 Platino, you're still there. Just before now, we were talking with Nick Agoulet on the problem of housing in Nigeria, and he outlined some of the solutions that he felt should be brought by the present administration and any government in the first place. So government should make the place conducive enough and the environment so, so friendly that investors can come in. And some of the investors that we know are real estate owners, so to speak, or people in the real estate sector to come in as private individuals. And we are lucky to have one person in that sector, the chief executive officer of LandWay Investment Limited Ms. Sheila OJ. Good morning and welcome to the program. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, we fear the real estate people rather than love them. And I'll tell you why. So many people have this belief that once the real estate people get into a community, they take all the houses that are affordable, build the houses that are not affordable, and kick us out into the streets. What is your, what should we believe about the real estate people rather than if this is not the notion that we should have? Well, it's definitely not the case. What you find with real estate investors and developers is that they bring value to any community that they come in. And what I mean by that is a lot of times when in certain parts, looking at certain parts of Lagos, you find that certain infrastructural things have not been put in place. And what you find is that the developers are coming in, they're setting up roads, they're bringing light, they're bringing water. And that's what increases the value of these properties or this land. And yes, I do understand the challenge of saying, okay, now it's a lot more expensive than it was. But however, look at the value that has been brought to the area vis a vis what was there before. Yeah, but we're also concerned when you're doing what you do, it's like it's affordable by only the rich in society. What do you do to cover the people who are not, who are low income earners, for instance? So I would say that first things first when it comes to Lagos, because Landway does only operates in Lagos. Lagos is not affordable. Unlike what we'd like to say is affordable housing, the land alone in Lagos is in high demand. Reason because we have very high population, we have a housing deficit. So when it comes to just the barest, which is the land where the house is built, you find that it costs quite a bit. By the time you start doing all your construction costs, and if you're looking at the way the market is at the moment, you find that, again, the price is increased. Now, how does that help with the challenge of people not being able to afford or some people not being able to afford these properties? We find that, luckily, with putting particular infrastructure in place, there are certain areas in which it's possible to put what is like a social housing program. However, to do that, there has to be what is a synergy and a partnership, like a public-private partnership with the government, where the land is either allocated or given at a very discounted rate for it to be affordable. Like I said, the barest of it all is the land, and land is not necessarily affordable. But once you can have that or you can reduce that cost, then we can then have conversations around affordable housing in a city like Lake or State. So what are deliberate policies, if you may, that government needs to put in place to make sure it's conducive enough for you to invest and for the people to enjoy? I would say, maybe not really speaking to what's policy, but more of having more dialogue with a lot of these investors, a lot of the private sector who are putting in their sweat blood and tears into this. More dialogues to understand what the challenges are and in understanding what the challenges are, knowing in what ways that they can support. And if it's through policy, if it's through supports, if it's through better infrastructure, just knowing what can be done and how we can collaborate together to ensure that the average Nigerian can actually afford a home of their own. So what are some of these challenges that the real estate investors have to face all the time? Oof, it's quite a lot. I would say first things first, because, you know, as you're talking about government, it's also a lot of changing policies into regulatory, a lot of regulatory standards that need to be addressed. But even just looking at the economic situation at the moment, I mean, it's no surprise with what's going on with FX and inflation. You find that your cost of building has increased just between, say, in the last few months between September and now, the cost has increased by almost 25 percent. Because again, we are heavily dependent on importation. So quite a lot of things that need to be done to finish these houses and finish these units are imported. And so you find yourself evicted into that. In addition to that, you then have labor costs under rise as well. You also have the cost of even your transportation and your logistics of moving one thing from one side to the other. So for real estate investors and real estate developers at the moment, it's a very, very interesting time for the industry as a whole, where you want to do so much more, but you find yourself having rising costs on the daily. And because of those rising costs, you are either forced to have conversations with your clients to say, this is what we can do. Or in some cases, you are looking for other strategies of how you can hedge against