 Okay, well welcome to this session on Cuba. Always Cuba, we've called it because since 1959 Cuba has been in always in controversy with the United States and has formed a good part of U.S. foreign policy toward the Caribbean and toward all of Latin America. My name is Sandy Baird and I'm here tonight for the Vermont Institute of Community and International Involvement. I'm also here as a member of the Cuban American Friendship Society which is a small little group that I founded way back in the really in the 80s but then solidified it in the 90s. I went to Cuba first in 1981 when the Soviets were there and fell in love with Cuba for all of its faults. In fact Cuba I believe transformed my life in many ways. It made me look at the whole world in a very different and I think more cosmopolitan fashion. It made me a lot more aware frankly of Latin America and South America and all of the continental United States as well. Anyway so I am then at that time I founded a group called the Cuban American Friendship Society and ever since I've been trying to express friendship through that society with the people of Cuba. I try not to take a position about the government I have of Cuba. I have positions about my own government and I don't and I probably have some opinions about their government as well but that is not my purpose in general. I believe in friendship. I believe in showing friendship and support to the Cuban people. The nation is poor. The people are all people of color and white people who are poor in general and I believe that we should be supporting them rather than making their life more miserable with embargoes and blockades because they are our neighbors and they've always been our friends. Okay so I'm going to just talk a little bit about that and then turn it over to the other members of the Cuban American Friendship Society who are with us tonight and that's Armando Villaseca the president of CAFs and also Joanne Murad and here in the room too is Grant Crisfield who is also on our board and so that's what CAFs is. We're trying to do a trip in May again to Cuba to take people to Cuba not only to support them the Cubans and to be friendly to our Cuban people but also to learn a lot about Cuba which is endlessly fascinating. All right so I think maybe that I briefly will talk a little bit just about the embargo and the blockade that the United States imposed on Cuba in 1961. Cuba has always been of interest to the United States so there was talk in prior to the Civil War here that Cuba would become part of the Confederacy. We all have to remember that Cuba is a very afro influenced African Cuban island influenced by Africans who came here for came to Cuba and to the United States as slaves they didn't come voluntarily they were kidnapped and brought to both Cuba and the United States and then slavery formed the basis of the Cuban economy for many many decades. During the Spanish-American war slavery was eliminated in Cuba and then Cuba became more independent from Spain and an independent republic which had freed slaves but during the Spanish-American war which was fought first by Cubans against the Spanish in order to become independent at the last moments of the war that war was intervened by the United States who was basically seeking to rid the whole hemisphere of Spanish colonies and in that war the United States basically was the victor essentially over Cuba. Cuba maintained its independence but were hampered by the Platt Amendment and other restrictions from the United States empire that wanted Cuba to be under its hegemony and that succeeded. It was in 1904 for instance when the United States acquired Guantanamo the naval base that is still on that island is still a U.S. naval base with objections by the way from the Cuban government. In 1959 then the leader of the communist movement in Cuba Fidel Castro took over the government of Cuba evicted the prior president President Batista and Cuba became a socialist republic within the Caribbean where the United States would say is its sphere of influence. Since that time the United States has refused to really deal with Cuba in any way has imposed an embargo against all trade and travel with Cuba has the Cubans called that a blockade makes life very difficult for Cubans in terms of trade in terms of credit and in terms of making any kind of progress toward prosperity. That has been in existence to 1959 until the present. There was a brief break in that during the President Obama's administration who diplomatically recognized Cuba did not lift the embargo did not lift the blockade but at least recognized Cuba diplomatically when President Trump was elected that was reversed and we went back to a real state of hostility with Cuba with minor as I said which has always been the case but lifted a little bit during President Obama. That policy of hostility toward Cuba the embargo the blockade has been continued with President Biden though all of us had hoped that President Biden would at least return to the days of President Obama. Anyway the blockade and the embargo are now 60 years old is that right Armando I think they just so celebrated they just announced that there was a big article in the nation 60 years of an embargo it's kind of in it certainly is not working the hope always has been that the government the people would get so mad at the hardships on the island that they would rebel against their own government there have been times when when the Cubans have resisted have demonstrated at least against the government but the embargo certainly has never successfully brought about the regime change that Washington has always wanted and that kind of the embargo and the blockade still exists to this day it has in my mind only hurt the Cuban people who still suffer because of poverty because of shortages and because of just the meanness that emanates from Washington about Cuba. Anyway I'd like to have the other members of CAF say a few words but from their own experience we've all been there a lot I want to talk first to Armando Villaseca who is our president of CAF so is was born in Cuba left and his family left I think when in Armando in nineteen sixty four take it over this is Armando we worked here for a long time as the secretary of education for the state of Vermont he's been a principal here and he and a teacher as well okay so Armando go ahead why did your family leave by the way I've always said yeah our family left in 1964 I was eight years old and again we left after our family realized that the the initial happiness of having the