 Well, let's begin. Let me welcome everybody. Let me welcome you all to the Future Trends Forum I'm glad to see you all here today My name is Brian Alexander. I'm the forums creator on the host and the chief cat herder and today We're really going to dive into a fantastic subject with the help of a terrific person But before we do that, let me introduce the forum Let me explain what its goal is how it works who sponsors it and then we'll join this week's guest To begin with let me just tell you that we have been doing the forum for well more than four years We are in fact in our fifth year, which is very very exciting The forum if you're new to it is a conversation based venue what I'm doing right now. We're showing you a slide I'm only gonna do for a minute The goal instead was to have conversation. So we don't have presentations. 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That's the technology behind it That's how we how we pay for it. That's our intention now What I'd like to do is welcome this week's guest. I'm absolutely delighted to have Mary Churchill here She is a Dean at the University of Boston She's also the creator of the University of Venus Which is a fantastic ongoing effort to explore and celebrate the role of women in education The theme here I think is for us to think about the role of women in higher education How women what challenges women face and how women create a new academia all around this and how we can best help Mary welcome Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I'm so glad you could make it I have I have so many questions to ask you and I need to get out of the way and let everybody else ask the questions But let me begin. Okay, two really really easy questions. First What are you gonna be working on for the rest of 2020? What's what's uppermost in your mind? What's gonna be taking up the most hours as it as you go forward? In my life So I just I think you know this we I just submitted a manuscript to Johns Hopkins for a book it's called the good closure and that was around the Wheelock College Boston University merger, which I was the Chief academic officer at Wheelock and helped lead that merger and now I am associate dean at Boston University Wheelock College leading the building of this new college. So Finalizing that getting that ready for spring 2021 publication will take up probably the rest of this year but also new project that I'm working on which is the lack of gender diversity and higher ed boards and And senior leadership teams at universities in the United States. So that's a brand new project It just presented on that for the first time last weekend. So Well, so you have two research projects and meanwhile you're helping lead a new academic entity to existence Yes, those would be the top priorities, right? That's fantastic And podcasts and blog posts, you know that kind of stuff Well speaking of blog posts, that was the second question asked. So for people who don't know this What is the University of Venus? So the University of Venus is something that I started with a small group of women about ten of us in 2010 So we had a brainstorming session. We thought, you know, we don't feel comfortable at our current institutions kind of asking, I guess, risky or challenging questions and so We were looking for a community Where we could feel like we could field some questions and get some answers. We were coming up with challenging issues of the future of higher ed and so Blogging was big then right and just 2010 so we started a blog with an editorial collective of ten women and It was one of those DIY wordpress jobs where we were just Logging away and then we were approached right away by inside higher ed So I think we started in January and by June we were at inside higher ed That was exciting. It was when inside higher ed started blog you so it was right in the beginning of all of that and Then the Chronicle approached us and asked us to move from inside higher ed to the Chronicle and we said no We said no, we don't agree with your paywall model So we did not do it and we stuck with IHE and they've been wonderful and so we're on year 11 and We've had writers from over 30 countries. We've had Guest contributors, I think over a hundred women and some men have blogged with us around Myriad of issues so I'm sorry. Can you say that number again was it over a hundred contributors? Yes We're in year 11 No, but you know, you've got you've got fiends like like Josh Kim. We just you know go a one person then Yeah, we're talking about a mighty collective. That's a lot of folks It says some pretty intense community building and that was I think our priority from the beginning was not necessarily to get One person's voice out there, you know or kind of my voice out there But how do we create a platform that we can amplify a bunch of women and and some men around issues, right? So kind of issues that are near and dear to their heart and really try to do that across the globe which I think was We were originally one of the international blogs at inside higher ed when they had an international group So they brought us on the worldview and global higher ed results blog at the same time So we were billed in the international space, which was great and and it's it's still wonderful Well, and I just you know, wholeheartedly recommend it This is one of my regular reads and I'm always always Excited to learn and to see what comes up from this Well, I promise to two easy questions. I had no idea that they would reveal such vast enterprises That's really really awesome Let me just a quick look of a few folks have just come on in like Kenan and Regina Jasmine Dan and Chris Roxanne Charles Roberto Robin Rebecca Angela and Doyle people just been flocking in as we've been talking The forum is all about conversation and I I want to hear from folks so let me just remind everybody is that the The video option and the text option both stand