck by how healthy I felt in my time there especially after having been so deeply connected with it just the gorgeous raw nature. That was everywhere there. So yeah I'm in I'm in that right now I'm curious about this what to me feels like an opportunity kind of a conscious choice here as we are presented with more and more ways to make our lives. I think some okay like more simple but I think really the more appropriate word there might be more convenient, which can disguise itself as simplicity and I don't think they're necessarily the same thing. Or do I turn away from convenience towards something that is closer to simplicity. How is my body, how does my mind, how does my whole system respond to those directions. It feels like a scary thing to be considering. So I'm in that I'm in the exploration between these two, they feel like it's a very stark contrast between this this world I've been in for the last 30 days and the world I like the world of the space I'm coming back to. And just noticing and observing what's changing what's changed in me in this trip and how it feels to come back to a world or a world a space of living space a community where things are busy. And there's a lot more going on there are many, many, many more choices to make on a given day because there's so many more options. It's been interesting. That's where I'm that's what I'm reflecting on right now. I am complete morning everybody. And thanks for that Patty. What you spoke about the life of well my things connected for me with with what Doug said at the opening about being overwhelmed in relationships and I don't feel. I don't have any concern about the idea space being over full. But I do feel about I do feel the thing space being over full in the life that I live. And of course, I share my life in my home with another person so the boundaries of too much things are one of the right things is at all that is very complicated game to sort out. But what struck me in particular with Doug share was. I feel both the richness of many relationships and really inadequate at feeding and nurturing and living in those relationships enough and just like, you know, lots of little contact with lots of people in zoom space. And the busyness of life and not enough time to spend hanging with friends, walking with friends, sitting with friends and so forth. Jerry, when you spoke at the Quaker meeting, I was reminded of the practice of some ancient Jewish mystics to spend an hour or two before meditation, preparing for meditation. I have a wild idea to contemplate. Time capsule I've been I've been in time capsule to but I'm not going to go there what's working me these days can to your question is the multiple legislative coups underway in the United States and around the world. Democracy being used to dismantle democracy. And I've long felt that part of the right wing strategy at least in this country is is is a deer in the headlight strategy is to throw stuff at us that is so insane and incredible that we just kind of look bug eyed and immobilized. And I guess that's the way of saying that I don't. As we watch, you know, not only things like the gun legislation issue and the abortion issue but the dismantling of checks and balances and giving tiny majorities the ability to take out court systems. So it doesn't seem that we know much about what to do about that except wait for the next election and hopefully win it. So that's working me a lot this week. Don I think you can now see the screen but I'm not sure john asked me earlier to cue him when he was up. So you are is your turn. Great. Thank you Jerry and hello to everyone. Sorry, I haven't been able to be here often as I would like. So this is going to sound going to start sounding like it's technical but it isn't. There is a thing called the D web, or the decentralized web. If you know this context, you can think of it as Web three without corporations without huge corporations and with very little, if any cryptocurrency. Big features of Web three. That's what meta is pursuing. And those are deliberately designed exclusions of the D web. Now the D web is kind of like in scale. It's like the quicker meeting it's a very small group of people but you know, the second week, the third week of June, probably going to be 400 people from around the world mostly from here of course, showing Camp Navarro, Northern California to plan how to do a D web, you know, and there's lots of stuff, there's lots of version, a lot of this technical, but a good third, at least a quarter, at least a quarter of that activity will be about governance and all the different ways in which we might greater democratize our ways of coming together using the best features of technology and limiting some of the time to limit anyway some of the more dangerous features that we've proposed to and understand. So it's, it's a worthy effort, I don't really have a sense that it's going to succeed I certainly hope it does I'm going to put my energy into it. I'm helping to organize a successor to or let's say an integration of the live conversation. Practices such as we have here with the digital support for those practices in a decentralized fashion that is a pretty ambitious project, but the people that you've heard of the term hollow chain those are some of the people that are involved, and they really want to do the digital successor to the kinds of conversational practices that we might advocate. Alright, so that's something I'm working on. Feel free to contact me. If you'd like more information, I will look forward to drawing on the great resources of this group to help in that design. And I guess, I guess I have spoken. Let's see. We haven't checked in yet, please consider doing so. Meanwhile, we can stare at the crackling fire. Well, I don't