Batista government overthrown was heading in the wrong direction particularly around communism and when the Castro was aligning himself with the Soviet Union and then other things having the nationalization of businesses everything else that was an indication that it was not what they were expecting and what Castro had talked about however some of the reasons that he went in that direction was because he was dissed by the United States was never taken seriously because considered you know a Latin American revolutionary that was not going to last long and so I do believe that much of that of the reason that he ended up with going towards the Soviets was as a result of our lack of respect for the treatment of him uh be there after after the Bay of Pigs in or what even before even before you know when he came to New York he stayed in the hotel in Harlem because you know he wasn't uh welcome another place in Manhattan uh again he was dressed in his green fatigues he was when he came to the US he was supposed to be greeted by Vice President Nixon at the time well Nixon holds him up for close to an hour making him wait again just those little lack of respects that eventually led to the Soviet the Soviet Union stepping in and providing whatever Castro was looking for which was to stay in power and nevertheless the fact that the embargo occurred was a major impact on Cuba I mean as you look at some of the estimates it over the last 60 years well over 1.3 trillion dollars is what is as estimated that the Cubans have lost uh because of the embargo and you know it sounds like a big number but when it comes right down to it it's a lot of the basic things that as a result of the embargo people don't have you know soap shampoo this detergent medical supplies parts for cars any of those things so when we talk about the the impact it really does impact the average person in Cuba on the flip side just as a little side note it has impacted economically the US I was reading report earlier on Al Jazeera did a wonderful uh expose a type of thing a few months ago on on the embargo and on Cuba relations with the US that the US is losing about 1.2 1.3 billion dollars a year over the last 60 years and revenues lost from businesses with Cuba so it's not just the Cubans that have been damaged but the US as well ultimately it is the Cubans who are paying the price of it and the goal of the embargo was saying as you were saying was regime change and reforms and when they say regime change they meant no more castros well the castros are gone now so that's one move towards it uh the reforms no matter what Cuba does will not be enough for the sort of right wing is cuban-american foundation and those folks in south florida what do you mean by reforms what does the united states want I mean when will the united states say that's okay now you're okay now we will now deal with you do you have any idea you know multiple parties to have elections with multiple parties even though Cuba has elections and I've been in Cuba during the elections uh and people vote the problem is that there's only one party and I think that's the I think that's one of the conditions that the um there's an organization in Cuba with paya uh the payas paya was the guy who signed who got I don't know how many hundred thousand cubans signed a referendum to go to vote that he mysteriously dies his daughter is now in Miami with an organizational called cuban decide that is right of center if you will but nevertheless what their goal is also to have multiple political parties in Cuba that would run not just one at the same time I see I believe that they also want to lift the embargo because they realize that that's causing too much pain on Cuba and again chooses an excuse by the government in Cuba to blame all of their problems and up until a few years ago sanding Joanne you remember billboards on the highways with a picture of of Cuba with a gun held to it by bush and about the embargo or whatever president was in office at the time so again it was you know rally people around a common enemy to be able to accept the challenges that they have because it's a profit it's the fault of someone else the internal embargo you know Cuba has a bucket load of issues that they need to deal with everything centralized it's not well run it's inefficient blah blah blah but nevertheless a lot of that is caused as a result of the U.S. you know remember that the embargo does not allow any product from the U.S. other than food in the year 2000 day took food off the embargo list but nothing made in the U.S. nothing made in another country that is owned by subsidiary of U.S. or has a U.S. made parts in it so that you know that's pretty much everything in the world so it has an incredible impact on Cuba and when they talk about changing the the political structure in Cuba my family my friends people I speak to I'll say one thing you lift the embargo and things will change either the government will topple and who knows what happens next or the government will be forced to do a quick 180 and reform because if not they will be toppled if they want to stay in power they will have to make some changes because they no longer can blame the U.S. and all of the problems on the embargo so so it's a very interesting thing and I don't understand why all these bright people even the Cubans who hate Cuba Cuban government don't realize that by lifting the embargo they will guarantee within a couple of years that things would change dramatically for the better in Cuba what do you think goes on then why why are the princes the Cubans in Miami and the Cubans in Florida really want to keep the embargo going right punish Cuba punish them punish them the Cuban people is that right yeah punish the Cuban punish the government but in order to punish the government you're punishing the Cuban people uh that's the whole the whole position now great that that's changing uh folks of my parents generation have not passed away who you know my father was out there throwing themselves he lived in Miami on the streets when Elian was being returned to you know to Cuba he was you know nothing if the those who stayed in Cuba that's their fault you know they they could have left and they stayed they have to be punished along with everybody else that was my father's and many of those positions I think that's evolved because many of those people have passed on and you have younger Cuban Americans who were still raised with that sort of philosophy as I was um growing up in in a very Cuban dominated community in Newark Jersey but once