 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's up, Tom? How you doing buddy? Hello friends. How are you? It's good to see you. Good to see you We're going feels like it's been a while has this been a while. Yeah weird. It feels like it's been a while Yeah, I wonder Tom as you've been you've been missing and poor Tyler has had to be here to pick up the slack Fortunately one co-host on the show is is is working But you know hit like if you're happy for Tom's return hit like if you're not happy for Tom's return I'll know the difference at any rate We're gonna talk about what makes you love an army tonight And we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna bring some science to this It's like a continuation of last week's show sort of we'll see we'll see we're gonna We're gonna do some waiting from Tom and I and and the chat here and discuss this Okay but first off the news Yes, we do do the news regularly and every time show for ten years almost No, it's not ten years. I mean we're like we're like eight eight and a half You know next next year will be our 10th anniversary. No won't no won't it'll only be nine It was 2015 it was the it was the winter before AOS launched that the show started Alright, so nine years. We're doing this for nine years Yes, so It's still been nine years. Oh man. I can't believe that So regardless, let's talk about the rumor engine because that's something that's fairly reliable. It is up It is a thing. It's a little hand holding a stick with two skulls I don't know what to think about this because I'm gonna be honest. It looks kind of bad Like bad as in it's a bad sculpt or bad as in it's a bad sculpt But the thing that occurs to me is it looks like it's really small Yeah, okay Yeah, like it's in a weird smaller scale. So I do not know what to make of this. I Mean clearly it's some type of goblin thing like or other small creature like right Assuming I I mean or a smaller scale thing I don't know like it's the fingers are weird like you see what I'm talking about look at the paint Yeah, between the fingers look at the scaling on the edge highlighting on the the straps straps. Yeah, right No, I mean that is definitely that is definitely a hand at the bottom sure What's fascinating to me is that the lighting is on the left side Like if you tilt your head you can see the lighting along along the bottom edge And so maybe it's because that flares out but like for me Let me say it this way. I would normally want to rotate the image right like that's probably the the I think you're just looking at the paint. I think it's a model holding a thing like this It's exactly what it says like holding like this. Uh-huh. I don't think so I think the I think the picture's been rotated 93's and that is being held out in front of something Sure, I mean it could be somebody holding it forward. Yeah, sure. I know what it is Okay, I'm ready It is a new release of flesh eater of course. I It's not in scale. I this totally stumped me because it's too small No, but here's the deal like the ghouls are small. They're small little hunched creatures I'm calling it. This is flesh eater cords. This is probably your new your new new ghoul sculpt I think the hand looks to not messed up as a hand for a ghoul hand, but okay Well again, they think they're knights and so they're carrying royal weaponry. I'm calling it. Yeah, like this is this is flesh eater cords I think it's an old-world thing because it's in the it's in the it's in old-world bad scale like it's a little half It's a little savage halfling No, it's a ghoul now the question is is whether as as as Mike is saying in the chat. It's at a halfling ghoul. That's the real question here We'll bring it back with the old world. They're bringing back dogs of war as well. There we go I'm back on board all of a sudden just like that. Okay Excellent, it's amazing. It's amazing how quickly we just came right around. Yep. Yep. I'm back on board All right, cool. Yeah, it's I don't know It's it's a very strange thing and it's a very bad sculpt and it's not Painted super great either not that it ever looks not that I always lament for poor painters who have to have their work zoomed in On to this level. Yeah, it does almost feel like noblar sized Wary. Yeah, I agree. I can see that I could see that Yeah, okay Yeah, so the FAQ is the next one. Yes Yes, all right, let's bring up some FAQs here. The scale is too big for a 10 millimeter Yeah, it feels like I don't know. It's strange. It feels like just a small thing not like six millimeter ten millimeter But a small thing. Yeah, like a 20 mil base 25 mil like small thing Okay, so FEC There's really two FAQs of note that came out today the first one being the flesh eater courts the second one being The GHB Primal magic stuff. Okay Speaking of flesh eater courts. Yeah. Yeah, so what do we got here? All right. We got some nerfs. That's what we got I mean straight up Morgant Randcourt heaving masses change to you can use this command ability at the end of your movement phase If you do so pick one friendly hero to issue the command and pick one friendly serfs unit That has been destroyed then roll a die on a four plus a new replacement unit with half the models from that unit That was destroyed rounding up is added to your army set up the new unit Holy within six inches of the edge of the battlefield and more than nine for my enemy models Each destroyed unit can be replaced only once Replacement units cannot themselves be replaced okay, so Tom, what do you what do you what do you think about this overall? Like I mean it had to happen, right? Yes Yes Like it couldn't stay as it was So the way it was just for for for the audience I actually pull up the text I wanted to read the exact like I knew generally what it did, but I wanted to read the exact text Okay, the way it used to work is this You can use this command ability when a friendly Morgant serfs unit is destroyed if you do so roll a dice On a four plus a new unit identical to the one that was destroyed is added to your army set up the new unit Holy within six the edge of battlefield and more than nine from enemy models so Basically this one Right Meant that or this one is now keyed to the end of your movement phase you get to call back a unit and it's at half strength Right, so it's got a timing change and it's got the standard come back at half strength thing The old one could just happen anytime in response. Now, of course, you still had limitations on sort of issuing and stuff like that. I would also your Yeah, so like you could be using it multiple times theoretically per round Yeah, I mean if your units were destroyed in different phases, of course, or right, right, right So very big change. I yeah, I mean, obviously this was Uh, sort of this older style of way this is working Uh, and in the original command ability, you know, this thing out of the old book My honest answer is the the big one of the biggest challenges I feel bad for flesh of your quartz players for getting nerfed for the same time They had to see this nerf coming like I can't believe anybody Is surprised by this The the disservice that was done to flesh your quartz players here is not being able to get their book out fast enough That's the problem. Yeah, they just should have a new book right now We shouldn't be dealing with their ancient book and the weird mishmash of rules and that kind of crap Like that's the problem. This is simply a product. This is a casualty. Let me say it that way This is a casualty of the of not having a new book. Yeah agreed Uh, so that's how that works now And then let's scroll on down here because we got a couple other ones um So the uh A born arch regent summon imperial guard changed to yada yada yada crypt ghouls Not the worker of hand Yes. Yeah, right, right Uh, that's the change here that It's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Yeah Oh, by the way, uh lnrd says I think the only replacement rule that still has the old instant speed Now is the master molder command. No, there are two There is that but there's also call for aid out of the storm cast both can can bring that back I didn't at sort of instant speed Uh, and scaven is basically a 2.75 book that they didn't bother to update completely because it's too much work And nobody in the studio. I think plays scaven Or at least they didn't at the time that book was written. I have no idea. They've changed over a lot of people And storm cast was like the first book of of 3.0. So You know, they were still in a 2.0 mindset when they were writing most of that. So but yes, you're right They've jettisoned most of the rest of that Um as well, they should like it's just it shouldn't be the trigger um Okay, and then of course the abhorrent gulking summon minute arms blah blah blah same thing crypt ghouls And then crypt ghouls Crypt players and crypt horrors just that we got the official word. Yes, of course You're supposed to use these new war scrolls that we published They're the correct war scrolls use these and we've already reviewed them Previously we've looked at them. They are certainly a significant upgrade over the other old versions for the most part for the most part Um, yeah, so and and they're down here in the document. I mean like I said, we talked about them before so Yeah Cool I mean look Nobody likes a pre-book Nerf because something went sideways gw shouldn't have ever printed like if they if those guys were going to be serfs They should have made this change initially like if they wanted the the work by warband to be serfs because They are right because they sort of categorically are and they don't have to play with keywords Like that is the appropriate keyword Then they should have just published a change at the same time saying like we never intended this to work with this other thing so yeah Yeah, so like that's that's it's not as though they're blame-free and all this they they should have absolutely addressed this like right away I don't like when these things come out like this Clearly and and causing a sort of Misalignment and then you've got to go back and and fix it, you know We're not dealing with like a uh A monthly magic banning here in an eternal format because you got to try to balance every new card you print against 30,000 cards Right, like the the known book that this is going to work like the book This is going to work with is a very restricted known quantity Right, so we should we should have stuff like this in mind. So Yeah, okay I mean, I would point out that almost every war cry warband that has been bent because they'll accidentally be bent Always gets rained in or clarified or restricted in some way because always Ridiculously spammed and that's just not what they they want. So like here's a good lesson just in general as a consumer If a new war cry warband comes out and it seems like it's bent sideways and really really good Maybe hold off Don't go by Like 10 of them Contain your urges. See what's going to happen there. Just a thought just a thought Um So there you go Okay, so that's the anything else we want to say on the fec one No, I think it's good. Okay All right, uh Let's talk about the general's handbook Lots of lots of lots of magenta here Tom Amazing how that works. Yeah Uh, it's a great question. Dougie fresh or splintered fang the upset the exception I don't know what to think of splintered fang because I do still think they're bent and they haven't really been adjusted They're their points moved around but I don't know. I don't know what to think of that. Um, anyways I also don't see them a lot like not all people play them. So it's it's hard to say Could just be the production meta on painting a lot of snake people I would I would feel a lot better if this was mostly just q&a moving on And not as much actual orata Well, what you want to see is less errata and more q&a. There'll always be questions and that's fine Right, right because in a game of this sort of complexity, there's just always going to be questions that you have to answer Yeah Because you don't want to write your book in legal text. And so there's going to be gray Um, and so q&a is good. I think that that you know, what I hope In the in the coming months and years is that we slowly Decrease the um We slowly decrease the amount of errata and sort of necessary changes like that Um carnival wilson, you can spam war cry war bands. I thought they were unique No, they are not war cry war bands are just things. They're just units You know, if you're thinking of underworlds war bands, those are often unique because they're like a named thing right Okay Yeah Uh, all right when the players roll to see if they receive primal magic dice at the start of the hero phase Do both players roll their dice at the same time? Yes Uh, this is meaningful for various incendiary reasons of like All sorts of wacky stuff, but yes, you just both do it. Okay Uh Is a primal miscast the same as a miscast? No a primal miscast occurs instead of a miscast if an ability has an effect that triggers when a spell is miscast For example, the skull alters witch bane ability. The effect does not apply. This answer surprised me I just assumed we were going to have It all apply like yeah, it's just a super miscast. So still do everything you would normally do It is key worded miscast, right? Right, right like like it has miscast in the Title I understand why they chose to do what they did Um, but uh, I think that it is not Intuitive I agree. Did you miscast? Yes, but it's a different kind of miscast I hate that kind of crap like just no it all stacks on it's a it's a miscast The fact that it has some extra effect is fine. It's just all extra effects. They get stacked on top Did I miscast? No, it was a primal miscast Uh-huh Yeah, yeah, I mean it doesn't matter I don't play with spellcasters in the current season. So None of this matters to me I haven't taken a wizard in the past couple weeks and I'm and let me tell you what tom Uh, call me mcdonald's over here because i'm loving it. Okay. I don't worry about this. I just unbind dice for me I am aware. I am aware It's I am too blessed to be stressed my dog. It is a it is a nice life Is we going to my hero phase? Exactly. I'm just like not one of my own binding years. We're good. All right. Let's go okay, uh all right What happens if I use primal magic dice to supplement a casting roll that was made with three or more D sixes and my roll includes two or more ones and two or more sixes the answer should have been That's not possible. You cheated Right Like that's because you're supposed to roll primal dice one at a time So i'm trying to picture the situation you roll your base dice. You have a one and a six. Let's say Right. Okay, right. You roll one additional die If it is either a one or a six either one stops the process Because either spell cast immediately unbindable or you primal miscast How did we get to the fourth dice? Yeah, I mean what this says is Uh, like the actual wording of the f a q is wrong. It should have said stop you idiot Read the rules I mean to be fair People often don't play it the right way. So I get this answer Like this is a fair answer to put in But this is just people not playing the game in the way that the rules actually said Right. Yeah, and so like they have to account for when people just go Okay, I'm going to use these extra two primal dice and roll them And then get that right um So uh, so people said what about 3d6 cast sure. Okay, let's walk through that example So like that's exactly right. So you roll three dice in the original three either you have two ones or two sixes right Your question is now answered Well, but you didn't you miscast if you rolled this so here's the situation I can think of I guess there is a corner case here It's fair where you've rolled two ones and you have a six and you throw another dice No, because that already miscast and stopped it would have to be one one and two sixes There we go This would work because the spell doesn't automatically fire at that point nothing about rolling two sixes on your base 36 matters Assume you get to keep all three dice Okay, like it has to be not drop the lowest if it's anything where