 Aloha, I'm Kirsten Baumgart-Turner and this is Sustainable Hawaii, streaming live every Tuesday at noon from the ThinkTech Studio in downtown Honolulu. With the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative launched in 2008, the private sector and state government laid the foundation for what are today the most ambitious energy goals in the nation, including 100% renewable energy for electricity by 2045. But we've lagged behind in setting a similar goal for the transportation sector. My guest today is taking up the charge to help bring the transportation sector into alignment with a focus on renewable fuels in Hawaii. Joel Simón-Pietri is program manager for energy research at the University of Hawaii's Applied Research Laboratory. She was formerly on detail to PECOM from the University of Hawaii's Natural Energy Institute. She co-led the Green Initiative for Fuels Transition, otherwise known as GIFPAC, their biofuels supply chain program with the U.S. Navy, and she led the Joint Deployment Energy Planning and Logistics Optimization Initiatives for the U.S. Department of Defense. Joel started her career as a U.S. naval officer in the Asia-Pacific region. She holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Neurobiology from Duke University and a Master's in Business Administration in Private Equity and Renewable Energy from the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. Wow, Joel. Welcome to the show. I think you're more than fully qualified to talk about today's subject. Well, more importantly, I find it fun, so. Terrific. Well, that's certainly what makes it a success in our community, and you've been on ThinkTech many times, so we often draw on your expertise to inform our audience. Today, tell us a little bit about our Hawaii's transportation goals and, you know, where we headed and do we have one. Well, transportation-wise, as far as a clean energy goal, what we have is a fair number of stakeholders are interested in potentially setting a goal. And so one of your colleagues, Carl Campania, is working on a similar ThinkTech series focused on biofuels this month. Yeah, it's been very informative. I encourage our audience to tune in. But there isn't a goal, per se, at this time. And so part of the debate is about whether or not it makes sense to try and set a goal for transportation, as has been done for electricity. Because in electricity, what you have is a regulated market with a much smaller number of players. So one of the things that I brought some stuff to talk about today is actually a non-regulatory approach to setting transportation goals. And so I was going to walk through... I know a lot of people are going to be very happy to hear that. So I was going to walk through some international and national examples of a voluntary industry principles, largely by the commercial aviation industry. Well, that's terrific, because that accounts for a third of our energy consumption in Hawaii, right? That's right. And it's much larger here, because of the distance, your distance from the coasts on either side of the Pacific Ocean. And so air transportation is a much more intense part of the energy consumption in the state of Hawaii, about a third. And then ground transportation is another third. So what is showing on the screen right now is a graphic that shows the relative carbon life cycle emissions for the different modes of transportation. This is European data. They actually just had the cleanest graphic that I was able to find on short notice to be able to display here. But it's going to be roughly representative for other major developed markets like the US. So what you see up top is the purple. That's actually aviation. So relative to 1990, emissions have gone, went up over time up to about through 1999 and then 2008. That's actually more because of greater demand. And it's much more dependent actually on economic cycles than on technical advancements or underlying greenhouse gas emissions. What you had in 1999 and 2005, 2006 was economic booms where people had a lot more disposable income or were able to get on the plane a lot more often. But I also understand from CAFE's promotional materials anyway from the Aviation Association. What does CAFE stand for again? Oh, CAFE stands for the Commercial Aviation Alternative Fuel Initiative. Right. So CAFE's promotional materials talk about how they have become more efficient while they're also looking at new fuels. So is that curve also representative when it goes down of some of their efforts at being more efficient? That's actually what can show future tense on the next. So if you want to just go ahead and move on to that. So this is where we get to the voluntary principles. So the International Civil Aviation Organization, or IKO, and all of its member airlines, that includes all the US airlines and the US Aviation Organization, which is now called A4A or Airlines for America, have also signed on to this. So this is basically the aviation industry's plan to improve its carbon intensity for air transportation, starting in 2010 and then going out to 2050. So starting from the top, that basically that top line, you know, the blue that's sort of marching up, is the forecasted emissions growth based on growth and demand and just based on growth and population worldwide. Without, if no action is taken to actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions, that's what you're looking at on the top blue line. And then to start to chip away at that, the first strategy is ongoing fleet renewal and technology development. So that's the answer to the most frequently asked question I get about aviation and sustainability, is what about efficiency? So that's what that blue sector is talking about. That's things like adding winglets. So the next time you fly into or out of Honolulu Airport, take a look at the wing of your aircraft. And if it's got a little point sticking up out in