 We're here to discuss diversity and inclusion and interestingly we have more women on the panel than men So with your permission ladies, can I direct the first question to the minority here? Okay, I'm it Tell me. Do you think advertising today is still all about the mad men? certainly not It's neither mad nor is it dominated by men anymore and the good part is it's not dominated by men anymore Which is which is fantastic. It's not mad. It's it's that's that's disheartening. It should be a little madder though. I Feel we've moved a lot away from just the men tag I think we've moved into a more diverse and a more inclusive way of working and Possibly if I may say so a more beautiful way of working I think it's it's rip advertising represents the society and and that's what our world is is about So in a in a short form. No, it's not mad men anymore for sure I shall you know you started an agency when you were just out of college and In the past 14 years 14 years, it's been How have you seen the evolution of diversity, you know in the industry in your agency? Are you seeing more women in the leadership positions today than earlier? Yeah, definitely first first. I just want to thank Sam for a wonderful address It was so decisive and so clear and really lays the framework. So thank you for that I think you know as at Shebang right now We're 51% of women in leadership 49% of men in leadership with three guys who run the company, but it's you know I mean, I don't think we can blame ourselves for that And We are about 60% women in the workforce 40% men in the workforce I think in addition to what Sam said as the opportunity with 30,000,000 clients 3 million clients I think the other opportunity for India is the India to the world opportunity Which is you know an example interesting example of infosys and infosys what infosys has done for it is what? marketing and technology Transformation, you know so the softer side of IT as I like to call it is what is our global opportunity? So I think as an Indian set of leaders We need to start getting good at that being able to you know I think the diversity challenge for us is less men versus women. It's how do we work with other cultures? Our culture is more tuned to working with other cultures So I think how can we better utilize that and I think also maybe eight to nine years down the line We will be having a totally different conversation because by 2050 Africa is going to be 40% of the world's population So the Indian leaders today who are good at working with the world are the ones who are going to rule the roost in Brazil and Africa as Service markets and you know then be able to cater to markets across the world So I think that's the India opportunity on diversity and inclusion and you know, of course I don't want to therefore bypass what we need to do in our own country, but I think that's the larger opportunity for us So from my understanding, I think representation part is definitely being taken care of slowly The second aspect is discrimination. I was speaking to Susan Kredel She's a global CCO of FCB and she mentioned that whenever she attended industry events She almost felt invisible because men willingly ignored her So I want to come to each of the women leaders on this panel and try and understand You know, have you faced any subtle discrimination in the industry? Something which is not bad enough to report but demeaning enough to you know, not let go lying down Can we start with you Preeti? I know you're looking at me in my eye and asking Of course it exists. It exists at home. It exists in office. It had existed when you travel in bus train Aeroplane, I mean I've got men walking up to me and I've posted in Facebook saying can you give me your I'll see You don't need so much like space dude Book it, right? So those kind of I mean that's a travel experience, right? All I'm saying is it exists But was I ignored and I felt blinded no never Because at least in the I started in media. I've never done the creative side of the business We had Rhoda Mehta, Kate Kee Gupta. We had enough stalwarts of women. I work with Divya Karani, Divya Radhakrishnan There's Anupriya in publicist heading it now There is a whole lot of us sitting here and lot more who are sitting who's gonna join you later Sonali Malviya, Moshmikar Name it. We have enough in the industry. Have you all faced discrimination and me and Ratik keep chatting about it in the past also? Of course we do it exists It'll continue to exist what is important is this unconscious bias or conscious bias We need to voice it out and table it and leave it for it to solve for The challenge occurs is when we are trying to put it under the carpet which happens 90% of the time so it's upon people like us Educated and in the leadership position immaterial of the gender to talk about it openly and not put it under the carpets today Lara, do you agree? No for my experience especially in the work environment. I've never faced any discrimination whatsoever Outside of work. Yeah, maybe it does exist But I would urge everyone or the few women over here if you ever feel discriminated against today there are enough policies and structures in place So please go out and report it only if you report it can some action be Taken so, you know, don't think anything is either too small to be brushed under the carpet if you felt something there are systems and infrastructure in place to Report such things so take full advantage of that But no, I have not faced any discrimination at least at work So I think I want to start off by saying that you know being really very lucky to have a family, you know who has been a great support and More importantly has Given, you know, allowed me to voice my opinions allow me to come forward and make my own decisions I think that's very very important to start with And the next thing is that also grateful for all the people. I mean, it's not just about women, right? Even men who have been great mentors and colleagues. I