 Director. Since there's only four of you guys, might as well introduce and tell us why you guys are, why you're interested in walking our control plan. I'm Thomas Weiss. I live in the city and I thought we'd taken care of this 25 years ago, but I guess not. I've been working on it for 25 years. After having had my backyard dug up to take care of this 25 years ago. I'm Jim Ikeberry. I live on Helm Street in my professional life. I work for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. And currently I do a lot of weapons restoration beforehand. I helped our engineers do a lot of waste storage facilities. And I'm curious to see what you guys have in mind because I know it's great to get treatment when you've got low flows. And it's bad when you've got high flows and you pass the treatment. I'm curious if there's any storage options that were done as a cost analysis comparison. And obviously I care about the water quality. Ken Russell, I know some of you guys. And I just care about clean water and I know how hard you all have worked over the years to address all this. And I don't like seeing people giving you a hard time. Alright, so we'll keep this very open as in depth as you guys want it. We'll kind of let you guys engage the conversation. So stop us if you guys have any questions. I have a little video for, I was not sure what the audience would know about CSOs. So we have just a general overview of how a CSO structure works. My opinion is mostly separated as we've talked about. We've gone through a series of separation projects beginning in about 92 where we started with 25 CSO structures and we're down to six. So we've made a lot of headway but we still have the last six to take care of, which is what we'll talk about right now. So basically under normal conditions all the sewage goes to the plant, no problems. But when we get high rainfall, no water either directly inflows into the pipe or infiltrates the pipe. As we saw in the video causing the flow, the amount of flow in the pipe to rise. And then we would have, does everyone understand what wet versus dry weather is in overflows? So dry weather overflow would be, if you had an overflow advantage. It would be a blockage in the pipe that would cause something like that, like a blockage. We have, we've had blockages before that are very rare. Usually we're able to open them up with our equipment before it discharges to the river. So if you're able to catch it before the sewage reaches the river then it's not considered a discharge event. It did make it to the waterway. We get a number of days. Well, we haven't experienced overflows from snowmelt alone when it's snowmelt combined with rain. That's a different question. Yeah. So you said snowmelt alone? I don't believe we've had any. It would have to be, I mean, so. My condition was really hot several days prior. But really, really hot. Like, don't experience overflows. I don't think anything that extreme that. But it does take a lower rainfall event. In the wintertime the ground's not pervious to soak up the water. So it's actually a lower trigger level in the winter, even if it's not combined with snowmelt. Because it can't get into the ground. So here's kind of an outline of our CSO separation and how this whole timeline started. So in 37 the sanitary dam was constructed, which is right out here by the old deminem beverage. The sanitary dam is just built to keep the water. The solids below water, basically this before any treatment plant was constructed. The sewage was just straight to the river. And to keep the odors down, the water level was kept up. That was sort of the first stage of treatment or dealing with sewage in the city. Is that still there? It is. It's not, it's got some damage. And it's not just upstream of the new fridge? Yes. Maybe I served that purpose. I haven't heard that, but that's very possible. So then in 62 we built the water treatment plant, which is now called the Water Resource Recovery Facility. And in that same year, all the structures built at the same time. So yeah, it's called the Interceptor Project, where they took the pipes that went straight to the river and they intercepted them with them in trunk lines to carry all the wastewater to the wastewater treatment plant. So in 62 all those structures, the 25 structures were installed. And then in 92 the first 1272 order, which is our discharge, it's our order from the state about how that was issued. And then we began in 1995 our CSO separation projects. And from 95 to 2009 there were a series of projects. So we've eliminated, well, six, 15, no, 20 of them. The original 26. So then in 2016 a new CSO rule came into effect was having to create the long-term control plan. For the ones that you've already separated, is there any treatment for that stormwater? Are they discharging into waters without treatment? They've been blocked off, so the water does not go over the outfall or to the outfall. So the separation project, it took the catch basins and the drainage structures that were on the street out of the sewer main from the collection pipe. And that pipe is not treated because there is treatment through the sumps, so there's a two foot space below the pipes for sediment to collect. But as far as really the only treatment is sediment collection. And currently there's no regulation on stormwater, treating stormwater. So now we, current day, we are developing the long-term control plan. So that's why we're here tonight. So on the screen you'll see this map here to my right. And it shows the different events that occurred in 2018. So we have six structures, as I said. The