 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein today. We are having another killer crossover edition with the sit down podcast Jeff Nadie of barstool sports. He is a man of many talents, a diversely skilled individual, just as good at picking college basketball games. As a as a pro tout, then he is breaking down organized crime and we've kind of built this, you know, the avengers squad or you know the Justice League. If we're going to compare it to the to the comic books but combining forces and and tackling OC in America. Jeff, thanks for coming aboard again. Always good to come on Scott I always I always am happy when you asked me to come on or we kind of are able to work together will we seem like we put out some great content so happy to be back there's a lot going on as as usual in the world of crime. Yeah, we're both really passionate about I think anything we do but especially this stuff and Jimmy, my normal co host the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto is off for the week. Jeff was was kind enough to I mean he would have jumped on with us if Jimmy was here anyway but it was kind enough to jump on and kind of co host co horses with me. I want to do this episode. I always try to thread that needle between what's going on today and tying it into maybe some interesting history. We've been talking a lot about Mikey the nose mancuso, the boss of the banana crime family in New York lately. It started, you know in the New York press in the summer with internal dispute that led to a funeral parlor brawl. I've been reporting. Over the last couple months that he's stalking his former acting boss, looking to kill him there was a shooting in Long Island back in December, yada yada yada we don't need to, you know, beat that dead horse. It's been reported we've talked about it, but Jeff did a great interview in the last week or two with a new member of kind of the YouTube content. O. C. World, Dom Sicali, who was a high ranking member of the bananas at right hand. Emissary best friend of Vinnie gorgeous bassiano and was working directly with Mikey mancuso in the early to mid 2000s. And Dom has started a YouTube channel in one of the first pieces of content that he rolled out I think it might have been the first piece of content. We had known about this few that had developed between Mikey mancuso and Vinnie basiano basiano was kind of fashion himself the new john Gotti in the 2000s. When he got locked up he named mancuso who's acting boss. And there was some tension. We didn't really know the specifics of it. Dom Sicali really added a lot of color and told us that there was a murder contract that was supposed to be executed on Valentine's Day 2005 would have been New York's version of the Valentine's Day of the year. And never got carried out because see Cali was taken off the streets. Eventually he turned a cooperator. So Jeff, you interviewed him last week. I kind of want to deep dive this mancuso basiano feud that might have short circuited mancuso's rise to boss before it even started. Talk about that interview and I know you didn't talk about that specifically but just talk about getting a feel for Tom. I think the most glaring thing I've noticed with Dominic is there's no love lost between him and Michael. And that's been kind of anytime you hear Dom discuss the bananas he always seems to try to find and add mancuso back into it. I know and what I've learned Dom actually wrote a book with Ed Scarpo several years ago. And in the book, he actually talks about how at one point Michael kind of made it clear he didn't really want to take orders from Dom when Vincent gets locked up. Because that was kind of the goal to Cali told me in the interview that he never really wanted to be made he didn't have a dream to be made. But Vinnie really pushed for it because he liked Dom he trusted Dom and if Dom had to be the kind of the actor for him on the street he was, you know, he could kind of believe in that he could do it. And I hear that Michael was a power tripping lunatic didn't want to take orders from anyone. And, you know, there's definitely some ardent beat between the two, which is still there today and he bad mouth so many chance he gets. And, you know, there's clearly no love lost. But yeah, he could have. And I think, as you know, I think it would probably have been a better idea if it would have happened for the banana crime family because they would add a lot more steady leadership in a Joe or Vinnie Badalamenti or whoever is the boss. I think it's pretty clear that Michael Mancuso is a real viability. And what's interesting is that Bessiano is the one who opened the door for Mikey Mancuso to become an acting capo and then to become acting boss. So, you know, Scott, I wanted to kind of point that out as well. I mean, Dom essentially kind of foreshadowed that Vinnie was the guy that kind of and I think this would have been Dom's position if Dom wouldn't have cooperated and was on the street it would have been him instead of Mancuso and he just had to kind of go with Mancuso because that's who he was on the street. You know, John Sparito is in jail. There's a couple of other guys in jail that he would have probably elevated over over him. But Dom almost foreshadowed that Vinnie still somewhat controls them in a way. I don't think he was actually saying that. But would it surprise you at all if, you know, Dom or if Mancuso is still going to Vinnie on certain things? Well, I think I actually think having some better understanding of what was going on between them. It's an interesting question to ask about how much sway Bessiano still holds from behind bars. He definitely seems to be taking this life sentence in stride as opposed to a lot of these gangsters where you see pictures coming out from behind where they're snarling or they look they've lost a lot of weight or they've gained a lot of weight or they've lost their hair their hairs gone gray. Pictures have come out over the last handful of years of Vinnie and he looks like a million bucks. He's smiling. He seems to have made connections with a lot of different. I think the thing that I've learned about Vincent Baciano, obviously, I don't know him personally, but he does seem to command a room. He's just a born leader, it seems like. He has a lot of swagger, a lot of, and from what Cicali talked about, I mean, he was a very personable guy. People liked him. He joked around. He had a good time. I think he was just likeable around a lot of people. And, you know, again, I think he had a real problem because as we know, and as you know, the Bonanno family in the 2000s was really pummeled quite honestly. I mean, most of them went to prison. I've said before, I think Savai Talley is the most destructive witness of all time due to the fact of who he