think you've been lucky in that front as well And just going back to the thing about discrimination. I think to a certain extent experience has helped me to recognize Organizations that kind of mirror your values and give you the support and give you You know that access to growth, right? Recognize your capabilities and I've been able to I think recognize that and capitalize on that and make those Changes as and when I thought was necessary, right? So to a certain extent, I think it's a bit of a mixed bag not necessarily have faced so much of discrimination but I do know it exists and I would echo what Preeti and Lara mentioned that don't leave it in the bag, you know, confront it Come forward and talk about it at the end of the day It's about being true to yourself, right? And I think all of the women over here to a certain extent have gone through the journey about being true to the Self and we are here because of that and I think that would be one big advice and echoing what both of them said, right? Just go out there and you know, embrace it and grab whatever you think is your right I think I want to ask you something slightly different I think that one differentiation when it comes to your work life is I think their maternity break And I've still seen men refer to it as a holiday as opposed to something That's absolutely essential in that life cycle of a woman. So have you kind of encountered something to that effect where, you know I mean, I'll leave it to you to answer So let me start first with my own experience. So, you know, I had children a little late, okay, and And I didn't have initially much support just me and my husband and for the first one and a half months You know every day I used to think okay do I want to continue in this work because can I really do everything together and Then after about a month and a half, I realized that yes It is something that you can do together, but you need to Co-opt a lot of people into your journey and sometimes, you know for men also it is about Sensitizing them, you know till they don't have a small child in the house They don't really realize the kind of work which it needs They don't realize what is the effort which has to go in and and through this journey I figured that it is about Sensitizing people because we are a very people intensive business, you know It's it's a place where you have to get all of yourself and unless we realize the problems that other people face By bringing them up by telling them by sharing with them They are quite often don't appreciate what the other person is going through and What I've seen over years now is that now people are even comfortable talking about paternity leave In fact just about two days back I got a mail from one of my colleagues saying that you know Guess what I'm here only for the next one week because then I'm going on a six week paternity leave and it was quite Okay, everybody was like yeah fine. He deserves this so nobody asked the question So I think we've come a long way But I think somewhere I would echo what the other ladies said that this this whole discrimination is so ingrained in different levels of society That it needs all of us to be vigilant that you know whenever it comes out We must call it out. We must share with other people that listen. There is a bias here, you know Let's let's review what we are talking about and change There's another aspect. I mean from an industry and work point of view We call advertising as an industry which kind of changes perceptions mindsets and still we see as which say My girlfriend chalti hair 500 rupee per kilometer, but Ola micro chalti hair patch repair per kilometer And even worse the recent layer shot ad which kind of made tried to make rape sound funny Which obviously wasn't so do you think that an equal? I mean having enough women or basically diversity in the team which was creating this ad or many other ads for that matter We'll make about make a difference and the ads will come out cleaner better more progressive Hasn't it been I mean I think these are of course very bad examples of what happened But they equally good examples of so many so-called women categories like washing machines or washing powders to what not where the Father is doing the mother is traveling or vice versa It reflects the trend right it reflects the change in the mindset It is sometimes in the initial days when those ads came it was like force-fitting the narrative But today in 2022 it isn't because pandemic changed things on how households are managed and how Women deal with work and how even men deal with work, right? So I think it's a welcome shift and there's more to come But to me the fact that we are counting headcounts and You know three three agency make it there women marriage. You know, I mean that is to me That conversation should stop. I think we have crossed that bridge to a large extent We need to be keeping an open eye and not be blindsided Definitely, but we need to now move beyond the human welfare and mental welfare And I think that's where we are traveling to so ads are one representation of the society definitely Just want to add in here, you know, I think laying what was set as the foundation at the start I think it's not just about having more women in the room because I think there are more women in the room You know if I take the example 60% women 40% men, so I don't think it's that I think that as an industry If we need to add more value to our customers and our clients I mean to our clients and their customers We need to be in sync with consumers and as an industry we've forgotten how to do that You know, we do not go and you know for us it is this one geography of this city that we live in which is a representation of our writers and you know for our creators That's where it comes from or it may be other geographies But we are not in touch with the consumer of this country as much as we need to and I think that's where diversity will come And if we listen with