have a big check in today, or, or maybe I have a check in that's too big for today. But, but I was just wondering into the space that Jerry left just now. I wonder someday if we'll have check ins where instead of I speak, I will ask somebody else a question. Instead. There's general approval of your suggestion. Just pop it and emphasize how much I love that idea. I am complete. Everybody, what's on my mind that's worthy of serious conversation is where are we and how do we know. There's an awful lot of bad news out there a lot of stuff that's you know making headlines about how terrible things are. There's an awful lot of stuff out there that's going on that I think is really great that doesn't make the headlines that we don't hear about. I've seen two pieces in the last few months about the off told tale that democracy is failing but it's actually holding pretty steady according to the empirical evidence. It's not that it's assured but it's it's not as bad as what we're being told so you know I'm aware that what's her name. Hannah. I'm sure about the origins of totalitarianism and how they would flood the idea space with bullshit. So no one would trust anything, because if no one trusts anything, then you can, you can take step in and take control and be the strong man and say I'm in control. And so I'm really just curious of, you know, and I don't know that I'm still trying to fix that for myself, how do I maintain balance and equilibrium in a space where there's all of this bullshit floating around. And I don't know what's trustworthy and what's not. And my answer is I focus on what I know in my life, the people that I know like you folks here and other communities I'm part of who are really working hard to make the world a better place, and I put my attention there and I put my time and my effort there. And I find myself reading more poetry and less news, which has actually been a tremendously helpful thing for me over the years, I do that pretty regularly, like, I get saturated with news to start to feel Oh my God, you know this freaking world is just falling apart. And so I switched to poetry and it doesn't change the world makes me feel better. So I don't know I'm just this this is on my mind of, how do we know where we are and what are we paying attention to and and how are we allowing the external the news of the external world to influence us either positive influence our moods to be either positive or negative to be hopeful and rational and imaginative and ambitious, and curious, or to feel like we're constricted and falling apart and need to be defensive. I'm aware that William Carlos Williams who was an amazing poet said once, it's difficult to get the news from poetry yet, and I there, men die every day for lack of what is found there. So, just putting in a little boost for more poetry less news. So Pete, as provocative as ever. I like your idea, as did Patty I believe about asking questions of others in the group. I think it was Stacy who a while ago had said hey no one read my stuff. That was months and months ago. One thing that I had noticed over the course of several years with the group was that we would jump on and talk about us. Here's what I'm doing. Reach out if you're interested. Here's what I'm doing. Reach out if you're interested. And I used to write that this was the collections of biggest brains that I knew. And it's interesting. I think that maybe I'm missing this that there, there's less. Hey, you know what I'm interested in that thing you just said, and not because I have something to say about it. But because I'm actually interested in learning more about whatever it was that you said, and not a simple hey plus one on that. But more like hey, could you go deeper on that could you explain what you meant, could you help me understand that a little better and in the short space that we have. And with all of the important and personal things that we're working on. I think it can be hard to say you know what I want to give you more time. I want to actually not think about the thing I want to tell you, but have you explained the thing that you wanted to tell us and we decided that we wanted to talk about our thing more. So, I don't know it's just an interesting thing I'm loving the space, the pause. It is something I have only found in this community. I don't find it in a personal conversation. I don't find it in any other meeting call where there's an intentional pause to allow the thought to close to allow the connections to be made in our own brain. One of the things that shows up for me and those little pauses is what I think Pete might be referring to which is that question, that question to say, you know, that's really interesting now that I'm pausing and thinking about what can just said, or about what Patty just said or about what Doug just said. I'm actually thinking you know I have a question about that. I'd like to know more about it. The pause can be a time to change subjects but can also be a time to engage with the subject. So, I felt like that was worth at least thinking out loud on my own about so I appreciate the space to do that. Rick here, Rick your mic is open, and we have a couple people who haven't checked in yet, including Rick. And I'm going to hold this open for a second in case any of you would like to do so if not we will shift into conversation. Just a brief minute and this has been an insane month for me my dad's been in and out of the hospital three times. Currently in the rehab center for the second time but he's doing pretty well but we've been going through some things about renovating the house in case we need to sell. We've been around for months but and then a little bit of a pause today and then we starting with refinishing the hardwood floors tomorrow. Yeah, so