structure with the most overflow events is located at Bailey Avenue. It's called CSO number three. The second most frequent overflow structure is at Taylor Street, which is CSO one. On this chart what you'll see is it says average inflow. That's the flow into the treatment plant that is causing the overflow back. So our treatment plant on a daily basis will treat on a dry day. If it's below really five million gallons, there is not. So in the worst-case scenario you've experienced so far, how many... So the treatment plant doesn't, it's never actually exceeded the capacity of the treatment plant within the storm before Irene. So the restriction is really the river crossings. So we've got to take all the bulk of the city and cross both the North Branch and those siphon lines to get that wastewater to the point. There's just too much volume and too much velocity trying to get into it. So our treatment plant, which is off the page, can take around 10 million gallons. Right. I think the max design is 12. So let's just say 10 for ease. This line where the siphons discharge, so all the flow from the city pretty much comes down State Street through the siphon and then over Long State Street and then across the bale of the river. The majority of the flow all comes through that direction. So the line that discharges from there, we call it the trunk line. It's a 36 inch line from bale of to the treatment plant. The capacity of that line is 9.2. That's the hydraulic capacity of that line. So that's just under the plant flow, right? But the siphons, where they cross the river right there, they're only about 6.3. That's optimal. That's no sediment in the pipe. So there's some elevations that we're working on to see if there's other improvements, like adding maybe a third barrel of the siphon, maybe changing one of the barrels to a forest main. We're looking at some of those alternatives. But one of the main things that we're really highly leaning towards in considering is all this that was installed that we're talking about is of the 1960 capacity within the main. So if we line that section, you would now have 12.2 million gallons within that 36 inch trunk line to the plant. That's over the plant capacity. So check, check, those two really are not our problems. So then we look at the siphons and the two barrels of the siphon cross over at another factor specifically for CSO3. So we smoke a structure, and then it comes out a storm structure that's a cross-connect and we have a problem. So we recently did some investigation in the Beliav neighborhood. And we found three, one of them takes the one that's up here in the corner by sunset. It's a catch basin that's located on the corner of Sunset and Bailey, and it takes all the drainage from other parts. So that catch basin is directly tied to our sewer. So by eliminating that, then you take all that flow and put it in the bottom. So smoke testing is we just bought this machine through a roof train study under ways. One of the contributors to the sewer system is from a roof train. So the first year when we said we're going to be doing Clarengan App for a reconstruction project, let's go smoke that neighborhood and make sure that there's nothing else contributing within that neighborhood before we pay this. A huge reduction. So that's one big project for CSO, CSO number three. Another project is on State Street. There is a, I'm going to say a sag, but it's more like a siphon. So there was an obstruction in the way. Then they put the line. So they went right around it and they dipped it down and dipped it away. And that's what Steven will work. Yeah. It was part of the old steam distribution system for the state of Vermont. That's since been replaced and abandoned. So we just recently, within the last year, got the plans from state of Vermont. So that is a restriction point. And it's really, we're not able to effectively clean it with our equipment because it's got such abrupt bends. So we're pretty sure there's going to be a sediment built up on the bottom of that pipe. That'll be one of our proposed projects. It's near the DMV building on State Street. So those are, those are two projects, well, two series of projects that we'll have specifically relate to CSO three, 23 and one, which are really, other than 23, our most frequent overflows. We have other questions on. Yeah. Is this, like, the long-term website? We can make it available. Orca's recording it. So this whole presentation will be recorded. And we can put it on our website. The presentation can be. And when we're done with the long-term control plan, we should probably think about this for our CSO annual board and long-term control. We did a, this past year, we measured how much possible exfiltration was going through the pipe if the pipe was completely submerged within water. So they pumped it full of water and pressurized the whole pipe and then measured how much was actually leaving the pipe. Pretty significant with these old lines, the amount of water that actually seeps in through the joints and through the cracks. No, but if you were interested in that, we could record for that. I'm just thinking as you prioritize things, this is the higher priority to take out. Well, so that is a really useful tool for us because what that showed us is that when we have old clay lines that are really prone to infiltration by rehabilitating them or relining them, you will remove all that infiltration. So it's a tool that we can use to quantify how much you could fill the budget and then also what they specialize in is a confirmation that when the product is complete that you hit the values that you were. So this is just a 3D image of all of our CSOs. So CS03 is the one at Bailey Avenue. 