 There we go. So this is the OGM check-in call on Thursday, March 17th, 2022. Yeah, Eric, so two years ago at Unfinished 2020, and Unfinished is a conference I've never attended in person, but it's been held in like a castle in Bucharest. They apparently have a beautiful venue that they've used over and over again. And then when pandemic, they went virtual and they invited me to give a keynote in 2020, which I did and loved. And then in the run-up to that, I mentioned the story-threading idea, and they were like, oh, we can't do that now, but hold that thought. So when they were planning Unfinished 2021, they said, hey, Jerry, would you like to try this out? And so they invited also a woman named Emma Schmidt who came in and story-threaded with me. She's a graphic illustrator. And so she would make a drawing of the sessions that we story-threaded, and I did my brain and commentary sort of thing. And it worked really well. So we did six sessions, each of which are interviews, like complete interviews. So without watching the interviews, just watching our story-threading doesn't make that much sense, right? It doesn't all kind of come together. But I really liked the assembly. I like how they work. And so then they edited a picture of Emma's illustration, the interview, my story-threading, and then a picture of Emma's illustration at the end. And that sort of book-ending a session. And then there's links to my brain and whatever else. And I don't know, did you have a chance to peek at any of them or? I watched the one with Emma. That was interesting. But what you just said, editing, that that's really important, just getting the right clips in the right order to present your case or whatever you're talking about. Exactly, exactly. And one of the things I haven't gone back and looked at the videos on YouTube, but one of the things that, one of the problems with the organization I just mentioned is that it's really hard to figure out where the story-threading starts. And there's a very simple low-tech solution, which is chapters on YouTube. Do you know how to do chapters? I've seen it, I haven't played with it. It's super simple and really impressive. It's like, huh, in the description field that you as the poster have full control over. So in the description field, just do zero colon, zero, zero, intro. And that means that timestamp zero, zero, zero, just put the word intro on the timeline, right? And then you put timestamps and whatever word you wanna show up on the timeline. And it just has to be any place in your description and Zoom is smart enough to find it and then add those little tabs to your video. Oh, nice. And it makes your video completely scan much more easily scanable. It reminds people of what's happening in the session. It's like a brilliant feature. I don't know why more people use it. Yeah, it should be like a must-use kind of thing. And I wish, for example, that there was a way, it'd be really fun if there was a way during our calls where as we shifted sort of topics, a little bit in retrospect, but sometimes you can tell, well, we talked about this for a while. We talked about unfinished for a while and then we shifted into the call format and then this is who was speaking for a while. And then this, that if we had like annotations like that, we could kind of assemble that ourselves. In fact, an interesting thing we might do even for this call is to set up in the chat. We could even maybe do it in the chat so that I could search through the chat and find the timestamps and the topics, exactly. And do that. Mr. Friend, good morning. We're all unfinished. Dr. Mikulski, how are you, sir? I am well, thank you. We're being formal this morning. Okay, I've seen some folks that are doing long courses on YouTube just periodically stop the recording at break points, just toggle the recording off and on, which produces a timeline that shows breaks in it under the YouTube screen and they provide an annotation, like kind of a time catalog in the notes. Interesting. Three await, we did this and it's seven minutes, four seconds, we did this. So that's one way to do it is that I've seen the... What does YouTube work? So that works when you stop and start in Zoom and that turns into something interesting on YouTube? I believe so. Because I'm not sure how that translates. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I've seen people say, I'm stopping and starting to give you marks and in the video I'm looking at, I'm seeing marks, you know, breaks in the stream. And then a time, I guess a manually annotated time code that goes below that explains what's happening when. Something to check. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Happy St. Patrick's Day. Everybody wearing green? Nobody is. Nobody else. I'm in green. This is nominally green. I was in green. Yeah, it's very green. Happy Purim also. There's probably several others. Yeah, exactly. Happy day of white boardy racing. I don't know. There's a day first for everything, right? A potato chip day. I heard it was potato chip day. Maybe it was yesterday. I don't know. Well, that's good. Yeah. Does that mean we're supposed to eat more of them or honor them by not eating them? Eat more. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a couple of weeks ago it was a latter safety day. Which do you think? What is that something wonder day? Every day before the latter safety day. Yeah. It's Esther the Wonder Pig. Esther the Wonder Pig. Yeah, from YouTube. I somehow missed Esther the Wonder Pig. Gonna have to look her up. Cool. Let us go into our reverie of check-in format. And why don't we go Doug Stewart-Stacey? Okay. I've never gone first. That's, you know what? I was looking at you going, you know, you're always, you always somehow end up at the tail end. You should go first. So probably the middle would be better, but I'll do this. And you like reflecting on what everybody's been doing, but I'm not giving you that chance this time. Well, you could also ask that I could defer you in, you know, into later, but... No, this is fine. Okay. What's been on my mind is thinking about Elon Musk's approach to getting to Mars. Okay. And it goes like this. I'm not interested in going to Mars. I think it's a mistake. But his approach to going to Mars I really like. Which is to be fearless about what it's gonna actually take and then organizing to do it. And he's extremely good at that kind of project management. So my view is what if the goal was to colonize Earth, not to colonize Mars? And what is it gonna take? What do we need to do to feed everybody? What do we need to do to house everybody? How do we stop the burning of fossil fuels? I'm totally convinced that it requires a multi-polar world of leaders who are willing to work in friendship with each other and that a monopolar world doesn't work because it always goes to authoritarian. And we just need to be forthright about putting it all together. And it's just damn hard. We don't have the leverage points. I thought, for example, what if we deputized all the teachers in the world to be the local representatives of this process? Anyway, that's what I've been thinking. So my shorthand for what you just said is, what would Elon do? W-W-E-D. And I would love for you to riff a little bit more. He does appear to be fearless and he's flirted with bankruptcy many times. I don't know if he's declared bankruptcy ever or whatever. I know what would Bucky do. So many people are traveling on Bucky's thinking these days. It's lovely. He's had a huge long effect on the world in trying to rethink the world. But how's this work? Go ahead, Gil. Yeah, well, Bucky's proposal for world game was very much what Doug is talking about. And yeah, let's do that. The multipolar world and unipolar world is a funny thing. Alexander Dugan, who is arguably Putin's main strategic advisor, talks very compellingly and terrifyingly about a multipolar world. It doesn't sound very democratic at all, but unipolar certainly got its problems. There's an interview. I don't know how many of you follow Alex Friedman, who's doing amazing interviews. And he did Musk and Zuckerberg in the same week. Wow. And he's really a tough interviewer and he has a three hour interview with Musk, where Musk lays out the details of what it takes to put together a project to get to Mars. And he does not back away from the details. As soon as something looks like a problem, he moves right into it with the requisite talent to solve the problem. And that interview is really worthwhile. And he's an amazing guy. We should talk about sometime, Alex Friedman. And it's spelled the way I put it in the chat, Doug. F-R-I rather than E, F-R-I-D-M-A-N. Yeah, yeah. If somebody could find a link for that, that would be great. There's also an interview with him and, not an interview, but Chris Anderson did a piece in Fortune, I think early 18 maybe, early 17 or early 18, profiling Musk and Jobs. And it was fascinating. I think it stood out, you know, each of them as people who had reinvented four industries, which is pretty stunning in itself. And the thing that stood out for me was the discussion of the launch of SpaceX. And apparently he had his team look at, what are the physical limits of putting a payload into orbit, figuring that there is some gap between NASA's 1950s, early 60s rocket technology and what we can do today. There might be some opportunity there. And he figured it was like a 2X. There could