 We had the best time doing the initial breakdown of the body language and behavior in this video, and we decided we'd revisit some of our favorite moments from it. Where you from and I don't give been in New York. Okay. Rex Yorman. I'm an architect. I'm an architectural consultant. I'm a trouble shooter. Born and raised on Long Island. Okay. Been working in Manhattan since 1987. Obviously, you can't find a serial killer. I mean, if this person is a serial killer, just by interviewing them about their job, you have to really interview them about, have you killed people? And so this isn't an interview around that. So, of course, in this particular instance, this person is able to hide in plain sight because our radar isn't for, can we find a serial killer? So, what we can look at here is what are the values that this person holds? What does that say about their personality type? And is there any indication that their personality type may have a personality disorder that is often seen with others who are serial killers? Let's just say, that's probably what we're looking at here. So, look, powerful upper body strength there. That's really interesting to see, along with these dominant hand suppressor gestures that he's doing all the time, likes to have things under control. People don't always understand when it comes to building codes. They never read the administrative section. So, there's lots of examples in this particular interview where he will diminish other people and therefore elevate himself by diminishing others. There's a lot of mismatched gesture as well. So, he'll have to move his gesture before he starts to speak. Recurring? What does that tell me? Kind of tells me that he's already organized these stories. My prediction would be he's used to having a set up of stories that he tells in order to elevate himself. Your kind of a facilitator with the Department of Building is incorrect, but please tell us. That's correct, but much more. He's practiced these stories to an extent because he'll often show up in a social situation and tell stories that he's practiced in order to elevate his, I'll say, status in front of other people and therefore diminish other people's status. He likes to feel that he's in charge. He has the upper hand. He has the high ground on people. So, you know, have a think to yourself what kind of personality type are we potentially looking at here? Where you from and how long you've been in New York? Okay. Right out of the gate here, he says, okay, that really big, okay, what's the question? So, right away, we're seeing some grandiosity and overdramatized stuff going on here. Then there's a chin thrust, you'll see in this video like this while he's talking about something. In Western cultures, this means a challenge, defiance and sometimes confidence. In Eastern cultures and the Middle East, this usually indicates some agreement, some form of agreement. In some cases, you'll see this associated in ventilation where somebody's trying to get some air down the front of their collar, which is not what we're seeing here right there. Then he's in kind of this truth plane expression the whole time. But I think these are giant gestures, kind of larger than life, self-assured, overly dramatized. And there's some closed eye talking towards the end here, which we tend to see during somebody feeling some kind of intellectual or moral superiority, especially in Western cultures. I've actually used the 1901 old tenement laws. Like Mark said, you can't just spot a psychopath or anything like that right off of one conversation. They're going to give you some hints to start seeing, you can pick up on evidence. So anytime you're talking to a sociopath or psychopath, there will be some little pieces of evidence and those are important to collect. So the first one here is to observe their empathy, especially serial killers lack any empathy there and they might mimic empathetic responses, but it might feel off or maybe forced. Secondly, they'll do contra context expressions of emotion on accident. So you're saying something horrible happened or you're telling them about something bad and they start smiling or you're telling them about something amazing that happened to you and they start having a really sad or disgust look on their face. Those are contra context expressions of emotion. My guess is you love watching the behavior panel partly because you still love to learn. So you'll know that I love to learn too, especially to keep my critical thinking skills up to par. And that's why I'm happy that Brilliant.org is sponsor of today's video. Brilliant is guided interactive problem solving that's effective and fun and you can master concepts in just 15 minutes a day. 