 Hello Audrey Hello, good local time everyone Also, I'm happy to see you and also Japanese audience are also happy to see you and Welcome to our innovation garden Audrey. So today we're gonna do the interview with you and for for about many kind of themes so as for a quick introduction and Let me let me speak a little bit for this session. So today I would like to call you Audrey and with dear feelings and I'm very happy to see you and Thank you to be here to accept our proposal of interviews. So You are now one of the most famous person in Japan right now especially through your work against COVID-19 in Taiwan and But most of us don't know very much about your deep thought and deep vision or deep philosophy so today I would like to ask you many questions directly and personally and Very with ease and I would pick up many kinds of questions from Japanese audience Audience of viewers to realize true remote dialogue Son, I would like to make this dialogue and something near to transparent one So you love this word. I think and no barriers. No borders. No rules So and let me speak a little bit in Japanese to Japanese audience. Okay It'll Nihono. Nisa a Honjitsu Audrey Tansan guy a to innovation garden to keep itました a to Chocsetsu desu ne hanasu kikai. Well, I'm a lot more a you may not be to know history. That's what we must do a to Nakanakanai kikai desu no de zeki Saito no desu ne commento kinoを使って Audreyさんに聞いてみたいことがあればどんどん Chat to run the comment will you take a side? I knowこちらで訳してお伝えしてお聞きします So let's get it started and first and We will like to hear about the Current situation of COVID-19 in Taiwan in comparison with that of Japan and other countries so There's very many kinds of Items like how is society or government or people's mind, etc So and we will also like to hear about the front line of Taiwan's with Corona with corona action So how can we live with that virus and so how is the situation in Taiwan? Yeah, we have zero new confirmed cases locally Since mid april so it's almost half a year now And we're I guess post corona in many regards We never had a lockdown in the first place, but there were restrictions on large gatherings and these has been lifted We never shut down nightclubs or disco bars But they have reopened after working out the real contact system as well as how to make sure that the physical distancing is helped I guess the only change that you can see on the street Is that people do wear the mask to protect ourselves from our own unwashed hands and we have those Hensanitation sprays handy That's the only change and also the temperature checks, but otherwise life is normal and we are now Of course entering the flu season by the people who sign up for the flu vaccine Is at a historic high so we don't expect actually a flu season either. That's the situation in Taiwan Okay, so the situation is very in peace. I think in taiwan so but um One point your mask is very cute and very well designed. I think yeah So very good design. So is it is it sell so one or it is? It is sold on a e-commerce website called queer guide. I think it's made before the pandemic So cool and so um So I would like to um question about the um The the situation also situation in Taiwan because um today We see many kinds of division and take takes place because um For example division of country or division of society Especially in us et cetera. So um covid-19 brought us not just international solidarity And but also such kind of division and other negative effects So how we can avoid that kind of negative effect? So um and also We think one of the keys is humor humor Because in the covid-19 situation in taiwan you I think you Did many kinds of action with humor. So um, please let us know about your thoughts about it Yeah, I mean who will be against a cute dog And that's the spokes dog or zong chai a shiba inu Of our central epidemic command center and the shiba inu is reminding you Like right now when you're indoor, please keep three shiba inu away from one another If you're outdoor, please keep two And also wear a mask. But why would you wear a mask? Because as I said It protects you from your own unwashed hands Uh when I say it maybe some people listen, but people will not share it However, when the cute dog says it everybody shares it it becomes an idea worth spreading An idea worth spreading is an innovation So this is how we make sure that the social innovation reaches more people who laugh about of course the cute dog You just left too. Uh, and once you left about it, it's literally impossible for you to feel outrage Against physical distancing rules. So because these two pathways in the mind Rage can turn to joy, but joy does not go back to rage. That's the idea The central idea of humor over rumor So that kind of um idea innovative idea using the humor to To to reach and really to the people Is that an idea born from you or from other People it is is it the kind of um thai ones So is it very taiwanese idea or what do you think about it? Yes, uh, we call it the taiwan model Just as we fight the pandemic with no lockdown We fight the infodemic. That's to say that this information crisis with no takedown And I shared very early on in 2017 in our cabinet meeting For truths to spread faster than rumors It need to be structured It need to be open And it need to be fast That is to say if the clarification After each trending rumor is spread within 60 minutes Then even though it starts later than the rumor It catches up having a higher basic transmission rate or the r value Because our value of joy is higher than that of anger But if you publish this like a press release A day after Then people have already Went to sleep with the outrage