you go there and you when you see what's really going on yes the government's a mess you know it's a it's a basically it's a communist dictatorship to a certain extent but it has so much potential and as you say Sandy the people are wonderful and we bring groups to Cuba and everyone leaves an amour with right I fell in love with Cuba 1981 whether it's the intellectual the intellectual curiosity that they have about learning more about us or the music or literature or the connections with other countries and you know the the influence that Cuba's had both in Latin America and Africa and in Europe for is has been incredible so you look at all those things what potential do we have and what a loss that we have in this country uh you know that so many Cuban Americans have been so successful in the state in Cuba would they still be the same I mean there's a whole lot of uh issues going on but I'll stop there and join me one more question one more question uh so what was your attitude growing up my attitude growing my attitude growing up was that everything Cuban was bad and the and Castro was bad and everything that they did was uh was hurtful inefficient uh they were communist you know they were part of the Soviet bloc at the time so everything was was that alpha 66 was sort of a cute right when Cuban organization was based in Union City in Jersey which is right where I grew up so everything was very much anti Castro but again you know you read you listen you you learn from other people I had an uncle who was a wonderful uh he was an attorney in Cuba and probably one of the most intelligent people I've ever met and really talked to me a lot about both sides of the equation and then when I finally went now my uncle was considered a communist by many people just because he was willing to look at both sides there was no both sides in Cuba if you go to Miami right now and you go to La Carreta or you know and little Havana these little restaurants where other Cubans hang out you know what I'm saying right now it would be blasphemy better be careful they're tough to those Cuban exiles Robin did you have a question you're muted Robin if the government is such a mess how is it that they provide a doctor and a little medical clinic on every other block in in Havana I mean their medical service is extraordinary wouldn't you say their their preventive medical services are yeah and I'm not arguing that's Robin I know I visited them I know that but to the Cuban American population here that that doesn't mean anything it means absolutely nothing you know there may be doctors in every in every neighborhood but there's no medicine you know they would they would that's what the Cubans would say to you or that that's that's sort of the answer doesn't matter the fact that wonderful educational system up until recently I think was one of the top knots in the world the and free you know a social service system that protected all of its people a medical system that provided as you were saying free medical care and good medical care to people that those were all that was all background noise to the Cubans and to many of the Cuban population I am well let me just ask one other question do is your family are you do you have property there or houses there that your family is wanting to get hold of or no I mean my it's funny my my dad has passed away but for years he was saying that he had a deed to his grimp to his parents land which I don't you know who knows what that but to me that would be that's not something that I would be willing to pursue because you know once you leave a place you've left you know and where my family's land may have been you know 10 acres of something there there may be several buildings housing 30 families so I mean I think that whole that a whole idea of going back and getting your properties is a a lost um isn't that still an issue with some I think it's an issue people it is an issue it is yep and actually U.S. courts on the Trump have improved two of them uh to go forward and one of them happens to be on the land where the human airport is the Jose Marti airport right right yeah okay I'd like another comments from our other member of CAF and that's Joanne Murad who spent many months in Cuba she was Burlington College had a overseas study program at the University of Havana sometimes I think of it and I feel almost homesick Joanne and Joanne too and she was the resident director who and Robin too both these women were resident directors lived in Cuba for six months Joanne longer than that Robin for one semester right Robin yeah and then back to fill in it for a couple of weeks yeah and so I wanted to ask both of you but particularly Joanne because she also was born in Venezuela yet but you also have Cuban connections too in your family don't you Joanne yes and that was a really interesting story how we found that family but anyway so I wanted Joanne to sort of comment on what her life was like in Cuba and whether it was well you tell me what you think about it in terms of human rights and liberties and democracy yeah well I guess the first thing I was going to say was that I thanks to you Sandy Baird who started the Burlington College program that in 2008 I believe and then I took over the next year as as the resident director for at least another six years that it was just an incredible sort of boots on the ground experience where you get to know the people and having taught Spanish I of course had that that asset to get along with people there and as well as that I also had family so my cousins cousins and cousins second cousins third cousins fourth cousins still live in Cuba but the family was as with Armando there were family members who could not stand living there and left so the family was divided quite drastically for many many years and up until my going down there there were some who would never talked to their family members in the US so it was it was a because of politics Joanne because of politics because of politics that somehow if you stayed that was your your Bailey wick and that was your problem and we don't want to hear about it and but then the ones who stayed actually have made quite a good life and as my cousin always said said where else would you be able to go and have have all the services that we have of course you might say even though it's supposedly a classless society that there is a bit of a class jump in her case in one specific cousin's case and she does they do have have a lot of entrepreneur abilities and they've started businesses and do very well they have a bar is