open and if you'd like to chat with each other Just use the text chat, but I really want to hear from you on those two different through those two different buttons I've got a ton of questions. Well, let me just start off with one. That's a maybe an unusual question for the past 300 years higher education the US has mostly been a men's institution most of the Faculty have been men most of the administration has been men most of the students have been men But starting at a certain point recently the majority of students have been women Both undergrad and grad schools and across the United States and we're just continues to widen Which is just remarkable and I don't think it receives the attention. It's do so a question like to ask you is How does that was that particular fact change? Higher education that the normative student is now a woman rather than a man How does that change the academia do you think? Well, I think one thing that I've noticed right away is that there is more pressure on diversifying the teaching workforce and the administration, right? I think as we diversify our student body With gender and race diversity the students do put pressure on The universities to diversify the leadership, but also the faculty, right? so they they want a faculty that represents them and looks like them and When they don't have that they speak out so that that's just an immediate piece that I've noticed That isn't just around gender, but also around race It's a great question I You know do does teaching style change? I mean I would think about that piece too Do we Have to teach differently to for different types of students in different audiences? I guess that's one question to ask different gendered styles of communication within the classroom either online or face-to-face Well, that's something that I've I've been I mean in my own experience I've been I've been seeing I don't know if I told you the story when first time I taught a writing seminar in the 1990s I have my students write short papers and workshop them with each other pretty couple of pedagogy and One young woman wrote an essay about different styles of speech and in the workshop discussion One of the students a male said I don't think that's true I don't think that really applies at all and she started to say well if you look at the end he interrupted her and And and then and she started responding to her again and and it was the whole class turned on him Do you realize what you're doing? And he didn't not until the end But do you do you think maybe we'll see a greater emphasis in Perhaps discussion-oriented Pedagogy's more interest in project-based learning or perhaps we'll see a Decline in the kind of fiercely competitive structure that we have in our education everything from grades to those You know as so I we we just had a podcast conversation our podcast goes live this afternoon with sherry I'm gonna kill her last name because it's it's Shbilich at if I'd listener on Twitter and the whole conversation was around the importance of listening and in that conversation I said, you know, I think 20th century skills were all about speaking and presenting and Knowing your stuff and kind of having that confidence and teaching our students to have that confidence to perform in front of the classroom and present and I feel this real turn towards teaching our students to listen and Be better listeners and to really engage and listen and involve Involved with reflective behavior where you know, you can actually listen to someone and repeat back what they've just said to you because you've Actually really listened to them not just waited for them to finish. So I do think there's this turn And I don't know if it is tied to gender or Yeah issues we're facing in the world right now Well, that's I hope so Yeah, a fantastic turn Friends, please consider yourselves unleashed to ask Questions everything from pedagogy and enrollment to professional development Should I should I call you Dr. Churchill or do you prefer your your dean title? Mary's fine Yeah, but yeah, Mary's fine I consider myself calling you Brian so you can call me Mary If you but you mentioned your your newer research project Representation of women on boards and in senior administration. So if any of you would like to ask questions about that Please feel free as you can tell Mary is very kind and Clearly, obviously a great listener and we'll take your questions very very seriously So while people are scrambling to to ask their own questions Let me ask a different question Which is how can all of higher education? male female non-binary all together best support women in as Scholars and as administrators right now. I think a lot of the work I've seen Many people not just women but but women disproportionately struggle with is around caretaking so women are often Particularly women of a certain age in the sandwich generation But men are in this situation too of taking care of children and taking care of elders And so I think there are these responsibilities outside of work that that are really putting a lot of pressure on on people who are cared taking that caretaking role and then They end up doing that type of work in the workplace, too So they end up being the people and this is true for folks of color women of color Students of color will go to them Where they're doing a lot of that caretaking at in the universities, right? They have service obligations that are sometimes official and sometimes unofficial where their advisees Will be extensive and will sometimes have more challenging issues that require more time and emotional labor So I think that piece and that's not that that can be men or women But it's the studies show that disproportionately it falls on women in the departments. I think that's an important That's tough work. I think teaching is tough. I mean teaching is emotional work and we don't talk about it enough But for those of us, which is