 to admit everyone. Let's go. I'm so glad. I'm so glad it's been better. I know. Recording the progress. Yes, and here we go. You're being recorded. Yeah. It's time for Watch Me Work, where you get to talk with me about your work. And if you don't know how it goes, that's how it goes. We've been doing this show for like 14, 15 years. We started out in the lobby of the Public Theater. We then went with the help of HowlRound and the Public Theater. We started doing it kind of using technology. And then when COVID and lockdown hit, we went on Zoom. And that's where we are. And that's where we hope to stay. We are now being, what do you call it, embraced by the New Work Development Department. And Amritha, and is the head of the New Work Development Department. Do you want to say anything to everybody? Just say hello, hi, everyone. It's really nice to meet you. And so thrilled to join Watch Me Work. Yeah. And Zoe is the, yeah. Yes, likewise. Hi, everyone. My name is Zoe. She, her. And I'm very happy to be here and welcome, everyone. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to do what we always do. We're going to work for 20 minutes. And then we are going to, I'm going to invite you to ask me questions about your work and your creative process while we don't actually have the time or the bandwidth to have you read from your work and all that kind of stuff. We do have plenty of time to talk about your process, how you're doing with your work, what you're up to, you know, any specific process questions or check-ins if you like. And if you have a question or something that you need to share, Zoe, could you tell us how to get in touch, please? Yes. When our 20 minutes is over and you have a question you would like to ask, please use the raise your hand function and the zoom on the bottom of the screen. And I will ask you to please unmute yourself and you will ask your question. And once you're done asking your question, please mute back. And that way we can have a nice queue of questions and everyone should get their time. Thank you. Thank you. I love that. Yeah. It's Monday. That's why we're laughing. Yeah. So it's Monday. So let's get going. Here we go. That was 20 minutes. That was 20 minutes. So if anybody, now we're for the rest of the hour, which is about 40 minutes, I will take your questions if you have any, or I can just look at my highlighters. Please use the raise your hand function, if you may, and we can call on you to unmute. Thank you. Yes, Jonathan, please unmute and ask your question. Thank you. Hey, Jonathan. Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. Oh, I'm well. Thanks for joining. Thank you. First, I'm going to try to lower my hand. Oh, I did that. Okay. That's all. I was just seeing if I could raise and lower my hand. That's not, no, I had a question about revisions and kind of what your thoughts are on that process. Like when you get to a first draft that you're, let's say, reasonably, reasonably happy with, right? Is it the kind of thing where you like step away from it and come back to it? Or do you give it to a trusted friend or partner? Or do you try to get it in front of some actors? What does that process look like? I've tried different approaches over the years, and I don't think I've landed in a really reliable place. So I'm curious as to what you and other folks do in terms of- Go ahead. First draft, you've got a draft that you're reasonably happy with. Congratulations, by the way. That's no small thing because while you were writing your draft, as I said today in class, the rest of us are just hanging out doing our thing. So you were doing the work and we celebrate you for that. And yeah, no, it's always good to remember to like, you know, give yourself a pat on the back sometimes. So now, yeah, now what? It seems like you tried a cup of some things. You've tried giving it to actors, yes. You've tried giving it to a trusted partner or friend and getting their feedback, right? Yes. Okay, good. So just, I mean, you don't have to name names or anything, but which one of those was less pleasing or successful or helpful? I think the, let me answer the question I want to be asked. I think the most helpful, I think the most helpful was getting it in front of actors, but that takes the most work and the most logistics and the most arranging. And so, and it may just be in the past, you know, luck. And so I guess the least, maybe I'm answering my own question, and this is your strategy, the least helpful I think is just kind of going through it myself again, because what I end up doing when it's just me is word choice, you know, I'll shorten that up. I'll change that word, but I don't necessarily structurally look at things or I don't necessarily, you know, get into the characters too, because I've gotten to this point on my own. And if anything's going to make me look at it in a radical way, it's got to be somebody or something else kind of inhabiting it or giving, I can't do it myself, I guess is my point. Right, right, right, right, right. Well, what's great, Jonathan, is you're onto your, I mean, you understand the complexities involved in each stage. So I would encourage you, they're all good, as you know, they're all good. So I would say step one is still reading it yourself. Have you, do you read it aloud when you read it? Sometimes, yeah, sometimes. You can do it in small increments, like if it's a, say if it's a 150 page