sides, that's a winglet that can actually improve the fuel efficiency by up to 2%. And that's different than the flaps that we've seen over the years that go up when we're landing? Yes, they are stationary. But what they do is they actually reduce the drag on the wingtip. And it was actually developed from a biology study. So it was developed actually from studying very efficient large birds, what large birds will do when they're coasting is actually point their little wing, their wingtip feathers up. And so Boeing and Airbus and international civil aviation organizations did a bunch of modeling and simulation with universities like the Georgia Institute for Technology and actually discovered the significant fuel savings for a narrow or wide body aircraft. So that's kind of a no-brainer. Other aspects of aviation fuel efficiency in that blue bar also are going to include some new fuel efficient engines. And so I got an opportunity almost a year ago to actually see the first Boeing 737 MAX being born. That's projected to have 12% greater fuel efficiency compared to its most current 737 prior to that. And a big part of it is just because it's a much larger engine with a larger air intake. So it's actually gonna require some interesting changes on how airport operations work. That's counterintuitive. One would think a larger engine would require more energy. That's exactly why it was such a, you get these interesting serendipities when you start actually really doing some detailed engineering on aviation and fuel efficiency. So- And when you do biomimicry because obviously the birds have had this down for a long time. Yes, they have. So going back to that graphic as you sort of marched down there's other strategies in there. So next is ATC stands for air traffic control. So the next plan to get, the next chunk of reduction in carbon life cycle emissions is actually through operational improvements, better routes, better landing patterns, better takeoff patterns, better circulating patterns around airports and rolling out the next generation air traffic control system, which will be much smarter and more real time. And then that big green chunk, basically the balance of the, trying to keep carbon life cycle emissions at the baseline, despite actual growth and demand and even cut into it so that at 2050 they're aiming to be 20% below 1990 levels. That is actually gonna come from low carbon fuels or biofuels in short. So that really is where you're focusing your efforts is in greening the fleet of aviation you've been involved for years in greening the naval fleet with gift back with a green initiative for transportation fuels for the military, you're covering it all. Well, it's all related. The Department of Defense is a member of the commercial aviation alternative fuel initiative and the Department of Defense and commercial airlines in the US signed a memorandum agreeing to collaborate on alternative fuel research, testing, certification and procurement. And so that co-purchasing is part of the reason why, I worked on this from the Department of Defense side but I'm here today talking about the commercial aviation side. The jet fuel is actually the same. So, and one of the decisions that was made early on is that modification of aircraft. It really isn't realistically gonna happen for another 40 or 50 years just because of the service life of an aircraft that rolls off the production line today is gonna have a service life of 40 years. And so if you're gonna try and green the fuel then doing it by aircraft modification is tackled in that other strategy we already talked about, doing it in the fuel requires modifying how you actually produce the fuel. Well, and I'm sure that the federal government is very involved because we've set national targets and that's important for the government to push and lead with but also the costs need to be somehow absorbed for the advanced research and the technology, right? So we need federal dollars in that or are we coming close to commercial viability for the cost of jet fuel, renewable jet fuel? Well, there's a fair amount of federal research dollars and we can talk about sort of the different points of the technology maturation cycle. So there's some federal research dollars certainly they're actually dwarfed by the private sector investment over time. So over the past decade, I think the most recent set of numbers I got is about an eight to one for every $1 and federal taxpayer dollars that was invested in R&D or technology development or maturation, $8 in private sector funding. Well, that's terrific to hear. And I assume that's because the private sector really is forecasting into the future and seeing how they need to survive in order to do that, they need to be on the cutting edge with renewable fuels. Is that because of regulation or because they're actually improving their bottom line now by switching? Well, part of the reason why the commercial aviation industry is still focused on fuels now, even with fuel prices as low as they have been for the past two to three years is because 2006 to 2008 was a wake up call. Oh, we had several airlines serving Hawaii that went bankrupt during that time. Aloha Airlines was one, ATA was another. And so the commercial airlines to their credit have realized that this is an existential issue for industries that are very dependent on fuel like aviation is. And so they have not slacked at all the pressure or desire to develop alternative and greener sources for operational fuels. And so they're just as enthusiastic today as they were when oil was $147 a barrel. So after the break, we're gonna have to take a little break, I wanna ask you then, is it necessary to incentivize this? Perhaps not. And that's very different from the ground transportation arena we've been looking at for years. So we'll be right back with Joelle who's gonna answer those questions. Aloha everybody. My name is Mark