And sleep as you know form long-term associations And that will actually create A long-term association to the feeling of outrage And so the next day even though it may be really good press release or clarification It will not work anymore. He will just reinforce the bias So 60 minutes at longest two hours. That's very important But I cannot take credit for actually making such comedies This is the credit is entirely in the media and participation offices in each ministry And also our premier our head of the cabinet who have cleared his image For a lot of the humorous responses like this one which was before the pandemic that says Oh, are you going to find people for $1 million for perming their hair multiple times a week? And then he posted his younger photo saying I may be bought now But I will not publish punish people who look like my youth and say what we have done is a label and requirement And although it will not damage your bank account If you purring your hair many times a week, it will damage your hair Just look at the premiere for what will happen to your hair And of course, this is making fun of himself A very good nature of humor and this spread much more fast than the disinformation So this is I think all of government approach and while I have spread the idea The actual memes are done by professionals Yeah, I think that kind of action is very particular in Taiwan and in the in the age of COVID-19 because I can't see any kinds of such action in other countries, but in Taiwan. So So but why do you think why the The humor can overwhelm the anger Well, psychologically, it's very simple because when anger travels on social media Sometimes it seeks revenge. Sometimes it seeks What we call other ring, which is to lower the status of people who are not like us So it is the core of division. It's the other ring blaming the disease or blaming the infodemic On people who look different from us believe in different religions Belong to different ethnicities and so on and so While this kind of outrage can hurt the society If we ask a very simple question How can we prevent something that's this outrageous? From happening again Then that channels the energy into co creation So you can see the funny pictures that we roll out Or contain the scientific fact or the legal fact or some sort of evidence that shows The things that you're worrying about it will not happen again And that channels people's energy Toward joy and this is a one-way street. It does not go back So clear. Thank you and I I also want to hear you about the This kind of remote remote experience because Today we are now doing this kind of remote interview. So naturally So um, we get used to this technology gradually I think And Audrey you are I think one of the pioneers of this kind of Remote technology because you did some VR meetings with children by using other avatars before this Today's COVID situation. So, um, what do you think about this kind of co existing experience? So what is the true potential of this remote technology? Oh, you have oculus glass. Yes My point About co presence Is not about replacing The act of actually sharing the same space Rather, it is about amplifying The idea of listening Deeply one to another But scale it so it works across space differences and also time differences While the time zone difference between you and I is small you're just one hour in the future There are many places on us that are in very different time zones And when we make a meeting for example over um, this telepresence screen We immediately feel we are in different places because we cannot talk about weather I can say, you know, um, good morning. And for the other side of us, they're going to bed I can say, you know, it feels very warm and while they are actually in the deep winter And so something that is visceral about people to people interaction is lost When you connect people only through the two dimensional glass So one of the main point of a co presence Even just spending time in virtual reality in a shared way a shared reality for just five minutes It's very very useful to re establish what we call report that is to say A psychological supporting relationship But of course it doesn't need to be br We can also pre agree to drink the same tea or to listen to the same music Or to share the same slice of pizza and so on But the point is that we need to settle our mind and body Into a shared experience before the knowledge exchange But I think we don't have that much a problem here because we're just one hour apart Yeah between you and me. Yeah, that's true and so um So with this kind of um remote one or a shared reality technology Um, how can our communication change in our future? What what's your opinion about it? I think there are two kinds of changes and that's across space and across time previously When we want to have this kind of almost immediate Tell the presence like when you're nodding. I know you're nodding. The latency is very low Both of us need essentially to be in buildings Or in a place with good wi-fi reception from a building because previously for g Technology does not have this low latency So it has to be fiber optics or at most some wi-fi and I'm not sure about the wi-fi I'm connecting through ethernet right now. However with 5g technology Even in outdoor spaces, even in the mountains or near the shores You can share your surroundings With me in almost real time and even music players can jam their music together Even if they are in different outdoor spaces So that opens up our immediate environment to the outdoors and that is what 5g brings us I've been using 5g for many months now. It's truly liberating my other VR has said the