I'm feeling some relief and stuff. So I think there's a way out of some of the quandary I bet quandaries I've been in so. I may have to leave it anytime. Pause and stop video. Thank you Carl. Check in a little. I've, I've not been here as much of late. And have also, I've also been in dealing. It always sounds like such a funny, funny term to me. But engaging in some family stuff, some parent care, some home. And dealing with homes and stuff and and home care for my mother and thinking about mortality and and accumulation and what matters. And it, it's a sort of. Sorry, I'm a little, a little inarticulate moment but just this, the meaning of things, the meaning we attached to things, the meaning we attached to places, the substance of memories and in the relationship of all that to digital world and it and it comes back around to the subject call that we had a couple of weeks ago, three weeks ago, four weeks I don't remember. And and thinking about all that we are in our physical space with physical stuff. And all that we are in our digital space with our digital stuff. And the challenges of, of putting those things into some kind of harmony and some kind of shared benefit for people, which is a subject I guess I come back to and some of these calls that artifacts and archiving stuff. Anyway, that's my, that's my check in. So thanks. Thanks everybody. I think it's good moment to shift and go wherever we're inspired to go. So, if you're free to jump in catch my eye you can use the hand or just I can use the hand gesture and I will play traffic control for the conversation again. I'd like to hear a little more from Doug about what he meant, because I think he's, he made it concise, which was appreciated. But I think some of the explanation was lost on me, at least it. Do you want unpack. Which you said. I'll try and keep it short. If you imagine 100 people standing fairly close together at a football field. Any one of them can move through the group with a little bit of resistance met along the way if the group is fairly tight. Now imagine that each person of the hundred reaches out and holds on to the arm of the person next to them. And it's impossible to move. Just can't. And I'm thinking that that with it. All of our human activity. Tends to create new relationships which become part of the momentum of not changing, because we hold on to the relationships. The idea is that our intellectual activity slowly weaves a web of interconnectedness that makes it very hard to think outside of, and eventually harder to think at all, at which point society is done. And maybe I mean my weird thought is that that is built into human nature. Given our randomness and our curiosity, we're going to weave ourselves into immobility. So the perverse extreme of the advice you just gave is to not enter any relationships or create any of those ties that bind so to speak because they're too constricting. I don't think that's what you mean. Well, in a way it is and I'm saying that the sweet place for human life might be in things like the Enlightenment or what the Greeks did in Athens, when things felt open, and the things are closing in on us now. It's interesting that you think that things felt more open and Athens or the Enlightenment than they did now I imagine those people felt this traumatized by the chains that they were going through as we do today who knows I, I don't know but, but that's interesting and does anybody anybody else with thoughts on Doug's comment otherwise I'll go back to the queue, or Scott if you want to acquire more. Okay good so the people in the queue. Go ahead. I do I didn't know if the handbrake was Q or responding to Doug. I'll go ahead and then I'll go to Patty. Yeah. So, Doug, I'm, I'm, I've provoked by your observation and troubled by it and wonder what if relationships are where everything comes from. And then constraining relationships means that nothing new happens nothing new arises. I mean, you know, the ideas I have that I think are mine or not. They're expressed through me out of a lifetime of relationships and interaction and reading and thinking and you know, and with other people. And I feel more enriched by these relationships than constrained I don't have any sense of, you know, among the worlds that we're hanging out in the of the of the constraint on ideas. I mean, there are people out there who want to, you know, very directly and effectively constrain the generation of new ideas but I'm not sensing that comes from the richness of interaction. So, back over to you. Can you say more. Let me add just one comment. If you're part of a startup. In the next months, you're going to want to do things that keep that startup going and thriving. Sure. Because of that, you're less available for new initiatives around climate change. So you'd be part of the momentum that keeps things from changing. And since everybody more or less is doing that all the time, the network of relationships gets tighter and tighter. That's not a function of relationships that's a function of the priorities that I choose to focus on I mean if my focus is climate change I only I'm only effective on that in relationships. Whether it's you know whether it's a climate tech startup or a legislative initiative or, you know, getting people in the streets would have you it's. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm more baffled than I was when you started. Doug's favorite point to group think, which is a thing that happens to people who are too tightly correlated whose incentive systems. Forbid them from stepping out of the norms of their thinking, etc, etc. So I can see that that that happens a whole lot in our lives and. Sure, but that's not, that's not, but that's not if that's not a function of relationships that's a kind of relationship. It's a kind of relationships don't dictate relationships don't dictate group think. Exactly Patty, but sometimes we have group think and sometimes we have creative ferment. I mean, look at, look at this group here. Here there, there is a certain amount of group think, but it's not tight and constraining. And, and the commonalities that we share are a fertile ground for generative thinking as well. And, you know, would we want to not have more people join this conversation? I don't think so. I mean, there's, you know, there's a limit beyond which becomes unwieldy and wants to bud. But I'm feeling more the richness of kind of relationship rather than the constraint and I don't mean to debate it, but I really wanted to hear Doug, how you, how you came to this and I appreciate it and I, and I remain baffled. I'm going to go ahead. Thanks for your patience. Yeah, yeah. Super interesting. Doug I felt really confronted by by that invitation and, and then I started engaging with the something I'm observing in in my own life it's it is a group of people I know very well loved ones who are building a it's it's my language is like a familial compound it's it's a lot of my relatives are my Lebanese family side of things are building have bought a large swath of land and are building houses in this land and it's it's this it's going to be this neighborhood of family members who have lived in and this isn't going to acknowledge it I don't mean this to sound judgmental but but the you know one of the realities of that is that they have lived in the same place for in the same around the same people for their entire lives and they're going to continue to build family there are some of the kids who are having kids who are going to be raised in this, you know, family neighborhood. And I was really intrigued by this. This isn't your language Doug but it sounded like this invitation to consider this possible evolutionary gridlock that might happen as Jerry was suggesting kind of in these places where echo chambers and group thing can become a little more easily. And I'm not going to write but I'm a part of and so I, I would think what I come back to, and I hated something like a broken record bringing this back in but like I just I think of you know what is the difference between what are the differences between a group like the one we're in right now and other spaces and places where that evolutionary gridlock might present itself a little more clearly and they can't help it feel that the I don't want to keep calling an emotional connection but the tools and the skills we have to connect right so I think that something I witness in that cohort of community that family I have is that they're there means of connecting is through the news right and talking about the news and I don't often witness more vulnerable or emotionally based connection happening in that cohort right so I kind of wonder how much does the ability to communicate the skills and the tools we have or do not have to connect impact what it is that you are suggesting and the possibility of this restriction in relationship rather than growth in relationship with others, and I feel complete with that. I'm. I'm noting that it's really easy to be comfortable in groups like we're comfortable in this group and that one of the things Stacy does as her method of operating met a modus operandi is to make sure she's talking to people who are not like her and who don't believe the she believes that she can try to bridge those gaps and figure out what's going on and, and I think that that reaching of the bubble that were each that we each construct that feels cozy and comfortable and safe is important as well, like really important, and maybe I don't know if he's Doug of the binding that you're that you're describing is that is the is the fact that it binds us inward, instead of reaching outward. But I'm not sure I don't want to put words in your mouth. Doug then Ken. There's an anthropocentric sort of center share Doug that I wonder whether it's possible to transcend out of we exist as a species. And if, if I can see that we're not separate and apart and isolated from the rest of the planet and the biome and everything else on it. Part of the, the implication in your share is that there's a constraint limitation by virtue of aggregating around a commonality, a point of focus or commonality by in between a group of people. In there is choice individual choice and agency. The thing that that can that I convert your, your share into is is the living part of it, which is is the dynamic the energetic flows. I am between individuals and projects with other projects and all of the rest are they flowing or are they not. Is it living. Or is it not. And if things are living and they're thriving and they're growing in service to the good and service to healing and solving problems and all the rest, then you know, that's a good thing. And if it's not why isn't and density as a fat and a sort of de facto attribute of a group of people consolidating more strongly. I'm not sure is a factor in whether things are flowing in and out of that. Whatever that center of gravity is that there are other things afoot in terms of what stops flow and what what enables it or restores it from a generative standpoint. So I just throw that out into the mix because elementally where most most of the things I touch and experience are stuck in the mental body. And they're not fully integrated and flowing across all of the elements that reality is comprised of. So from it, you know, the underlying inquiry for me is something, you know, purpose driven or not doesn't mean everything has to be but if it is or is it flowing toward fulfilling its purpose like generating something manifesting something