the majority who really care about our students. It's emotional labor and I think that When we tie it too much to workforce development and just skill development, we take all of the human piece out of it So It's just my plug for emotional labor of teaching sure sure No, I completely agree and again those of you in the Participant swarm who are either instructors right now or who are closely with instructors this is a great time for you to perform the question about that about the Role that emotional labor plays an instruction, but also how institutions can best support people conducting such work Well, let me you know, let me turn the question around to another side If I were to ask what are the biggest challenges facing women in higher education? Especially thinking about faculty and administrators as well students. I mean the short answer is to say sexism patriarchy misogyny But I'm wondering in your work the University of Enos What are some of the biggest challenges under that header that have that the loom largest and you mentioned Women playing a disproportionate role in emotional labor and caretaking. What are some of the other challenges that we should be aware of? I pay it pay inequity Right, so there is pay inequity within similar Same rank same title same department, but then there's also the predominant The feminization of casual labor within academia, right? So the lower you are on the pay scale within academia, whether that's Faculty or staff and administration You have more women right and the higher up you get if you're a full professor You're less likely to be a woman. You're more likely to be a man if you're you know The college president or the president's cabinet or on the board you're more likely to be a man So there is that inequity structurally and even within same positions. There's a pay inequity part of it is Men negotiate harder and continue to negotiate I see that where Men will get an offer, you know, even when they're in their position, you know, they're an associate professor they'll get an offer from another institution and come back and Will negotiate a higher salary for them. They're much more likely to do that than women. So How do we By we at academia and academia Jason, how do we solve that? How do we address that? Well, I think there is a training I think you know being at a state institution versus being at a private institution at the public All the salaries are public. So that helps that that brings a Certain check on the behavior of the behind-the-scenes negotiation Unions help with that right unions prevent you from giving a pay raise behind the scenes You also lose people because you can't give them a retention boost, but So there are some measures that bring in some equity Well, that's um and then training, you know training people who hire and who are able to negotiate higher salaries for folks Well, that's you just laid out a comprehensive program. Thank you. I mean we're done here. I mean I just solved all the problems, right? Yeah I can I can tell from the from both the clarity of your expression as well as how much is packed into it I can see both The voice of someone who has been writing regularly for a general audience and explaining things very clearly in a short form Inside her head as well as an academic administrator who asked to speak with the first audiences mobilizing So I've been in administration since she's 94 maybe Yes, so So, yes Wow, I hadn't real I just I had not realized that So that yes, I I'm used to talking about these types of issues. I think we've come a long way I you know, it is amazing. We We are diversifying racially gender Sexuality people being more open and feeling more comfortable being open about their sexual preference It is it is a vastly different world, but it is as everything within higher ed It's slow for some of us. It feels painfully slow and it's incremental And for some of us we can see how much further we have to go, right? And so Yeah, that's it's keeping your optimism at the same time you're trying to make change happen I saw a good stat on a semi-related story Which was looking at how campuses responded to the coronavirus in february And in the first half of february campuses were slow to respond to the outbreak in china You know in terms of of You know testing students or study abroad. Yeah, but in the second half of february Once the outbreak branched out to south korea, italy and iran Then campuses responded much more quickly And it it wasn't so much the change in nation In fact, the nations that it spread to were less significant in many ways for the us But I think a growing awareness of the problem And so the response curve up and I wonder if we might not be seeing that in higher education I you know, that's interesting and just for a moment to speak to that issue It'd be interesting to see if the institutions that have a higher percentage of chinese students Were more on the ball faster because they were seeing the economic impact of this Well, I've been I've been trying to track that and I found some of that in southeast asia australian and New Zealand institutions, which have often have a lot of chinese students Were very very quick to lobby their government and and so on I haven't been able to differentiate that within the us though. It's a it's a great question Friends you're being too kind and letting me have the floor and then you should stop some questions We hear your thoughts. We need to hear questions. So again, please just either press the The raised hand button if you want to join us appear on stage, which is easy as can be If you'd like you can imagine the start trick transporter sound as that happens Or you can just press the question mark button and quickly type in a question We haven't had any questions from twitter. We've mostly just had signs of appreciation Dr. Rebecca Pope Rourke, Rourke excuse me in their mangler last name Said that the merry church