that correct they have a bar and they did have a restaurant and as a matter of fact I think it was Prince Prince Charles and his wife made it their their restaurant some years ago when they were visiting Cuba but in all in all of course what my my sense of Cuba was that the people are so incredibly friendly they don't see us as our what our government is they simply see us as Americans and they love Americans so there was never a sense that oh gee you know you're you're part of that the regime the the capitalist regime up in in the in the US or the the blockade for that for that matter but some little things about about them of course was the fact that it's such an artistic impressive art scene in Havana music dance everything which is really part of their DNA I think movies movies and movies yes oh and the film I hadn't I actually forgot about films because theater film dance jazz clubs classical ballet arts and crafts museums orchestra symphony orchestra opera I saw opera yeah that you would never expect to see in this little downtrodden island supposedly but and and most of of it was of course the the fact that I was able to get to know the the Cubans and get to understand how giving they are they're very generous of course they also want some things back because they don't have many things so that you become this sort of give and take type of relationship in some cases but of course they they did love Obama they were very very sad that he no longer could be president and of course there was always the hope that the the idea of opening Cuba would continue but just as an example of their of of how they are I don't know if you remember the Kitty Genovese incident in New York City some back in the 60s where no one came to her aid and when in Cuba when I asked someone about the students and I said what happens if they're on the streets and some they have an accident what do they do and the woman laughed and said what there will be 20 Cubans on top of you taking you as a matter of fact they'll probably they'll all have to fight over who's going to get you to the hospital and who's going to get help for you so that's kind of what they're about and of course you would ask me about about Cuba being a police state and I didn't I really don't think I ever saw let's say that the optics of a police state are difficult to see yes there are some policemen walking around in Havana and there are they have I've saw them stopping some teenagers but as a rule for tourists there is no one taking taking part crime of course there's petty crime but I never felt that there was a sense of fear on the streets because of it and being Cuban of course is is being able to get around regulations and even though they are aware of them they know exactly how to how to get around them and their favorite saying is todo tiene solución menos la muerte which means everything can be resolved except that and so that's that's their their mantra and then finally the the the fact of the lines all the the the difficulty of getting things there and it's part of everyday life patients however is a virtue so they know best of it yes and I think those of us who've gone there and traveled we all have a lot of respect for their survival skills and their endurance but I do believe that what has sustained them throughout all of this is the fact there that they have a bedrock belief in their sovereign Cuba and that as and my husband gave me a quick prop well as a quote it says el vino de platano this is jose martí who was the George Washington of Cuba el vino de platano y si sale agrio es nuestro vino so wine from plantains which of course we know doesn't come from plantains but if it is bitter it's our wine and so because we made because we made it so therefore it's our our decisions our choices and I think that's sort of what's what's really kept them going yeah and the US doesn't understand that I really don't think they see that that strength that Cubans have so what about um does anybody else have any questions how about you Eric Eric is um a colleague of mine um and he is helping to I hope to put together a trip for us to go to Cuba maybe in May Eric is from Africa so I just wanted to you maybe Eric could you comment on what interests Africans or how how does how do Africans perceive the Cubans uh well depending on the countries those who are under you know the brainwashing of the colonial powers will of course you know think that Cuba is the devil but overall you know there's some kind of pride you know for a big brother which despite you know who despite you know the all the I mean the um bagels and everything that the US and the western power did has managed to survive and then also to to to have one of the best literacy rate in the world and also a good system it's mitigated you know it's like 50 50 some people say maybe Cuba should have been more docile so they would have had like more money more glittering things uh some some um in the other hand you know like Thomas Sankara for example working up so who has been a very much of a revolutionary figure as always had like good connections with Cuba not only just to say uh you know uh uh go to hell the west but also you know to show that we can do stuff even though we don't have like all the IMF and all this you know backing but Cuba also is uh is like a big brother when it comes to music for example all the bands like my father his brothers and like the big brother before me were all listening to Afro-Cuba music you know everybody has like a name Pedro my my uncle was Pedro just because they're always a Pedro who knows how to sing everybody was dancing you know and then so Cuba is not only inspiring for its political struggle and then resistance you know towards the west but also because it's a place of diversity we haven't heard about you know we didn't know for a long time that Cuba also was plagued by some racial you know challenges so when I because the image that we always had from Cuba in Africa at least for what I know is like a place where everybody it was a paradise for everybody you know no black was like having trouble over there it was the revolution and then when I heard that you know these challenges are very much acute right now in Cuba it was a shock so uh it's uh it's a mixed bag but but Eric I specifically wanted to ask you though about uh doctors that yeah you know a lot of countries have you know had the help of Cuba when it comes to you know for example I think during the Ebola crisis you know there was some help from Cuba and also uh you know many countries have had like