put away. I mean, every single person at a high level in the Bonanno crime family either cooperated or went to prison. Yeah. And if you're playing the Monday morning quarterback game, and this this came in, this came into the court record from from from Don Cicali's testimony. Messino was being told by Bassiano and other people, kill your brother-in-law, kill your underboss, Savai Talley. And I think that was Messino's plan. And it just either there wasn't a time sensitivity and they thought they could wait a little bit longer to rock them to bed or or I think it was something that they were going to do but never got a chance to do. And if they would have acted quicker to your point, it might have not led to the domino effect that it did. Yeah. According to some of the testimony of Cicali, there were three people at one point that they were soliciting to kill a girlfriend, an individual who slapped Cicali's, I believe, father or uncle and Savai Talley. Right. And that's something that we continue to learn. I mean, there were a lot of people that hated Savai Talley that didn't want him in power. I know Tony Erso hated Savai Talley and Savai Talley hated Tony Erso. There was a lot of issue between them. I don't think anyone quite respected Sal. I'm sure there were a few but not many. But yeah, I've learned a lot and you sent me the testimony and reading it because Dom's a guy that kind of disappeared for a while and we didn't hear from him for a long time. And then he's kind of popped up out of nowhere. And I'll tell you, he's a really interesting character. He's colorful for sure. I think he's going to have a really good channel as long as he just kind of stays on task. But yeah, he definitely doesn't like Michael. But I get to ask you, Scott, who do you put in as boss? I mean, everybody was off the street. Right. Well, and I think people said that. And even frankly for Vinny, he rose fast in terms of from Kapo to acting boss. I think that Chicali is a interesting case study in 21st century mafia, the early 21st century when you're talking about the mafia and the difference between how it was even maybe 10 years before that but definitely 30, 40, 50 years before that. And then what was going on from, you know, let's say the 2000s or late 90s till the day where a guy like Chicali was someone probably in an earlier era would have been made earlier. But he didn't he didn't want the button. He was connected to a lot of different people and a lot of different families. He was very capable. He had a lot of respect and had some versatility and what he could do in terms of being an earner and being a hitter. And I didn't know I've learned a lot of this more recently. I always I always knew he was connected to basciano but what I've learned is that he, his, his entree to the bananas came through Anthony and delicado Bruno and delicado, who he met and became friends with when he was serving a prison sentence for drug dealing in a second degree murder of which he today still says he was set up on. Yeah, he got set up by agenda agenda base associate, who was a drug dealer for years. Right. Now, go ahead. Real quick, that's that's kind of something I wanted to bring up and that's a good point by you. You know, he, he was around some big people. I mean, I think the winner of the mafia for a while in terms of who he was running into when he was running into them. The winner I think in all this and looking at the testimony is muscarella in the Genoveses who was had the wherewithal to say you know what, go ahead, go hang with the bananas, because now you look what happened, the whole hierarchy of the Genovese crime that could have been caught if he hangs around with the bananas also are just talking about case studies and you know where where I were my interest in research gravitates to the most dysfunctional group. You know here in Detroit my home base. They're like this picture of functionality over the years, which is great you can chronicle it like a couple times but it's, it's so functional that it, it, it kind of undermines reporting. So, when you get a family like the bananas. They're just the roller coaster of that family starting back in the 60s with Joe Bonanno and what he had tried to do, moving into the 70s with a Carmine Galante. Then you know with the Donnie Brasco thing and the family basically being not basically they were kicked out of the commission. They were a outsider in some ways for a while Joe Massino rises and the family literally from the basement to the penthouse and by the late 90s they're kind of the cream of the crop. When it comes to the mafia, and then it all falls apart again, when when Massino becomes the first ever godfather in New York to turn government. Look, I get Joey Massino cooperated we all know that, but we have to look at as a boss and you and I and RJ had a conversation. So, as a boss, he was very effective, right through a lot of rough waters, got him out to the other side. I still reference back to that old wiretap involving a Baldy Longo and the Genevieve family who said, you know, he was talking to cookie Deerson he said, there are two families that run New York, this family and Joe's family. And that was at the height of, and that was after the Goddy regime had kind of ended and they were strong, you know, and all of a sudden it just fell apart. And by tally did what he did and, you know, I think, you know, obviously you're right they're kind of a picture of, of highs and a lot of loaves to and Massino just made you know I agree with you I think it's hard to dismiss the fact that he became the first ever to run New York Godfather to cooperate but putting that aside, his 15 or 15 to 20 year run as boss goes down, you know, in my opinion is one of the all time great, you know, Godfather 10 years in the five history the five families, and especially when you had to build that family back, you know, from the ashes. And he made a couple and this is just I think this is just, this is history this is what happens you know, the kind of I call it the fine line theory. There's such a huge, or there's a small difference between what ends up being you know, these, these huge differences and in the way that that fate, you know, twirls and whatever direction. And, you know, with Massino, he made a couple fatal flaws late in his late in his run, and they came back to bite him in terms of his brother in law and his underboss, and then really, you know, he, and then this brings us back to Bacchiano Mancuso. Bacchiano, and she Callie and Chicali as well, that they went, Bacchiano went from a mid level player in the family to a major player in the family in a short period of time, and Chicali went from someone that didn't have a button. To somebody that before he even had his button was running with the biggest