 Mae'n gwybod. Yn ymwneud yma yn ymwneud i'w manfa Platton Wave Campers, y Unedig Llywodraeth Llywodraeth Lwyddiadol yn canpofanniai. Felly, i'w llwyddo'i, i'w gweithio'r canpofanniai, platton wave campers yn gwneud i'w gwneud. Dyna yw'r llwyddiadau yw'n gweithio'n gwneud o y cystynbydol, oedd ydw'ch ffyniad am glasgwagol yn y cyfrifau. Rydyn ni'n rydyn ni'n gweithio'r gweithio. Fel eich ei ddynion, os ydych yn eich gweithio gyda'r ganfer, ac mae'n rai'ch tharn, i fod yn 500 pound, gyda'r ddarlun Cod James 500. O gyda'r ddarlun i'r ddarlun i'r ddarlun i'r ddarlun Prydd, a'r ddarlun i'ch ddarlun i'r ddarlun i'r ddarlun i'r ddarlun. Now, let's get into the episode. You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button felly mae'n siŵtio'r amser o hynny yn ei ddweud o'r ffodol. Wel, mae'n gwneud. I flwyddyn nhw'n gwneud y gwaith, John Macie. Gael yn ei ddweud? Gael'n gwneud. Efallai. Wel, mae'n ddweud o'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Dwi'n fawr, dwi'n gweithio'n gweithio. Mae'r gwisglaeth i'n gwneud. Mae'r gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Mae'n ffarnwyr, 43. 43 Höll Prison Escape? Pretty mad. You only get out a few years ago. First and foremost how are you? I've had a few health problems. I had a couple of strikes when I come out. I'm still a little bit difficult with me speaking it, but otherwise I'm alright. Thanks for coming to on to day to tell your story, fascinating story like I says. I always go back to the start Dwi'n dechrau, dyna'r lleidio'r radd? Rwy'n dechrau. Rydyn ni'n Camlun, ac yna'n meddwl ei wneud yn Hoxden, Shoreditch. Rydyn ni'n, rydyn ni'n Camlun. Rydyn ni'n amser i ni blynydd. Rydyn ni'n fardd. Rydyn ni'n meddwl? Fyny'n meddwl gyda'u gweld, byddwn ni'n meddwl yng Nghaerdydd. Ond, mae gofpo'r gweithio'r echynig yma i hanes edrych yn ymgyrch gyflawni. Wel, mae'n gofo yn ymgyrch gyflawni yn y ddech chi. Mae rhaid o godi newydd y gallan y maen nhw? Nw'n drws. Beth ond yn yr oedd o'r phoblodau gweld Cymru i'r arddangos, neu y plaid? Yn ysgrifennu, ymrhyw bach i yma – unrhyw yfnig o'r symud o'i ddweithio. Yn 7 ydych chi'n ymwneud yn 2 oed nesaf. A'r gwaith yw'r amser yn ymdau i'r ysgol, sy'n ymdau i'r ysgol yn ymdau i'r ysgol. Yn ymdau'r ysgol? Yn ymdau, mae gennym yn 3 ymdau. Yn ymdau i'r ysgol? Yn ymdau i'r ysgol yn ymdau i'r ysgol, felly mae'n bwysig oherwydd. ac i chi'n gweithio'r amser yn ymddangos, mae'n gweithio'r rhaglenol, i fi gweithio'r dreunio'r ymddangos, a gweithio'r blwyr, a ddim... Felly felly pob hwnnw'n mynd i chi'n gweithio'r cyllid ac yn cael ei ddyn nhw'n mynd i chi'n gweithio'r cyllid? Felly ond sy'n gweithio'r cwestiynau felly ei wneud o'i siwr i gweithio, ond ei wneud. A gweithio'r cyllid o'i ffordd If they have a severe traumatic effect on you Cos my mum made this so I was maaan wyld You can't envy living without your mum when you have a little kid, can you? Did you ever see it again? Of course I did yeah And I know mum did it for the right reasons She was as heartbroken as I was But she couldn't cope with Cyngoru yn rhaid, ac mae'r yw'r cyfnodd yn gweithio ar y cyfrifod yr hynny yn rhaid. Yn ddweud o fod yn rhaid yr hyn? Rhaid. Yn y gweithio, mae'n gweithio edrych fel y dyfodol, a dyfodol yma, dyfodol yr hyn o'r cynnwys. Felly mae'n gweithio, dwi ddim yn ymlaen. the violent streak start was a patterns from an early age before you went to prison or was that gradually come unfortunately i don't blame my my dad was very violent but i've come to terms with it by accepting that he was a victim of his own generation so if i came in from the street crying ..yna at rhaid wahanol. Felly, dyfodd hynny'n meddwl yma. Felly, ei gweithio i gael rhai, yn gallu. Felly, rhaid i'n meddwl i gael'i, Felly, ddim ddim yn meddwl i gael i gael... ..yna, yna'r ddweud o'u, ..cymdeidio'n meddwl i gael. Felly ddim yn meddwl i gael ffraid. Felly, ychydig i'n meddwl i gael. Ychydig i chi gael? Ychydig i chi. Ychydig i chi. Ychydig i chi'n meddwl i gael? I would like to help you to get a bed at lunch time. After lunch away for now or so. And I couldn't sleep. I was too much alight. How can you go to sleep when you've got so much energy? Sony and they got so frustrating. They took me into a surgery room, and strapped me into a gynaed. But I found a way to wriggle out and undo the clips. Ew, e'n gweithio gyd yn y ffoc i. Felly, dwi'n ddigon i'n ddweud i'r un o'r un, yn y dŵr yn ymddi. Rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r amgylcheddau? Mae, mae... Mae ffawr? Mae'n meddwl i'r ffawr i'r hyn o'r gwirionedd, sy'n cymryd, a'i ddweud i'r rhan o'r droma? Mae'n meddwl i'r cwm. Maen nhw'n ddacos, oes, oes, oes yn oeddiad. Mae'n meddwl yw'r gweithio? Felly mae'n meddwl i'w meddwl yn ddau, ond mae'n meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl, wedi'u meddwl y bydd ydw i. Mae gen i. A nad oeddiwch i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl i'w meddwl. A wnaeth i ddweud, mae gyrsodd ar gyfer lleidol yma, gyda'r ddegtyddio'r ddych chi'n gweithio. Rwy'n dechrau, mae'r ddegtyddio ar y cyfrifod ar y ddeg. Mae'n ddegu'r ddegu'r ddegu'r ddegu'r ddegu'r ddegu. Rydw i wedi'i amser i'r dros yma? Mae'r ddegu'r ddegu? Rydw i'r ddegu'r dros yma? Rydw i. Rydw i'r ddegu. Rydw i'r ddegu'r ddegu'r ddegu. Yn ffrind yn gwneud yn y ddegu. Maen nhw'n gwneud, mae'n bach yn y llyfr yn gallu'r ffordd. Roeddwn i'n dweud y busb o'r 2 ysgol. Rwy'n ei gweithio'n gweithio eich cwmifethau yn gefnol y transig. Yn 36 a 39 o'r angen. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio sydd yna. Fyddyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. ac yn ymchwil, y cyflin featureddy erbyn eich yr ysgolion gwahydol, ac nid oes iawn ond yr acoll yma'r wneud arni fel yw'r un i. Yna'n bywysiau wrth, ac mae fydd o'r cyflin wrth fynd yn cael ei ffwrdd. Yna yw wych chi'n bost-o rydych chi'n ei wneud o'r asylio, oedrych, mwythu, iddym, bwysig, allwch ansiwch eich teimlo gyda maen nhw, â y ffordd fy môl yn y pwysig oהwn. So byddwn i'r ddau'r ddechrau, maen nhw'n ddigon i'r mynd i'r ddweud yn ei ddweud yw mynd i'r ddarparu? Felly, rydyn i'r ddweud, fel o'ch bydd yn ei ddweud, rydyn i ddweud yn ei ddweud. Felly, rydyn i'r ddweud i ddweud. Byddai'n hynny'n gwneud y First Bank? wynaeth bair. Dw i'n dal i'ch meddwl dwych. Yn gyflwyneud mewn tynnu, ychydig, mae'n hawdd gwmpio mae'r amlwg. Mae'r ffordd gwysig. Mae rhaid o'i gwno yn rhan o'r yn ôl i ddis fulfillf. Mae ddwy'n ddwy'n ddechrau i gael ymblodd yn ffordd ac rhan o'r dyfwn yn ddisfiwn i'r tuolig yw hufrob yn ffordd. Llywydd i chi'n ddim yn ei wneud o'r arferwch yn ffordd, mae'n ddwy'n ddwy'n ddwy'n ddwy. o gwneud hynny, mae'r ddechrau llwyddoedd, ac yn ydy rhai. Mae'n fynd i gael. Mae'r ffordd i'r ddylched. Felly mae'n gweithio chi'n mynd i fynd i gael. Fy gennych nhw? Mae phobl yn ymddur yma. Fy gennych nhw, mae'r ddechrau llwyddoedd Cymru. Mae daeth yn gwneud i Arhiynau Euros. I didn't find enough hiding places for it. We both bought houses, we both bought like we had a boat, the old assomot and we had Bentley. We just didn't know what to do the rest of money. We had to meet one night to foresee...perseverly buy a couple of businesses so we could have a little bit of legal income coming in. Dyma'r gwaith yw'r cyfnod yn gweithio y pwg yw'r hyffordd. Mae'r bod yn gwneud i'r ysgol, mae yna'r gweithio, ac mae'n bwysig i'r cyfnod. Ac mae'n gweithio'r gweithio ar y club ac yn gweithio. Mae'n gweithio ar y dyfodol, yn gweithio'r cyfnod. Yn yw'r amlŷn, mae'r gweithio'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. I actually detect violence although I've had so much of it. It kind of ruins you, it ruins you, it corrupts you. I can't understand people that do grwchwurture violence it don't make sense to me. It has to be, for a reason you know. Yeah because you've experienced that whole life. When I was in Spain when I was on the run people came up to me, I try to issue my hands as a grains to go and shoot people. I asked him a question, why? What's he done? I went dumb out of what he's done. I said, what he does to me. I said, if he's fucking wrong and he's left the kids without food and he's fucked your family up, I'll do it for nothing. Mae'n gwiriaeth amser o daniaith a'r pub i dwylo gyda ni gywir edrych nhw i gael. Mae'n gwiriaeth amser o daniaith a'r pub i dwylo i gael, a yw wedi gyntaf ni'n gwirio'n gweithio. Mae'n dweud yn awdol, a byddwn i'n defnyddiadau, a rhai fyddwn i'r unrhyw wneud y ffordd, a mynd i'n ffordd i'u bach chi. Mae'n gynghoriwaith yma, iechyd yn hynny'r ffordd iawn, byddwn i gael yw'r cwric. Rwyf yn rhoi hwyl. Mae'r llun oedd yn olygu, gwrs yn olygu, yn olygu honi'n gobeithio i gael gael. Dwi'n gobeithio ar hyn y ffordd fedrall y rhan. Gofyn i'w ddigon i ddodd gael. Ond efallai rai'n gweithio a'r blig. Ond efallai efallai o'r ffordd wedi'u gweld atbydd i'r bobl. Yna… Ysgrifetid. Yna, a… A'r dweud o'r ddechrau… Mae'n gweithio a ddefnyddio'r parnau. Yn y gweithio, dyna