empathy and we really understand that's what's needed. I don't think it's more, you know Different genders in the room I completely agree. I think it's all about Sensibilities it's all about, you know, you know having the knowledge and the understanding of the consumer rather than do you have equal representation It's the mindset change. I think that is what is needed. I Think also Unfortunately today in India everyone has become so sensitive and so intolerant that you can just offend anyone and everyone, right? So I think just having a diverse team is not really going to help I agree. I think it's it's we need to be open to hearing more voices We need to be exploring a lot more Whether it's small town whether it's people with other kind of challenges, whether it's physical challenges or mental challenges You know some of these still remain a bit taboo So how do you bring all of these things a little more into the open because then you can converse then you can you know find solutions Representation is not a problem. We are seeing enough women. Yes, but you know, we also see cases like me too I mean it happened four years ago and at that point in time we saw a bunch of you know, very You know great leaders from the industry who came up and formed the collective Which was basically to fight against the boys club as they call it in the advertising world So do you think four years later much has changed? I mean do women have enough voice to actually speak out against the boys club within the industry Where's the boys club? I don't know. I think like I said today every organization by law has to have so many, you know For boards and all that in place that there are I think also now men are a lot more conscious And aware and they are careful before they open them out. So that's also I haven't spoken since the time the first question But I you know in some way or form It started the movement But I think what organizations have done post that is to create an environment where people are not too afraid to speak up even if it's Against some higher ups. I think it is not just about So we creating an atmosphere is also trainings Trainings of not just the people also managers. I think a lot is happening there where sensitization is is happening and and I feel That is the reason why It is much more safer and much more open now compared to say four years back and yes Because of the sensitization men are a lot more careful And it was a much needed cleanse actually So again tying back to if India has to be the service market of the world serving the world We can't afford to have these standards. So it was a much needed cleanse I think across organizations in our own organization There was a particular complaint against a head of business looking after a particular city office We didn't talk about it in the press was a head of business in the city office overnight There was a survey sent out to all the women in that in that particular office the consideration of all those women was considered There was it was a majority who had kind of you know said that look there has been some kind of an issue with respect to Communication not that there has been any I mean not that you know bad communication also should not be tolerated So there was no there was no inquiry or panel or anything of that sort also straight tomorrow You're not coming to work from tomorrow Because we cannot tolerate that in our workplaces if we want to be you know as as an industry If you want to be an industry that wants to serve the world and then lead the world We cannot tolerate this it can't even be a conversation. That doesn't mean if forum should not talk about it Please continue to talk about it. Let it be an industry voice, but you know, let's it's not even something that we should be Counting as a second nature Now I'd like to come to the client side. There's another example interesting again of FCB You know which ended a hundred-year-old relationship with Nivea Allegedly because the client made homophobic comments. I want to understand how many agencies in India today Have built their diversity plank strong enough to actually Sivertize or take a step this drastic. Are we ready to do something like that? Lara, I think the honest answer is we can't afford to do that, right? Okay, but having said that we've not we've never in all these years have come across such a situation That it's you know come to break point Okay, I'm it. What is it like it then so? see the the reality is that Of course when we we are talking about various things we are changing in in many ways Are we there certainly not there? We're taking baby steps and and evolving and changing there You you have to take a stand on on certain things We are taking stand on a lot of things cause sometimes it is a tricky situation. We learn on the go So, yeah, I I hope the situation doesn't arise but but yeah I think as we move along the way we are working things around and taking the right decisions, but baby steps that I said So I think talking about the particular example you raised see I think in our country some of these issues are not even known I mean quite often you don't even know what really is the Sexual bias. Let's say of people. It's not something that is openly discussed Yes, maybe in a small group, but otherwise not really known. So to even discriminate or to talk about it openly is a question mark Just recently we have started a survey wherein, you know You check for some of these things to understand whether people are comfortable being their true selves in office Are they able to engage with people? Do they feel that this is something that they can talk about and what we have found is that even today There is a lot of hesitance in terms of talking about certain issues not because somebody is discriminating But because you're just not comfortable in society at large. So I think it is it is good to open conversations But we are still far ahead, you know away from a lot of these things. I don't