xr space has built in 5g Antenna and so I bring it with me all the time to outdoor places The other thing is across time because when we are having this conversation We're also taking like real-time input from the audience They may actually join in the middle of the conversation And if it's a real-time face-to-face conference People who join in the middle of a conversation Probably will not raise their hand and ask a question But because this is across the screens and people can Go back and replace certain Elements or to see the captions and so on it allows people to get back to the context Within a short time frame and ask relevant questions So it compresses time and if I speak too fast Well, you can replay me many times and ask me questions afterwards So it makes each meeting a logical continuation of another one Expanding is for each two more people. So that's another change. We're much more closer to strangers now Yeah, your vision is very interesting for us So And another question about About innovation because our even title is innovation garden and foods Objectives to Realize or to realize Japanese innovation and get it to the world So From from this part, I would like to talk about three innovations like Community innovation and open innovation and social innovation. So first We want to talk about community innovation because You may think the role of community is very important for innovation because you say When when we see the machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning And so you've you've also experienced many hacker communities and may be affected by That that kind of experience. So please let us know what you've learned from that experience Yeah, I have published a article many years ago with the title lessons learned from open source communities And I think the main thing that I learned from the open source community Is the idea of optimizing for fun Optimizing for fun may seem counter intuitive because people join community ostensibly not to have fun but rather to make things together Because what you see is what you get what you make is what you learn, right? But having fun is actually very important because without fun All the motivation is extrinsic Meaning that if you make things and it doesn't work We feel a frustration If we make things and then it doesn't spread we feel frustration So if you put your motivation to things beyond yourself beyond your community's control Then chances are you will burn out because innovations take a while to take root And it takes a while from grassroots to spread like dandelions And so the way to keep motivated throughout a long time The secret of that community is to enjoy the process is to have fun and this intrinsic motivation of curiosity of enjoying the solidarity and also to create something of common value Even though the world does not know it yet That is like the pleasure the fun the joy of creation and that sustains people over a very long time And so I think fun is what ties community together What kind of fun did you get from your past experience? Yeah, I think there's many kinds of fun Some people find that having a stable support Of people who celebrate your failure if you share it publicly. That's a lot of fun A safe space when you can say and share the most crazy ideas And other people say oh, I see something feasible in it. That's a lot of fun Unconstrained activities is fun too in the internet. We say You ask not for permission But for forgiveness that means that when you innovate you don't have to ask the people who already innovated before you the worldwide web did not ask permission from ftp the BitTorrent does not ask for permission from the world web I'm sure that a bitcoin didn't ask anyone's permission and aetherian did not ask bitcoin's permission either And so that is a lot of fun Yeah, I think your philosophy of openness and transparency is also very Driven from the kind of experience Yes So um So I would like to ask you another question about community because you've talked about a lot Uh about a lot about um co-creation So in community so uh, what is uh, what is the role of the kind of co-creation for innovation? Yeah, um, there are innovation that appear in almost a perfect form and only to be replicated And those are more like industrial innovations the kind you see on the patent registry On the other hand, there are open innovations that appear in a very fragile form like the initial wikipedia article It is actually not very possible not very plausible when the people see the first few pages of wikipedia That it will even get anywhere So the improbability Of its success is what draws people to it. There is a saying I often quote from leona coan There is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in So open innovation is like opening up a crack Saying oh, I don't know how to make this work Please help me and then people came and form a community together The best open innovations are like that if you don't like a wikipedia article, you are invited to click edit Yeah, so uh, I'm very interested in your opinion about the kind of open innovation Because the next topic is about that. So, um Today, uh in japan open innovation is uh, one of the most needed one So, um, because there are many kinds of wall like an closed community or a rigid Organization or limited laws, etc But I think you are now doing a very great open innovation now in the government And which is what we call open? Government so, uh, why uh, do you uh, can you do that kind of open government action? Like um, coven in the in the condition of coven 19 Yeah I will share one story, uh about coven 19. That's not that much about transparency, but about trust