 Hey, we're back. We're live. Here we are. My God, here we are. It's Thursday. There's Stephanie Dalton. There's Jim Eppichella. There's Winston Welch. Cynthia Sinclair. Full House. We're so happy to be here. We're talking about Trump. And let's see. We're talking about the fact that he's still doing it. He's still lying to us. And despite all the things that have happened, quite incredible. So let's talk about all the lies this week first. Because I would like to focus on that for a minute. Tim, you want to go first? What kind of lies can you remember? Well, the one that stands out for me is it is what it is, how the COVID-19 has been diminished. And we're doing better than the rest of the world as far as how we're handling and treating the population for this virus. And that's the big lie. That's been the big lie since February. And we say he double-downs. No, he triple-downs. He quadruples down. He won't let go of it. And that's why we have over 160,000 American deaths. And rising fast. Any other lies you're going to be able to talk about? He's saying it's disappearing. He's saying that kids don't get it. That's one of my favorite. How about you, Cynthia? It's going away. It's going away. It's like all things go away. It's going away. Just like all things. He couldn't even come up with an example for how other things go away and name a thing. No, no, like all things go away. It'll go away. Disappearing. Yeah. And he's still advocating. I mean, the numbers are up all over the country. And he's still advocating to reopen the economy. And forget the fact that we're in a pandemic and people are dying. What did you say, Tim? 160,000. And he's still advocating going back to school. Now, one thing I've heard, and I would like you guys to opine about this, is that people are starting to, I mean, people in generally, even people in or around those bases, and people, officials in government, are starting to ignore him. Stephanie, do you hear that? Do you see that? Do you understand that? Yes. And I recommended that they start doing that in 2015 or whatever he first came on. It's way long overdue. Thank you very much. And I did see that announcement at one of the major networks that we're not, we only stay with him while he's on the topics. As soon as he veers from the topics of his purpose, we don't show him anymore. So they've made it clear that's what they're doing. Thank you very much. We need to ignore him. Well, let me carry this a little forward, Winston, is, you know, these are lies. I mean, I don't know how you guys feel, but these are lies. They're not little white lies. They're big black lies. Now, you can say it's, you know, sort of organic brain syndrome. But I think, see how you feel. He knows, he knows that what he is saying is a lie. It's a lie. It's a black lie. I mean, there's only one way to define it. I mean, if you say that, no, they're not lies, that he really believes in this stuff, then, you know, that then we're talking about a failure of non-compassmentus. We're talking about an inability to think properly. But so the question is, where does it tilt for you, Winston? Are these lies or are they just sort of mental mistakes? Well, it depends on what your definition of truth and facts are. So if you're a fan of alternative facts, then these are absolutely not lies. These are just presented from a position of those who really understand, say, it's an incredible job that we've done, which is what Donald Trump said in the interview. Now, for those of us on the other side, and we say, yeah, it's an incredible job you've done, as in not done, I think you could take that both ways. But as far as in his mind, he will never admit that he was deficient or wrong in any way. I haven't seen it yet. Maybe you all have access to different information. In his mind, I think that he is doing what he needs to do in whatever way he's doing it. But the facts bear very different evidence. And it doesn't matter almost who you compare us to, the United States is having some very serious difficulties. But there are bright spots out there. There are packs of governors coming together. There are states- Before you go to that, I would like to examine his mind on it. Cynthia, what do you think? Are these little white lies? Are they something that in his morality, they're okay and they're somehow justified as he calls himself the cheerleader? The reality is different for him and therefore he can make these statements. Or are they lies in the old fashioned sense? What do you think? They are lies and they are very intentional lies. I don't think it's just a mistake. I think he knows that they're lies. He has undermined the whole meaning of lies and truth in our society so that none of us really know what to believe anymore. How do we know? Then we get the infighting going. And all of this is right in line with the dictator's playbook. You've got to divide the people. You've got to vilify the press. Then you've got to launch a propaganda campaign. And that's what he's done. And that's what his lies are doing. They're just propaganda. How extraordinary is it, Tim, that we have a president who lies 20,000 times plus? In my view, I agree with Cynthia on this. They're black lies. There's no