dyna yng Nghymru. Dyna'r ddechrau yn ddechrau. Yn y ddechrau, dyna'r ddechrau ddechrau. A dyna', dwi'n gweithio'r ddechrau. Johnnie Dovage, we had a fire way back in to get him out, and he had been glassed in the eyes, and it was horrific. His eyes were laying on his cheek like a sliced onion, and naturally he put it down to the bouncer. Bouncer, in him days, weren't employed for their diplomacy. They were employed because they were thugs. You know, they were violent people. Anyhow, the cut long story short, it just was unfortunate that near that area we had a flat where we kept our arsenal, you know. So we pulled up, had about three guns each, went back, knocked on the door, and the bouncer answered. And I had no intentions whatsoever of shooting anybody. I just wanted to get older, the perpetrators, and give them a bit of likewise treatment, you know. But he happened to throw me a punch while I got a gun trying to hit me. It was just, and the rest of his history, he just pulled the trigger unintentionally. What was that feeling once you found out it was dead? Well, I was in a role play at the time. I just carried forward with the forward momentum and carried on into the club. But now, you know, obviously now, or even then, if I could have pressed it back and brought it back into life, I would have done that. You know, because I don't really believe he deserved to die for whatever. He's just another misguided person, you know. When did you find out John that he was dead? Well, I kind of knew immediately because no one could have survived. I mean, I was holding me two pistols and a ramming an automatic shotgun. And it was a shotgun I shot him with. It was such close range, just no one could have survived it, you know. And where were you with your two friends at that time? He was busy running up the other people, you know. It was a bit like an old Wild West movie shooting up the barn and everything. But the people that were responsible escaped up the stairs. There was a club at the bottom and a pub at the top. And they escaped up through the pub and out the door. So we'd already taken our friend to hospital by then. That was the first thing we did. Dropped him off at the emergency department at the hospital. And he's been blind to this day. But no one ever mentioned him. So there were three victims that day. Well, more than that because each of us had family. So we're all victims, really. Yeah, it has that ripple effect. Do you think more people could have died if they never escaped? I wouldn't say that, no. Because our original plan was to get the people responsible and maybe give them a few custom bruises. But never killing anyone was never in my consciousness. So I can't say it from my friends or whatever. It was never in my consciousness. I got classes at Ringlead a bit of time because I was the one who pulled your trigger back. I don't know. So after that then, you found out a man has been murdered. What do you do then? Well, I just had a young baby at the time, Sarah. She was only a month old. And she was standing at my friend's house with his wife. I was out. So that was the first job to go and pick my partner up, Marilyn and Sarah, in the backseat of the car. And I had a bunglo in Essex at the time. And I was almost home when I realised I had got picked up at the tail of a police car. But on the corner of where I live was a local constabulary. And I thought, well, just maybe they're heading back to base. But in my heart I've asked, I knew. But I couldn't do anything because of the wife and baby in the car. So anyhow, carried on to where I live. I pulled into the driveway. By the time I pulled into the driveway, the street was absolutely flooded with police cars and vans. And I had a semi-circulate driveway. You could drive in one way and out the other. And it blocked off both sides, entrance and exit. And then it blocked off the cul-de-sac. I lived in the cul-de-sac as well, so I was like triple boxed in, you know. And I got them indoors out of harm's way. And then I pulled the gun out again. Then it all scattered. I jumped back in the car. Baird the panda out in the driveway like a cardboard box. But I couldn't get past the rover and the police van. So I thought, I got out of the car. I walked towards the patrol car. I think, fuck it, I'll take the patrol car. By the time I got there, they pressed all the buttons and stuck them out of view, you know. So I was left with limited options. Then I thought, I'll get out of this. So I fired a shot at the blue light. But I found out I missed that and it hit the top of the windscreen and the rubbers around. But when the bullet hit, the rover reversed it for 30 mile an hour. You couldn't even see a driver, you know. But that gave me enough gaps to get through. So I run back to the ass of my own going and boom. Now I had this big long chase for about 20 minutes. And look, it was hairy. I'll still get goosebumps now when I think about it, you know. Because if they'd have called me, they would have shot me full of holes, you know. I'd have been like a columner. But anyhow, a couple of times I've gone here this last round about and they've got it all blocked off. I had nowhere to go, couldn't go left, couldn't go right. So I thought, fuck it, I went right over the top. Then I come out on the wrong side of a dual carriageway. So I put the headlights on, full beam, holding onto the horn and just told it. It was lucky it was early hours of the morning. There wasn't a lot of traffic. And then I realised that, well, the police had gone down the right side. And I realised after a while that I've got a right turn and they haven't. So I took them over a couple of more intersections, chucked them right. When we had a few turnings, left the Aston Martin in someone's driveway and nicked their claptack container. And all of a sudden I've come to another roadblock and they've waved me through. I said, I've got away. See when you say they will, if they shot you, they'd have killed you. Oh, absolutely. They were pissed. They were absolutely pissed. Well, I was sure I actually hit the back window of the Aston Martin. I still got a bit of a strap in the way of me. Do you ever wish sometimes it would have? Not really, no. Because I don't want to win. You know? I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean. You know what I mean? A weird question to ask. It's just good to understand how people are feeling at certain times, at certain moments, going through that experience I stam it was and they were looking at it. You know the neighbours go look at the old building, I'll be all right. I'll fail like this. See us coming back. And then we dug down the side to an infine, and we find a walk through to get away. We walked into another dead end and the patrol car pulled up right beside us. And my man said, like, Ie, dwi wnaeth yr unig, yr unig, y Tango 4, a dwi'n cael eu chlas i niadio. Fe ydych chi'n gwneud hynny o Canon Town. Felly, mae'r rhan o'r rhan o'r canon town i'n weithio. Yn gwybod, dweud yna. Felly, mae'r rhaglen yn ychwaneg. Mae'r bwysig i'n gweithio'n ymellod. yn y busgoon y bydd yn gallu i'r topdydd. Yn ymgyrch i dinodd yr oed. Yn ymgyrch swynyn yn gynwedd yn cydwyr ar y ABS, a'r clodrhaeddoedd yn ddaw yma. Wrth fyinizi yn bizogol yr oed. Ond symudio'n ddal ei fod yn ymgyrch. Rydyn ni'n ddweud yma! Ac rydyn ni'n ddweud yn rhan o fynd? Rydyn ni'n ddweud yn oed. Rydyn ni'n ddweud ond ar eich gael. Ond yn y gallu gwelir, gan y gallu'n fydd mogwch. Mae'n i-fynllonio, mae'n i-fynllonio i chi i gynnyddio'r busnau cwntio. Mae'r ffordd, mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Ffyrddwch, mae'n gweithio'r campau. Dyn nhw ychydig, aeth yr ysgolwyd? A'r ffordd. Ac mae'r gwaith ffordd? Fydde, rydyn nhw ddim. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'r gwaith. Mae'n ffordd i'r gweithio'r gwaith. Yr rydyn ni'n gweld rwy'n gweld rydyn ni'n gweld ar y pwysig. Roedd yn ei gwybod yw'r griffwyr yn lle i'r ffordd. Roedd yn gweithio. Roedd yn gweithio i'r ffordd y ffordd, a'r cyffredin iawn i'w ffordd. Roeddwn i'r mwyntio i'r ffordd. Mae'r rhaid i chi wedi bod eisiau. Rwy'n meddwl bod gaelwyr i'r ffordd. Mae'r rhaid i'r ffordd yn ynglyn, a'r rhaid i chi'r ffordd yn y canol, i'r ffordd y gweithio. Roedd o'r gweithio yw'r sefydlu. Roedd yn gweithio i'r gwahogau. Cymru, mae'r dneil gyda'r lewyddo iaith i chi dw i'w hwn oír re excitingau. Mae'r ddonion ar yr un gweinbeth i chi, mae'n fyddio angen i gynnyddai'n bwysig ar hyn, mae'n gweinydd. Ond yr hyn yn ddim? Dyn ni oedd. Dim ond, mae'n ddechrau'r ysgolio gyda'r gyflawnio. Diynau fod ysgolio ysgolio? Dau. Ond ychwaneg yr idea, byddai'n siwr ar hyn a'ch hunain. felly ddigonwch i'r ddweud i sciences diwylliannau oed. Felly oedd gael cael ei wneud ein cyd-na? Dyna yng Nghymru wedi ddechrau a'r ffordd. Mae cwso nhw yna ddim yn cael cael, ac rwy'n cael? Yn cael, mae'r dweud i ei peth yn y ddechrau. Moe oherwydd mae'n sicr ar-gwiaeth ar rai gwaith? Yn cael, mae maen nhw i gweithio i'r dweud. a fawr y gallu ei wneud ychydig i ddechrau'r cyffredinol ein prosdex. Ond mae'n gwybod gofynnod. Mae'n cyfnod o'r piwgau gyda'r ganddofnol yng Nghymru a'r ganddofnol i'r defnyddio. Mae gennym yn bwysig o'r ganddofnol ar y cyfnodech chi oedd o'r ganddofnol yn gweld. Mae'n ei wneud. Mae'n ychydig i'r cyfnod o'r llyfrd. Mae ychydig i'r llyfrdd. Mae'n ddau'n ddweud ystod i ddweud hynny, dyn ni'n ddweud yma'r ddweud i'r ddweud. Rwy'n ddai'n ei ddweud. Felly mae'n ddweud. Mae'n ddweud â'r pethau ychydigol, ac mae'n ddweud i'r gaeliannau allanol o'r ganddau. Rwy'n byddai'n adrweud. Felly mae'n ddweud i'r adrweud. A gwnaeth yn ei ddweud. Felly, mae'n dnas iawn at ddoch, mae'n meddwl, dwi'n ddiddordeb yn gyffnadau peitio. Mae ddodod, mae'n ddiddordeb yn ddod, g май yn ei ddweud oed. Ie ddim yn ymdweud ddefnyddio. Yn ambrangol, mae unig yn ddweud drwg. Mae'n ddiddordeb gynrychiol diwrnod, a wedyn fyddech chi'n cael eu wneud. I went, how are you doing, John? I said, to tell you the truth, mate, I'm fucking bored shitless. He said, Simon, I said, fuck it, get the tools out, we're going to work. And that was it. Every time it lasted two weeks. I don't know who can tell you why. What was the thrill? Like, is it the thrill of being in control? Or is it the thrill of making more money? For me personally, it was the thrill of beating the system and doing something well. It's like, I'm a carpenter. I can't leave a job unless it's perfection to me. You know, nothing else will suffice or give me satisfaction. I said, I might spend the next three days on a job with another one. We go to Bishbashbos to leave it, take the money and run. For me, it's the pride in the work. Even in prison, I was cleaning toilets. I had to clean them probably. Many jobs did they have you down and doing? That was the only job I would accept, cleaner. For the corpus, when you get caught, how many banks did they say you'd done? Well, they didn't bother prosecuting with them. You're getting a lifer anyway? Yeah, yeah. But did they say that? Yeah. Was there a number? Well, they haven't got the phone number. Yeah, that's why I asked what number did they say. Did they give a certain number? Because obviously it's a two-man job, they must have now strayed away, right? Yeah. There's not many banks being done by two. In the case that I, unlike me, who'd have gotten a quill on the murder, they would have... Is there a good chance you'd have probably got a lifer for that? Well, not really. No-one got killed or anything. Fucking ting, I caused a hostage, your man, stealing his car. Yeah, but I don't have this silly admiration for people in uniform that most people have. And I said, oh, you can do anything, don't just a prisoner or something like that. It's stupid and like you do the same fucking cancer as we are, you know. Anybody that takes a liberty with other people deserves what they get, whether they're in uniform or not. How does it feel when you were getting bullied when you're younger from the screws and then bossed on that, but then you eventually become, Like, up earlier, you were getting into banks and that as well. Like, you're doing that? No, I was in a bully. I was very sensitive to people's reactions. And I even calmed down a few guards, you know. Cos the colour got really frying. I got my figures, mate. Take it easy, relax, mate. Everything is going to be all right. It's not your money. Did anybody ever try and become a hero? No. After established, you have to put your foot down on that immediately to remove that from the equation, you know. Guy, I'm from Porcelman. He dressed up as a copper at the post office. They were letting them in and making them tea. And while he was doing that, it was fucking just raiding it all. I think it was 70 grand and that was back in the early 80s. She made them all tea, but then obviously when it says right, it made them all feel calmer. But then again, the trauma will still hit them as well. Did you ever think about that as a year's pass on, that all those banks getting in and people screaming that does that have a playing your mind as well, John? It does. Because you're not really aware of it at the time. But on reflection, you look back at your past, you think. God, I must have been all right. Fucking asshole, you know. Some of the things I've done with that. But I don't know. I've made reparation wherever I can in certain things, you know. Obviously, you can't repair a lot of the damage you've done. But I don't know. It's like someone asked me a day about... I mean, I was approached by Scotland Yard at the beginning of my sentence. And normally you wouldn't entertain having an interview with them. But I was intrigued, you know. I wanted to know what they knew. Suddenly I agreed to this visit. And they offered me five years in Chiswick Police Station in a suite of cells where you could live in comparative luxury of your girlfriend or your wife or whatever, a boozer. If I copped up my pals. If I gave them information on all me bank robbing friends. We didn't know what my answer was. I ended up doing 43 straights. There's not many people who have done that to me. How many people would have bit their fucking armour? Fucking right, there we go. But they don't realise. I remember, because Bertie Smalls was the first one. I went with my bank robbers. He traded all these pals in for... I don't even know if he's still alive. I hope he ain't. To me it's more important to walk along that street and hold your head up and know that nobody can point a finger at you. That's more than any man in prison or money. I'll do this sentence all over again. If they threaten me with it if I won't give them names or whatever. I'll do it all over again. No hesitation. I think that's why you're respected though. I think that's why there's not many of that. You know yourself, in that game there's no lawyer any more. No, but James, if you can't live with yourself you might as well be fucking dead anyway. Because that guilt will eat you from your inside out. Seem ni o'r gymryd? How long did the court case last? Just over three weeks, I think. Did that offer you a deal to plead? Were you done banking rates? I suppose with all the evidence there and the witnesses, I still pleaded not guilty. Still try to fight this system? I think it's really come back with, in the end, it couldn't get you, you know? It ended up 11-1 I think. So it's pretty strong. But the judge was a bit of a prick. He made a birdie of me straight away. Where's my power? He ended up doing a 14 stretch of his life sentence. So I'm in the winnings box and the judge said, would you like a glass of water, Mr Massey? I thought, yes, I would, thank you. And he's made this business of pouring glass of water. And he's got the hand in me and he pulled it back lively. Put it into a plastic cup. I thought, you can't. He's made me look like an animal, like a wild animal. I'm not trusted with glass. How was it going through the court case? Was it Charlie Higgins? Yeah. Was his family there? I don't know. I was only conscious of any family men, members of Charlie Higgins, his old streets, magistrate court, and his sister. I loved, never forgot it. She was in the public gallery, which was the same level as the court, you know? And as we got what they called it, not convicted, you have to go to the magistrates before you go to High Court, don't you? So then we finished with that on the way out, and it was this woman that was, you could see the pain in her face and tears, and she half said something to me, and I leaned forward and she spat at me. And I turned out to be his sister. And I really felt sorry for her all these years. Yeah, because I know how my own family felt about me. I never saw that pain again when I was in London before I was sentenced. And I got the news that my brother, Terry, had committed suicide. He was only ten months younger to me. And we'd read a couple of letters, and we were quite close. We sort of shared a bedroom, sort of most of our life, you know? Obviously, you had the fights that I wanted to have, so if you were short, you were wearing those socks and all that, but I loved them the best. Anyhow, they took me to a chapel where my family was, and I remember my sister, especially my older sister Carol, she was an absolute bitch, you know? It was the same look on her face as Charlie Higgins' sister. Why? Why? Because they've both lost a brother. Did she blame you? Yes, that's the one. Oh, no. For the loss of my brother Terry. So I'm now the only surviving male in the family where I've met Dad like that. But what that gave me was a secret weapon in prison, really, because I knew as low as I ever got in prison and there were some bad, dark times in prison, I could never do what my brother did. I could never inflict that pain on them twice. You understand