be a play. It turned out to be a 100X differential. And on the spot, he wrote a check for him $100 million as the story goes. Just saying, if there's a gap, let's go in it. And so I found it stunningly fascinating at the courage of that. And then the compliment that Doug's talking about of the willingness to go from that huge picture perspective down to the nuts and bolts of what does it take to do it is it seems pretty rare. And yeah, very much worth paying more attention to. Along with it is, I mean, the world is divided into those to basically want to keep the current economy going but with new energy, but no social change. The alternative view is the social institutions have to really change. And I think that we just forget about industrial civilization and move into a garden civilization that we have a chance of being able to run and feed everybody and house everybody. And see a guy in the middle of my screen who's fascinated by that idea. Go ahead. I'm sorry, can I just follow up on that here? Yeah. So I love, Doug, you said so we let's just move from an industrial civilization to a garden world civilization. And I'm contrasting that what you said before about must being willing to dive into all the nitty of what does it take to build a civilization on Mars. So in the gap that you just posted for us, I'd love to hear you dive in and talk about what does that transition strategy look like because social change ain't engineering. Well, I think two key points is first of all to cut CO2 we've got to use of fossil fuels which is going to unemployed a lot of people. So I think the two thrusts are cutting fossil fuels and building a new kind of welfare society to take care of all the people who are hurt by the process. And that's about as far as I've gone in my thinking. If I may. Please pass. I just had a conversation with someone else about overshoot. So we, the generally accepted number of overshoot is 1.7, meaning we're using 1.7 times the regenerative capacity of the planet. When you look at aquaverse being overt on fish stocks that were fished out way beyond the regeneration rate, minerals and so on and so on. So you take today, we would like 7.8, 7.9 billion people roughly you divide that by 1.7. You come up with around 4.5 billion people that would be the carrying capacity of the planet given today's inequalities, right? There's still hundreds of millions of people, food insecure and what have you. But we're still adding roughly 80 million people per year net. How do you do that? So by 2030 we are on track to reach 8.6 billion people. So the quest, which is clearly not going to happen and the choice we have is over figuring out how to not have it happen. It can happen, it can be avoided by wars and famines and chaos or we can have a somewhat organized way of shifting direction and the chances of shifting directions quite frankly just don't look really very good. But that's basically the scenario that we are, when you look at this more bank account perspective, we have a bank that we have capital in the bank that draws X amount of interest but we're spending beyond it. But then every year we want to draw more out of the bank account because we are drawing down the ecological capital of the planet while we're increasing our demand on it. It looks pretty bad. Thanks, Klaus. Doug, I'm impressed by Musk's ability to reimagine and successfully rebuild things and like, wow, okay, who is the biggest passenger automaker in the US, et cetera, et cetera. That's like crazy stuff and troubled by a lot of his personal stuff but really troubled by his and Bezos and others. We have to get off this rock philosophy and I like how you're bending, I like how you're repurposing Musk's about getting things done-ness back to earth and focusing on us. But then I'm a little surprised that your first move is a negative move. Your first move is we must cut carbon emissions. And I'm like, wow, there's so many positive things to do and like, first thing is cut carbon emissions which is going to unemployed a lot of people. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What happened to everything else? And can't we, isn't greening the most incredible employment opportunity around? And like there's a whole bunch of other arguments here. So I'm kind of surprised by your logics there. Well, notice I'm putting cutting fossil fuels and the new welfare state in parallel in time. They're not sequential. I know, but the new welfare state doesn't fix that much. No, okay, no, so not to the answer about greening. The problem with greening right now is it's so caught up in greenwashing and weird ways of making a profit off of everybody by pretending to be green. And if you look at specific projects like the growing trees doesn't add up very well. There's a lot of critiques of what's wrong with those things. I don't think that we should stop green projects that look like they fit this tough scenario. But I don't think that the basic social language right now of going green cuts it. Anybody else? Cool, let's go back to our cue, which is Stuart Stacey-Mark. Yeah, so the previous conversation just teased up some of what I'm feeling right now. And that is human ability to be carping with ideas as opposed to collaborating. And I'll just, I'll tie that into just watching the incredible level of inhumanity going on in Ukraine today. It's just heartbreaking. It's just heartbreaking to watch this incredible level of destruction. And so at the root of all of this of any grand plan is the idea of changing human beings' psyche, changing the way we think. There'll always be some marginal level of criminality, I think, where people are just not housebroken and don't have the capacity to live in society. But all of us need to make a leap in some way so that we can actually work together. And listening to the conversation, the idea of a grand plan because of the carping nature that we seem to have, it almost seems like an impossibility. What seems more likely is that we go back to an older way of organizing, almost like a hunter gatherer where you've got small groups of people creating the conditions that work effectively. I'm a little stymied right now because the level of sadness, just in these last few days, the cumulative effect of three weeks of bombs and projectiles and explosions and kids being killed, I'm just finding it a little bit overwhelming at this moment. Yeah, thank you, me too. And the idea that this might just be the start of a protracted thing like this because Russia turned Grozny into rubble, Aleppo into rubble. Like Russia knows how to do this and has no particular compunctions about doing it. And so here we are with everybody holding a smartphone and having a still a stall connection miraculously. So we're getting like reporting from everywhere. It's very hard. But for some reason, it doesn't look like they're applying the Grozny strategy in Ukraine. At this point, not yet. I mean, the new guns. The news reports keep talking about utter devastation in Ukrainian cities, but it looks like much less than that for now, given what they did in Grozny. So Grozny took a while, right? And also I think they were carpet bombing. Like like... Only two weeks then. Yeah. Yeah, they're not carpet bombing in Ukraine at this point. Yeah, I think you can't... For whatever reason. Yeah, I don't think you can tell from the media how much destruction is actually going on as they tend to play things on a loop on a reel. But it was, you know, but there's enough of it that, at least from the news, the piece that Zelensky put together for his presentation to Congress, there's enough destruction that, you know, they've taken some beautiful cities and just made messes out of them. Between that and the preparations for a Russian invasion, how long does this take to put back into place, whenever the continuation ends? Yeah, let me tug you back to the waters of grand schemes may not work. What you see is sort of tribalization or small scale solutions collaborating. I think that's kind of the problem of our times is that we're facing hyperobjects, we're facing wicked problems, very thorny, thorny messes that are endangering humanity. And unless we work against each other as little as possible, we're probably not gonna figure out how to solve those things. And we may just through crisis wind up as tribal, you know, with way less population as tribes that are basically, you know, figuring out how to live. And I had this hopefully increasingly popular view given Graeber and Wengro's book and so forth that long ago, we used to really understand hunter-gatherer, we think of hunter-gatherers as like starving and warlike, when in fact they were pretty much fat and happy and working very little to feed themselves because the landscapes were plush with food, we hadn't destroyed all the landscapes yet. And they had hard won knowledge for how to collaborate with the landscape. They didn't divide the landscape up into plots where that's your apple orchard, this is my cow pasture. They actually worked together to sort of say, hey, let's do this, let's make complementarities, let's craft and sculpt the landscape actively. So in his book, 1491, Charles Mann talks about how probably two thirds of the North and South American landmass appear to have been actively managed by humans with no fences and no anything else. But you can go into the Brazilian rainforest, which we think of as pristine jungle, and you can drop