contributing value. And yeah, that was my share. And unfortunately I got to go but I love this session. Thanks. Mr home of the floors here's whenever you want. I think we're probably all old enough to remember those wooden boxes that had a handle on to size and there was a maze on top with holes and a steel marble and you had to navigate, you know, and I feel like that's my life today. Like I'm the ground is constantly tilting there's these holes and I have to like screw around to one side and get on that, you know, and and I don't know why this this this image came to me when when Doug was speaking about relationships with people and and so I'm just wondering how to there are relationships that are amazingly helpful for getting around those holes and and sticking, you know, getting through that, but I think we need to learn how to coordinate better to tilt the floor to help us move so that we don't fall into those holes, and one of the holes is when people start to hold too tightly. And others when they when they detach and they just lose interest and don't care and wander off and I just this this image came to me I wanted to share it because it feels so real of life today is ground is constantly shifting. And I look for ways to keep myself in balance. So I'm going to go back to the lab with balance boards. Yeah, good to me. Thank you. If you Google that you can buy some on Etsy. Just saying. Really interesting. April wrote a book called flux eight superpowers for thriving and be constant change back in 2021. It seems to be a timely topic. And one of the things is how do you maintain a sense of the whatever while adapting and while sort of surfing the waves of change or whatever metaphor you want to apply. And one of the things that she presents is a concept out of yoga called the Drishti, which is basically a point to focus on outside of yourself when you're holding difficult like one legged poses. And it is as you sort of use soft gaze to pick a spot but that spot helps ground you in your balance. And so metaphorically, what sorts of things in our days or lives or associations, can we point to and refer to or use as those balance and sometimes that's just your daily ritual I mean, I work when I work for Esther, like she swims every, she swims every morning of her life, or if she possibly can one of the hardest things her assistant had to do was source a pool in the form of Russia after the former Soviet Union had become former, or in Slovenia or Slovakia or name your name your former Soviet satellite, sometimes involving braving a guard or whatever else, but that was but that was her rooting thing, and she would be at her desk early in the morning having swollen hour. And I could see easily how that was very much a rooting thing for her. And I think we each need to figure out for our place in the world and what we're trying to get done, how to find those things because at the start of this call I was talking to Pete about my experiences with chat tbt and one of the questions I asked him early on as the chat tbt thing we're on is like, are you having boundary issues. Because, as I asked these questions and think about my relationship to the intelligence that seems to be in the cloud now, I don't know sometimes where I end and it starts and that's a little scary. So that it is so some of this is about, what are you standing on some of this is about where do you, where do you end and the next thing begin, I don't know, there's a lot of cool stuff afoot right now. Gil asks in the chat Drishti sometimes soft focus can be more focusing than maniacal focus. Absolutely. And sometimes soft eyes or soft focus let you see the things you couldn't see before. An example here might be and this this. When you have if you have a Christmas tree and you're putting lights on it. The best way to figure out if the lights are doing okay is to squint. Because when you squint you actually see whether your lights are kind of balanced or not and you can move them around to make them work. Maybe a silly example but but, but there's we have sort of lots of work around like that in our lives but but soft focus sometimes is the way to see things. And another example out of martial arts which Jerry and I share the practice is that if somebody grabs you somebody grabs you by the wrist and holds tight if you focus on the grab, you're immobilized. And if you let go of the focus on the grab and focus on the whole body or the whole relationship of the two of you, you can move and do something with it. And we, it's very easy for us to get really focused on the thing that's right in front of us and challenging us, and, you know, not be able to see and not be able to move. One of the I key is my sport and one of the important notions and I key to is the sense of connection between okay and not gay. And those the two roles and I key to is always a partner thing it's not. It's not usually people performing some kind of routine it's usually partners working together, and that sense of connection, and the sense of deep connectedness like, like, there's a grip but it's not an iron grip. The way I try to sort of coach it is I want to be able to feel your, your far foot from your wrist. I want to feel my way through all of your body so that you're so that it's not just your hand grabbing my wrist but rather we are connected in some in some way and it's very much about partnership and the closer you get to that the better your it's very, it's really interesting. Sometimes I go to class and I come out feeling like a beginner, and I don't mean that in beginners mind in a good way I mean like, holy hell have I not learned anything. Wow. That, that's how I felt the first day on the mat after I earned my black belt was like, what the hell is going on here. No idea. The