 You're welcome back. We were talking about what policy the CBN has brought about the maximum withdrawals that can be done per day and per week and even per month as the case may be. But we also would like you to know that since this week has been a very, very interesting week, we had some personalities that came here that if we have time we are going to do a sort of recap, maybe bring you some of the governorship candidates that are contesting in Lagos and elsewhere for you to hear what they said in case you missed it. That is if we will have the time to do that. In the meantime, we did promise you that we are going to be joined by Abdul Qadir Habib. In fact, I think when I was introducing him I called him Abdul Razak. That was so wrong. So his name is Abdul Qadir Habib. He is an entrepreneur and an environmental activist. Mr Habib, welcome to the program. Thank you and good morning. Okay. So many people have been talking and reacting to these pegs that the CBN has brought for withdrawals of money. As an entrepreneur I want to hear how you feel about it, how it is going to affect businesses like the ones that you run. Okay. When the CBN announced the policy, at the first instance I was like indifferent because these policies basically they have been existing in one form or the other and people like us have been trying to minimize our use of cash because of the ease of transacting online and other channels like that. But on a deep dive and after listening to a lot of people we realized that there are a lot of merits in the long term. But there are a few demerits in the short term. So for entrepreneurs you have to be adjustment because there is a very short term for the implementation. So like with every change it is going to hit us, it is going to hit people, it is going to hit businesses hard. But then you have to adjust, you have to go back to the drawing board and recalibrate. Because when you look at it critically you know that this policy is good for the country in the long run. Because money being in the financial system, doing transactions with trails is very good for national security as well. Because when you transfer through this medium and these channels, it always leaves trail. That is why there is a popular magazine that says follow the money. Once you are able to trail every transaction it is possible to track almost any kind of crimes committed using funds. Okay, can we go into specifics of how it is going to impact the businesses? Because I did hear from the governor of the central bank that they are not going to be very rigid. They will revise this policy from time to time to see how it works for the good of the people. So maybe some of these problems they may not have known it and it could be part of the things they will be looking at when they are revising or if they need to revise this policy even before it starts. So give us some specifics that you think will impact the businesses that you do. Because the general theme is going to hit us, is going to be very hard for us for some time and all that. We need to know what specifically it will do to businesses. Okay, to answer your question, for my kind of businesses there is almost no impact because we hardly run on cash. But for other businesses that are small, there are a lot of businesses that rely on cash and they cannot go digital right now. Then there are going to be problems because so many clients will not be able to withdraw enough cash to pay for the services or goods. So I don't know. I believe a lot of businesses are going to lose patronage which is going to affect their bottom line. But specifically in my own kind of business there is hardly any ill effect on us. Interesting. Okay, how would you rate? Mr. Abdukadi, okay, so go ahead. Okay, let me just come, let me leave it to you, Bayo. Let me leave it to you, Bayo. No, I wanted to thank Yamgoo. I wanted to pick up on what Abdukadi said which is he made a distinction between two types of businesses. And he said his kind of businesses would definitely not be negatively impacted. But then he made a very good point that there are a lot of small businesses that depend on cash transactions. And the question that I would like him to answer is, does he think that right from when the CBN began promoting the cashless environment, cashless philosophy, does he think that government, maybe through the National Orientation Agency, has done enough to prepare the minds of people to do this complete conversion? If I just add quickly, you know, I was very small when we changed from driving on the left to driving on the right. And even in primary schools, we all knew Nigeria was going to be driving on the right because there was a massive campaign, you know. And even in the times of Bandida and we've seen when Jerry Ghana was, I think, MAMSA, you know, I've forgotten the full acronym, what it means now, I think whatever. But MAMSA was some sort of orientation agency. So do you think government has done enough to prepare people's minds to the extent now where they will say this CBN policy is maybe taking them by surprise? No, government has not done enough at all. Because these kind of policies, you are supposed to enlighten people, show them how it benefits their businesses, how it benefits them. But there's nothing like that. There is no orientation. And even to make matters worse, when you do transactions and you have problems, banks are not helpful in resolving these kind of problems, which further push people away from using these channels. When you have dispense error or you have certain things like that, banks take months, weeks, sometimes you even just forget the money and leave it with them. That is discouraging for small businesses and even individuals. Another aspect is so much levies and tax being inserted into online transactions. Now I don't even know how many. When you make a simple transfer of 5,000, you get like three alerts. The money, there's one VAT, there's one 25 NERA, I don't even know how much. So all these things are very discouraging and there are some of the reasons why people are not trusting of these kind of things. So to be honest with you, government failed in its duty to sanitize people, to encourage them to use these mediums. So truly this policy came as a shock to most people because it is just like punishing a lot of small business holders and individuals. Because this system you put in place on people are so adverse to it because it is detrimental to them. You've not been able to create an atmosphere whereby they would trust it, whereby their questions will be asked. National Orientation Agency to say the least is ineffective for a long time now. So before CBN will roll out these kind of policies, they should have been engaging with people, not only from