way, an alternative truth, it's a black lie. I don't know how you define it otherwise. Let's assume that it's a black lie and he keeps on going and doing it. So what about the people out there? A lot of them buy these lies. They accept these lies. This base swears by these lies. What do we get from that? What kind of strange culture are we developing for a president? A president who lies and people really get off on that? Well, first off, it is a lie, but to use an antiquated phrase, a bold-faced lie. And I think we keep forgetting who we're dealing with. And Mary Trump has said it best. He's damaged. He is organically mentally damaged. And from that, all things flow. So therefore, he can't help himself. He is a compulsive liar. And the operative word is compulsive. He can't help himself. He lies even when he doesn't need to lie. But in this case, his lies have cost 160,000 deaths of American citizens. There's the tragedy of it right there. He's lied through his entire administration for four years, but this time his lies have cost lives. I want to get to that as a legal concept. Something out of law school is like fraud. Fraud is where you make a misstatement. You know it's false. You know that somebody out there is going to rely on that misstatement to the detriment of that person. And then the person actually suffers the detriment. It's like the elements of an offense. And what you get, take him out of the president's room a minute and have him lie to people on the street as an ordinary citizen. And they die. They die because he misguided them in an intentional way. He knew they would rely on it. They did rely on it and they died. In the ordinary world, that's murder. You could call it civil murder instead of criminal murder, but it's murder anyway. So we have 160,000 people. I am led logically to the notion that he has killed a good number of those people who relied on him, were confused by him, and he knew they would accept his lies. He knew they would be misguided and he knew they would die. Any reaction to that? Stephanie, do you think there's murder here? Well, Jay, I have some help from Mary Trump's book. But as I understand cognition, we build it for each other. Humans build each other's cognitions. And we especially do it as parents to young children. If you take a young child from the wolf, a feral child, that somehow we're Tarzan, he wouldn't have turned out like the movie show. He would have turned out with a different mental structure entirely. So I try to understand it from the standpoint that he doesn't have that category of lies built in, either because he was str- Are you saying he gets the insanity defense? I don't know if you call that insanity. It's incapacity, isn't it? Incompetence, a mismatch. But this is the same thing. Incapacity and insanity is a legal defense. But sociopaths, psychopaths, okay, when you talk to them about guilt or reflection or feeling, they don't have them. That they're not there to evoke. So I maintain his empathy is not there to evoke. His sympathy is not there to evoke. He doesn't have it. Things happen to him, as Mary Trump explained in the book, either through direct instruction or his observation and learning from what happened to his older brother and what it is that his father did. I mean, these are the kinds of things that shape your mind. You grow your mind from your parents and those who influence you as a child coming up. So his whole schema is quite different. What about accountability? Do we forgive him? Well, that is the question. In fact, my stepdaughter just was suffering over having to, you know, be a juror for somebody who was just terribly abused as a child. And the question was, what do you do? I mean, he was broken. Okay, all right. Winston, what do you think? Do we forgive him? Is he not accountable for this? Well, I mean, ultimately, he is accountable for everything that the president is accountable for, but in his mind, he's doing an excellent job. And I do we forgive him? Do we forgive him? What Stephanie was saying was important is that he is not capable of empathy or sympathy, as the rest of us understand. He and now, as Mary said, he had a damaged childhood that has affected him throughout life. And now we are all suffering the consequences of that. But as Cynthia said, and underscoring that is important, is that these lies, if they are lies, or if they're untruths or whatever we want to call them, the media has been very timid about saying he just lied, which I never quite understood. I think it's because we want to have a reverence for the presidency. And I think we still do. And normal people want to respect and value our leaders and trust them. So they've been saying, OK, could you get on board when he reads that? But he's not able to distinguish, and Tim was saying the same thing, he's not able to distinguish the truth from a lie. So as far as forgiving someone, it's, you know, that's up to the individual people who have been affected by this. But our entire nation is going to have to come to some sort of mental understanding after we get through this, not just with COVID, but for the entire path of destruction that has been wrought upon our society in every way. And that forgiveness, ultimately, we're