was talking about teaching as emotional labor and emotional work Agreed there is a vulnerability when we enter into the classroom, especially if one has no pedagogical training Problems and research are good problems and we're teaching our taboo Um, so that was their question. That was very comment So thank you for that I have like I said, I had I had tons of questions and I want to approach the university of venus from Uh another angle perhaps from mercury, uh, which is to ask What do you think of the connection between the rising number and status of women in academia and technology Is this an area where You know everything from it departments, you know, how can we grow more women in it departments to How can we best support women through technology? hmm It's not something that you know, I mean I think of um The online environment that we've been able to grow in in university of venus, right? So I think that the community we've developed there has been completely enabled through technology And the zoom conversations we have for our podcast I was just it's we could not have built a global community of 100 contributors without technology, right? And I think so for that I I mean that part seems easy. Um I do think that it's it is one of those areas that's been hard to diversify racially and with gender Um sciences in general. I was part of an advanced grant at uh northeastern university you know kind of diversifying Getting more women in the stem fields as an nsf advance multi-million dollar multi-year institutional transformation grant and There's some great resources through advance the different iterations of the advanced grants, but it's um What's interesting around Stem is that a lot of the work happens in teams as you know, and so you have It's it's very collaborative and you'll have the articles or you know have 30 to 45 authors But it's a really challenging space for women to break into and so women are underrepresented in those areas But all the studies show us that women are better at collaborative work. So it's kind of this um You know, you would think that It would be a space where women would excel So the gatekeeping and the barriers are what we start to look at what what's in the way of that. So Maybe technology, which you know technology has done a lot of collaborative work in technology too But it's an area where a lot of women are kept out So it's so interesting because we in many ways You know the culture around technology is vast, but there's this perception that That that technology is Isolating or solitary You know, we often even when we speak about it. We'll talk about Um, a screen or a piece of hardware rather than us using that to communicate with somebody else In reality, we love technology. We always have Let me circle back just this one you said which which was blew me away And I want if you could unpack it a little bit and then we've got a couple questions It's just okay when you mentioned the university of venus and growing that community If you could say a bit more about how you did that through the Primarily text part of of columns and then you could say a bit more about how you did that with uh video and audio So I think part of part of the reason that University of venus grew so quickly and Was so successful is that we were In the higher ed space, but we were incredibly inclusive And you could argue that not focusing on men You know, you could go down that path, but we've always said and and men are welcome. We prioritize women, but men are welcome so but we did lots of calls for guest bloggers and That's common now. It wasn't common none. So this was you know, 11 years ago We were like, we're looking for contributors. We are looking for guest bloggers You can even submit a post in Another language. It doesn't have to be English and we'll translate it into English for you. So the mastermind behind you venus, uh, the the person I created this with meg paladino Runs the english language run summer programs and english language programs at Yale And we're working together at northeastern doing that and so we had this orientation towards kind of a preference for global contributors and people whose first language was not english and so That approach of being very inclusive and trying to create a space where everyone felt welcome And that they belonged and that they had a contribution to make was part of the ethos of the construction of that space um, and so we had I mean we had we've had people from all over the world And we're we will do some hand-holding, you know, we asked for a 750 word contribution But we'll get academics in europe who will submit something that has 3 000 words Just to the trouble ahead Right, so we'll do the work of okay. This is how you bring it down to 750 and here's how maybe you You know, we want to keep your voice there, but we also want to make it readable and so we've done that back and forth work of really um Helping people uh find this space as a community. So Wow, great. Well, thank you. That's that's that's important now the podcasts are through zoom So we're recording through zoom so we're not just doing you you've been on a podcast through rock in the academy So you know That even on that one. So we're trying to build this community face to face on this virtual environment Even though we're just using audio there is something about Being able to see the folks that you're talking to that makes it richer. So Like yeah right here exactly To me but the production process is that you use zoom and you use video for the for the conversation But then the output the video is gone the output is audio only. Yes, that's very clever. That's very very clever Um, we have a whole bunch of questions. It just came in just oh good Hopefully quark in let me just put a couple of these up on Screen for you to see okay, and these are not in any particular order except the way they came in so, uh, we've got Um from angela you georgia