core samples in the earth and you'll find terra preta, which is prepared earth, which is broken up pieces of clay pottery. Somebody made a million pots at a juncture of rivers in the middle of the Amazon, which we think of as like Amazon. Somebody made a million clay pots, broke them up and folded them into the earth with human detritus to make the soil really fertile, surprisingly fertile. And we're just discovering those kinds of things. Like, whoa, what? And so there's like multiple degrees of this that we've understood how to do before and we've wiped out most of that knowledge. So unfortunately, if we were driven back to tribal nature right now, we might in fact be pretty stupid. We might have lost much of what that was. Sorry, Doug, you've been wanting to jump in for a bit. Well, I think going along with going tribal and local is a really good use of the internet to share knowledge across villages. And the problem with looking at going local only is too many places in the world are not capable of sustainable agriculture. And so we've got to figure out how to help those people by integrating them into a network even if the focus is local. And I'm really interested in a combination of old and new in lots of different ways. And I'm in agriculture, for example, we've been talking a lot in these calls about regenerative agriculture classes on fire and on a great mission to make sure that more of that happens. There's also agroforestry and vertical farming and a bunch of sort of aquaponic, hydroponic, hydroponic kind of things that where people are saying, well, we don't need garages in downtown areas because autonomous vehicles are gonna take them away, we could turn them into farms, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And to me, that's like a high-tech, low-tech way of maybe conquering some of these things. And then behind the scenes, of course, there's all these habit things. Like we eat a lot of beef, which is like the wrong way to use the planet in 15 different ways. But we need to figure out how to blend well what these things are, right? Right, Gil, you want to get in? My cloth, go ahead. Yeah, when you consider that we are exporting the way we call food and the way we score up nature here all over the world, you know, when you look at the Arabs now, buying land in Tanzania, you know, to then transfer, take huge tracts of land and put that into industrial production, screwing up their topsoil and water and what have you. We have to convince these multinationals to shift direction and so far in the food industry that it's as hard to come by as it is in these energy sector, I just got surprisingly accepted as a speaker to an international conference in Croatia that is addressing the processed food industry. And it's just, this just came out, but I make it official that indeed, because I put forth an abstract that was pretty radical saying that the processed food industry has to shift direction and accommodate the needs of the farmer to change into regenerative practices, which means they need to change out their types of crops, their crop cycles, which means the industry has to decentralize its supply chain. So I thought I'll never hear from them again and here they not just accepted it but make an announcement out of it. So there is, we need to reach out, not to countries in Africa, in Asia, to in South America to assist them in understanding what is being done to them because these companies go into Tanzania, pay off the political leadership and then do things that are just devastating and perpetuating this madness. So yeah, I don't know. Thank you. Well, let's go back to our cue, Stacey, Mark, Michael. So yeah, I mean, I could talk about like what Stu brought up, but I don't want to because what Doug brought up is something that I've been dreaming about for a long time to have the kind of calls where we start at the beginning knowing that this needs to be done, but if we do that, what would be the downside and how do we catch that? So doing those two things together. And I guess what I find is in our culture is sort of a stunting of imagination. I'm gonna leave it at that because I just have too many things going on, but Doug, I really wish that you would have a call with only the people that wanted to play that if then want, because too often in collaborating, we try to get everybody on the same road and it would just be better if we just split off for a little bit. And then those that find an interest find their way back. And I'm extremely interested in our processing, composting, mulching, weaving, what each of these ideas does and is back into the middle so that we keep sort of figuring out, okay, that group over there sort of a couple of really wise answers, let's fold those into the mix of the collective wise answers. And we're not doing that very well as a culture or even as small subgroups. What's happening is there are communities that have grown up like donut economics at this point. And Kevin is now pretty heavily involved in donut. Donut has a structure, a model, a book, a leader, and there's a bunch of communities around the world who are trying to practice donut economics, which is really interesting. What can we carry out of donut economics and into this common pool of good ideas and remix with game B and with whoever else? Go ahead, Stacy. If I could, since Elon Musk was brought up, on another call, somebody was talking about how he open sourced all of his stuff and now companies in China are his biggest competitor. And I pointed out that that's really in his best interest because all that demand is going to increase the push for infrastructure here that will support his company. So it's that kind of thinking that I think is important. Agreed, and I don't think he open sourced all his stuff. He open sourced some battery technology that was really important because he wanted the batteries to be ubiquitous and cheap, as you just said. He drove stuff, but there's a bunch of Elon stuff that's very proprietary. I mentioned charm of batteries should have been clearer. Sorry, Gil. I had thought he open sourced all his stuff, but no matter, I mean, he seems to be less concerned about making more money than about transforming the mobility industry on the planet. He knows he'll make money doing that, but his goal was not for Tesla to be the biggest car company in the world, but for the car industry to go EV. And he's succeeding at that. It's one of the industries that he's transformed. I like this mix, I like what Stacy said and would love to do that conversation. And I would invite Doug to role play Elon Musk. Take the idea that you put forward, talk to the idea that you put forward about what Sally Ride called the mission to planet Earth and speak as though you were Elon with that perspective and drive and focus and so forth, not like a bunch of people thinking, wouldn't it be nice if, but if you were that and it's not just you could write a $100 million check, that's not the most important thing about him. The most important thing, as several people have said, is the way he approaches a complex project. So I would love to have that conversation with you and Stacy and anybody else that would want to do that. As in, what if we could actually make this happen? What would we do? Love that. That's a little bit why Tong and Cheek I posted what would Elon do at the top of the chat is like? Well, it's like, what would I do if I was able to think like Elon? Right, right. The other thing here to what several people have said about the planetary deficit, I think Klaus, you were the clearest about it. You know, we've got a Congress that is filled with deficit hawks that are in the way of all kinds of shit because of their obsession with financial deficits. What if we could turn the deficit hawks onto the planetary deficit? What if we could bring their fierceness to the planetary deficit or bring that consciousness into their minds about deficit to pay attention to? And Eric put in the chat a little bit earlier that in IT there's this idea of a technological deficit where, man, we forgot to write the documentation back there and there were a couple of bugs and those things basically add up and you then have to pay your, sorry, technological debt and you have to sort of pay the piper later on because those things accrue. Let's go Stuart than Klaus. Yeah, a couple of thoughts. One of the reasons that I think that we're not as creative as we might be is that we're all just so busy. We're living in a culture of incredible busyness and so the creative ideas just don't percolate up and out and maybe Elon Musk does it because he smokes a lot of grass. It's just that maybe his secret, I don't really know. I love the idea of smaller groups, really drilling down on a good central core of an idea. Thanks Stuart. Klaus. I wanted to challenge the skills thought that the congressional members are deficit hawks. They're not. They're prostitutes, they're prostitutes. I was listening to a hearing on the Congressional Agricultural Committee yesterday focusing the link between farm bill and climate change and every single Republican had something incredibly negative to say about why are we not increasing biofuel mandates? Why are we not? Why are we messing around with our incredibly successful agricultural system and so on? They are defending status quo because that's where their money is. They don't have any noble intentions to control the