 So this is the second of the cafe talks and we have three more after this so as you think of questions that you have or thoughts or want to check back in, it's great to come back and you can hop on for 30 minutes, you can stay the whole hour and a half. So we talk about a lot of the cover crop benefits for soil health but in this case we're going to be talking mainly about managing water and how to use cover crops to do that. One of the cover crops that I really like is the Dwarf Essex Rape Seed and I like it because of the root structure but you know mainly when we're using these cover crops we're looking to get some different root structures in the soil, some different depths of rooting to use moisture, different soil layers and throughout the profile. But one of the things we talked about yesterday is if you do have canola in rotation, using brassicas like Rape Seed turnip or radish can cause club root concerns so be sure to steer clear of those in your cover crop mixes as you select them. Just don't want to transfer any of those have club root concerns if you have canola in rotation. This is a PP field from last year that that was just radish turnip and peas and it was going to be grazed after September 1 when that date got pushed up. Another tip if you're going to corn in 2021 don't use just radish and turnip. I think it's tempting because of the small seed size that you could just broadcast it out there and maybe use vertical tillage or something to incorporate it but you could have phosphorus uptake issues in corn the following year because you're putting if you just use radish and turnip you're using two non-micorrhizal species and corn needs mycorrhiza to take up phosphorus. So including a grass or even legumes have mycorrhizal associations is a good thing and so in this case having the pea in there is going to help with that for the following year but just throwing in a grass is really a good idea and not just having a radish and turnip dominated mix. This is a full-season high water table. Sandy so I think Tyler you know this field we looked at it on a tour that you did and this one was going to be grazed it wasn't PP but the intention was to be grazed and I put this one in here because of sorghum and I'm not sure if this is sorghum or sorghum stand grass in here but using Marisol was talking last week about that being an excellent warm season option for for drying out wet soils and typically it's around two pounds per acre we talked last week about maybe five pounds per acre would be would be good in a mix but it does put on a lot of biomass as you can see how tall it gets so if that's something you're uncomfortable with just make sure you're watching that that cover crop and if you need to spray it out and terminate it then you spray it out and terminate it that's just how it goes so so there's another option for for a mix that could be used one of the things that we've done a couple years ago was look at some different cover crop mixes and versus bare soil so these are all the different mixes that we used and then this is the bare soil in a PP situation so you can see how how those make those cover crop mixes were drying out the soil profile evenly with depth and so this green line here is mixed number six which was one of the most diverse mixes we had a cereal ride or a physics rapeseed we had some sugar beet sunflower pea and flax in that mix and it did pretty well drying that soil out but the other mixes did similar things with with same drying out through the profile when you look at the bare soil if we're just managing it with tillage you can see how it dries the surface out but right below the surface is a bulge of moisture and I think that's what we're trying to get rid of and PP and that we want to make sure we prep that field for the following year by managing moisture efficiently and so this is pretty telling as to as to how effective cover crops can be versus just managing a PP area of tillage nitrogen of course the uptake of nitrate and avoiding leaching so here though the levels weren't very high but but we saw that the cover crops took up whatever nitrogen was there we don't know when that's released but at least it's stored in plant biomass and not lost to the groundwater the following year you can see how cover crop residue this is from some of those diverse mixes really isn't isn't as scary as you think it might be that these are basically that the radishes they decompose just turn into almost I don't even know how to explain it but you can just break it apart easily and it's very kind of just dry material so this would be no problem to plant into you can see the barley residue next to it is is just about the same so if you're thinking of what it's like to plant into some of this residue it's gonna be similar probably to planting into some kind of small grain residue at the following year maybe even better in some cases because of the because of the decomposition from the diversity of the mix but one of the worst things you could do is go in after a full season cover crop and work it up so here you can see all the radish and turnip laying on the surface and how that's really you know the radish and turnip are going to decompose much better in the soil over winter versus tilling them and getting them on top so so leaving those fields as is and just planting into the next year's is what we recommend if you're gonna add I had a question the other day about adding or what cover crop mix could be used where they want to do some tillage in the fall and do their fertility and so in that case I recommended and I don't know if this is right or not but I just recommended using something like oats and then terminating it before it heads out so that it stays kind of vegetative and not getting really straw like because if you're gonna work it up you don't want a huge root mass and you don't want all these large radish and turnips and some of the other benefits that you would have by leaving it in place you would just lose with with tillage in the fall so best to just leave it in place if you can and plant into it the next year there are questions about whether you to do a mix or a monoculture and so here you can see a side by side of the two just really depends on what you want to accomplish on that field or what your weed pressures may be so if you feel like you have high weed pressure in a field and putting in a diverse mix is just gonna lead to cover crops plus weeds then maybe you go with a monoculture of grasses and leave the opportunity to spray do a herbicide pass or two during the summer to control your weeds so it just depends on what your goal is if you are gonna do a diverse mix always start with a weed free field make sure you take care of business and get it prepped also repair any ruts or do any ditching that you may need to do on that field before seeding a cover crop cover crops are great but they can't work miracles so let's not set too high of expectations for for some of these things to repair some deep ruts or to make the field level again they can't do that so make sure you do all your work that you need to prior to planting the cover crops or your have good success and in a lot of cases it doesn't need to be that expensive for a diverse mix so 20 bucks an acre 28 pounds per acre seeding rate is what this field is and I think it looks it looks pretty darn good you could also do the monoculture here cereal right 40 to 50 pounds per acre pretty I think of 10 bucks an acre so this is a great option to this farmer did this to leave himself an option with a herbicide pass and he was very happy with how that turned out the rye because it didn't overwinter or vernalize it just stayed pretty low to the ground and it obviously didn't head out so it looks pretty good if you're just gonna use grasses there may be some ideas of using a mix like oat sand barley to help you avoid issues with pp payments I don't know how insurance feels about some of those things but if you have just a single but just a stand of oats then maybe there's the possibility that you could take it to harvest so if you just mix it with another grass maybe that's a good way to ensure that you're not gonna take a cover crop for grain but talk about those issues with your insurance provider and see what they're comfortable with also and if you if you do something like that and you want to terminate it before it heads out that was something we talked about at our cafe talks last year that'll keep the the residue maybe a little bit easier to plant into the following year it might just be