tech who asks what strategies have you found to be effective in addressing implicit bias in academia? I feel brian actually was just exhibited or illustrated an example from his class I think calling attention not in a negative way, but if you can call attention to bias implicit bias or microaggression on the spot Um, and you're in a group environment the way brian did within his class. I think that is very effective because all you actually really introduce is a pause and asking people to look a little closer at what's going on and most people in the room will have an aha moment and Realize what has just happened so that I have actually found that to be one of the most effective ways because You're using the dynamics of the group rather than just a single person kind of calling it out Um, but sometimes you have to be stronger than that right sometimes people don't see it Um, and sometimes you have to protect the person who is um the recipient of the bias And so that is that takes a different method. That's One-on-one conversations with folks where you kind of you know, tell them what happened and show them You know kind of what happened Really engaging if you have a leadership group that you can engage around this If that's a group of chairs or a group of program directors if you're dealing with faculty So using your leaders official and unofficial leaders to help you change culture so Yeah, so but it's a sensitive issue if you can pull it if you can draw it out in a public or a group setting It can be very effective and you can change culture Very quickly because you actually can realize that most of the people in the room have noticed it And and you just create the space where they can feel comfortable Saying that they noticed it. So Well, thank you. That's a great answer and angela. Thank you so much for the terrific question Thank you. If you're new to the forum, that's an example of a text question Now I'd like to show you an example of a video question This is a barbara hall from north central university A director of curriculum and an associate professor of something barbara, but it got cut off Hi Barbara Hello Hi, thank you so much Um, so my question relates to a phenomenon. I seem not necessarily at my university Um, I live near other universities major or one universities and sometimes I see this phenomenon where Um Women engage in almost bullying like behaviors tearing apart other women in order to sort of reiterate their perception of superiority or or look what what I've been able to do and you have to go through the ringer like I did and I'm wondering Similar to what you mentioned about culture. How can we change that culture when it Occurs, why do you think that is is it just that some of the women who've had success have had to Demonstrate those behaviors because they've had to learn those Yeah, how do we address that in the future of higher ed for women are working apart instead of together That I think is one of the most challenging situations, right and it's heartbreaking Wait a minute. You're supposed to be on my side. Um I think I sometimes I think there are some generational differences So part of the reason we started university of venus with this gen X focus Because we were dealing with a lot of that from Baby boomers and older women who had you know fought so hard to get into such few positions. And so The behavior you described is something that we many of us had encountered really and so That that is challenging, uh, you know, I I think that in general academia is Uh Chris newfield just described this to me very effectively and I thought I thought it was something that I had just imagined Um, the general culture is this passive aggressive middle-class white culture Which is does not value direct communication, right? So I think that there is a challenge of Women not always being effective direct communicators Right. So I find myself um trying to read between the lines like what What did they not say or what did they say or what did that really mean and so because I'm very blunt direct communicator So I I will get into trouble sometimes where I'm not reading between the lines effectively, but um I think the the best thing for me that I have found in those types of situations. Um Some of those situations I've addressed directly When I thought that that could be effective and sometimes that work has worked and sometimes it has backfired on me But I also think that And that's if that person's in a leadership position above you, right? That's that's a really challenging position but um Again, I think engaging leaders within a unit so engaging chairs or engaging program directors and and trying to problem solve with a group is I found very effective at um Getting behavior to change getting people's behavior to change Sometimes they don't even realize what they're doing or that their behavior is having the impact it has so Thank you. Welcome. Thank you for the question. It's that's the toughest question that has been asked Brian's questions were so easy. That's a tough tough question. What do you do when the women Are disappointing you because they're acting in a way that really uh, you know, marginalizes you, right? so Well, thank you Barbara. It was a great question and um, Mary, that was a small dissertation of an answer. Thank you Um, that was really really rich. We have more questions or just piling in so let me bring this is one from uh Kenan Solanero who asks what about changes in the system itself first training women in negotiation risks a label of aggressive To the system itself could potentially change such that negotiation itself is more partner Ooh, that's interesting partner negotiation. I don't Can you explain further or do we Kenan if you if you'd like to follow up either uh, just just click the raise hand if you're up for video Or just type in another question. Uh text and and I can flash that on the screen as well, whichever you like