 Governor of Cross River State Ben Ayade defects to the ruling All Progressive Congress APC. What does this mean for the opposition party, the PDP, and the Attorney General of the Federation Justice Abubakar Malami states that the southern governors have no moral justification to call for restructuring. This is across politics and I am very uncomfortable. The governor of Cross River State Ben Ayade has formally defected to the ruling All Progressive Congress APC. Ayade announced his departure from the opposition People's Democratic Party PDP while hosting six APC governors who visited him in Calabar, the state capital. His defection comes barely six months after the abhorring state governor, David Umahi. Well, joining us have this conversation is the member representing Bekwara Obudu Obanliku Federal Constituency in Cross River State at the floor of the National Assembly in the House of Representatives. And of course we also have Baba Issa who is a legal practitioner joining us via telephone. Honourable Legault, it's good to have you join us. Good evening. Good evening. Thank you for joining us. So interestingly, every single person across the Federation is tweeting about the move of the governor of Cross River State from the PDP to the APC. A lot of people might say that they saw it coming, a lot of people pre-empted it, some other people took it as a shock. But you were there when the governor was declaring that he was moving to the APC. What do you think pre-empted this move by the governor? Do we have him? Okay, well let's just move away from the honourable, we'll try to get him back. We have joining us Baba Issa who is a legal practitioner. And a lot of people are asking questions as to this is the first time Baba Issa is sitting governor in Cross River State, which has always been known as People's Democratic Party State, who has decided to switch to the APC while he's still governor. Are there any legal implications to this? Well, I don't think there are any legal implications, so to speak. The only time the Constitution provides for a legal implication when a political office order is defecting is when a member of the National Assembly or a member of the House of Assembly, a legislator, so to speak, is defecting. So when the legislator is defecting, without a crisis in the party or a factionality of the party or without the party that elected him or brought him into the House being matched with another faction of the party, then the Constitution says the feat of such a legislation should be declared vacuumed. But in terms of a governor, there is no such accommodation in the Constitution? No, no, there's no such. I think the constitutional provision for freedom of association, association holds three. But I think, personally speaking, there's actually a higher obligation, a higher implication than just the legal or the constitutional one. If you ask the people to vote on the platform of a particular party, I think there's a high moral obligation on the side not to defect after you have gotten the people's mandate, after you have gotten the people's votes via a particular, particular political platform. So that's how I say it. I'm going to come back to you, Baba Isa. But we have back on the line Honourable Legoy Dagwo. Honourable, I asked a question earlier and I hope you heard me, but if you didn't, I'm going to ask again. This is the first time we're sitting in Governor, in Cross River State, a state that has always been a PDP state, is switching to the All Progressive Congress and he's done that while he's on the seat. And I ask, because you were in that room well, the Governor was speaking on his defection. What do you think was responsible for this move, because you are part of the people who have moved with the Governor from the PDP to the APC? I think Governor did today was a step-by-step. The Governor has always appealed to try the crisis in the party in Cross River State. The PDP in Cross River State had a series of crises. I would recall when with Congress' candidates from those Congresses emerged and suddenly at the National Defendants, this was made public. And the Governor said this was the east of the delegates, party, chairmen, world chairmen and the rest that emerged during the Congresses and that the party should look into it. In Cross River State, we've had a series of litigations. We've had factions in the party. The other faction went to court and it's been going on and on. And the Governor has appealed to the party that the way forward was to cancel Congresses and repeat and then get all the things on the table agreed. We have a small Congress so that we can have a united moving into 2023. But that has not happened. And then come to think of it, Cross River State is not a very rich state. We're one of the poorest states in the country. We cannot continue to stay in opposition and in opposition that is not going down well with us in terms of protecting our interests. So the Governor took a decision today to move to the ruling of Progressive Congress. And I think it's a step in the right direction. We'll continue to support this Governor's move and we'll continue to governize our people. Let's see how we can keep Cross River State back into the center. Let's see how we can support His Excellency, the President of Nigeria, Marma Dupuwari to end well. There's a lot of crisis in the country. It's not enough to sit down and criticize and complain. We can all go in there and see how we can make a difference and see how we can correct