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Go to Brilliant.org forward slash the behavior panel or click on the link in the description. The first 200 people to visit get 20% off a premium subscription which unlocks every single course Brilliant has to offer. And now back to the show. I'm going to disagree with you guys on a couple of things and those are around culture. This is New York. And in New York, that's nothing. I'm turning my head back and I'm talking to you. I work with New Yorkers every day. So it can mean something and it can't mean something. It's the only thing to be cautious with when you're dealing with New Yorkers. And look, I've been in the building trades for a thousand years. I was a vice president of operations for an elevator company. Most people don't know that. And when you deal with code folks, when you do, there's a certain amount of exercising authority that made them successful to get to where they are that we have to take into account. I agree with you. However, you can find symptoms of this person as you dig in deeper. And Mark, what you're talking about, I always I started off a long time ago. In this book, I can be like a book in 2008. And in this book, a change to that in 2017, where I talk about this very thing that the whole world is a stage, Mark, you'll recognize the term, right? Whole world is a stage. And in stage, there are characters, roles, trapping settings, an important factor, blocking who's, where, when, and why so that everything works out. And in comedy and tragedy, those two blocking pieces become vital because where you're at matters. What this guy has done is to set the stage. It's his office. When you come in, you're going to talk to him about something specific. The roles of these guys are interviewer, who was a really real estate developer and architect. So they've already determined what they're going to talk about. Mark, I think you hit this wonderfully and beautifully. The reason he can hide is because we're not asking him as an interrogator. My role is to say, okay, I'm going to re-script your whole world. The reason I control the lighting and the temperature and the room setting and where furniture isn't all of that is so that I can put you in the role I want you in. Because all of us, all four of us are multiple roles to make one person chase your father, your former Navy guy, your body language expert. Well, you don't want to talk to the body language expert. You don't want to talk to that guy. You want to talk to the guy that has the information you want and put him under pressure, put him under real duress. And that's the element that we don't do to people in polite society. So when we think about stage roles, establishing all of that, we're seeing him set the stage in this very first piece. And he probably already has the questions that we all have done interviews where people pass us the questions as well. And I think organism does what made the organism successful. The reason he's able to hide in plain sight is exactly the things you both pointed out. Because chase your point while that thrust might mean something if he were in Georgia, it doesn't work. He's at and that matters because in polite society, he can do that. So when I disagree, it's not about disagreeing with the fact you can find this, it's about disagreeing with the specific location he's in and the roles. Greg, I don't think we disagreed. I think I agree with you when I was saying the chin thrust is also a confidence thing that you see often in New York during the periods of confidence. Yeah. And so guys, when I say disagree about why it happened, that doesn't mean I disagree with your overall summation. So maybe I should be more cautious with that word because what I agree is Mark, I think what he's done is this is how he's survived his whole life. And guys who get, look in the building trades, there's a bunch of bloody nose in building trades. It just is the business. I mean, I've been literally in job trailers where guys got in fist fights, but that's not common. What is common is a bunch of one-upmanship and aggrandizing. And look, I know you don't know. It's pretty common. Quite often you hear people say, I can spot a psychopath. You can, if you ask the right questions in the situation set up in the right way, like we've all been talking about, like if you're in an interrogation situation, if you've got somebody cornered or semi-boxed in, you can ask them and you don't even have to have them boxed in. You can ask them a series of specific questions that Robert Hare designed called the psychopath test. It's a long story that comes with that. You've heard us talk about it. Look up Robert Hare, H-A-R-E, the psychopath test. That'll explain everything to you on there on Google. Suddenly he's sitting here. I have to tell you about the whole thing. There's no real stress here. He's being asked questions about him. So he likes that. Now, the reason most people say, oh, I can look at this guy, I can look at a psychopath or a serial killer and tell her, no, you can't. No, you can't. Not even a little bit. There's no way to do it. So what you're looking for is some of the things like Chase was talking about in an extreme situation. If somebody starts laughing at something, like if a baby falls over and they'll, or actually trips itself, falls over and they actually laugh and you can tell if it's from the heart. Then they think that's funny. That's not, and the baby gets hurt. That's not funny. That's, you could, that's a red flag for you. That's one simple thing, but we don't see anything like that in here. What we're seeing here is for people who think they can spot one, you're used to looking for the things you see in movies and TV shows and read in books and those types of things. And they look just like you'd expect them to look because you've been told that so many times before. What we're seeing is not, are not all these cues and tales of a psychopath or serial killer. We're seeing some guys that they're talking about what he does for a living, but he's really into it. I mean, he's really into it. We say, as we go through this, we see steepling. We hear them just, these really big illustrators come along these really big stories like Mark