23 is the two siphons also located at Bailey. Number one is at Taylor Street. Seven is the siphons that cross the North Branch of the Lewinsky River. Eight is at Main and Berry and discharges at the corner of the confluence of the Lewinsky and the North Branch. And nine discharges to the North Branch over by the Discranshery Bridge. All right, so here are some of the alternatives that as part of our long-term control plan that we are looking into, maybe they're already begun, or maybe it's not feasible and we are looking at some other methods. So the first one is installing flow meters at each of the CSO outfalls. We're currently, we have codes from a vendor to install those. Yeah, I'm really hoping to get some state funding. There's state funding assistance for flow monitoring equipment. So right now we don't have our monitoring for an overflow event. There's what's called a tell-tale block. It's a block of wood tied to a manhole string set on top of the overflow weir. And when that water level comes up, the block of wood goes to the other side of the weir and we check it and know we have an overflow. So it's an old method. It's how the city's been monitoring our overflow events since the start. But, you know, it's time to come into modern technology. The problem with the blocks is we have no way to quantify the volume that's been discharged, which would be a useful tool for us in sort of prioritizing some of these improvement projects is by knowing how close are we in an individual structure, how much volume do we need to get out of there to be able to eliminate that CSO. So that is something we hope to do potentially a lot of this time depending on the state funding, which we think we have a good shot at getting. It's a 50% subsidy through the clean water fund. Quick funding question. Is that the only funding avenue you guys have pursued? Have you talked to USDA World Development about any of their grants or loans that they offer? We're using them partially. We're using RD for the treatment plan, pursuing it from them. We haven't specifically talked to them in regards to CSO work, but we may pursue additional... Well, one of the big projects that hasn't been done as far as separation is East State Street, and we expect that we'll try to get long partial grant funding on design for that CSO project on East State Street. I will ask them to do that, but that's a good suggestion. I don't know how, if they get involved with historically been primary... They do a lot of infrastructure projects, you know, further. So another alternative is to reduce flows through separation. That has been one of our main approaches since the CSO elimination... That contribute to the CSO. There's a couple streets combined on the other side of the river, but they don't have to go through the site then. So the next is adding storage tanks to hold back flows. So this is something that we... There's the 92 report and the 2007 report that we have. They talk about quantifying how much volume is big. Right now, it's like 5 billion gallons is what I would say. I mean, I don't know based on data for like a five-year interval of storm. We haven't... I haven't seen 2.5, 2.8 inches occur in five years yet, so I don't really know what that translates to for flow into 2.2 inches in 24 hours is around 7 million to 8 million gallons. So it's a lot. But by lining... The lines we're talking about, that 36-inch line, you go from 9.2 to 12 million gallons. The siphon lines, you go from 6 to almost 10 million gallons. So we have... By lining in and of itself, we make our asset new again, we repair it, we rehab it, and the hydraulic capacity changes. It's much greater. That seems like a much more logical option, especially when you think about you could then get some of that stuff that's going to get the treatment in the plant, as the plant has the capacity. When you're talking about storage of that many million gallons, you're talking about acre or acres of space that probably doesn't exist in more peculiar or some kind of shockingly tall structure with ridiculous pumps that it sounds like that might be the most cost-effective ways to do that lining and to work with your existing system and it's also not creating the quality that you're glad there's a slick option like that. Then once we've lined all of our stuff and if we then still presented with a property, the volume that you have to then treat is going to be a lot less. So it then makes the treatment option much more feasible when you're not. So regardless, we have to improve our infrastructure. The 30 of these lines that we're talking about, something will need to be done to facilitate these lines. So whether that's using a liner, using a spray, a pipe bursting, or an open-cut, I mean, those last two, we really do not slip-line or like a geo-spray. So there's companies that come in and actually spray the inside with zero to one inches and reform your mic. Or a curative place pop-tree lining. So it's a site benefit over you. The beauty is you get both the infiltration and... I understand that, but... You have a primary objective of one over the other. So there's two answers to that. The main trunk line and the siphon lines, I would say it's reduced friction to increase capacity on some of our high groundwater areas. It's really to reduce infiltration. We have a little bit of a sequence later, but no, we have not laid out the whole schedule and when we're going to... So you're talking about storage... These are things that are required to