it says 3d6 and you drop the lowest that doesn't count That's out So this has to be a 3d6 Keep all three Then you roll your first primal dice and you get a one. There we go. Okay So for the like that that is the case. There is an actual legit use case where you can get here okay But why are you throwing primal dice at uh double six because you want to make it super high You want to go you want to go because if you roll any die and don't roll the one It'll it'll instantly become a primal cast and go off on unbindable Right Sure Sure Yeah Okay, that's fine All right So at any rate. Yes, there is a kinsi. So all right. I roll it back. I take back my criticism There you go. That is that was a justifiable answer. All right, cool Can desi dice be spent to replace primal magic dice? No fair. Okay Uh How do re-rolls work with primal magic dice? Uh, if an ability or effect allows a player to choose whether to re-roll a casting roll such as a friendly shrine luminors cleansing rituals ability The player cannot use primal magic dice to supplement that casting roll I think they left a piece of text out there that says like if they choose the re-roll Because like if you don't use the re-roll you should still be able to use primal magic dice, right? Like you didn't re-roll Um, you just can't use it after you re-roll. So I think there's a missing sentence there Or missing sorry missing claws claws. Thank you. Yeah to qualify it Right, uh, if an ability or an effect forces a player to re-roll a casting roll such as an enemy's infernal Enrapturous discordance disruption ability or or or or all the things that make you re-roll successful. Yes The player can still use primal magic dice to supplement that casting roll Um That's a weird Interaction again, not intuitive Right because if it is forcing a re-roll it's still a re-roll Right, but now we've we've created some new class of like special re-rolls Where you're a lot of hungry rolls correct Which I don't like. Yeah, it felt like this was in the like unless I'm missing something here in chat You can correct me from wrong. Uh, thank you for catching our mistake on the last one but like We're already explaining in the rules that if you re-roll the dice You don't get to use primal magic dice. So it's like, okay. Well if something forces you re-roll that's unfortunate It's sad for you. I'm sorry about your luck that suddenly you can't use primal magic dice anymore on it But isn't that like an advantage for those armies? Isn't that just like a neat thing that they can do? Aren't those not anymore kind of garbage now if they can just primal magic over the top of it? um like Okay I I just feel like this this answer is completely not within how the rules actually work And moreover from a sort of to to parse the rules in a legalistic sense it actually created a new class Of re-rolls that are somehow separate from existing re-rolls Called forced re-rolls, but this is the only time that matters Right now because now you have to ask the question in every other instance where forced re-rolls are related Do they follow the normal re-roll rules? Right. Right. What this says is No, they don't follow the normal re-roll rules and normal exceptions So the question is can you re-roll a forced re-roll? Maybe right well because Because that's because that wasn't a re-roll that wasn't a re-roll. It was a forced re-roll It's a separate class. So now we've opened the door to like asking this question on everything else and like and like Flaming I get it. It sucks. Like I'm not disagreeing that it's like an npe moment But like it's also just the way the rules work. Like yeah, the way the rules work. There's a lot of npe sometimes Like that's what occurs. I don't know like opening this what I'm saying is Yes, that's npe But like first of all the whole primal magic dice system is doesn't need to exist and is I don't like it as a general mechanic um, but like the The right answer is just like you wrote the system. So this is the what you you made your bed now You got to go sleep in this is the design of the system itself Right and if you don't like that design you need to not use the mechanics of primal dice as they've been written And like I get the people saying but it seems okay to separate this But what tom is saying what I agree with is okay. So now we have a new class. It's called forced re-rolls Can I re-roll that again? If I have another if you make me re-roll and I have an ability to re-roll Can I re-roll your re-roll? It normally because you know Normally because it's a re-roll, but this isn't a new thing and that role is prohibiting normal re-rolls not forced re-roll Right, exactly. So like if I have the ability to re-roll my spells and you make me re-roll Okay, I roll my dice You make me re-roll and then I go, okay, I'll use my re-roll to re-roll my re-roll Correct And you can do that because because according to the rules you can't re-roll re-roll But what they force you to do is not a re-roll right Right by by this ruling if we extrapolate this well if we assume that class applies more broadly That's not necessarily true. The problem is it doesn't jump to that Right It it creates a class that creates a question That's the problem. They didn't say And hence all force re-rolls are definitely a separate class and you can use all your normal re-roll abilities on them or modifies or modifiers on them Right, correct, correct. They said This thing is different in this case in a way that isn't aligned with the normal base rules Which then opens the door to say, okay, what about every other place where that might occur So as well Could you replace dice? In a forced re-roll like I'm thinking about other things that can't normally be done to a re-roll roll. Sure sure I mean it opens all that So I look forward to the future FAQ answers On this one, uh, that's what I'm which I am sure are rolling in now as we speak Okay, people are already scouring more scrolls to write FAQs questions Uh Yeah, no, I mean I get their rationale. I just I just don't agree with it Okay, when I pick units to place in reserve using outflank in the spring the trap battle plan Can I pick a friendly unit that has an ability that says it cannot be set up in reserve or set up again? Such as go track. No, obviously not. Okay. When I pick a units to place in reserve using outflank in the spring the trap battle plan Can I pick a friendly transport vessel that has units embarked? Yes, but you also have to roll enough to pick them or you can't put them in the thing that's that's doing that, right? Okay Um, all right Uh So like otherwise you can't move this ship. It's fine Like sure fine. Yeah, I like okay. I that's completely that's that's intuitive enough Yeah, that's fine. Like yes, there's three units. You're trying to pull three units off the table The fact that two of them happen to be in the boat doesn't change the fact that there's three units, right? Yeah Uh, can you use to contain one or more models that are wizards? For example lumeneth realm lords venari aurelion or or olan the sentinels Units be included in the wizard finders of entador battalion No Okay It's fine like You can't help wizards if you're part wizard. I get it. You're multi-classed. I don't know what to tell you Yeah, this is what you get for being fighter wizards. I guess you're you're still wizard you know Uh Okay, it's a unit that contains one or more models that are wizards For example, lumeneth realm lords venari aurelion sentinels unit considered to be a wizard If it is picked to be the target of attacks made by an enemy unit in the wizard finders of entor battalion Yes, as long as the conditions that make that model a wizard are satisfied Yadda yadda yadda This one surprised me. I would have thought the answer to this was no, but I guess take that lumeneth Like as opposed or like in following the logic of the prior answer. Yes. They are still wizards Well, I could see see here's the thing I could see the I actually could see a reason to split this to a part here Because at selection this unit included a thing that was a wizard Right. Yes at that moment. Yes. Yes. And so the unit is not a wizard Right, but it would still not meet the the qualify because the qualifier is negative can't contain this thing at all Yeah, right Yep Whereas then you could say but then they could have answered no to this one as well and I would have been like sure It's just a weird. It's in a weird liminal space Right because when you attack the unit it is not a wizard The unit is now it's not a wizard. Right, but it is now. I understand that I get it That's what I'm saying their answer surprises me Right because going the other way around would have would have I would have believed it because I was like, okay That's like at least creation when it says you can't contain any of these things Some member of that unit is one of those things. So like a prohibition is a prohibition, right? Zero percent Yes, okay can be that thing Whereas this says the whole thing has to be that thing Right. Well, no, no This one says if if that one model is a wizard because I understand what the FAQ answer is saying I'm saying what the battalion says What the battalion is looking for is a one zero check Right. Are you a wizard or not and the answer is well? No, I'm not a wizard by how you're defining right? in that but now This is also saying but it is a wizard When it's being targeted or attacked, right? Which raises like a whole other set of questions Again, yeah, here we are asked Because this unit is now being considered a wizard for some things again for this one thing. This should have been No and no, right? That that's how like that's the correct for consistency For consistency it would be no and no But for them to split this now raises questions for everything else that targets wizards Yeah Yeah, I don't know what to do with that Jonathan straw says it doesn't have a wizard keyword just becomes a wizard when the conditions are met So does this mean you can't play lumineff and path to glory not important to you guys, but it does affect that I mean my answer would be in path to glory. You can do whatever the heck you want Like there's no reason you shouldn't still be taking this unit and ignore this Because well, no you just take less models in the unit under what it takes so that they don't get down to like below four tom there's not gonna do that No, I mean like I just because path to glory is not that kind of thing, right? It's not like you're not at the tournament where someone we're judge where you're getting judge called, right? Like obviously you and your friends can just do the logical thing because it's path to glory is meant to be a friendly You know sort of format, right? In the same way that like any at-home format like that you can just choose to ignore dumb rulings Like Um Okay, yeah, I just I whatever is what I like that's where I'm at at this point. Whatever like It's just all over the place Just what just what lumineff need sure Hey, there you go. Martin said they are allowed per the path to glory f aq. Hey, I didn't know they existed but cool Uh, if I use an ability to automatically cast a spell with a set casting role This one this one truly kills me If I use an ability to cast a spell with a set casting role such as the scenario cathol r's deep thinkers ability But the set casting role is below the casting value of that spell. Is that spell cast or not? No The amount of people who Argued with me on this one like first of all, this is the correct answer But the amount of people who argued with me seemingly in good faith on this one Blew my mind Okay So what this is is to make this real for those not familiar. Basically the the lumineff scenario People have the ability to just cast a spell on a nine Right. Yep. And and the exact wording is like instead of rolling you can cast the spell the spell is Automatically cast on a nine or something like that is I think the wording Okay. Yep That's I'm paraphrasing slightly of course because I mean, I don't have every word of every rule memorized And then you've got merciless blizzard Which is a 12 okay And people argued with me that no I can just cast that thing I'm only rolling a nine But I can still cast the thing that says on a 12 because the word said automatically cast and I'm like How can you parse this like this? You it's replacing the role Very clearly. Yes. It is replacing the role and setting your casting Role to nine there is an indelicate verbiage in the base rules here on what it means like both You both are casting the thing and the thing is cast, right? It's using the right the way and sort of both ways and so I agree that there is like an indelicate use of vernacular here But come on nine isn't equal to 12 like I wish they had been more snarky. I wish they had said no nine is less than 12 Like they should have done that real missed opportunity here What we need is we need the company like social media twitter presence For like Wendy's or some of those other companies that have those like Just super snark just on tap Writing these FAQs. Yeah Where is the where's the what was the easier weekly or whatever? Where's where's where's easier weekly with the breaking news? Uh, hi lord sigmar says nine is actually less than 12 Where's that? Where's that? Where's that news story? Where's that? Yeah, exactly. All right If a priest has the hand carved null stone icon, how many spells or endless spells can it attempt to unbind or dispel in the enemy hero phase one? If that attempt is successful that unit can attempt to unbind another spell or dispel another spell and so on until the attempt fails Yep, that's fine Uh, if my general has the shaman of the chilled lands, do I still get to pick a spell? Yes Okay, cool And then spring the trap we fixed that as we knew it would be two d3 friendly units Like obviously we all knew that was going to be the case every to in the world who was using that was like, yeah, obviously It's just friendly units. You're not picking up your enemy units and putting them into reserve Okay, not all that's not what's happening here. Right and then finally burning head. I guess there's two more actually so burning head Uh, we changed flaming skull so that it doesn't like attach because that caused weird interactions with having this extra model not model There so now it's just like a token that's on them effectively Um, which is fine like the game wasn't meant to to hold some model just following a unit around like that It caused all sorts of weird placement and movement interactions So, yeah, no issue. Same effect. It's just instead of representing it by having the little burning head follow them around you get to You get to just put a token on them and then you can recast it again in the future fun And then grand strategies magic made manifest change to in the battle ends you complete this grand strategy If there are two or more endless spells in the battlefield that were summoned by friendly wizards Or there was a friendly incarnate on the battlefield that just bonded to a friendly unit And there are one or more endless spells on the battlefield that were summoned by friendly wizards Okay It's fine Yep So there you go All the points changes were just the previous stuff. There wasn't actually much in the way I think from what I saw of new new points change. No um And to answer the uh No, we we still don't take plague I might disagree with that tom. I used some plague claws recently. I gotta say I'm I think I'm coming around on them at 100 points. I really am I I put two of them in a list and I'll tell you what buddy. It doesn't work They didn't some work Because like you can like now at 100 points. They are interesting. I mean they can win still of course So is it worth the gamble like is it worth that gambling dice roll? That's the question at 100 points I think I'm a gambler. Yeah, I talked about this recently actually on um But at 100 points, yeah, I think I'm a gambler. I'm I'm I'm a gambling man um I mean it goes to twos twos rend to 2d6 damage if you can if you can target the right unit Yeah, so That's not bad for it's still one shot, but hey You only get one shot Uh, but m&m still took it. I'm just I was