what I mean? So that left me with... Although there were many times I wanted to die, but I couldn't do that to my family. But that left me with the secret weapon, no fear. I didn't give a fuck about dying. If the schools wanted to come and beat me up, I'd meet you face head-on. And that's what they caught in hand with me in prison. I wouldn't give in, no matter how much they hurt me. I thought it was legitimate to die in combat, as it were, but no way would I ever do it to myself. Which gave me that weapon of absolutely fearless. In the eyes of the school where you've got a lot of prisons curled up into a ball in the corner, oh, please, sir, no more. I'd fuck all that and give it to them, until you're unconscious. Then when you wake up, give it to them again. If a school comes at my door and you open it and ask, I could tell immediately by the menu on his face whether he'd come to give me grief. Because if a school said good morning to me, the hardest thing in the world for me is not to say good morning back. But if he'd come to give me grief, I wouldn't even bother waiting to find out or jump up straight away and stick that nut on him. I'd go, oh, would you do that for me? Because you're about to do it to me, you cunt. And they did. What was it like when you got your guilty, John? I remember my legs feeling like jelly when I was sentenced. When I couldn't do that. The impulse of it meant like a cost, you know? Then you got to face your partner and your mum and your dad and your sisters. It was all very emotional time. What did they give you at 23? No, they gave me a life sentence with a minimum of 20. So that means there's no maximum. So when I did get... When I came to the 20-year review, they gave me a brown envelope with a knockback in it. So when you knock it, I thought, fuck it. That was when I made my first escape. After the 20 years? Yeah, I thought they ain't going to let me out. Fuck it, I'll let myself out. How many prisons were you in that, 20 years? I lost count. I've been in every prison in the country. Except Whitemore. I remember being transferred from Long Lighting in a 52-seater coach. There were about eight schools, just me, on the way to Whitemore. I think we'd get about 100 miles or whatever when the radio had come up. No, we'd done one in there. So they'd try to park me up in other prisons so they'd try to park me up in other prisons. The answer kept coming back. No, we'd done one in there. So I said to them, like, no one fucking wants me. Drop me up in the nearest bus stop, you know. But in the end, I would end up in Winston Green in Birmingham. And... When you was carrying the other guys, you got moved every three months anyway. So they couldn't sell. Or if you was digging the tunnel, you'd go and finish it. Did you ever come across Charlie Bronson? Yeah, I did, yeah. What was he like? I don't really want to talk about him. Because I fell out of him. And I'm still pissed off with him to this day. A little sad about that. What about when you'd done your 20 stretch then? Did you have it in your mind that it was possible that you could have got out? I might have towed a lion and been a choir boy or whatever and did the yes or no to three banks. Probably would have. But I can't say it's impossible. Did you do any courses or anything for behaviour? Yeah. I did, like, the basic. R and R, whatever they call it. But most of the work, I've got other people to fill the forms in, you know. I just couldn't be arsed with it. Because unless you go and they're a complete waste of time, you get prisoners or artists, they can sell through these courses like Greece. But me, you've got to be devious to do that. You've got to fuck it. What you see is what you get with me are if they don't like the answer, that's too bad. That's the answer I'm giving. Did you think you were going to die in prison? Not as long as I had breath, no. Because I thought it was always a scape. Although a few prison governors did threaten me with that. I said, like, you're going to end up dying in prison. Did you ever see prisoners get killed by these crews? Absolutely. And every single fucking time the crews come out whitewashed. Unbelievable. Clean it up. Belmarsh, where I was with Jimmy, right? They called me off the exercise yard for a moody spin. They called it DST. There were a group of crews that wore paramilitary style uniform, and long-angle boots, and all the patch pockets, all the gizmos, and all fucking muscle bands, and all the steroids doing weight training, all that. I was old, a bit aged pensioner at the time. They called me off the exercise yard for a moody spin. As I've got my sweatshirt halfway up my head, they steamed into me. And they fucking pummeled me for about a quarter of an hour. And you know the sick part about it? The guy that did the worst out, he threw the punch from behind. Can I mention his name? I don't give a fuck if he sues me anyway. I've got a fuck all. His name was Carl Mawrny, muscle band cunt. His face was the poster boy on the anti-violence posters. How sick is that? And now I ended up meeting a couple of women in Rochester prison who were married to a principal officer in Belmont. And the stories they told me about the violence the way he hit her over the head with plates and fucking broke the front of punches and animals. These steroids they take to build up, they affect you a lot of people that make you violent, don't they? Well, that's what I've heard anyway. But this group of animals called the DST, they actually perpetrated the violence. You know, they go up to the prison and just hit him on the chin and when they react, oh, I blow the whistle, press the bell, they'll be all beyond him. It's like, when they've done me that day, they've banged everyone up so nobody can see what's going on. So when I tried to nick him over it, Belmont is the most secure prison in the country. They have the worst of the worst in Belmont. They've got cameras every fucking two-foot. They couldn't pull up one single frame of CCTV footage when I got smashed up. Unbelievable. Did they break anything? No, they tried to. I experienced that sort of, like, rough house and my fitness that I survived. I mean, I was 66 and I think any other 66-year-old, he wouldn't have made it. Why did you do that? Because of my escape from Penneville. It was payback because there was a government in Penneville, a black woman called Jenny Lee. Jenny Lewis of something like that. She met me in Belmont reception. I was banged up in the cell away from the other prisons because I was OK. She's opened the door up. Oh, hello, miss Louis. She said, messy. A lot of people want to kill you. I said, what for? I said, nothing personal. I had to go and see my mum. You wouldn't let me. I got there, I did it. She said, you ruined a lot of lives. Obviously, there was an extreme bad feeling about it. I don't know if the governor got the sack or whatever. Because when I escaped, I escaped during the security audit and that ain't supposed to happen. Obviously, heads had to roll. I said, what if you was doing your fucking job? I wouldn't have done it, wouldn't I? Why have I got it? It's your fault. She's sick the other people want to be. That's my belief anyway. Seeing your first 20 years, did you have anything in your mind that there was a possibility you could have escaped or were you thinking trying to do the 20 years as clean as possible so you can get out? No, no, no. No matter what institution I've ever been in, my first thought is out of get out. To me, it's a natural... I've always said, look, you put any living creature in a cage. What's it do? It fucking circles every inch of that cage looking for a weakness to get out as a natural instinct. Even like salmon swimming upstream. Even a plant, you wouldn't dedicate as having an intelligence. Put it in a dark corner, it will grow towards a light. You can't legislate against human nature, can you? But they want to put pen at least like 10 years in prison if you try to escape or... It just goes against the grain. So your first escape was 20 years later? Yeah. How did you plan that? I managed how I did it, I can't really remember that, but my dad had a stroke and he was in a wheelchair and they allowed me a compassionate escort his visit, which made it easy. So I had some pals where they were waiting to meet me in it. And I spent a month laid down in the flat before I went and got transport in Spain. How did you get in Spain, Carl? Well, originally in power, we had hired these two young pilots to fly me into Belgium, but they were a couple of fuckers over. We had this long drive down at Dover airport and they got this fucking cheap old Cezna. And I looked at it, I thought, fuck it. I don't like planes anyway, but this thing looked like I was able to give it a bane in my eye. As luck would have it, air traffic control come out, I said, listen boys, it's too... Bluster across the