going to have to forgive ourselves because half of us have been dragged along as supporters of Donald, unwittingly dragged along, I think in most cases. Well, put yourself on a jury, Winston. Let's assume there's a trial and somebody claims that he, you know, did murder or he did manslaughter by lying to people who relied on those lies and died. Do you forgive him? Do you send him to some sort of institution for, you know, the mentally incapacitated or do you punish him? You know, look, I mean, we don't punish our past presidents in this nation, and that's not going to happen here. I think what normal people are doing who have been awake for the last four years is realizing they're, especially in COVID, there is no leadership from the top that's discernible. It's up to individuals to protect themselves for our cities, for our states, for our compacts and regions to come together and protect us as best as they can. So, you know, as far as trying to pin anything on the federal government on Donald Trump, it's not going to happen. Well, they say, you know, they say, Cynthia, that, you know, that that people would have conducted themselves differently had there been leadership. That another person, another leader in the president's office would not have done the lies and would have been able to stop or ameliorate, you know, the disease. Now there's 160,000 souls out there who have been punished to the, you know, the final degree. They've been killed. They can't speak to us. They're dead. And if we all sat around here and counted to 160,000, we'd be busy for a month counting. If we all sat around here and counted to 4.5 million in this country, we'd be sitting around for a long time counting. All those souls are gone. Who speaks for them? What would you do on a jury? Well, I could separate the COVID cases and deaths from the healthcare workers that have died. Now, we may not be able to pin every single death on him because it is a virus and he didn't bring it here, we hope. But every single healthcare worker that died because of lack of PPE, that is directly his responsibility. No question in my mind. So if I sat on a jury, I would definitely find him guilty of that. And, you know, not charging presidents after they leave office might just change here with this president. We've got stuff coming into the southern district of New York that shows fraud all the way back through all of his real estate dealings and everything else, which proves that's his MO. I think you're talking about the Manhattan District's attorney, Cyrus Vance, which is a state investigation, state prosecution, which can operate without the problem of Trump pardoning himself. Okay, I just wanted to ask you guys about that. Let me open another area. How are we doing on vaccines? Seems to be a lot of action here. I don't see that Trump is involved in it. I mean, he's still hyping hydrohydroxychloroquine and other irrelevant medicines. But the question is, how are we doing on a vaccine? That I think the experts will agree is the solution to this whole problem. Tim, what are we doing these days? How good are our efforts here and elsewhere? Well, I think the efforts are moving forward. I believe that there's money to be made from these vaccines. So private industry is seizing the opportunity. And the third trials are taking place. And we will have a vaccine. It won't be as fast as Donald Trump thinks it's going to be. And he's been saying that since February of 2020, that it's just around the corner. We all know that not only do you have to do the trials for the vaccine, but now you have to do production and distribution. So then that's great. I think we're going to have a vaccine. I don't know how well it's going to, you know, if it's going to be a lifetime vaccine or it's an annual vaccine, like a flu shot, we don't know that yet. What I'm worried about is the anti-vaxxers and a certain population, a percentage of population that's going to say, no, we're not doing it. Or there's going to be people like I know, or even myself going, I'm certainly not going to be in the first wave of guinea pigs to try this vaccine out. It's a frightening thought. So we'll see. We'll see to what percent people will line up and get their shot. Yeah. Well, Stephanie, you know, there are some 200 candidates out there. There are people working on vaccines in various places in this country. I think it's couple, it's clear that we're not collaborating with other countries. Everybody working on it independently, which is that's a Trump problem. I mean, I read this morning that it was a promising vaccine in Israel, believe it or not, which runs an interesting parallel scientifically to the U.S. So the question is, how confident can we be? Anthony Fauci telling us to be cautiously optimistic. Others are not. Does the public have a handle on this? And by the way, in terms of Israel, I looked at the COVID report in this morning's edition of a popular newspaper in Israel called Aritz. And it went on and on for pages. It told you about all the cases. It told you about all the, you know, the events in the country, the development of the vaccine and all the cases and what people were saying and doing. It was so clear. It was so useful. It gave