was talking about and you nailed it, Mark. It's when he's doing these things where he goes and then starts talking, he's structured that story. He's ready for it. He's setting it up, then he lets it go. Quite different from when we're talking about someone using illustrators when it's emphasizing specific words or phrases like that. He's emphasizing a story and a section of a story and he's laying out the whole story. So that's why it's different. It's okay because he's structured that to work that way. It's like, okay, here we go. Almost like he's selling something because what he's trying to do, and we know this now from observing him and seeing that he's what you would term a little narcissistic from the way it looks, he's probably insecure with himself. That's why he's using all these steepling things and making these big gestures and talks a little bit loud and tries to keep the guy's attention, oops, all those types of things. So overall, there's really nothing here out of the ordinary other than he's talking about something I find horrifically boring. I don't know how this interview would sit there and talk to him about this for more than a minute and a half and go look, dude, I'm so sorry, I'm out. I can't do this anymore. I made a mistake. Other than that, everything looks as it should to me. Bill, where are you from? And I don't give, been in New York. Okay. Rex Yeorman. I'm an architect. I'm an architectural consultant. I'm a troubleshooter, born and raised on Long Island. Okay. Been working in Manhattan since 1987. Oh, wow. Very long time. Okay. So this brings directly to my first question. So you know, can you explain to our audience, what is it that you do, not the architect part of your business, but the other part of the business, which is my understanding that you're kind of a facilitator with the department of building? Is that correct? But please tell us. That's correct, but much more. Okay. What I do. I'm interested. I do troubleshooting, architectural troubleshooting, and negotiations with the building department. Okay. What I mean by that is, do we do the standard stuff with the building department, handle your filings. I have other clients who are a lot of other architects, and we'll handle their interactions with the building department, especially out of city architects, because they're a little afraid of the city. And when a job that should have been routine, suddenly becomes not routine, I get the phone call. Got you. Whether it's an old building, and they need somebody to understand and can maneuver the 1938 building code, or the current building code, you look surprised when I say 1938 building code. I've actually used the 1901 old tenement laws here in the city of New York, and you can legally do so. Oh, wow. That's one of the little things that people don't always understand when it comes to building codes. They never read the administrative section. On the architectural side, having all of these capabilities in-house gives me an advantage over other people, because I have my own staff. There's one place I see an anomaly. His fingers are separated. They're all doing this. Till he talks about his staff and look at his fingers lock up. Does he have people issues with his staff? Don't know. Something changed when he talked about his staff. His fingers fundamentally shifted. And Navarro says, not Joan of Arc, but Navarro says, fingers separated, thumbs up is confidence. Here we are again. This is the second time he talked about his staff earlier. We saw his fingers locked down, that lack of confidence. He starts to talk about people. Look at his hands. It's the people, how they're all so different and how you deal with the people. No matter what else he does, his hands are locked. If I were sitting across a table with a guy, I would now start to poke around. Not because I would think he's a psychopath, just because in an everyday business transaction, I go, hey, man, this might win me over to him. I might say, hey, man, you got problems with people? Something's going on. People give you information when you ask questions. What this guy's been masterful at, you guys are doing it over and over and over. He's doing this. He is band dancing. He is covering up and he's preventing you from getting to know anything about him. Has he said anything about him at all other than the beginning parts? He's going to poke him one more time and we'll try to get something. But I'll just leave it at this. Right here, right here, I would want to know a little bit more only because it's only the second time he's done it, both times around people. And we're noticing he's owning a conversation, controlling the conversation and allowing you to ask certain questions, but he's very concise with where he goes with the answer. Interesting. Now, that doesn't mean he's a psychopath. It could mean there's something going on at home. He's upset. Something is, there's a ton of reasons why people do this. And for you, if you see somebody suddenly change the way they're talking every time they talk about people, you might even just be a friend and say, hey, Mark, everything okay? That's all you got to say. All you got to say. And that personal, I'm not talking about finding a psychopath and not, yes, I killed him. He's not going to do that. I'm talking about getting across to people who may have something going on. If you've subscribed for any length of time to the channel, then you've probably by now identified his GHD or gestural