something you want to do and if conditions are getting too dry this summer if we do get a drought or something make sure that you're just managing it you can always spray out the cover crop when you feel like you need to so those are just a few kind of starting ideas just to get us thinking and going and and discussing so so I want to make sure I point out that on this call we have Naim Kaur from up in Langdon and Joe Eichle from weed science weed science what have you decided your title is Joe weed management weed science extension weed scientists specialist yeah they want to call me a specialist not scientists so okay and then also Marisa Berti was able to hop on today and she's our cover crop and forage research faculty on campus so does anyone have any any questions that you that have come up or things that you're thinking about on your field or want to talk about a specific field that you are looking to manage? Hey Abby this is Roger down here in Dickey County and so I've got property up at in western Stutzman County we've got corn on it right now we hope to harvest here maybe next week and so we need to get rid of all the corn stocks, cultivate and do some rock picking which has been done in years so we want to clean up the field and then my concern was worried about erosion so I wanted to do a cover crop this summer and so you give me a couple ideas so it sounds like we should lean toward rye or oats or barley to do our cover crop your thoughts? Yeah I think you could do that so you're gonna so you get that the 2018 corn off of it what crop are you gonna go to next year that would be I'd kind of like to go to beans soy beans I'd like to get back into a soybean corn rotation which we haven't we haven't done for a couple years. Okay then yeah in that case I think some of the things that I've been talking about other growers with on corn acres that are gonna be harvested this year would be we'd be out to come in with something like oats on that field you could also see something like cereal rye if you want it to start growing but to stay low and then it probably some of it will over winter and you can plant your soybean into that next spring in case it's wet again that may be an option as well or you could do some kind of mix of oats and rye. Marisol do you know how much of that rye that we see this summer on PP ground will over winter and be there next spring? Yeah that's a good question. Rye will survive but it won't survive as good you know it you know usually winter annuals you know like rye or you know they don't like the heat of the summer so it's better to plant a little later but I don't know when you're planning to plant this cove crop but the later you're planted in the summer the rye they're better is gonna do over winter. Like brassicas like winter canola or dwarf Essex or anything else that might survive it's gonna have hard time surviving if you put it earlier like Camelina really doesn't survive as you planted September 1st but rye doesn't seem to be as sensitive to the heat but it could be a difference on different cultivars or varieties too so there are things to consider but like Gabi says if you're gonna you know depends what you're gonna plant next year but oats and barley work really well too. Now it depends if you have a lot of moisture on the soil my guess is maybe you do since you couldn't harvest the corn I would still put some sorghum maybe this summer if that's what you know the cove crop you want it is for removing water. Yeah the one thing I would stay away from would be turnips so I just keep hearing nightmares of turnips over wintering possibly in some of those fields and then getting stuck on your your cutter bar especially if you're harvesting soybean the following year so so yeah any of those grasses sound like they like they may work and sorghum might be a good idea too like Marisol is saying to to burn up some moisture I know what Western Stutzman is just drowning in water right now so yeah we have an amazing amount of water we have on on this land on this land we have done it's just a small farm of 500 acres but we have done no-till planting and I'm surprised with my renter and it has worked out surprisingly well okay so I was wondering if we go back to the no-till you know is there is there specific types of cover crops that would make the no-till next year easier you know I think so in Stutzman County some of the growers I work with I don't know if your soils more the higher clay soil over there for it's a sandy yeah correct but if it's if it's kind of variable like that I think you know on the sandier soil some of the farmers I work with in that area are are using things like oats and and peas and things like that okay those and it's working pretty well on the higher clay soils that they have they're using they're using rye so they're they want that moisture usage in the spring but they're watching it carefully and terminating it early if they need to in the spring to avoid too much moisture loss what else do they do over there they're also variable rate seeding rye so they're doing lower rates on the hilltops and higher rates down below and the ground so that may be an option to you to kind of head your bets on it is good because my land my land is rolling it's not it's not level to say the least but and again would you reiterate the type of cover crop to use again on this you were saying oats yeah I think oats would be a good bet for for sandier soils and using some cereal rye that they may overwinter on the higher clay soils okay yeah I think that would be a good idea or you could do you know you could do 30 pounds of oats and 10 pounds of rye you know you could kind of you know a little bit that way too so you have something over wintering but not not a lot have these growers also use barley um they haven't used as much as they've used rye and oats I think just because I was do better on oats for planting into the following year and they're both no tillers so I think they they just like the the residue on oats a little bit better than they do barley we bought this we bought this property about a dozen years ago and the organic matter due to poor farming practices was quite low so I'm trying to take some positive steps here to build up our organic content it within the soil so we're making steps slowly good well that that should help I mean we've seen some great things with and sandy soils with with using cover crops so hopefully that helps you build up some some of that and then you know short-season crops are a good idea too if this oil is really sandy get it out get the crop on get it off and then have more time for a cover crop to grow yeah this this was this was an old dairy farm and so after I bought it then I started plowing up the barnyard and planting potatoes out there and it's like the perfect soil for grown potatoes and it's it's amazing it's amazing what that soil produces and the soil out in the field tends to be you know the first year we grew beans out there we had 40 bushel beans and so it I go well there is potential for this quote worthless land as the locals described it to me well imagine what you can do with it then so we've we've had some good corn yields out there now one year we had we had corn hitting to over 200 bushels per acre in certain locations but you know I've got the sandy hilltops and the valleys or the bottom land is a lots of beautiful loam so the soil types on that farm five different soil types for what for one quarter section of land it's amazing so thank you thank you for your insight yeah you're welcome I have one question for Roger and Marisol so like I was thinking about what Marisol recommended Oates Barley and Sargam so say if you use that mix Roger question for you is what are you planning to do with the residue say whenever you are able to cut it because if you just leave the residue standing then there may be some problems for next year if you use that mix and the question same you know that the same mix for Marisol is Marisol would it be better if Roger say included legume in that for example field peas for so say if he cuts the residue would it help break down the residue for him to well I just mentioned the sorrow because of the water I didn't complete the mix but I really agree that if this is a BP mix and you you should have a variety of crops and field pea would be a great addition to having there not just grasses I was just thinking more of the water thing that you know I actually like your idea with that with that we include like at least five I always say the components you know all the