deficit. On the contrary, when you think about how they were spending money during the Trump administration, it was ridiculous. So that's really an unfortunate thing is that just bought out. You forgot the air quotes, Gil? I forgot the air quotes. I mean, if you look at the chart over the last 40 or 50 years, the federal deficit always goes up under Republican administrations, goes down to the Democrat administration. So yes, it's a bullshit phrase and still I think there's something in the idea of focusing people on the planetary deficit. Cool. Let's go back to our cue, Mark Michael Ingrid. Thanks, good morning. I just got back in town from a funeral of the last aunt of ten ten aunts that had aunts and uncles that had children and a heck of a lot of Mexican food. Total, total, total Mexican family with doctors to cholos. Just low riders and epidemiologists and gastroenterologists and, you know, Oxnard and Moorpark. There's a big family burial plot in Oxnard, but Moorpark was the funeral and where kind of the center of the family was. They've been around for for many, many years. And Moorpark grew up around them. And that was interesting to get back and to and get into the work, which is too busy. And there's many things to too many things to to do. There's one thing that I want to be very creative on at work. Basically going in a different direction than than some of the people I just don't have time. So I'm going to let it go in the wrong direction. Just just get my work done and hopefully come back to that. Walking home, you know, I'm always thinking about. Well, actually. At work, somebody showed up bringing the doorbell to do a book donation and it turned out to be one of the people from Abalone Alliance, the big like mission and 16th and Cap Street brick building that is was a center for nonprofits is is pricing people out. And so Abalone Alliance is closing their offices. And and we had an incredible conversation because I have been focused on the notion of training as Doug Engelbart mentions, you know, human systems. Training is essential. And so we've been having a number of different conversations at work and some people are going, yeah, we don't need training. We're good enough. And I'm like. And so we talked about the Quaker. He called it the monster manual of how to do. Consensus dialogue and the idiot manual. It's like, I guess the idiot's guide to consensus dialogue and decision making. And so, you know, a couple of different resources from him. Because that was as an activist. What worked for the protest at Diablo Canyon are all the affinity groups all over the planet, all of the country were trained, self trained in consensus process. And when we got together at the outside the power plant and I think it was 82 things went swimmingly in terms of how people organized kind of. Don't want to use the term spontaneously, but they had skills of how to respect and talk with each other. They had training, they had experience. Oddly enough, walking home from work. I live in the inner sunset and there's a bookstore Green Apple on the park and they have a lot of author talks and talking was Monica Guzman who wrote a book. I never thought of it that way. Interviewed by Buster Benton, a book, Why Are We Yelling? And a group of braver angels basically having small conversations between Republicans and Democrats. Focusing on skills of communicating and listening. Depolarizing conversations and stressing the importance of one-on-one, you know, breakouts to basically have people develop a natural curiosity for each other above and beyond, you know, the polarizing media. And, you know, she's a journalist and, you know, they had this little hold America together refrigerator magnets and it was fascinating and I haven't looked at any of her YouTubes but they're all over the place and it was a fascinating conversation. I certainly asked the question about, you know, what is the role of training and how do we get people to basically train? I mean, here we are 13 people. Do we do our best in listening and, you know, story-threading in this particular manner? You know, I was reflecting that I so miss Kiko Lab and there was a difference in conversation and a difference in connection there that I don't get in these OGM calls. I'm kind of wondering how can I, you know, participate in, you know, the imaginative redesign and play to experiment in different ways of connection that I've experienced but not all the time. And so that's where I'm at. I continue to work on my MX, you know, Mexican mind model of association where, you know, relation is not as important as... Well, a specified relation is not as important as the exploration of relation, of possible relation between terms within the language. And boy, can I not really explain it very well, but that's a struggle. And so I continue to really play at trying to build a real person-centered open global mind. And, you know, that's the main reason I'm here is the research and the semiotics and in thinking and imagination and trying to basically create a tool that is lifelong for everyone to have their own secure, never shared with anybody else, mind tool to basically reflect on their own processes of thinking and knowing. Yeah, I completely fail at it since 1984, but try, try, try again. And I'm happy to listen here. And it seems like sustainable agriculture has been all over the place, but unsustainable demand might be not going to allow that. And it's not in those places that, you know, sustainable agriculture could work at a smaller scale. Thank you. And I'm happy to be here. Mark, thank you for the really, really rich check-in. I was just, you put so many things on the table in a lovely way. We should talk more about Braver Angels at some point. It's super interesting. It's clearly a sort of sibling community that we're doing that's done a lot of work, a lot of really fantastic work. They're trying hard to bridge the cultural divide by using actually respect, friendship, trust, a bunch of pretty basic human traits that seem to work pretty well when you sit down and slow down and actually try to do them. It's quite interesting. And then so many other things. I mean, one piece of what made KikoLab work really well was them just really experimenting with formats and doing a lot of playful things. There is them diving wholeheartedly into giving each other praise and saying, hey, here's what everybody's qualities are and what goes on. There's a lot of good things there. And I miss Charles and Lauren being in the conversations. That praising was interesting, uncomfortable, insightful, weird. It really was not something that I was comfortable on at first. And, you know, yeah, it's, we have, we're creative humans. We have a lifetime to play. And, you know, I appreciate that spirit. Thanks. Stuart. Yeah, I just wanted to pick up on what Mark was saying about training. I might have added to my, my, my own check in. Last week I did a three day training as an instructor in Houston. Had a lead with emotional intelligence. And what goes on is, you know, in most organizations, you know, they want you to teach for an hour or two. And nothing happens. You raise ideas. But if I get to work and one of the reasons I do these programs on behalf of the American management association, if I can work with a group for three days, I know that the human beings will not be the same at the end of three days as they were when they began. And there's an incredible hunger for that kind of connection and that kind of real conversation. So we have the capacity to do it. It's just like with so many other things. Do we have the, the will to make this happen? I've always thought of the huge potential that all kinds of large business organizations have for being critical pieces of how people get encultured. They could take on that role, you know, a role that may have been played by families or religious institutions in the past. So that's a piece of the opportunity. I think a piece of the potential transformation as we look forward to ways of reorganizing society. It's interesting because. Braver angels is trying to bridge cultural political divides. And if they could settle into being sort of regular communities doing work together, we could, they could then face outward and look at the different problems that are, that are in front of us and collaborate very nicely. I think that, you know, one of the, one of the, one of the opportunities at hand that not enough places are following up on is how to get through into funk, high functioning communities that go take on big tasks. And it's just wearing this very strange place. So thanks. One quick. Yeah. I've been trying to get a Ken Homer and structured conversations and basically got kind of, you know, how do we all kind of coalesce in, in friendship and, you know, you know, here we are at work, but boy, this could be so much, so much more rich relationship. And one of my coworkers goes, we don't need that. We're already good enough. I probably am repeating myself, I think. Anyway, it's just, I keep on getting back to that. Okay. I have to listen to this and, and disagree somehow without trying to manipulate, you know, my own wish to experiment. I did pop song a couple of years ago and the essential lyric was that, you know, somebody was falling in love as so many pop songs are. I didn't know I needed this as much as I needed it until I had a little bit of a taste of it. And that's what the