 Baiklah, terima kasih kepada semua orang. Saya akan berjumpa lagi dalam sebuah session RxD. Sekarang kita akan mempunyai chat dengan IGT. Sebelum itu, saya rasa kita akan memberikan sesuatu yang berlaku untuk mempunyai seseorang yang mempunyai keluarga di sini. Saya akan berjumpa lagi dalam sebuah session RxD. Alessia, saya akan berjumpa lagi dalam sebuah session RxD. Helo semua, saya Alessia, manager general RxD 66. Saya akan berjumpa lagi dalam sebuah session RxD. Saya tahu anda datang untuk mendengar bahasa ini dan bukan saya. RxD 66 ini adalah sebuah pembentangan yang baru. Kita berpunyai untuk menggantikan industri tradisional dengan teknologi. Kita tahu bahawa banyak-banyak industri, terutamanya yang tradisional, seperti yang benar-benar dikenali, masih sangat tradisional. Kita ingin menggantikan industri ini dengan barang baru, seperti barang perjalanan, barang perjalanan, barang perjalanan dan desain. Jadi, kami sangat gembira menemui anda di sini malam ini. Saya sangat gembira mendengar bahasa ini. Jadi, saya tidak akan mengambil masa lagi. Jika anda ingin tahu lebih banyak tentang RxD 66, saya akan berada di seluruh malam ini. Jadi, berseronoklah. Helo, saya Alessia. Saya akan berjumpa lagi dalam sebuah session RxD. Saya akan berjumpa lagi dalam sebuah session RxD. Berikutnya, bagaimana makanan dan minyak? Terima kasih untuk Katlin yang menghasilkan sebuah session RxD. Jadi, mereka dan Katlin tidak ada di sini, tapi saya akan berkongsi apa yang mereka lakukan. Jadi, mereka menghubungi penerbangan, dan penerbangan yang biasanya akan mencari kemahiran yang tidak terlalu besar. Pada beberapa hari, akan ada 2 menerbangan, jadi, saya menjagakan apa yang ada di sekarang. Erh, orang-orang akan mencari kemahiran, dan nanti kita cuba. Jadi, penerbangan akan ada di sana. Okey, mari kita cari. Aditi, ambil kocik tu. Terima kasih kerana menonton masa ini. Setidaknya, saya akan berjumpa lagi. So just to explain a bit about the format of the meetup is that usually there is no slides and it's not like the traditional meetup where you have a speaker and you just like talk all day round and go through their slides So I think we will call our format a bit like the Jimmy Fallon top show because I am not as funny as you are Jimmy Fallon of course but it's the kind of top show format so hold on and the quality of this session is really as good as not just my questions but a lot of questions or the things that you want to ask about like for example, Zhang Loh, I was looking for a job for a friend and I was thinking about what are the criteria to be in the next industry So feel free to ask any questions Anity you are from where probably can be a business startup So this will give a hint if you are curious about design and start or how is it like looking at the start environment how does UX come into play in a very fast-paced UX within the start place So feel free to throw this question out So let's go ahead and start by asking how do you get to where you want to be or what you want to be Okay, alright So I started off 10 years ago as a graphic designer in France and then the moment I graduated I switched straight to digital do a lot of apps and website design projects out there in those days and I jumped straight into that went straight into research and UX and then then brought me to startups and so we are right now and the graphic designer which is a startup in Singapore So I think not everyone is talking about how it can be used So if you do it in the next slide Okay, so rental family is an automated service that installs the rental program on any online store It's super easy to use you can install it easily and we also have another product called Kanipa This is a brand new product which we actually just launched yesterday which is a digital arts program for small and medium businesses So I guess our big vision is we try to make products and services for small and medium retailers try to basically have them become more successful try to get them to become more digital and all that so these are the two main products and how many is it? who is it? So our design team is pretty small we are just 4 of us including me and totally we are about 15 of us so we have 8 engineers 8-10 engineers and 4 marketing people and then 4 designers we also have 15 person team who are our customer service team so that's pretty much it it's a small team everybody loves some product you know everybody hands on product which is typical of style and when you take on the role what was the state of the style when you took on the role it was doing pretty well I think when I joined one of the most important roles was to establish like design experience and to get a design process more integrated sometimes that ends up happening naturally and then you have to do a lot of delivery work to ensure that designers and engineers are working really well together so that's a very important part of my role and of course working with Katnipa which is a brand was super challenging we had to work with them it's still a very new product so a lot of my energy goes into that so we're designing almost everything so like 4 designers and 8 engineers so for this company how is the process like to share all the screens structure so that's very interesting we do a lot of user research we have about I guess 10 to 12 retailers who are our sort of beta retailer we have a special group of people who use Katnipa since the beginning and they're seeing the product evolve so they really support us and we go straight from research into prototyping releasing something within 2-3 days back to the user seeing whether it's working so for example in the last 4 months we redesigned the product 4 times from scratch because it's a really fast-paced thing where you don't have time to make wireframes and then do visual design so in this process you have to jump straight from insights to build your product and because I'm also working with my sound start the common challenge is here I have this idea of this new feature so let's launch it let's put it in our product so right now I think what happens is the user is clean in that but if it doesn't work if it's not used then we know it's actually a failure so I think new switch and engagement is very important so metrics are really important and we measure everything so you may make a really cool web saying that this feature is going to solve all the problems but the moment it's