hemispheric tendency, negative things on one side, positive things on the other side. So that's kind of like we tend to gesture one way for negative things and one way for positive things. If you want to try it out, ask somebody about like maybe an ex-husband or something that somebody doesn't like, and they'll start doing this while they're talking, then ask them about the last vacation they took that they loved, and they'll be like, oh, it was amazing. They'll start using another hand or gesturing to a different side. So his right side is positive, his left side is negative. And you can use this GHD positive negative thing in any situation to maybe frame an idea how you want somebody to perceive it. And you can also see if someone's talking about something positively, but you see them start using the negative side, you might need to ask some more questions. And you can see his GHD here, where the word people, almost he goes from his left, and he almost gets to the center where he gets over to the people part, but they don't quite make it over to the right side. So it's all about how to understand people. They're all so different and how you deal with the people. One thing you'll see a lot of psychopaths do in general is they'll see every conversation that they have as some kind of competition for status and hierarchy every time. And people become enemies and they have to learn that. Hypothetically, if he was a serial killer, they might be studying human behavior his whole life to manipulate these differences and vulnerabilities. And these people carefully catalog every one of these human insights as they learn them so they can be more powerful in the next conversation. And their focus on understanding people is not out of some need for connection, but typically to control the situation, actualize some kind of a fantasy and fulfill some kind of desire and his interest in human nature. I think highlights what could potentially be some calculated chilling nature of some form of psychopathy, if everything is true, what he's accused of. I'm going to go against it a little bit on that every time they have a conversation. They end the one up in part because the key for the psychopath for victims quite often is they want to, when you meet one, if this guy is a psychopath, when you meet one, they're quite often the most charming person you've ever met in your life. They are just wonderful. You feel like you've met a kindred spirit, somebody you've never met before that you can't believe you haven't met before. And as you get to know them, they love bombing as they call it sometimes and make sure all that dopamine fires off. So you get used to being around them. You like being around them. You like being with that person right then in that first initial reaction. So quite often what will happen is no matter what you say, they'll make it so you sound better. So if it is so they may not want to up you on things because they're trying to get you in that little web by throwing out enough dopamine where you just keep coming on in until they get you. One of the things about psychopaths later on and the clinical narcissist is they control people by doing this. They just wail on you with dopamine and all these things that make you feel good by telling you things how great you are, how smart you are, how beautiful you are, how great you are at your work, those types of things. And then one day they cut it off and you're like, wait a minute, where did all that go? And then they'll wait a while and they'll throw out something else and you get that dopamine hit and so you're right back following them. And it's almost like little breadcrumbs they'll throw out to make you follow them. And they're not that steady stream anymore. It's just here and there. So you see where to go and you're almost following like a little puppy trying to get them to like you or to give you that feeling again that you got from them. No, they like me. I know they think I'm smart. I think I'm smart and they're not doing that now, but they wait and they'll string you along and then that's give you a little bit of it. So you get that popping like, okay, great, great. It's like a drug, literally like a drug. Okay, so interviewer here, actually quite a nice question. He's a job taught you about yourself. And we get a pause there and that's what you'd expect with a self-reflecting question. Now, is he pausing because he is going internal and going, yeah, what have I learned most about myself throughout that job? I think it's taught me more about how to understand people. No, he's going to circumnavigate. He maybe doesn't have an answer for what he thinks about himself. My guess would be he's not that self-reflective. And when he is self-reflective, it's not very nice for him. What he sees there is not a good mirror, is not a nice mirror. So he's going to avoid that. And that's not because he may or may not be a serial killer or because he's quite obviously narcissistic. He's not going to see a reflection that is pleasant. That's ultimately, I would suggest why the narcissism is there. So what does he do? Well, I'll tell you, he's taught me how to deal with people. He's taught me how to move those entities outside. So he doesn't go self-reflective. He goes out to how he's learned to manipulate the figures around him. Well, I would imagine that's because actually people are very, very confusing. So we see, just as Greg was showing, this box illustrator that he starts doing. And as Chase