you a complete snapshot. We don't have that. We don't have that statewide. We don't have that federally for sure. But the question is, how do people feel about it? How do you feel about it? Do you share Tim's concern over the possibility that being in a trial is dangerous? Or for that matter, taking what people ultimately say, even if it's approved by the FDA, do you feel that that would be dangerous? Would you take it? Well, I'm like Tim. I probably won't do first, Janie Piglet. I'm not sure I won't. I've been paying attention to what's happening. And I am very encouraged since I've heard about the Moderna work. And DJ and Jay is involved in that. And also in, you know, Spass or Friend, there's another organization that's involved in this very early trial that just started Phase 3, where they actually injected humans and they have a double-blind experimental design to test it. So, and I understand that my concern was that they had just revved it up. And so what was missing, you know, what did we miss? But what they've done is instead of going sequentially or serially through the steps, they've done overlap work. And with statistics and with careful timing, you know, they've been able to get one phase overlapped with another phase to be productive for what they need to know out of it. So the point is that I've got much more confidence in these large pharmaceutical companies taking this on. And certainly the government, our government is loading them down with millions and millions and billions of dollars. So these are companies with capacity already, histories, you know, duration of effect in the things that they produced earlier. So there's a lot of variables here that can build confidence. But I think the point is that the American people need to know more about this. Now, this was, I think, I mean, NPR was one source and there are other sources here. Yeah, well, I want to go to that. I want to go to that with Winston. You know, Winston, we had a show yesterday. The guy named Dave Clemens out of White Biotech and a fellow named Axel Lara was a researcher at John A. Burns School of Medicine. And they are here. They're within a few miles of where we're all sitting. And they are working on a vaccine. They are working on a COVID vaccine right now. And what came out of that show, and he described as if you're interested, he described as Axel Lara described exactly what he was doing in the laboratory. So the lesson of this show was that it's not just Moderna. It's not just one or the other. It's not just American. It could be Chinese. Chinese are also the skipping trials in China. They're just doing the best candidate they see on a logic basis. And as I said, Israel's got one. And they all got one. And the lesson that came out of that, Winston, is that there are going to be many possible vaccines. They're not all going to be the same. And the public in this country, the public that you and I know are going to have some difficult choices if more than one is on the market. What are you going to do if Trump continues on his confusion and his confusion initiative and confuses everybody. If he picks one, like hydroxychloroquine and pumps that for reasons that are not clear, but are suspicious, are you going to take that one? How are you going to decide? Are you going to take more than one? What are you going to do? Personally, well, you know, it's like shingles. They had the old shingle shot and then they had the new shingle shot. And eventually one of them says, well, you can do both, but this one's probably better in time. We will find out which one's rise to the top. But it's frankly, you know, you're trying untested vaccines is not probably the best thing to do. But for some people, they're going to be like, you know, I need to I need to be vaccinated and I'm just going to try five of them and see which one floats to the top and hope I don't get something out of it. But you know, the other thing about this is that strikes me is that we deserved Donald Trump as our leader in this country right now because of our complete bankruptcy morally, educationally financed spiritually. This is the result of what we get when we have seen the hollowing out of our society over the past many decades. And you know, people always want to assign blame somewhere. But basically, we can just look ourselves in the mirror and our neighbors. And now we have to figure out, okay, this is where we are. And we may be, I know it sounds crazy at this time, fortunate that this is all that it is or and this is the three o'clock in the morning call on a different scale. But we can be thankful. So when we're moving forward, we're going to establish different norms, policies of well, not different norms back traditional norms, policies, procedures, guidelines, we're going to have a much better system coming out of this. This is my hope and prayer. And we're seeing it in a lot of different areas. But for right now, it's grim. I was just saw it. I agree. It's grim. And they're going to make mistakes about, you know, selecting one or the other, assuming that there are, you know, vaccines out there, you know, can you trust the FDA? Can you trust the CDC? Remember, that guy controls all the federal agencies. And he's