the ills that exist today. So I think today Cross River State has turned to ABC. There's a lot of deputations. There's a lot of celebration in Cross River. As I speak today, and we're looking forward to 2023. And it's my belief that 2023 will deliver Cross River State to do really more. I want to pick on some of the things that you mentioned as the reasons why you decided, or the Governor had decided to make this move. Other than the fact that you have had in fighting within the party and the Congresses according to you, the Governor had appealed that it be redone, but of course the party according to you did not do anything. But you said something about getting Cross River State to the center. And you also talked about not sitting on the fence to criticize, but it's time to work with the President. So are you telling me that the other parties, or other Governors who are Governors of PDP states, let's take for example states like River State, states like Bielsa, or states like Adult State, you're telling me that especially those kind of states that have PDP Governors are not working for the betterment of the states and the nation? Are they tearing down because they do not belong to the APC? Or you're telling me that the APC Governor now, well, Governor Yadeh, who is now an APC Governor, is able to serve Cross Riverians better because he's under the auspices of the APC, but he couldn't do that when he was a PDP Governor. Does the PDP tell the Governor how to govern? Or does the APC do that either? Well, I think that if you followed Governance in Cross River State, you would see that the Governor has indeed done his best. He's industrialized Cross River State, his impact on series of projects that need to be sustained. And with all the projects he's impact on, he needs support from the federal government. And again, Cross River State is a state that is blessed with a lot of capacity. And we all know that appointments in the national level, federal level are done based on party lines. We need to see how we can key our people in the center. We need to see how we can get our people properly appointed and positioned in the center. And I just say that APC has done more in the past six years in Cross River State than PDP did in 16 years in Cross River State. You would remember that it was under PDP Watch that we lost our 76 oil wells. You would remember that it was under PDP Watch that our roads went non-motorable across the length and breadth of the state. You would recall that it was under the Watch of PDP that we had any presence at the federal level in terms of appointments and the rest of it. But today, even though we're in a position, APC has been gracious to Cross River State in terms of appointments, in terms of infrastructure development, and in terms of financial assistance for a new of the loss of our oil wells. So it's only normal for the governor, having seen what had happened under PDP to take this kind of decision. And his decision simply is that let's come and work with the ruling party, let's support the ruling party and see how we can better a lot of Cross River. Enough of the infighting, enough of begging PDP to do what we thought they should have done a long time ago. And let's take a bold step and move into the ruling party. And I think it's the step in the right direction, like I said earlier. I want to go back to what the governor said. He talks about the oil wells that have been seeded long time ago, obviously not under this government. He talked about the fact that the character of the president is one of the reasons why he joined, decided to join the APC. I'd like to quote the governor directly. He said, and I quote, we all need as governors to recognize that it's not party that matters. It is character, it is honor, it is commitment to the vision of a great nation. So I want to break down all of these things for Professor Ben Ayade. Let's talk about the character of the governor. Let's talk about honor. Let's talk about his commitment to the people of Cross River State. There have been reports of serious insecurity for a state that used to be very touristic, a state that used to be a haven of sorts for people who were travelling from other parts of Nigeria. Now people really do not feel as safe as they used to. The stories that are coming from Cross River State have never been heard in time past. So really, has the governor done well as a governor? And all of these characteristics that he's quoting about other governors, does he have those characteristics? Well, I think the governor has done his best. I think the governor has done very, very well. There is no part of Nigeria today that is secure. And it's no fault of the governors. Now, is it any major fault of the president himself? It's work in progress. We need to get security rights. We need to add, and it's a whole different story for when we're about to go into security challenges. I believe that to curb security challenges in Nigeria, local governments need to strengthen and empower so that they can begin to check security challenges at that level. How has Governor Yadi empowered local governments? Because you're saying that the local governments need to be empowered to be able to deal with the issue of insecurity. How has the governor empowered local governments in Cross River State? Because if this is what you're saying will help us deal with insecurity, has he done that? Yeah. Recently, 100 million was released to each council chairman in Cross River State. And I think if