players in the family got his button and was practically the underboss of the family within a year, whether it was a name or in the way that the family was being run. I think the one problem and Chicali talked about this in kind of some of the negative aspects of Joey Massino is he elevated a lot of people that were not cut out for the positions that they had right. You know, bringing in people that probably didn't need to be made, but he just made them to make them, you know, elevating people that, you know, probably shouldn't have been in the positions they were in, you know, certain captains and people like that. And, you know, I think all to me that could have cost them too. But yeah, it's, it's amazing in the 2000s how quick some of those guys elevated right, but they had to because it was a sign of the sign of the times. I mean, you look at all the rats they had and whether it was Copa or Tarta Leon or Vitali or or Cantarella. I mean, they had a hitter after hitter. Co-operate, you know, and it's the people that came out on the other side. Right. I mean, that's why I'll continue to say Scott and I'm curious what you think. I mean, obviously I know Sammy Gravano was a constructive witness and Michael Scars and all these other guys. But when you're looking at sentences, what people got, you look at Vitali, 24 defendants got 20 or more years because of Vitali. He put like 55 people in different families. That's a lot. That's a high percentage. He was really brutal for the mob and, you know, was very effective. He earned his cooperation. So let's, let's kind of go back and give some backstory on Bacciano, Mancuso. Mancuso and Bacciano both have roots in the Bronx. Mancuso comes from the old purple gang, which was the East Harlem Bronx kind of, I think saying JV mob is actually not doing them. I think they're more, they were more of a drug gang slash hit squad that had a lot of guys that became big guy mobsters. I look at them more as a farm team. I mean, I think they're very similar to like the Giannini crew. A lot of Giannini kids became, you know, whether it's Guzzo or Pipitone, they all became made guys. Yeah, I think they're a farm team. You know, yeah, but Mancuso was according to the government. Now he's a two time convicted murderer. One was a second degree with his wife. Another one was related to something we'll talk about in a second with Vinny Bacciano. But according to the government, he made his bones in the 70s and was responsible for quite a few hits during his time as a purple ganger, and then went to prison for the death of his wife, which happened in an argument. And he dropped her off at the hospital, went and did I think 12 years, 14 years or so. I think it was 12 years came out in the mid 90s and got a button. Bacciano goes all the way back to the to the three coppers that you saw in Donnie Brasco. He was a young guy that was coming up under Big Trini, a Dom Trincarea. The guy, if you see Donnie Brasco was the big, big fat one that they had trouble killing because he was so big. That was Vinny Bacciano. You know how he got connected with Trincarea? There's an old story that as a child, he essentially helped a young kid in the neighborhood that was being bullied and it was someone related to Trincarea. And, you know, Bacciano is interesting because he had a lot of business, man, whether it was legal or legal. And, you know, you look at how he kind of established himself in the bookmaking trade, the numbers trade. He allegedly killed his mentor, Tony Cole Colangelo, through his body on the side of a road and took it over. He was supposed to give money to the guy's wife and just say, you know what, he's gone. I'm not doing it. He comes home just waxed the kid or the guy. So, yeah, he, but he was a smart guy. He took a lot of his money, put it into hair salons and blimpy restaurants and all these different things. Got a ton of real estate. He was a big drug dealer as well, Bacciano. And I think that's where him and Mancuse so I'm sure kind of connected a little bit. They were both part of that Bronx crew that was run by the DeFilippos. So Vinny is in with the major players in the Bonanno family at a very young age. That's how he meets Bruno Indelicato, who was the son of the leader of that three copos faction, Sunny Red Indelicato. Bruno was known as Nutty, you know, as a guy that was quick tempered, had a lot of ambition, had a drug problem, and I like to throw his weight around. He was involved in the notorious assassination of Carmine Galante at a very young age. There's video of him surveillance video of him in the hours after that being congratulated by Neil De La Croche. He was in his mid 20s at that point, got up to copo status at that point with one of the youngest copos in all of New York City. So Bacciano, you know, kind of, I don't want to say hitches his trailer, but because that again that's kind of does a disservice to Bacciano but very early on when he's in his 20s. He's one of the people that are either have reached the highest levels of the family or being fast tracked towards that. And that brings us into the 90s, where to Cali meets Bruno, who's in prison Bruno Indelicato was in prison for the Galante assassination, and meets to Cali. And when they get out. It's interesting if you read his testimony. He goes and meets Indelicato and Bacciano was the first time he's meeting Bacciano. They had both got out of prison. And it was just kind of like a sake like say hi to each other if you need anything give me a shout. And then a couple days later, just fate brings them together at rails, the famous Italian restaurant Harlem, and that sparks this relationship that starts with him and Indelicato and then eventually becomes him and Bacciano and he gets very close to Bacciano. He is not allowed to be made right away, because he had a drug conviction, Massimo didn't want wanted anybody that had a drug conviction to wait at least I think six years five six years. So Mancuso gets made. When he first comes out of prison but but Chicago isn't made until I think 2003. And Bacciano becomes couple of the Bronx crew. And as Massino is going away before he flips or before anybody knows he flips. Bacciano kind of forces his way into the acting couples. I mean he gets the approval of eventually gets the approval of Massino, but it looks like he. He's almost retroactive like he assigned him on the boss and but now I'm going to go make sure it's okay with Joe Massino and Joe Massino says it's okay. So now I'm officially the boss. When he also was in the Bronx, which one of the reasons Patty from the Bronx is made a capo is because Joe Massino says we have nobody in the Bronx as a capo. We're going to make Patty the guy up there. Patty goes away in the George Canada thing and they have a power vacuum there. I