actually out in the real world and you can actually see is anyone actually paying for this product and that's the real evaluation and that's when you know that's important so you talk about measuring data so is it just quantity data that you measure I think one really good service is called food story where you can do both the quantitative and qualitative measurements so you can actually watch sessions of people using your product in real life I think we also do a learn usability testing by going to the retailer shops and seeing how it's being used and talking to people so you have to sort of balance both those things so just for your info usually the first part of the session is about building context which is why I'm like I wonder if you guys have context of the background and what she just say so if you have idea so so back to the team so when you were email 24 309 I think they were 2 designers and then we moved the team to 4 so they were hiring 2% so I was talking about hiring so I believe how long it was I think hiring is very difficult but I think it's difficult for everyone I think one way to make hiring easier especially for design is to talk about the work that you're doing in your company that naturally attracts the kind of designers who want to do that work so write about it do whatever you can probably the other team who first met was as many people as you can to find the right kind of talent but yeah it's pretty much you have to do the work and I believe there are a lot of people who want to enter the industry so what do you perform in terms of hiring it's super interesting I believe startup nobody really cares what do you have like we have an ex lawyer who is an engineer right now so it doesn't matter it's more about I'm really interested in this role is this something you really want to do and then you can always learn the skills on the job is this person truly interested in tech and that's part of it the other part is actually learning this which is actually not that hard so I just look for that interest also if somebody is truly interested they should have something to prove that they're truly interested rather than just looking for a job so that's really a good indicator I'm just going to learn into the skills that you're interested in that's another thing I record some people are so excited they want to show you this product it doesn't matter how good it is it's just oh that person is truly excited about learning it that's always something to perform you can always tell if somebody is really excited or some app you can just tell this person really likes this product and that's something I look forward to so I'm interested you may put in a career but you're on the side so you want to learn a bit more sure, I actually have some slides but I think I always like to stress people who use their product but yeah this is some of my graphic design work initially I worked in a leatherback factory for a year and a half I ended up doing the interviews of the store I used to do low design so an example of conference branding that I did I also did a lot of research in India and small towns and villages in India I mean, in Indian context small I didn't become so much smaller as before I, many years ago, worked in an arranged marriage website and anyone need an arranged marriage but just to be clear I didn't do the design of this page it was purely research so I took a break from designing to become a researcher for a year and a half I guess you don't know more about research I did a lot of apps feature on the app store in those days I worked on I guess a lot of projects in tech, of course industries and so on so I just to answer your question I have jumped around a lot in various industries within design I literally tried everything that I could just to find what I like to work on I'm curious for the leatherback what do you do there in the leatherback actually that's a picture of an auntie who actually makes the bags like all the factory workers and what I did was I was initially hired as a graphic designer I ended up doing by anything that was around in those days Facebook pages were very new so I commit to start a service media for fire and animal eventually even though my job was to do the rapid design of the price tags that was my crucial role and then we ended up designing another interesting stuff we also own some restaurants so I designed a menu just random stuff and then something very interesting was we made these foods for their stores and it was through a really ancient process called sandmasking so we used to sandmask the brown stream so I had to get all of this meat at the factory and it was a really super interesting experience of course it was the opposite but still very interesting and I'm excited I did a lot of box work actually in this world and I had to fabricate these huge elements and send them to each and every store and it had to reach on time so I had a lot of marketing managers after me where are my interior pictures from my store it was super interesting and I just took whatever I found it was nice so it was an interesting role I did last very long and and and on the user research one of which you were on or like don't have time so I mean who is doing like few research on the ground or user research and you know of individual and extra about people so I have not done any research in India but of course in Singapore I'm very curious how different is it very different and one of the things if we are being asked to go to India and do a few research I think what's important is you have to have a sense to regular person so like you know so you always have to go you know and depending on who you are you have to switch it on in some of the smaller towns we have a number of heads and we are very sensitive this was a six month long research project for mafia and stuff like that and in those days yeah yeah I I don't know about all of the videos of the project now but it was just you know we were doing research for some telecom companies and Nokia to understand how do people in small towns use internet and yours we were basically just getting high level insights to get internet because so so they have to go to cybercapades why do people go to cybercapades at what time and how did that happen so it was just like we were trying to understand the context super interesting we were also frustrated because at the end of the project we