and participation There has been a case when a worker in an intimate drinking bar She was diagnosed with coven 19 But on the day one of contact tracing she did not tell that she is a professional worker in the intimate bar Only on the second day that she said that she works, uh in such a place, uh in a nightlife Now we understand of course that Employees in such places are sensitive to privacy But in terms of pandemic prevention if contact tracing doesn't work it engages everybody So the government at that point has the entire social mandate To shut down such businesses to force them to clips, but we did not Because we understand such measures Reinforce the stigma that a society attached to such worker already And they will go underground Like the prohibition era in the u.s. And that actually make the epidemic even worse So we didn't say anything about shut down. We said instead that Given The work that a central epidemic command center's expert had Working with hiv positive communities They said All we need is a real contact system as long as people could be contacted The central government doesn't want to know who they are And we also explained why droplet infection need to be prevented And so it's an open invitation for the nightlife businesses to innovate in the open In order to stay open So they did innovate And for example, they invented such scratch pads that are shredded after two or four weeks Leaving only code names single use emails prepaid mobile phone numbers Plastic hats with plastic shielding that maintain social distancing And when even night clubs can join the fight in the team of 24 million and they did open The prevention efforts garnered a lot more trust worthiness within the society So it's a small story about open innovation There's some transparency in terms of the real contact system But far more than transparency is this accountability that is voluntarily shared by the society How can we realize that kind of social trust and which is also the transparency you mean So how how can we realize that kind of Trust in our society. Is there any kind of solution Yeah, definitely first of all a quick honest response is always essential Because when people understand That the public servants are competent and they communicate in a real-time way For example in our CECC. It's a press conference every 24 hours for the duration of the pandemic in Taiwan And also important is to offer sincere apology When we did something wrong And that is again gaining trust worthiness One example a quick example So maybe you have heard of the musk availability map that we introduced around early February But maybe you did not know that in the very beginning Many pharmacists Who invent their own system like take a number in exchange for the national health card Which they tell the customer to go back and collect a map earlier Then the close time so maybe by 6 p.m. Or 7 p.m So they will collect the cards on 7 a.m And then once people go off work collect the musk at 7 p.m While they swipe the ic card in the pharmacist side Like during lunch or something and that arrangement makes the musk map useless Against such pharmacies because the real-time availability does not reflect the actual stock So much so that a pharmacist Working with taken number systems even wrote on their front door. Don't trust the app So what's important for us is that we need to apologize to those pharmacists Recognizing that their inventiveness is what's worth spreading and revise our system immediately the next week offering the opening hours And also later on offer the pharmacist a button that they can push and disappear from the map And so it's better than a perfect system because it's co-creation It reflects accurately the innovation that the pharmacist invented on the ground So even though it took like three weeks to adjust the system It's actually garnering even more trust with the citizens by essentially Apologizing quickly and then fix it the very next day or at latest the next week Yeah, um that kind of immediate interaction between government and the enterprise and Civil civil is very important. I think So, um the next question is about social innovation because um You've been trying to generate and create social innovation. For example in the social innovation lab. You created And so what do you think about the role of social innovation in our society? What do you support that kind of social enterprise? Social innovation simply put is that it's everyone's business with everyone's help So anyone can be a social innovator if you work toward a common purpose For example, the mask map was a social innovation because it's done by Howard Wu a civic technologist in tainan to solve a simple issue Which is people don't know where they should queue for masks for example, that Traditional rice cooker right there that you can see is a symbol of social innovation Because there was a professor leitren yu who discovered that you can put the mask Into that rice cooker don't add water and heat it To 110 Celsius It kills the virus, but then it cools down very quickly So it doesn't destroy the fabric And so this is a social innovation because it's not industrial I'm sure the rice cooker manufacturer did not have that use case in mind It is appropriating an existing technology toward a new common purpose in this case public health need in very surprising and counter intuitive but our Food and drug administration replicated the experiment and the cecc invited Professor lie to the daily press conference to explain the theory While minister Chen our commander actually cooked a surgical mask in the rice cooker and put it on his face And now of course we're learning from peer