think he kind of just assumes it says which according to Massino, the George the can George from Canada thing according to Massino. Mikey Mancuso played a role in the George from Canada murder in 1999. I just think you know he kind of said hey I'm going to take the bull by the horns like Joe's coming up here anyway he's a Queens guy. It's more Brooklyn and Queens with them. I'm kind of the next in line here you know and I think he was right because he was close with Patty and Patty was gone. So he probably would have been named acting capo anyway and then he kind of makes his way to that ruling body right. He's at the table when Tony Urso starts talking about let's kill there's rats families and you know he got when Urso goes away. Bassiano kind of names himself, the replacement and then goes to Joe Massino or uses an intermediary to go to Joe Massino, and there was some type of code. And he says to the person to tell Joe Massino to come back with, you know, 719 if it's okay for me to be boss, and the number came back 719. I believe they used to coordinate stuff through a Pringles can that's that's what I that's what I know. And they used to use this lawyer I believe his name was Tony Lee. I believe his name was Tommy Lee, Tommy Lee, right. Yeah, he got jammed up for for kind of being involved over. So best you know goes from couple of the Bronx crew to acting boss for Joe Massino at this time. He names Mikey Mancuso, couple his his replacement as couple of the Bronx crew. Vinnie last a year on the street. It seemed like what he was doing. In terms of circling the wagons and getting kind of, I think Massino at this point is locked up. They don't know people don't know that he's flipped but there was kind of a morale, a low in a morale around the family, Vinnie kind of inject some energy changes some of the protocol I know that he was. He was eager to bring back the traditional making ceremony. He felt like it had lost its meaning because Massino was so worried about someone, you know, a raid that they would find the gun and the knife so it was more of like, you come here today and you're a May guy and I'll go home and Vinnie wanted it to be very a lot of patentry and, and that and that endeared him to a lot of people, but then Vinnie gets locked up. And this is where the problem start to happen. So he names Mancuso is acting boss and Chicali becomes couple of that crew, but is the man that's relaying messages is between Bassiano in prison and Mancuso on the street. And very quickly, they start to butt heads and Mancuso does like you mentioned earlier doesn't want to take orders from Chicali even though the orders are coming from Bassiano. And what's more important to Bassiano and who made more money. Dom, right. So Dom's always going to be indebted. You know, Dom's always going to be the guy, you know, hey, where's my envelope and Dom talked about that he said that's one of the reasons he cooperated he said they he'd given all this money to them and then they still weren't willing to tell them out but yeah I think Mancuso kind of in a weird way kind of was cut from the same cloth of Bassiano where he wanted to be in charge. He was made to be in charge so why wasn't he making decisions. He had to go through Chicali he didn't like that. And I think he kind of envied him in a way and then the Pizzola thing happens which Right. Well, I think first the Santoro thing happens and then the Pizzola thing so let's go let's let you know people don't know let's fill them in. So, around the same time period, early 2000s and mid 2000s, Frank Santoro was a junkie basically they had gotten into some beef with Vinny's Bassiano's kid and threatened to murder Vinny's kid or kidnap Vinny's kid. Vinny wanted to make an example out of him. And what's interesting to me is Vinny's, I believe he was a copo if not a cop or he wasn't acting boss yet I believe he was a copo at that point and he wants to go out and do this hit himself. And him and Chicali and Anthony and Delacato go out and they go find Frank Santoro and they lay on him and then they eventually get him walking his dog. Then Vinny Bassiano gets locked up. And Mancuso was involved in that as well by the way. I'm not exactly sure how but he's. They had a they originally were going to hit him at one point and it didn't go down. And then Delacato wasn't there the second time around and Anthony Donato was there. Right. And they brought him in like a park with his dog because Chicali's father kind of fed them information that hey he walks that information that he said he was living in Pelham Bay and he was actually living. Right. And throughout the night. Yeah. And they spot him and then they find him in this park and that was that. And then there's the Randy Pozzolo hit, which Vinny was wanted to make examples of people early in his regime and kind of set a tone. Who knows what would have happened if he had allowed to have a longer run and had been free for longer. How that would have played out. But Pozzolo was this want to be a guy that was very eager to get a button. A guy that had a short temper and liked to brag and boast and eventually they brought him in close to them. And they thought they could control him. And but they knew that he was kind of crazy. And then he starts getting drunk and shooting his mouth off that he know you know that he knows how to run the family better than the guys that are running the family he knows how to do murder is better than the guys. He said he was the only killer in the family. Right. And he was also doing some construction work on Vashiano's house and bit off a little more than he could chew in terms of craftsmanship. When Vashiana talked about it, he said that he act stupid all the time. He's always acting stupid and he's a liability. So he orders both of those hits without Massino's approval, even though Massino at that point had he had flipped. I believe at least by the Pozzolo time he had flipped. But in traditional protocol, Vashiana was supposed to clear that with Massino the first one Santoro he says to him. Well I needed to do it because this guy was threatening to kidnap my kid. It could have happened any second. I had to act immediately with Pozzoli just says the kid needed the kid needed to eat a bullet and this is going to put a scare in everybody and trust me I know what I'm doing. But it was retroactive. Right. And that's where they and Joe Massino was taping. Right. And that's where they use, you know, the young kid Ace, who was A.L.O. Yeah, who was the son of a guy, a drug dealer from Queens, Ridgewood kid, Giannini kid, you know, he's kind of a free agent and he kind of slots in with them and he does the hit alongside several others. So that was that. So Mancuso is refusing to take orders from Vashiano. Chacalli is saying that is telling