Shklav. I'd like you to join me for my program, Law Across the Sea on thinktechhawaii.com. Aloha. Hi, I'm Stan Enigiman and I want you to be here every Friday. Noon, thinktechhawaii.com. Watch the show. Be there. I pity the fool who ate. Hi, I'm Ethan Allen, host of Lakeable Science on Think Tech Hawaii. I hope you'll join me each Friday afternoon as we explore the amazing world of science. We bring on interesting guests, scientists from all walks of life, from all walks of science to talk about the work they do, why they do it, and moreover, why it's interesting to you. What the science really means to your life, its impacts on you, how it's shaping the world around you and why you should care about it. I do hope you'll join me every Friday at 2 p.m. for Lakeable Science. Hi, we're back with sustainable Hawaii and our guest, Joelle Simone Pietri who is giving us a primer on why the aviation industry is so much more out there and trying to transition to more alternative fuels than my experience has been over my lifetime with the ground transportation industry. Why is that? Well, we talked about some of the business incentives before the break. During the 2005, 2006, 2007 when fuel prices were high for the first time since the 1970s, fuel prices were actually a larger proportion of commercial airlines cost than labor. So it was the first time that fuel actually cost more than labor and that was also part of the wake up call. So part of the reason why there's this sustained pressure but also for a lot of the airlines, it's how they incentivize their employees, it's how they wanna try and compete in a more forward thinking marketplace and so for some airlines like Alaska Airlines it's part of how they try and actually position themselves competitively. They honestly do try and actually be more sustainable across the board and how they do operations. So more efficient, more first mover as far as signing agreements in Hawaii for biofuel supplies and it's part of how they wanna position themselves market-wise as well. You had another question before the break. Well, I was just gonna ask you about positioning themselves in Hawaii. So some of those market agreements, tell us about who, you've just mentioned Alaska Airlines, what is that agreement and who else is getting on board and what can we expect to see? I know that you're on the advisory committee for CAFE and you're also convening a strategic sustainability plan, right? For a couple groups, explain us. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, CAFE, the Commercial Aviation Alternative Fuel Initiative. So this is a US national initiative. It was actually started by the Federal Aviation Administration and CAFE is a public-private partnership. So the federal entities that are involved are the Federal Aviation Administration, the Department of Energy, Department of Defense and on the industry side, there's over 200 member entities. So CAFE also basically has all of the major equipment origin manufacturers. So Boeing and Airbus and General Electric and Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce, those are basically aviation engine suppliers, the examples that I'm giving and then all the commercial airlines as well. So Delta and United and Alaska. And our members, largely through the airline industry association called A4A, Airlines for America. So getting to the sustainability. So CAFE is focused on greening the fuels and biofuels but has some sustainability goals within that. Yes, it's okay, keep this up. Sustainability goals within that as far as environmental goals for CAFE. The overall objectives for alternative fuel deployment are to come up with competitively priced market-based renewable fuel supply chains that can compete against petroleum but also reduce greenhouse gas emissions and achieve some other environmental benefits. One thing that's very important to the FAA and to commercial airlines is some other sustainability aspects that aren't necessarily transparent to the average traveling public. So there's a lot of emphasis on noise reduction. So aircraft today are a significantly quieter compared to an aircraft that would have been flying into or departing from Honolulu Airlines, Honolulu Airport in 1970 as an example. There's also a lot of emphasis on particulate matter reduction both on the ground with the ground support equipment and when aircraft are getting started up on the ground but also at altitude because particulate matter at altitude is known to have greenhouse gas or greenhouse effects. I'm sure just for us common folk to understand it travels on the airways, right? And on the air currents and affects other places as much as wherever they happen to emit them, right? So if you remember, depending on how old you are back when you were a child and you used to look at the sky and you would see, you know, twin white contrails of aircraft flying overhead and you don't see those anymore. That's actually because of these emissions reductions in particulate matter. Those contrails were actually formed by basically the tiny bits of smoke, not smoke but particulate matter coming out of the engines. And so they would cause condensation in the upper atmosphere. I'm not a physicist, I might have used the wrong part of the atmosphere just now but bear with me. So that's actually why you don't see contrails from modern aircraft nearly as often today. Which is terrific. Tell me within the strategic sustainability approach for Hawaii and I believe it also includes the tropics and subtropics, what are the goals and how are those going to help lead or not the transportation goals for Hawaii with regard to aviation? Well goal-wise, a gift pack when it was established set three goals which is, you know, technically acceptable fuel. It has to be chemically equivalent to jet fuel that the military would use today or that commercial airlines would use today. Produced in a manner that is sustainable