National Orientation Agency angle, even from the local angle, sending agents to sanitize people, to give them, to explain to them why this has to happen and how they will be protected in all of this. So now the government failed in its duty to the people on this. Just a quick follow-up for you, you mentioned something very important now. Talking about small businesses and the various regimes of levies or fees that attend upon digital transactions. And I was wondering if a small business is making 30 Naira on an item and then there's a digital payment and you have to pay 25 Naira and then you have to pay 1.0 something for that. The profit is gone, no? Yes, you're right. The profit is gone. So I don't know how you want to explain it to a business owner now that it should sacrifice its profit because you want Nigeria to move to the cashless economy. Normally when you want to promote this type of policies, you are supposed to give incentives. You are supposed to make it at almost no cost to businesses to incentivize even if you cannot add something as incentive on top. They are not supposed to be losing their hard-earned money paying all these levies. So I think I may have to sit down and critically look at how they are going to negatively impact small businesses before we even get to the aspect of infrastructure in our rural areas because so many rural areas cannot even support this. When there is no network, how can you do transfer? Where there is no network, how there is no electricity, how do you charge the device? How do you charge the POS devices? So there is a lot of tension for government to answer on how they see this policy working. But to be honest with you, this policy is going to kill a lot of small businesses or at least affect their profit and sustainability. So the ease of doing business that you have been clamoring for and the government have been promoting, even if it was existing, this might just kill it. Okay, let's just look at the banking system in its entirety. Do you have any confidence in the banking system that more will be done to make sure that the people who are supposed to invest in the banks or to save in the banks and all that are going to be protected? How would you describe the banking system in the first place? Have they reached where they should reach? Or are there things that they need to do to make that sector better and to the advantage of the people? It is sad to say that I think in the last two years, our banks have actually regressed. We used to, so many transactions that you could do in the past, seamlessly, now there are a lot of problems, you cannot do it. So I believe our banking system has actually regressed from where it was and I don't have enough confidence in them that they will be able to protect their customers when this policy kicks in because most many of the banks are even reducing their branches and branches are usually where you go to resolve transaction issues. When you phone their hotlines to complain or give them your information about what you need to be done, you might be kept waiting for two hours and it is not toll free. So I don't have the confidence that they are yet where they should be for this policy to work. The banking system, unless first by the operator, by the regulator, that is the CBN are not ready for this and they are not even protective of customers enough. In the last six months, we have so much from different banks where customers money will be withdrawn without OTP. While the customer has his phone, his ATM card, everything protected and the banks are not able to resolve the issues appropriately. So anybody that tells you they have high confidence in our banks to actually pull this off, I think they are in la la land. I don't believe they are ready for this, infrastructure wise, manpower wise and technically speaking. In the rural areas, many of the banks have closed their branches. How do you expect rural people, some of them only believe when they take their money to the bank physically. So how do you expect them to deposit? How do you expect them to complain and get their issues resolved? So I believe the NCC, which is the regulator for the security infrastructure and the CBN, who is the regulator for the banking system needs to hold the banks to task and ensure that they improve on their customer service, protection of customers money and everything that is required to make this policy a success. But for now, no, I'm not confident that they are able. So what if the central bank does not do what you're proposing now? They seem to be like bedfellows with the commercial banks. So if it is profiting the commercial banks and they are working hand in hand and they fail to do it, is there anything that the business community itself can do to make sure that the government meets them maybe halfway? Well, yes, I believe the organized business community. I'm talking of the real big dogs in the business community. We can engage the banking owner, the bank owners. We can engage people in different strata that are connected to the banks and engage government on how they believe the business community and consumers need strong protection and customer service, which is for now wishful thinking because I don't know who will convince such type of things at this time we are in where everything that is on the front burner is politics. So I think the business community needs leaders to stand up now and speak up for them, engage government, engage the banking sector, engage the CBN to ensure that the small business holders and individuals on the lower and middle strata are not strangled by the inefficiencies of the banks and the quick-fire policy by the CBN. If I... Okay, sorry. I just wanted to quickly follow up because Avocado mentioned again two key things. I mean, from what he said, two key issues come up. One is consumer protection. And I believe there's a consumer protection agency, but it's interesting again to... but I may be wrong, but I seem to think this consumer protection agency has been quiet for some time. There was a period when it was very vocal in the aviation sector because of so many things happening, delaying flight cancellation, passengers just being stranded. But I didn't hear anything else. So what exactly is that consumer protection agency supposed to be doing now after category? And I want to tie to that. There's a double barrier question as they say in Nigeria. Customer service of the banks. Banks are supposed to have a customer service, but you are absolutely correct. I mean, even those who are just normal bank customers who don't do business, if you do a normal transaction, you pay and the business tells you there's a problem but you're bound to resolve it, to reverse it. And like you rightly said, there's a big