Vashiano that he'll take orders when it comes to money and business, but he will not take orders when it comes to personnel, you know where guys are are being situated, who's being promoted to what there was an agreement with, with Louis DeChico, Louis Electric, where Vashiano wanted him up to Capo and Chacalli comes and tells Mancuso and Mancuso basically, I won't make him until Massino tells me I can make him. Lot of confusion. Right. And there actually came to a point where Chacalli brings Louis Electric to Mancuso and says, I am naming him a Capo. Mancuso shakes his hand, says congratulations, but it's still not official. I got to check with my people. And Chacalli is telling Vashiano in prison through intermediaries that he feels like a sitting duck, that he feels Mancuso is going to move on him, push Vashiano out of power, kill Chacalli, and take over the whole family for himself, which he did in 2013, but the belief was that they were going to, that he was going to do it in 2005. And that leads us to this assassination attempt that never. The whole thing is, I'm going to get to him before he gets to me, which Joey Massino did in years before with, with the three Capos thing. So yeah, that's the thing, it's kill or be killed. You know, you got to take care of him before he takes care of you. You know, it's pretty simple. The plan was to get him on Valentine's Day, February 14 2005. It started to plan it in, I think around Christmas, early January. Chacalli gets picked up, I think in late January that never goes off, but the plan was to get him coming out of his girlfriend's house. Who also kind of plays into some stuff that's been going on in the last decade or so, my politics wise, Mancuso was with the ex-wife for of a Lucchese soldier named Joey Relay, and Mancuso ended up eventually getting into kind of a love triangle with a former purple gang friend of his, Michael Melvish. Yeah, he's a lot of issues with women. Yeah, so this is the woman and the issues didn't come to a head until 2012, I think when Mancuso had Melvish beaten for the fact that he wouldn't stay away from this woman. And back in 2004 or five, her husband had gone away to prison. Apparently Joey Relay is a guy that could very easily in the next decade or so become a boss or under boss, but back then he was just a young soldier and Yeah, Old Tanglewood Boys, and they were going to get Mancuso coming out of it. They knew that he went there every afternoon for lunch and afternoon delight, and they were going to get him coming out of there. They actually put together a hit team. I know PJ Pesoto was part of it, who eventually flipped as well. But it's interesting how close they got to killing Mancuso and Mancuso a verge that has to go to prison for his role. And I believe it's a Santoro hit. Was it Pesolo? No, it was the Pesolo hit, okay. Not 15 years. Confusing him. Goes away for 15 years, but when he's in there, he's appointed official boss in 2013 and that brings us to where we are today. But it's interesting just to kind of look back on that almost 20 years ago. And in a fate would have fallen in a different direction. Mikey Mancuso might not be with us right now. And his run to the boss's throne might have been. Or down. May have not been with us either. Yeah. So, you know, keep an eye on what's going on here at the OG podcast, we're always on top of this and we're keeping an eye on what's going on in New York right now with Mikey Mancuso and the Camarano brothers. And I, you know, there's been some speculation, I believe, out in the ether about why this isn't being covered by some other people in New York. And, you know, all I say is I stand by the reporting and I'm confident that at least some of these specifics that I've reported will come out in court documents in the next six months to a year. So we'll see Mikey Mancuso right now is on the verge of being sent back to prison for violating his supervised release. So there's a lot more to be written on that story, but let's let's just change gears as we as we wind down the show and talk a little bit about some stuff that is, you know, non Italian mafia OC. Let's start to start talking about a couple of things that are, you know, huge headline grabbers in the news right now. First, the golf cartel is in the news right now for all the wrong reasons on this side of the border. For Americans were kidnapped last week, two of them were killed in a border city, Texas, the Brownsville, Texas borders. Yeah. And it looks like the guy that the authorities are holding responsible for this. They call him a camera. Yeah, so he hasn't been arrested. He's been on the run for a while. There's there's a two and a half million dollar peso reward on him. Essentially, he's from a group called Los Aclones, which is an armed wing of the golf cartel has several arm wings, Los Metro, Los Rejos, Los Aclones, Grupo, Scorpion, they have several. The Ciclones are an old offshoot of Tony Tormenta, who is Osial Cardenas, his brother, essentially the godfather of the golf cartel. That was their arm doing and they have ran Matamoros for years. And he has been known to do this sort of thing recently. There was actually a video I tweeted at about two weeks ago, where they've done a massive purge of criminals in Matamoros they nailed down six buyers and sellers of crystal meth. A couple of weeks ago. And they're essentially saying that they're cleansing Matamoros of street crime, whether it's Haitian migrants robbing people, and they actually talked about they're getting sick and tired of migrants robbing people. And I think what happened here is they assume these individuals were migrants of some sort and they were either drug smugglers or robbing people. And as you know, Scott, down there it is shoot first and ask questions later. The problem is, I think once they got to the car and several people were hit and this woman screaming that we're Americans, what are you doing? I think they realized we fucked up here pretty quick and I think they abandoned the ship pretty quick. They have one individual in custody who is just some young kid who was probably look out and they're going to pin it on him. But this goes on all the time. I mean, any border town has checkpoints, and you're going to be extorted, and you're either going to pay or you're not going to pay and you're going to have a problem. So this group, Cyclones, they've run Matamoros for years. And what I'm very concerned about and this is something no one's talked about in all this. I'll see how Cardenas is going to be released from federal prison in this country this year. The truth of the matter is, he ain't going to just go become a chef or something. I think that was the linchpin and the growth of that golf cartel. I mean, he was. And is the creator and the reason, we