was saying, it starts going across his hemispheres there. So what is this gesture? Is it that he's boxing people in? It's told me how to deal with people. They need boxing in. They need controlling because they're complex and they're difficult to understand. He's not saying that. I'm making that up. That is my analysis of where I think this gesture comes from. Now, it could also be a hurdle gesture, two hurdles in there, but it doesn't jump. So I don't think it's a hurdle gesture. I think it's you've got to box people in. You've got to contain them because they're complex and they're tricky to understand. And my guess is he doesn't like that confusion that comes with other people because he's not good at empathy and not good at understanding how other people are thinking and feeling and therefore being able to comprehend what might be driving those people. Though, as everybody's been saying, he could well be a good student of behavior, but he doesn't necessarily innately understand behavior. It could be a good student, could be bookish on it, but not necessarily innately adept at it. What has this job taught you about yourself? I think it's taught me more about how to understand people because dealing with the technical aspects is something a person can learn. You go to school and do an architectural program. You work for the experience of doing architecture. You get your license to practice. As your time goes on, you learn about the buildings and about the codes and the different buildings of time frames. I'm dealing with the building from the 1880s right now, you know how they react. But it's the people, how they're all so different and how you deal with the people, I think is one of the more interesting aspects that have come out of this. Yes? Okay. If you were a tool or an object to help you to bring your business to greater heights, what would it be? What we're seeing here is the first time he's closed down. He finally goes into this downright eye movement which we associate with emotional accessing, thinking about emotional stuff in our head. Then there's lip licking behavior, a bunch of little lip licks. What we always teach you on this channel is to look for changes in this person. This is a big change. You know what? I know. When he's got the answer, he goes back to self-aggrandizing, back to close-eyed talking, which is usually the superiority and false humility. And he's like, when I need to persuade something, he does the closed eye thing again. It is persuasive enough when I need to persuade something. Which is a little strange. At the end of the project, whatever piece of furniture or what I'm working on. I think this is the point where right when he tries to add more information, because he's trying to step on the edge because it feels good. He is trying to add the more information to furniture like maybe something else so that he can feel close to the edge. His hands retract quickly back to his body. They close really quickly. This is called digital flexion. When he does that eye-accessing cue, I think it may be related to his father when he brings up his father because he says something about his father and he does an immediate right, downright eye-accessing. One of the things I learned from my father was furniture building. And we only say that associates. And guys, by the way, a person, this is about compartmentalization and how dramatically different human beings can be. They can have a normal, relatively normal relationship with father or memories of father that are emotional and then still be this other monster. I often say the reason you never saw a serial killer and couldn't pick him out in public. The reason you can't pick him out is because the person we're seeing is not the person who's doing the act. Very different mindset when they go about the act. I always said, when I work seer school, I'll go back to that. The way I turned into the seer instructor is part of gear I put on. Actually, a site told me that. Look, I wouldn't separate myself and turn it into a monster. A new Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but I certainly had a role. Mark in your theater days, I'm sure there was a piece of some trapping that you put on to change you to that character and put you in space. It's blocking and putting you into a space. This guy's doing that. He's playing this role very effectively. He's bringing up his father, but his hands when he's talking about people are still awkward. And I agree with you, Chase, not only does he eye block, he tathy pulls before he eye blocks. He's drawing you to him when he talks about or something. And he said, or somebody is like something. He's intentionally doing that to seem kind of edgy. Look, the guy's not in this role, not edgy. His other roles where we would see the worst of that, in my opinion. This is, however, the one place that if you're talking this guy, you might actually get somewhere because he talks about in the same workshop as his father. And I still build it in the same exact workshop. That's a source lead. I would have said, you live in the same house. You lived in when you were young, just poke and prod, and you get new information. It's the first time, interestingly, in this entire series of videos, he is allowed opening in the conversation for you to be able to take control. First time. He always tries to proliferate his skill set here. So he has many tools. What I do, we have to have so many tools in the toolbox. Many stories. They're a