this rising costs. It looks scary, especially for the person who is trying to go into real estate for the first time. What advice would you give to this kind of people who intend to enter into that sector? Well, it depends. And when you say enter into the sector, they're two different ways. So you're either entering as an investor or you're entering as a developer. So I would look at being as an investor. Regardless of the challenges, land is still, or real estate is still a form of investment that appreciates over time. Therefore, it's something that you can definitely look into. So look, do a lot of your research, understand the market trends, and then look into the areas in which you want to invest. I think for most people, there is the notion of, oh, I just want to invest because I'm going to end up living there. But you don't always have to do that. There's different ways where you can get property. And just looking at how the market is at the moment and understanding that there's going to be increasing demand for housing. Lagos, for instance, we have a housing deficit problem. The lake bus is big. At the same time, it's small. In the sense that we have a very large population, it's estimated that every day we have almost 2,000 people coming into Lagos from other parts of Nigeria, which means that housing is very important. If you go to specific parts of the state, you would see there's a lot of mobility, a lot of movement, and traffic is one of the ways that when you see a lot of traffic, there's a lot of people living in that particular city. And so as an investor, you can actually look into those areas. It doesn't have to be the high-ticket areas. A lot of times, people want to get the VI's and all these high, very urbanized areas, but you can actually go into the prairie urban and almost rural areas and invest in those areas because in another year or so, the value of property in that area would have increased significantly. So I would say, yes, it is scary. However, start small, aim long. It's not something you just jump into, but it's something that if you have a proper strategy, you know what your budget is, and you also look at what the trends are, you do very well in the industry. So these are the things to look out for when you're thinking about viable options for investment. But you were talking about either coming in as an investor or as a developer. Some people may not even know the difference of that. So let's get to know what it takes or what it means to be a developer rather than an investor. So investors really can be me and you in the sense that you have the money and you're looking for where to invest your money. It's the same way you would invest in other forms of commodities. So that's what I mean about coming as an investor. However, if you are looking to build communities, which is where development comes in, you're building to communities, there's quite a lot that you need to look into. Again, number one would obviously be location. You're also looking at things like your trends and your costs as well, because the cost of the properties that you were or the units that you would have built a month ago are significantly higher now, significantly higher now than it was like a month or two months ago. So as a developer, you're more on building communities. You're more on building housing options that people would live in. However, as an investor, you're just looking to see how you can increase your gains and have maximum return on your investment on land or real estate in general. Interesting. There is talk that Lagos with the kind of population that we have should go high rather than where it is right now. So what is the reason behind Lagos not going high? Having buildings like 26-story buildings, 50-story buildings to house a lot of people and affordable buildings at that. What do you think is the reason or the challenge? So I'm unable to speak to us what the challenge is. However, I would say that when you look at just the overall landscape of Lagos as a city, my questions would be are we able to even do that? I know a lot of times there is the assumption that yes, we should be like all the other metropolitan cities we find across the world. However, for us as Lagos, we can have some parts of Lagos that can do that. However, in other parts of Lagos, it's not something that is not going to be possible. But like I said, it's not something because I am not in terms of construction. That is more of a construction question. Because my technical expertise is not to what's construction. I won't be able to speak to why is it impossible. I think it's something that I should take up with my team. Why is it not possible for us to build more, I would say skyscrapers or more of properties that can house more people? Yeah, I wasn't thinking in terms of you being a constructor or something. I was thinking maybe there's a deliberate policy against high-rise buildings like that that you have. For instance, if you want to develop an area and you say I want a skyscraper in this place, the government could tell you, we don't do that in Lagos because of X, Y, Z. So I thought you had information regarding that. Okay, go ahead. There is also this thing you call fractional ownership. We need to understand what that means. Okay, so fractional ownership is looking for the best way to break it down is investment in the smallest form when it comes to real estate. We introduce fractional ownership as we find that a lot of people want to invest in real estate, but they struggle because they do not have the bulk