look at cartels and the paramilitary level they are now, right? That started with Osiel Cardenas creating Los Etas. So, he's a guy who is very powerful. The golf cartel doesn't get the same respect as like the Sina Loa or Cartel Lisco Nueva Hanaracion, but they own some very powerful border crossings that make a lot of money. Let's talk about how this, you know, dovetails, I guess, with the tourism industry. I'd almost, I don't want to get too into politics here, but I'd almost like to see some type of effort by the United States government to, I know you can't tell people not to go vacation in Mexico, but what's the deterrent if you're Mexico right now to but or to tighten it up as much as you can? I know that. I think the thought of them doing anything about this is it's not going to happen. No, I know it's not. I know it's not. I would like to see. I guess what I think you're saying and what what I'm saying is we have to remember medical tourism is very big in Mexico. People should know about that, that this was according to the reports these were people that had gone there for medical tourism, not vacation tours. Now I will say, and I want to make this very clear because I think with your listeners and with by listeners, I'm very upfront with there are going to be things you may not want to hear that I'm going to put out there. The truth of the matter is if you look into these individuals that were shot and sadly killed. There is a growing sentiment from what I understand in Mexico from some of the radio broadcasts some of the TV that these individuals all have drug convictions on their records in this country. In fact, someone involved was someone high level in drug trafficking and they have records proving it. So I think the current sentiment is were they actually there only for a medical procedure. That's the big question but I think that's the thought because, again, I think it's sad that people have to go down to, you know, dangerous places whether it's Columbia or Mexico to get some sort of surgery or cancer treatment or whatever. I think tourism is big in Matamoros now. And the truth is most tourist destinations cancun, Tulum, Cabo, Puerto Vallarta even are still likely fine as far as as long as you're staying on the resorts but I think it'll hurt it a little bit. I mean, I get questions all the time in DMs. Hey, should I go to spring break and it's like, yeah, I probably would but would I drive through Matamoros into the heart of Mexico to Michelle Con or something. I'd highly recommend only traveling to places you can fly to. I would not drive into anywhere in Mexico. And that's a bad mistake. Let's just finish off about another big headline grabber, the Alex Murdoch murder trial that just concluded. Jeff and I talked off, off air. And obviously, we're going to be looking at these angles because of what we do and what we're kind of what our proclivity for this type of research and reporting is. But I think there's a huge part of this story that's getting lost in the sensationalism surrounding his murdering of his wife and son but I think if you contextualize it and I was thinking about this today. It might make more sense motive wise. Maybe that's the, not necessarily motive wise but what was going through this guy's head to decide to kill his, his, his own wife and child. Because in my opinion. Well, first of all, the thing that's getting lost here is that in addition to the murder case, he's facing a drug and racketeering case. So the, the officials in South Carolina are saying that he is a drug trafficker. But beyond that, what my limited research has told me, and I've been getting fed information about this case for, I would say six months and honestly I don't know if I was doing my due diligence. But at first, I didn't really know the case that well and I dismissed it as, you know, domestic disturbances. And the more I learned about the case and the more I started to go reach back out to the people that had been trying to feed me information. This kind of new narrative started to formulate at least in my research that I think will eventually come out, you know, in core cases coming down the pike here. Is that Alex Murdoch around 10 years ago, maybe a little bit longer, broke bad. You know, did a Walter White and stop being a legitimate attorney that might have had some moral and ethical shortcomings and decided he was going to be a gangster. And if you're a gangster, and I don't think it's a coincidence that these, besides his wife and his kid, you have these other incidents that happened in 2015 and then in 2018, where people end up dead. These weren't happening earlier in his life. So I think he felt the more criminality he was involved in the more and bold and he felt the more and poverty felt. I think it's, I think it's possible and I think what you're saying is that in a way he accepted crime he was willing to protect himself from people finding out about that crime, and he's willing to do whatever he had to do to get to it and he felt emboldened because he knew that in the end, he was part of a powerful family and it'd be very hard to prove that he was a part of it and you mentioned some of the crimes that have not been solved for instance the 2015 murder of Stephen Smith it was a murder it wasn't an accident it was a murder someone killed the kid. The thought is, was that Alex Murdoch possibly maybe he finds that his son's a homosexual he doesn't want to live with that. Maybe he finds that maybe he's, maybe he's having relations with the kid, we don't really know. This is such a weird web tangled web of a guy as you said who had this prominence. I mean his family goes back to the hundred years. Yeah, they controlled both. There weren't more people asking questions about the Murdos were controlling both sides of the law in Hampton County they were the prosecutors, and they were the areas biggest defense attorneys. I don't know if you know all the also is his grandfather Alex Murdoch grandfather was indicted in a federal bootlegging case where he was providing information to moonshine, moonshiners, and he somehow skated out of it. And it was, it was, it was relieved to beat the rap but yeah the as you reported I mean you're putting out some really interesting stuff with his relation to street gangs to his yeah this cousin Eddie character. And you know, this isn't like speculation because, at least in terms of allegations. This is popping up in court files federal court files. What was reported was that the government is is contending that Murdoch and his this hillbilly co conspirator alleged co conspirator is a cousin Eddie Smith. And for them, being drug king pins, I mean there there's allegations that they were, or at a certain point they were controlling all the drugs that were going through both