question motivated my thinking about the tightening of our community to the point where we can't move is I feel like humanity does not have the skills right now to think of how to organize itself to deal with climate change. So I'm interested in things that we've missed along the way that could possibly help out. And if there is a tendency for everything to get tight is there in that some hint at how to deal with climate change. I don't see it yet but that's what's driving my thinking and pushing me to the boundaries of things I've thought before. And one thing that I hear a bunch is like nobody knows the answer to x, like on whatever. And what I noticed from historic patterns is that often a whole bunch of people were yelling loudly before the event happened and they were right in retrospect, it's just that nobody was listening to them. I think this is a little bit like the library of Babylon like borders is short story where somewhere in there is the index to the whole library so there's a there's a gang of people who are actually running down all the halls looking for the index because when you get the index you control the world. But, but the idea that there are people who have a grasp on how to deal with climate change and have really good advice, we're just not all collimated or congruent in agreeing with them in some way that works at a very large level. But I think, but I think, I think it's not that nobody knows that this is just my own take on it's not that nobody knows is that we're not agreed on who might know and what to do about it together and that for sure we're in lock up there. But for every, for every, for every crisis or whatever that's come up, whether it's the dot com fiasco, the Bitcoin meltdown the, you know what what have you. I think it's short by Michael Lewis is a really good way to see this. There were, you know, six people he found who had slightly different explanations for how this was clearly a bubble, and then invested against it and profited from it at great personal cost, because they would never want to replicate the experience because everybody hated them during the whole process. Sorry, that was like five tensions at once Stacy than Pete. Yeah, um, this is a huge topic but I just want to touch upon the part Doug where you said about being able to organize because I think that's the real problem beyond climate change and I think it's something that might be touching upon in society 2045, which is dealing with force because I think part of that problem has to do with the gatekeeper, the gatekeepers and people who are already in power, holding on to that power and I'm talking about even within a group a small group. So I'm not talking about some overlords. I'm just talking about the way people in general and their daily. The way they make decisions for other people, and don't necessarily let people move and mingle in a way that would be best. So it could be something as simple as somebody in a workplace, not letting other people know what their job is because they remain valuable, that kind of a thing. So I think there's something to be said in how people organize, but there is something behind human behavior that impacts that. And I think that force. And that filter which again much bigger topic for now. But that's just the direction I want to throw a dart in. I like Doug's provocation and it doesn't, and without disagreeing, I have to say it doesn't, it doesn't feel it doesn't ring, doesn't harmonize quite for me, and maybe maybe I'm just not harmonic to it. And, and Doug I like the way you said, I feel like humanity doesn't have the skills right now to think of how to organize itself to deal with climate change, and kind of, you know, observationally that's definitely true. But I think, I think it attributes to humanity something that we attribute to individual humans. So, you know, as a human, and as a set of humans group together to do things. I know that I have agency decide what, what to do, and with a small set of humans, I can kind of get a group. Maybe not group saying, but a group thought of, hey, we should do this or we should do that and we can do it together we can decide to do it together. I think we are fooled by that observation from our, our head and our brain in our eyes into thinking that's the way humanity works. And I think that humanity at scale is an emergent property of, you know, millions, hundreds of, and thousands and millions and billions of people bumping into each other. And, and the, the emergence properties there of are like, it's not that humanity organized itself that way, or crucially that it could organize itself, or part of humanity could organize itself to confront that emergent super, super structure super being it's, it's more complicated than that I think. So it doesn't feel to me like we have relationship gridlock. And I think it feels to me like what you're observing is a real thing, but it's the, the physics, the multi body physics problem of millions of people in millions of subgroups, bumping into each other in ways that are really hard to understand. And Jerry, I like your, your example of the folks who bet against conventional wisdom. And even in that lesson, the lessons like those are kind of an inner rears in any chaotic situation. You can go back in an after action review and say, Hey, look, these six people knew what was happening. And I think really what happened is, they had, you know, for whatever reason, they were bucking conventional wisdom and were committed to do that to see it through even though it was really painful. So it's easy for us to attribute kind of thought and foresight to that when it's probably just kind of, you know, somebody was going to be crazy enough to, to be the winners in it. I, the, I'm always, I, I try to