needed that and then the design was getting there and we don't know what they were going to do with it so it was no need to be serious because for the first time I was not in cyber and I didn't have control over what was going to happen so as a researcher all you can do is try to communicate as much as you can and then hope that it lasts down to one as it was designed so that was interesting and I learned a lot about software development and if it takes really long it's not going to happen so for preparation for this kind of role you didn't actually have any research for you for research or so this was our company for the edge of fire and they sent us for six months training we trained in how to do it with you it was very intense how to do persuasive interviews it's almost like a parent session where you speak to someone for two hours and really dig deep into why you need to know so we were trained beforehand most of the team was psychologists and I was the only example which was interesting and then everybody sort of worked and worked the technical role was in fact ux so that was your technical role in fact you give us a kind of context about when is there 20s no i'm not that old i think this is about 7 years i think ux was definitely a joke and i was very obsessed but it was still a time when you had to explain to the form of ux you had to experience and in every meeting you had to have a study so that you can understand yes because i would complain that you're using acronyms which you don't understand but now of course it's been a great time for ux and we know so i mean we have so many and going to different phases of your work to sign down and here's the video for sure so what do you think is the biggest failure oh i'm going to discuss so i think one way to answer that i think has been a continuous series of respondents and assumptions if you really look at the whole sort of everything that we've worked on that i've worked on for a hundred years there's always something that doesn't go right i think my first few jobs were very prestigious for me as a new designer because i was always like this isn't good enough so definitely the first few years were really fine for me but i was trying to find the right fit there's no real big failure and the standard is when i didn't get into the college i wanted to get into so i first i've always gotten into every school that i ever went into in my whole life and then i did my master's i didn't get into my first choice which was UC at the time and i really crushed me and i was like oh doesn't mean i'm not a good designer and i was next to the worst position but it stands out because i was younger and it felt like a big failure so that stands out other than that i think nothing has really been that much for me after that i wouldn't call it smooth sailing very difficult but it's been a bit more after that and how about success and what do you mean by success if you mean projects where the cars go funding or they don't feature on the app store or all of that there's so many but i think one thing that i'm really proud of is this project i really enjoy working on it as a designer and i'm really proud of the work and it's still an event that's happening today every year which is good another project that i personally do is this one this is just a wireframe but it's a hospital project that i worked on in India and they still use this app that we made for them 4 years ago which i feel really proud of and it was an app to help the doctors and nurses to test more easily and stuff like that so it took us 1.5 years to know this but they still use it which i find to be a good success and then of course there's this project which i developed in an agency but the clients were super happy so they didn't take out of it which i feel never take that as a success i guess but then it depends if the client is happy with the success or only you will be happy and then there's postman so postman did really well he got a bunch of funding and he got a lot of apps you know across various platforms we end up hitting like 4-5 million users like a year so yeah there's like a bunch of work that did well but personally as a designer i like the ones that i have fun working on so i have a little question but i really hate to give okay i think it depends on the form yes i have a team i haven't got an outsourcing but they are the customer supporting so we also have 2 engineers there and they are basically the customer supporting based on the opinions so we have a different function of course any other questions? so you just mention that you work in a design agency as well as now you're working in start so question is that how does your process differ while working in a design agency where you have problem to actually go through the whole process i think it's very clear which one i prefer obviously i prefer to start up but i think it's every designer has their own preference i think the main difference is like i was saying i think i think i think i think like i was saying in agency you try to make the client happy and no matter how much you try to care about the users you are incentivized to make the client happy and i enjoyed it and my aim was to make the client happy and i was in charge of accounts i was catered so part of part of the role is to perform and to keep them in this happy state so i think that's sometimes where you can start up where everybody is aligned on the same exact which is we need to make a better product for customers so that we also better off it's a very different way of working and it's also a different way i think agencies the contacts are structured are hourly you're being paid hourly and all of that also affects how you work as a designer so if i am being if my time is going to be like $200 an hour and that's how it's structured then maybe we are incentivized to spend longer to make the project so i think it's start up step and just never happen you do want to finish you are only willing to research and for one role just making another product the other thing that agency was we tried we tried to do product accelerators there are many sort of hybrid structures which actually do really well so you could try that too i did quite a few product accelerators which made me realize hey, this is amazing and we should do more product so yeah i think it just depends what kind of designer you are and how you want to what you want to