gonna say do you hear m&m start rapping whenever you pick up that dice? That's the question. Yeah So, uh, yeah, I believe you're right devon corvin is that the rune smiter got updated to match the battle scroll Yeah, I think that was the only actual like points change. Yep Okay I don't care about the bonus to battle shock test because I don't believe battle shock actually exists in the game Um, so that's but yes, it's fine. It's a perfectly fine thing um So for me, it's it's in scaven who are already a gambling army. It's a perfectly fine gambling piece. So there you go I wanted nervel As as Keith robner does No, I don't think so in nergal just because like I don't I don't think it's doing what nergal wants. Like just take more rock wire creed if you want ranged power Maybe but one can maybe make the argument that it does It responds to hordes in a way that nervel may have problems. I don't think that's nergal's problem right now Okay Yeah So there you go uh I agree with reforms bugman. That's right. I will love you if you hit the like button. It's just that easy It's just that simple Uh, all right Cool. So that's the news good stuff Uh What other quick note this right now what i'm wearing is a this this shirt This is a shirt from majestic 13 from adam and i's game Uh, and I believe we're gonna have the merch store coming up sometime next week So uh watch myself and adam on twitter because we'll be sharing whenever that's That's up and ready to go and we'll have shirts you can buy and rep your individual team if you want. So for example this Uh Very awesome section six t-shirts that I have but there are uh, there are other ones. So there you go Okay, cool Let's move on to some pick Of the week Uh pick of the week tom. What do you want to share with everybody? What do you got man? I It's hard for me not to it's a little bit old Like so one channel multiple videos Okay I'll mention the relevant one, which I think you guys have mentioned, but I'll mention it anyways is Hey, whoa always bringing the wonderful commentary Particularly on the leaks for the cities of sigmar sure. Um That leaks so early Just just Absolutely. Um And just the dry engagement with the war scrolls page by page Was delightful. Um But I may also have I am warming up and prepping to start uh bg3 um when it drops on playstation 5 and Uh, his playthroughs have been fire So, um Again Mr. Hey, whoa delivering as always sure Uh keith, I don't know exactly how to define that but yes, it's a pretty breathable cotton. This is from fourth wall Which is where we're going to I'm going to be moving our our merch store as well Um, they have really nice quality stuff. It's all made in the u.s. It's all like it's it's um I think it might if like there's some other places around the world I think they do have distribution distribution sites in other countries, but it's locally made is what I should say and um Like it's really nice. I don't know. I like it. It's soft I I don't know I don't really sweat because I'm a weird Because I'm a totally normal human Uh, so then nothing else. Don't worry about it. Don't ask questions. Uh, all right, so Uh, very good. My pick Is for rogue hobbies Uh, a fantastic person and just all around awesome human being who has a new video that uh answers a question I get quite a lot Which is how to photograph your minis a thing that took me literal years To figure out how to get it to a place where I liked like only in the last six months I'll be completely honest Have I finally figured out how exactly to take like really high quality pictures of minis? and uh And now finally I like the pictures I can get on my miniatures, but it took me a long time But but this video will shortcut all of that annoying process And uh And get straight there. So go check it out. It's linked down below Uh, yeah, so because a lot of people I mean you took a you painted your mini. Don't take a bad picture of it It's the worst. I hate when people share bad pictures if they're well painted minis. It's sad Um, okay Uh Keith said if it's comfortable in hot weather it breathes. I don't know like I don't know what hot means. I like it hot Uh, so That's I'm also not a good judge there if I walk out. It's like, you know 90 degrees plus or something. I'm pretty happy That's a good day for me. Um okay so, uh, let's Talk about some hobby time Tom We'll go back over here to this picture while we're waiting so the changes Let's talk about some hobby time Tom, what do you what do you what are you working on? You you paint anything or is or or do I have two lazy co-hosts who aren't painting? Uh, I have gotten models out for this for uh, holy wars or holy havoc. Does that count? Gotten models out. What does that mean? What does that mean? I'm working on I'm working on getting ready I'm I'm set in the stage You're running up to it Yeah, you know like sometimes you take a break. It's been a while. You know, you need to You're gonna build a runway. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You need to set yourself up for success No, tom. That's nothing. That's nothing gets literally nothing Um, okay, so there you go. That's my answer to you and you know better Uh, all right For myself, I have been I you know, I had this model And I was just like I want to paint this because this guy looks awesome And I want to paint some barbarian skin because I'm on a real skin tone kick recently So I painted this guy this super awesome barbarian dude Uh, like look at this dude. Isn't that dude cool looking? I know he's kind of out of focus there. I'm sorry, but if I bring him back here raise and focus He's too small So, yeah, but there you go. Cool little barbarian guy Um, this came from anthony pulcastro. So thank you anthony. He he 3d printed a bunch of these from a kickstarter for me And he's got a few too many grizzlies standard Digital design problem of somebody can zoom into like times a thousand and then sculpt stuff with a digital tool At the pixel level and they don't think about how that's going to render when it actually prints out But nonetheless, it's cool The beautiful smooth negative space the skin was totally worth it. And that was really the main fun of it I just like painting a bunch of skin on models and experimenting and Specifically the way I was experimenting with that model and model is two different experiments on it You'll see this in some future videos at some point way in the future when I get them edited but I was specifically experimenting with these two Which are the two new signature sets from pro acryl. This is ben comets and matt sex wishes set Which complement of course the There you go original signature sets from myself and ninjohn. So now there's a whole nice l4 pack I really liked all four of these sets together. You can still get our signature set and now these new ones to it Check them out on monument site Not sponsored content just like the stuff uh and the I mean, obviously I'm always happy to have somebody buy something that I made so that's cool But then also I've been experimenting with a little for for toning the skin with with these guys This is speed paint 2.0. So I've been using some speed paint 2.0 on the on the skin Uh, and you're absolutely right scry 11. I do love buff shirtless dudes. There is no two ways about that That is exactly my favorite thing. Yes I need to reflect the voice of the community They want to know when is your fire slayer army happening? It's like that entire army was sculpted for you Then it was sculpted for you. It's really not Because those little dwarfs are are just not at all interesting Uh, it was made for you or you could do a corn army like that would be the other No, the right answer is ogres and that's why I've already paid it an ogre army because ogres are actually have fun musculature to paint They have interesting shapes and curves and and things like that Ogres have really fun little things hence Larry the ogre. That's why he's always around because I just I always enjoy painting ogres Um, they're big They're good not small and annoying like fire slayers hard pass Uh, hey, I'm just saying don't knock it till you try it. Uh, okay the uh The uh, yeah, exactly my my love for buff shirtless dudes is countered by the diapers. Yes, exactly Exactly. Also notice this guy's wearing boots, which is correct. Like you got to wear boots That's just you don't walk around in a wasteland without your boots on uh, all right, so Let's uh, let's move on tom Shall we to our main topic of the night? Which is what makes you love an army? So tonight tom and I we're going to talk about What makes you fall in love with an army really really love an army? What makes them your favorite? so last last week we talked about this sort of like scoring system For trying to determine the best army, right? And like using the power of a bunch of subjective evaluations to get to an overall Sense of truth, right? Sort of employing the law of large numbers or something like that Uh Richard is a public allowed in the holy haves just for competitors. No, I people stop by all the time You can just stop by the hotel say hi to everybody. Yeah, sure um Okay Uh, the I'll tell adam Spencer um And that's all fine, but here's the problem. I realized tom as we were going through that I realized this as I scored my own armies. I'm sure you didn't watch last week's show. Okay. I That is quite the assumption Am I correct? You are okay, so It's fine When I did last week's show the aren't my favorite armies did not score the highest When I scored them, right? And like I stand behind the scoring that I did because I do think that like if if put under those circumstances Being evaluated under a broad spectrum of things, you know in each category being weighted and such as it were That like holistically that army if taken and avoid outside of my tastes is better Right, it's a better designed book or because of its availability or or whatever whatever all the stuff it is, right? and uh But that doesn't actually matter. That's what sort of like I was as I was thinking about that I was like, yeah, that's all true But so what? Right like You we all know we fall in love with an army And something about it clicks for us And it just like That's it. We're in we're hooked. This is the thing Okay But I think where that happens is completely different for different people and at different times I thought it'd be fun for us to talk about it Talk about the different elements that might hook us and how we'd weight them And then I want to understand how the audience weights them as well. That makes sense Okay, yeah So before we get into any of the individual Things before we go even one more slide further. Let's just start here Tom What are your favorite Armies, what are the armies that you fell in love with and you think you always will be like do you have an army that's like You know you you love it And even if the rules are crap you still love it You might not play it as much but it's still your army or something like that, right? Like it might it might come and go with how often you're putting it on the table But you would if somebody asked you you would say this is one of my favorite armies Right you get you know what I'm saying Okay, so what what is that for you? What or what are those not because it doesn't be yeah, I have multiple. Um, I would say that Uh High elves Fit that bill for me Okay Like original 8th edition aisles like where are leshians 8th edition, but like where ever fantasy is what I mean to say there Yeah, yep. Yep, and um and swift hawk agents and that whole crew Like those were real aos armies. That was a thing that that did exist for a period. Sure. Um, we're we're grog gnarting here, but sure No, it's fine. You asked your favorite class halfling Keep going I will keep going. Um uh, I would say that my my KO slash fire slayer army. Yep, it's up there Sure. Yeah, I mean you've built that force over a long time. It's got lots of conversions yada yada yada You've played it many many times. Sure Yep um, I would probably say my Slaves the darkness nercle Okay And But that's a specific thing you mean like that that That line not all of s2d not all of nergal that line cut through the middle. Okay, right interesting. Yep. Okay Yep, um And Yeah, I mean that like that's what I would say there are others that stand out obviously like I think about my Daughters of kane or some of those other stuff, but those really stand out to me and the reason well, yeah Like I recognize that my logic isn't going to be what motivates a lot of people Like and I love my night on to to be very clear. Um But what motivates me just isn't what it's going to be for most people and I understand that Okay, all right as we're going chat. We're going to play along here So everybody who's in the chat Throw up one one army. What is your favorite army? What's the army you love? I'm just curious to see the readout from the people watching Type it in there hit in the comments You know, like if you're watching later drop a comment of what your favorite army is I'm curious as to what what is the actual favorite. That's completely non scientific This is just because I want to bounce off it and see kind of what what pops up a lot Now for me The answer is pretty straightforward. Okay, and and it's actually at like three different time periods It's Skaven or slanash Well three different time periods. Okay So and I'm just watching the results rolling over here. Good. A lot a lot of corn coming up right there immediately um Okay Oh nice. Skaven because of total war. All right All right. It's good A lot a lot of stormcast fans. Okay. Okay Uh Michael Holm being a an old schooler like you saying empire. Okay. Very nice Okay Very nice. All right for me Let's look at the three Let's look at three time periods So we have initial starting Warhammer. Yep. Yep. That's Skaven and they've been with me ever since right Then we have the next phase where we were getting together and playing all our long campaigns So I made a new army for a campaign and that was slanash Right, that's what got me in a slanash when we around the mid 2000s when we started doing a weekly campaign game Like a the original generals compendium or whatever it was called campaign game Whatever that was the map game. I wanted to build a new army for that. So I made Something pass That it was a dwarven book, right Or no blood No, it was like the generals compendium or something like that's what the book was called that had them happening. Yeah So then I fell in love with slanash and I've had that ever to this day and I just I was I was hooked in right and then tombkinks And then no like I I I like my two kings. I do but I I wouldn't call them my army just I don't know if they've They've fallen away They've fallen away which is strange to think of with an army I have 13 000 points of right No, the third one is iron jaws And so that's the that's the modern a os age. I can't explain why I love that dumb army so much But I really do I mean, I told you you would Yeah, it's strange because I I'm not wasn't traditionally a destruction player didn't really get into much of it and yet Something about iron jaws just clicks with me. Maybe it's just like the raw brutality of it the simplicity The fact that it is very much like it's it's a very Playing iron jaws ironically When you when you when you're really in the mix, it's like playing a well coordinated ballet The way all your pieces are moving around the board like exactly where you want them in this sort of strange Circular pure as you're crisscrossing and and moving things into place and charging and getting them how you want It's not actually a blunt force army. I've never played it like an alpha strike army I just like things with a lot of mobility, right? Well, it's actually one of the I would argue it's one of the best designed Armies in early a os sure Um, because no matter what unit you had everybody had a purpose and a function in the army Um, and so everything has a clearly delineated role and it does that role well Um, and I think you feel that design when you play it Yeah Yeah, you know looking back at the responses It like at the people who put in the responses you see a lot of