problem there. So the customer services in banks, what exactly are they doing? And then the consumer protection agency, what has he been doing? And have you benefited in any way from the work of the consumer protection agency? Thank you. The consumer protection agency, I believe two years back, in the last two years, there was a time where it was very vocal and very active. Both in the aviation sector and even in some other sectors where people have reported massively about wrong doings going on there. I remember there was a restaurant, a Chinese restaurant in Lagos that was not allowing Nigerians, they were not allowing Nigerian customers to patronize them and such issues like that. They were very active at that time. But in the last few months, I don't know, I think they've gone cold, but also in the last one year, there was a time I had issue with the bank. I had a transaction error. I was not paid the money by the ATM and I was debited. So I reported to the bank and they said they promised two weeks to resolve it. It was not resolved. Then I e-mailed. I went to the consumer protection agency's website. There's a form you can feel for such and I filled it. After filling it, then I saw a post on social media about somebody mentioning what consumer agency did for them and there was a number there. So I took the number and also conducted the number. Let me just say my issue was resolved, but I could not be certain whether it was resolved because I filled the form on their website or because I followed up through another channel. But on social media, I saw a bit of feedback about people getting their issues resolved. But on the banking sector, I have so much complaints that if the consumer protection agency wants to only face banking issues, I think they will have their hands full because there's so much, so much complaints from customers, businesses. And the banks, when you go there, the customer agents are always swamped. Sometimes you pity them. The banks are not having enough manpower in those departments. That is one of Achilles' heels. They are not recruiting enough and sometimes they recruit people that don't even understand their own system. When you lay complaint as you are talking, this person doesn't even know what you are talking about. How their system works. Oh, okay, this is a problem. Okay, fill this form. But no, sometimes they don't even know what to do. So both of you will just be confused and looking at each other. So I think banks should have a minimum amount of customer agents they should have in their banking sector. A minimum training they should have about their operations. A minimum standard of how to attend to customers. Then after that I believe those also on the phones handling customers complain. There should also be the same training for them, the same number of recruitment for them and then the banks should try and have two free lines for complaints. Not that you keep me on hold for two hours while my airtime is burning and when I ended up talking to the agent she doesn't even know what to do or she's telling me I think she'll do this or do that but it's better you go to our branch. If I wanted to go to the branch if it is convenient do you think I would burn two hours of airtime listening to your advert and music to talk to you. So the banks need to sit up increase manpower in the customer service more training for them both technically in their operations and how to serve customers better. And the consumer protection agency, they also need more manpower because I realize they are also very very much restricted. I think their branches are very very small. We have so much going on in Nigeria that they need a lot of manpower too and they need to have a toll free line rather than just email and forms. Okay well we would encourage people to still go to the website of the consumer protection and see how you can contact them depending when you can find that number. Maybe there's just a number there that you can call and all that. I hear that any time a complaint is made to them they really take up this matter. They're not going to tell you something like bring foil money, maybe we'll go find person with loss. I know some people who do that but the people who are having the concern about this pegging of the maximum withdrawal per day and per week are not only the businessmen sometimes politicians as well are worried and it depends on which divide you are. Some are saying that it is for the better as the 2023 election comes. Some are saying it is for the worse as 2023 elections come. How do you as an individual think that it's going to impact on the 2023 election? This policy that the CBN has brought. I think if it is faithfully and thoroughly implemented it is going to help cope with buying to a large extent because such things are mostly done with cash to leave no trails. So if the CBN is faithful thought that every party has a level playing ground everybody is made to obey the law. I think it is going to help in the area of curtailing or reducing vote buying by cash on the day of the election. I don't know if it can be circumvented but I believe I'm very positive about it and I'm even happy about it that if this policy works and is implemented we might actually have an election that vote buying would be very, very much minimized in the past elections. So I'm hoping the CBN is faithful in its implementation and the politicians understand that the game has changed. There's a new sheriff in town as we say. So that's just the fear that some people are having is that this policy is going to begin in January. On the 9th of January I think that's when everything will begin in earnest that you cannot withdraw and the money in circulation the new money will start circulating from, it has started circulating from now and from this time to the 9th of January might be enough for some people to collect the money that they will need to finance this election. Secondly, some people are also thinking that vote buying has gone to a different spectrum where governors now are using the word empowerment and giving people money that was not even budgeted for in the first place and nobody knows how that subhead is called or anything they're just giving empowerment money and that money will last between now and the end of election. No legislation for the money to continue nothing of that sort they're just giving out money like that vote buying. So do you really think that this policy is good enough to prevent vote buying knowing that people don't even need to go to the streets anymore to give people handouts of 2,000 Naira and 3,000 Naira? Well, with the era of vote buying where empowerment if it is activity can be called that I believe there's little we could do about it but if the money is not legislated