channel, we had ripped the wings off the day, we won't be out of line the day. I thought, oh, fuck, fuck that. So now we've got a choice, we've got to drive all the way back to London back to the safe house. I thought I could get next, on the way we could get a pull on the way back, you know. I said, fuck it, go to the pool and get a feel of it, see if you can get by a couple of tickets for the ferry. So I said, ah, that's all right, we'll put you in the boot. I said, fuck, oh, that's the first place I said, look. He said, no, we've done it loads of times. We cut the right over at these pilots, so I think they had five grand needs to fly me, cut the tickets, it's cheap, isn't it? So I went, I was going all right then, but it drives somewhere where no one can see me getting in the boot. But just as there was about to pull away, like the alarms went out, I went, no, no, no. I said, show me your passports, give me your passports. So I put there, and I've got a dodgy man. I put mine in the middle, trying to see if I get any vibes that mine's a bit ify. Felt all right, I said, fuck it, go on, buy three tickets. Anyhow, we got the customs control bit. What's the first things the woman said? Can we have a look in the boot? I said, you better cut us. I've been well next, you know. But it went sweet as luck, got through all right. Where did you go? How did you get in? So we went to Kelly. In the boot? No, no, no normal. Just sitting on one? Yeah. So you're going to go in the boot? Yeah. But you tried it out? I'll take the vibes. Yeah, fuck that. They always like the boot. Exactly, yeah. Do you think they'll try to get you caught? I don't know. I think they're just too green and stupid. On the way to fucking Paris, they try to sell me the car. So what happens then when you get through, you're thinking I'm going to make a new life for myself and try and keep the head down? Are you thinking I'm going to come about a lot? Well, it was kind of impossible with me. Because, you know, what could I do legally? I mean, in a strange country, I've never been out of England ever in my life before. But a power mind set me up with some people that got me to 6th Benjaminville and was like passing up Puff, you know, loading it on my lorries and getting back there. It was a good life. It was good money. How long were you there for? Well, in Spain. Yeah. Well, it was two years free in Poblenos, my brother. I spent the next five years, three years in Spanish prisons. They caught you there? How did they catch you? Oh, it was like deja vu. So it's still very sore for me as well. I had a baby boy by my partner and he died. They called it cold death. I saw it. And anyway, so me and Gilbratt found in that sorrow sort of thing we stopped at this bar in Fingerona. She was obviously upset. I said, look, you go to toilet, clean yourself up. I'll order a drink. So as I've ordered drinks, she had to walk past. The pub was empty. She sat with these three guys sitting in the corner. I actually had gone past them. One of them said, what's the matter, darling? Is that kind of upset you? I thought, I've heard it. I said, I'll take no notes. I said, pricks. And then she said, one of them has come up behind me smashing me in and back there by the stall. Another one has run around the bar and bubbled all the doors. So obviously they've got to lock me in there and shoot me up like a banjo, you know. But they picked the wrong fellow that night. And I left them all on the fucking deck and ended up getting charged with turning the murder. And they attacked me. How long did it take to get extradited? Three years. Did you want to stay in Spain or did you want to go back home? I can absolutely, yeah. Where do you think you're... Actually, I got extradited the same time as my mate Kenny. Kenny know where we got next time there as well. And in the end they ended up putting us in separate prisons, you know. And they come for me at three o'clock in the morning in the Gwadir Sefyl. Fucking machine guns and everything. Type out loud, check it and put me in the back of the car off to the airport. Yeah, they don't fuck up who they are. Do you ever have any hassle in Spanish Jews? They try that if you'd like. Because being a foreigner, you're a bit of a... They consider you prey, don't they? But I put my foot down straight away. And they nickname local English like the manned Englishman. But that's all right. If I had to choose between doing bird ear or in Spain, I'd choose Spain every day. Because you've got that air of hope there. They have a fiercer at the drop of a hat. They have amnises every now and again. Do you not get your messies in as well? Life sentence doesn't exist. Do you not get your blood then as well? You can have conjugal visits yet. Fuck out of that? Yeah. There's no work. You're out in the sunshine all day every day. You've got a little shop built into the wall. What more do you want? How much does alcohol clean your downfall, John? Obviously, it played a great deal. I'm not a heavy drinker by any means. I've very, very drunk more than three pints a month now. But then there was always that. When you're young, you're clubbing it and pubbing it and pissing it all out the wall. If I wouldn't drink it that night, all this would never have happened. I do think of that now and again. That's what it is, isn't it? Yeah. When this other incident happened in Spain with a free guy, and they turned out to be free Englishmen as well. I thought, fuck me, I'll come all this fucking Spain and I'll be free Englishmen. And they tried to claim compensation. All the fuckers, they locked all the doors and they took me out so I couldn't escape. You know, if you've just lost a child and you've actually got a bit of whizz up you and they pressed the wrong buttons, you know. What was it like when you got extradited back? Fucking wrong, yeah. I think I got met here. Oh, Scotland Yard came and got me. I was double-crafted on the plane. Couldn't eat me fucking dinner properly on the plane because of the cuffs. I thought about causing a scene and all that and getting the cuffs off. And we got into Heathrow and they whisked me straight off to Wandsworth. And there I could sense the animosity straight away there. Was that you and bank Catty again? Yeah, Catty and Catty. Did you get an add-on? What was the add-on for that? I don't think I did an extra six or seven years. Was it worth that? Fucking right. I got to see my mum. No one can ever take that away from me. No, as I said before, if you start regretting things and you want to change things, then that means you've got to change everything. Obviously, you can't pick and choose just to change the bad bits, you know, if I've got to accept it all of it or not at all. I wouldn't change anything. You escaped four times, but it was the four times not because of all family issues? Yeah. What was the second time you escaped for? My sister, Carol, elder sister, I got a message. It wasn't what I had class as an escape anyway because I was in open prison. Fould. We were eventually got banned from all open prisons like this woman hill we are. I got a message that she wanted to see me. If you knew my sister Carol, she would have been very out of character she would never ask. So I knew it was serious. She was in intensive care in the Royal Free. So I went straight to the governor asked permission to go and see her. I figured, I mean open prison, you know. I said, well, give me an escort to visit. I don't care. You've got to use six crews. I just need to see her. Sorry, but you can't spare the staff. I thought, fuck you, I'm going. The call was too strong, you know. She died two weeks later. So I wouldn't change anything. No. I got to see her. You got to spend that two weeks later? I never forgot the day my brother died. I didn't get to say goodbye. You know, that's hurt me to this day. 43 years later, 46 years later. So if ever there's a chance. You know, every time you have a phone conversation with a loved one, you always end that conversation by saying, I love you. When you leave the home, you leave the house. All right, see you later. Love you. They may be the last words you'll ever say to them. And if you did do that, and something bad did happen, it pulled you to pieces for the rest of your life. You see what I'm getting at? Yeah. So when you spent your two weeks with your sister, did the coppers know you were there? Did they just leave you alone? That was strange. I did, since there was activity there, but I didn't recognise her around the hospital. I hadn't slept in quietly. But I did... I think I was lucky more than anything. Yeah. So if you're in your open prison, you're supposed to be getting released? Of course. Of course. But how can you not go and see your sister? You're very close to her. Who's dying, basically. To me, that's cool. That's inhumane. Yeah. Which is what happened in the case of my mum, where I