look at through our permit? Yeah, and optimize the feed-race of weirs. But with flow metering... It's a mandate. It sets a scale like this. When you're talking about having to hold that many gallons, I mean, compared to the pool out there, how much bigger than the wrecked part of the pool? It's hard because it's flow rate-based. It's not just... It's in and out. It's not just stagnant. What's your water system? That's very... You can see the diameter of it. Another... This might be off the wall, but people are always talking about marshlands and swamps. If we could have... If somebody just could magically say you can have so many acres of swamps on where the system in theory could help, like the stormwater or... Well, you'd have to be treated. So there is an alternative. Let overflows happen and treat them when they happen. But it would require screening to take out the solids and as well as a disinfectant to either be UV. So that is an alternative that we would consider. I would add, too, that you... I need to have storage at the front end of those systems. And so then you run into your storage problem again. Because if you're going to get proper treatment, you need to have a certain amount of time through that system. And so if you had 10 million gallons coming through in a number of hours, they're just going to blow right through whatever it is that you were going to try to treat. And they oftentimes are additional to whatever storage and treatment you have. When we size them on farm systems, that's an additional cost because you still need to have some kind of a storage structure for the manure and the siloes and each egg and whatnot. And then you're doing treatment afterwards if it oftentimes adds cost and takes up a surprising amount of space. One last thought I wanted to add in mind that I know that you've had that one era of water pipes that turned out to be literally a bust for us. I would say that when you're looking at your options and long-term investment lining these pipes, I hope you all would consider which type of liner gets you the best long-term insurance and gets frost-heaving, causing long-term maintenance problems. A spray isn't as structurally sound for some reason as HDPE or whatever you just can just consider that. But maybe a little bit more upfront cost might get us an extra 20 or 30 years. Yeah, and that's something that we would look at. This option has 25 years, but it's going to cost a million. This one has 50 years of extra life, but it costs us 6 million. But then expanding the treatment plant, we are already doing a project at the treatment plant, and as we said, it doesn't really need to be expanded because we have more than enough flow to treat what comes in already. So as we briefly discussed, at screening and disinfection for each of the overflows, we haven't investigated this option specifically in too much in detail. Obviously, we would like to eliminate before we just accept. Okay, well, you have a cut. We know they have a cut. We just are going to keep putting a bandaid over it and the root problem has cost. No, it's okay. It takes less strain to make an overflow in the winter. We get more heavy rains in the spring, so we have found them in the springtime. It's sort of a combination of snow and melt and overflow. So we used to only monitor in the spring. The state didn't really consider the winter months. Yeah, it's very good. So then lastly is incorporate green infrastructure to reduce storm water flows into the CSS to the greatest extent feasible. As we said, we don't really have a lot of combined systems left. Our strategy has been to move and separate, to care about storm water quality, and we've done more swales and stuff like that. Looking out in the future where there's a likelihood of... Is there a vision of whatever it is that we do on this front that it doesn't preclude us from having some good options in storm water treatment as far as maybe not putting a structure in the space I'm just hoping that it would be a complementary link. If you're like, oh, we could put a swirl separator here and help with getting stuff out of that storm water before it enters in, and it's not going to somehow get in the way of... Yeah, so next year on Clarendon, we're looking at... So right now we just did a whole bunch of warnings and we're analyzing the groundwater table. What we're finding is that the water in that area is really high. So that means that the sewer main is most likely fairly submerged most of the time. So one of the things that we need to do, so it's going to be a new pipe, it's not going to have infiltration. But there's still going to be all that groundwater that's going to find some place to go. So by doing stuff like underdrain, wrapped in filter fabric, and sand bedded, we will end up treating some of the storm water. So we don't know exactly what we want to do on Clarendon yet, the subsurface water. And if we can figure out a good way to also capture road gone off and treat that as well. The calculations are you guys using fairly recent data. It gets at the fact that we've had about eight inches more in precipitation getting more of those downbursts in the summer. So our precipitation calculations come from... So in our rule it has mobiliar basically our target rates. I just hope you're using more modern data sets and not like a 1950 to 70 years. This is an extreme precipitation, so I've been here for over five years and as I just said, I haven't seen a five hour storm produced 2.8 inches. That's what the data set says, but... We talked, most of our streets were already separated. These state streets, not. The