teachers doctors from Cuba and and and and and it's uh I think for example Burkina Faso under Thomas Sankara have sent all his you know his students abroad in Cuba rather than sending them to Paris where you know the the tuition would have been like 10 times what they would pay in Cuba and then the doctors who went to Cuba got like good education as well so and then some countries of course have had like the help of Cuban doctors which are who are always seen as you know some kind of you know pride for for the continent yeah well those have uh comments or questions so what is the problem then between the United States and Cuba what do you think or I think it's it's unfortunate because you cannot judge it's hard to judge you know what Cuba has done or not done you know with regard to sanctions like it's like you know you want someone to be the you know number one tennis player but you know you steal all his rackets and then you know he doesn't have any ball to play with so it's it's very difficult to you know to judge Cuba you know I wish there was no uh um um embargo then we would have seen if you know Cuba was not able to do something so um I know that you know uh uh Cuba has always has all has been a dictatorship I mean like you know but to me it's action reaction like like if you see for example what happened to uh Mugabe Robert Mugabe the former president of Zimbabwe have been for a long time a good boy a very good boy to the British and to the US but the day he decided like listen you promised me to give me like to help me do that land reform Tony Blair didn't do anything I don't know if it was a Clinton or some some other president didn't do anything so what did he do he started like you know distributing the land to the people he became the best the worst enemy of the west so he got all the sanctions then people come later and say oh Zimbabwe didn't do anything education is like it's a mess how can you be a mess if you don't have the mean if you crippled by sanctions so Zimbabwe was the pearl of you know uh you know you know Africa at some point they did work but the sanctions come and then action reaction you make the guy becoming more and more paranoid I'm pretty sure Fidel Castro knowing that he could die every day you know we'll even see a Cuban like any anyone in front of him as an enemy and maybe sink into you know some kind of paranoia the same thing happening in Geneva with uh with a secouture everywhere leaders have been attacked have been crippled by you know the western world they turn into tyrants more and more maybe Armando maybe is that your point Armando also that that these sanctions have both strengthened the Cuban government in a lot of ways because then they get to blame the the mess on the United States and sanctions so it strengthens them and while it still hurts the Cuban people but is that what that was what Armando was kind of saying is that correct Armando well I mean I think that Eric's point is correct and I think that a place like Cuba never had a chance to be able to prove whether their system was going to work or not because they were hamstrung from day one you know when President Kennedy in February of 62 signed the order of limit you know the economic embargo right off the bat that limited Cuba's ability to be able to see if the system that they were trying to implement would work obviously many of the things did work but always with one hand tied behind their back because of that now again you know there it wasn't like the the US didn't have some issues for example you know when they start nationalizing US businesses and not providing any remuneration back that's obviously a problem you know so when things like that happen it just makes it worse right or wrong that is how the Castro regime wanted to approach things because he believed that all of that was the had been abused by the by the foreigners all the money that was being made in Cuba was being taken out of Cuba and the the elites the very small number of elites in Cuba were the ones benefiting when there was extreme poverty lack of education you know medical system that was not existed a very small middle class which is where our family came from and but at the same time growing what Castro came in saying trying to get rid of Batista the dictatorship of Batista the goal was get the revolution a couple years you're stabilized then you have open elections with multiple parties that didn't happen at that point that's when the nationalization started happening Cuban Americans Cubans and Cubans started fleeing the country in droves Soviet Union started coming in taking advantage of it and then that just you know it entrenched each side the Cuban Americans in the US because they always thought they would go back soon they never expected that this would be 60 years later that they would they would never have returned to Cuba Cubans on the other hand now that they were dependent so much on the eastern block countries not just Soviet Union but East Germany East Germany Czechoslovakia those were huge trade partners with Cuba but again Cuba had a mono economy it was sugar and again when you look at the embargo they were using equipment that was built by the Americans or at least American money in the 1920s and 30s so they couldn't get parts to replace them so the whole system was not provided any opportunity to be successful because of the embargo now the embargo is well past its time there's no reason we're you know an embargo when we were when we had an economic embargo against South Africa it's a perfect government that was a worldwide embargo Cuba it's the US and in only the US right only the US only the US and then when you go to the United Nations every year there's resolution to end the embargo into through the United Nations and the only couple of countries to vote the United States I think the Marshall Islands Israel but Israel has a has is a is a trade partner with Cuba I know that's the interesting thing so again the disappointment that the Cubans have right now they were you mentioned before Joanne mentioned before Obama he was loved literally loved by the Cubans when he spoke to the Cuban people on television and on the radio without any interruptions or screening of what he was saying I mean he was saying things in Cuba that had never been said before that was the most hopeful game baseball game baseball game but in the 20s since since since the year 2000 when the first year I went and go to Cuba and spend a lot of time there I'd never seen Cubans so excited about their future because they saw this as