try at that time the great thing about Insolvency you can try so many different kinds of projects in like 4 months you can do 4 different apps and try so many things so that's also an advantage of doing different projects together so like for someone who is new may i comment another thing before so like do you recommend them to go into an agency or like a startup or i don't know i guess i'm very buzzed so i would say start up and product but again it's up to you as a designer you should choose whatever you want to do and then just try that there's no harm trying something for a few months to see if it works and then if it doesn't work, try something else i think a lot of designers who are new to the industry feel the pressure to for their career to make sense but don't feel that pressure like i remember even my best postman a lot of people gave me advice that oh you are in the API industry you have to join the developer to the product okay so it's very interesting i think some people feel that there has to be this narrative that i'm here and so my next step has to be here but actually you should just do whatever it excites you and whatever it gives you and then have fun here so you have something you can see forks here like oh you have something to say as well so what do you all think about the differences in the process in the product and the product that is what my question is that was that is exactly what in agency we don't follow the process so you said that in startup so does that mean that the whole process is going to be done or i actually think the process is done and i think it's good to have a really good design process and i really like the structure and design process that happens in the agency but you have to know when to create the rules and i think the problem is much documentation like when you have an index for everything it's a waste of time for everyone but everyone is there and everyone knows what the insights go why make a debt because there's no client to give you the debt so you are sort of trapped in this so called documentation and you have to make an 80-side debt about all the backers then you have to make a 100-side debt for the visual design that doesn't happen we still follow the process of calls we still do results because you are not trapped in that deliverable service that's any another difference between being product and being in a consultancy setup yes you said that you brought out the design spray in your current role now please fair as an example as anything that you do different you know the case as an example as an example ok so i guess it's both design and engineering working together in a product spend so usually what happens is that a designer and engineer pair up together and then choose something to work on and then to work on that thing we have 2 weeks spins you can choose what kind of spins you want and then over those 2 weeks design an engineer, collaborate build up various spins push to production see if it's working so it just depends on what they're working on it could be a really small change but they usually have a goal so for example why don't you work on increasing sign of conversion by 10% just as an example and then at the end of the spring you will check ok when you guys successful and what you guys want so it's very sort of independent process i think that each person has to have ownership of the thing that they're doing you know things like on you say or having done i think the other thing is that there's no requirements it's not like these other list of features that you have to build it's the 2 individuals who decide is that actually going to affect the user in no way that you want to affect the user so that's like i guess the idea of sprint process the thing with sprint is that every sprint is slightly different it never repeats itself and so it's always a learning process you know if you go wrong and then you have a retro and you try to understand what went wrong and then the next sprint is that you don't need to stay in the same stage again if you change it and keep trying so before you join a program you were there yes they were so it's kind of like i think most startups already has sprints i have rarely seen a startup that doesn't use sprints you know most teams and also retro panties and other panties so they are already pretty good at working you know i'm just like hello so that's pretty much sorry because you only have 2 mics now the research we are going to oh that's a great question so we don't have what i would call like research phases or continuous research process it never stops so we have like insane amount of data coming in every day and then it just takes so much data that the designers and engineers can start looking into what you're going to work on so sometimes what happens and i've seen this happen in other teams that you decide to do research for the team and then you plan it that next 2 weeks we do research and we do continuous research we have calls even if it's like pressin me to find out anything because it's always useful to talk to people who are using a startup just 2 days ago i went downstairs in block 71 and i met a family place which is a startup and they were interested in retro panties so i just went and spoke to them that's research so we don't have to be initiated all the time so because of the continuous process we have almost too much data like more than what we know what we will because the amount of data that you get from your research how do you decide which one is to be tackled first that's a good question i think usually we do have some metric so for retro panties it's retro revenue so we want our reviewers to have more and more retro revenue and so for anything that's going to directly impact that gets prioritized and then also if anything is truly effective like if we make a change and we see that that's really effective and we do more of that so that's why sprints are really helpful based on what's working and what's not working and then change what you're doing but of course product prioritization is really hard so we keep trying to get it right that will be the best i think retro revenue is definitely like the most user centered metric that we can choose because if our detail of the house is successful that's great for them and that's for retro panties and retro panties will be costumers and so any new feature or new update that's going to