hindsight I wish we just upgraded all of our line sizes and treated it all I mean, our wastewater plan is very efficient. Yeah. Why would... An alternative of what if we fixed every pipe and reconnected every storm water connection. Would we still have enough capacity to do that and what would that cost? I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but you do have a... I didn't know that that thing... We have not looked at that. This plan, so we haven't done the long-term control plan. This meeting is really to sort of talk about what we're looking at and get people's input and what we should be looking at. I don't know that most of your taxpayers could afford that, but certainly we could include that as part of our analysis. We'll get some feasibility numbers in there. It'd be an interesting alternative because no matter what you're doing, you're spending millions of dollars over long periods of time and if you've already got things that are receiving that water and you could reconnect them to a system with upgraded pipes, could actually handle the whole blowing and from a long-term maintenance standpoint, you're treating everything in one facility versus having trucks going to each individual separate or including them out and maybe there's a way to... I think that'd be one complicated, complex cost analysis, but it'd be interesting if it could be figured out as C is an alternative. I see that as a trickle-back to that. Oh, I agree. Second phase can be... That makes total sense. When we have capacity, we can put CSO as a too big an artifact. This plan is really specific to CSO elimination, but that is a good point. We're just going to discuss some of the alternatives in a little bit more detail here. Alternative of the sewer siphons, one of them is to line up as we're talking. They're old. They're from 1962. They're made of cast iron, so they have really rough in terms of the friction. So we really need to line these and upgrade our siphons. In addition, our siphons have weirs. So two years ago, we did a study that looked at all the alternatives of these weirs and basically said, can we raise the elevation of the weir at all which will help with the amount of frequency that you will have tomorrow? So we're using the collection system. We looked at house services and how far can we raise up those weirs without floating basements. Adjusted those up. So instead of building big storage chains, we're using the existing pipe network to sort of store this volume. So we have, I mean, from way over here on the Bain Street Roundabout all the way to the waves of our plant, we're only talking six feet in elevation pitch over two miles of pipe. So it's very, very, very, very flat. So I mean, that's what we talk about storage and talk about volumes. What's happening is when we get really high rain amounts, the volume in the pipe moves up. So by adjusting the weir where it goes to the river, you allow for more. So we looked at the siphons and all the overflow structures and we raised most of them. I believe they're all risk-based. So one of the other alternatives is to reduce flow which is either through separation, well mostly through separation or through green infrastructure if we had more. Another thing is one of the things that we're using to determine whether there are stormwater connections in our sewer main. That's very useful so far where we've used it. I look forward to using it in other locations that it may bring something to light that we didn't really know yet. Raising the weirs, we already discussed some of the ongoing alternatives. So as we talked about, we're talking about capacity and the elevations between them. So our system is very vulnerable to sediment so we need to make sure that it's clean, and clean all the time because we need every inch. So keep our cleaning and maintenance primarily utilizing. It's a company that you've found a very good product. It's really for cross country lines primarily where you get, or this is a kind of poultry fields and the stem of the root. So in 2007, there was a root ball mass pulled out of the big trunk line that averaged about 300. When we talked about cleaning and maintenance it's very, very important for our system. We do have a plan so every five years the entire system is scheduled to get cleaned and then we start to do it again. However, looking at some of the CSO data from this past day in the report and looking at things a little bit more in depth and because we have hotspots. There are some lines that we probably need to clean almost every year until they get replaced. So we did, in 2013 we did the first really sewer inventory where we took every structure in the city, checked for infiltration, checked for inflow, grease, roots, inverts. And then since that time we've really done another study to actually inspect them but when we do our paving program we actually go in through all the sewer structures and evaluate the conditions of the pipes on that street. So you don't have like a for not for continuous. So we did it, we did the initial and we got that base inventory. So we know based on some of the overflow data. So you see Bayley Ave, right? 