 Welcome. This is documentation office hours. It's the 7th of April, 2023. This is in Asia time. So thanks for being here. Topics that I've got on the agenda. And if you've got additional topics, call them out. I've got, I've got Google Summer of Code. Pull requests of interest. This is one where I want then improve CI process, more FYI, reducing number of pull requests. So really the top two on my list are these two right here. Mokul, are there any topics that you wanted to bring? And chat is okay as a way to express them. For the political spot, I was thinking, like, why not add the direction of, like, the direction that the people with these are under inactivity. I'm having real difficulty understanding what you're saying. I apologize but the audio quality from your microphone seems to be pretty poor. Could you say it again or type it in chat? Okay. Great. Okay, so, so you posted a link to stale as an action. Is your question then related to considering the concept of marking pull requests marking pull requests as stale. Yes, okay, so, so let's put that as a topic automatically closing, closing stale pull requests, and we can discuss it. Good. All right. Any other topics that we need to put on the agenda for today? I'm good. Great. So FY for information sake, Google Summer of Code review and ranking period started. It started actually for April 2023. Mark has 16 proposals to review. So, I got a bunch, and I've got now about seven more days to do it. So hang in there. The next topic was automatically closing stale pull requests. So, I think this may be prompted by the question reducing the number of open pull requests. And our experience has you has almost universally been that automatically closing stale pull requests is a terribly negative experience for the pull request submitter. They, they can't make the maintainers review it any sooner. Faster right we just can't there's nothing a submitter can do closing a stale pull request, if as a maintainer I was always really great about reviewing everything might might work. But the problem is rarely the main really rarely the submitters problem it's usually that the maintainers overloaded and just can't do it. And so for me. And Daniel Beck has had the same experience and he's quite quite vocal about it saying no stale bot is the state closing stale pull requests is possibly the worst behavior he's ever seen. But if it's closing an abandoned pull request, where the, the submitter is no longer responding that I think is reasonable. But it requires maintainer engagement to confirm that the submitter is no longer responding unresponsive. I've got some rather specific examples here, make submitted. What it was. It's ready for five or five to 10 pull requests. Yeah, there's a bunch of them. Yeah. It's one huge one. Yeah. So, a year and a half ago or so. Yeah, exactly 12 to 18 months ago. And they are still they are still valid. Still useful and still relevant. But they need review from subject matter experts. And, and the reality is, until we get the review from subject matter experts, we don't want to close those and declaring them stale actually be a really bad thing because they're their only idol because they've not been not had time from a maintainer from, from a subject matter expert it's not really even a maintainer it's someone who really knows the material deeply and can say yes this is accurate or no it's not. So McCool does that answer your question. The other situation that I have seen is and I'm not sure what to do I mean it's a case by case I suppose somebody did the PR, and they got some comments. Is there like minor comments or tangential. I remember somebody that we both know very well would be oh maybe we should instead do such and such. And the original the person who originally wrote it doesn't come back, but the pull request itself is good. Somebody else could look at it and you know there's a couple of suggestions that they could approve or something and we could go ahead, it would be worth preserving that work. Right. Other times, you know, the comments are sort of, you know, rather severe would require a lot of work and maybe it's at that point. You know, but again I think it needs to be a case by case review. It depends I mean some of them, some of the people are people who came on to the project and then decided their interests were elsewhere and took off. Right. Some of them are people who are probably still around that if you pinged them and said, you know this PR is out there and it would just take a little work and we could push it would say oh yeah and go in and do it so. Right. Yep. A lot of people seem to think that when they push the PR their job is done. Well, and, and, and in part it is right. Ultimately, the, at least the thing I've seen with pull request submitted to the get plugin is that people really like it when I accept a pull request to the get plugin, because they accept that that is a full and complete assignment of ownership from them to mark weight. And, and, and it's a it's an elegant thing right if I can get somebody else to take ownership of code I created. I, that's a big win but the, the, the penalty product penalty for me as a maintainer says, I will own that because the submitter will go away, right, they will go away and they'll return to whatever but I'll keep maintaining. And because I keep maintaining, I own it and because I own it, I'm hesitant to merge it or I'm very much more careful. So, right. Now McCool had, McCool had asked a question about, well what if we marked it for six months. What if we set a time limit, right. On the pull request but the and, and there is a technique like this that's being used in the on in Jenkins core, but it's it's got