mixes you have a cool season grass a warm season grass a cool season legume a warm season legume if you can or it's not too expensive and then something else brassica at least one brassica or some something else then you have all the functions that these plants do to the soil now the question too of putting you know I think your right name you could have maybe too much residue this is gonna depend if you have any possibility of grazing so I don't know Roger is there any oh yeah my renter has hundreds of cattle so we've grazed this land before just no bringing the cattle in to finish up any corn that's on the ground so yeah we still have that possibility oh in that case having sorghum would not be a problem if you can if the VP they continues to be number first you're gonna have to graze after that but then they will I wouldn't worry so much about the rescue but you got good point name I think well what's up to consider the same like Abby says I don't put turnip if you're not grazing it is the same same concept you know the mix has to change if you're not going to graze it to have less residue or huge turnips you know this year's first year I've seen so many cover crops survive in Fargo I've been 10 years doing the same trial of cover crops with 20 that some species and usually just winter rye or winter Carolina survives this year we have the turnip survive and just like she said the the bolster the roots are hard as a rock so if a plant that goes through those balls is they're gonna get stuck on the skin and drag it through the field and cause all kinds of problems so she's very right that you want to use things like a turnip you need to have grazing in the system radish is not so bad because radish melts away completely you know you will see the roots left and I didn't see any radish survive so radish does not survive the winter this this year would have been the one you really see what to rise or not because you know we have a crimson plover survive the more fessex kind of will have survived turnip, turnips, triticale, rye, Carolina, even some winter peas which I usually don't see there was this arrive this year so but yeah that's good Roger I think you should include a mix with some variety maybe that five different cover crops and try to keep it you know a reasonable price that's why I always said you'll be nice to have also one season legume but one season legume like cow peas or carrots I have a little bit expensive and so if you don't have that just having a cool season cheap legume like pea it's good okay we will try to keep I'd like to keep the keep the costs under $20 an acre so we'll see what happens yeah we did a calculator with Miranda me mehan and in Mary Mary Keena from Carrington they say a cost cover crop cost calculator and maybe you can send the link it's a link already available I'll look for it I I can ask Miranda but we could post that on the prevent plant yeah because it is a calculation price you know like an average price so it calculates more or less how much gonna cost you and then on the application you can change that the column to the real price once once you decide they're gonna buy it then you can switch the price or whatever it's gonna cost you and the sick company and they'll tell you but at least you can play with that making mixes they're gonna catch you less more less less than $20 an acre basic thing it's just we put all the cover crops on the list you you're allowed to put a scene rate you want and then the prices we're having there are the regular prices we we found on five or six different seed companies from last year so it should be pretty close but we like I said we it has the program has a column that allows you to put the real price once you you ask or quote the prices of the seeds from the seed company so I think that will help you to put things and change your rates and you know to keep you under the $20 per acre okay all right thank you all very much so Roger coming back you answered if you have the grazing option to me personally like barley oats a field peas and sorghum would be another option for you because I'm assuming if you're standing corn you have some water issues and we do so so that makes and then again what the mix Abby suggested would work best probably on some a spot but some of spots if you could see the utilization of this mix I was slightly worried about the residue but if you have the grazing option that's wonderful okay all right yeah that we do anyone else have a field they want to bring up and we'll brainstorm I really like this it makes me because we kind of excited to hear all the different options go around well a couple of years ago I went to the cover crop demonstration there at NDSU and that was quite enlightening and so I kind of put that in the back of my memory and so when this came up when this unusual growing season last year came up my thought was to return back return and explore for the first time the the cover crop on my land since we're not going to be able to seed anything this year so that's great it is I mean really on prevent plan I have a lot of you know different farmers where they'll they'll even though they'll seed most of the field into whatever mix they're going to use but then they'll leave a strip out there where they're just going to broadcast some different cover crop seeds to check them out and see what they like and what they don't like on a smaller scale and that those are that's kind of a fun way to to look at some different options and see see what things like Sun Hemp look like and what are the roots look like and is it something you want to manage or feel good about putting in a whole field so let me ask you one question to get the cover crop started we had thought of just doing broadcast do they actually germinate and root into the soil or do we need to disc disc in or till in some of the cover crop seeds you know with the larger seed like like peas if you're gonna have that in your mix I think that would you'd want to seed it okay and especially in this opportunity if you need to deal with some of the residue on that field but then come back in with a with a drill and seed the mix I think you get the best results and best coverage that makes sense yeah yeah because as soon as you if there are some gaps in the cover crop mix especially if you have a mix of grasses and broadleafs then weeds can come in those areas and then you've got to make a choice to spray at all your broadleafs across the field yeah okay sure okay well thank you thank you folks for this morning it's been very enlightening yeah you're welcome thanks for joining us see anyone else have a field that they're that they want to kind of throw out there with some options to talk through options I mean just to keep the discussion going we could make some points out of the discussion we had yesterday you know so that you know I know that it's going to be printed in crop and pest report but you know for the benefit of this group we could talk about some points like for example one thing which was a striking for me Dave friends and mentioned that like if we one option could be on PP acres for example not to do anything but then the chances are those acres will go into PP again next year so leaving them as this is not a good option you know so no I just think that you know some of the points we discussed yesterday if we could mention to this group too that would be beneficial for everyone I think yeah I think you know the biggest thing they came up was was the disease transfer between cover crops and the next year's crop and so we talked about club roots issues with having a brassica in your cover crop mix going to something like canola there's also I don't know if anyone has a copy of this but this Midwest cover crops field guide is actually really really helpful and there's some pages in here that I was looking at yesterday again I seem to have copies of this booklet everywhere which is great because I use it a lot but even nematode host susceptibility and cover crops is something to consider so if you're looking at things like like soybean you your voice your voice is kind of like a queen oh weird okay let's see is that but is that better is it just because I was turning my head maybe yeah no I don't know yeah it was weird you're in a connection your tree getting in the way yeah right slow patch of internet right there's what that was okay well so some of the things that I look at in this Midwest cover crops guide are they have this great table on nematode host susceptibility and I know Marisol you've worked on this some