play, consisting of 15 scenes, let's just say, you can, we can read a scene a day out loud, you want to see how it sounds out loud. That's something, I mean, this is what I'm saying, this is building up to inviting actors in. But I think to make best use of those actors, and you said logistics are a concern, you know, everybody's schedules, you're going to want to do as much work as you can before you invite the actors in, right? So what you're going to have to do, and I think you're probably good at this because you have written a play, you're good at pretending you're somebody else, right? And that's the skill, and you've touched on it. You said, you know, I'm not, you know, I need somebody else to read, that's the skill that we need to employ when we read our draft. So when I read my draft, I'm not SLP, I'm whatever, PLS or whatever, you know what I mean? I'm somebody else. I'm reading it as if somebody else wrote it. Okay. And so I'm not, I'm not looking at like, yeah, I think I'll change that comma, you know, that sort of close work. I'm sort of going, okay, what's this scene about? You know, what's, you know, as if someone else wrote it. And I read it out loud with a lot of gusto and a lot of enthusiasm, but as if somebody else wrote it. How much time goes by before you go back to it? Like a week? Yeah, it could be a week. Okay. Yeah, that's good. I mean, I think it's nice to put it aside like a pie, as if it's or pie, you know, like pie, like a pumpkin pie. Yeah, yeah. You let it cool down, you know what I mean? So I would say put it aside for a week, then read it out loud, a scene a day or a scene and then take a break and then another scene and then take it and just read, you know, read it as if someone else wrote it. You can also have your, you can do two for one, have your trusted friend or partner listening and read it out. This is what I do a lot. My poor husband, he's heard my new play like he said, I've heard it a hundred times, you know, poor thing, but you know, he's up for it and I read it out loud to him. And sometimes I give him a screen shot to follow along, you know, and I read it out loud. And only after I've read it a few times and worked on it, do I then invite actors in? Because, like you said, of the logistics. Yeah, you know, I'm really have something to add for that because you do a lot of new play development. Let's see. What do you think? I think what you said, SLP is great. And, and hi, hi, Jonathan. Nice to meet you. I love the process of what it means to read out loud or read to others. I will even say also as someone who reads many scripts on the daily, I love reading out loud to get to know a play and to be able to really feel character and to feel journey of story. So I think that's a great exploration because I feel like one's voice out loud can help you connect to how a play will feel and be heard. And will, I think allow a great foundation for the work before actors are fully invited in to the room. So I find that to be an incredibly helpful practice in rewriting. And admittedly, as someone who, you know, gets to know a play often an incredibly helpful practice when I am trying to learn about the rhythm and the character and the tone and style and the energy of a play. Yeah. Thank you. That's super helpful. Yeah. And it's also, it's very empowering. And it's very like you're owning your work. You know, there you are. You're able to read it out loud. Sure. You're not an actor or perhaps you are, but you're, you know, maybe you're not hoping to be cast in the role, but you can stand there and deliver it. There's a great confidence that happens that like I can stand up in front of my spouse or my partner and read this play, you know, there's there's a wonderful feeling that happens that you start to feel good about the work that you've done. And that helps, you know, as you go forward. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Something else I'll also share in case, in case this is helpful, Jonathan, is, and this happened pretty often when I was at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, because we were, you know, we were in Ashland, Oregon, and we had a company that was, you know, a very tightly knit company. When we didn't have the logistics to be able to plan out a reading right away, but we had someone within the company who wanted to write and hear it, you know, they would gather some friends and invite them over for dinner and say, you know, hey, I'll, I'll provide a meal if you if you sit around a table and read the play out loud and give me some feedback. And, and I actually find, you know, I always love the formality of readings that can support people getting paid and a company supporting it. But there's also something really nice about sometimes just like taking that out of it and being like, who can I invite over who I trust and love and I can, you know, I can feed them and then we can all engage in the hearing of my play. Yeah, that's great. I think that, you know, because what I've found sometimes is that depending on who the actors are, like, the actors can, the actors can, because the actors are so talented, and because there's they do this all the time, they can with their skill, like gloss over areas that actually need work, but someone who's just a regular person just reading it, not bringing any of those tricks of the trade, if there's a dead spot, like, they won't be able to cover it with their voice or with their intonation or anything like that. It'll just feel like the dead spot that it is. But please, Jonathan, listen to those tests. Oh, yeah. No, no, that's right. That's what I'm saying. Like, that's why it's better to have just your friends rather than actors, because the friends won't have those covering skills. I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true. Yeah. Because a great actor, man. They can. Yeah, yeah. No, it sounds like you're going to have a wonderful time. You can also, in the week that you spend reading it to your partner, you can also be calling up friends, like Amritha suggested, and organizing that too. You don't have to do one, finish it, then do the next thing. You can organize several things simultaneously. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, sure. Again, congratulations on finishing a draft. Yeah. Yes, Crystal. Thanks, Crystal. How you doing? How's your shoulder? I'm broken in all sorts of senses. It's healing. It's healing. But other things are in pain and in need of attention. But I am healthy in all sorts of other ways. So I feel good. Thanks. I wanted to update you on the play that I started working on that that really isn't really working. I reached out to my friend, my 80-something-year-old friend, and asked him if he would want to collaborate or something. And he was like, but I don't see what you see. I'm me, but you see something that I'm just being me, so I don't know how I could help. And so that was one thing. But he also said another thing that I realized, I'm like, oh, this is why I feel like what I'm writing isn't acceptable in my sight. Because one of the things he was asking me about was he was saying, let's sit and talk about what your intention is with the story. What's the story? And I kind of don't have a story. I just have a character and I have a theme. And the theme is the purpose of life versus ageism. So we have this purpose in life. We all believe we have this thing we're supposed to do with our lives, but who says when that is? At what age that is? Like sometimes we are called to do things in our 60s or 70s, but in our society sometimes that's either ignored or frowned upon. And so that's why I wanted to work with this character, who is literally saving lives, but he's just much older. So I'm having trouble now navigating like a plot. I have a theme. I have an actor. I mean, a character. And I have another character, like a couple of other characters. But I feel like I've lost my way because I haven't set out the map of where I want to go. I don't really know where I want to go. I just know what the internal conflicts are. Right. No, no, no. So it's geometry. Maybe I said this. I know I said this here before, maybe. But maybe not this year. Oh, I heard this weird sound. It's geometry. It's time for a geometry lesson. In geometry, there's a truth. Maybe it's called two points make a line. Right? Two points make a line. Okay. So it also works in, you know, playwriting. Don't ask me why. Where is your character now? Right? I mean, not where is he physically, but where does he begin? And where would you like him to end up? And that understanding of where he wants to go can create a line of dialogue or more than one line of dialogue. Hopefully enough lines of dialogue to create a whole play. Right? So as in geometry, so in playwriting. So think of what your character wants. What does he want? Theme is tricky in my experience. Theme is like a, you know, it's like a thing that scholars will write about when they write about your brilliant work, you know, just personal and this is my own experience. I've never written from theme, not yet. I don't understand really what theme is. I mean, I kind of do. But between you and me and everybody else listening, not really. Themes like people in the newspaper or the New Yorker talk about, I don't know what that is. But I know what story is. And I know what a character wants. What is your person, your character? What do they want? What are they longing for? Right? Yeah. What are they, why are they standing around talking? You know, even the person on the street, you know, the homeless person, you know, they're standing there on the street like talking. They want something, you know what I'm saying? Think of every character. Think of Hamlet, you know, they want something. All these characters in these plays that we love, in novels and movies, they want something. Okay. I don't know the theme of Hamlet, but I know what he wants. And longing, desire is the fuel for plot. Plot, if you just think of it as plot, think of it. It's where dead people lie. You don't want your characters to be dead, and you don't want them to be the liars. So think of what they want, what they long for, what they're reaching for. You know what I mean? Okay. Yeah. Think about that and energize your character toward his goal. Okay. For example, is he trying to prove to us that he is still someone who can do stuff? For example. Right. So then that manifest, what is he doing to prove to me someone who looks at him and says, ah, he's 80. Broom him off the stage, you know? No, no, no, he's got something to tell me, right? Right. Okay. Yeah. Is that helpful? Very, very, very. And if you, when you get, you know, you, you, in this situation, not in all situations, but oftentimes, and it's okay because you're hurt. So don't do this. Which, which shoulder is it? This one. The