Uh, in fact, uh, kenan, just uh, bring ken up on stage. Okay. That's fascinating partnered. I love it Hello, and is it kenan? So, okay All right. So you're hearing me now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had to change computers I I had lost the connection before so here I am So I missed some of the presentation. I look forward to going back and seeing the recorded But I too have been um In STEM I'm a woman in science and in fact one of the first faculty in chemistry at georgetown. That was female I was female number two And what I'm asking about on that partnering is you know, there's this whole movement in my generation For what I used to call taking a man's suit and making it into a skirt, right to masculinize the female And negotiation is such a practice And it doesn't fit well for women just like a business suit that suddenly has a skirt on it. Isn't really the best look, right? So in the negotiation should we perhaps question That whole premise that one fights for oneself and that this is the sort of um You know the the gladiator version of how one makes oneself up the ranks in academia Because it doesn't fit well for women It's not it has a general thing and I even hearing that Myself saying that I'm thinking well, maybe I could rephrase that But might we question the system rather than try to train up women Yeah, no, and I think studies have shown that it's it doesn't work well for people of color either It really works well for white men so um But what the partnering piece what do you mean by partnering in a negotiation? well, what I mean is that the The entity that is expecting to be negotiated with by a white male But not necessarily with the other groups that they they partner rather than be the negotiation um And judge judger, you know the judge of the negotiation process So they themselves lower themselves and how the process works and say okay, we're here on the same page We're trying to create a great Academic environment. You are a candidate. Um, how can we partner together? So that we have our needs met you have your needs met no matter what how how you're showing up No matter what you're packaged in Yes, yeah, and I you know I have done some of that organically myself With staff members when I've made offers to them and they've taken the offer that I've given them I have told them No, never ever take the first offer, right? So I've kind of walked them through here is you know against my better interests, right? If I'm managing my budget, I'm not supposed to do that, but I do it because I think it's the right thing to do um And so I have taught them how to negotiate on the spot and and given folks more because I think it's right to do that But even that's I'm going to interject here just quickly because I have a good friend at stanford Who recently went through that and even that seems like an early step in that direction because her experience of it was the person said yes, you should negotiate but then also Cut down anything that she came forward with it was a very awkward kind of first step to be coached And how you should there's something better. We could be doing there. Yes. Yes. Yes, and I've seen um I've seen hiring managers change behavior in this area, right where They go back to in my situation they'll go back to a provost and and ask for basically Negotiate on behalf of the candidate Because they feel that the candidate did not Negotiate enough for themselves. So they'll get kind of permission to go back and offer more As if the candidate had asked for more so, uh, which never happened in the past It's like that that but it's an it's an equity-minded approach, right? Because they they have realized I've just hired this man who negotiated for x and I'm about to hire this woman Who did not negotiate this this is wrong. So they're trying to build those steps in Great, and how do I get back down off the stage here? I push you right off. I think brian just Thank you That's great. Great question Um You see friends. This is uh, this gets to work really really smoothly, uh, and we have more questions that are coming in I don't need to do it because or two you're just doing it on your own which is perfect We have a question from carry pennell Who asks how do we make visible the work of boards? And how important is it to diversify boards? Oh, carry. That's the best question ever That is my mission in life So, uh Boards are very very hidden. Um, and boards as we know run our universities, right? I mean Uh, this is I think when people ask me about making moves from one institution to another I tell them to study the board and look at who is on that board and Because that board will choose your next president and they will choose the direction of your institution in the next 10 years I and I think that boards are not visible at all. And so I think that individually we all need to start asking more about the boards Um, and making ourselves aware of who is on the board of our institution Um, and when I talk about diversity on boards, there's gender diversity There's race diversity, but it's also Where do these people do for a living? Right now if they're all coming from the corporate sector Even if they're racially and and diverse and diverse by gender that is not a diverse group Um, I was once in an institution where everyone on the board was corporate and they diversified by adding lawyers Again, I would say that is not a diverse group And so, you know, do you have writers? Do you have artists? Do you have folks from the nonprofit world? So I those are really important questions, but it is invisible work and they have all the power So that's my next topic for research And I think that um, I'm on a mission to make that work visible and make them visible. So Right now we have pressure in higher ed to diversify faculty And the boards are actually putting that pressure on the administration, but no one is putting pressure to diversify