going to be out in 90 days. Okay, we have a question. Let me, let me, okay, what is the role of, oh, that very interesting, the Kushners in all of this, they have no job description, which means they can do as they please. Cynthia, how are they, how are the Kushners involved in this? And, you know, in the initiative to confuse people in these false steps, these false truths to lay on the public, especially now when everybody is getting his or her hopes up, that there will be a solution, especially if you're the fact that we know that this administration is interested really in only one thing, staying in power. So what are you, what kind of confidence do you ascribe to the moves by the Kushners? What is their role? Well, they own and have financial dealings in lots and lots of companies. I don't know all of them, but some of them are pharmaceutical companies. So it stands to reason that they do have a hand in this. And that is sort of where they can make changes or award contracts to the preferred companies. And I think you're wrong about that they only have one thing in their minds for a goal, and that is to stay in power. I think they have two, and it's to make money. And I think that that making money thing is underneath every decision. I wouldn't disagree with you. You know, Tim, here we are, we spoke earlier about how people including government people are losing confidence. You know, one of the inspector generals that came up through the pipeline because he fired another one quit yesterday. Even people, you know, sitting in government positions, officials are rebelling against these lies and against this confusion. But when we get there, when we get closer to the election, my prediction, if you want me to make a prediction, I would predict we're going to have a huge amount of confusion about the about a vaccination about which one works, which one doesn't work, which one is closer, which one is further. And Cynthia's point is well taken. I mean, it could be that Trump, you know, for reasons of money wants to promote one against the other and all that. What role is this issue likely to play? And the confusion around it likely to play as we get into October, November, even before any, any approved vaccine comes out. How is this going to, you know, get all scrambled into the election process? I think you have to look at the what the environment's going to look like in late October, November. Right now we're summertime. And this country's having 1000 deaths a day. This is supposed to be kind of like the quiet period before the second wave. Well, we've never gotten out of the first wave. We're in the throes of it. And summertime is supposed to be the easy time. And so when we get into, you know, bad weather situations across the country, we're going to see this number climb higher and higher if something's not done immediately. So I think there's going to be societal pressure on the administration to either stop lying and more drastic measures because the death toll, the death count, is getting what already is outrageous and out of hand, but it's getting more so. And once middle America starts feeling the, you know, the brunt of these deaths, which they're now finally starting to do, there's going to be more pressure on the administration. And it's going to affect the votes. It definitely will affect how people feel and vote for Donald Trump or not vote for Donald Trump. So I think that's step one. And then step two is there's just going to be pressure again of more transparency about what our options are as far as a vaccine or a treatment. Yeah. Well, that goes and also goes to the whole balance between taking the, you know, the reasonable steps of masks, you know, really convincing people because they're not convinced yet. You know, it takes only a few people to blow up the curve, right? We know that we've seen that in so many states. So we have the problem about reopening and balance with the problem about, you know, enforcing the rules about masks and social distancing and, and of course, supporting testing and that's a whole new show, testing and tracing. So, you know, Winston, I mean, are we going to reopen before November? Are we actually going to do it? Are people going to go along with that? Because right now there's a lot of resistance on reopening the schools. What's your prediction on reopening? Before November or schools or tourism, I don't know about either one of them because with our case numbers going up, I mean, we had 35 cases a day when we shut down in the spring. Now we're up to like 180 here in Hawaii. There's positive signs here though, Jay. We got this local test coming out from OceanDip, which will give you a positive reading in 10 minutes. It's 20 bucks. So he's coming on the show next week, by the way, we're going to hear about that. And so we're getting positive signs like that. We're getting local leadership that says, you know what, we can't open this thing up. If these schools start opening up, we're going to have to see mask surges here. But, but we're also finding out that there are certain groups that are more prone to getting this. And so we can target information to them and, and control measures. So I think that there's, there's hope on