right one. Yeah. This one. Do it with that hand. Don't do it with that arm. But reach, reach. Feel your body longing for something. You see what I mean? Don't crawl up into your head and start talking to me about theme. Theme, shmeme, whatever. Right. Okay. Save theme for later when you're, you know, I'm, I'm not sure who needs to hear that theme. The press release, I suppose. Yeah. But don't write it for you. The press department will write it for you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Welcome. Always. You're such a joy, Crystal. Oh, thank you. Are they, did they apply to that college in California? Um, not yet. She, she, she missed the early decisions deadline. So she's going in for regular decisions, but we're checking out Howard and some other colleges too. So Howard. Yeah. Yeah, at least just like, you know, a few hours as opposed to like across the country, but she, she has to go on her journey. So we have to, you know, let her fly through that list. Yeah. Thank you. I'll have a question. I hope you understand it. I'm just curious. Who do you have? Check your things when you first write something? Who do you have? Check it to see if it's spelled right. If it's, and yeah, I know about getting a check with the programs in the computer, but to get it checked to see if it's spelled right, the punctuation's right, and if it makes sense. More so than is this a good story that will sell? Right. I write a lot of different things and then I have to always remind myself, even with an email, to go back and make sure I left that L in there, you know, that I left that S in there. And I do that, but I've been thinking lately that it would be good to have somebody else throw over the things like them advertising a program before I send it off. So I'm just kind of curious. Yeah, that's a great question. Who do we have? Who do I have to check my work? Again, like with John's question, I'm the first, I do the first check, and the second and the third check. I mean, and usually what I do is I learn this and like in grade school, I read it backwards. Oh, that helps because I'm not then seduced by whatever it is. And I'm saying, oh, thank you very much for sending me your blah, blah, blah, you know, if it's an email, I'm reading it backwards very slowly. That helps catch any mistakes. So let me just interrupt you. So you're saying that you might read the last paragraph first? And backwards starting from the bottom of the page. Okay, backwards. Okay, so I'm not seduced by the sense of it. Okay. I'm more checking the spelling, the punctuation, anything like that. So I do that two or three times. And then I might read it forward again, just to make sure that I'm saying something. And then I would hand it off again to my my husband, who is the hardest working man who's not in in our show business anyway. I give it to him, let him read it. And then you know, I then I just say, well, I've invented so many words and punctuations at this point that I hope people let me some slack. Spelling isn't what it, you know, spelling is very important. It's not as it was years ago, the judge, the way to measure intelligence. So hopefully people cut you some slack and they're all those wonderful programs that are going to let you see where you made a little mistake. So it's helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Great question. Yes, Sasha is immune. Hey, Sasha. And I'm just doing these exercises anyway. Hey, Sasha, what's happening? Thank you so much. You just I enjoy this so much. I learn so much every time. And it just you are just like unbounded generosity. And it's the vibes are immaculate. And thank you so much. So I just wanted to say that in case I don't get a chance another time. But my question is, I guess, how how, you know, when something's working, like, do you have anything that like any kind of touch points that you're like, that you kind of know about ahead of time or any kind of feeling or sensation or something like in your process? Yeah, I do. I do. It's interesting. I was reading something just yesterday, which is talking about writer's block and how, you know, some people say it's not real, some people say it is and some writers know when they're in their groove and some don't. So it's good to develop and continue to develop the ability to know when you're in the groove, right? When you're in your own and it's different for everybody. If you can read your work and feel like it's moving along, right? That's a good indication. If you can feel your work, if you read your work and feel like that's that paragraph is moving along. Oh, that's boring. I'm bored right now. I would just circle it that you might have jumped out of the groove, you know, or oh, wow, I'm trying to show the audience how smart I am, whether it's a play or a novel or a song or a whatever. I went to that chord because see, I'm playing that chord in the song. Look how good I am. That's usually an indication that you're out of the groove, right? You're trying to impress the audience. So those are things that I usually use. It's a feeling that you develop over time and it is helped by feedback you get from, again, your first reader outside yourself, actors or readers that you would involve in your process. And I tend to rely, though, more on what I think it should be rather than other people because sometimes, like Jonathan was saying, like, if you get great actors and they read it and