had to escape from Penderville. No matter where I'd have been at some, I would have made an attempt wherever it was. This is the third time you escaped? Yeah. I can't remember. So every time you've escaped is to go and see a loved one who was dying? Well, the other one wasn't an escape. I was actually released to a hostel. I was only out three weeks. My dad was dying in Royal Free again. So we were at his bedside. The whole family was at his bedside. And in the event, I was actually the last one my dad spoke to. Everyone was asleep, and I saw him take his last breath. But when I phoned up, the doctor came in to tell us, there's a lot we don't think it does get a last of the next 24 hours. So I did the beautiful thing. I phoned up the hostel. Told him the circumstances. I said, look, I'm staying with the rest of the family by my dad's bedside. He's only got hours left in it. No, Mr Massey. You've got to come back here and observe the 11 o'clock curfew. I think, well, fuck off. But I phoned them. They called me a prison for that. And basically, I'm a 10 stretch. It's not even a crime. I can't wish you off the street for disobeying and all that, can I? Give you a 10 stretch. But again, if you're doing a life sentence. Yeah, because you're a lifetime. I'm on a bit of string. I can yank on that bit of string anytime the light and take you back. Although in my case, I don't think they want me back in a hurry. But it's feasible they can do that. Can you see why you are, though? On a bit of string with them? Yeah, but I think anything short of violence, they'd have a strong time justifying dragging me back to prison. Cos it no matter what you've done, John, you can see you're still a good guy, a loyal one. I've got a heavy heart for you, if you've got a heavy heart you're on your own. You're carrying a lot of pain. I've got a lot of baggage. Sometimes I feel the weight of it is dragging me down. It's like talking to people like yourself. You should give me a little bit of renewed energy. You've been there, you know what it's all about. If other people don't understand, they understand in prison circumstances a programme like porridge. It's so far removed from reality, it's untrue. But you must be one of Britain's longest serving prisoners? Well I was before I was released. But I think now Charlie Boswell has overtaken me now because he's still in there already. How hard is that for you to try and talk about it when you've been in prison for that and missing family time? How hard is that for a man who's spent so long in prison knowing that you're clearly still a family man and you're clearly carrying a lot of regret and pain? But how difficult is it? Because for anybody watching, it's maybe one of the things that's involved in a life of crime. I think they're a bad man. I think you're a prime example that crime doesn't pay. Of course it doesn't pay. One of my good friends, he used to be a bank robber, he was one of the leading members of a London crime family. He said to me a couple of months ago, he said, John, he said, if we were going to work straight all these years instead of going on the pavement, he said we would have saved all that grief and we'd have had more money and we got that, we ever got out of that. Which is true. How's your relationship with Kenny Noy, though? Because Kenny's a high profile name as well. Yeah, I've always seen him be defending his name, Kenny, because I've always found him a nice guy and a gentleman. But all this shit has been brought about him. Because he killed a cousin of that, obviously he's under threat all the time and he's from the other people. But to me, I think he was a nice guy. And I've never known Kenny to be violent, except on defence. And in both cases, where he killed that cousin, he jumped up about a hole in the ground and waked him out of the pistol butt and he stabbed him. You're virtually fine for your own life in them, so it's not murder, is it? The guy, they think they're James Bond, some of these C17 people, when he dug a foxhole in his garden there in Kent, to keep surveillance on him. It was a gold bullion, remember it? Yeah. And Kenny happened to be out in the garden walking the two dogs, who they miss a probably named Bringson Matt. And the dog sensed the guy in the garden and he jumped up about a hole. Well, I don't call that a male, I call that a self-defence. They had the masks on that one as well, did they not? Yeah, he's better clavied up, everything. It's frightening, terrifying situation. You don't know who the fuck he is, do you? He might be coming in, he might be an assassin or whatever. What's the worst present you've been in, John? Armly. Why? I didn't even have to think about it, did I? No. Armly in Leeds, because they beat the fuck out of me there and left me unconscious and left me with amnesia. I got transferred there from Wakefield, where they tried to fit me up with stolen keys. They come and took me out of bed at three o'clock in the morning and me on the pants. Coughed me, slung me on the van, took me to Armly and all I got out of there was you cockney cunt. You know what fucking gangstrap me here, mate? All that shit through the spiral. And they kept a red light on all night. Because I was... I said because I was gay. I was gay in the other gels, they never kept a fucking red light on. And they wouldn't turn it off, I smashed it off the ceiling. And then proceeded to smash the whole fucking cell up. And they said through the spiral, I said, well, we're beginning in the morning, we're fucking breaking your back and all that. I said, well, come on then. And you know, I got as prepared as I could do, but they overwhelmed me. And they chugged me down in a strongbox. But as they chugged me down the stairs, they let in my head at every step on the way fucking down. You know, it was one of their tactics. Anyway, I don't remember much after that. I woke up in a strong... What I knew was a strongbox. It's like a school, it goes under a few names, silent cell. It's like a cell within a cell. Have you ever come across them? No. So you've got to go through one door before you get to another door, which is a cell. What normally is is bare concrete. You've got concrete posts coming out of the floor for your chair or maybe a tree stump or something like that. And you've got concrete slump as your bed. And I woke up in that. And I couldn't remember my own name. It was weird. But I knew I was in prison. So I thought, how can I remember I'm in prison yet not remember my name or how I got here? That's strange. It was really weird. Now, I remember the silence. And I thought, and the silence was so silent, it was deafening, if you know what I mean. It kind of hurt my ears if it's so silent. Just white noise. Yeah, and that's what they'd done to me. Then they put me into another strongbox the next day and I had to run the gullet from the strongbox to the recess to see my pisspot and all that. Where they battered me or going in, coming back. So the worst jail I've ever been in, yeah, amly. I wanted to set up a fucking machine on the outside when I got out and do love them. But that's how much I hated it, they instilled in me, you know. And because I was from London or a Cogli, I said, I really got a treatment. Yeah, because I had someone, Sam Miller, he was an IRA. And they called him the Blanket Boys 10 years every day, getting a beating and he hated them. He says, I think a few of them got murdered, but he wanted more killed. And you can understand why they hate the rage. If you're getting beat up every fucking day and abused and laughed at and tormented and you're going to be full of rage, people's ego get dented if you just bang into them here. Did you ever see that film The Sleepers? Yeah, Brad Pitt, the four young boys. And they come back for revenge. That's the kind of scenario. I mean, I felt that. And in fact, a few of my pals about it talked some strong sense into me, you know. But because I still had that urge to get rickenpence, you know, but no. Get revenge. Yeah, but it's amongst game really. Yeah. So after your 43 years, what was the run-up to getting released, John? Yn anodd yn prysyn? No, cos you never got anodd yn prysyn any more. Did you cos you asked here? No, so I think it was blanket. It was just a new prototype prison. It was a bit of a guinea pig place where it was enclosed, but you had to do get through three stages to be eligible for release. But you couldn't get home leave or any of the privileges you got in a carragheed D prison. So, again, I got other people to fill all the forms in. I used to have to screw come back. Oh, that was very good, John. I thought, yeah, well, I've never fucking done it. You know, it felt like you got to break your own principles to go ahead with it. You know? And it all meant no. It's all sort of cosmetic stuff in actual reality. It was all... It didn't mean a lot, you know? And I actually