a it has to have a matching matching commitment from the maintainers that I don't think we're ready to give on Jenkins documentation. It requires a matching commitment from maintainers that they will respond they will end the document the contributing guide on Jenkins core says respond or review promptly. And provide actionable feedback. So that meaning if, if I object to a change, describe what must change before to solve it. And, and right now, we don't have enough documentation maintainers to make that kind of commitment. I'm not willing to put a time limit on, in particular if we look at the Jenkins.io pull requests, we can look very specifically there and say, okay, how old is the oldest pull request and the oldest pull request is all the way from September of 2019. And is it still useful. Yes, actually it is still potentially useful. Because migration of the internationalization page is still a very real thing. And internationalization could be a is a hot topic in the Jenkins community. So, so there is still plenty to be done there. So does that address your, your question why we're, why we're hesitant to put up a process that says, after a certain period will close idle pull requests. Great, thank you. Okay. But I did say, down farther down there you have the question of whether we should review those as part of the office hours. I think that might be useful. Right, right. I mean because one thing is we tend to forget about these we tend to forget that they're out there. Right. And I think you did say we did make some progress. A couple months ago we got a bunch of enclosed right. We did. Well, and, and that's a that's a, that's a place where office hours could do it. And I'm going to in fact use today's office hours to review to because I thought, okay, this is a place these two in particular a place where us sitting together may be able to see things that I might not have seen alone. Yeah. And one thing what I would add to that is that maybe we should always leave a breadcrumb always leave a comment that we looked at this at the docs office hours on whatever date. And we decided this or we saw this and, and we could even, I don't know, you know, we could say is waiting for review by at Daniel Beck or, or something like that. King, I mean, the people are busy but people also forget that it's out there. Right. And it depends like I know like mine. Turn to take and of course because they're getting stale so that's going to make them tougher. In fact, something that might not be a bad idea would be for like Kevin because I'm not really on the project full time these days. Kevin to look at those. There may be some work that's obvious that could be done right now I'm sure they've got conflicts with things that have happened since then. He might want to go through, you know, as a writer and clean them up so they're current. But especially like some of them we could look at them and say, you know, this is three paragraphs this should take you 10 minutes to review. And we could get it out of there. I think in my case I think there's one huge one and all the others are kind of dependent on that one. Yeah, that was my sense with yours and there's this this really old one is has dependencies on some rather specific knowledge some specific skills that that need to be handled and and it's, it's not an immediately obvious thing. Oh, this is what I have to do. I'm thinking I haven't, I don't remember what was in that one it's been a long time since I looked at it, but you do have this new tool whose name I keep forgetting to make it easier to localize. Right, the correct crowd in that if, if we're going to update the docs for this that we should probably mention that. That should be included, you know that may need an update to. Right. Exactly. But that would be something else we could look at is this is this something I mean for you know, would this be something appropriate and then we could give an app Kevin to it to. Mm hmm. All right. So, anything else on the stale stale pull request topic. Okay, let's take the next topic then pull requests of interest. These are two relatively recent pull requests that I think as a group we can benefit by discussing them here so first is improvements to the layout of the blog proposed by Jan Farachek. So, Jan is one of the key drivers on the Jenkins UI improvements. He's done all sorts of really elegant things and he's proposed an improvement to the Jenkins.io page. So here's how the blog page looks in his new in his new proposed layout. So now let's compare that remember that page and let's compare that with this one, where it looks like this. So new page. Old page. Now we may say, Oh, what if what if you're running on a small screen. So let's look at it on a narrower screen. That's how it scales nicely. Oh, what about my telephone. Yep, it still scales even on my telephone. You know, comments, questions, insights offered. So Meg, Mikul, others, are there things that you see. Oh, this could be a problem or that could be a problem with this, this proposed new layout. To me, the new layout looks messy. Looks messy. Okay. And it's just there's, there's two. There's all these different blocks that could be freestanding, but they. You know, they're all different colors and different sizes and different styles and which is kind of what it is for blogs, this may be totally. It just, it looks ugly. But I see, but I'm not picked. I'm not a pictorial learner. I'm so I kind of like the words, but I also see that it doesn't grab you that these may be grab you. Interesting. Okay, so, so you find the lack of consistency that's caused by the images to be a distraction. Right. And it, and it may be that I mean they, it isn't that they all