but for like say you have soybean cyst nematode and you have that concerns that in your field including things like hairy vetch field pea red clover soybean sweet clover those are all hosts for soybean cyst nematode so if you have pressures like that in your field you're gonna want to stay away from some of those cover crops in your mixes I don't know Marisol you've done some other work too with yeah we remember we did a worksheet the fact sheet last year for the cover crops that we being found you know here in in North Dakota and for research there are hosts for the soybean cyst I don't know we can get the flyer on a link remember we have one last year yeah I think I might have it on the prevent plants yeah it's because she has some other things that you should not mention in the cover crops that they were a little bit new like we know now the trinibs are host and we did not know that and so that's another one it's not a very strong host compared as peas and you know and other other legumes but it is you know what we've seen in the research that we're doing with cover crops and soybean cyst with whipping is that any possible host even if it's a low host will help the nematode to stay in the soil and increase the population we've seen that even people they're using resistant soybean varieties they still can multiply the population by six fold six times it still can increase it this nematode has a huge ability to increase population even if if it's a poor host okay so I think stay away from anything if you know you have soybean cysts in your soil testing for soybean cysts is important it will be good that you send the test because sometimes you don't know you have it and usually when the soybean cysts start showing symptoms it's because you have a lot of right this is they call a silent problem it won't show yield reduction it won't show symptoms well actually will show it will have yield reduction without you even knowing it of 10% or so but it won't show symptoms and so it's hard to know you have it so you suspect that you may have it I think a lot more people have it that they think it's nice to know because if you're a low levels it's good that you do practices to make sure it doesn't increase once you have really high levels like on the 10,000 we found sample we found a sample of a farmer it wasn't Minnesota's and they had 140,000 eggs and had this cute so you get the population like that it's very hard you know to get it back but if you are in a population this less than thousand you know try to keep it that way this is exponential growth if you provide host just almost like this COVID-19 you stay in the 2000 for a long time and all the sudden just goes up if the conditions are there right so if one one susceptible host you put in there and the other thing you have to consider a lot of the weeds are host too and I think there is a publication by Berlin Nelson in plant pathology they also list maybe we should do a little fact sheet with the weeds their host so maybe they'll be good to to have that handy too so here with Joe we control is important but in your house I've insist nimble it's more important because some of those weeds are carriers so they are the host of the nimble sorry I'm talking too much this Ken Nichols with the North Carolina Swiping Council I can remind farmers that we do have a program where they can test their soil the soil for SCN and if you get a bag from a county agent or Sam Markel it's all pre-addressed you send it in and you'll get the results so there's no reason for you not to test your soils just gonna catch a little time and throw it in the mail so that's very good Ken thanks for that yeah I think more people should test their soil because a lot of people have it and don't know do we have a link or Ken do we have a link or something where the farmers can go and and request a sample to sample you have a link or something I don't have a link they just need to contact their local county agent and the county agents have the bags okay it's run all through Sam Markel we're just the okay dollars behind the program okay that's good they are easily available Marisol they all they need to do is to contact your A&R agent in the county yep I even see them in our Langdon research center office you know so all they need to do is to contact the agents do you know Naim and Joe are our agents back in the offices for the most part now or are they still working remotely like like a lot of us most of them I would like to think are because our county our courthouse was closed here in Langdon but last agent call I had in on last Wednesday she was working here out of the office so I think most of the people are working out of the office it seems to be county by county but I think most are in the office and if I remember most it's by appointment only right now that you can visit them but that is a county to county difference so it's easy it's just a plan on calling ahead and making an appointment but most of them should be in their offices now any other fields that people want to talk about options on I see also we've got some good C company representation here too so I don't know if there's some things that that Chris Emily or Colin kind of want to talk about it seems like seed is available I see Emily just unmuted yeah sorry Abby I just hopped on what was are you talking about preventive plan yeah yeah so I just we talked to you're an option field in Stetsman County but I don't know if there are any updates from from you guys from the seed companies on on anything or availability or yeah I guess I can start off I we haven't really had anything change availability wise at all and not since last week when we had this meeting to nothing has changed for us but I would say we it's interesting because we've been getting a lot of calls for preventive plant seed needs from all over the state in areas of the state where we didn't think that there were issues so it's it's really interesting but one thing that we definitely see is that there is it's kind of challenging to make recommendations at times because there's no like one solution that we're really seeing I mean we put together some different ideas for people but there's just so many different things that people are trying to accomplish or things that they're trying to stay away from like I saw what you tweeted yesterday Abby about staying away from the radishes and turnips if you're going into corn next year and putting in some different stuff and I mean that's a great recommendation and you get you have people that are going down that route you have people that are trying to do stuff on the grazing side you have people that are just trying to do something cheap to help soak up moisture and then you've got some people that are trying to really address in the soil health concerns so I'd say you know like when you look at all the different regions that are talking PP it's just so different from one farmer to the next we kind of have started to see where where farmers have would normally be using some warm season stuff right now for talking about preventive plant like maybe some millets or sorghums or whatever it might be today and grass and we're starting to see some of them thinking about transitioning into the cool season stuff so that way they can make sure that they get growth later into the year I know one thing that people have been bringing up quite a bit too is the pain and grazing deadlines you know I think that's something that gets to be a little bit challenging for some of them and I think we're kind of blessed with what happened last year when they upped that deadline so it made it a little bit easier for some of them to be able to come up with some mixed ideas because then they were like okay I can go out there a month earlier that's gonna help me a ton so I I really wish well I kind of wish that that would just be changed indefinitely but that's definitely been one thing that has been a little bit challenging for some of them but availability wise I really I I haven't seen anything become an issue at all we do talk with a lot of other suppliers and suit companies nearly every day and you know whether it's us or some of them I I have not seen anything sell out yet or even come close to it so it sounds like there is a lot of seed out there that can be used for cover crops or for preventive plants so I don't think anything of there's anything real concerning about that from our standpoint yet good that's good I suppose a lot of the other states to the south got got things planted early so we wouldn't run into that