every state governor did that, it would go a long way to strengthen. I've been chairman of council, and I know that security issues emanate at the level of the local governments. If every local government chairman were up to speed in tackling the security challenges at that local government, I don't think we'll have the kind of crisis security-wise that we have today in Nigeria. So that said, I believe that the security issues are not peculiar to only Cross River State. They are all over the country. It happened at the NSAS rallies. You're seeing how the spate of kidnapping, banditry, and crime are increased in Nigeria. So it's a general problem that all hands need to be on deck if we need to address this. And I try to advise that we don't politicize all of this. If we make it an ABC problem, you'll recall that even when PPP was in power, we had most of these challenges. It was a time where Abuja itself was not safe to have bombings in Ban X Plaza and some parts of Abuja. We're not talking about the federal capital territory here. We're talking about Cross River State. We're talking about the state in itself. We go into the issue. Sorry? We're not talking about the country in its entirety. Of course, there are pockets of violence and banditry is not necessarily in Cross River State. But of course, we're talking about the peculiarities of Cross River State, the insecurity, which most importantly is characterized by cultism, beheadings that are happening every single day. We've never really had any case of, you know, banditry or Boko Haram in Cross River. So, you know, throwing your net out all the way to the Good Lock Administration and the FCT. The FCT does have its own, you know, peculiarities. We're looking at the character of the governor here and his alliance with the APC. Again, you're telling me generally that, well, under the PDP there were issues. Yes, we all know that, but what is the governor doing? Because governors are number one chief securities in their states and the responsibility of keeping the lives of the people in those entities safe lies solely on the desk of the governor and not necessarily his alliances at the center. Am I wrong or am I right? You're a bit wrong there because you need support from the center to tackle security issues. But police is not a state police. It's a federal police. The army and every security operative belongs to the federal government. So you need the absolute cooperation of the center if you're able to tackle security issues adequately. And again here, you would recall that the governor set up an operation, I think it's an operation of Baku or something that has gone a long way to call the security challenges across the state. All I'm saying is that the governor is doing his best. He doesn't have all the answers and he's saying we should all come put hands together and see how we can move across the state forward. And I think, like I said earlier, the movement to replace these a step in the right direction to see how we can get adequate federal support to tackle all the challenges across the state is facing today. Interesting. Thank you very much, Honorable Lego. Just stay with us for a second. I think we have joining us on the phone, not just Baba Issa. We have Venash as he came now on the phone, am I right? Mr. Ike, thank you for joining us. Well, if you have been listening to the Honorable, he's been speaking and telling us the reasons why the government of cross-strait states has decided to move to join the APC. Now you obviously used to be in the APC and you came back to the PDP and now you are a member of the PDP, which is now the opposition officially in the state. I did talk about the reasons why the governor decided to move from the PDP to the APC and he talked about character. He talked about honor and he talked about commitment to move Nigeria forward as a country. But I'm asking, what about Cross River? What is going to happen to the people of Cross River state? I mean, the governor hasn't changed. It's just the party and the flag that has changed. Babaisa, maybe I'm going to throw this question to you. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you clearly. Please go ahead. No, the issue is definitely something. Nigeria can no longer be food. Cross River can no longer be food. When a politician jumps from one party to the other, it's just for his personal selfish reasons and political permutations. So the governor is not leaving PDP to APC because he wants to better the life of Cross Riverians. In fact, how is that going to be done in the first place? Is it that because he's in the APC now, the federal allocation to Cross River state is going to increase? Is it that the oil wells that were taken via a judicial process, are they going to be returned to the back door or am I Cross Riverian? I wish we do have those oil wells. We still have those oil wells, but we don't have them. So you can cite the lack of those oil wells or the fact that we don't have those oil wells as a reason why we are going to APC. How are we going to get them back? So security challenges. So what is going to happen now that you're in APC? Are you in debt to the president? Are you saying the president is sending more policemen to APC state or more soldiers to APC state? What have you done when you were in APC, when you were in PDP? What are you going to do differently now that you're in APC? This is a governor that for over a year refused to swear in a substantive case, George. This is a governor that allowed the judiciary for several pockets of time to stay without the chief judge. And all of us know the very key rule the judiciary plays in criminal justice administration. So what is it going to do differently? This is a governor, just like many other governors in this country, that has triangulated the judiciary at the legislature. They have refused to grant them autonomy. So what are you going to do differently in the APC? Or is it that when you are in PDP, they instructed you not to grant the judiciary and the legislature autonomy? These are interesting questions that you've raised, but I'm so sorry, but I want to cut you off quickly and bring Venetius Ikem in. He's been having problems joining us. Mr. Ikem, I'm sure that you've been listening to the conversation while you were trying to connect with us. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you now. Great. I need you to turn off your TV so you can hear me clearly. Yes, you must have heard everything that Mr. Idabo has said, and I want to hear your thoughts because now the PDP seems to be in a state of limbo because the whole leadership of the House of Assembly has been taken to the APC. Even the Honourable Member here representing Bakwara and Obanliku constituency has also moved to the APC. This has somewhat dented the party structure in the state, so where does this leave the PDP? Thank you, Mary-Anne, for having me. I'm sorry about the connection issues. I've had few snippets of the conversations between you and Ibarisa Issa and also Honourable Legault. First of all, let me say that let me comment on one of the issues Legault raised. He said definitely there's some celebration in Crossover too. That is very, very true. From Obubu to Bacassi, there has been celebration. But the celebration is, like so many people said to me, it's like when a batch had died. I think we lost it. People are celebrating the departure of the governor from the beginning to happen in the political history of this country. Having said that, we have eliminated several benefits including multiple appointments. I hope you have seen what I mean. Infrastructure developments, he said actually that we did not benefit when PDP was in government. We have been able to have them in this APC government. We thank Buwari and we thank the national government. So I don't know how that justifies the movement of the governor to APC at this point in time according to him to attract federal benefits. I think to a large extent, we can accept that in Nigeria today, benefits are not necessarily distributed in accordance with political leanings. In some situations, in rare situations, yes. But that is not the order. Maybe that's the exception once in a while. Having also said that, I think that they have been very economical with the truth. The reality, like he said, is that the governor, who happens to come from the same local government with me, happens to come from the next village with me, has done everything to truncate democracy in Kosovo. How do you mean? I'm purchasing that point. He has managed to personalize the entire state. I don't even want to call it governors. If you talk about land grabbing, he has grabbed most of the lands that he can lay his hands on. You can go around the state, including our own community. In fact, he is not locally a land grabber. You can talk about appointments. Ayadeh has appointed more than 5,000 people into government. Most of them have no responsibility, absolutely. They just bear the titles. In fact, he tells you that it's just for food on the table. It is not for them to do anything. And I think that is ridiculous. What he said, like he said, that is one of the poorest states. Thirdly, why did he wait till now to leave the party? I mean, to join the APC. If his issues are to join the national government. The reality is that he wants to rule like an emperor. The country is aware. I know most people are aware. Today, we are blessed with the social media that makes information very liberal across the globe. People know the kind of petitions to knowledge. The kind of petitions to absolute wisdom that Ayadeh has been displaying. Which have led the entire state almost to a courtesan. Nothing is happening except Ayadeh. The only thing happening is Ayadeh and his brother. So, yes, again. So, yes, again. I'm sorry to speak over you. Yet again, Ayadeh, the governor has happened and he's all over the news. The papers are carrying it. That's the story for today. He's moved to the APC. Where does this leave the PDP in the state? The party, like I said before, PDP is in celebration mode. We want Ayadeh to leave for quite some time. It has not been of any benefit at all to the PDP. It is common knowledge within the party, within both parties. That even in the larger elections, Ayadeh both fully supported the opposition. He tells you, even in party meetings, he tells you both fully that he's more APC in Abuja than those who pretend to be APC in crossover state. And so for him, it's been about personal benefits, personal aggrandizement, personal promotions like what you are saying today. It gives him a turn on to be in the media, even if it's for the wrong reasons. He claims that he has industrialized crossover state. Let me put that in parenthesis. Can somebody please do a proper audit of how many people Ayadeh has employed in his so-called industrialization? He would tell you he has open 30 or more industries in crossover state. Please let somebody do a check. If Ayadeh has up to 200 people legitimately