have to be the same image. In fact, part of the point would be to have different, but something on style like the, that first one which I find extremely ugly but I don't decide. Okay, hang on which one. Yeah, the dandruff and Jenkins. But, but that's got a little square background. And then the one in the middle has like no background. And then the one on the far right has the blue sort of circular thing. Which, you know, and then we go down you see and so maybe it's just that mix maybe we need to be. I don't, other people need to look at this because this is not my area but that's just, you know, a consistent that they either have a round colored background or a square colored background or no background. Interesting. Okay. Alright, so that might, that I don't know if that would help ask the guy who's the expert on these things what he would what he would think of that. I think I think it's an interesting thought of what would, should there be a better, more precise standard on the, the backgrounds for these images for instance so that if they were all using this sort of white background. Would that be better, would that be worse. I suspect that the, I think the colored backgrounds are better I think they frame them. The ones that don't have the color behind them sort of go on forever. Okay so so backgrounds like the one for this image. Right, either yeah, or where it's got the sort of gray or this one with its modeled. Whereas the Jenkins newsletter or. Okay, alright good so ask him what he thinks because he's an expert he does this, you know, all I'm thinking of is I've seen. It's been set of pages where I've, and I've been guilty of this, using all these different types and it looks like it's a test for a type font or something. You just look at it and that's sort of my it's just like a whole bunch of people who never spoke to each other all through stuff up here which is actually kind of the way it goes with blogs but I would also a tangential one. When we're using just a generic Jenkins icon. I'd like to see us use some more of our diverse ones. We've got some diverse ones. The male Jenkins the, you know, I think we've got some for other ethnicities and stuff. Okay, yeah, but that's that's just a thought for me as you know, diversity is an issue and it's a problem. We don't have some really, we can't really control what's coming out of universities etc. It would be a nice way when it's just like a generic Jenkins and that could, and it would be a fun, you know, we've got all these fun we do have the one the, the baby Jenkins I love that. Certainly we've got lots. These, these panels that you're seeing the images you're seeing here actually images that are defined with the blog post for open graph so they're you they're defined by they're defined as part of the blog post itself and thus that's why this one has exactly the look it does because it happens to have an open graph image for that thing. And that's why this one has the look it does because this picture here is its open graph image. Okay. Now, that doesn't mean that we couldn't do something different. I mean, the, I've, I've tended to use this white background thing just because it's easier for me to get it into open graph, but, but I think I could see the point of no give me a consistent background that's something other than other than transparent other than white. And, and I think that's an interesting idea. I mean, even if we could have something other problem is it depends what the graphic like the Atlassian Jerry you wouldn't want to blue background for that one. Right, right. Well, but, but this sort of this light, this gray tone that's here behind this, this, the circle there, right that that is probably safe enough to do in. No, that's interesting. I'm not sure where that image sources from interesting. Well, maybe we have a couple of different choices I mean that it's, that it's going to look weird if like two thirds of them had this gray background and then one has black and one has blue or something like that you know. Well, and, and that's a, that's a topic that we can certainly, as part of future blog posts say hey, let's use the following as a, as a, as standard background color. Now one of the challenges with setting any kind of a standard like that is, see if I can switch it here how do I switch to dark have you ever seen it in dark theme. Let's see so how do I do a dark theme I've got a dark theme in Chrome just a minute. Dark theme for Google Chrome. Okay. Oh no it's a separate add on so I can't do it immediately I've seen it before and one of my worries is that that some of these may not be well suited to the transition to dark and we've certainly got users who like dark theme. And I'm just looking to though some of the white ones. If we went to gray they've got that gray plus and there's another one down below that's got that. So we went to a gray theme we would lose that. Well, but in that case the gray would have to be that gray plus would be a on the next on a blog post that uses that if we've got a gray background the creator the image will certainly not use a gray image in the background. Right, that's easy new new posts and if we say, hey we want, we want to set a standard background color for images, all the better or maybe we say, hey let's make them transparent, so that whatever the user is using is shown through to the image. Okay, good. What does everybody else think of it I take it you liked it before I open my mouth. I do like it yeah. But that doesn't my liking it doesn't mean anything about about yes or no. Okay, because major caveats I'm not pictorially motivated and an awful lot of the graphics that get used in the computer industry have sci-fi overtones