the beginning of the end of the embargo private businesses as you all know we're flourishing limited private businesses but it was still moving away from a government-centered occupational structure to a much more diverse structure even now the DSKNL government which has been a disappointment the ones with the president of Cuba right now has has opened up more I think you know there are now thousands of different professions that Cubans could do independently but nevertheless that's still it's all centralized in the agriculture from agriculture so so again there's there's there's that disappointment in Cuba right now that President Biden was is not following through with his promises that he made on the campaign and something as simple as just firmly you know remittances you know that's why don't you explain what that is Armando what's in a remittance what do you mean well I mean when people send money to to another country okay when Americans though here send money to that even to their families in Cuba right yeah yes I think most of the remittances going with Cuban Americans sending money to their families and you know there were multiple agencies in Miami Western Union I could send money from you know from the Hanifers in Essex to Havana with a limit of $400 and those were things that Cubans were using to help start those businesses you know if you were starting a small you want to be a mechanic you need to buy some things first to get started that's where some of that money was helping you needed money to start a business that's where it helped and now that's gone and President Trump got rid of that you know 2017 and that's something that there's no reason not to have that open the argument is it's helping the government I mean it's helping the government because they take a small percentage of remittances I'm sure as everybody does but the money is really helping Cubans and again I have family and friends in the United States and Cubans and it's hard for them to send money to Cuba and they used to have you know during the Trump years go to Canada and send money from Canada but now that's become you know obviously more complicated so again the the disappointment my friend Francisco which you all know Sandy and and Joanne I'm a good friend just turned 90 years old true communist true believer but he's a capitalist communist he has his own business and I just spoke to him the other day and he and he says that his heart is broken by Biden because he was they had been so much anticipation that he was going to make some changes maybe not get rid of the embargo but expand what President Obama had done and again nothing's happened okay I want to ask anyone first of all anybody have any other questions but I see Diane there and thank you Mary for chiming in because these are two women who went to Cuba with CAFs a number of years ago and I've never even heard what you thought about Cuba so and then went off on their own after us you know those are those kind of women they do go off on their own you know but we Joanne was there and Armando was there but actually the little trip the side trip that we took is precisely the topic I wanted to bring up and it has to do with the sustainable farms that were created during this special period and the one piece in the history that you haven't really talked about is the special period yeah right yeah time that I went previous to our CAFs trip was about natural resources and the agricultural farming farm changes and I think that's something that we can still learn from is how under the difficulty of the 80s and 90s Cuba was able to gain its own footing on feeding itself and now it wasn't as easy in the cities as in the rural countryside but food and energy was figured out and it was totally isolated during that period because the USSR had crashed and so its access you know beyond the US which was never accessible but access to materials goods energy in particular from Russia from USSR was totally unavailable and so there was a decade that people really did they lost 80% of their body weight I mean there was a huge drop in body weight across the population but they learned to be resourceful and they learned to use non-pestified food farming systems that we have yet to figure out how to do and so the availability of recapturing how farming could occur is is iconic in in worldwide systems and that story is not really out and and and it's a really strong story um can I just can I just jump in on that that is a one of the things that uh because the organic farming out of out of necessity not necessarily out of choice but now yeah but now it's flourishing there but what a market what I was talking to I don't know if you guys went either Finca Marta or to the Agra Bonico with us when we were there all of it yeah all of it okay uh you know what they're saying is that the the organic market in the U.S. for them would be huge again you know you pick something could be picked in the morning by the next day it could be in the distribution system of the U.S. and South Florida that just to be able to use that experience of organic farming and because it is so popular internationally that if by lifting the embargo it would encourage more farmers or encourage more of that uh and and that's just again one slice of the embargo that impacts a huge number of people and Cuba right now still has to import 80 percent of their food which is a it's a crime you know it's great I was I was struck by the importation of rice from Vietnam yes yeah rather than Louisiana for instance or you know that they have to go all the way to Vietnam yeah that gets back to a different social impact and that rice was not an unnatural historical food right so you know back to which food has been brought in and colonized rice was one of those and that's why the dependency from out of the country right um yeah and also Vietnam and Cuba had a very good back and forth between the the Vietnamese who were staying at the agricultural home that I was living in the residence and they were coming to learn about sugarcane and and of course teaching about rice or at least trying to get people to to um uh to understand that how how to grow rice but especially they were helped a lot with sugarcane in uh in Vietnam and so the two governments had worked together as well as others in in uh Latin America that came well they the Cuban the Cubans also work with China correct oh yes I guess so um to get back to the special period though um especially for those who might look in later I think many Americans aren't aware of what the