directly impact that will be first and then everything else follows okay thank you hi i'll let you know that user will be interested in retro revenue that will directly go to the house or what do you study for the price specific person can do that what is the key when you say must be done yeah so is that the key structure to be out yeah sure sure i think there's a lot of methodologies out there you know we're exploring user research really testing i think it really depends on how much time you have you know and how basically it's just how much time you have and how much money you have to spend on a razor so with the example of panting a lot of thin tech they tend to have people opposite and do more expensive research in different circumstances and in various centres depending on the kind of thing you're trying to find out for certain money or something like that it's kind of a routine element it's like how to put the cost in the arrangement of certain and what else example in general is project and how do you actually feel about your services but anything else actually what you're doing may not be enough so how do you make the cost of the audience who you are under teacher one and how do you i think you need to do continuous research you know it's not like you can get one thing or something like that it's humans are complicated so it's not like if you do this testing and you have the answer and you know what to do it can only tell you some insights and at some point you do have to make a week of intuition and do the design the testing can only tell you the area which you have to work in and then the designer has to pick up from there and try various experiments and see which experiment so so sorry we need to pass around we can talk we can yes i think that's a great question i think one example that i've personally faced is at postman where we built this teacher for a poor generation and the engineering team spent 4 months living in so you know it's a lot of resources but then when we release it it didn't do very well as you said and then what was required is that the quantity of numbers can only tell you that something is wrong they won't tell you why it's wrong how it's wrong you have to pass by the qualitative you are important and you have to actually go in and investigate the issue from the user research point of view so there's something happening there but you just can't see it because the number just showed it so when i looked into it i found out that it was because the button that launches the future was an icon and nobody understood what the icon was again that was my hypothesis when i saw it and then at that on that day i was like let's just change it to a text link which says poor generation it looks bad but at least it's readable and the icon was too abstract for me so we changed it and that pay this is a really cool new feature that i have so this is the sort of instant feedback that you get in product within a day or two you will know whether the thing that you didn't work or didn't work if there's silence then you know that so as a sort of advantage of working in a product you instantly know as a designer doesn't design work it may look really awesome but normally didn't work so even for my designer at the time it was a really big process because he was stressing out oh my icon isn't good enough but it's not bad it's really hard to make an icon which would work across 4 million people and everybody would get it so it's okay to make that call at that time to see both 4 million and 4 million 4 million is really nice and that it points to in the direction but it won't really tell you how to solve it and you will read that how do you see not the first quality to take most of the raw that it will see several and one i think you know it's just a trial and error process because we are a small team each person is looking at the data you know there are 4 biogas we have to keep checking against the reality of the situation is this real because obviously there is always a chance that what you're looking at is not valid so you have to keep checking one thing that helps us is the quality of the data if something is wrong on either side then you need to keep checking across and i think the customer support team really helps me personally because they have 15 people and they really know the car and they damn good at it and anytime i feel like i have a doubt i can just check with them like they and i have been doing the right thing because we are constantly talking to customers so they really know the latest on what to do actually so i think the other side of view which is the installation okay how do you end up doing interactive installation okay so i did my master's and i was supposed to do an interactive media course but i ended up doing available finance both there and i just decided with my teacher and they told me it didn't matter what my project was and so i still got my but my actual project was finance and i think it was a great way to combine art and technology and the thing about art is that you just do what you want but there's no client and you don't have to justify so it was super interesting and i was really lucky a couple of galleries and when i came back to India a couple of galleries in India also become my one but art world is really different and scary so i had to spend a lot of money i don't know yeah so this is some neon that i did in UK yeah and then the installation that i did in Bombay it's really beautiful you can see the scale here but it's like 70 and it's in the abandoned factory in Bombay and it was super exciting because this little cave on the left hand side she was super excited about it it was a cost management way and in fact an installation and again i just really enjoyed doing something like this for the community in Bombay and all of my work was about the city so so she could actually interact with yeah you can see this one is when you sit in the space and then in your shadow and you can so something like that this was a huge argument in Bombay it was really nice to actually move to the community so yeah this was just something i tried out because i had the opportunity to try it out and for a cell as a designer how do you i think i depend a lot on people that i talk to in the industry have a lot of friends in SF who works there in Bangalore so i can just speak to all three cities i do believe a lot but i think