experience is. I think when, when people come together and start to have those kind of real richer, deeper conversations. Agreed. Kevin, do you have to bounce to the top of the arm? No, I don't. I was gonna, so I will keep you where you are in the mental queue I've got. So let's go Michael Ingrid Eric Kevin. Thanks. Hi all. This is really rich. I'm connecting some stuff in my, in my everyday life with some things that are coming up and have come up here. And not so much today, but, but in some of the things that Bill, you've been talking about regarding your recent project and, and also that, that Kevin's been talking about. And I'm the practical on the ground piece is that an opportunity to take on a distressed 19th century industrial property upstate your train station has has come up. I was hoping you were going to say it was a 19th century distressed industrialist, but still go ahead. It sounds fascinating. Well, there's, there's a, there's a late 19th century distressed industrialists family involved. And, you know, it, it, it's sort of a situation that I'm decoding as I go and doing some like fascinating searches and stuff together from like yellow bits of unopened mail on the floor of the space, who people were and how they fit into the picture, sort of creating from an analog legacy, a bit of a digital, a digital, a legacy of digital artifacts, and then using, you know, the, the usual contemporary methods to track down. Okay. So the person who, who used to own this space who does own this space, somebody inherited it's a half interest of it. Oh, it looks like there were two sons, one of them sold their interests to a local blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What's what's their relationship to their father who it's an old machine shop that's full of old equipment. They're asking more money for it than it's worth. So I'm trying to think of, and this is, you know, where it intersects with, with what other been doing. There's a lot that I've done in my past of taking old brands and old things that have like become your father's oldsmobile to use the classic marketing approach and, and think about, you know, what they could be today and in many cases commercially that's about a kind of modernization and and revamp that's like, you know, oh, let's make it hip. But I think there's, there's so much in figuring out how to unearth the legacy that companies have that institutions have that and pull what's good in it, excite the people who have generally, generationally in, in many times, you know, in many situations. And I know, you know, Gil in your endeavors and others I've seen where you're looking at businesses that have been run by somebody who's, you know, past retirement age has no air, you know, looking to what can be done. Can this be co-opped to the workers, can this somehow benefit continue to benefit its community in ways it has and perhaps in new ways. You know, this is a space that is a potential event space, a potential performance space, a bit of a gateway to a small town area, a place that has great indigenous culture. There's, you know, opportunity for exhibits of artifacts that, you know, harken back. And it's, it's, it's really exciting me. And, and, you know, making me think about all the ways that one can, can dust off artifacts, both physical and digital, give them value and visibility to contemporary people who would otherwise never have benefited from them. And, you know, then there's this practical opportunity of restoring something, greening it, making it work for the community it's in, both the physical ones it's in and others, you know, contiguous that it might serve and make it financially self-sustaining. And, you know, I throw that out there just as what's up with me and, and, you know, curious about what it provokes with people. You know, I do think there's, there's so many generational assets, both physical and commercial and gathered wisdom that are lying fallow and destined to go to waste or be buried if we don't figure out ways to sustain them and celebrate them. Sounds like a beautiful opportunity. Just reminding me of times in my life when I was staring at things that might have been huge projects, but why then super interesting payoffs like that. Eric. Yeah, I think that's great. There are museums and libraries that are trying to collect artifacts like that. I'm involved with vintage computers. And it's fascinating when you go back and you see the old mainframes and minis and the various people have communities that collect these things and preserve them. So I wish you all the best with that. So Eric, I'm so glad you just said that. I've been, we've been opening up a lot of boxes that were in storage and I opened up my time capsule from back in the day when I was a tech analyst. And I've got two Metricom modems, three palm pilots, and I've got a little Rex, a little Rex card, sort of computer. My radio, I've got a Newton. I've got a one laptop per child. I've got a bunch of different things. And I'm wondering who would like them? Like, can I donate them someplace? Search for vintage computer federation. And there's probably a local chapter. It's probably a Northwest chapter. You could get in touch with people who could help you. Sweet. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Anyone else with thoughts on, go ahead, Mark. I have a lot of friends who are futurists living here in San Francisco. It's, there's different futurists in San Jose. More extropians and other wacky kinds of really kind of discarding the past. And the futurist friend asked me if, because I have a nice garden and a nice little cottage, if he could have his futurist gathering at my house. And I accepted and I'm in conversations with the people. I found that I was a pastist. And I think I've coined that term. But again, thinking yesterday after this conversation. At the bookstore. You know, there's just so much. That people have done. That, you know, advances so far above where we are. Culturally at different times and of course, very few people, you know, have had 300 ancient Athenians out of 600,000, you know, a million. But fortunately we've got, you know, bits of Aristotle and Plato and Sophocles. And, you know, there's good as anything that's being done today. And I just don't know how to deal with that huge surplus of the past to, you know, have an education. Which should not be so much force feeding the best of the past, but somehow stimulating curiosity. And it sounds Michael like you're, you're following your muse in your curiosity. Good to hear. Yeah. I just immediately thought of the Hornet in Alameda, which is a World War II aircraft carrier. I'm sure a number of people here have been on it. But I mean, stepping onto that, it just puts me right into a meditational space. Thinking back and feeling yourself in that year are wonderful. So yeah, Michael. Kudos. Quick notes. I forget what era the actual Hornet in Alameda is, but the World War II Hornet was sunk. And it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, it's a follow on aircraft carrier. I think that was jet capable. The one in Alameda. I don't actually think that it is a World War II Vengeance, but it might be. Yeah. So that's Hornet Sea Air and Space Museum. Aircraft carrier, which so they picked up the NASA Apollo capsule. So yeah, it's post World War II is an SX class aircraft carrier completed late 43. But I think it was named after the Hornet from that was sunk. Yeah, so it is, it is World War II. Vengeance. Decommissioned in 1970. So let's go back to the intertubes. So let's go back to our queue. We have Ingrid, Eric, Kevin. Grace, nice to see you. Hey, it's always interesting to come and get all kinds of tidbits. We started with Elon Musk and move to, I don't even know what and then got to where we could take our computer. So always interesting. Thanks for that. So I haven't been here in a while. But it's interesting times right now. I would say that I, when we're talking about Elon Musk, something I want to add is he also said there's no other country that I could do what I'm doing in and I think having lived over here now in Europe. That there, there are certain constraints of society that he doesn't have to pay attention to when he's in America as an entrepreneur and as a individual. So I think there's a more freedom and then. On the other side of that, I would say what's what I find interesting now is that with the war going on. And. And the direct really threat to Europe in a lot of ways, if it's not actual war, it's certainly an energy war. Is that you see how the collective works here. So we've never been more united. Then right now when we're being threatened, suddenly, I don't know how long this will last, of course, but right now, everyone's getting together and we're taking in the refugees and. Building all kinds of pipelines for them and then, and then rejecting the pipeline from Russia and having all kinds of convenings on how we will. Work in this new world where we aren't reliant on Russia anymore. And then at in the meantime, I'm hearing these things in America, how the prices of gas has gone up there, yet only what 2% comes from Russia. So opportunism abounds in America, whereas in Europe, we're sitting here going, the shit has hit the fan in every way we're, you know, this madman is there, bringing millions onto our shores that we are taking care of in America. And that's something that really, after the pandemic and all that I saw people doing to each other, and not caring about each other has really renewed my faith in humanity and the European experiment. Because I'd actually like to say that the EU is an experiment, as is America. It's ongoing. And what's interesting is listening to Doug, who's talking about, you know, what are we going to do with energy, we need to go back to agrarian farming and small collectives and, and backwards. I think that ship has sailed long ago. I think that we have to look at a completely new way of doing things that doesn't involve, you know, telling everyone in the world that we are suddenly going to go back to the farm that simply will never work. We have way beyond that at this point. However, there is elements that we could bring from that, but I just had such a far ranging conversation. It's just so interesting every time to hear the American agenda when I get on this and I miss that. And so I wanted to join again, especially find out what was going on right now with your thoughts because I feel like the EU is, and I'm on the side where I'm really hopeful. I am, I literally am getting texts every day and calls from Ukrainian refugees trapped in their homes, asking me if I can help because I subscribed to a bunch of lists to home some refugees and now suddenly I'm, I'm weirdly getting this front row view. And I'll get off the phone crying because it's devastating to hear someone who can't leave their home. And I can't help. This is a strange phenomenon. And yet on the other side, incredibly hopeful, watching the EU come together and say F you Russia, Germany saying the pipeline. Shabbat who knows if this will last, but for now, it makes me feel like maybe this little experiment will do something really amazing for green energy because we already have a pact, a social pact. And I think it's going to be a great opportunity for the EU to do this. And this is accelerating it just like the pandemic accelerated our digital jump to the future. You know, at Germany is not using fax machines as much anymore. Okay, so I feel really weirdly hopeful and at the other side, incredibly distraught by what's happening for the human experience. So that's sort of, yeah, my take on things right now. Wow. Wow. Before I go to class, would you mind just telling us a little bit more story or two about your experiences with talking to people trapped in Ukraine or whatever else, just like, what's it been like? Well, you know, it's been really interesting. I have, yeah, my name got out there. So I've heard from someone in Kharkiv a couple of times. And I was like, what are you talking about? But I have a list of things I can sell and send them. I have, there are all kinds of. Airlines are offering flights. If you can get out of your city, free flights. I can tell them how they get free tickets once they get to Europe. I had friends in Warsaw with a family in Lviv that I was talking to, telling me, and I barely know them. If they come to Warsaw, we will house them. I don't know this family in Lviv every, but I'm checking in with them every day. And it's a really tough position because, yeah, there's nothing I can say except try and tell them what I know. And if they get to Amsterdam, then our doors are open and we're putting them in hotels where every people are coming together, putting them in their houses, giving them jobs. And look, there's the whole thing about, well, we didn't do this with the Syrians, but this is a weirdly different situation in some ways. So it's very complicated. It's just complicated. It is. Yeah. You're totally right. Thank you for bringing that up as well. Thank you. That's really moving what you're doing. Class. Yeah, I wanted to respond to this decentralization. I thought I've been on the advisory council for the United Nations Food Systems Summit and the outcome from last year was embracing what they call the farm to fork community food systems. And the reason for that is that the centralization of food, globalization of food systems has destroyed the communities. So when you go through Europe, you have the small butcher baker in every town, quite self-sufficient, has been evolving over hundreds, thousands of generations to be that way. And in order to return soil back to health and nature back to health, restore biodiversity is a hugely local issue because soil is different first of all in each place. Climate access to water, socioeconomics are so all play a role. So to say we have to go back to medieval practices of agriculture is also not right. So there has to be a new approach to where we can allow a rapid decentralization that is well managed, well orchestrated with macro level support structures. So I used to work as a corporate strategist for metro cash and carry. You may be familiar with them as the largest food wholesaler in Europe and in the world really. And that was our mission, you know, to maintain small businesses and keep them alive. So particularly in Eastern Europe at the time I was actually working in Russia also. It was our largest client country. So the idea to decentralize and allow people to integrate a farm to food system meaning you start with the farmer but then you also build the supply chain, the process, the logistics, the aggregator and so on that moves the product into onto the shelves in the grocery store. So that's the idea. And that really needs to be professionalized, accelerated, you know, and it does require the support of companies that who are in many ways sourcing multinational. I mean, here in the US, the sourcing tomatoes for Mexico, you know, it's just that the whole system is just in need of repair of reworking. So I just wanted to respond to decentralization doesn't mean going back to the Middle Ages. It means to go back to the future with new supporting processes and a vigorous support of the entire population who needs to understand why that is so important. Well, I would agree I was saying Europe that probably has the most chance because we do support the small farmers, it's important for us to have that relationship and we have an EU system that also encourages and protects that. So I think that's a good point. But it does have to be professionalized. I think there I think that there is more support here probably for something like that. Yeah, it's interesting how these things manifest in under different regimes. So in India, they've been having farmer protests for years because they were going to get rid of a minimum price subsidy. This is my amateur understanding from the outside, but they were they were legislating away a minimum price subsidy. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that farmers basically throw the farmers into the free market. And I think most of us know that free markets pretend to be free markets, but really, really often they're not. And so you're at the mercy of whoever, like when the railroads go out across the American West and promise everybody 40 acres in a mule and whatever else. They don't tell them that, you know, they don't tell them, you know, they don't tell them that, you know, they don't tell them what the price is, what the price is, etc., etc., etc., etc. And this plays out all across the world. Like, it's no fun being a small farmer kind of any place on earth except for the places that have begun to realize that these are the treasures of the future. So, Grace. I'm hoping maybe Klaus has had some answers to it. I'm in Slovenia and a farm goes out of business that Europe does support the farmers, I don't see it. What I see is the large companies putting farmers in debt. I see like tremendous farming of corn here, which we don't eat here. And my friends who've talked to farmers have said, yeah, the farmers have to do what the EU is doing. And I can just see the deterioration of our soil even over the five years I've been here. And so I don't see on the ground what would look like support of the EU for what Klaus is saying is necessary and for what Ingrid pointed to. And we do support our farmers. Yeah, we love our farmers and there's a very strong connection to land here. This is a fairly new country, right? It's fairly new in the EU. So we still have a lot of cultural cohesion. But I'm seeing that really hardly eroded just every week. So I'd love it if you guys can provide any information because I don't have any for me here about it. Thank you for that. Yeah, it requires a significant reconfiguration. I mean, we just published this. We're doing the next webinar focused on funding the transition. And so what the difficulty that the farmer has is that in order to change their processes, they will first of all need money up front to invest different types of equipment, different processes, loss of market share, loss of yields and so on. And they need to have design support because you need to really be farm specific in helping the farmer to shift into the just perfect type of seed and crop type and so on, you know, integration of livestock and what have you. But then in the investment community, the worst thing we can do is have the federal government throw billions of dollars into the industry without a plan, right? Hoping that this is somehow going to work out because it's not, I mean, historically it's just not. So there has to be a process structure in place where the farmer commits to a series of steps to implement, meaning I'm gonna buy fences, I'm gonna buy different equipment, I'm gonna put in cover seats, I'm