think we are there yet So I just want to add that WPP has an initiative called Unite which I'm part of it's amazing to see how people open up About their gender preferences and talk about their challenges I'll there is various various work streams that we are part of I'm part of one small one because for me the idea of getting Associated is because the operation that I run is a thousand member team. I will have that diversity. I need to accept it I have an eight-year-old at home who sometimes questions. What am I? I'm born as a boy. Am I going to be straight or? Am I going to be what in future? That's the awareness level an eight-year-old has today So I'm part of Unite to learn As leaders in the industry what Unite kind of platform allows us for them to express or any employee to express their Diversity challenges and come together as far as the client question. It's a little tricky. I mean, we haven't faced any as yet what FCB phase through But we'll cross the bridge when we come to it Actually, I'd like to ask each of you. What are the kind of do you have such teams within your organization? Which kind of deals with this Lara, can we start with you? No, so we don't have separate teams For this, but if anything were to come up, we would provide senior level attention to it and get the problem Solved we also have a fairly open system where Many people come up to the HR team and voice their concerns and they've been very organizing generous or outgoing with their Concerns so in that sense. Yes, but there's no separate team Yeah, so so there are committees Which are set up and they set up zone wise So so there is a Delhi committee. There is a Bangalore and a Bombay committee specifically for a reason because Sometimes people want to talk face-to-face. So and and this is represented by a lot of women and men of course at a senior level and most times if there is someone involved who is In any way also attached to this particular person. For example, there's someone in in my team There is a complaint against I'm kept out of it I don't even know what's happening around there till till it reaches the decision level So I think these things have been taken very very seriously and and these committees are formed There is an external person also there Which is in case There is a bias that comes in there is a person who can lead you to to the right Conclusion so these are these committees formed there and and yeah I think that just shows the seriousness of it and People talk about it and and I guess more comfort is created Interesting because I remember in 2016 we there was a lawsuit filed against the CEO of JWT Martino Gustavo's that I'm pronouncing it right and for perpetuating gender and race discrimination you're talking about the top most official doing that Do you want to add to that? Yeah, I mean at the publicist group. I mean this is now completely become mainstream for us We look at it on three different pillars. It's not just about diversity. It's about inclusion and belonging as well, right? We were talking about it earlier in the lounge that for us at the group. I mean having Anupriya at the helm For us, I mean apart from that I can give you so many stats, right? 50% of my Stockholm leadership of women Three out of four regional leaders of women so for us, I think diversity is We are there. I mean we're doing a lot in that space. We are there and for us. It's more about You know It's capability rather than you know, do you? Playing the gender card, right? You've reached this position because of your merit and I can vouch for all of us Over here the women in this place. It's not just about the agenda card It's about you know reaching this level of position because of your merit and your capabilities so similarly apart from diversity which we you know run through a Viva la program. We also have something called pride which focuses on LBGT QI, right? And we have enabled for differently able, right? So from a group perspective, there's so much happening in all these three pillars and For us, I think like I said diversity is part and parcel It's now the focus is shifting to kind of getting you know pride in place in India How do we move beyond you know just recognizing it but also being sensitive and you know building a safe environment? Have we achieved scale? No. Have we started work on it? Yes. We have workshops. We have classes We have allied groups, you know to sensitize people, etc So I think the group is doing a lot in the space and I think I'm quite excited because it's just a start and there's you know a lot more to do and Take off. I should Yeah, Chabang we have Three ways we look at it one is we have for the women we have the internal complaints committee and that's a strong Strong function that runs itself. There's independent external people as well as internal people involved. So that's one strong part We've also got she bang for good So she bang for good has two parts One is with respect to diversity and inclusion. We look at one part of diversity and inclusion from the point of view of LGBTIQ So there's enough people from the community that we've employed. So our workforce is about over thousand of us Between the five cities that we work in three in India and two outside India. So There's there's fair amount of representation within the workforce of the LGBTIQ community and they run sensitization workshop. So We had so we prefer for people from the community to run sensitization workshops We've recently got a recommendation that you need to have a separate third bathroom Which we're now kind of looking into as well And I think from an India perspective, you also got to look at diversity and inclusion from an economic standpoint because I think You know, most of us living here and sitting in this room and I can make the judgment on behalf of all of us I think we come from a space of relative privilege with respect to the rest of the country So I think you know and and you know our industry I don't think we employ our industry at the moment employees roughly give or take about four hundred thousand people You take just the IT majors combined. That's three X of us So as an industry we have a lot to do in terms of bringing people into the workforce and that is going to be through people Let's face it is going to be through people who do not have as much social economic exposure as us so Another part of our shebang for good team works with close to five thousand kids across schools where we work on Technical literacy Specific with respect to coding and creativity and we bring kids into the workforce. That's the agenda that we're working on so Right now it's five thousand But you know, I mean I've taken a pledge that for the next ten years It's going to be 10 X of the number of people we employ So I have to ramp up by September next it needs to be ten thousand and then you know as fast as we grow We will do 10 X of the number of people we work with so so we got to bring more kids into Into the workforce and especially from diverse backgrounds that are so should oh economically diverse and then some of the stuff that we keep at the top with respect to Respecting women treating them as equals respecting all different You know kind of sexualities and genders, etc. Respecting them as equals. I think then that kind of comes into play so at Abhiji we do have You know a global initiative plus the local arms which support Both people from different genders as well as women specifically But I think what we found apart from the committees which help is That somewhere it's not about a one brush for everyone. So Quite often in a lot of cases it has to be sensitively heard while you may be telling people that these are the rules Or these are norms and this is what we would like but quite often when we get into a problem or a situation Where somebody feels marginalized or somebody is feeling that you know, this is not how I would like to be seen then We have to create a more sensitive and special codes and what we found is usually it's about being flexible Rather than one norm which fits everyone and a case-to-case solution. So that's how we are right now dealing with it But I think we still have quite a few steps to take in terms of I think the economic part Which I should spoke about because that's quite an important piece now that you know You want more people to come into the workforce and you're seeing a lot of younger people who are coming in are from Outside major metros with very different kind of backgrounds. So how do you integrate them without feeling lost without feeling? You know not being a part of the group kind of a thing So those are other initiatives that we've taken on where in you have a mentor program And and you have a buddy who sort of helps you get into things and so on My next question was actually something that Herschel kind of touched upon beautifully You know, we've seen so many interesting ads talking about transgenders and how we should give them equal opportunities We had the can award-winning PNG Transgender moms then we had the Bhima advertisement, but when it comes to within are we employing enough? I mean are we at all looking into that aspect of in of employing people from that community and within our office spaces I don't think you recruit with that label, but you accept people as they are. I don't think today There's a human cry about it as much is what I see at least in the WPP and group of meco system Are people open about their gender preferences and all I don't think so as much But programs like Unite. I'm sure each group is doing their own stuff will allow people to express more in the coming years but I don't think it's a Recruitment strategy like how we need to get more women. It's not a recruitment strategy So I think I echo what Preeti said we've not actually I think received an application ever for from such a community But and if we were to receive I think we would evaluate it based on whether that person is able to do the job or not Do the job and how they can fit into our work environment And another a small before we wrap up I think another aspect is I think getting differently able people giving them an opportunity to come on board And I think pandemic has beautifully kind of aided that so are we seeing many like Amit says are we seeing a good percentage of people from the differently Who are differently able in the Advertising industry today. Are we giving them enough opportunity to work with flexible hours or whatever they need? I don't think so But you've given us something good to think about as a good good note to end on because you've given us something and you provoked Us with something to think about So I was just going to say we do have some people already with us who are differently able But I think we need to scale up because they may need different facilities They may need some more facilitation in terms of flexibility and and maybe even technology So there are some more steps that we need to take but yes We do currently also have people who are differently able and who are working. I think superbly well with us Also, let me add so we're doing a little bit of it but a little bit of it and The this I think the discrimination While recruiting is far far lower what we need is for these guys to come up and and we need to create those Opportunities of these guys coming up and wanting to be a part of it that we haven't done enough of I think we've shed the inhibition of You know discriminating because of some disability, but I guess we haven't done enough of getting them to come up I think we are out of time. Anybody wants to add something or we can conclude Superb, so I think we should Practice diversity because it's not just because it's the right thing to do But also because it gives us access to a larger talent pool and an opportunity to do so much so much more So I think on that note, I'll conclude and thank you so much for being such amazing panelists. Thank you for joining us here