reviewed journals internationally that this works even for n 95 Masks and so that's social innovation Imagine if all innovation have to come from manufacturers Well, I don't think the rice cooker manufacturer will think of that Yeah, so I think you believe in the people's imagination and creativity About the social innovation So, um, please let us know more in detail what you've been trying to attract in social innovation lab because I think that is a kind of Lab where many kinds of innovation took place in Taiwan Definitely. So, um, this is the lab Wow It's a park We tore down all the walls so you can walk in And then have 40 minutes of my time if you agree to be on the record And this public art is driven by a social entrepreneur Um, the team is called A good and they work with people with down syndrome with trisement differences Who look at the world like van Gogh? In very like innovative Ways and they draw what they see and it becomes the social innovation labs public art So the result is that when people step into the lab, they become very creative for example when sit in a crib the mayor of Prague in Czech Republic visited his team the city cabinet Immediately gets so inspired that they climbed upon this public art It's not designed for climbing by the way, uh, but the structure holds So we don't have a diplomatic incident But uh, this is important because When people show up with new innovations It could be a technological innovation like self-driving vehicles But then it's made social by people looking at not just the digitization part But also how the innovation can be governed in a inclusive way So the last digit the last letter is inclusion Including people who previously have no idea how self-driving vehicles work Into shaping the norm of such vehicles so that they feel comfortable Traveling in it and so on and so the norm building is what's happening in the social innovation lab And that's built effective partnerships Also in the social innovation lab every year We give five awards to the five teams in the presidential hackathon Out of more than 200 teams each working on one or more of the sustainable development targets And each team receive a trophy from our president that's shaped like Taiwan And with a projector if you turn on the projector What it does is that it projects dr. Tsai Ing-wen our president Handing you the trophy so the trophy describes itself and the president promises Whatever you did as social innovation in the past three months Will become public policy nationally in the next 12 months And so we will secure the budget the personnel and so on And also make regulation adjustments if needed be to enable the presidential hackathon winning teams And it's been three years now So we have 15 teams working on the sustainable goals in very innovative ways Including telemedicine Including a pokemon go like game that invites people to refill their bottles Including this push notification Heat damage to people who could suffer from high degree of heat and so on and so forth Yeah, I'm very I'm very surprised to see The what is the taiwanese innovation culture and it and how it is born from that labs so I would like to Ask you about that kind of innovation culture in taiwan So What what is the character of taiwanese innovation do you think? Yeah, it's written here actually It's too small for you to see but this is a sustainable development goals and then with this small print after it that says and I quote taiwan can help and this is uh, I think what's the most important thing in the taiwanese innovation culture out here is the emblem And then the idea very simply put is that we're not in this To compete We're in this to help and it does not matter whether our innovations get used In other countries. In fact, we encourage other countries to adapt our innovations Not because we want taiwan to be an exporter of innovation But because we truly believe that this helps people and so the made in taiwan Used to mean products. Nowadays it increasingly means services But nowadays and especially after coated it means the taiwan model. It is a system of innovation That does not sacrifice the economy for public health or sacrifice public health for the economy Rather, this is about taking both and deepening the democracy Underneath and that's the taiwan model that we're sharing and it's with this sharing spirit that we offer our innovations Why do you think that kind of taiwanese innovation culture was born in taiwan and why That kind of taiwan model was born even especially after coven 19 I think Japan of all countries can relate Because anytime a disaster happens not necessarily pandemic like in sars in 2003 It could be like a earthquake, which japan has plenty in taiwan too Like typhoons And so on so every time when the society recovers the entire social sector Grows a little bit by offering to help one another Actually the innovation line from japan came from such a disaster And so it proves to people who ordinarily would work on industrial innovation Whenever there is a disaster They can take whatever they learned in the industry and contribute to the society and the society encourages that So I think it is the endless stream Of typhoons and earthquakes and sars 1.0 now 2.0 That brings the society together on this taiwan can help model of innovation and of resilience I'm sure that the japanese people can see this point of view Yeah, i'm totally agree with you and i I love that Taiwan is culture Which says taiwan can help you so which which means interactive help Mind I think so I would like to ask you about also The gender the gender and innovation relationship because In japan sometimes gender gender balance can