good success story to tell us. There are so many different ways. I'm sure. It's never just, you know, the guy says, well, what's the one? What's the one? Ask the value question. He's like, but there are so many. There are so many. Here's the reality to grandiose narcissism. Some people actually are that grand. I mean, they actually own all that stuff. They have all of those abilities. They are the best in that, or the best in so many things. Some of them have some humility, though, and they don't tell you that. That can be the case as well. So it's only grandiose narcissism. If they really don't own those things, does he own so many tools? Well, I mean, so he wasn't talking about literal tools. He was talking about ones that you might have in the mind, skill set, essentially. This guy goes to the actual many tools that he might have as an amateur maker of furniture. I hate me using the word amateur. Now he says, so he's a furniture builder like his father, and he steeples on father. So the father is important. The father has some hierarchical status, I would suggest. Then he pushes away aerospace engineer. He was an aerospace engineer and built satellites. He made satellites. Well, that's a serious aerospace engineer. You're putting satellites up there. That's a serious thing. And what are you doing in spare time? You thought you'd be an amateur furniture maker in your spare time as well. So what's the sun achieved here? It's not even really a... I mean, yeah, he's got himself an architecture degree, but he's working in a bureaucracy there. He's not creative in any sense. He's certainly not putting satellites into space at the cutting edge of engineering. So what do I think has happened here? He's trying to mirror the father's abilities and falling short of that. And I wonder whether, I wonder whether his father would make him see that quite often, that he was falling short of the father's ability. Is his time in the workshop trying to make up for how he fell short of the father's ability? It is interesting that he chooses a tool which is persuasive on the non-conforming. Persuasive enough when I need to persuade something. Anybody who doesn't conform, yeah, or anything, anything that doesn't conform, he uses an aggressive tool that causes them to yield. It always yields excellent results. And then that produces for him beautiful results. At the end of the project, whatever piece of furniture or what I'm working on, it always helps it come out beautifully. And it nudges things along. Sometimes I have to be the heavy framing hammer. Other times I'm the lightweight hammer just to nudge things along. And Greg, there is a chin raise there on nudges things along. I get you thing about this might be just a New York thing, but it's quite pronounced at that point on nudges things along. So again, this idea of he is probably intolerant. And when things don't conform, he's aggressive. There's a story that he does tell in this about how he pushes somebody out of the way when they're holding him up in a queue. He has no problem with physically maneuvering people who are not conforming and are getting in his bureaucratic way. This is where everything changes for his body language. He looks different here. He's lower. He's stopped using his illustrators. His hands come together. You don't see any movement in there. At the beginning, you see a little bit of steepling in the thumbs there, which I think he's trying to get confidence or show confidence, but it doesn't work. And I also think that when he's talking about this hammer and himself, what tool are you when he's thought this out? The first thing he thought of was how he takes care of problems. And that's why he's a hammer because he, but the problems he has is with people. That's why he says, I use a hammer for anything that does this or that. And when he's talking about is the people that work for him. That's what I was talking about earlier. Because I think when he thinks about the problems he's solving, he thinks it's with his people. I think he thinks that's where the problems are. And that's where his brain went to solving the problem. But then he realizes as he started talking about this, he's talking about the people. So I think that's a big point there in that personality type. If you were a tool or an object to help you to bring your business to greater heights, what would it be? That's an interesting question. I know. Because for what I do, we have to have so many tools in the toolbox. Just one. Just one. Just one. Or an object, it doesn't have to be a tool. It can be an object. You know what? I know. One of the things I learned from my father was furniture building. Okay. He was an aerospace engineer and built satellites. Runs into family, didn't thinks. Built furniture at home. And I still built it in the same exact workshop. So I have one tool that's pretty much using almost every job. And it's actually a cabinet maker's hammer. Oh, okay. Cabinet's maker hammer. Okay. It is persuasive enough when I need to persuade something. Not someone. Something. And it always yields excellent results. And at the end of the project, whatever piece of furniture or what I'm working on, it always helps it come out beautifully. Okay, great. So you would be kind of that kind of hammer for your business. That's what you're saying. That there's an excuse. That's what you would be. Sometimes I have to be the heavy framing hammer. Other times I'm the lightweight hammer just to nudge things along.