same issue we have last year where it was just hard to get a lot of seed you come up with a mix and then you know the major component of it you you know the grass that the oats weren't available or you know something wasn't available to mill it so it's nice that this year we'll have more actions yeah yeah it's it is not like so far it is not like it what it was last year like you said it was you you couldn't get your hands on some oats or millet for some of these people and no matter where you were looking at I mean you could look all over the United States and you couldn't find much of that so it should be better this year for those that end up needing some preventive plant mix and that's the same way you know what we're hearing as well like the millets are in good supply I think one thing that could maybe be beneficial for maybe livestock guys is potentially utilizing Japanese millet or maybe in some saturated soils to be able to soak up that moisture because Japanese mill does work probably pretty well in that scenario and so they can soak that up and then be able to hate or graze it you know whenever that grazing deadline is yeah I think that's a good recommendation Colin I like the Japanese millet too even not too many people use it the other one is really good because it grows a lot you know people use a lot of oxen millet the foxen millet production is for grazing is very low compared to other like sorghum and others but Japanese millet yields more and also another one is the forage perl millet perl millet usually doesn't produce he sit here but there's some varieties of forage perl millet that they're very high yielding and they move a lot of water too we tested out some of those last year and I really like them so yeah and in a typical I guess your guys who are wanting to use Japanese millet they're usually you know planting like a cool season like a barley or oats and they're taking that off and then they're putting Japanese millet to get two cuttings off of it and then they're going back with either a you know like a with a wetter weed or maybe even a cereal rye too and just kind of keep that forage rotation to get as much tons as possible for their you know for their livestock Japanese millet I'm not sure why all these are called millet when they're complete different genus and species Japanese millet is not even close to the other millets this is on the same genus well I shouldn't say this but it's a barnyard grass yeah yeah but you know it's not weedy I've seen it and it grows really well you know I like it when when I seen it better than foxy millet and foxy millet it grows it doesn't produce much mm-hmm yes so Joe as a weed specialist what what cover crops do you want us to stay away from in our area they mill it right well I'm encouraged by the supply of millet it so it's really those years where it's like last year where we're scrounging for seed where it's more of a concern for contamination but if there's adequate seed everywhere then you know we have a lot of better chance of getting the more quality seed that has less contaminants so it's really hard to tell if it's a year-in-year-out thing that will have Palmer potentially show up with millet but I'm not as concerned when it's not a high demand I just always point towards annual regress don't like it yeah one thing I was thinking with millet I need to put this on the website somehow during the compilation of the weed guide there's a blank page that was our millet table so for actual herbicides that we can use a millet and still graze and that would be different than prevent plant but people who are still want to plant it as a as a forage I need to just put that table on the website any other thoughts or questions or I mean there was one one more point which came up yesterday that for example some people cannot get their fields grazed for example and if they planted their cover crops say in late July and produce it grows good and produces a lot of biomass some producers may be worried about the next spring so I thought it was a valid point for crop farmers and we should address that in my view if you if you can just cut the residue and as long as you have a good mix with decency and ratio everything will break down I would not encourage tillage because the cover crop roots will create those channels for the water and you know the PowerPoint or the presentation you made in the beginning I thought one slide was very telling the moisture use and 35 or 36 inch I thought that was the groundwater depth and if you look at that the bare soil the the water level the moisture level increased because it was coming close to the groundwater depth there's whatever the cover crop mix was it was it's still there lower than the bare soil so just so to prove that not only cover crop roots will use access moisture in the top soil layers but they can also lower the groundwater depth so to me more biomass can turn into organic matter as long as it breaks down during the winter and it's not a new sense in the spring plus it will they will dry down the soil and then in the roots structure will create these channels for the spring melt to go down so it will improve the infiltration so I just thought it was a very good point yesterday because not everybody has the option to graze and then they are what it oh what if if I planted and it produces more biomass what am I gonna do because you know everybody wants to plant as soon as they can in the spring so I thought I thought it was a good point yeah that is and I think you know some of that that residue also we talked about being good for snow catch yes not only is that good for having evens if you if you have a nice residue across the field good for even snow catch across the field so you don't have a pile up of snow and a low part of the field and making it even more wet but also insulating the field so that in the spring that water can move in faster because it's not frozen as deep so so that you have all that lighter residue on the surface and the temperatures may be a little bit slower to warm they're probably not as frozen as something without residue also so yeah I've been pretty impressed with with the roots that we've seen I think it was about the maybe the first year that I was here or second year that I was here that we had a lot of prevent plant and and some of those cover crops of people put out there I can't believe the rooting depth on them we did root root pits and tons of fields and it was just pretty it was amazing how deep the roots go and whenever you pick a mix if you're looking for for shallow rooted species and deep rooted species and and you're kind of you're getting all those soil layers you having some kind of root tapping into them to pull moisture I think it's really beneficial so I'm almost less concerned about what's above ground as I am about what's below ground and picking mixes based on root structures to get that that moisture removal so yeah those are really good points name there's also what I saw I was talking to a farmer after this last kind of round of prevent plant and and he was saying that there was a PP field the following spring right next to a field that had been had been tilled all summer and the guy was out there spraying it and he drove he was going just fine on that where that full season cover crop was in the PP and he was he was doing fine spraying across that and then he got kind of brave and he went over to the to the field or the part of the field that had been tilled all summer and his sprayer sank so it's pretty amazing what you can build up in one year as far as roots and soil structure and and keeping and building that soil I mean it's it's almost a it's not a free year but it's a it's a year where you can really ramp up the benefits in building soil in those in those fields and I guess you know one of the other conversations I had this week was with a farmer in the southeast corner and he had some prevent plant last year he used a barley barley radish P mix and I'm part of the field he had he had run out of peas or he felt like he planted him too deep or something where the peas just didn't establish on the prevent plant but he was saying this year's he's going across it putting soybean into the barley stubble from last year or the barley on the prevent plant that anywhere where he had peas he felt like that residue was just had just disappeared so it was kind of interesting to hear that too that the areas where the pea established and he had you know that lower seed and ratio material with his with his barley that it actually helped