boards Well, this is your uh, your goal and my mission in life Kerry is at the council for independent colleges, which is a great group about a thousand or plus College universities. So that might be a great group to work with a good partner. Yeah Uh, we have another video question that's come in. This is just coming Picking fast here and this comes from a former student of mine at Penn now at Penn State the awesome mark Kozitzka So let's bring mark up on stage Hello mark. I think you're muted There we go. Hello. Uh, thank thank you. Uh, brian bren always mentions that too and and by the way, ken and I believe I'm from georgetown as well too. So, uh, thank you for for teaching as well anyways, uh, one of my big folks is in on I work at I work in it Learning and development and uh, and one of the one thing that's always been fascinating to me is You know, is the relationship between higher ed and the labor market and so one of my questions Is so the labor market there are obviously various ceilings that everyone encounters, you know, male female, etc Etc cultural wise, um regarding educational background, you know, whether the requirements having a b a m a etc etc And this is particularly evident In higher education whether it be regarding, you know, in structure tenure track, etc, etc or administrative Let it be management per department per, you know, college, etc, etc And as educators, what can we do or what message can we tell? You know our women students regarding these ceilings that, you know For these women students that may not want nor particularly have the time or money To, you know pursue additional qualifications, whether it be another, you know, master's degree, you know, or a phd Um where when they're competing for a job that may have, you know The requirements of a b a or an m a but, you know For a woman, you know to kind of even stand out in a crowd of, you know, perhaps men and these applicants that they may need that You know, kind of bump up of, you know, of a, you know, of another educational kind of tier or what have you So what advice could we, you know, could we provide? You know, um women, you know that are in that position that may not get may not have the time or money to get those qualifications to compete You know, in a, you know, in one of these one of these fields and also, you know, how could you potentially address that to You know regarding regarding culture. Maybe you have, you know, a woman student from, you know, uh A middle eastern background or something like that. So could you speak on that a little bit? Thank you. I'm having elizabeth warren uh flashes. Sorry I mean, the question is, you know, basically How do you go about advising a woman that she needs more qualifications than her male That's what I heard, but maybe I miss her Well, yeah, I don't mean to, you know, sound, you know, make it sound derogatory or anything like that But you know, so for instance, how would how would you? Yeah, how would you stand out? Right? Yeah, how and how can we, you know, potentially address that? So, you know, for instance from a male perspective to Uh, you know to to a female student or something that that is that is seeking that type of advice that again may not You know want to or you know Want to pursue, you know, additional educational qualifications for you know, for whatever reason Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that if We're advising them to go above and beyond their competitors. That's one thing If we're advising them to get the qualifications or not, I think I would say the same advice for men, right? You know, do you do you want to go for this master's? Do you want to go for this doctorate? Um I think that to ask them to kind of go above and beyond their competitors Um In this area That might not even be effective. Um, I think from what I've seen the The best practices for hiring are when you're actually You know applying for a position at a place that has Got in the training and has diversified their search process and they have those protocols in place And more and more of us do now, right? Your pool has to be diverse At every stage of the of the search process and if it's not it's often a rejected search. So um if If this person, you know, this kind of potential student is applying for positions Where that's not the case or in a in an environment where that's not the case I think it's a challenging situation And I don't think individuals can change it by themselves, right? So it's kind of those Those are structural changes that need to happen. I'm kind of imagining her being in this tech sector that's dominated by men and If it's that hard to get in and get the job It's going to be hard for her to be successful to get promoted to feel valued like that's going to be tough all along. So um I don't know if I would tell her to get additional credit credit credentials for that so Appreciate that I mean any, you know, just any any bit that, you know, making more dialogue that we can have around it. So thank you so much Thank you. Thank you. Um, and I mean not all of these questions have Tram financiers, um, we do have a uh comment that came in we just put this up on the stage Uh, and this is from Mercedes Fisher at Concordia University He says I really like these options to help women with these offers I'm afraid But committee member after I accepted a job to start working I would have had 12,000 more a year if I had negotiated Wow Wow Um, I will say I have never ever ever heard of someone losing a job because they negotiated But I've never heard of a situation where an offer was taken away because they tried to negotiate So just just think about that. There's no there's no cost like that Right, right. And even if they can't if you can't negotiate your base salary, you can negotiate moving costs I know someone who negotiated moving costs if anyone knows the boston area from uh, cambridge to boston So sometimes the person