it's, oh man, they love it because it's all about, you know, skiing and they love skiing and it's amazing because it's about skiing and they just go off like that and they're so generous and kind and loving and you know that there are more holes in it than, you know, it's just not hitting it. So it's a development of an understanding about your own work. Do you know, can you read something at this point and go, that's not it yet? Can you do that with your own work? I definitely have more of like throwing a lot of stuff against the wall and like some of it, you know, I can tell it doesn't stick for like a long time. You know, I'm older now. I couldn't finish anything when I was younger because I was just like, this is all trash. And all of a sudden now that I'm older, I'm like, I kind of only start when I feel something. And so then I kind of work until I try to finish it. But I try not to go down those paths anymore than I'm like, like you're talking about like external motivation, I guess, or validation or. Yeah, you want you want to feel you or have you ever like gone on a date? I know I look like someone who has never done that. No, no, no, I know I'm kidding. I didn't take it that way. Okay. Or like, you had a great conversation with somebody and you're like vibing. Yeah, you know, you're vibing or you hang out with some friends and it feels good. You know, a group of friends like, hey, this is my tribe that feeling. Yeah, you're not really thinking you're just kind of there. Yeah, you're there's a connection. It's deeper than just some surface shit. Yeah. It's drop. That's the feeling you want to have with your work. Yeah, like, yeah, like you dropped below the level of surface into something like an underground stream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the second part of what you said kind of made me think of this other question I haven't ever asked, but it's been on my mind a couple times with other people's questions. It's just like, and I like what you said so much about like, you want to kind of please yourself because I worry about stuff like with asking other people like I'm very cautious now because of past experiences where it's like, like I don't I don't want like, like maybe they're going to come from a place of like patriarchy or like what if like they're going to come from a place of, you know, whatever other bullshit, you know what I mean? So it's like, you have to be careful sometimes I feel like to protect your work from that. And you know, I don't know, maybe you have some like something you can say about that. Hmm. It happens. I just, there are a lot of wonderful people out there who will give you good positive, you know, good feedback, helpful feedback, constructive feedback, helping you edit, revise all those good things that you need, encourage you to keep going forward. And there are a lot of people who are, who are haters. They're out there. They're out there. It's unfortunate. And I would say that's why I say, read your work. Feel good about your work before you send it out. Be mindful of who you, you know, there's that movie that there's an American version, but the better version is the original version. I think it was made in Sweden. It's called Let the Right One In. It's about vampires. Anyway, this is weird. Let the right one in. You got to let the right one in. You got to check this movie out. The American one is the original one is like fire. It's all about vampires, little vampires. Anyway, the idea is that you let the right people into your circle. Be very mindful of who you're letting in, who you're listening to, who you're, you might not be able to control who you, who gives you notes because if you're working in art, you're working for a theater, maybe there are lots of people who give you notes and they're allowed to, but you're allowed, you are allowed to take certain notes and to very politely not take all the notes. You know what I mean? So just be very mindful. Get your people who love you around you, who love you more than they love to see their notes in your work. And just know that people that, I mean, I, you know, people have told just as latest last year, people said some shit to me, like yell at me for shit in theater. So, you know, they're out there. Let me add them. Yeah, yeah, I took care of them as cool. And the best way, the best way we can take care of those people, those haters, is to keep working because their desire, because they feel shitty about something they don't have nothing to do with you, their desire is to shut you down. And the best way we can, we can win, if you will, is to keep going. And, and yeah, I've been writing plays for 40 years. And I've had all kinds of people tell me all kinds of stupid shit, you know, and I just, I just want you to know that you just got to keep going. You have to keep going. So, and keep writing, keep finishing your work, keep finding communities that will, that will be supportive, not like supportive, like everything you do is great. It's not t-ball. We're not in, you know, second grade over here, right? We can take a strong critique. Okay, we want to get better. We want to get better. We want to be amazing. We want to develop as artists. Okay. So, but just keep finishing your work. I think it's great that you're at the point in your, in your artistic development when you can finish your work, because that's when you're going to know what it's really