decompose some of that residue on the surface this is a long-term no-tiller so you know he's used to planting into a lot of residue but in this case he said it was just it was kind of pleasant to go through those spots where he had the peas established in it and it got rid of some of the residue and he said it wasn't a lot of peas I mean it didn't have to be a lot to to see that benefit so if you need to keep costs down by not including a lot of a lot of peas in the mix I think just some will will be some benefit but be sure to inoculate that's the step I always forget I plant these legumes there you know I planted some fava one year and I fava beans and I totally forgot to inoculate and I'm bummed about that because the nodules that they put on are so great when inoculated yeah that's a great point Abby and one thing too that we always kind of run into is that when it comes to a lot of the different pulses like the peas or edible beans I guess you can even throw soybeans in that mix too because that's when that gets questioned a lot is they all have different strains of rice that will be up for the inoculate so we do get a lot of questions about well I have some leftover soybean inoculate from whenever and I want to include peas or lentils or whatever it might be in my mix and I just use that it's like well no I mean if you want to throw it in there to get rid of it that's up to you but it's not going to benefit you and those peas aren't going to inoculate or infix a nitrogen so it's just I mean at that point it's pointless but we do get a lot of people will wondering about those things and soybeans is different from the pea lentil batch different from the edible beans the cow peas that's one really good thing to kind of consider too when you're talking about inoculating is just making sure that people realize that all those different crops even though they're similar in a lot of ways do require different strains of rice will be in the inoculate yeah next time I heard a seed from one of you guys remind me to inoculate I always forget well sometimes we forget to remind people too and that usually doesn't end well now Marisol we don't usually use clovers after after wheat in our mixes because you don't get enough growth in a full season is it worth including a clover and a mix or would is peas still a better better fit for us I think clovers they never work very well I think a full season they'll work better clean some clover but clover are expensive seed so I think they won't do any better than the field pea and the field pea is a lot cheaper so I don't see much of a benefit just because of the cost I've seen them grow better but the clovers in general don't grow very well in competition with others and the mix I've seen beautiful crimson clovers fields alone but when you put them in a mix you'll find them better than the story but I don't know how much actually they're contributing to nitrogen fixing or anything like that so so that's why I don't use them after the after wheat or for the fall there's just not enough time to for them to even grow but in the summer I you know I haven't you know in other states they love them they love crimson clover but I haven't seen it do really well here so that's for experience that we don't have the data but I never seen like fantastic crimson clovers but I know a farmer from North Dakota remember where he said that crimson probably very well for them so I think it depends on your area if you use it before and like it that's not you know it's not a problem you can use it but we I just haven't seen much a good performance from it do faba do I mean I love faba being in the fall but if you were to put them in a full season mix would faba do do well or is it still a little bit too hot no I actually we we planted in our mixes and it does it does pretty well but if you have like a grazing mix or hay mix it'll go on the first card and it won't regrow so you planted on the summer and then graze it mid-summer or you know July or August it won't regrow for fall regrowth now you planted like after wheat faba being that's really well it does like better cool temperature these are cool seasons but I've seen it you know we have it but it doesn't become a big percentage of the mix either again it's a price thing too you know if you want to keep the mix you know I love faba being because like Abby says it's actually demonstrated is the most efficient action and fixer of the annuals and they use it a lot in euro they use it a lot but I really like it too but this is expensive see this big so even if you put five pounds you're not putting them much and some rates are 40 pounds that's a lot of money and so yeah I think you know even if you'll be maybe it's not as good as faba being is a lot cheaper and it still fix nitrogen for you so you know all depends what you want to do I always said if you are going to graze it you can't afford to maybe spend a little more on your mixture because those animals are going to put a weight and they'll pay for your investment a lot faster that if you're doing this just for pee pee or soil health right where there is a benefit but it's not monetized so you don't see it on dollars but when you have animals you do see it and so I always said I don't know if Abby agrees with me that if you're mixed it will be for grazing I think you can invest a little more in higher quality and more seed that's a little expensive like faba bean or or some other other ones because you you will get the money back I agree with that do you is there anything that you need to stay away from if you're going to hay the field that would that we reduce the quality of the hay or that's a good question the thing is one of the problems you know with hay is is um dry the hay so um even some people useful sorghum crop for hay uh yeah it takes a long time to dry the stem you know especially if you get it to grow a lot so I think for hay I like the cool seasons grasses with legumes like oat pee barley pee things like that um brassicas are not good hay crops either so if hay is your purpose I would just stay more with the the cool season cereals and and peas now you could put some millets in there too for one season if it's the fall season because uh millets will don't have the problem with the stem of sorghum sorghum locks you know even if you cut it and let it sit on the swap to dry um this moisture is locked in the side of the the stem and unless you crack or condition the stems you know um it will it won't dry they won't dry and especially later in the season you know we don't get drying days for that so that's a limitation of um you know big growing species like sorghum for hay so but cool seasons mixed with legumes work great I don't know Naim you have um some recommendation for that I would only say that sweet clover is slightly more salt tolerant than feel peas if salinity is an issue um not it's not super salt tolerant but it's better than feel peas um but then I think there may be some problems when it comes to livestock so you know that that should be also kept in mind there are some issues of livestock bleeding or something you know I don't exactly remember the work right now but I think I think it's bloat yeah okay yep you're right so that that should be kept in mind but if you just start thinking about salts I've seen sweet clover growing much better than feel peas but if you if you do not have salt issues I agree with marisol keep your costs down and field peas will do basically the same thing one thing for grazing and or feeding and I could probably pull this out and send it to yabi but on page 125 this year for the week guide we have our 125 126 uh restrictions after herbicide application for a lot of a lot of our herbicides most of the that chart that we have is focused on the cash crops but for instance one herbicide we can use in field peas we have it listed there of days or weeks after application before grazing is allowed so if people do decide to use herbicides for weed control and then the grazing gets moved up to september 1 then that would be the big thing from a weed control standpoint is making sure you've had the allowed the allotted restriction between application and grazing or haying I can make sure those pages are listed on the prevent plant web page I think I posted the weed guide on there so so I can make reference to those pages under the link yes 125 126 okay so no those pages are important then there's a chart on the herbicide residual right for cover crops you know 115 that's that's more if you're playing planting two plants cover crops