the horizon for this, but we're in for a lot more death before this thing is over. And so everybody out there, you got to just protect yourself and your family as best as you can and use common sense and, and, you know, mask with a low hand. That's what's happened is that people are shoved off from the advice from the Rose Garden. People are making their own decisions. Governors and mayors are making their own decisions. They have clear and that is kind of their chaos in that way, because all those decisions are not the same. So Stephanie, have you got any wisdom to close? Tell us, you know, what we should be thinking about. Tell us, you know, give us comfort. You know, as I mentioned, Michelle Obama is depressed over all the lies out of the Rose Garden. How do you feel? And what is your wisdom? Try to give us comfort, will you? I'd love to give you comfort, but we've got two issues, equity and numbers. And the equity issues have to do with who will be privileged to have access to these vaccines. And under that is who's going to give America vaccines. And that gets us to the next point, which is the numbers, we're 350 million. We're one of the biggest. And so who Israel is going to give us their vaccine? Well, even if they did and the Kushner's got to take it, nobody else much is going to be able to. So there's a lot that hasn't been worked out yet. I think the, the news is there's more work to do to understand what coordination there's going to be for all of this and how it's going to get distributed. And I have seen that, you know, they are starting to look at vials and needles and here we go again on the supply part of it, because we could have the vaccine tomorrow. And unless you can suck it up in a straw, we're not going to be able to use it. And then the question of course is who's going to get to use it first. So I mean, there seem to be some consensus about health workers need to have that happen. But I can't give any comfort, except that my confidence is high that we are going to have a vaccine because we have the capacity to do that. We have the the the expertise that can bring that to us. And we could have had it long ago if we'd had the same question to you. You know, one of my favorite lies that Trump has given most recently is, you know, we're doing better than anyone else. And that is such a fantastic black lie. We're doing worse than anyone else. And the numbers are so clear, especially Asia. And, you know, there, what's interesting is the United States has become a testing laboratory for the world to watch in pity. They, they learn from us how not to do it. And they've and they and they do better. It's an interesting flip over here, aside from getting to the economic question. But you know, how do you feel about this? You know, the medicine, it's all it's all it's all over the map. There's all these possibilities, but none of them are real yet. And none of them are they none of them in gender confidence. You've looked at that. So how do you feel about it? My biggest fear is the schools opening up in some of the states that that refuse to go against what Trump says and go by the numbers that are in their own state. Some didn't do wine just even even in Governor, do I just recently test positive? So that start to test positive, they might consider it a little bit differently. I just know that people in each state need to be able to make their decisions because of the way it's been part and parceled out. And it's too late for him to try and say, well, I'm going to give each governor power, but only if you do what I say. So and I have all this noise going on. I think there's a Coast Guard helicopter right outside my window looking for someone, which is what all that noise is in the background. Also drowned right outside my window. So I'm sorry for all the background noise here. There isn't any. Let me go to let me go to Tim here at the end. You know, Tim, this is going to play in the election. And we may or may not have a meaningful and the question and the question is Biden is Biden handling this properly? Would you handle it differently if you were Biden? I think his strategy is working well. And that is to kind of be there, but let Donald Trump's, you know, idiocy and his, his statements, take the stage and form the electorate. And so, you know, I'm not saying Biden's hanging, hanging like a bass in the weeds, but he is, he's not as engaged as you might think he should be. But I think as time gets closer to the election, yes, he'll get more engaged. And I think he's going to do quite well in the debate. So other people think that he's going to, that's where Donald Trump retains the presidency because Biden's going to fall flat on his face. And I don't believe that's going to happen. So I think the strategy right now is to be a, you know, to be solid in its way of thinking and reassuring to the public of what he says. So I think he's on the right track. He'll get more engaged as time goes on. Okay, we'll see. We'll follow it. We'll follow it here. We'll follow it on your Trump week show. Thank you so much, you guys. Tim Epicellus, Stephanie Tolton, Winston Welch, Cynthia Sinclair. It's very, very important we do this. So I'll see you again soon for more. Aloha.