funds. We just had the conversation around affordable, so they don't have the funds to be able to do their 200, 300 or 500 square meters, which would be a plot or full plot in some cases, 600 square meters. However, with fractional ownership, you are able to invest one square meter at a time, which means that you're looking to buy a fraction of a particular area and as time goes on, you can continue to get more square meters. And when you get to a particular number, maybe 300 or 500, you can convert that into actually having a plot, which we used to build or you could decide to sell. And when you look at places like Lagos, I imagine if we had something like that in Banana Island, where Banana Island was set up, a lot of us would be millionaires by now. Reason because you're able to buy shit and then you take it from there. Now, this is not a brand new concept. It's something that is quite known in other parts of the world. However, for us, Landry has introduced it through its sister company on land, just making sure that it's making real estate investments accessible to everyone. I really don't understand buying one square meter at a time and then you're buying another time when you have the means. How is it possible? I'm just thinking about the location. I'm buying one square meter here on Banana Island and another one in Equi and all that. Is that how it works? No. So what it is, is we have, so using Landry as an example, we have an array of properties in different areas. Now, as an investor, say yourself or anyone else who's interested, you can say, look, I have a spare figure, 200, 500,000. And I'd really like to invest in real estate. However, this money cannot get me the kind of property that I want. Or however, I want to be able to increase my income and make my money work for me. And so it's more of your capital gain and a higher return on investment. Just like I said earlier, real estate or real estate is one of the surest ways of investment. So what it does with fractional ownership is it gives you and I the opportunity to invest one square meter at a time, right? And what I mean by that is you can say, okay, say one of our products, one of our properties, it's one square meter is about 200,000 Naira. So you start off with 200,000 Naira, and then the next time you do another one square meter and you just continue. And in a few years, you're able to resell and get a return. So think of it when it comes to fractional ownership in real estate, think of it of how you would trade in your stock market, right, where you buy shares of a company. And then after a while, you're able to sell. It's very much, you know, not exactly the same concept was very much close to it in the sense that you can buy square meters and you are either buying with the goal of converting to build in future or with the goal of reselling in future. And I hope that that helps. Okay, yeah, it helps. But if I want more information, I'll have to contact you to have a sit down for one hour to explain it to me. But okay, here's the thing. Let's say I had a father that has had a house and now I am in that house. And I do not have money to develop that house to the standards that is required now. But I do not want to lose that house at the same time. How does the real estate developers or investors come in so that they can develop my house? I will still be a house owner, but I may not need to pay everything for that house. If you understand me, do you have a package like that in real estate? So I would say real estate. So you have your JVs, your joint ventures, which you can do with your real estate developers. And basically what that means is you own the property. So you own the land. And you want to just give an example. You want to build, say, a block of flats, or you would like to build a block of flats, or you would like to build a bunch of detached houses in that property. What you would do is have an agreement with the developers where they develop. So the land remains yours, right? They develop. And then you then have what is like a sharing, like a profit sharing. You can keep one of the properties. However, you're also able to earn income from the other ones that are there. It's something that is very well known in the space where a lot of people who have land are able to have partnerships or joint ventures with developers. And developers typically look out for such opportunities because it means that they don't have to buy the land. But they are able to have it. It's just, you know, it's a partnership that works. But they are able to build. And the person who owns the land is also able to get value and as well as increased income from that land as well. Okay. This is funny. But let me just ask you, in Lagos we have what is really scary to investors in that sector, the Omoniles. How do you cope with that? A private person can buy a plot and you are not sure, or even after building, you are not sure that it belongs to you. How do you navigate those waters? So I would say for us as land where there is a lot of, we do a lot of engaging, there's a lot of collaboration, a lot of conversation with Omonile. However, I would also say that if you're buying any property, it's important to do your due diligence. And in doing your due diligence is before you put your money down, ask questions. Also go to the proper ministries to get information on that particular property. And in terms of ownership and documentation as well. We find that a lot of times people just buy based on the words of what has been given without actually doing their due