employed in a combination of all those companies, let him call me out. The truth is that Ayadeh is interested in importing those factories. He's interested in the brother Frank Ayadeh building the factories. What's the contrast to him? Or he pretends to be doing them through direct labor using fronts. At the end of the day, once they finish construction and installation, those things are locked up. None of them is working. Nothing is working in crossover state. So I don't know what they mean by those. The country has been kept at, I don't know, some kind of high falutin pretensions about a superhighway for six years. Suddenly. And a deep sea port. Suddenly that has disappeared from our budget. After budgeting billions, hundreds of billions for the projects, nothing. Not one kilometer of road has been constructed, but hundreds of billions have been sank into those projects making this impact. Improving the state was that he found it. And today he tells you about going to the center to import crossover state. Like you said, states are sub-regional governments. If states can run their own affairs, gain fully. Nobody says you must align with federal government to have benefits. For instance, the recent bill of statistics, the recent statistic released by the bill of statistics, it was very clear, crossover is amongst one of the highest states with unemployment statistics. We recorded 43% unemployment. And here they pretend that he's employing thousands and thousands and thousands of people in every industry. Let him comment and tell us. Let's see where those youths, these young men and women are employed. The truth is that crossover has been put on a long run, a long jump. Okay. Nothing has happened. Okay. Basically, I didn't know when to accept to go and protect himself and the expectation that APC central government will protect him from what? I want to say that, while I was speaking with the honorable, he did say that the states, the governor has done his best in the states and he has done well. And I'm guessing that this best includes the economy, includes the security apparatus because he did mention, he pointed out that there's been this operation, which I've seen vehicles on the road. But then I remember on the same show, I had a governor's aid on the show and I had a journalist in the state where there were back to back robberies happening in the state and people were feeling unsafe. The NCDC at some point said they found beheaded bodies where the police in the state at that time said they didn't see anybody. And there have been all kinds of things. So I'm trying to understand what you're saying, if it's reality. NCDC, I beg your pardon, not NCDC. So I'm trying to understand what's fact and what's fiction because you're saying the state has become more impoverished than the governor found it. But then honorable, Lagoid Idaqbo here is telling me that the governor has done his best and he's about to do more now that he's aligned with the party at the center. Honorable Lagoid Idaqbo, do you care to respond to what Mr. Venasius has been saying? I try not to politicize everything. It's not everything that is politics. It's easy to criticize Governor Ben Ayadeh. It's easy to say he's faltered in ABCD area. It's easy to make all sorts of allocations, even though you don't have proof of them just for political reasons. But the truth be told is that Governor Ben Ayadeh is not a saint. He's not performed any miracle in cross river state. But I think that he's trying. We should remember that cross river state is one of the poorest states in the country. They have one of the least allocations. And today he has bought about three aircraft, Kali Air. So this is the first time this is happening in cross river state. Venasius Ikem cannot in good conscience claim that the governor has not done anything right. Yes, there are challenges. Yes, there are issues. Yes, the governor is trying but he hasn't gotten everything perfect. But for us and myself, I believe that as a well-meaning cross riverian I should support the little efforts of the governor. I should rather be in the kitchen with the governor, seeing how we can better the lot of cross river state. And at the end of the day, I don't know whether I can interject at some... Let's just let him land so that you can come in so we can have a smooth conversation if you don't mind. At the end of the day, posterity will judge some of us right. We won't talk about the background of certain yardsticks. At inauguration, the governor set a certain standard for himself. I may not be able to put precisely his words. He brought what he called signature projects. One of them was the Super Highway. The second one was the Deep Sea Port. A couple of other projects followed thereafter. And he said that he will not seek second term unless people were going to judge him by his performance on those two projects. As we speak today, let me not go into frivolities. Let me speak with us. On the basis of that judgment, on that standard he set for himself. I want to ask on the bill, how well has it got not done? By an extra, by an extra or two to pretend that you are performing at the twilight of your administration. Can he respond? Close as far as I'm concerned. Because that has almost nothing to do with the welfare of the people. We talk about the economy of the state. Most businesses have relocated from cross-strait to a private. Why? Because of multiple taxation. And unfortunately, the government goes around the media to advertise that