who's hiring can't give you more money in your base salary But they have other pools of money available to them where they can give you money So it never hurts to negotiate ask for more vacation time Ask for professional development. That's that's hefty 10 000 a year professional development. Just do it So this is great That's a heartbreaking story. That's why I'm like, ah And when someone tells you afterwards that oh if you had negotiated you could have gotten more Um, that's salt in the wound Did my screen just go black I froze everyone on my screen froze May may have been at one of our ends, but but either we're both back Let me just back up because this is a great question. I know put that back up This is this is a classic deep question. Jessica served at penn state who asked Yeah, such a hurdle for women to get into stem. Did they get turned away or discouraged? I actually think that links to the question that was just asked not about the negotiating salary But the prior one of do you talk folks go into going into fields where it's a hostile environment for women? I I do think or or people of color I I think there are some brave souls that will go into those spaces And they are challenging spaces, but yes, I think they're discouraging for You know stem can be very discouraging for women Uh, and I think that we've learned that you need to recruit students or hire faculty in groups Um earlier someone talked to I think it was uh, no, I can't remember her name now Um, who was the first hiring chemistry right to be the first woman to come into an all male department To be the first person of color to come into an all white department We that is a heavy left for an individual Um, and so we have I learned some good lessons in higher ed to hire in clusters Hire women in groups build affinity groups on campus so that people have Spaces to regroup and share share their experiences and work with administrators to improve the climate on campus And in their department and I think the same thing for people of color. Um, and so I breaking into a male dominated uh department field is really really challenging and so um I would advise people on the market to to look for departments that have done some cluster hiring Or that have some resources in place So they've acknowledged that this is a challenging space and they're trying to work on that And in the hiring conversations are the when you're on the search Ask pointed questions about this Are there resources for women on campus? through the provost's office where Women in the STEM areas can come together Because it is any anything Faculty work already is very isolating but to be One of the only women or to be one of the only people of color in a department. It makes it even more so That's really good advice. We are almost out of time And which is remarkable. We've just blasted through an hour But we have time for there's one more a couple more questions Let me bring up one from someone who hasn't asked a question yet today This is from the awesome rock sand risk him who asks I notice that guest writers discussed having a grateful attitude for helping reduce stress What have you seen as new initiatives? Whoops. Sorry. Let me put that back up again What have you seen as new initiatives to support mental health and wellness at the university for women? So I've seen new initiatives not just for women but also For people of color and and for different affinity groups But also I I've seen some real moves in health and wellness over my time in higher ed to Really just an awareness that we need support And that that work can be really stressful Especially work that involves working with students and helping students I think as we've seen that we need to put some more supports in place for students on our campuses We've realized that we also need to do the same thing for staff and faculty And I I think again the students have pushed us to Build affinity groups for students right for female students or black students or latinx students And they have also helped us create space where we build similar affinity groups for faculty and staff Um, so I think our our students ironically are our best allies in this situation for making culture change happen quickly on campus Students have been very effective um So it's a long answer, but use your students effectively Great. That's a great answer and thank you for that and thank you rock sand for the great question Unfortunately, I have to thank us all for the hour because it is done. Uh, we have reached the end Um, Mary, thank you so much. Well, Brian. Thank you. Thank everyone for the great questions too. It was a fabulous conversation Thank you for the forum people do this. They're they're terrific Let me ask where can people keep up with all of your different work? There's the university of venus and inside higher ed. Yep. Yep I have a few podcasts, uh rocking the academy with uh rupakarism And I have the view from venus which is an extension of university of venus And then also this it's kind of episodic podcast. It's called x ed. It's about experiential ed or experience ed x ed and let's see Twitter is a great place to find me uh at mary underscore churchill and linkedin I'm very, you know, you can send me a message on linkedin and say We participated in this conversation together and then I'll I consider that My modern day rolodex linkedin so um linkedin and twitter are really good places to find me Well, that all works and you all heard it here friends. These are all the different ways It can keep up with mary churchill's terrific work. Uh, thank you so much I'm I'm just delighted that you had the time for us All best with your new research project all best. Thank you Hawkins book when it comes out Let us know so that we can bring you back to talk awesome and then we'll talk mergers and closures I'm always you know me. I'm happy to discuss that. I'm that kind of person Again, thank you so much