be a tiny bit as smart as Caleb, Caleb is kind of a seesaw character he's he's got a lot of a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. But, but I really like the way he said, what he said about black swans. You know, it's, it's, it's something that, like, or the, the, I guess the thing he says and fold by randomness, you know, it's really easy for people to attribute structure and intent and things like that from back to my point from kind of an individual or small group perspective. And the world is just more complicated and more chaotic than you can imagine. And it's so complicated and chaotic that you can't imagine it and then you start to try to shape it into something that does make sense right. So, I worry that I worry when we think we can organize to confront climate change, and certainly, some of us, different groups of us can organize to confront climate change. They're not the same as humanity confronting climate change, and the groups that self organized in smaller, smaller ways to do that are going to have a really difficult time, maybe an impossible time, confronting all of the chaos and, and emergence in the larger sphere of humanity itself. Thanks. Thanks, Pete. I will reveal my preference for my non surprising preference for narrative here by saying that sometimes the narratives that are basically flimsy impressionistic framings of the situation. can cause people to join a movement or not join a movement or believe something or not believe something. And it can be as dysfunctional as Q and on or as functional as regenerative, the regenerative economy. And that those framings really are important because I've said before my one of my amateur beliefs about history is that history is a battle a fight over the joystick and the cockpit of humanity over which narratives dominate the majority of humans outside. So I think that, that, unfortunately, I may be overloading them, but I think these narratives are, are, are huge, and play a really strong role, and are mixed in with the fact that we are illiterate enumerate. Don't understand large numbers don't understand exponential change. Countless, countless ways in which we're, we're foolable and are busy fooling ourselves. But a piece of that is, is the, the, the freight of narratives. Kim sorry, over to you. So I get interested in Einstein's famous quote about can't solve problems at this level of thinking that created them. He never said that it's actually from a New York Times editorial and I changed one word. I just spot the word that I changed. Our world faces a crisis, as yet unperceived by those possessing the power to make great decisions for good or evil. The unleashed power of the Anthropocene has changed everything, save our models of thinking and thus we drift towards unparalleled catastrophe. We need to let people know that a new type of thinking is essential. If humankind is to survive and moved towards higher levels. That's from 1946, May 25 1946. The word I changed was Adam to Anthropocene. Yes, got that. So, but Einstein didn't actually, he was trying to raise $200,000 to start a program that would train people to think differently, but I don't know that how much he, he, how much progress he made on that. I think we're up against a massive group think dominated by an economic paradigm dominated by neoliberal economics that says we don't have the money to save the world to deal with climate change and cost too much, you know, and that's trying to solve the problem of climate change and the exact same materials that created it it's never going to work. So I threw the Tyson Yonka Porter quote in there that he talks about solutions to complex issues like climate change require multiple diverse minds. And, you know, I come back as a facilitator to how do you get enough representation in the room from enough diverse peoples, where you can start to create new ways of coping with climate change new ways of seeing it. What's going on in lots of places in the world. I don't think it's hooked up into a coherent movement yet, but I feel like it's getting close. You know, look at what Greta Thunberg one girl sitting down outside her school has sparked a worldwide movement there is massive fomentation of it, and it's hard to know the state of it but, you know, when I look at the big picture of humanity, I see if everyone woke up tomorrow fully enlightened. There's enough suffering in process already that it would continue for many, many decades if not so 100 years. So I don't expect to see this thing shift to radically too quickly. But I trust in evolution. I really don't think that whatever brought human beings into existence is going to. We don't have the ability to take ourselves out of the picture. But I think we're ultimately going to wake up and find out that we have some level of collective intelligence that is kicking in at the survival level of we have to work together now. We've got to become a succession species rather than a pioneer species we have to learn to cooperate with each other and work within the boundaries of the Petrie edition which we find ourselves. And I trust that I have a deep, deep trust in that. I have also a deep, deep trust that there's going to be enormous suffering along the way. And it's really hard to hold those two but that's what I have to do. Otherwise, I go into a despair cycle and I just can't be there. So, thank you. So given the time I'm not going to let the silence swallowed up too much. I'm going to give an example. That's sort of to the side and that in Patty's description of her family, building houses in a community. That's a project they're going to want to make succeed and they will fight against things that are trying to prevent it. The problem is that that building activity creates CO2 and cutting