he is not taxing small businesses. But small businesses have crumbled. The few who could have survived have relocated. What is the yastik for Meshore Ayadeh? Even if we use his own... Let's allow the Honourable to respond to you. Let's allow the Honourable to respond to you because you've asked him two questions Can he respond? I would be the last person to play politics with the welfare of the people and I would advise you not to do so because it's not enough to criticise the government. I've asked you about the standards but the yastik is... Let me respond to your own measurement of achievement. How well has your approach... Okay gentlemen, let's let one person speak at a time so that we can have a great conversation. We're not communicating if it's just too many voices at the same time. Honourable, let's go ahead and then Mr. Venasius would respond. Venad, the two signature projects you're talking about, the Super Highway and the Deep Sea Port. Nobody pointed the Governor gone and asked him to make those commitments on the day he was inaugurated. I believe he made a statement meaning well and believing that he was going to do that and he said that by himself. But moving forward he realised that these things did not rely solely on Cross River State. Like you said, Cross River State is sub-national. There are certain approvals that must come from the national government that the state cannot do before you construct a Super Highway and a Deep Sea Port. You need certain approvals, AIAs and the rest of them that must come from the federal government. What politics played out at the end of the day? Who wanted a Deep Sea Port in Calaba? So many people did not. Our brothers from the West believed that if there was a Deep Sea Port in Calaba he was going to take over business from the West. And then approvals reluctantly or didn't even come at all. So you cannot single-handedly blame the Governor. I think the Governor meant well. He started these projects. He tried his best. He was frustrated. And you can't crucify him because of that. Let's move on. But is it right for me and on Luca, for example, to say that the Governor has been undertaking time and time again white elephant project knowing the bottlenecks because I'm guessing that even I as a journalist, before I undertake anything I would do my own feasibility studies. I would do my research knowing that there will be certain things that might block me before I do that thing or even make an oath of sorts or make a promise that if I do not deliver I should not seek for a second term. But of course these things happen. It's politics. So I'm asking, is it right to say that Governor Ben Ayade has always gone ahead to initiate white elephant projects and then the monies of the states are tied down and that maybe is the reason why Cross River State is as poor as it is right now. I don't agree with that. It's not only Ben Ayade that has made promises that he has Well, he's the governor of the states right now. He's the governor of the states now so he's our concern. It promises that they meant to keep but the circumstances If I would understand Can you allow him to speak? Mr. Venetius, Mr. Venetius, please, can you hold on? Let him speak. Mr. Venetius, can you allow some billions of Cross River State funds have been sunk into those projects? And until he said this, the governor has never come at any point in the public to explain that he's no longer proceeding with those projects. That's one. Two. It is the same way I'm looking at the idea of purchasing three aircraft and pretending to be constructing one of the biggest airports in the world in our village in Obudu called a cargo airport. I don't know the cargo that he tries to transport from Obudu into Obudu that warrants one of the biggest airports in the world. Well, maybe not to say I mean, one of the biggest Can you hear me? Can we have a very Can we have a a five kilometer runway at Obudu for a reason I might have to let you go if you keep interjecting. Tomorrow we'll have this same excuse because like you just called it Mr. Venetius, he came. I'm going to say this one more time. There is no intended to be achieved I might have to let you go if you do not allow the other guest to speak because when you're speaking I let him allow you to speak. Please, let's allow on a Bole go speak so that we can wrap up this conversation. Thank you. Please don't interject. Venetius has always interjected me and spoken all he wants. I think he's been emotional. I was just trying to be factual. I said let's not put all the blames on the governor. Let's think moving forward what we can collectively be. I don't know what about the superhighway and the deep seaport that is more emotional. I don't know what you have been talking about. Can we just let Lego answer? I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. Well gentlemen, I'm going to have to let you both go because unfortunately we're not having a conversation and it's just one person overlapping each other. I want to thank you. We have one more member of the Parlius of the People's Democratic Party. He used to be a former publicist secretary for the party. And Hon Aboole Goidao is a member of the House of Representatives and he's representing Bacara Obudu and Obanliku in the National Assembly. Thank you very much gentlemen. I'm sure that 2023 is going to be very interesting in Cross River. Thank you. Thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now a position on restructuring in Nigeria state with us.