gonna rotate my crops, I put livestock on and so on and so on that requires upfront funding, but that also needs to be monitored. So you start with a plan, you tokenize that plan, you'll bring money to the front end for the farmer, maybe 20% of the entire value is paid out upfront. At the end of one year, there is a verification process, meaning you get audited to see if you are on track with your plan and then as you move forward, you'll end up in a certification process and upon achieving certification, you get the rest of the money 25% or so, it takes three to five years. So to create, we need to create a structure that allows the investment community to fund across to fund 10,000 farms at the same time, to create a massive shift in how the farmer can engage. Then the next step, of course, is now the supply chain needs to come in because they now need to decentralize their sourcing strategies, their aggregation strategies, because now you're dealing with a decentralized supply chain, a producer chain. So it is an incredibly complex undertaking and it requires the cooperation of a lot of people, but at this point in time, the finance community is first of all, uninformed, they're investing money in places where it does more harm than good. I mean, think about impossible foods and all this insanity, what is happening. So they're investing in the wrong places. So they're shifting the system into the wrong direction. So to this webinar that we are doing here, we want to bring attention to the investment community saying here is what we need to do and here's how we recommend doing it. And we have some good panel speakers on there who are completely focused on funding this transition but also need the intellectual foundation or the theoretical foundation to underpin there. Yeah, it's a big challenge. Next class. Just one more quick question is What kind of consideration is being given to indigenous knowledge? I mean, I know that sounds funny because we're white, but you know- Doesn't sound funny. Yeah, some people here didn't have running water until 40 years ago. So the people are still alive who have the indigenous knowledge. Like is that something to be considered? Yeah, I mean, you think about what is regenerative agriculture? It's basically indigenous knowledge. And indigenous knowledge is that you have to treat the soil like a living thing. Understanding that the soil microbiome is the foundation of all life on land, right? Because out of the soil microbiome, the microorganism living in there elevate up into insects and worms which elevate into birds and mammals and so on and so on. So all of life on land originates in the soil microbiome which we are destroying with these chemicals that we're putting onto the soil. The soil microbiome in turn is reflected in our gut microbiome. So indigenous people know that. Indigenous Christians know that, whether that's Korean or Japanese or German, you know, these Christians have evolved over thousands of years to keep us healthy and to create a balance between the soil and our own personal needs. The Asian, actually all of these old cultures obsessed with using food as medicine. Whenever they get sick, you know, the first thing is, you know, you need to eat a chicken noodle soup in its most basic form. So indigenous knowledge is there. We have it in crane in us. We just, we don't need to, yeah, we don't, it sounds more, I don't know how to frame it, I mean, we have it. Let's just say we are regenerative agriculture is indigenous agriculture. Thanks, Klaus. We are not going to make it through our whole queue. I'll just show everybody what the queue looks like right now. We've been kind of slow going through the, I thought we were moving quickly through us, but we're not moving that quickly through us. And a couple of people came and joined us later in the call, which is awesome. So let's just do a few people. Let's go, Eric, Kevin, Rob. Hi, everybody. I wanna thank you all for sharing and giving us the perspective of Europe, what's going on. But let's look at a greater perspective. In 1977, we launched two spacecraft, Voyager one and two, and they've left the solar system. And when they look back at Earth, we are a 12% of a pixel in that picture of the grand solar system. So if more people could look at what we have here, the blessings of Earth, that's something. And we just launched this web telescope and it's gonna be operating for 10 years and it'll find some amazing things. So that got me thinking, well, where do we find our hope for the next 10 years? Just something to think about in your mind. And now I'm just gonna dump a lot of stuff in the chat, some things I've been working on and thinking about. So I put out a new show today in my video series called Brady Bunch Dimensions. It's about ZZ structure, Ted Nelson's idea, using the Brady Bunch as an example to help people understand it. And then there's an app I've been beta testing called Cosmic, I put the links there. And there's a museum that just opened up in New Jersey near where Bill Labs was, so check that out. I can give a very quick demo just to show you what that Cosmic is like if I could just share my screen for a minute. Before it. Okay, desktop. Okay, so yeah, this is a Macintosh app and it's an infinite canvas. So you can visualize things that you could browse the web in a window like this. You put sticky notes wherever you want. And then you put in pictures. So like Eric's selfie over here. And then when I change this little sticky note to Eric's Purim costume, okay. Then this is a live reload that's gonna change. Yeah, Eric's Purim costume, okay. So then these are universes. So here's a private universe. Here's one I created called the Ides of March because I created it on March 15th. So it's loading my universe. And it's just a whole bunch of things that I put together. Some music, some spreadsheets, some sticky notes. And it has the concept of a card. So like you could put things on a card and you can transclute across universes too. So like this card is transcluded from another universe here. And then I could zoom in and look at what's on the card and it has three pieces of music that I digitized and a sticky note of what I'm working on. And then this weekend I'm gonna be participating in a music digitization project. So I collected what I need to start working on it. So I'm taking this piece from a music notebook from 1912 and I'm gonna be notating this music in a digital form. So like I have a first draft up here and then I was playing around and I can embed a webpage that has the wax cylinder recording from 1912 that you can hear here, okay? So think about the power of this. And like, yeah, here's a Creative Commons webpage. So it's like bringing together all the tools for a task and like planning a project for the future just a board of sticky notes that'll come up soon. Yeah, just thinking it through, sticking notes and moving them around. What do I wanna do for my demo? Okay, so it seems like a possible, it has a lot of potential. And the link's in there if you wanna beta test or play with it. Eric, thank you. A brief question. Do intermediate objects in those worlds or universes have permalinks? Like that little tableau you showed us of the sheet music and whatever else could I link directly into that? Yeah, that whole card with the three pieces of sheet music that card could be shared publicly or yeah. So the whole idea of transclusion you could take pieces from other people's work and use them in your work and collaborate. They're very ambitious. I mean, the app right now, it's got a way to go but I think they're on the right track. And this morning, this morning on LinkedIn I got an email from a woman at Sprintal which is a Swedish company doing something that looks a little bit similar. And I will go browse Cosmic Design. See sort of differences and all that because I think the space is like jamming right now. There's lots of companies doing note taking plus zoomable whatever and everybody's got a little piece of the puzzle here and I don't know that many of them are open source so we can't kind of mix and munch them together. Yeah, this is a company that'll eventually sell it but if you beta test, you get a year for free. There you go. Cool, sweet. Thank you so much. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Kevin Rob. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago we were starting to look at donut economics in our watershed in the Swannanoa watershed. And we had the first meeting where we said, no, there was somebody who keeps our local precinct alive and he's gonna look at public sector. And there was somebody who's a permaculture farmer who makes us living with videos done in his backyard essentially and classes and stuff. And there was a pastor who's looking to create a community and working with him, we've looked at, can we make the faith communities into, we're a resilient connected part of the safety net. And then now we're looking at a couple of businesses that are based on caring about the people in our watershed that are in need and the watershed itself. So we're looking at a home healthcare franchise and it's kind of like church visitation as a business essentially and then add on to that weatherization and energy retrofits of those old folks' houses that can be added on as a fee. And we're also working on a demo of a group that's created a note of a large credit union and the Notre Dame credit union in a parish community so that more affluent members can post their collateral for folks who couldn't buy a $5,000 car to get to work. And you're creating a lot of mutuality in there of sharing and no interest, no usury within that. And with those things, I think we can also, once there's that kind of flow because the home healthcare should make a lot of money but we're charging less than the regular commercial folks and that can underwrite the weatherization. You get some subsidies around that but you really just say to the family members, do you want them to have a lower power bill because you're paying their power bill? And so, you know, weatherization pays, energy retrofits pay, all those sorts of things which you have a paying customer who cares more about grandma staying in the house alive and their grandparents or whatever. And then the credit union and the credit union is a place where you can charge fees to, we're looking at, yeah, I know the Lyft economy guys, they're great, anyway, we can set up a local currency because we can give it fiat currency every month through taxing the businesses and from the transactions in the credit union. And so we could do what Serafe was doing in Kenya around that and you have lots of local circulation so things work a lot better, but that's like stage four. But we got a group and last week or this week actually we had two environmental folks from the local Warren Wilson which is a work college here so they want to get their students engaged but that's part of what they do is community engagement. And the woman who's in charge of environmental law and ethics was there and the woman who's mentor to the student work group. And this is one of these work colleges where I got a friend who learned how to be a plumber and then he wanted to be in nonprofit management so I made his living as a plumber on the weekends and worked at nonprofit wages during the week with what he loved and so we're getting them engaged. And so I think it's, you just have to have a place where people care about and you can create these resilient donut economy, circular economy things. And everybody here, this is a place of full of underemployed creatives who've moved here for the lifestyle. So everybody needs a little bit of gig economy work. They're like your waiter and a light worker or whatever. If your waiter or waitress is not also a healer then they're probably not gonna stay. But you don't make money as a, the number of people once you're reiki along with your other stuff. So this is more gig economy folks for folks to care about people and to care about the environment. So this is Swann and Noah watershed near Asheville 28778. And so anyway, we're seeing how we can get that together and have these businesses where people can care about the watershed. The lenses of the donut are local, social and global and local, social and ecological and then global, social. So we're building kind of a community that loves the watershed and the businesses can be around caring and building the community together. But it seems like it's working pretty well. It does. Awesome, Kevin. And I just love hearing all the different projects and everybody knows you're on the list. So we know how to reach you in these things. So thank you. I think we lost Robble on the way. So let's go Klaus and that might actually be the last check-in for today. Yeah, I already shared what I'm working on. So the focus really is on developing this farm to forks strategy here in the US which has been widely embraced in Europe. In fact, each European country has signed on to this and made a statement about the importance of it. In the US, it has been officially rejected. We'll circumvent on record in the Europe saying we're going to take a different course which meaning we're staying with commodity co-ops and we're making monocropping more efficient in this precision agriculture and all of that. So that's something for which we know in the regenerative movement don't see happening. It's not feasible, it's not workable. So we're working to find work around structures that create enough pressure in the markets to shift this. So something that Kevin is doing is super helpful to empower communities to take these things into their own hands. Yeah, I mean, I feel, I see a lot of energy streaming into this, but hopefully there is a tipping point where it really starts rolling and take on speed because we don't have another three, four, five going seasons to keep going as we are. The corp forecast, for example, the winter corp in the US is about 15% below normal because the yields are falling. The adverse weather conditions, weather, climate-based disruptions are already hitting us. So you combine that with what is this Russia and Croatia being knocked off the markets. It's precipitating catastrophic impacts in the Middle East, in Africa. We are really at the precipice of some really bad times. We are only 11% of the US corn production is actually used for food. The rest goes into biofuels and feeds. And Pete's plexed this batch that he sent out this morning. The first thing is an illustration of different countries proportion of their grain output and whether it's used for food, for animal food, human food, animal food, fuel or other. And it's astonishing, it's absolutely astonishing. Yeah, so we need to master the political will to get into this and the political landscape in the US is still so divided and so resistant to all of this. It's getting pretty scary. So sorry, I mean, I don't know. I just wanna say everybody lives in a watershed where you can make a difference and you can worry about the world or you can do something locally in your watershed to make a difference if you get folks together. So you can be gloomy about the world or you can do something locally, it's up to you. And I think knowing what to do that matters that we'll make a difference is important in that choice. Well, I'll respond with the donut thing. We look at those four lenses and we do a local portrait. We have somebody who knows the garden scene and somebody who knows the forestry service stuff. I mean, you can look around, people wanna get together, everybody's concerned. Thanks, Julian, you'll have a last word. Yeah, so what Klaus has been making comments about in other people, I'm wondering if there's a way, how would somebody a layperson know when bad soil practices are in place without attending a seminar, day-long seminar, a week-long seminar to learn how to evaluate this stuff. If there was some way to more quickly deliver that message in the way that a layperson could understand and start to communicate the urgency. What we found as the most compelling message, and this is being developed by the Micronutrient Association right now, is the link between the quality of the soil microbiome and the nutrient density of food. And they're actually working on a handheld device where you can take a leaf of lettuce in there and it shows you the nutrient quality inside the food. And so by explaining to mothers that the nutrient quality of the food that you buy determines the wellbeing of your child and the development of your child in a healthy way. We found this to be the most powerful message and there's a lot of energy and work to advance this and share that with the population. Is this device gonna be affordable? Yeah, oh yeah, it's already, in fact, I'm sorry, we're too late, otherwise I would dig up the website. I'm gonna put the website on the OGM distribution so you can see how that is advancing already. Sounds great, thank you. Thanks, Julian. And then two things. One, after Fukushima, there was a movement that created an open Geiger project for Geiger counters and they tried to get like inexpensive Geiger counters in the hands of lots of people in Japan. And I will put forth again, my total amateur version of that for this problem, which is why don't we do the same for soil organic meters? Basically measuring soil fertility. And then there's lots of other ways of measuring soil fertility. I'm sure that satellite photographs do a good job, et cetera, et cetera. But let's get, and then why don't we propose a tax so that anybody who's improving soil fertility actually gets a rebate, they get a negative tax. Anybody who is hurting soil fertility gets a punitive tax that might actually steer them away from industrial farming, et cetera, et cetera. So that anybody who's caring for the ground and making the soil fertile does better. Cause right now the incentives are all last backwards. It's crazy. So Stacey, maybe you get the last word. I just wanna say one thing that I think really should be brought into this conversation and that's the information that's out there on the role of global mental health and the connection with nutrients in the soil. Agreed. Thank you. So I set the note out about brainstorming for marketing pictures brain tomorrow. If any of you would like to join, I would love that. I'm trying to figure that out. And with that, thanks to everybody. This has been really rich as it always is. It's always like full of nutrients, micro nutrients and macronutrients and all that kind of thing. But thanks everybody. I found the link to the, so it's in there. Perfect. Thank you. Bionutrient.org. Yeah. Thank you so much. And remember we need a topic for next week. So on the matter most chat, if you wanna brainstorm topics for our call next week, please do. Thanks everybody. Thank you.