like storm cast Sob light slaves to darkness Nurgle corn like that that that that pops up a lot good amount of gets as well And I think those things all resonate so it'll be interesting to hear like as we get into the various reasons why right? and For me like if I had to it'll be interesting because I want to sort of disambiguate why those three are what I like because I mean I have like 20 armies, right? Yeah, and I played all of them, you know, I have a daughter's army that's beautiful And I I'm not trying to like to my own horn on the painting. I just mean like I put a lot of work into it I think it looks very nice but I really don't I don't know just doesn't like it didn't stick with me. It didn't resonate over time Whereas skaven for 25 years now I've gone back to them to that well time and time and time and time and time again Like think of how many rule sets I've played that under right? Yeah effectively a fifth sixth seventh eighth Uh, and then all three aos versions I I have played skaven right And like obviously there's a little micro You know sort of changes in there and stuff, right like different generals handbooks and stuff like that that wildly change things around and I It's the same with sonesh It's the same with like I still play my slinnish army even though it drives me crazy like I I hammer that That square peg into that round hole like really hard because I just I refuse to play the way that the book tells me I should play and I keep playing the way I want to play Um, and iron jaws have gone up and down and like they're sort of overall quality or win rate bounce all over the board But I never have a bad time playing them. It's always a fun time Okay so um, yeah With the same plague priest. Yes, that is true. That's you say that is a joke That is not a joke I have had The same plague priest I this is one of them So I sold off my entire skaven army except for two units and remade the whole army at some point in time And the two units I kept were my original plague priest that lord skulk And my unit of plague monks my metal plague monks because they were the first unit I ever finished like a unit that I finished like I painted 25 models and I was like I did a whole unit I did it. I did the thing right way back in the day And yes, I have played with literally that same plague priest for 25 years. He's been with me that guy So not a joke absolutely true. Okay Let's get into let's let's talk about let's let's get into these dimensions tom. So all right Let's start with the big three to me When we're talking about what makes us love an army Three things above all else Okay Okay, but uh by the way us If you're excited Hey, now's the perfect time to hit that like button for your favorite army. That's right. Okay hit the button click things make things It's fun. Here we go Start with number one the rules Okay, and I've got this thing here down. This is waiting. We're gonna give it a waiting All right of what we think This row the weight the way we're gonna wait this Is it everything has a waiting between one and five? They're not mutually exclusive So you can have multiple fives you can have multiple ones Okay, and it's how important we think it is to being able to fall in love with an army You and I can have different answers All right But that's that's we're gonna that's how we're gonna do this just a simple one through five That's the end of this. All right So the rules and here I've got A picture of the cycle of corruption. I think one of the coolest written rules Like regardless of what it does Right, like however good it is like we can argue about how good or bad it is But certainly we must admit it's a cool Rule that is very in flavor Right, uh Like the appreciation profile of this one is very high Yeah, so How much do the rules matter to you tom to falling in love with an army? One and a half maybe So 1.5 like low low Okay Very low weight. I would say On a percentage scale 10% But I couldn't I couldn't get that low Um, and one just feels off for some reason on a one to five. Uh, I mean even though that's 20% um Rules just don't matter They really really don't And I I can assure you that this is true for you as well For me you're saying or for the audience for you. Yeah, sure. It's definitely true for me Because you've been playing scaven for 25 years, right? Yeah, and they've had Very different rules for those 25 years. Well, I take that back for about 15 of them. They have the same rules But you know, wait, just so we're all clear one is the lowest Feel free chat to put your own weighting in the comments as well in the chat here Um, one is the lowest weighting five is the highest right five means it weighs a lot Your your ability to fall in love with an army one means it has very little weight on your ability No, at this point rules come and go rules mean very very little to me Because what I'm speaking about here, let me define this just clearly I mean like the given rules in the battle tone Right, so not the broader themes not the anything like that I mean the rules the allegiance abilities your book battle tactics your You know, whatever right like the uh points and the war scroll abilities and that like the crunch At the bottom of it, right? Okay That's what we're talking about anytime that I've fallen in love with rules The rules part of the army My love for that army has evaporated when those rules change Yeah, sure, sure Absolutely Like I love No rules is in play style. That's gonna be something later. We talked about this is like the printed physical rules Right like and how good or bad or whatever that they are Right, however, they align with you I Love certain aspects of doc When I started it And when we started painting right this was before we had a book right like we didn't have a book Let me remind you when we started painting doc. There wasn't a book. Sure. There was an announcement of a book I understand. I mean when I started iron jaws, it was like one page in the in the ghp. Because that's that's what we got at that time Right, but there were like there were war scrolls. There was there was a battle stone before there was uh your ghp rules Yeah, I understand. I'm just saying the iron jaws didn't have when I started collecting iron jaws. There wasn't a battle tone there was Like it it there was the non rules battle tone. Yes, you're right. There was the one with pictures Yes, yeah, and war scrolls had story and war scrolls, but it didn't have like army. It didn't have rules in it. Yes right, right so um, but Yeah, so like we started painting doc and then like I really got into it When rules dropped and they were just hard, right? Like I loved what they were doing and all that and then the rules changed and I was like, no I'm not really interested in this anymore Like I still like my army, right? And I still like what they are but um, but Again, whenever I put rules first um My love for the army ends up waning Okay. Okay. Yeah, there's some interesting answers here, right? uh Like the rules are what's like I'm being very trying to be clear here, right? It's the Literally what's written in that battle tone. Those are the rules, right? Like we know the battle tactics what your war scrolls is how much points your stuff cost that When you come to the army for the first time when you encounter the army for the first time And you encounter their rules. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah and so Like the cycle of corruption Is a very cool rule, right? It's rule. It's it's It is a rule and like part of liking rules doesn't just mean how powerful they are Although that's certainly how you could evaluate them It can also be like do you fall in love with something like this like the cycle of corruption Where it's so thematically On point with nergal where the rules align that can be part of it, right? That's still part of the rules But as you said the rules will change Right And I think that's that's part of the thing with me the rules are so ephemeral This is the challenge now theming and stuff like that isn't we'll talk about that later Right. We'll get into play styles and stuff like that What's a rule versus a mechanic versus a play style? There's no difference between a rule and a mechanic That's rules are mechanics a play style is something else. That's that's different That's a big broad set of like what the army can do and how it operates on the board and stuff like that In general way how it interacts with the human being the skill set is what a play style is Like what you can make it do right Um Like you can make it be a castle you can make it be an alpha strike or you can make it do these things It's not usually printed nowhere in storm the storm cast book Or sorry, let's make this more clear nowhere in the iron jaws book does it say you're an alpha strike army There's no allegiance ability that says alpha strike All your units can charge the enemy at the top of one You can just do that Right. That's not a thing. That's not a rule. It's an emergent play style That happens out of the fact that you have a lot of speed and you have right It's the incentive structures that have been baked into the into the mighty destroyers like so you can choose to play it like that Okay, that's a play style. That's why that's separate Right because again, you could play iron jaws like iron jaws could be an alpha strike army It could be an alpha bunker army It could be new different things right and some of these armies like scaven could be 50 different play styles or whatever Right, but those again, none of those are written down. Those are emergent properties of the the thing right okay And so here's what i'll say I think honestly tom I would rate this low but not as low as you're giving it. Okay Here's my defense for a two Here's why my rating is a two. I think you should round up to a two as well Because even though rules change and they do Okay over time When some rules are really good Are really on point Are really that thing that captures the genus a qua of the army They tend to stick around basically forever All right, like unless we leave aos and go to some new thing Completely like addition to addition. They just it tends to be there's some core identity That the rules still capture there might be variants isn't exactly how it works or when it works but it sticks When they nail it on the head it sticks And I think that those things that do nail it on the head that hit that sort of orthos appreciation so perfectly Right, I think those are impactful to you falling in love with an army overall So what I mean by this is like Stormcast teleportation like scions Okay, like as long as there are stormcasts They will have some kind of ability to come down from the heavens and lightning strike Because it just is stormcast. It's the way we were introduced to them All right, it is it is their thing. They ride the lightning All right, that's a rule that is an actual rule printed in the book And it has been printed in every version and it has different applicability and value and stuff like that But it's always a rule Okay, corn blood tithe Same thing All right, it's so perfect It's so exactly corn. It showed up basically from the beginning And it's stuck around all the time and will forever Because like it's one of those things that just has like a 90 percent of players think it's good Yeah And it's so it's become so endemic to the force itself That it it is it is one of those things that you can fall in love with and rely on That's what I would say Like sure, maybe 10 years from now or 20 years from now AOS goes away and we get whatever the next phase of this is right like We'll fantasy and then AOS and then some new thing the wheel goes around again Maybe then it changes, but that's a lifetime. Like if it's a if a rule lasts a generation That's good enough Yeah, I mean what I would say is this none of the armies that I fell in love with Uh have there been a core rule that's stuck around Yeah, I don't think every army has these but I like I think there are like some armies switch around a lot Right like look at slanesh. They still haven't cracked the code on it Right, you've tried to figure out what depravity is and what the locusts are and all this stuff and What everything changes every time because it just keeps being bad because no one just gets the simplicity Of hedonism. They're all british people. They don't understand hedonism Okay, that it's it's a misalignment They're the they're the wrong type of people to write a book about hedonism Hand it over to me. I got you Okay now The The thing about that is though Some armies you're right. They they like they move around But for many armies, they have hit it destiny dice In church, I I'm not gonna I am not gonna refute that some armies have done that I rate it as low as I do because that simply has not been the case for me That's fair enough Can I get you up to a two if we're thinking general rating? Can I get you up to a two? Or you're sticking with 1.5. All right. I'm sticking with one the reason and the reason why again the reason Is because this is how I rate them, right? I understand. Um, like I'm I'm not typifying the The the corporate experience I'm reflecting on my own experience and my own experience has been fairly consistent here All right, fair enough like again, I would have probably rated it lower if one didn't wasn't feel bad for me to rate something Sure, I understand I get it So I think there is something here to this like I think it's easy to say we'll rules change all the time So hence they're not very of very much value I think that is a potential read and a reason you don't want to over fall in love with any particular like War scroll or ability like oh, I love that Gartus projects a five inch wards bubble around him. Well like okay, he does now But next book he might do something completely different, right? He probably won't yeah, right You know, but like the eye of the gods or blood tithe or destiny dice or nergal cycle of corruption or right like uh Yes, I know Keith. I hate the 0.5. It's nonsense, but I can't get Tom off of it So I we're gonna let him do it. This is technically supposed to be a one two three four five rating with Tom's cheating already one one Fair enough. We'll move you down to a one There it is. All right You know, so like, uh And so I think that is Like but my point is when those things hit I think they matter They don't matter a ton, but I think they matter Also Caleb's in the chat. Hey Caleb known known zinch aficionado Caleb answered a five on this Caleb. You're a liar You're a liar I'm calling you out Okay Here's why I think it's not a five for you Caleb Because the rules for zinch Other than destiny dice, which have stayed very similar They've bounced around Over the the history of of so much has changed Sure, lots of things changed you had those agendas and then you didn't you know exactly how you cast and what bonuses you cast with And how much you care about casting and all that stuff and how much can you replenish fate dice? All that's changed Kairos always being in your army. They change his rule. He's no longer in Yeah, kairos could like set a die and then he couldn't and you know all sorts of stuff, right? And yet Every tournament I go to that I see Caleb at There he is Piloting zinch He might have changed the units right But Caleb loves zinch And and there's something about that has to be deeper than just the rules because enough has shifted That's like a ship of thesius problem Right that like every board is in every board in that army has been replaced at this point And like the mast that is destiny dice is still true. That's it. They they've kept the same mast At the other board and the hole has been replaced. Yeah Yeah Okay, all right So i'm just calling but even but even the degree to which Like those how those dice apply has changed Sure, sure. Yes, there are still dice But the degree to which they change what you can apply them to when you can use them Yeah, sure all of that is strange Yep, okay Uh Fair enough. All right. Let's let's keep going. This is number one of the big three Yeah, okay And oh, this is actually interesting. I want to hit on this real quick maxi I've seen it in 40k when my friend who plays deathguard a five plus feel no pain has been a plague marine thing since the 90s And with 10th they lack it and many longtime players are not liking it. Yeah, I can see that I can totally see that Because to me tom and I can I can give you let's move this out of warhammer for a minute over to another thing We're obsessed with that. We we we That we were regular and we have played for years and years. That's dnd Right. Yep. Yep Like if suddenly the wizard Didn't like have a spell book That he could like prepare spells from and wasn't a spell caster or something or some goofy thing Like if they if they made his magic totally different if he wasn't this sort of like vansian caster with a spell book that he You know can copy spells into that you find and stuff like that if that wasn't how you were saying it He suddenly went to like a mana pool. Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. Absolutely You'd be like, well, this isn't a dnd wizard anymore right And because and I'll I'll prove that because that's what happened in fourth edition for example um and the And like it just didn't feel like you were playing the thing. It just didn't um Because there's some amount of rules that are so core to the experience I want to point out to you vents That you were the one that was done with fourth edition not me That the primary wizard I played up to 30 30th level in second edition was a spell point wizard So all I'm saying is is that I don't necessarily agree that the rules have the same weight for me Maybe maybe But like even a spell point wizard still Still just took the concept of fantasy magic and dumped it into points I played a spell point wizard two at one point. It was fine Like it's a thing. Okay um but The But that is the wizard like the wizard is the thing Right like some there is some amount of rules. Fine. The fighter can't use marshal weapons He's a sneaky guy now Who relies on ambush? Is that still a fighter? No No, it's not like you can you can mince words with me here about the specific example But there is a core identity that rules will often form Where like they can change their exact application can change, but it's critical. It has to be there right Some version of it it has to be recognizable Otherwise the thing loses its identity. That's what I submit to you Okay, we'll see Uh At least as I'm again as a general thing people can fall in love with That is always going to be exceptions. Maybe you're the exception tom. I don't know Okay, and it doesn't surprise me that you play a spell point wizard because they were obviously bent and more powerful And you were just a little power gamer Uh, you were just a little power gamer We thought you were like the best player in the world when really you were just playing with the best gm in the world Who made you feel like the best player in the world? So that's what happened there Uh at any rate, okay Next up in the big three The models I mean right this is a war game This is part of it Part and parcel of it actually because otherwise we could all just use paper standees So this has to matter some right Uh So like here I mean I've I've got sigval the magnificent as my my image up here on this slide because I mean just look at him Just look at him tom. Look at his magnificence. It's incredible. It's incredible. Oh, I see his drip Absolutely so The models and here I mean uh The actual physical models that the army consists of right I don't think this is like a complicated thing to explain. I think we all get this one Okay, so Where are you at on this one and why I'm seeing a lot of high numbers here A lot of people trying to cheat going 10 out of five eights Can we go to 11? This is out of five five is the highest one is the lowest We're gonna keep this simple waiting at one through five five Okay, five right And why Because the identity of the thing is the thing Okay unpack that for me. Like I think I get what you're saying, but unpack that for me We only know what These armies are By what these armies are Right and so like if I talk about storm cast It's going to invoke a bunch of models Not war scrolls Yep, like if if I'm talking about the army you're visualizing what that army is You're visualizing units from that army. You're not visualizing numbers and paragraphs So the aesthetics of the thing inherently in a war game Um are associated with the identity of the thing Okay The medium is the message in that sense and so you can see what the identity of the thing is In the model itself. And so I have started armies purely on the existence of models Okay So scry said is it models or uh aesthetic models the physical models the thing Because I'm not talking about the art because that's another thing somebody somebody could push back on what you just said Tom and say like well, you know, there's also like art right there is like A bunch of art that are in these books and I could look at that and say like well, that's I picture some of that Like I mean I had I'm just going to jump back here real quick I had this awesome piece of art of yandrosta In this presentation and like the model does not look this cool This piece of art is 10 times cooler than the actual yandrosta model Right. And like this is what I wanted yandrosta to be the yandrosta we have is the yandrosta at home Right. It's the wish.com yandrosta compared to this. I know Andy wortell converted his yandrosta to be more like this and his is is fantastic Okay But here's the deal. Um You will spend 99 of your time 95 of your time with your army Painting it not playing Like the models themselves Are the thing This is why gw said they are a model company Their goal is to become the best model company in the world. Yeah By all accounts by the way, this has which I think they they are Quite well living up to in the scale. I don't think there's anyone who makes better models in the 32 mil scale area like it's not close um the the The thing about sort of Uh The models and what they're there like that their existence as a physical object that you can interact with right The fact that you have to paint them that you have to put them together that you do stare at them Intently while you're playing Right Yeah, I think gives them such an outsized weight. They're the fact that they are a physical thing Right. Yep. Yep. Like that is different than the ephemeral nature of just the art or the thing alone Right. And so what what's fascinating to me is that There are armies that I have not started Because I couldn't fall in love with the model as they were But when I figured out what that thing was that I had a problem with and when I changed it Oh, we'll get to that later But no, but that's when I fell in love with the model is it's because of the aesthetics It's because that that that thing suddenly was what I wanted it to be And so the actual like If I don't love the model In even the core chassis like I can't fall in love with the thing The grinning death masks of obr is just not my jam. I can't fall in love with that Right Yep, no, I get it. Absolutely It's the same way for for like the the example for this for me is myriad all three of the armies that I mentioned earlier. So Skaven Slanesh and iron jaws. I truly have like a deep and abiding love of all of the the models in that army Right. Um, you know, and like even though some Skaven models are old enough to like rent a car Like I I they've been with me for that whole time and at the time I thought they were pretty cool Right, they were just the coolest thing that was there at that time. They're they're awful Uh Now of course by modern standards, right? But I can still put myself back into the headspace I was in at that time and go I understand why I loved that then right why why that model stood out to me amongst what was available then or whatever So To me, I don't I don't know how this can't be The biggest thing our best information by the way says that um That the sort of number one determinative factor in a range is Succeed success. Yes. Like how well it sells Almost completely to do verse with the the models and how well they land with the community like how cool people They are That's it. Like the rules don't generally mean crap for sales numbers So it says a lot right So All right, so I like I think I'm with you on this as a five. I think I'm with you on this as a five Yeah, I don't know how it can't not be a five I could see arguments for it being like a four Because you could say well the models change over time too Right. I mean they do it's a slower time period than the rules, but they do Right, but what I would say is this is that when the models change that can then become a hindrance two players Sticking with the army. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. And then what ends up happening is either those players Kit bash or convert back to the old Or they or they walk fall in love with the new Or just walk away or walk away because it's not what it was and they can't and they can't get on board with the new thing Yeah Yeah, uh, I could give examples Sure, sure Yeah, I mean it's funny because as we talked about slanash and it's changing rules right And yet slanash throughout like it's its entire existence its aesthetic has always been so set And and like obviously there are there are different qualities to the sculpts Of sort of what you have if you go back to like original giant crab claw daemonets versus 1d as versus daemonets versus modern modern plastic daemonets, right But like as Conceptually aesthetically you're like, yeah, okay. It's basically the same thing Right like they they had it nailed. They just increased the quality of that thing, right I know a lot of people really love 1d as daemonets. I have some of them. I think they're okay They're not as good of an actual model as people make them out to be I mean what I'll say is that Correct, correct. Like if they had updated the daemonets Using those aesthetics Yes If they had kept the if they had if the if the actual current what should happen is we should get a new range of daemonets That are dynamically posed and holding and have some normal hands with with daggers and stuff Like the 1d as daemonets But like actually in scale because those things are small too. They they feel like they're like 25 millimeter. They're so small They are Yep So like they're small in their bad casts. I don't know what else to tell you I'm sorry everybody who has a deep love for them, but they're you know, yeah There we are. Okay They were like, uh, they were like, uh, a larial or box of hand babies They were great at the time that they were Right, right, right. Yeah, that's such a good example. If you go back if you go back and paint them, you'll realize They don't they don't hold up Like I love them for what they were but they don't know how to hold up anymore. Sure Uh, jonathan straw says would you feel the same if you didn't have isle of blood rat ogres because they are hideous And I refuse to run them. That's very funny. Um, so I have a lot of rat ogres Half of them are island of blood rat ogres, but half of them are not half of them are 90s metal rat ogres Which is what you should go back and buy Like the actual original original metal ones You should just go get those second hand because there were multiple sculpts back in the day that were actually really good Rat ogres and they're there you could kill a man with them, but they're they're fine So anyways, that would be my defense tom for why you could say it's a four, right? Uh, I I think you would be wrong. I think the right answer is five Sure, but I do agree that I think this has to be like a super determinative factor Right and again, remember you can have multiple fives like we could we could write everything a five It could be all this is equal and that's fine. They all wait equally Right. That's why we're doing waiting instead of like trying to force rank them or something, right? Yep. Yep Yep. Okay number three Number three in the big three The lore tom the lore the story What's the what's their thing in the world their place? Okay So this is The stories they're told about them the novels the stuff that the narrative They're sort of general place in the world, right? Like what is their what's their place in the broader ecosystem of the mortal realms? Or we're back in the old world or whatever right Okay What's it talks to me about your your relationship with the lore? it's a two okay, um because Anything beyond The hundred word summary. I'm just not interested in sure sure So like you're looking for like what's the top line? All right. Yes. This is a war game friends Um, I'm not here. I'm not here for their in-depth narrative and robust character development Like that's not what this is um It's a two It's not a one for me because there are some armies because of their narrative and because of their lore They are more interesting to me and because I see that needle move when that does happen That tells me that it's not a one Okay, but it's not high Uh, for example, I like flesh eater courts because they are the they are What happened to plutonia? Sure. They've got a cool lore. Right. Yes. They have cool lore Um, they were fully uninteresting to me until that lore piece came out and then I was like Okay, I can see it. I like I'm digging this I'm digging where this is going um So for a war game A two is what matters Okay It's interesting. I'll say the chat is surprising me over here Uh, because the chat is coming in hot. A lot of fours and fives lot lot lot of fours and fives um in this when everybody like people waiting this very very heavily um and I think that's really interesting I wouldn't have guessed that that many people keep keep putting in your numbers, by the way People who are who are who are doing this hit hit us with more numbers. I want to see if like It's It's so interesting Uh To me That so many people rate the lore so highly Uh, my honest answer is A three like this is sort of a middle of the road one for me. Okay Because I don't spend a lot of time reading the stories. I don't really care that much about the fluff or or the narrative or anything like that I tend to make up my own sort of story But I am deeply involved in Uh In like the general vibes and place in the world and Theming and stuff like that. I think all of that to me falls up under under lore Right like the fact that skaven live in this weird place between realities and can burrow through the mortal realms Right and just pop up and that there are little chaos engines that just ruin everybody else's plans And they're always, you know being super duper sneaky and stuff like that and getting in the mix um To me that's That's part of their lore right that's part of their story And it's really cool. It's one of the things I really like about the army um but At the same time I often just make up my own lore right my my city of sigma army is completely cut from whole cloth by me Right my rat cast are just completely by me Right And so steve tomah said my lore versus published lore. No, it's the published lore the stuff because you're falling in love with it You didn't go out and fall in love with your lore. You had to like the army You had to want to play the army had to be interested in it to some degree before you just started decided to start fan-ficking it right And so like And I see some people answering different for different armies Remember this is the waiting for how much lore works across the board to make you fall in love with the force right, so If you like it can't be a five and a two it has to be some number And then that either that lore is either better or worse Right and how it did like it didn't land for you But like if you answer a five ever on some force if lore made you fall in love with an army then it's a five And if other armies are lower, then they just didn't have as good a lore that grabbed you That's the whole point It didn't get its hooks into you the appreciation profile wasn't as high Right. It's a meta score You can't have different ones for different armies because it's it's scoring the potential Potentiality of this thing to make you fall in love with an army theoretically