in the fall is you know that work is all kind of spring applied and then you know late summer early fall seeding um but there is some other stuff on there just kind of some at-risk combinations that's more for planting you're typical I would which could be useful if you've made a herbicide application got too wet to plant and then want to put in some cover crops you can see if what you had applied is on there is a risk for some of the cover crops you want to use it's been so wet the spring I doubt that's going to be the case for anyone but another way to kind of use that chart in other years are there any other weed resources Joe that you want us to be aware of or make available probably if we catch a rain day um compile some things from other colleagues and for prevent plant it's more or less limited just because it's kind of we all kind of go towards the same thing if keep it cheap there's some broad spectrum options that we can use um they'll probably take a project and maybe get an undergrad or something to go through labels but we could probably for future years pull together some grazing restrictions or other things on the crops we're using but typically for the weed guide we focus on the crops we're growing for grain more so than you know cover crop type option or prevent plant type situation but certainly if I catch a rain day in an office day then I could probably just mine and pull together resources for my other colleagues but it's all going to be pretty similar to what we already have well as soon as you do that Joe then we'll get really dry and we won't have to prevent plant right so maybe you should just start it. They say if I do it today it would just start raining out of nowhere. Also Abby uh the cover crop and pest um you know report uh Dave is putting together you know I know that um there are people on the list to read that but like if you provide the link on the soil health page oh yeah you know it's specifically on this topic and I was just thinking some people who probably don't know about crop and pest can still come to the soil health page and then read that. Yeah that's a good idea. There's a lot of good information in there. I think that the main message people should keep in mind that it all depends upon our objective. What is our objective when we are planting any cover crop mix on prevent plant acres or you know if you want to have full season cover crop that is very more important well and then the objective will include what do we want to get out of the cover crop mix this year and what is going to be our next crop um you know in 2021 unlike um you know we should consider disease issues weed issues once we once we have it's almost like you should have a board um you know drawing board in your kitchen or living room and then you make these columns then go through everything you know and price should be also one of the main factors and then you should go with the mix you want to do because just buying a mix for the sake of planting cover crop may produce some results but I I don't think so that it will serve all the purposes yeah I agree and it also it's important to to basically just pick your mix and go with it you know I mean I see a lot of people get hung up on well should I do this or that and obviously there's a lot of options and it can get kind of confusing but um but going back and forth and kind of wavering on it too it can be just as as crippling as uh as anything I mean so it's a really just pulling getting the mix you want seed it and just go for it um that's a good thing too and if you keep it simple if you keep it with things that you're comfortable managing and planting I mean we're fortunate here and in our region where a lot of these crops that we're using as cover crops are crops we've grown as cash crops so you know putting flax in a mix is no big deal for a lot of our farmers because they've either they have a history of growing flax on their farm where they have experience with it um you know same with with you know including a brassica in a mix because a lot of farmers have experience growing brassicas as a cash crop so um so I think we're we're fortunate in that way that we have a lot of opportunity to include things that we're the growers are you know farms are generally more comfortable including because they've grown it as a cash crop or their grandfather did or their you know great great grandfather so um so that's a real benefit so really just putting a mix together getting it ordered getting it at your shop so when it's time to seed it you can seed it um timing of seeding maybe we should talk about that a little bit too um it seems like if you're going to include something like a like a brassica like a radish that you would want to seed it after July 15th otherwise you have a chance that it would bolt and and go to seed um so seeding that type of mix after July 15th would be a good idea the other grasses and things like that you can seed um you can certainly seed earlier and get that management going I mean again it depends if we have a hang or grazing option I would say that we could go ahead and plant I would plant the cover crop mix as soon as I can because then you could actually pretty much get two crops out of it I've seen producers who planted their full season I'm talking about full season cover crop um but they have livestock so they grazed it and the regrowth they hid it in the same year if you do not have that option then you may want to wait a little bit but I would especially in the northeast I personally would like to see all the cover crops planted by the end of July because most years um you know you want to get something out of it you know whether it's a legume whether you know root growth by mass so that would be my view but the people who would be in the best situation are the ones who could either hate or graze it that would be the that would be the best thing hey good morning this is Kaitla and Payne sorry I'll turn my video on here hey I just I do have a question now that you're kind of talking about some of this grazing because we're trying to figure out how to graze on PP and so that would be I think you have to wait till that after November 1st so you would maybe expect it to be not alive by then or maybe if you've got some cool season crops but when do you seed that to get the best growth and so it doesn't kind of get too mature before you want to want to graze it and then the other question I guess with that is can you swath graze instead to kind of maybe help with some of the biomass well I'm glad Marisol's still on the call she gets off here in about seven minutes because she got on another one so Marisol do you have another question and you know I've had a question before and I'm thinking yeah maybe I'll change it today to September 1st like last year pretty much you're just going to have dry biomass and there in the Nutritie Valley we're going to be as high you know the sorghum will try will probably get frost and frozen in September so so you won't have very high protein you know forage but you have to think that you have to balance so what you wanted to function as a pp first right because I'm putting it for and then get you're just going to get the graze after after November 1st now you can swath graze it too I don't know if it gets any better I think the question would maybe go for for Mary, Kena or Miranda I I don't know if you really improve it maybe swath grazing you you reduce the stamping you know and losses where the animals walk through the you know the forage but I don't know if if we really help with that now you have more legumes in there the legumes are going to be dead and still be there now my my guess is like brassicas kind of like the kale types or hybrids like Winfred most of them will be alive even by November 1st because they can take I've seen them take 18 Farahats without a problem we're still green and they still even if there's no other stay green so if you if you are interested in grazing what I would do is to put some of those like passionate turnips or kale types more more resistant to frost and radish and turnips so the the the Winfred is having a real life because I've seen it survive until the end of November under the snow and and there are the forage turnips like the fascia the leaf types I so I would increase me this is I'm not sure because I haven't tried but my logic would tell me that I would try to reduce a little bit my sorghum and really hard stuff that is going to be very low quality in the fall and try to bump up a little bit some of the brassicas which