or manly man overtones that just set me on edge. Like much of what I see. Okay, so here it is. Thanks, McCool here it is in dark theme. That's a little less jarring isn't it. At least it looks like the graphic for each one is the same size etc. Right well and that's part of the hint right is, because the, the, the background of these of these slides that have a white background a pure white background or possibly transparent that makes it and and interesting. This one went completely dark. It was the gray behind it. I'm fascinated by that maybe that's something about the image really cool. So for me in dark theme I actually think I find it even even better in dark theme okay. This one is a reminder that some of them do not have an open graph image. And so I've gone in as part of this poll request and submitted open graph images, or linked to existing open graph images for many of them. Uh huh. But there will, there are still plenty that don't have an image and therefore they will show like this one does a blank space there. Oh yeah. Yes, graphic for Jenkins agents. Yes. So in. Okay, and here's one that looks especially bad in dark theme. Uh huh. Because and I think the reason there is because this image has a transparent background. Uh huh. And that's that's not especially good for it. And interestingly enough that very light plus sign on the white is actually showing up. I was thinking we would lose that but. Okay, so that was, let's see where did you see that that was on the top row the middle when I think had it first one. There it is. Okay, so it's still visible. Just fine there even in dark theme. It wouldn't necessarily be my first choice but it's visible. Mm hmm. Right. Good. Okay. All right now there is there is one thing that I saw as I was reviewing it that that was not was for me not a positive so I'm going to show you that. Let's see if the top level page. Oh, is that still in dark theme. This is yes. That doesn't do good for their noble butler does it. It does not I hadn't had never tried that. That's that's a that's glaring for sure. Yeah. And if dark theme is going to be something that each user controls themselves right which which I believe is correct it is that is user controlled as far as I understand it. So that might be a problem too. Mm hmm. Okay, so here's the recent post. So this one does not does not have it visible. One of the things that yawn has done in his in this enhancement is he has. Oh, that's awful. Okay, so this dark setting is not a workable setting just let's switch back so it was. Disable the name of that. Okay, relaunching coming back. Okay, here we go. So now back to this one there was. Oh, I wanted to show one of the complexities here and it's in the poll request itself. When we look at this poll request. I made a comment for yon's benefit on this one that what he did is he added the upcoming events into the top level page so the top level page looks like this right it's got top level logo, the jumbotron that scrolls one thing to another automatically, then it's got some features of video, and then recent blog post but what he did was he added the contents of this events page, or of the events in the events page to it. Ah, and and the challenge was the, the layout isn't nearly as pleasant. He just got this you see the in yellow the odd, odd date formatting it's very precise it's just not how human beings typically read dates. Right. And instead of being tiled like he done with the, with the blog post. This is simple single list. Right. So, so the idea on my comment there was hey, I actually personally very much like this layout I find this layout more attractive it's fun it's interesting it. It makes me think oh what am I reading here. And see I'm not a fun interesting person so that's what you always want to filter anything I say. Hearing from different people is a good thing. Right, we want to we want to know the opinions of different people, but it may very well be that maybe he needs to look at the event page why should I mean, we want the event page to be so boring if the blogs are this interesting. My thought was that, hey, if, if, if we're going to do it we could do events as a separate poll request and consider how, how should they be laid out should they be right now there are no events on the top level page and I've submitted a poll request proposing to Hacktoberfest and CD con that in order to get to I have to look ahead. Six plus months CD con is in May and Hacktoberfest is all the way into October. Okay. So, so major events don't happen often right there aren't aren't a bunch of them. Is there no dev ops world dev ops world would be a major event but no dates been announced yet. Okay. And the kinds of things are for me it's like events, maybe at most two or three we, it's rare that we have more than, more than four as events, more typically we've got zero or one. Okay. Oh, there's dev ops world. All right, great. Anything else. Nice work though I'm glad somebody's good is looking at some of this stuff. Oh yeah, yon's yon's work is very impressive. Really, really good. Oh, and also, can I, we are testing it on Firefox and cringe edge and Safari. Yeah, edge, edge and Firefox actually let's bring it up just to be sure that's a that's a good one to do. So here we'll take this one and let's go look at it while we're here here's Firefox. And here is that page in Firefox. Okay, let's scroll down for see how it looks there. Okay, so there it is on the top page. Oh, and that's interesting on this top page. It's now got upcoming events, whereas on the Chrome top page. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see upcoming events. Oops, let's go to the top page just a minute. Okay, I don't see upcoming events on the top page at all here. No. Interesting. Okay, so that's worth flagging. Let me note that to him. We detected during docs office hours. Asia that upcoming events is visible and empty on Firefox. That is not visible on Chrome with the current pull request. Fair enough to make the comment. Yeah, you're going to make us be able to. Great. All right, my mood I see that you've got a hand raised. What question. I've seen the blog blog boss card right now. And the images at the image is white. It's better not get you acts. We have a border to the blog boss guard. So I suggest to put border to them. Like, can you scroll up seeing a white background image. So like here. Yeah. So, so what you're saying is you should have a visible, a clearly visible border in this case. Yeah, please. I saw, I have sent a poll, a comment in the same pool of progress right now. And about the upcoming events, I'm asking if we can, if I can work on it, like, fixing it, but I want more details how the UI will be. Yeah, and, and I am not a viable UI designer. So telling already I'm delighted with this layout and think hey that's really cool but I have no concept of how how best to do that layout so I am not the right person to guide you on on how might it work. You could certainly ask, as you did in the poll request. Hey, are there are the things that you can help in yon's work on this and I think it's a fair question I, I don't know. I'm not sure how he prefers to work on it right now. The code that's in there. I see his changes he's made. And my proposal is hey, I would love to have the blog post without the changes to events, I think it's, it's great. But if he wants to do both the blog post and events I think the events piece needs work. Okay, that so this says this addition you are asking for is just to changing the, the date, how it's look like. No, no, it's, it's actually more than that because I think that I think that to the reader to the person doing the reading, they will find this layout, rather glaring into they'll find it inconsistent when they scroll down below upcoming events. So here, if you can imagine that there were events, the three lines of events, CD con DevOps world and if they were here, for me at least that's visually surprising to see a single wide thing with a very little bit of text, and then multi column as the next thing right below it. I was expecting events to be laid out in. In the case of Jenkins events right now on the website they lay out like this. They, they look like, let's see that won't do I've got to bring up a poll request just a minute we need a poll request that will show them. So here we go. Let's look at a prototype of a poll request here. Let's look at the preview environment. And when I go to community events. Notice that they're already columnar. Yeah, click on expand. And this is this is sort of the thing that I was assuming might occur here but with better, better design than what this is this is. It's not a long time but it's, it certainly is not as pretty as I'm sure a skilled web designer could create. Right. At least the dates are prominent that's why I was going to say if we, if this is like a list of Ford of max six. It should there should be something that at a glance I know what time of year this is it's like, oh my god there's not all these next week. Right, right. And so, so the, the fact that this gives me the visual cue that hey that's May 8. And this is October one that and and the, oh hey it's in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada, or it's a virtual event. Those, those are already pretty good hints and not using a lot of screen real estate. So, for me that was, that was, okay, I like the column their nature of this and it fits with the rough number of major events that we display. Typically, not more than four. Yeah, it's better. Okay, go ahead, speak, go ahead, you can. You have your turn. Okay, so I'm talking about like right now. It's not better to be tails as they will take a lot and the beach. They could be following a great like the poses below like it. It will be three per their line, following the column, it will be better than its tails. So you are suggesting to creating them or we are going to use the same, the same request that you sent. I'm understanding the question I apologize so I don't know how best to do the layout I just know that for me I have a preference towards this column or column or view of major events with one, two or three across the horizontal. Is that what you were asking my mode or could you explain further. Yeah, that's, that's, that's it. Yeah, because for this one, what a glance what to me is the most prominent is like the 12am. Right which to see the hacktoberfest and CD con. Well, and that may actually be a bad choice right because the day of the day and the month are probably more important to people than the than the time of day. So, so it may be that this already is an indicator. Oh that that's probably not the best way to do it we'd like to somehow highlight. May 8 is the big date, or on this one, the fact that it's in fact a two day event. And we're not giving them any hint that it's a two day event. Oh yeah. And actually the time is really misleading because what's the time Eastern US. Actually, those times are not accurate if I'm in Mumbai. Well, certainly and it, I'm pretty sure the webpage doesn't know my time because I when I defined this I said it's a 9am Pacific. Yeah, and, and it's, it should therefore be showing 8am because I'm in mountain time at the moment. Right. So, so this this clock that's being shown there is is showing it in local time and local time is, is probably good because when I fly for a physical event local time is a good