special period was and that occurred in 1991 when the fall of the Soviet Union meant that the main trading partner of Cuba collapsed totally and uh and it totally affected Cuba so that they went through I don't know how long five six years of real deprivation and a really really hard time I was in Cuba during the decade what decade the decade a whole decade I was in Cuba during that period of time and a friend of mine that I met there who I'd met here had lost 50 pounds I mean people were however however somehow they did survive they did survive which is really rather an incredible testimony to their resilience you know it made them tougher it made them the other thing I've always noticed about Cuba is they're incredibly innovative don't you think oh yes like they keep these old cars going you know these I mean clements and Cadillacs how do they do that I think I think poverty and makes you innovative I think when you have nothing you become innovative what happened in Cuba is what happened in Ghana too you know Ghana was like because of Kwame and Krumah who was a revolutionary who wanted to drift away from you know the European powers and built one Africa one economy and stuff he was combated like so afterwards Ghana got into a series of coup d'etat and stuff but today the Ghanaian have become like very much ingenious you know they learned everything they did everything by their on their own compared to the French colonies like you know the country where I come from who were babysitted by by France he couldn't even go to the toilet by themselves you know they're collapsing while Ghana is you know I hope that one day the US will will come back to the census and that also you know the Cuban you know people will push for more democracy over there and then we'll see you know what Cuba you know what is the potential for that because I'm pretty sure that you know the countries that have learned to do things on their own compared to those who were like very much assisted by by assisted or I mean dependent too dependent like dependent you know and then so much so that you know Ivory Coast cannot even you know you know produce a needle while or some chocolate while they're producing you know you know 50 percent of maybe the worldwide production of chocolate I want to I also want to know I mean I tried to understand you know if there were so many I mean partners other than the US how come you know the embargo on the US is so hurting because it's also a corruption no I think well I think that it's not just if you're asking the question why does the embargo why has it been so harmful to Cuba what about other countries the Cubans also describe the embargo as a blockade so that the United States seeks to interfere with third parties in the trade with Cuba and they've been very successful with that wouldn't you say Armando isn't that correct I mean that's what I was saying before is that you know the embargo is not just for Cuban US products and US businesses but let's say you know I'm using example I years ago I opened up a bank account at RBC in Montreal Royal Bank of Canada because that was a way for me to be able to send money to Cuba prior this was probably in the late 90s before things started opening up a little bit well about two years later I get a call because then this way I could use my card that ATM card anyway made it easy for me to deal with money in Cuba then like two years later I get a note from them saying that they've been purchased by a US bank or at least part of them have now as a US subsidiary and they no longer will be able to operate in Cuba so so here's an example of a Canadian bank or Canadian company that because now they have partially US ownership that that bars them from doing business in Cuba the Bank of Paris has been fined hundreds of millions of dollars for dealing with US dollars from Cuba because the US dollar is illegal it's illegal for Cuba to deal with the Cuban with the US dollar so did they pay the fines did they pay the fine oh yes they pay the fines because if not they won't be able to do any business with the US so they they really they haven't by the you know by the throats but that's why I've been enjoying it whenever we go to Cuba we're when we were exchanging our dollar we're paying you know we're getting 75 78 Cuban cents for the US dollar now please let's say from a worthless car but because 10 cents out of that was the additional charge that they put in because that's what they cost the Cubans to then change the money so the embargo has impact on on them from again from the organic farmers to the banks in other countries to people like us who are trying to send money to family in Cuba and now you know again I have two family members from Cuba and other Cubans who live around there's probably like a half a dozen of us that I know real Cubans who came recently and they can't send money home right now all the agencies in South Florida Miami that were always sort of fallback ones are not able to send money so it really becomes that when people go to Cuba you give them money to bring to family and then they figure out you know how to get to them so that's I mean it's a it's a harmful it's a spiteful is what it is it's a spiteful policy that in 2003 I don't know if you many people remember there were several attempts in the house and even in the Senate to pass to uh Lifte and Bargo and president the old Bush threat to veto it every time so it died it seems that the west is very much like uh like you know like the half France you know for all these years I've asked Hayley for having been so rude oh that's for the independence to pay for something I know the same thing in every course in all 15 countries has to give you a heads up on our communications on you know the fall of the French Empire in West Africa 15 countries of Africa you know when they do business with the rest of the world for example they sell cocoa to the US 60 percent of the dollar I mean the you know foreign currency that they get is held in the bank of France and in return France give them a phony fiat money like a monkey money and for them to stay like in a bubble and in return these these countries cannot you know benefit any fluctuation from the dollar you know same way when France wanted to get rid of Laurent Bargo the kind of rebel the guy who became like a little bit you know less docile they put an embargo on the medicine the drugs for for for months the Ivorian couldn't go I mean couldn't get any medicine because of course all the medicine all the drugs they get is produced in France so same way