Right Okay Hey, what's up, uncle adam uh saying the lore is generally lousy and boring I I don't disagree with that, but there's a lot of people who seem to love it adam You're coming in hot into a four and five lore loving chat You know again. Yeah for me. It's like um It's neat because and the reason I still give it a three tom even though it is so surface level What I like when I say that story and that theming is because it still does actually matter A lot to me. Yeah Okay It does or does not it does it does like I when I feel like I can connect Sort of with an armies Again, like general story the vibes they give off their place in the world That does help me fall in love with the army. It matters But I don't care enough to like I'm not reading the the deep lore. Okay. I don't sit down When I wait, let's wait this way when you get a new battle tome You open it up. Where do you start reading? Uh, I start at the allegiance ability. Correct. I flip to whatever the match play section is and start reading Okay because Like I know the story. I don't need to know. I don't need more specific stories of individual people. I don't care. I don't care right Like it just doesn't matter to me right Yep, it's a but there's a but there is a holistic thing Uh, Ben Stafferton says vince is actually a rat who back stabs and sucks on glowing rocks. Is that what I'm hearing? I'm not gonna. I neither can can can either confirm nor deny that Uh, no, your right responses. That doesn't exist and that's just propaganda. Sure. Yeah, exactly Uh, we got a lot of people here say like cinderfall says I read the lore first rule of cool Says I read the whole thing front to back a lot of people saying they love reading it I think our audience tom would is is way more into the lore than us. That's the answer We got some we got some we got some lore minds here. And you know what that's fine Yeah, no, I I don't think there's a right answer here. I was just curious as to what our numbers are I think to me these are the big three, right? Um For me like it's hard to go deeper than vibes Right, but I still say a three Uh, and then what was your number tom? I'm sorry Uh, two two. Okay. Yeah, we're not that far off Okay But I am I love this I'm I'm so Uh, I'm so fascinated by how many people really get into the story and the lore and the individual details of it That's really that's it's cool Like it's cool that people really Dig the lore to that level. I can't bring I can't bring myself to like I don't know it doesn't grab me In the same way And it's funny too because like a narrative event I love a narrative event. I'm all about a narrative event. I know you love them too Right. Yep. Yep, because telling my own story. I'm like, yeah, I'm here for that. Let's do that Right. I'm ready. I'm ready to fanfic the heck out of this Right like right. Yeah, let's let's go Right that part of it. I really love like telling a story with my friends Right with my own army or with my conversions or whatever, right? I just don't care what they wrote Right, I don't care what some pasty british guy Said was the story of this army the specifics of it. Yeah, that's not some individuals did Yeah, no, I'm good So like But I love when we like we play a lot of narrative games and tell fun stories and stuff like that And we go to a lot of narrative events. I I love all that stuff And maxi. Yeah, that's why I've got to keep it a three because maxi said my question is would you collect an army Who's lore you actively disliked? I don't think I would That's just it. I think that's why it's a three for me. It has to be a breakpoint in the middle Because I really don't think I would Right Yeah So, uh Bronu says not sure if you're heading this way, but there's a certain force multiplier With lower models and rules where they actually fit together and so cohesion across these big three is important Yeah, the sort of I guess that'd be a sort of melvin principle, right? Um Where like everything seems to work in synergy and I agree with that like if you can We're we're taking these kind of apart, but if you bang on all three of the the big If you're if you're banging on all cylinders in the big three I do think that this can that that that I think more people will fall in love with it Basically, yeah, certainly So if we go back to the original list that people dropped in let's talk about the original list people dropped into the chat Okay so A lot of gets A lot of storm cast A lot of nergal slaves to darkness right Yeah, a lot of corn And when you look at those a lot of those we mentioned Did hit Uh On all three cylinders Yep, right. Yeah, a lot of them had endemic rules that felt very like that you clearly identified with them A lot of them had Uh like amazing models that are just great. Yeah Right and a lot of them have really cool story to them Like admittedly gets things like gets you look at their stories. It's fun The vibe of the army's fun the place their place in the world is fun Their little individual stories where they show up is fun Right, so they're kind of banging on all cylinders, right? Okay All right, cool All right, so that's kind of that's kind of where we are Uh A lot of chat seems to hint that vibe themes don't work without some form of subjectively good established lore I don't know I don't know because I think vibes can go a long way in lore I was actually going to make a slide that was just called that was just vibes, but I realized it's just lore That's all that's all that vibes is just Yeah, because I think about Something like slanesh And there are narrative elements of slanesh. I really enjoy like celesk I really like celesk But I don't read a lot of stories about celesk. Like I get it. They're cool. They're a couple and Part of their excess is their care for each other Like even though demons and these things can't actually care for each other and what we would recognize as love They do they love each other and they care for each other, right? Yeah, and they have this for this relationship And That's pretty awesome. Like it's a neat little thing, but I don't need to like go read a story about them No, right. No, I'm good Like again the high level give me the headline cool That's a cool thing. All right. That's what I'm looking for. What are the cool things? Like, yeah, that's a cool thing Yeah So so that's me Okay Cinderfall says, uh, this is an interesting point. Let's let's this is probably a good thing to last discuss is the lore That's actually a really good call to Cinderfall He says so something interesting is the number of time or things you see people Complaining about with a os or the number one thing you see people complain about with a os Uh, is that they hate the a os world replaced fantasy lore not the game The world that was is missed the most. Um, maybe I don't know if I still see that now But I think most people have probably calmed down, but yes I mean it is still it's sort of the thing that you're still around to complain about because the game is good um and That's a good point. I always thought the old world was trash Uh, and boring I Didn't really care about the adventures of not England France and their not in their fights with not the holy roman empire and Uh, not at lannis and not mezzo-american lizard people Yeah, I I was good pretty good um I think the only little again the only thing that I thought was interesting in the old world was scaven. So hey there we go Um, all right, but to each their own let's solve very personal. I'm not telling you. It's bad. I'm telling you I never caught into it Uh, all right the rest Let's talk about some other elements here tom because I think those are the big three I don't think those are the only three I think there's other things that can matter and can really like when you're trying to fall in love with an army See, here's the thing. There's a lot of armies that will like But for it to be your favorite for it to be something you play with for 25 years I think there has to be more That's my supposition, okay So can I can I throw one out there that is That you may not have thought of or I know it's not going to rank high in your rating, but for me is With with probably a four Okay Uh It's nostalgia Okay, nostalgia is the hell of the drug Sure, and you're right. This is the guy in my list nor would it matter to me Right, you're right. You're right, but I love high elves because of nostalgia And not anything related to warhammer tabletop I understand because of age of reckoning Age of reckoning. That's exactly right because of my experience here and actually Most of the reasons why a lot of the armies took for me is that they resonated deeply with something from age of reckoning Okay So whether it be high elves or whether it be like gets Right, or whether it be Uh tomb kings all of those is because of these just beautiful wonderful memories with my friends that I had right And every time I paint one of these models set it on the table Like echoes, you know, like I I hear I hear the resonance here And And that's a big reason why something like Lumineth didn't do it for me Is because is that like Because there is some aspect of the original thing that got lost Um, and it wasn't resonating anymore Yeah Okay So nostalgia is for me Like that's that is one of those pieces Interesting. Yeah, I don't I I don't I don't uh, I'm not on that memberberry train Uh, when I see a thing I don't clap Uh, you know like fan services. It's doesn't really do it for me. Um, I get I get that So Do you know the kind of fan service I like tom? This isn't nostalgia I like fan service that this is sort of like because I wouldn't rate it as nostalgia. I do like clever references though Do you watch the dragon prince tom? I don't you've tried to get me to watch it a couple times. You should I don't know how you're not watching it It's like the perfect show to watch with your kids for god's sakes You actually have children you have an excuse to watch this show because it's clearly aimed at a young audience But I love it. Anyways, it's on netflix okay In the most current season of dragon prince, this is going to connect just stick with me In the most current season of dragon prince, there's a character that's sort of Trapped inside their own head in a kind of like little nightmare world as these episodes are progressing And there's a moment where the character is in this room and the room is all red And one of the other and so there's a bunch of other characters from the normal show in this trapped in his little mind world, right And one of them is like speaking very low and backwards And then another person another character walks in and has like as it's like Oh, your your child is here and then she takes off the little swaddling blanket and it's a log And she's like see the law she's like your child is just fine And she's like petting the log And then another little of the characters comes in and starts like doing this weird dance Okay, do you know what this is a reference to? I don't this twin peaks Okay, got it. Yep And the fact that this ostensible kid show Had recreated the red room From twin peaks Just blew my mind. I was like, this is a deep cut Right, and you didn't need to know that had nothing to do with the plot But I was like, I love this show so much more now because because somebody did that right like what a fun thing to grab Right, and it's not like that wasn't an nostalgia trip. It was just like what an effort to go to right For a super deep cut. I like it when people put something in that's for like 0.1 of the audience or something Yeah, anyways So and you can do the same thing like GW designers will sometimes do the same thing in their models Right Where they'll they'll have these little references in the models that go back to You know, sculpts from the 80s from the 90s to things like that to early parts in the game that came back to older characters So they they will do that stuff. So on that level, I get it Right, I just think the like surface aesthetic of like of nostalgia doesn't land for me Like just being the thing isn't enough Yep, and I and I knew that like I know that that's like that that's where you live and that's fine Sure. Yep Okay All right, so here's number one of the rest Play experience and npe Okay So here what I mean is like Play experience what I'm trying to capture here is is the army easy to play does it Uh, does it is it like stressful to play doesn't have a lot of you know, sort of weird interactions or things that like Uh, just make it like difficult to to play correctly Does it cause a lot of npe to your to your foes? Does it make for a good game where you're happy to actually sit down and play five rounds? Like what is the general play experience, right? And that can be a that can be some measure of of complexity of of npe of a lot of different factors like that okay, so So where do you sit on this one like what do you well first of all, what do you think about this and where do you sit on it? All right, what's your what's your thought on this? I don't know. Like I'm real neutral on it. Like I don't feel strongly on it is what I would say You like a high complexity experience. I think number I do I do you do not give a crap about npe for your opponents No, because we're playing we are we have a mutually agreed upon Like we have agreed upon this game and the rules of this game and whatever rules have been created by this game That's not my fault. That's that's the rules creator sure sure and and so yeah, I don't care about npe That's not a thing Okay Um, what is a thing it's just a thing you don't care about but I get what you mean It's not a thing Sure sure Uh Okay So so what's your what's your rating then what where you where are you placing that? Uh, I don't know. I'm somewhere in the middle, right? Like a three Is that a three to you? Okay. Yeah Tom is a grixis player confirmed tom. What's your favorite color combo? Uh, of course, it's it is grixis. Yes, you are correct. It's out of them. So it is He's a known grixis lover. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, like my my one of my favorite ducks is a nickel ballast deck Like yes, I just all of the nickel ballast is right like yes. Yes. Yeah Just grixis good stuff. Um, okay so For me, I think I would put this one at like a four probably I rate it pretty high, but not as high as the models Um, I don't generally like an army that causes a lot of npe for my opponents, but it's not But that can be varied a lot You know, some people just some people find certain experiences to be npe And and some people don't and like you can't you can't account for everything that you're going to run up against every opponent, right? Um But it matters if something is just kind of obviously crappy And obviously crappy play experience. I'm just like nah, I'm not into it You know, like I've I would never use total eclipse, for example Right, I just wouldn't cast it. It just doesn't have an interest to me that kind of thing. Oh, man That would just that that is just a class ability that exists Yeah, I I understand I get it. I get what you're saying But to me like I look at that and go that's dumb I hate it and I just don't I don't play armies with things. I hated them, right? Sure. Sure now at the same time I also don't like an overtly complicated Experience for my own play experience Right. Um, yeah, things have lots of really annoying Triggers and and sort of memory loops and fallbacks and stuff like that I'm just like, uh, you know, that's that's not too great Um It doesn't matter everything. I I I'm between a three and a four on this But I'm I'm gonna say a four. I'll stick to my my whole numbers, right? Yeah Because Yeah, it just To me, I think it matters a lot We got a lot of people now talking a lot of people voting for jund as the best color combo jund jund jund I mean don't get me wrong. I like lots of color combinations. I don't know that jund is a pop No, that would be like my number bottom Okay, uh, all right, so Uh Yeah, so let's see I'm gonna go ahead and say it's a four Tom out of three. Okay. I think this one matters though, right now. This can this can change Over time. It's one of those things that is quite fluid But I think it matters um Yeah, okay Let's talk about another one tom. Here's here's a here's a good one Uh All right Uh, you're gonna get everybody tired of mother favorite three-color colamos now in the chat. All right, uh, all right You ready for this one tom? Yeah Okay size of the model range All right Okay So Yeah, how much does it matter? Let's start that like I just i'm i'm interested for your take on this one. What do you think? I think it's I think it's a two to me. Okay It's just not as big of a deal as you might think it would be Okay Uh, hold on one second here Dana said a better definition of love and army is needed something you truly love and would classify as Either your favorite army or the you would you would and will continue to play for years and years and years and years And we'll just stick with you like it identifies with you it has become entangled with your soul There you go. That's what I mean. How about that? Entangled with your soul. It's a bold statement. I think that's absolutely true for the three armies. I named Like that you person identify with it in some way. Yeah, right? No, I mean, you're wrong. Yeah, like yeah We are dedicated war gamers identify with armies people show up dressed as orcs. They yell Wa right or whatever like these are people who are who are identifying with a thing. They have fallen in love with a thing Right in whatever way that means Okay, and they want to play it. They want to be in it. They're they're here for it Okay All right size of the model range go back to that one tom. Where are we at? I like it too Like it's just it's not that determinant for me like if it's only four models I'm gonna have a problem But like if it's a 30 model range that doesn't bother me Like a 30 unit range Like I can live in that space. That's fine. Sure So I this one I thought about this because I think this could matter Uh to some people for sure Right, uh But I I think for me, this is actually a one I looked at my armies. I thought about this a scaven Maybe the biggest model range still in production right as far as number of war scrolls are up there Right. It's like the top three Slenesh decently high number of of of scrolls like quite quite a lot of units, especially with the the most recent round of models iron jaws seven models Right None of that Matters to me at all and that's just it's a ratio says size the model range is the same as how many war scrolls. Yeah, basically I mean Basically, yes, because 70 war scrolls in a book is definitely a no. Thank you. Yeah, that's just it like I don't I don't care You can have 70 war scrolls. You can have seven war scrolls. It just it doesn't impact me at all Yeah I think there are other sort of downstream consequences like it's harder to not have dead units and trap units and stuff like that The more war scrolls you have. Yeah, I would agree with that But I think at the same time some people really value a big range. They look at something like cities Or slaves to darkness and they're like, man, I love I love everything about it. I love that I can just like have You know Six units of chaos warriors and they're all different, right? These are my Nurgle cast wires over here and these are my unmarked cast wires and and whatever whatever whatever, right? Yeah. Yeah um So I I think that it can cut both directions is my point So it's really just a question of like how much it matters to you right And for some people having a lot more options more models in the range means more fun Thanks to paint more fun lists to build all that kind of stuff, right? Whereas for some people they look at and they're like, oh, it's too many It's overwhelming like that the sort of paradox of choice kicks in and it's painful Yeah Uh, so I do think this can break both directions, but for me, it's just nothing. I don't care Are the models good? It's kind of all I'm looking at right Yep, uh, yeah I would agree with that Yeah Rule of cool wargaming says I can swim in this army for years and not have everything. Okay Yeah, so I think that's that's the positive view of this, right? The negative view of this is the the it overwhelms me Right. Yeah, I like I think both are fair. By the way, it's not that one of those is wrong It's just like where you personally sort of live and how you deal with the paradox of choice So for me, this one's a solid one Like I just don't care Tom. Would you say two for you? Yeah, a two Okay Can you can you picture a range that's sort of too small Or too big for you to collect like would you not collect? Let's take storm cast and iron jaws, right? The sort of two ends of the poles right now as it were Are those in some way again not the determinative factor we're doing waiting here, right? But is there some amount of that that's less appealing to you because it's so many scrolls Not really Or so few Yeah, not really Okay Yeah, it's just it's not that big a deal. Okay. Like if I'm being honest, it's just it's not All right easy enough All right, Tom here we go the next one Uh, I don't know. I think this one I I should really I shouldn't call this ease What do I want to say like? Uh Yeah, that's what I mean. That's I'll I'll try to unpack this I called this ease of painting but what I really meant was just ease and ability of painting because like there's there's two sort of dimensions to this Low floor high ceiling Right. Okay, so let me just talk storm cast for a minute. I think storm cast or no, let's do nergal. That's that's just an easy one Nergal is very fun for a brand new painter to paint with contrast paints Right. Yep. Yeah, nergal models also regularly win golden demons because they're great for high-end painters to display their skills on Yeah, that's true. Okay. So low ceiling or sorry low floor high ceiling Yep, okay. That's what I'm trying to capture here. That's that's what I'm I'm after So how much does this matter? To you Tom as as you're thinking about an army because this is different than the models, right? You can look at the model and go that's beautiful, but I don't want to paint that I've run into that before Yeah, fire slayers. Um what I would say is like this is a three for me. This is another middle of the road It really is because it is there is an influence and I can see it like ogres Like I'm just not interested in painting those models Right and it's and it's certain. It's it's all the flesh of those and it's ironic because I did fire slayers, right? But they're also smaller, right? Like and so doing smaller is easier, especially when I was doing like I did freehand over most of them Yep, right. And so I didn't have to do the normal muscle insurance stuff like that. So like it is certainly a factor for me Yeah, and the reason I separated this out from the models the reason I do think this is different is I I could give an example Let me see if this sells Okay I think That a lot of the new zinch models are really really beautiful Okay okay I do not enjoy painting them. I do not have fun with them. I do not like painting them I do not think they either are easy to paint nor do I think they let me Nor do I think they align and let me like show off in some way or something whatever. I can't stunt on them Okay, sure. Yeah I just find them annoying to paint even though aesthetically when I look at them And somebody's done an amazing job with it or somebody who does find it to be rewarding has done something cool with them I look and go that's cool Right, that's a cool model. Yeah Okay, so that's where I would lever like that's why I think these two concepts can be levered apart Right. Yeah. Yeah Um, yeah paint ability. Thank you. Yeah. Dana said paint ability. I think that's right I think that's that's the sort of summary of what I'm going for here Honestly for me Buddy, this is like a four This is big This matters a lot to my overall Uh, to my overall like love of an army I Have talked about many times how much I love painting scaven Yeah How like if I'm Tired and don't know what to paint I'll just pick up like a claw lord or some similar scaven hero and paint it Yeah, and I just enjoy it. It's they they're something about their little rat bodies Is just like always rewarding for me to paint. I can't explain why I I couldn't put it into words Except to say it is a rewarding experience for me Right. I could understand that And It's the same for all of the ranges Right, uh, that I that I'm in love with like iron jaws was such a fun army to paint I really had a good time like I love doing orc scan. I love the Doing all the yeah, I did all the freehand everywhere on all of my, you know iron jaws Plates and stuff, right? I just I like the design. I like the texture. I like it just something about it clicked with me Right and and iron jaws are another one of those that I think are very friendly to new painters But also like you see extremely high-end jobs, right? You know like the mega boss has been multiple mega bosses that have taken home demons and stuff like that, right? Yeah, totally So So again, I think it has that that low floor high ceiling thing Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm I could see that So that's like to me This is a hugely determinative factor When I look at a model range and think to myself am I going to enjoy painting this It's a huge part of whether or not I want to collect it whether or not I like it whether or not I end up falling in love with it Yeah, I could see that And and so that's like I've got to like the model first then want to paint it next Right, those are the two it sounds stupidly obvious, but it's sort of the two steps LRL is another army that I think looks actually pretty cool, but I don't want to paint that I think that sounds that looks awful Yeah So yeah, okay, that makes sense. All right. So for me before Uh, oops What's your waiting here tom? I'm sorry. What was your vote? Uh, three three. Okay. So still pretty heavy. Could do you have any armies for you? Where you're like, I like it, but I wouldn't want to paint it Do you have anything like I mentioned for my two where they're like you look at the models and you're like, yeah, that's cool But I don't want to actually paint that Uh Probably zinch It's taken me so Like I have a zinch. You keep chewing around that as like wanting to do a thing But you just can't get paint on the models as I agree I think you actually I think you very much suffer from this problem was zinch Because you've been talking about wanting to do this army forever Yeah, like at least four years like I have most of what I need in box. I do um, the challenge I have is that Um, the the models like that are beautiful, but they're just such a pain to paint. Yeah Yeah, that's what I would say. Yep. I think I I think this is way more heavy than a lot of people give it credit for Right And this is the thing that I think I I hope the sculptors keep in mind. I know some of the sculptors certainly do Is like how paintable is the model? And I think sometimes when the when the sculptors are just trying to like show off Right and show the incredible nonsense you can pile on You end up getting models that are very pretty but very unpainable That no one's going to actually fall in love with in the long term because they're just such a nightmare to actually paint Yeah, I worry about that a little with some of the new city's models Is my honest answer Yeah, I could see that Some of them are look, uh, that's funny. Tyler just said the new city's models look great But man, that looks like a chore to paint. Yeah, exactly I think cities might end up falling into this into this space for for a good deal of folks Very possible. Yeah Yep Waffles and joy are said paint ability. What's that every Quote every 3d printing patron ever. Yeah, exactly exactly like yeah 3d printing patron patreons are so So well, so just like this is such a known Uh disease that is infected the 3d printing patreon world where it's just like over designed to high heck and back, right? Yeah So, yeah, okay all right next one variability of lists Okay, I got one more tom. All right, so this is this is your play style question All right. Yeah, how many different play styles how many different variable play styles and lists Can you put on the table? But it's more than just play style Right It's how many different interesting ways. Can you use all the different pieces in the army? So can you play an alpha bunker or an alpha block or an alpha assault? Can you play a castle? Can you play a gun line? Can you be it did it did it, right? Can you play a board control? Uh, you know a skirmish hit and run all these kinds of things but also Can you have a lot of different units in your lists like build your lists in different ways tilt more hero tilt more more units Right, uh, like what's the the viability of doing all of those things? Right and not just having to be like utter trash Right, okay, right doesn't have to be great doesn't have to be a 5-0 tournament winner It just has to be not utter trash, right like in that as in there as a joke Okay Yeah, I would say three to four for me Like it doesn't need to um, it doesn't need to have A lot of play style, but it but flexibility does influence me and I know it does Yeah So yeah, like did you run into it? So I want you to think about this one in terms of ko specifically in the history with this so Reflect on this in terms of ko and talk about it for a moment Yeah, I mean what I would say is this it Like I fell in love with ko before they had a book Like I bought it and I made very serious financial commitments to that line before I had my eyes on rule Um But my ability to continue to play it competitively It forced me often forced me into boxes that I just didn't want to play Um, and so I chose not to and so it it didn't so to be clear like it didn't it didn't Refrain me from loving or falling in love with the army, but it did keep me from playing Okay And so that's why I say a three to like it's probably a three Because I can see I can see you know, I can see push and pull on both sides of this. Yep. Um Like there are some army There are some uh armies that I just can't play because they are just uninteresting to me for all the play styles that they That they engender sure sure And so Um, and even when there's a flexibility if there's a certain like lean in their play style It's very possible that I'm just not interested Okay, all right fair enough For me, I think I'm in the same place you are I think this is a three for me and it's interesting because I've seen a lot of three fours fours stuff like that I think a lot of people are in the same place Yeah, when I like I think for me This is one of the things that I've always fallen in love with for scaven because a consistent thing about scaven Has always been back to their earliest days That the variability of lists and play styles was really high again Now which one of those was like the best or the most competitive or blah blah blah that that's gone all over the place Even in particular editions But you always felt like it's cool that you could do like the all pestilence army You know like the army itself lends it to these different play styles. This is going to be my castle scaven This is going to be my hit and run ambush. He's scaven right and and so on and so forth, right? This is board control. This is my alpha bunker list. Whatever whatever My null deploy list Okay And I do agree with sickness who says this is strongly correlated to the size of the model range It's not it's not directly. It's not a direct causality, but it's often correlated. Yes. I do think that's correct Yeah you know The but yet iron jaws if you looked at like all of my lists with iron jaws, they vary some here and there Right, like it's not I vary them around a little Sure extra unit of brutes extra unit of pigs extra Mega boss on foot right like yeah You know, okay, but it's not but that again that's a seven War scroll army. So you think okay, there's there's that direct correlation kicking in right But if we go to something like slanesh, I'm not interested in all the other play styles they've had on offer All right, I'm not actually like it has actually a Quote unquote theoretically some amount of versatility right