the trees for the wood, mining the metals for the copper. Lots of things, the transportation of materials, transportation of workers. The fact that we're in a contradiction there between what we want and what we want. Climate change solutions and building our communities is part of the trap that we're in that we're going to have to think our way out of. Thanks Doug. And then we're getting near the end of our session. Scott, thanks for what you just posted to the chat. And Stacy, you wanted to help us wrap this session with something so I'll go to you if that's wrapping up this conversation but Gil floors yours. I'll be brief two things. Ken what you call neoliberalism I call capitalism with a hyphen. And the people who are saying we can't afford to solve this are saying, I don't want you to use my money to solve your problem, which is actually our problem but they, you know, somehow exempt themselves from that. And I don't expect that suffering ends in 10 years or hundreds a year suffering is, is an endless part of the human experience. And as the body of Satva vow or the body cheat, I guess says, I vow to put an end to it anyway, but we live in that contradiction. And I'll leave it there and stay see to you. Yes, I want to read something I wrote 25 years ago. I usually don't because my writing so simple but Joanne Pete's wife has encouraged me and it kind of fits the beginning part of this call. It's called thank you. Thank you. Thank you to the one who held the door for me the other day. Thank you to the driver who waved me on ahead of him to the woman who complimented me on my hair. To the one who stared momentary glance expressing to me that she had acknowledged my thought. Thank you to the one who let the door drop in my face reminding me how often I forget about others. Thank you to the driver who cut me off helping me remember how often I rushed through life thoughtlessly to the woman who stared at my hair, and then turned away allowing me to feel the judgment of another. And to the one who never lifted her eyes to meet mine for even a moment. I know how it feels not to trust. I am grateful to all of you for you have all served me well. I am here but to learn about myself for only when I know who I am. Can I love myself or who I am. And only when I love myself. Can I truly love you. And that is what I most want to do. Only love is real only love will survive. Please help me to remember this to know that my worst enemies are on a soul level, my truest friends. It is a painful task to hurt one you love, but we are here to learn and a teacher is needed for every lesson. I remember that I am a student, and life has been created to guide me towards self knowledge. It was my desire to enter the school. Together we have all made this decision to learn graduation is upon us, and the success of our class as a whole will impact our achievement. We are a team. When one heals, we all heal, support each other, encourage each other, and tolerate our different ways of approaching a challenge. We are each unique and we each bring a gift to the total essence of who we are. We are one you and I. We are love. We are God. Nothing else is real. Thank you. I got to run. See you next week. Thanks everybody. Thank you Stacy. That was awesome. You reminded me of one of my favorite poems which I will put a link to in the chat. It's long so it's not, it's not a read here but I just adore this poem. It's called catalog of unabashed gratitude by Ross gay. Stacy, can you share a source to what you read? I wrote that. I wrote it 20 years ago. Yeah. Awesome. Can you share that then? I would have to type it. I would have. Yes, I will. I will type some someday somehow no pressure. I have to tell you, Gil, it's really interesting because I have my writing in a folder of just scraps. And it's like, I don't have a lot of writing, but the ones I have just seem to be all I need. So, thank you for asking. I would love to send it to you. Don't, don't feel a need to type it just, you know, take a photo of it and send that or whatever's easy. Can I, can I comment on that Gil? I definitely agree with you. Just take a photo of it. And I'll give you a specific reason why I read recently about the change where we're not teaching cursive anymore. And you can feel how you want to feel about that. But one result from that that I had not anticipated was that we've lost signatures. Yeah. So young people that no longer have a signature that is theirs, that evolves from their own unique cursive writing, and any teacher who teaches cursive knows that by the end of the first year of teaching cursive they can identify every person's paper, simply by their handwriting. And so I would say that your handwriting on that if it was handwritten. I typed it. I'll continue the thought is, is, is a valuable part of it. Because it is, it is that unique part that's, that's you. And I feel like this loss of signature is a loss of something that we haven't parallels other losses that are similar, that loss of of individuality that I think is so important. If I may I'll add to that, because it's not just the signature, it's the, it's the body mind. I write in at least five different modes. I write, you know, by hand. I type on a keyboard. I type with my thumbs. I write on a whiteboard. And I dictate while walking. And I find that my thinking and my voice are really different. In each of those modes because of how my body is engaged in it. So, not just the signature, I think there's something very important there that maybe is being lost. Yeah, thank you. It's came up in a conversation yesterday. And women have definitely noticed that we need to write and move and have that arm movement. Yeah. Very interesting. Very good. Thank you everybody. Thank you all. See you next time. Thank you.