you know use like these crippling sanctions and inhumane sanctions right and then and then come a few months later to say oh this is a failed country because they couldn't even you know do something the the problem um I think that Americans don't seem to realize is that sanctions embargoes blockades are war by other means these are considered acts of war and to really so in a sense we've been at war with this island of Cuba um a largely uh you know the biggest island in the Caribbean but still a rather rather small part of the world mainly with black people and people of color we've been at war with them since 1959 so how in a way can we then expect that island to succeed wouldn't it be better politics to let them succeed or fail on their own right right just remove all this nonsense and see if it can survive but but there's there's the hate I mean one of the things that I'm going to compare this to Vietnam just yeah the the the Vietnamese who fled Vietnam and came to the U.S. was a were the largest uh the tractors to opening up relations between the U.S. and Vietnam because they lost things you can understand I mean I understand why my parents who had to give up their life and give up you know everything or at least they felt like they had to give everything up go can feel that way but that's not the that's not the way that a country should be managing its foreign relations based on how several thousand uh people feel about the what they lost what's in our best interest our best interest forget about the Cubans in our best interest in it's the lifting bar go and let us in Cubans trade let us travel there then travel here music arts theater you know baseball baseball baseball whatever the case would be yeah I agree you know it's it we're it's our our best interest it's a lifting bar go but because you have you know this right wing voting block uh in south Florida and read the Miami Herald I read it every day and it's still as hateful as ever oh the Miami Herald is is left leaning for Florida but I'm saying the comments of the people I mean really the Miami Herald is is uh I mean Miami is they county Broward County Palm Beach County thank god are still Democratic counties in Florida but the other stuff right now the one thing that combines many Democrats and Republicans is that at the same time the Republican senators and Congress folks from uh Iowa and the Brass to Oklahoma they want to lift the embargo because they see that as business a business opportunities whether it be wheat a Louisiana rice Tyson foods is the largest importer of chicken parts to Cuba so again all I mean this would just be a really boom for businesses for many of our in our agricultural in our tourist industry as well as the just the better relations between our countries the place will be flooded with tourists from the United States if we could go there freely flooded it's beautiful it's interesting regardless of what your politics are to me it's one of the most interesting places on earth really the culture is vibrant um it's just it's a melting pot too what yeah the melting pot of so yeah it is it is I can I can get real Cuban cigars I can find them thank you you can that's right no you can't you can get them in Canada but not you can't go to Canada either mr. I'll bring you one next time all right merci I think without uh we have I guess we're pretty much out of time any last comments okay I did want to ask Mary in particular my old friend and colleague Mary Twischel did you like it there Diane and Mary did you have a good time that was great no it was very it was very interesting yeah okay I heard that you were the bell of the of the ball Mary that everybody loved you like crazy did you know that no I didn't well I'm telling you I don't know you guys went you guys went and spent a couple days in a in a in like vignette in vignettes area uh no um it's terraces yes where we went we stayed on a farm and we you know so again you know getting out of the city and looking at the natural resources in the farming communities um but I'm going to bring it back to what Sandy was saying about tourism and and much as I'm skeptical about American tourism I think there's um a bigger built-in not fear but but dynamic about mega corporations coming in taking over the food systems whether it's rice or or sugarcane or whatever um that in some strange ways the gift of non-American intervention there um has made it hasn't helped the country grow economically but has given them their own voice of existence there and that's yes I agree with that I agree with that I remember sitting in a park once in Santiago with a British man who we were watching a high school band playing and I said the music was great and I remember saying these people have so little but this is so amazing he said if these people have so little Britain should have a lot of that because that's also a philosophical question how much is good like because I agree with you you know I you know like in Africa for example like okay they judge the countries by the amount of money coming from like the foreign investors a few jobs are created like the jobs and and and and then oh this country is doing very well but you know is it doing well for the country so to me it has to be yes opening up you know Cuba but you know to what extent I don't know you know can you because it's very frightening also to see like an avalanche of you know big corporations buying McDonald's from the golden yeah I saw one international company once which was Benetton that was the only capitalist corporation that I saw there no advertising either okay a little advertising for the government but very little advertising that for any products but anyway I think we should end tonight by reminding people though that CAFs wishes to do a trip to Cuba in May we're going to concentrate on a people-to-people trip showing to Cuba and having learning about Cuba but also showing them our continued friendship and support of Cuba because like us the Cubans have had a very difficult time during COVID and so I think it'd be very a wonderful trip to show our humanity and to share our common humanity with our friends in Cuba and that'll be in May if anybody's interested they can get ahold of me or Joanne or Armando and I guess that's it for tonight okay and to bring something to Cuba and bring something I'm sorry to bring something to Cuba yes bag an extra suitcase full of stuff like toothpaste like shampoo like those things that they really do not have at this moment okay well thank you all very much and we'll see you soon thanks bye