now or variability in different play styles, but I'm not interested in that I want to run keepers of secrets And I want you know, I want to run these things and that's the thing I want to do Because those are the things I really enjoy Right. Yeah, like there's a certain Number of units and like it's not it's not that I don't vary it. I don't vary it to zero percent I don't have like a 2000 point list Right, but there's a set of like 3000 points ish or something Of units that just I think are cool and are the models I've fallen in love with and so my army is just like Moving around in that band Yeah, right, and I'm not I'm not doing the other list. I'm not doing the other play styles and that's fine with me Right, I'm I'm okay with that like I don't I don't need it to be that variable. I don't need to have that experience It sucks when it's when all of the things I want to play are bad Right when the current rules are like that But I still but my love of the army still shines through because again the models are there The the lore and vibe is there You know like these other things we've talked about are all hitting Yeah, right. Yeah So even though the range is actually decently sized. I don't care about the variability. It doesn't actually matter much to me That's fair Yeah, so are we are we both at a three on this one? Yeah, I think so. Like I said, I think it's somewhere there in the middle Yep Okay Cool. I think that's fair I do think it's interesting though because I could see this one for certain people, especially very johnnyish people Being a hugely determinative factor Right, I think there's a cohort of players out there who really value that every time they rock up to the table they can just like totally different list Right, like this is that there is a hundred points of overlap between, you know Any five games they play? Right. Yeah, and that's what they want Right. That is incredibly cool to them and they want to collect the big range They want it. So they're my guess is the people who would rate this high Would also be very high on the size of the model range Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably true Yep, yeah Okay All right. Last one tom Kit bashing and convertibility. I don't think either of these are actually words, but you know what I mean PowerPoint is telling me neither of these are words But that's okay. Uh, it's a three for me All right Unpacked give me some more. Yeah. So what I would say is this Like originally my gut was oh, this is a real big deal for me. Okay And then I realized you have some pretty heavily converted armies I do and then My most recent recent large project Was knight haunt Which is one of the most unconvertible armies in warhammer Sure, like if you look at the sculpts Sure There's just not that much there you can cut some weapons off or something But there's not much you can do with them Which is what I did like I converted all of my weapons because that's the only thing that I could do You're not doing head swaps You're not doing like there's no arm body swaps really. Yeah, sure and yet I I loved it and I love that project and so like so the fact that those models weren't very convertible wasn't that big of a deal Okay Um, and so that like sometimes when the models hit they just hit and they don't need to be converted Okay And so for me, I think this is another three All right, like I don't have to do a lot of work here Yeah I had to think really deeply about this one for me And do you know what my answer is tom? No, I don't enlighten me It's a one I don't care at all Yeah, because you'll just you'll just carve the model if you need to Like what I mean by that is I don't feel the need So there's a lot of people who put fives in the chat and there's a lot of people who put ones in the chat And I I'm betting that's not uncommon Because I think there are a lot of people who really like to convert and make each army their own and like That's Totally fair, right? I'm not in any way bashing on those people. I think that's amazing And several of my armies Are highly converted Sure, right my city of sigmar is built from scratch and cobbled together from 40k stuff and and tip-bash plastic card and 100 things like it's it is it is Cut from whole cloth Yep, it is as convertible as one can do. Yeah, there is no other city's army in the world That's like mine right is literally completely unique okay, yep So that's that's the far end of it then you have stuff like my Rat cast or my giants where I've I've done Integrated other things right so like all my stormcasts have red heads and have iron halos and have Scape weapon swaps and stuff like that or pretty simple conversions. They have tails. I love tails Where are my giants have the integrated technical components because they're frankincinian monsters, right? So that's what you might think. Oh, that's really important to you then right and then I look at my armies like like slanesh Not a conversion to be found there that is open the kit assemble the kit paint the model It was perfect from the jump. There is no change needed Zero sure right sure. Yep And then there's skaven stuff where Sometimes I converted sometimes I don't most the models are stock every so often. I'll do a weird thing Yeah right And what occurred to me was this Just doesn't actually matter to me at all like I will just sometimes do it because the muse takes me and I have an idea But but when I look at my three armies, oh my iron jaws are basically like my mega boss is Is the actual mall crusher is super converted but all the other models are straight. It's just yeah fruits and and pigs and stuff and In all of those cases from like no conversion to minimal conversion to fully converted Yeah, it does not it doesn't influence you. Yeah, it just didn't influence me at all in my overall love of the army It made it it influenced my love of the project Does that make sense? Yeah, it does it does like working the city's project Doing that as a project as a something with the beginning and an end Was more fun than I had doing most of any other army because every new unit was a chance to just like What crazy things am I going to need to do? What's my Plastic card and you know swaps and what kits am I going to pull together? It made for a fun puzzle On every kit, right? Sure. Sure But it didn't overall influence my true love of the army. It just made me love that project And have a fun time. Sure. It makes sense Yeah, slanesh and skaven and and soon when I have big pig and hopefully other new iron jaws models like I add to those armies Over like I've been adding to my skaven for 25 years and I won't hopefully stop for another 25 I'm still alive. We all know I've only got 12 years left, but still Okay Yeah, um, like I'll just continue adding to those forever because I deeply love them If they make models, I'll buy them and paint them Sure. All right I have no desire to make any more cities models None because I finished that project Yeah Right. Okay. Yeah. Does that make sense? And You're saying that city is finished or could you imagine revisiting it in the new And painting like the new city stuff Yeah, maybe the new city stuff doesn't really super grab me But but like let's imagine a world where they came out with new cities models and they were like they they hit for me exactly Okay Sure, but it wouldn't be anything integrated into that city. It'd be effectively collecting a new army Yeah, and that's fair, right Yeah So like I had the it was a it was a set project. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to make this army I want it to be this thing. I did the thing. It's done Yeah, I will never add another model to that army That's kind of like my doc like I just I like what I did I painted the models that I wanted There are more models in the range, but they don't really grab me. It's not really the play style that I want I think I'm done Yep. Yeah Yeah, I mean my doc doc is in the exact same place for me. It's so funny like yep I got it. It's done. I painted what I wanted. That's my force. It's there. It's on the shelf. I like it Yeah, did it I have no desire to add any more models to that doc doubt. I ever will Yep All right But I I I think for some people this is like a huge deal because they look at it and like They have a real built-in desire to make the army their own And so how How convert ready Whatever convertible Would you say is it convertible? Or customizable Sure sure sure better word. Yes. There you go Absolutely I think that's exactly right Yes, I think for some people that matters like a lot Yeah, I think so Right Yeah, okay. Cool. Did we miss anything you mentioned nostalgia earlier? Is there anything We missed is there anything I didn't touch on in here that you think like any other ephemeral qualities That you think would would would would make you fall in love with an army call it your favorite army Be something that gets you know entangled with your identity as it were Yeah, again, nostalgia is one of those that I think that you That you didn't mention then that would be meaningless to you that for a lot of people like it is the driving Thing sure like they want to collect They want to do slaves to darkness now because they had a sixth edition You know like they've been away from the game for 20 years and they had a fifth edition Slaves army and they want it. They want that again. Sure. And so they're capturing their childhood in that sense, right? Yeah, I I like I think that that is a big factor But other than that, I don't really see like I think that we've hit most of the the main things Yeah Okay Cygnus maximus says yeah, by the way chat if you've got anything I missed here. Let's see Uh, Cygnus says sometimes color scheme is what does it? You can paint things however you want But some armies have such iconic colors I don't I think that's an interesting one. It's probably in the in the paintability section But it is interesting because I get what he means there have been like armies do sort of have a color palette often Right. Yep. Yep And If you don't like those colors, like yeah, you can you can buy an army and paint a different color That's fine. Like we you can all paint paint your models however you want, right? Like obviously this is aos. Yeah, yeah, okay Uh, we're not 40k here and we're that's so you can paint your models however you want all the time But if you don't like Or brown The nergles probably not for you Right, like you can you can shift things around, you know, whatever whatever You can throw some purple in there. Yeah, no, like again. Yeah, like I've been in purple Yeah, but um, but I agree like you don't see a lot like in general, that's the minority Yeah Oh, what did we wait kit bashing in convertibility? I know I waited at a one. What did you wait it? I'm sorry. I got three as well. Like it can be influential, but in general um I mean, but what I would say is this, um Um Like you don't see a lot of red nerf Sure, sure like we're actually crossing over you see a lot of chaos armies that will go into the neutral So what I mean by that is like, you know, I've seen a lot of like bone colored corn armies Yep, yeah, right, but you don't see corn crossover into like Uh sickly yellow green very often no or purple pink very often slanesh colors, right or bright blue zeezy colors, right? Uh Oh, I know Ben Staffordson. I'm just saying like there's a lot of there's a lot of people at a lot of game stores who will get very angry at you if your Marines are painted the wrong color or whatever. There are silly reasons. I'm not making a joke You will get the arm actually Those people are what we call fun killers And you should not pay attention to them no matter what game you're playing but um Yeah, so like you don't see them there there is even though we know we can paint these models however we want, right? there is like Some thing in most people's brains that says like well, you can't turn the corn Blue that's then there then there's each Right, right and what and what I would actually say is that like it's in kind of the zeit and when people see that it feels off Right Yeah, there's sometimes like whoa, what's going on there whereas some armies are much more neutral right like you can I would argue if you've got iron jaws I've seen iron jaws in every their armor plates in every flavor under the imagination All right. Um now here's the one thing I'll say about orcs in general. I've seen plenty people do green skin orcs and and blue skin orcs and red skin orcs and orange skin orcs but But I don't see people do flesh tone be that Lighter or dark skin I was gonna actually say that like like you don't see a lot of like Pinky mole rat Orcs or Yeah, by the way, that could be any anything from like Caucasian to African skin tones the whole panoply Just don't tend to see like human flesh tones. I guess is what I would say, right? Yeah Uh, but man, how horrifying would that be? You can go the other direction. I've seen plenty of ogres turn into orcs Right to get green skin. Yeah Yeah, but like the idea something about that just broke my brain when I when I tried to picture like Human skin toned orcs. I was just like, whoa, that is weird Right Uh, like something about that is weird. No, no, they're supposed to be green or red or orange orp Something, right? That's fine. There may be a fun thought experiment here of like figuring out where our boxes are And exploring breaking them Uh, odd many said yep. I wasn't a fun killer till flesh colored orcs was said. Yeah, exactly Exactly like or goblins tom imagine it on goblins like the the the weird nightmare When was the last time that you saw skeletons that weren't bone colored? and weren't metal Black I've seen plenty of like like like jet black Skeletons I've seen that look too Okay, like like like the charred bone look right sure, but if you mean like turn them red Or yellow like a hue Right as opposed to uh, too as opposed to a neutral tone, right? No, very rarely. You're right metallic or bone colored or or like Black the pure white to black spectrum, right? Yeah, right, right um Yeah, it's a it's a wonderful thought experiment of like what boxes have we created for Yeah, right like what are the we say you can paint anything however you want, but boy, there is something there There's some lines that we're just like No, that's not that might be that might be another show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting That's really interesting like what are our sacred cows and ales? Yeah, sure uh Like oh my god Glossy flesh colored squigs not writing that. Yeah, exactly, right? Like there is these sort of weird lines that are there Um that I think we just most of us will rarely cross because Something in it will just break your brain Yeah, you look at it and you go this doesn't feel right or it doesn't look right. Yeah Yeah Man that just broke my brain right there at the end. What a thing to end on. All right. Cool. Well good stuff If we missed anything, please drop it down in the comments Uh, I I'm interested in what made you fall in love with your army like share the story Tell me what you think of our what would you wait the things that we've given here? How much do they matter to you? I'm interested this could be something that would be a good survey to do So I don't know maybe we'll do that in the future. Um Okay, but thank you so much for watching tom. This was a lot of fun Of course good stuff for all of you out there. We really appreciate it. Hey, don't forget to hit like Uh subscribe do things that make dings. We really appreciate all that helps other people find the show and it's so simple Uh The if you want to support the channel Uh, there's lots of ways you can do so and down below there is a patreon Focus on review and feedback and taking your next step on your hobby journey You can do that down there chuck in a couple bucks for us. It's always appreciated Uh, but uh, you know share the share the thing tell your friends about it and just watch the show We really we really thank you for it. Uh, the links to the things we mentioned will be down below Up in the pick of the week as always Thank you so much for watching And we'll see you next wednesday