got one of the fastest releases ever known to a lifer. I've never known anybody get released so quick because I got a proud board coming up. That's why I grew this beard. I first grew this beard. I thought, fuck it. All the other pro balls I've had in the past, they got this young picture of me on the phone and think, oh, he only looks young and fuck it, he can do another 10 straights. You know? I thought this time I'm going in looking old and I'm going in slob in all that. And I got it. I've got parole. So I got a parole on a Monday. Now, you're supposed to wait 15 days before you get an answer. I've got a probable on a Monday. I've got the answer on a Tuesday. I've got kicks out on a fucking Wednesday. Never been known before because even after 15 days waiting for the answer from a probable, then you've got to wait a month or so for probation to set you up with the hospital and all that shit. So I was in and out of three days. I think I became in an embarrassment. I know the MPs were even asking the question why is this man still in prison? I know that Lord Ram's bomb. He did ask that. And ex-prison governors were asking if they were making comments when I escaped. And it was kind of the overall view that they couldn't explain why I've served longer than any terrorist, any multiple fucking child killer, any rapist, paediful lunatic, even a guy convicted of genocide. I've served longer. Why? Basically, I went out for a drink on Friday night and never come over for three years. I never went out to change the world or overthrow the government so why have I served longer than anybody else in England? Why have I become the longest serving prisoner? It didn't make sense. What was it like when you got put on? Yeah, there was a guy that got released, got parole the same time as I did. David fucking McGreevy killed three children he was babysitting for, decapitated them and stuck their heads on spikes on display. How come he did 13 years less than me? How come he's not a danger to the public and I was? Which was always their answer when they knocked me back for parole. I'm a danger to the public. I've never been a danger to the public, ever. What was it like when you got parole? What was that feeling like, John? I still got a picture on my phone the day I got out. My sister and my niece came and picked me up and a family friend and you look at that picture and you can see the pure happiness on my sister and niece's face. It's in my head. It was great. It's a long time. See when you get out did you ever think it was about too fast paced or too much that you were going to do something to have to go back in? No, no. I didn't make the mistake of a lot of prisons over the years. I wasn't content of lying on a bedspunking path and all that. I'm forgetting about it. I wanted to know what's going on in the world. I bought a paper every day religiously for years. I always turned the news on. The old channel for news and I was like a sponge for information all the time about what's going on. So I never got left behind with the progress of the outside world. It's because a million times schools and governors are saying to me you'll find it strange when you get out. John, I mean no. The only thing I find strange is being in prison. That's the unnatural environment for me. Not out of here. So when you get out, your current affairs and politics and what's going on in the rest of the world you're not suffering a culture shock when you come out. What did you do when you got out? Well, a friend of mine gave me a van. A very good friend of mine. And I loved my work. I'm a carpenter. And I started doing a bit of work carpentry. But then I wanted to I wanted to do everything legal. You know, I didn't want anybody to point out or pick me up on anything. So I spent £400 doing the courses to get a CS, a CS card. You know, it's a work card so you can get on building sites and that. And I had this friend who's got a company in Moorgate who had given me all the work I would have had or could have worked seven days a week if I wanted. But it had to be straight, you know. It had to be a bit of cars. And I did a trial I did half a day's work for him. All of a sudden they stopped my pension for three weeks every Christmas period. I'm not allowed to work. And that is one of the grievances I still have to this day because when I was released they declared that I wasn't entitled to a state pension because I haven't paid any stamps all over the years. But when you consider it I'm working for the Queen, right? It's under HMP, innit? I'm fucking sewing mail bags doing menial tasks and cleaning. Why is that not? Working prison is compulsory. If you don't work, you get punished. Why is that not worth a stamp? To entitled to me to a state pension? Can you answer that one? Well that's what it's doing to me. No, still? Yeah, I'm not legally allowed to work unless I want to risk losing my media pension. Which is a pissence. And you want to work? Do you want to work? I want to work, yeah. But obviously I can't maybe do a full time the effects of the stroke I've had I'm getting tired now it's becoming a struggle to talk but you know, a full working physical day I don't know that I'll be able to do that. For people watching a lot of people will offer you work and a lot of people want to do well for you so I'm going to leave a link or some sort of email for yourself that people can be in contact with you I see a lot of goodness in you joining that You're loyal to the fucking world. Let me bring up another I did this job for an American couple near where I live They're very well at do and they wanted some bookcases built from floor and ceiling all the way around the room so it was one of the first jobs that I had since coming home and I thought I have to tell these people my background because I don't want them to find out from somebody else and then freak out so I put before I started work for them, I told them I've just been released in prison I served a life sentence for Mona blah blah blah Well, they left that house with me in there working on my own for the whole day and you can't buy a feeling like that that pleasure that trust they put into me that was the right thing I did was by telling them and they was easier of me from the word go and to this day they're very good friends of mine and they asked me back several times to repair things and that and to me that's that's lovely it boosts me up with us but you can see a lot because if anybody doesn't like where I've been or what I've done they can fuck off I'm not interested in them anyway so I make a point now if anybody's home I go into where I have to do I have to tell them where I'm from and what I'm all about because I don't want them finding out by accident and freaking out making the imagination money and you can understand why some people would freak out as well Oh absolutely that's why I feel the need to tell them See every Christmas and new year did it get easier or did it get harder as the years went on What inside Well one of the things I did obviously affects me now that I'm out and it it confuses a lot of people I have great difficulty remembering dates or times because when I was inside I never used to have a calendar I was aware of the dates for most of the time but Monday through Sunday through Christmas to me it was just one long stretch of time no one day was any special to the other and that made it so easy for me I never got traumatised for anniversaries of someone dying like my sister do I don't because I don't know the dates for all the people I've lost they're in here they're with me forever anyway I don't need a date to remember about it and so time for me was just one big long streak otherwise if you're going to mark off the days easy it becomes an eternity you know you're making things hard for yourself When did you do the programme Was it the mind of a murderer No, it's called What Makes a Murder When did you do the programme What Makes a Murderer Again I can't really say I don't know if it was a year ago or two years ago What was it like They took me on location I think Birmingham University where they did the brain scans It was a scientific programme to discover if there was any difference between my brain pattern and any normal person and apparently I said there was I haven't What was that word? Medulla I said mine is enlarged where it's apparently called into the sciences was a psychopathic straight I I don't really believe a word of it but I can believe that maybe it's a sign that you've suffered trauma because they say that's where your feelings or emotions are based and when traumatised as you say like when I was a child it kind of shuts itself off I don't know he says it grows bigger I don't know it's all gobbled groups because at one point he put six brain scans on the table and asked me to pick one out that had the most psychopathic traits I picked