choice right because when I fly there I want to know what time it is in local time, but virtual event right it's Well, and virtual event particularly this one is a virtual event that is 31 days long. Yeah, so there's some some, you know, a start time is probably irrelevant here it's rather, it's an all day event and it lasts for 31 days. Right. Yeah. And there now, because I'm boring. I like and because I like that blue and cranberry that's to me very pleasing. I like that they're all the same. But if the blogs are going to have all different ones then why don't we have special graphics for CD con and the best and DevOps world. Yeah, and there the challenge I think for me at least is I don't know, unless we do our own blog post about those things I'm not sure where we would reliably get an specific image for each. Right. Who puts those up I mean are you the one who puts major event. Yeah right or does my mood you had a question. And now I haven't raised in my head. Sorry. Oh, okay, great. All right. Okay. So, so I, I think right now the answer for me is I don't have an answer. We'll keep giving feedback and chatting back and forth with with Jan Farachek, in terms of how this, this improvement is evolving. I think it's, it's worth the further discussions and encouragement for people to take a look at it. Like this one. Was this the one that we had it seen in dark mode. Is there a way to tell Firefox dark mode. Let me see. Because I thought dark mode for Firefox. Okay, so customized dark from the themes. Okay, so. I clearly don't know how to drive Firefox nearly well enough. So we'll just, it needs more exploring to see hey how does it how to look in dark mode, etc. By the way, I noticed I think when it went by, when you had the PR up where he had like a shot in this PR, the ones that are all white transparent or whatever. I think there was a very faint border on them. And that would help I think. And there definitely is so let's make a note of that. And, and hey, let's put it here is. Yeah, let's make the border a little more dominant might solve it. Right so. Okay. Suggested and may have agreed that a little more clearly visible border. Around the images. The open graph images. Make it easier to see the two. Well, let's see make it easier to see the order and organization of the blog posts on the page. Visible border. Not sure how it would look. Look in dark mode, right because I didn't run it in dark mode to see. Yeah. And it's, and it may be I mean some of it too is that like those ones that are white are just kind of boring I mean each one of those individually is not very well done just like some things up here right. The size of Jenkins versus the penguin and, you know, right. So, maybe, maybe if these things are showing like this though the blog writers will be inspired to do something a little. Well certainly this, this picture is a lot better than anything I've ever created. Yeah, that's that's a really beautiful piece of work. This one is something I create all the time and it's, it's, it's exactly me rather flat and boring. Well you underestimate yourself but yeah and I'm a words person I mean I'm never going to create anything interesting. I mean part of it would be nice if they had a resource that they could say you know, I'm aesthetically challenged can you suggest, can you give me an image here. Right, right exactly. Good. Alright. Okay so we've, we've touched on the two blog posts that are the two poll requests that I most wanted to be sure we we looked at. Now where did my. I'm in the wrong window. There we go let's bring up the right window. This window. Where is my window. Here we are. Okay, good. All right. So we've talked through the two poll requests that were on my list. Oh no I take about we've talked through one there's another one that I want to be sure that we get to, which is image contributing guidelines so Kevin has, has made some recommendations on hey let's do images. And let's set some a little bit better set of standards for images on how we do them. Ah, so here we go. Yeah, maybe. And so let's what I wanted to do is let's look at the way he's phrased it and see if there are any things that the rest of you would say oh hey we should change this or that. Can you make this just a little bit larger. Somebody can get her get new glasses I think I'm just absolutely is that is that large enough. Yeah that's good. Okay, great. All right, so this one needs to be fixed site local URLs. Oh no no this is a contributing guide wrong comment bad comment. Sorry. Okay. All right, so. Oh this is him just changing into sentence per line. Okay sorry so we can ignore this ignore ignore ignore. And now let's find. I want to find the thing about image layout let's come on where's the images, adding images okay so new section. All right so when you add screenshots or images. Be sure that they are focused clear and useful use consistent screen dimensions. Okay, between 1024 by 768 and 1440 by 900. Focus the screenshots coverage. Okay, right so so zoom in on the piece that matters and provide alt text now this is something we don't do. And that's, that's difficult for those who are in who are visually impaired right depending on images is a bad thing if we don't do alt text. So it's a it's a good place for us to say hey let's improve our behavior here and use alt text. Yeah. Now, that's not terribly heavyweight in terms of standards for pictures. Let's do some quick scanning to see if there's more. No, this is just sentence per line. Okay, well what I would say is missing for somebody and this is probably me. I don't know how to implement any of those things and ask you doctor. Okay, so guidance on how to actually insert an image. Is that