Hampton and county and counties, this so called low country region. But I've been told that there was also a prostitution ring and a some form of a sports gambling business book, book making sporting events, but also having like backdoor casinos and numbers. What are we saying? At Moselle, right at this Moselle property. And I think that's all that's going to come out and that there was a direct tie into the most dangerous, most notorious African American criminal organization in that area known as the Walter Borough Cowboys. And just recently or in the last couple months, two affiliates of the of those of the Cowboys group were indicted. While Murdoch wasn't indicted with them he's him and Smith come up in the indictment as the fact that these two guys were helped according to this indictment we're helping Smith and Murdoch launder money. One of the guys is first cousins and next door neighbors with the boss of the Cowboys, a guy named Kerry Broughton who goes by K black and is a 30 and is early to mid 30s right now and it's going to be getting out of prison next year. You kind of have to play connect the dots yourself and it ain't that big of a jump to get from this Kerry Broughton who was the biggest African American crime lord in in these two counties, and then make the direct line to Alex Murdoch. And also remember, in several of the documentaries put out there's a lot of foreshadowing in the fact that it's very clear that not only buster Murdoch but Alex Murdoch are very interested in gambling. They talk about gambling on the prison telephone as well as the fact that, at one point we find out that Moselle has some sort of airport, like this runway, where, which is some of the information that I was getting it was alluded to on the Netflix thing and it comes up in the these, these two cowboy affiliates in the case files. Do you buy, I mean, I'm just going to say it. Okay, do you buy the oxycodone addiction because I don't, I don't buy it at all. I don't think he's, I don't think he's addicted any drug. I mean, I think no one could do that amount of narcotics and survive. I think the entire narrative that he was broke is false. I think he was broke in the sense that he couldn't show legitimate income. I think he's making a lot of money in this other. Well, so I think another thing that people should know that played a role in the, into what I have categorized as him breaking bad was, I think he was, is, you know, he was a guy that had no problem pushing the envelope, like I said, morally and ethically, but I don't think he was ever a full fledged criminal until the last 10 years, where if you read what's been chronicled and is well known. He took some real big financial hits in the late 2000s, a lot of money he had in real estate deals that fell through. And they say that this is what led to him, you know, stealing from his clients. And I'm not doubting that, but I think there's a lot more to the story there. And I think he fully kind of pivoted to financing his life through other means. And, you know, that led to where we are today, but I think that could possibly be why he killed his wife and son. Yeah, so they were trying to unearth the fact that she was divorced. She was going to divorce him. And he didn't. I think it's clear that he had a disappointment in his younger son. Yeah. And you look at the one son. Why, if he's going to kill the whole family, why didn't he kill the whole family? Why didn't he kill the other son? You know, because he's just the sure the sheer arrogance and multiple levels of this layers of this. And yeah, it comes from having a family that's controlled that area for 100 years and being able, he's 54 years old right now so for the first half century of his life. If not more he's been able to do whatever he wants and get away with it. But to me, like the fact that this guy could in his mind think that he could meet the police and the day that this happens. And he looks crispy clean. And in the interview, he's like, yeah, I grabbed him and I try to give him CPR and I try to take their pulse. And these bodies are just, you know, torn apart by these guns, carnage is everywhere. He's meeting, he's got a white t-shirt on and tacky shorts on. And you look like you just walked out of a fashion shoot. And he's trying to convince them that he was holding his son before he died and took his pulse and none of that made any sense. I will admit though, he's quite the actor in the phone call. You know, just the way he acted. I mean, you would have thought that he had just walked in and found his son and wife dead. I mean, it's the acting job he put on was quite good. Let me ask you this. Could you, could you have not acknowledged that you lied on that? You know, they found his voice on a Snapchat and he acknowledged that he had a lot. Could he have just stuck to that lie? And maybe they could have brought up some voice. I would have said it wasn't, how can you prove that was me? Well, see, that's why I'm saying, so then he had no business taking the stand. I mean, there's zero physical evidence tying this guy to this crime. That's what I'm saying. I didn't get it. If I'm his defense attorney, I'm like, I'm going to pull myself off the case if you insist on testifying, because the only way you have a chance of walking here is if you don't get on the stand. I thought every time he opened his mouth, he screwed himself. And he didn't even, even at the end, I did not kill my wife and son, Paul, Paul, you know, like just anytime he opened his mouth, he just could not say anything that wasn't going to make him look real bad. I agree. I think he should have, I could have beat the rap. I think he could have denied and it's weird because he continues to deny that he did do this. Why admit, hey, oh yeah, I actually, I actually was there. I'm sorry I lied. I mean, that's right. It leads to doubt and then before you know it, you're fried. And I think from, again, from my limited research here, I talked to a couple people down there who told me about what his reputation was before any of this started to bubble to the surface. And at least in the legal community, he was known as lazy and entitled, but he was also known as someone that was a great orator in front of the jury that he was legendary for these very passionate emotional closing arguments. He, in my opinion, he obviously thought that he could jump on the stand and channel that and charm the jury to me. And this is the last thing I'll say about and then we'll wrap up to parallel it to another traditional organized crime case that I covered, where I almost saw the exact same thing happened and it killed him to was joy the clown Lombardo in the family secrets trial and I covered that trial is my first I was making my bones as a reporter back in 2007 and Lombardo, it was