13 overflows. Why is that one more frequent than anywhere else? That you could take that data and extrapolate. Well, so we had, so we had this right now. We had, okay, Bayley Ave, we think that there's someone going on there. We went to go do the project. We popped a whole bunch of monitoring wells in different locations. Right now, right now. So we're going to be doing cleaning out this upcoming year. And we just had, we just did a whole bunch of things to take soils, to test for much different stuff. But then we converted those more holes into monitoring wells to gauge what the water subsurface. Yeah, so, I mean, our guys, our crews are in the structures a lot more than we are. And they will frequently come to us and say, something's not right at this structure. We do have so much clean water that we don't really know why it's always flowing. So then, It's a water main bridge. Yeah, it totally comes from a water mix. I mean, then we'll actually take that information and kind of go back and investigate. Yeah, work upstream. Okay, it's still flowing, still flowing, still flowing. And then you, you know, kind of pinpoint the area. So that's kind of done on me. What we found is, because the pipes are primarily plate-tied. So the structures themselves are like, they're usually, I haven't really seen any. So to look for direct connections is where we really rely on them. So that leads to a rather question, like the roof trains. There has been a study done and suspected or confirmed. They're going to propose some ordinance language as part of the contract for potential incentives. So it's included. Yeah, there's a standpipe. And the question is whether there's like a marshy area. And what we believe is that the marshy area is directly and flowing, overflowing into the standpipe. But when you pop, man on cover is going to pop main street. One after another, it's clean, almost solid egg. Which is why that one little mini project that we found this year, and we're going to do, they're small, they're going to treat the project, but it has a huge value to the CSO, the long-term control plan. So we've already talked about the metering, the roof trade, the smoke investigations. So as we've been discussing, we're really proposing lining or upgrading and rehabilitating the majority of our lines from the wastewater plant all the way through the site. And so if they connect to a siphon or an overflow line, we're recommending lining it or resizing it. They're old, they need to be done anyways. If we don't, the cost is going to be pretty high. So we might as well. Here's just a graphical depiction of the sag that we have on stage tree. Even though it's more vertically down, over, and vertically up. Some of the other alternatives as discussed, storage volumes, weird adjustments, additional pumps, specifically at the siphon structures or the overflow structures, possible additional barrels at siphons or comparing one of the barrels to a force main with controlled flow. Green storm water to attenuate flows and treatment. Are there any other questions? So if you have a 36-inch main or something going into a smaller siphon, what we're seeing, drastically oversized or undersized, they really need to be improved back to their... They're designed for 6 million gallons or overflowing somewhere around 5 million. That's telling me that the siphon capacities are only running at about 85% optimum capacity. So I can improve it, but they have to answer a question if you have an outlet that's smaller, and yes, it would return back up a lot. Until it gets to that weird height which goes to the overflow. It's all elevation-based. There's 6 feet from traffic circle. So that's just basically flat, right? 0.0006%. And it's concrete-like, so it's rough. The percentage is very pretty low. We just started getting into... Do we have a push camera? There's a tricky... There's a range that's a little tricky. It's just it doesn't... We don't have a great... So above 12 inches to whatever size, it doesn't matter if we're good. It's a small camera, bigger pipe, a little harder to light up. So that'll be part, obviously, that's really important. One of the things is we want to actually block off on our siphon barrels and put the camera down the siphon barrel and see what it looks like on the inside. We have no idea. So in 1962, we bought the Vactor in the 2000s. Before then, I'm not really sure that they were cleaned all that often, or ever. Before the city on the Vactor, it was a big project. You'll see tuberculation on the inside of that pipe. You'll see a whole bunch of stuff coating the inside of it. But to come back to the camera inspection, so it's very time-consuming. Due to limited resources, which is why we're really trying to work with crews to make sure that when we do a painting in the street, we're going to remind the street and put a lot of money in the street. We want to make sure that we know what's going on. Recently, we've really developed some really good connections with our crews about making sure that they're getting ahead of us the investigation work, which is why we have this summer and more stress-free. Yeah, it's also a really good storm, the state of the study. And very quickly, if you had just done camera alone, you probably would not have found some of the ones that we found recently. You wouldn't have found a series of really successful smoke projects. And why don't... What's the price for one of these? I want to thank you guys for all the work and planning you put into this as a citizen and taxpayer and somebody who knows enough about engineering to be dangerous. You guys have done great thought and I really like the prioritization. I think it makes sense for your plan. So I just want to thank you. As you work to finish separating these remaining CSOs, I guess I would hope that sometime in the next two to three years, you are able to run that probably crazy cost calculation to think about the magic wand situation where we know eventually we're going to have to treat our urban storm water and you're already thinking about