diligence. So on that front, I would say, please do your due diligence, it's very, very important. On the other front, in engaging with Omonile, there is a lot of conversation that goes on. I cannot go into details when it comes to that, but I know for us at Landway, we as much as possible, we've had situations where we had a particular property and then the Omonile came and said, look, they're the ones who own this property. And we almost had to re-engage them as well. So I would say for us as an organization and for a lot of other organizations like ours, there's a lot of dialogue that goes on with the Omonile to ensure that everything is done well. But most of all, for if you as a private person would like to get a property, please do your due diligence and please get information from the appropriate ministries and ensure that the land, the documentation on that land is actually correct. I'm concerned about the fact that Omonile may be just an Nigerian thing. You may not find that in the UK, for instance, or the America. And is it a product of bad policy or we should just leave it to chance? Can't the government do something about it? And if they can, what can they do? I believe that the government can do something about it. Again, it's a lot of engagement that needs to be done, a lot of dialogue that needs to be done. I think what also needs to be done with regards to the Omonile is also for them to see what the value that is being brought to their communities. They are being protective of their communities if that's the way to put it. However, if they are not being engaged accordingly and they're not being seeing the value of what is being brought, we would continue to have this challenge that we have with Omonile and what you call land grabbers. So I would plead with the government to see how can we have more of these sessions and also for the government to intervene and also to ensure that in terms of documentation of these properties, it's done right. We find that sometimes there are certain gaps when it comes to documentation, which is what leaves room for things like this to happen. So with better processes and with better dialogues with all stakeholders involved, we should be able to solve this challenge that we have. The process of acquiring land and having a deed for it, Sea of O for instance, it's so long, I hear the governor has to sign. Yes, so there is the governor's consent, however there are all the documentation that you can have and I think that's another area where we also plead with the government to see how we can make this process seamless. It's a lot that needs to be changed in our policies on that particular front. And then whenever I have the opportunity I like to unravel some of the jargon of any profession. Now I hear something like ISIM, let me get to understand what that is and what the futures are that mark that kind of a package out. Sorry, could you please, I didn't get you, could you please repeat that question? ISIMI, there. So what are the innovative features that we should know about what you call ISIMI? I don't know what that is. ISIMI is what you mean. So ISIMI Lagos is our... You call it ISIMI? ISIMI, yes ISIMI. Okay ISIMI. Yes ISIMI, yes ISIMI is a word. Okay go ahead. Yes, it means rest. So ISIMI Lagos is our development over in the equity access. It's right next to the Lagos film city that was just recently launched or the groundbreaking ceremony for the Lagos film city. And ISIMI is a wellness and a sustainable city. We want to take people back to the very beginning, when I say very beginning, as they take you back to live with nature and that is to encourage people to be able to live in an environment where there is better air, where they are able to farm, where they are able to have that wholesome living. Lagos is a very, very busy place and there's so much going on. And in a lot of ways it's great as a metropolitan city. However, what ISIMI provides is a looking for the right words. What ISIMI provides is an area where you are able to sort of disconnect from the hustle and bustle of Lagos. Is it some kind of result that you're doing here? It's not just a resort. It is actually a city on its own. Now, if you want to call it a resort, fine, but it's not just a resort. It is a wellness city and that's what ISIMI is. It is really just a city where you are able to be in touch with nature. And then there are quite a number of things in terms of the things that will be made available in ISIMI. We have the polo, we have the polo club, we have golf as well. So it's really just making people be in touch with nature and bringing rest, a place of rest and that's really what ISIMI is about. Okay, well, ISIMI here we come. All right, Michelle, I would like to say thank you to you for coming on the program this morning and telling us about real estate. We do hope that every house will be affordable to all of us in the nearest future. Thank you so much for being a part of our program. Thank you. Okay, we've been talking with Ms. Sheila OJ. She is the Chief Executive Officer of Land Way Investment Limited and we're looking at real estate. Now that we have a challenge in housing in Nigeria, when the government does its own part, what can the private sector do? And that's where she filled in. And we're very glad that we were able to have her on the show this morning. And this eventually is where we wrap it up on the show. My name is Nyam Gul Agadji. Thank you for being a part of this breakfast today. And on behalf of the entire team, I also say thank you. Up next is the news brief.