a four month trial and the first two and a half months three months of the trial. He was coming off so great there was no physical evidence time this guy to the murder that he was charged with it was 40 years before that. He's charming the jury every time he's in he's in the courtroom, because his little quirky grandpa act is playing in very small doses. But he got arrogant and thought that he could jump on the stand for three days. And that grandpa, you know that funny grandpa act would somehow neutralize him line. And it was a disaster he got on the stand and that the whole the whole rapport he had with the jury melted away in a matter of minutes. There's probably one thing you don't want to do. If you commit a crime and you're definitely guilty. You probably shouldn't get on the stand. No physical evidence. If you didn't do it. If you didn't do it. Yeah, if you didn't do it and have nothing to hide, I would definitely go to the stand because you can. You can when you're telling the truth, you can have a lot of conviction in what you're saying. It's very few people on the planet that can lie that good, right? If they did something. Yeah. Alex Murdoch can do it. And he, you're right. He should never have been anywhere near the stand. Well, Jeff, this was awesome dude. Let people know where they can find you. And obviously everyone knows about bar stool, but let everyone, you know, give them all your, your information. Yeah, you can find me on the sit down. You can search it on YouTube. It comes up quite easily. I have a podcast, same name, iTunes, Spotify, Google pods. You know, mainly mafia content, but I do do a lot of cartel stuff and I try to interview interesting people. So yeah, I mean, we kind of you and I go in lieu of kind of a lot of different things kind of talk about a lot of the same things. But you know, there are things that I may do that you don't do or vice versa. So yeah, you're one of my favorite people. As always, I always appreciate coming on here and you've been on my show a couple of times. You know, it's funny. I get people all the time you need to do something on Detroit or something. So I'm sure we'll have you on again soon. And yeah, as always, thanks for having me, Scott. Let them know about the sports gambling part too, because Jeff, I mean, I'm not going to smoke up his ass. Like handicappers in that space, Jeff's at the, you know, the top of the mountain. Yeah, I'll just kind of tell people I have some stuff coming out next week with Kyle troops. I got a new show starting on Monday involving several of my coworkers. You know, I write a lot of blogs, do a lot of shows. I post them on my Twitter account at Jeff may do. You know, and I really just kind of leave myself out there to help anybody that needs an answer on something, whether it's a game or something. I'm ready for the season and it's been a long season. But you know, once you get to this point, Scott, I mean, as you know, like I gamble from September when college football starts till mid April when Hoops ends. It's a long, it's a long haul. Yeah. But I think there's a there's a beautiful future between the OG and the sit down. We love combining forces to give great content and Jeff, you bring the thunder every time that you come on here. Well, I think you and I are passionate about this thing and it's rare. I know in the mob space, it's very rare outside of people that were in that world to find folks that a know what they're talking about. And B have a passion for it because if you have a passion for something, you're going to put a lot of time into it. And I know you do. And I try to as well. And I, I know for me, I have some ideas and I've kind of run them by you. So I think that we're kind of in a way of the future. So I appreciate you always. In terms, you know, in terms of your Detroit reporting, I mean, or not your were Detroit reporting. I mean, in terms of anything that would be, you know, interested in your audience in kind of real time here, you know, and we could definitely do something on this if you're interested. Michael Francis, the famous mafia prince that came to town last week and met with the FBI and was doing interviews on local media stations around here telling everybody he was meeting with the FBI to give them his insight on the Jimmy Hoffa case. So we'll see where that goes. I don't put a lot of weight. I will say one thing as we end on Michael. I don't know who runs his shop. Oh, he's great. He's the I believe in this. Yeah, whoever does that is really good. I mean, because you look at him compared to, I'm not going to bring his name of the other guy that has a big channel. Yeah. I mean, it's night and day as far as what they do, what they're told to do, what they shouldn't be doing that they are doing. He's very good with that. He has a lot of people strong around him that put him in good spot. So he's got this thing down to a science and, and I'm not trying. He, his heart's in the right place. I don't want it to come off and I talked to him about this when he came in town. I don't want to, it to sound like I'm trying to dismiss or marginalize him wanting to contribute. And I know that just like a lot of these people. Even if what they're coming to, to say isn't true. They believe in their heart of hearts that it needs to be cold. So, as long as there's not someone out and there have been people like this to out trying to con you live on my channel. He's not trying to kind of anybody believes that someone told him that he trusts that know that he thinks knows this and he's passing the information on my channel to sit down. That's something I try to do. I try to out these charlatans that come into this genre and pretend that they were, you know, Anthony or Lucky Luciano's nephew and those kind of people. I'm just not going to allow it and you got to police a little bit. But yeah, Michael is got a good thing he's doing and I don't know what he knows about the Jimmy Hoffa. But that's what I'm saying. Like I'm not trying to like be dismissive of it saying like, Oh, what does Mike Francis know about Jimmy Hoffa? He was a Colombo. That's kind of how I feel. But at the same time, I'm saying it's sincere and he's trying to help the family get closure. I don't think that, you know, he looks at this as a long shot. He looks at this as legitimate information that he wants to pass on. So why should I sit there and judge him? Because it's coming from the Colombos and not from the Genovese or company. So anyway, it's something that maybe we could talk about in the future. Jeff, thanks a lot for joining us. We figured it out. Yeah. So Jeff Nadu, sit down podcast Scott Bernstein, OG podcast. Thank you to Ben behind the glass for producing Jim move back next week. Scott Bernstein for Mr. Nadu and Benny the producer were out.