separating your clean from your dirty water and that's all great stuff. But if we could, in some scenario, reconnect our storm water system where there currently is no treatment and we know there are balloons coming into our water courses, what would that cost and would we have capacity after we've lined all of our sewer pipes and all of the great upgrades that obviously need to happen first? Maybe it's even 10 years from now. It would be interesting to see if it didn't take $100,000 to ask the question. Would there be a way to have full treatment so that in some future Montpelier all the sewer is going to the treatment plant, all the clean roof water runoff is going to some place where it can just be a whole likely polluted storm water runoff as a path into the treatment plant as well. So I'll give you kind of a I think we can run I mean I'm thinking about how our system works and you know the hills at the base of the streets connecting them back and yeah maybe it's feasible. The one thing I do want to just think to consider is that we're talking about a 5-year design storm with a 2.8 inches of rainfall in a 24-hour and that would produce for us to be in compliance with the CSO rule we could see up to a 50-year design storm which would really create capacity if you did end up treating storm water I think it would have to be somewhat of a strategic approach that in an iterative process that you make sure that you weren't over allocating capacity because the last thing you want to do is GCSO compliance and then put all this stuff into it and then your direction. So that could be quite true. My hope would be that any future storm water treatment is thought of in a way that could be as systematic as possible so that the we as taxpayers don't get nickel and dimed because it just seemed like that just seemed like that if you come into one spot you can manage that and handle your long-term costs but if you've got all these individual little treatment plants that have to capture all the storm water that just seemed like the cost and the maintenance and all that could that's why we don't want to necessarily use the first approach of just treatment at every structure if we did that in 1992 we'd have 26 little treatment plants we're probably going to take it and maybe the other side of the north branch and we'll take that part of State Street and bring it to the plant but like Zach said, if you're looking at the rainfall that's how much water we generated it would exceed the capacity of the particular plant I'm thinking like if you look at a 25 year design storm a year like 30 million down I mean three plants to show you Our scale too small and within the city of Minnesota people really worked their soil I mean more spongible so they'd absorb more water Well no, I think there are things like rain gardens you could do at your house and collect your roof runoff and run against a vegetation that really probably the challenge most of the year faces is a lot of clay soils here but with the right plant things I think every bit helps I could add to that that if a landowner is interested I'd recommend they contact the Wienewski Natural Resources Conservation District they could come out and do a compaction test I know when we've looked at soils from a USDA standpoint if somebody is really heavily manicuring their lawn it can be just as compact and sometimes is some really urban impacted areas and shockingly impervious because of how they've managed it and because they're keeping the grass at two inches and not allowing roots to get infiltration down there so there are ways with the local conservation districts that you could there's a lot of them are interested in storm water related projects including the Wienewski District in particular which covers this area in addition a lot of work they do in South Burlington so they could give technical and financially even small financial when they're talking about $2 billion for the Lake Champlain impaired waterways how much of that overlasts what you're talking about or what other things what we'll be looking at here locally so I hope they can fund for to fund some of these alternatives we're talking about the long-term control plan so the Lake Champlain Basin is an impaired waterway under the EPA the state's going to have to figure out how to it's going to be a $2 billion thing across the state so what is that going to look like here? currently my employer falls under the municipal general roads permit RGP, municipal general permit so we're covered under that program so there's communities like Burlington that are MS4 communities which actually have to treat the amount of stormwater based on impervious area so we fall into kind of a unique category where it's on size with a lot of more rural community callas or dirt roads so right now we don't think that we're going to have a huge compliance problem we're actually very very lucky with the level of compliance that we already have under the basin inventory and this is all ways that they are trying to tackle so there's one way is the long-term control plan which we approved through the state to pick out these CSOs for water quality so every community we are MSRG municipal roads permit all the costs that's stuff that we have to work on yeah so those those were about $10,000 per unit plus a little bit of an annual we already have SCADA so we would we would tie it in but that's the only monitoring cost that doesn't include having LCS actually hooked up and set up our SCADA to the monitor it's not required the annual cost is fairly low the $2,000 for all of them per year so that's going in okay