about. Finish it, rewrite it. Yeah, surround yourself with people who, who care about you. Thank you so much. Thank you. And keep coming back here because we love you. Yeah, I'm too. Who wants to be next? There's six minutes left. No, I have two highlighters. I'm doing, I said, it's really good stuff, you know, you just kind of move your eyes back and forth and it strengthens your eyes, because your eyes are just your brain, the part of your brain that's outside your head. I'd like to ask something, but I always forget how to raise my hand on this. So if no one else is going to ask a question, I'm going to ask a question. Hi. Thank you so much. I'm in cahoots with everyone else. It's just so, it's so inspiring to be here. And I was having such a lousy day this morning, like just really feeling like I wanted to give up on everything. And I just get in here and I'm like, okay, I can do it. I'm having a really hard time because of the war. And like, like, I'm, I last time I was on here, I was talking about producing my playing right now and trying to raise money. And I'm like, it's really hard to ask for anything right now. And I'm just really struggling. And I just feel like, I mean, this is a question for my therapist, but I'm like, as artists, you know, when something like this is going on, it's like, how do we continue on and, and feel okay, like, still doing our own thing when all this stuff is happening that like, we're so powerless over, you know, it's just been really hard day. So I just feel like, and I, as artists, I know we all struggle with this. So, but it's just really affecting me. And I think, and like, I'm in the middle of trying to raise, yeah, like, I'm in the middle of trying to raise money. And like, I have to ask people for money. And like, this is going on, it's weird. It's really don't know like how to like reset my mind and make it like, so that it's I'm, I'm, I'm productive and still helping with my art, you know, like, I don't know if this is a question. I mean, I guess I'm trying to ask a question, but I'm I, if I can jump in, let me, Linda, I really appreciate what, what I am receiving as a question, like, how do we keep going when there's just things going on in the world? And when you say the war, you know, bless your heart, I was like, which one one, no, I feel you. And, and there are a couple of things that, that I do, you know, I mean, and again, my thing isn't your thing, you know, but we all have a common thing because we're all human beings. I work to focus on the things I can do something about, you know, I mean, I the things I can do something about and know, I know, or I believe I really have the faith that doing what I can do is going to help the things I don't have power over, you know, and if it feels weird to ask for money right now for it to do a play, you can put that on pause. It doesn't mean that you've abandoned the notion of getting your play done. Yeah, just put it on pause. And, you know, reaching, I mean, reaching out to, to larger things, I do that a lot too. And it's going to sound weird, but reaching, I mean, community is important, like this community, higher power is a community, you know, and I'm I'm not saying thoughts and prayers. What I am saying is the recognition that that there is a clarity of mind that happens when you go above your own cloud cover. And there is there's an there's an opportunity for a new way of seeing things when you get above your own cloud cover. Do you see what I mean? And that can help you, that can help us get through the day. And that's all we're trying to do, just get through the day. Yeah. You know, yeah, I feel like I'm supposed to be writing about what's happening. And it's like, for me, it's like my play is just about something silly, you know, it's like, it's totally bizarre. And so it's like, it's a little bit of a mindfuck where I'm like, well, shouldn't I be trying to save the world? Like I'm just doing some silly play. That's how I feel. And I need to get out of my mind. Oh, yeah. But you know, the world, there are a gazillion ways to save the world. And if we're all of us doing our work is part of that. Yeah. You know, that because that's what we do. I mean, doing your work helps save the world. People are putting stuff in chat. Thank you guys so much. I know we're at the end and I appreciate it. I appreciate your question. We all appreciate your question. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey, I gotta watch the Watchmen work the suggestion for your digestion, the Watchmen work tip of the week. Of course, today is vote, people. I got my vote New York because I live in New York City. I voted early because I don't like to stand in line. But but those of you who haven't yet vote, vote like your life depends on it because guess what it does. And you can say, Oh, this isn't a big election. Now I'm going to wait till next year. Get in the habit of voting. Okay, so so vote tomorrow if you haven't already. And we are at six o'clock and we are it's it's the observation Veterans Day next week. Is that correct Zoe? Our meeting next week. I'm sorry I didn't hear you. We are meeting next week. Our meeting next week. Fan tabulous. Okay, okay. And we're also meeting on the 27th, but we are not meeting on the 20th. Okay. Alrighty, Alrighty. Alright, well, thank you very much. Have a wonderful week. See you soon. Be well. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.