I know they probably will survive for the fall and legumes I don't know you could have some forage peas and stuff but they're probably going to be dead by the end yeah so I think it depends how much balance you want to do if they don't change the date hopefully we know soon last year we're doing these meetings and then they announced that they changed it to September I don't know they will this year so yeah I know I'm talking with Frayn I think he said it's probably not going to happen this year but I'm thinking actually it was you know it was pervasive it was all over the state these flooding where they're planting I don't think they look at us so much they look at Iowa so if I want to really know I have problems there's a chance we have problems I don't care I think so but I don't know maybe I'm wrong but we're not as important on those decisions I don't think so yeah I I doubted a big move this year I think last year was mainly because of other states and actually those states are having that problem this year so so Marisol wouldn't it be better like keeping in view the november 1st date if we planted the mix you are suggesting say around the end of july or maybe early august that's a good point you know the pp is a plan where you planted the problem is um well if you decide to plant a little later which you'll be better for forage grazing um and but the quality is still going to be bad because they're going to be burned yeah well they're going to be dry it's going to be dry grasses now if you plant a little later where the chaos and turnips might be a little better uh because they're they're you know they're going to do really well on that time of the year now the problem is you plant your way until you lie then that means you're going to have to control the weeds during the month before that somehow you know herbicide you have to do something about it so i think the advantage of planting the whole pp early as early as possible is then the the pp is taking care of the weed control so you don't have to apply all those herbicides so i think again you have to balance of where your purpose but i agree with you the later you plant the better quality but you have to see it for november 1st and if you have really white quality while they were green and that green is going to be pretty much found by them so and as soon as it's going to dry they lose a lot of the protein you know so one more thing i wanted to mention it to you marisol you mentioned the trampling of the you know for uh actually that's actually better a lot of people who are into soil health they actually like it the hobes which you know presta mob grazing actually yeah you know i agree from soil health perspective i was just i was just i don't think he helps but that's good that's a good point you want some something and very yeah the message on the soil that's a good point i like it it actually breaks down quicker it depends upon the mix too but this is a good thing about this discussion i see things from the more animal and plant side you guys see things below ground so that's good that is good no that's a good point you know the the idea of the discussions too is that each farmer situation is different so the idea is that they decide according to their system their objectives their soil you know what they want to do their economics and so they kind of see you know what different things it's not like we haven't proved everything because it's impossible to prove everything but i think uh you can recommend some things that are logic and then they can decide it out of the balance they want and see how it works so do you think though marisol somebody is going to look at you know a high quality mix for grazing later i mean in those situations could it economically work out that you would seed something just like oats for have them out there for a couple months so you don't have to do the spray passes but then come back in and seed you know that full season mix into the oats later um with that that could be a you know possibility too you have to come in double seeding costs but i don't know it has it's all depends you know how it goes some people what they do is they put first a cool season like old pea uh you know and and then they put the other one but if you spread the plant you won't be able to use it so so the problem is to prevent it pee pee sometimes you know it's true it helps with the soil and everything but it doesn't help you with economics because you can't really use it so sometimes maybe maybe skip the pee pee and do it yourself and that way you can have the choice of grazing it and do a lot of stuff and give the money back so i don't know actually that's a very good point katelyn what you need to consider is how much money you're going to get through pee pee because say if you're not in that program and if you went with a very good you know economical mix you could actually even right now you could get two crops out of as long as you have the grain grazing or hanging option you could get two cuttings you know whether you graze it or you hate so that's a that's a calculation for you which is more beneficial for you and and that would be beneficial for soil health too but then it will also bring you more return i actually i'm starting to think now that what is a basic purpose of pee pee if it is soil health it doesn't serve any purpose why because they should let people graze our head i've actually told us to the even senators that crp you don't let people cut you know the root growth doesn't go deeper so what is the purpose here improving soil health or i don't know what else you know i cannot think of any reason so katelyn do your calculation because the other point is political and i don't know how long it'll take to resolve that but do your calculation because you may turn out to do better by not signing up for pee pee it'll be better for soil and you may make more money in 2020 yes it's something that people has to consider you know what i don't know it will be nice as some economists will calculate you know pee pee funny versus arrest if you do grazing and haying and the game you get on the animals and the soil health i agree with naeem i never understood why grazing or it's not okay and it's not on the it's not allowed i understand why you don't want grains so people profit wise but why grazing you know it just don't want you to make money over the pee pee but what's the point i think it would really help a lot of people do cover crops in the summer if the bb will allow grazing or hay so all right guys i have to go and get another meeting around the whole so thanks a lot for everyone participating this is always going to be really enjoy it bye thank you see you yeah bye so we convince you katelyn to go against the system and i don't know not yet but i i mean it's you bring up some good points i think yeah you just have to kind of sit down and figure out if that's really something that would work or not for for us and i know that we've talked about doing um on other lands some haying and then grazing afterwards so the some of that is in the plan um but some of this yeah pee pee just kind of think about it that way so maybe have to reconsider a few things and see see if it works and then convince rob as well or join us again to listen i mean each discussion is different i mean this week was was different from last week so um so i kind of enjoy these i get a lot of good information out of it but we will we will post this recording of today um on the prevent plant webpage through ndsu.edu slash soil health so if you want to listen to anything again you certainly can um naeem's going to get in trouble with the senators but this is um so if anyone wants to listen to this again you certainly can otherwise we will um i guess we'll just plan on getting together next week any last things naeem or joe just want to thank everybody for joining the call yeah one thing i thought about from the crop call yesterday is that a week from today is the final date for soybean and dry bean if i remember frame's comment yesterday so we may have a better feel the scope of pee pee across some areas that are still trying to get soybeans in over the next seven days yeah it's a good point so thank you guys we go next week's zoom and may go from the planning phase or early parts of planning phase to some action for some people yeah that's true as we shift into the late june ones yeah and i imagine that people will more people will sign on to um this has been really nice so 20 has been about perfect for for talking through different things so