one out it turned out to be his the scientist so he's more a fucking psychopathic than I am What is the psychopathic traits that you don't believe lack of fear you could say you have that one though yeah but I don't attribute that to being a psychopath I attribute that to my brother What is the psychopathic traits though was there many or only a few? well again lack of empathy I think I got it wrong because as I say I was a soppy advert of a chocolate had tears rolling down my cheeks no I feel a lot of empathy I feel a great deal of empathy for what's going on at the moment and in Ukraine it's absolutely fucking horrendous you know and so if lack of empathy was a psychopathic trait that's not me I'm not a psychopath I don't believe I think if you didn't have any empathy I don't think you'd have escaped prison 4 times to go and see family members I can envision given the right circumstances being a selective psychopath you know if someone is fronting my family or was just a plain bad bastard then I could become a lunatic myself anybody good as you said before when you get mothers and fucking lift up a stone mother lift up a car or for a child you know that that's the type of strength it generates it's got to be for the right reasons you must have came across a few mad men though inside but why did they never send you to Broadmoor? because I wasn't mad did they ever try though well actually I got quite worried about that one time during my standing at Parkhurst you had this a psycho doctor called Cooper and I was on his work party they used to call it Cooper's Troopers he had the power to nut you off you know but I didn't realise by being on his party I was under scrutiny so but in the end I found him running round the woods outside so I had the power to start on it he was a fucking lunatic yourself he's probably just saying people were there but that's the type of abuse that went on years ago now it's pretty difficult to get someone putting them in the house but they're one man's signature boss you're off how does it feel talking about your story today your past family members I can feel it's drained me a bit I feel kind of wiped out I gave up trying to write my own book because I got into a certain circumstance where I'm reliving a certain memory it leave me like a wet flannel you know I got the fuck out I can't do that so in the end I've got this guy who works for the cabinet and journal I've dictated it to him and he's written it I've got a powerful book it's a best seller so I've just been accepted for a deal with history books I was at first going to go through Harper and Collins but then the COVID crap here and everything went pear shaped and then the managing director of the editor was off again and then Kelly Ellis she became pregnant and went on maternity leave and he kept dragging on and on and on and then they wrote back and said they wanted this bit rewritten in the first person and then I it's so big to come and they haven't got the courtesy to answer your emails your inquiries and you know where fuck it let's go somewhere else and this guy from history books he's very eager and very keen to write a story which is all I want I want someone who's interested in it not because they want to make money out of it you know What would the John of now say to the 20 year old John from the past if he could give him advice stick to your fucking carpentry leave all the criminality alone you know yeah I have a very strong regret to that I mean Infras and I I actually became a badminton champ for over 40 years and because I remember my asking my dad one day I was interested in playing tennis he said to me what do you want for your birthday son I said tennis racket dad will you give me a cumban and a fucking ear roll and bought me a pair of boxing gloves which was his passion you know boxing and I used to say point to Mackemrow I said look when you just won 150g yeah it was too late now son you know I think under that I don't ever want to criticize my parents or be disloged to them but a lot of the way you grow up is who your parents are and and if they can open up their minds to what makes you tick what your likes dislikes and passions are instead of saying no we want you to be a lawyer we want you to be a doctor we want you to be this dad the other you'd be a success because you have to love what you're doing to be a success for it and I loved holding a racket and a shotgun no no you've had some life John you've had some life I prefer pistols a shotgun but you can clearly see that you're still a good guy as well that all the fuck ups you've done all the mistakes you've done you can still see that you've still got a heart you've still got remorse you've still got empathy yes look you put yourself in prison you've got to take responsibility for that but to the things that you've done even coming on today and every time I've spoke you've been nothing but nice how is it? I mean even my girlfriend's had a guy that makes several times giving money to beggars in the street you know but although a lot of them are scamming and they turned into a business now but some of them are genuine you know and you do feel for them but where do you go for here going forward for the future? I literally don't know it's whatever happens happens you know I just want to try and improve my health a bit more get back to the way I was and live the rest of me in life in peace for anybody that's maybe watching that's maybe thinking about being a bad man or trying to be a gangster I think they're tough I've got no fucking tolerance whatsoever for these wannabe gangsters or carbol gangsters that usually call them it's all meaningless it's all it's all the bad emotions people and vanity and glory just be humble and treat other people the way you want to be treated yourself and because there are a lot of people that turn to crime and they don't know where to join that line never to step below you know you have to have a limit if you are determined to be a criminal put a limit on it you know try and keep it to the rubbing hunt effect rather than making everybody's life a misery and destroying things to the penny of a drop John when you were in prison all the stuff that you had done and you came to a realisation that you did cause a lot of pain or did that take time or did you know instantly no it always came afterwards because was that fucking red mist coming down on you you know after time you've done the damage before you've even realised it it's afterwards and I don't know I mean I've had people look at me and think oh even even now look at that old cunt he's got a great beard he's got a great mug and next thing you know you're looking up down on the fucking deck and say oh I didn't mean it mate it's too fucking late now you know I don't know I don't know what I'm talking about before we finish up on anything John I'd like someone to answer the question why I'm not entitled to a state pension after being forced to work compulsory for 40 years for slave wages yeah so I need to leave a link at an email address where people can contact you if you're supposedly welcome back into the fold when you've paid your debts to society why is it then that I'm ostracised I'm not allowed to say for it I can't go on programmes like who wants a millionaire because of my past history why I've paid my debt you know have you seen recently that certain criminals have won the lottery and there's this big clamour for somebody to want to grab it and deprive them of it and put it towards the victims I think I've been at Buwy's ticket the same money as you've paid why is he not entitled to the winnings so you're never really welcome back you'll always be known as an ex robber an ex killer an ex that you never get accepted by society fully how would you like to be remembered for not giving in I think we'll finish up on that John listen for coming on and then telling your story I thoroughly enjoyed it it's been a mad rollercoaster of emotions in your whole life I couldn't cover all of it in this time you can't cover 43 years of course you can we've got all the bits that people can know your story understand you and for anybody that's maybe wanting help I'll leave an email address that can maybe reach out and try and get you a bit of work maybe try and see what we can do with this pension because there's so many people who watch these programmes that are willing to help people and give people a second chance and see what they can do I've heard a couple of solicitors tentatively venture into it but they all seem to get dismayed by the I think a lot of it goes back to the Factories Act in virtual almost many evil days where prisoners had no rights but those laws should be looked at because now in the 21st century they should be changed John, I wish you all the best for the future God bless you and thanks for giving me your time today thank you John, take care