be controversial in business and innovation field. So What how can we improve this problem? Yeah, I think what's important to realize here Is that it's not just about diversity It is about intersectionality Meaning that each of us Not necessarily in gender, but is minority in some regard Like when I learned to write I write with my left hand I would later learn that my father and his mother my grandma Was all left-handed But back in their days They were forced to conform and learn to write with their right hand because well, that's the right thing to do But in my time fortunately it only Uh continue for one year because on the second grade I encounter personal computers And then the mouse doesn't care whether it's left or right-handed you can swap the left and right buttons very easily with a configuration and so this shows That if people ask other people to conform Then you lose the perspective that a Universal design would bring to the table It's only if like a mouse and keyboard and smartphones that it's Doesn't care which handedness you are on well keyboard works better if you're and by dexterous actually Then it opens up new possibilities I use this example to show that gender is just one aspect of many so I personally went through two puberty's so in my mind Everyone all the homo sapiens Is my community I don't have this binary thinking in my mind that only sees half of population as on my side In other words, I'm more able to take all the sides But it doesn't have to be gender. It could be learning a transcultural view Using a new language and so on so try to think intersectionally Try to take all the sides It gets easier the first few moves you make in a transcultural fashion And then you will also be able to think the entire human community as your community I think you are the symbol of the kind of intersectionality right now so I would like to ask The last question from my side and after that I will pick up some comments from Japanese viewers. So So the title is where do you go next so We want to know about your next vision for our future and your interest And for the the next word. So please let us know about your vision Yes For taiwan Every year we go up By two or three centimeters uh, the tip of taiwan the yushan mountain or saviyah or pentagon According to different indigenous traditions Grows because we're caught between the duration played on one side And the philippine sea played on the other when they bump into each other we get earthquakes And we learn to be resilient Not only in our buildings but in our minds So when the mountain grows by two centimeters or three every year It's a symbol of the growth of not a left wing Not a right wing by a up wing movement That sees the common values of sustainability and inclusion To the different positions of a more socialist position or a more liberal position Both actually care a lot about leaving the world a better place than you Arrive to it. So that's sustainability and that's where we're going in the next decade by year 2030 We will meet all the sdg targets Yeah, very clear and I hope that Resilience can be true in the future So I will pick up some comments from japanese viewers because there are a lot of comments. So One is in english so kuju Tell us about the change and the kovat 19 has made in education in taiwan Definitely So one big change Is that the young people? Do not show off anymore It used to be before the uh pandemic people would show off Their status symbols their privileges and so on on instagram or other social media That's not cool anymore when people are suffering. It's not cool to show off It is cool to show how you contributed How much you care, but it's not cool to show your of a higher social status That really changed the education because previously educators were working with the kind of Dragging rights of an individual to individual competition But now because that's not cool anymore the educator need to focus Problem solving as a group problem-based learning social responsibilities as capstone projects and so on and that's a real big change The other change of course is this telecommunication facility We never had a lockdown, but we did limit large gathering So people learned to be gathering in small groups like 10 or 20 people But connect many of those groups together into a larger virtual physical hybrid classroom And that's going to stick with us too Okay, so cool. Maybe uh the innovative Children will be born from the kind of educational revolution So um, we got a question from our 11 years Old 11 years old girl Maybe she joined this event with her parents, maybe so and she Won she want to be able to contribute to innovation? Wow So there are people in japan who want to innovate So do you think there is something that that can be done in cooperation? Maybe definitely Yeah, you can start your own hashtag Or you can join one of the existing SDG hashtags from goal one to goal 17 Depending on what you like when we had a hashtag Uh about banning plastic straws for our national identity drink the bubble tea It was started by a pseudonymous petitioner We only know the petitioner as and I quote. I love elephants and elephants love me unquote We don't know where they're coming from. We know more than 5000 people joined their cause very quickly And so when we meet them face to face Well, she is barely 16 years old And when we ask her why are you starting such a movement? Do you like reta sunbuck? She is like no, it's our civics class assignment Wow, so her civics teacher just told the class to find something and start a movement and start a petition And that's great. We actually banned plastic straws now for indoor drinking and soon for