what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, you know, I knew how to, I can insert an image and if it's too small or too big on the page I can change the width and stuff but but you know I need specifics but I don't know how to specify that, you know what this specific is there. Right. Okay, so how about let's put that in Docs office hours Asia, Asia, noted that it would be good to insert a an example. Image markup into this text. Or a link to the ASCII doc documentation that tells you how to do it too. Right. Link to the ASCII doc documentation. If it's good. So that the reader, the writer can see multiple examples of image placement on the page. Or how to implement these standards we could just put it in generic agent text wrapping text wrapping and alt text and write alt text and how to implement any other image standards. Yeah, that's how about that how to implement practices described in this page. Yeah. Good. Okay, like I'm not the one where he says this center in like, I'm not sure I feel about that it's a real problem because some of those Jenkins screens are really big and really busy. No, you put a screenshot of the whole thing you can't see. It's also disorienting. I've done it where I take a little corner of it and that's there. I don't know where it is on the damn screen. Right. Exactly. The, the complexity there is how do I get enough, enough focus to, to not lose visual, but still retain context. Yeah, right. All right. Now I apologize we've hit my, my hour limit that I can do. You stayed up late tonight dad. I did. It's, it's late and I need some sleep. And I need to go back to the kitchen. Mahmoud, as far as I know, are you in Egypt? Yeah, it's 5pm right now. Okay, so it's, it's not five wait a sec, 5pm. I would have assumed. Okay, yes, it's an hour of the morning for you. Okay. Yeah. Oh, dear. Okay. Well, congratulations. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, it was great. I hope you'll come back. You were fun. Well, and you are certainly welcome in, we do docs office hours Europe that may be better suited to your waking hours, but it's up to you. We're happy to have you in either or both. Okay, I will join both as possible. And I'm currently going to join UX stage, because I'm interesting to hear about stuff about UX to make Jenkins better. Great. Look forward to seeing you there. That's wonderful. And I have just a little bit of a question about pagination. I have seen pagination and blog have been changed. And, and blog blog insights, it hasn't changed. So we can work on it to be and Jenkins components as it's served here and here. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. So you're saying that the pagination has changed because it certainly has changed here. Where is it that you say it hasn't changed. Plug insights, the plugin plugin sites. I don't know what that is, but plugins, plugins. Oh, plugins. Oh, this one. Okay. So, so I see. So what you're saying is here if we can, that this uses a different pagination component. I think that's what you're saying, right. So if I search for get, for instance, here the pagination component is a different component. Correct. Yeah. And now that's, that's one. I don't think anybody's proposed making the pagination into a web component. I'm not sure how it would work. But it's worth asking Gavin Mogan and Jan Faricic. If if that is a viable web component or not. Interesting question. I don't, I was thoroughly impressed when Gavin made this top bar into a web component. And when he made this bottom bar into a web component, those, those things were already more than I expected was possible. And so it may in fact be possible to have the have the pagination be a web component as well. Like it can be a web component. We can share the data through the component to ads to have the right pagination through all the websites. So I kind of started proposing that this issue, but I forgot where I propose it. And I proposed it and plugins, plugins rebel. So, so I will mention the other people are converting it to the component it will be the right way, or just editing it plugins websites. So, and the right, right or wrongness in web layout is, I am exactly the wrong person to ask on writer wrongness, young and Gavin, both know, much better than I would ever know what's what are good practices and what aren't good practices and doing web page design and so trust, trust them and chat with them about it me me I, I'm lucky to have opinions about how things look. And I know my opinions are invalid when it comes to how they should be done in terms of the markup. Me too. It actually be fun if they're playing with this stuff to have an announced meeting where they would be there and anybody who's interested could show up and talk about these things. The challenge there is that Gavin is more on your schedule Meg, is more on the time zone that my moods in being from the UK and so Gavin is a late night person and therefore they don't really have a time of day when they actually have overlapping overlapping personal calendar well one or the other could be you know either one of them could be. Could, could I ask, I'm asking for their username on the hub so. Yeah, so the username on GitHub is Hawkeye, H-A-L-K-E-Y. Oh yeah I know it's own the rebel about Jenkins component right. Right. Yep. Okay. And that's our the other one. And you can see that on the poll request. The blood ones. The blood one. Okay, right. Yep. Thanks so much. You bet. Any other topics before we end for today. Good meeting. That's cool. All right, thanks everybody recording should be available 24 to 48 hours depending on how well or poorly I do at getting it uploaded. Along with all those GSAC things you have to review.