in terms of, you know, labor environmental impact. And then the third aspect of it is actually ongoing business sustainability from suppliers that end up having strong enough balance sheets to be able to weather economic ups and downs and to have multiple parties in an actual healthy market. So rather than trying to put all eggs in one basket, one supply chain or one particular player, gift pack has been focused on trying to encourage a healthy competitive market with multiple players. Well certainly that's the role of government because we don't want government ever to replace the private sector. So they're actually encouraging it. And gift pack has been very visible in the past at least in the Hawaii scenario with regard to the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative and being part of Verge, how are they leading us for the transportation goals for Hawaii and who's involved with that? Okay, well gift pack is, we've kind of morphed gift pack over time. It now looks a lot more like a Hawaii chapter of Kathy. So has airlines participating. It has a lot of local stakeholders focused on the supply chain side. So everything from landowners and feedstock producers to farmers to transportation of intermediates and end consumers and refiners in the middle. So try and actually have at least one representative from each point in the supply chain. And if you wanted to bring up a backup image I could show there's sort of a picture version of a supply chain from left to right. Absolutely, that would be very informative. But sorry we'll have to find it because I didn't number it on. That's okay. Sorry, I'm leading us all over the world here. Well, with regard to the supply chain, I know that you're looking at all the different fuels and the different technologies. With regard to aviation, what are some of those that we can expect to see being most successful? I know that there was, or several years ago, United Airlines tested some cellulosic biofuels. I know that we've got a company now in Hawaii doing biofuels that are hydrotreated for aviation fuel as well. Tell me about that. Well, Pacific biodiesel is right now the only biofuel company in Hawaii that's producing commercial fuels. And so I'll let Bob King talk for their company and their plans. I have been encouraging them to take a look at upgrading their product to an aviation fuel. But there are incentive problems. And so it kind of goes back to your question before the break, where are incentives needed? The incentives are actually needed on the producer side because basically if you have a gallon of used cooking oil, like a Pacific biodiesel does, or it's a mainland equivalent, what you can make from that is roughly a gallon of biodiesel or roughly a gallon of, or you can make a third of a gallon of jet fuel, a third of a gallon of diesel, and a third of a gallon of green gasoline out of that same gallon of used cooking oil. And so that fraction of jet fuel, that fraction of diesel, and that fraction of gasoline right now at today's market prices don't actually earn as much for that one gallon of feedstock as selling it as biodiesel. Right. And the biodiesel right now is going into more ground transportation applications between it. Right. And biodiesel is a perfectly good, perfectly acceptable fuel for ground transportation. So that's actually where the incentives problem is. And part of the reason why the aviation industry has gotten together so regularly. So you talked about upcoming events. So CAFE's national biennial meeting is going to be happening at the end of this month. That's going to be October 25th, 26th, 27th. And our local gift pack Hawaii version of that we'll be having our next quarterly face-to-face meeting actually on the North Shore. And you're hosting it, so maybe you want to tell us a little bit. Well, I know we're going to take a site visit, a field trip, to the Altaira orchards. Yes. And that'll be very exciting. That's the company that I was thinking about in Hawaii. They're actually producing some of the source material, right? Where are they manufacturing? So what Ter Viva is doing is growing Pongamia. And if you check out Carl Campania's show from last Wednesday, he actually had a speaker from Ter Viva who talked about their crops. So what we're going to get to see at the next gift pack Hawaii meeting is actually go get to all the members. It's an open meeting. Anybody is welcome to come if they're keenly interested in biofuels production and deployment. And that's on November 2nd, 9 AM at Camp Wakule'ia to give the North Shore their fair due. Exactly. You have a couple of other pictures I want to get up here in our last minute. One is the KLM biofuel aircraft. Sure. So what I wanted to close with is I've talked a lot about future tents, but this is past tents. There have been over 1,400 biofuel powered flights across the globe to date. And that number is actually a little bit old because it's two years ago. United Airlines has begun to have biofuels supply in all of its lights out of Los Angeles airport starting in January. And there's a whole bunch of you go to that Kathy website. There's a whole bunch of more recent announcements by different airlines. Lufthansa, there's an actual greening airport initiative in Europe called, I think it's like it's a Sheephole airport. And this is a view from Delta Flight 837? Right. Yeah, so my uncle took this. It was his last flight before retiring. He's a Delta pilot trainer. And so he took this from the cockpit, which is rather unusual for those of us who are usually in the back of the aircraft. Was he flying on renewable jet fuel by any chance? Unfortunately, no. Delta does not have a renewable fuel supplier. Well, they're going to get it now. Not yet. Well, thank you, Joelle. We look forward to having you on again, because as usual, we only touch the surface. Mahalo, and please join us next Tuesday on Sustainable Hawaii at New.