outdoor taking out too We now work with organic materials carbon neutral materials Actually, the dress that you see me wearing today is made out of the coffee bean waste and recycled plastic bottles 100 percent And so that become fashionable in taiwan So I think it takes a very young mind Not trapped in the linear thinking of the industrial era To start a movement like that or to join a movement like that and 11 years old is just the right age Very strong word and maybe your word can encourage her to be innovative So we got this message. So how do you manage various and vast range of innovative ideas from citizens in taiwan? I'm very curious about how to keep the speed and hot and great idea are being chosen among those to make taiwan better Yeah, the presidential hackathon Because it expands toward all the 17 SDGs It's impossible for a jury for a judging panel to be an expert in all 169 targets So we used collective intelligence We asked people to vote But instead of the bad old days of one person one vote, which is very few bits of information We use a new invention called quadratic voting or qb In quadratic voting what we do is that we give everybody 99 points And they can look at all the 200 or so teams And if they vote one vote That costs them one point But if they want to vote two that's four point three votes will cost you nine So you can do the math given 99 points So most you can do to support one project is just nine votes Which costs 81 points and you still have 18 left people don't want to squander the votes So they find some other project Maybe to vote four votes which cost 16 So they have two left and they will be motivated to find two other projects only to find Oh, they have a synergy So maybe they take some of the points back and do a seven and seven and so on The design is such that the marginal cost of each vote is the same as the marginal return So there's no strategic voting the strategic voting is just to vote as much as you truly want And then combined it builds much more synergy between the curated teams than any panel of judges ever could So democracy voting is also a technology and it's a social innovation that you could improve to Thank you. And we got a question about humor so in japan in japanese society the stump is is one of the Existing culture because we need always a stump to make confirmation in in the government and the city and in the Official announcement, etc. So but in our situation of COVID-19, it's very hard to put the stump on directly right now, but Our our society can't change our this convention so With humor, what can you change? this A little bit old convention to the new one. So that question is coming from japanese viewers Yeah, I love handwriting But I don't do it on paper. I do this on the glass surface so This is kept But the paper not necessarily The stump you can keep it But not necessarily the seal Or if it is the seal it could be a multi-touch seal that you can apply on a test free So innovate the idea of a seal or a stump image being important has a psychological benefit to it And when we redesigned the national palace museum ticketing experience We find that the elderly they love to Use the stamps On the ticket as a memory like a bookmark that they did visit and they can share it with the family If you do a paperless version of qr code ticketing They would not use it But then we designed such If they use the qr code Actually that qr code after they entered the museum Instead of queuing outside Can be redeemed into a receipt that's even more beautiful than the paper ticket It's personalized has a seal on it And but it's laser printed of course and then the qr code they can take home and when their grandchildren scan it Whatever they saw in the national palace museum becomes objects in the animal crossing island That they're to grandchildren's play and so this is intergenerational solidarity Steal through paper But not ink anymore. It's laser printed So think of creative combinations and then it will be fun I mean animal crossing is a lot of fun and so connected with something that is truly fun And we'll make the elders happy too Yeah, very great idea. Thank you for that kind of great idea for us So the time is So, uh, we got another question. Um, how uh in japan now the digitalization Is a little bit in late and we we can't uh, we didn't Realize the total digitalization in our society. So, um, how We can can we create a good society with the kind of digitalization in in japan Well, it's like learning to program The later you start the easier it becomes So, um, like you start late is is just fine My point here is that it's a japanese government's idea actually That if industry is at 4.0 The society is at 5.0 So digitalization is a bridge to work with the industrial automation and so on But with the social purpose of assistive technology and so on If the society 5.0 can lead the vision of industry 4.0 Then you may start late, but actually you will get to the destination quicker If you think the industry rather Dictates what the society should do then you may start early But maybe you run into the opposite direction and the such disruptive innovations actually create chaos And negative externalities in the society So work with the social sector Make sure that the social 5.0 vision leads the industry and the digitalization will not go wrong Thank you for your clear, um answer. So the time is up. So thank you for You're joining our interview and our innovation garden and So I will and all japanese viewers Can maybe happy to see you and Communicate with you directly. Thank you so much. Audrey Arigato bezaimashita and live long and prosper. Thank you so much See you next time You