that when you learn from talking to people you learn things about companies that people never write about so you really find out what's happening when it comes to alignment the engineers everybody definitely needs to have central role in startup it's much easier because we're all sitting in the same office it's just quantity or just 10-15 people i think in bigger teams it would be more challenging for sure but we have stand-ups every day we have strict planning we have everything involved everybody is on the same page there are a lot of things you can do to make sure that everybody is on the same page what they're working on for designers we also have a style we do other things to make sure everything is consistent we do reviews in Germany for the design team to make sure we know what everybody is working on because when you're always with engineers what we can do so you can do a bunch of things to make sure you're all on the same page so we are hiring for product designers and senior product designers so if you apply if you're interested my favorite design review question is have you ever had a conflict with an engineer while you're trying to build something that is helpful of how to resolve it so i think it's very very important for designers to be good collaborators to be good people people and know how to work with an engineer we have had a conflict with a developer and how to resolve it yes i have so i think the thing that works is to make sure that engineers are involved in the research process that they attend using the reviews that they are equally you know, interested in solving the product rules like everybody should be try to solve it it shouldn't be about your specialization it doesn't matter if you're a background engineer visual designer, arts designer it should all be about getting the product right and all conflicts are more easy to resolve i think you need to all that trust i was the first designer pure background engineer and traditionally background engineering is something that people think doesn't mean any designer doesn't need ux so it was super super interesting and i really felt good and understanding that one of you so i saw that now i think i can pretty much be at the side but i think one of the thing about that again just making sure that everybody's around and understand that hey, could you at worst see them for back in the year 2 yeah i think that yeah, one day what i was in order was to show that design can instantly impact the product and no developers will find out that hey, my teacher is really doing well out there so it's more of an understanding that they're all on the same team there shouldn't be that design wasn't engineering mindset that's really damaging and it's easier to resolve i really, really that most developers really want to build really awesome things so it's easy i think you should spend some effort understanding the relations and i think learn a little bit of code and understand the material that you're working with so for example an architect you need to understand what are the different types of material what is the building made of how much weight can it carry so similarly as a designer you have to understand the basics of code you have to be able to talk to senior architect and understand what they're saying because if you can't then it's like trying to build a building and making your phone but then the whole thing will fall apart because it doesn't go like how to understand what you're working with and if you develop a field that you don't care that's the beginning of the mistrust yes, i'm very much in charge i think it's like when you work with marketing people you need to try to understand what you're coming from everybody has that deep specialisation but as ux, we have to be collaborative and so we have to take that extra effort to understand everyone and sort of bring it all together so they are very important it's the same energy i developed compared to the previous one so jewey from PDF Australia and the designers in the middle one hand we are working with product people around the region and we have to work with them and we need to get along if you are not a designer today what would you do? i think maybe i'll be an artist but i'm not sure or similar struggling artist or maybe a pilot at some point pilot that's all i think as a graphic designer i design heroes i design highstyle and just a watch and be jubilak i don't have any design heroes that stand out i follow a lot of people on the door and i know a lot of really good designers i think it's rare for a UX person to be like it's mostly like a team effort there is an app that i really admire called iA Writer i really love that and i think that's one of the most iA Writer i think iA Writer is one of the most beautiful examples of perfect interaction design it's just amazing they even it's done by a small agency and it's just a writing app they even made their own font just for the app like they didn't care it's a really amazing product so that's a really something that i really admire okay so any other questions last one so last one from me actually i really appreciate and it has is something that i think i think as a designer we are involved in many we can do many things we will be doing an exposure there are so many opportunities that we could be involved in so and this is like tactics how do you choose when is the next move i think i think for me it's about people that i work with rather than how cool or popular the product is it's always the opportunity to join the crew but for me what's important is to work with really amazing people that you can learn about from because that's how you do as a designer and you can always join the crew so i think even my next step will be about working with really good people who know like a lot more than me and who i can learn from i think instead of why you shoot a film i think i like to explore different worlds of design and i really like so much i had the opportunity to work with better people so i practice so, thank you so much thank you okay, so here's the end of the session okay, thank you i'm the teacher thank you the teachers are also for sale at the back to run all these midas not for profit for snacks and stuff so if you'd like to get one 20 dollars each and i think there's still some time some snacks left over through few to help us out to build a table around so see you again thank you