before I believe people in their jurisdiction or constituency if they are sure that the money because that is misappropriation if the money is not budgeted for I believe the only thing they can do is take it up with the anti-corruption agencies about that but regarding the first point you made that the new currencies in circulation already and that some people might be able to get enough before now and January 9 deadline when the withdrawal limit starts that would be unfortunate because even from now when anybody goes for huge withdrawal I believe they should be questioned asked because knowing that from next month there's going to be a limit what exactly are you going to do with this amount of cash because on a good day you should start planning you should start practicing the policy that is coming on board by January from now so what exactly do you need this amount of cash and usually when people collect a huge amount of cash consecutively for a few days whether politically exposed persons or individuals normally I believe there's a tracking mechanism to see exactly what they do and why they will need that amount of money so I believe on this also the EFCC the ICPC the NFIU have to be on the alert to ensure that people don't circumvent this loss because with every law people try to find loopholes to circumvent it so I just hope I cannot say categorical that it will not happen but I just hope those in charge those who are supposed to know better do what is good for the country and make sure that nobody gets undue advantage on this if I take you if I just if I just quickly follow up with that the National Assembly we've seen in news reports the National Assembly after interacting with the Government the Central Parliament was not very happy with the position of the CBN Governor because the Governor insisted that the policy has come to stay but the National Assembly feels otherwise of course the National Assembly is made up of politicians okay rightly or wrongly their action might be either misinterpreted maybe they have good intentions but then the feeling is that the policy as you have said and suggested is actually going to impact negatively on politicians who wish to buy votes and maybe some might therefore interpret the position of the National Assembly of wanting the policy reversed to mean that the politicians want to scotulate what's your reaction to that my reaction is that the CBN has sat down with its experts and came up with this policy they know exactly why they came up with it they believe and told us it is for the greater good of the country they know that if implemented it is going to affect those on the lower care of the economy and the middle class then if they allow politicians for whatever if it is a selfish reason the politicians give if they allow them to beat them to make them reverse this policy then I think it is on them because I don't think constitutionally the National Assembly can force the CBN to back down on this I'm not a lawyer but if the constitution does not allow for that to happen so I believe if they are surely doing it for the greater good then they should stick to it and see it through politicians will always find ways just because there is no way today doesn't mean that if politicians know that this policy will stand they will find their loopholes it might be minimal but they will find it so if the CBN is telling us this for the greater good and we should bear with them and bear the pains then everybody should bear the pain since we are all for the greater good the top class the first class citizens as we call them we should bear the pain and bear with us we all want a better Nigeria Ok Mr Habib I would just like you to say a final word to your community as in the business community due to how you feel about this policy if you think it is a good one talk to them to encourage them if they are very good enough then let's profile solutions and see that like you said they should be patient I have taken that already but any other final word you would like to talk to Nigerians about or your particular business community just go ahead and do that before we wrap it up on this segment please Ok I think to the business communities we have Egghead we have scholars and we have an expert on finance to come together and see how it impacts the greater majority because I might be speaking from a privileged position I don't know so I believe now is for us to listen to everybody in the community and see how we can help mitigate the impact the negative impact it is going to have on them if we can see that the negative impact is greater than the positive impact then the business community should come together reach out to all those that should reach out to the CBN and the minister of finance and budget and whatever and see what we can do and especially the office of the vice president who is in charge of the east of the business in Nigeria I think we should engage them and lay our fear to them especially those that are going to be negatively impacted and how the economy might be worse for it in the short term so we can find ways to engage CBN and encourage them to make the policy to be lenient in the enforcement so that people that have special needs and concerns will be accommodated so that it will not become a punishment for the business community so that it will be a policy implemented with a human face Ok, we'd like to thank you Mr. Abdul Qadir Habib for coming on the show you are a businessman we pray for what do they say how do they call it pray for more money in your account and hope that the deductions will not make you go broke and to everybody else who is watching let's be patient a little bit and where there are concerns like Mr. Habib has said let us try to see how the relevant people can be engaged Mr. Habib, thank you so much for being a part of our program Thank you very much for having me You too We'll now take a break and when we return we'll try to do a recap of some of the personalities that we've had on the program in the course of the week so that you get to hear some of the things that they said because all of them had ample opportunity to say a lot of things even though they are not all the things that they wanted to say but the little that we can play for you today, we're hoping that you'll get something and you'll ask the relevant questions and we're still very open in our social media handles at Plus TV Africa both on Twitter and on Instagram you can ask your questions there so if it cannot be answered we'll make sure that the person who needs to answer those questions answers them either by coming back to the studio or sending in the answers that we need to relate to you in the meantime don't go anywhere we'll be right back we'll see you next time bye