 I can kick every time. Yeah. Yeah, we can. Yeah. I want you to be very switching. Very much. Hey, Bruce. Yeah. Some people are just spamming. OK. That's OK. We're worried about that. There's seven. All right, so. You're going to see me now? Are you logged in as, do you have admin over there? No. I don't have a login. I don't have a password. So, all right, so what's your name? OK, cool. Do you want us to put your name on the lower third? Excuse me? You want me to put your name on the lower third on the screen? Sure. Do you want to do that? Where it says, Jared, just change it, please. Do you know how to do that? Hang on one sec. Do you know how to do that? Is this Skype? Well, we're just listening to you audio through Skype. Yeah, but. OK, tell me how to spell your name. OK. So I got ADAM, S-T-R-A-D-L-I-N-G, right? Yeah, S-T-R-A-D-L-I-N-G, correct. Got you. OK. Hang on one second. See it? Look, look. See that thing's changed there? See how I click this? One second. Thanks for having me in there. Yeah, no problem. Oh, crap. I'm going to block some people in the other chat room. They're just making it way bad. Yeah, some dudes are spamming like crazy. Oh. Yo. Trying to block this guy. They're hosting one, right? Top one? Where is he? If you want to try this. OK. We're already recording in. You don't have to do anything, OK? I already have that set. Please put it back. Well, he's not on yet. Yeah, but I want you to put it back. OK, leave it like that. Put the headphones on. Keep the camera on. And we're ready. No, I don't want you to change anything, please. I already set it, OK? Yes, that's right. Please leave it. OK, can you just keep the camera on? OK. All right, you ready, Adam? I am. OK, cool. Chat room, can you hear Adam? Hey, chat room, can you hear Adam? Some no's, some yes. Yes, some not really. Yeah, I know. It's not the greatest. We're going to get better here, but we'll make it work. All right, so let's begin, ready? Right. OK, five, four, three. Hello and welcome everybody to the Bitcoin Show, episode four. Today, Manny, Mena and myself, Bruce Wagner, are on the line with Adam... Do we just switch the lower third? Hold on, Adam Stradling, is it? Hold on one second. Let me get it back to it. Adam Stradling, right? Yep. There's a programmer with... Tradehill.com and today's breaking news, obviously, is all about Mt. Gox. Mt. Gox has been hacked and it's a great concern to everyone. So, Adam, you're a programmer at Tradehill, is that right? No, actually, Bruce. I'm one of the co-founders, so I'm actually not doing the development. OK. But myself and Jared basically kind of put this business together from the beginning. And based on one of his partners. OK, sounds great. So, tell us... I mean, there's tons and tons of questions flying around about what's going on with Tradehill and... I'm sorry, with Mt. Gox. So, what's your take on it? Well, I mean, first of all, if you don't mind, I'd just like to say that, you know, we are... we are sympathetic to what we're doing and we are sympathetic to what Mark is probably going through right now. And we understand that he's obviously put a lot into this over the past and he's been a member of this community that's done a lot to build it up. And, you know, whether or not they trade with us or some of the other exchanges that come up, you know, it's important that Mt. Gox continues and does well. And I think we all face similar issues going forward. So, I hope that Mark is right. We will say that Mark did give us a whole bunch of information for us to cross-reference potential, you know, basically people who could have been involved with this and where our programs are looking into that now will be in communication with him on that. So, we thank him for that and we'll be looking at that closely. Wow, that's good. And so, what about people, I mean there's word in the forum that not only the email addresses, but also the hash or the passwords were in the original file, but now people are claiming that they have plain text copies of people's passwords. So, what can people do about that? What do you suggest that the public do about that? Yeah. Well, you know, I have to, you know, my technical capability is, I mean, to speak about some of the more details of technical capabilities, that would be something that we're actually going to make a statement on later in our current systems, but I mean, traditional passwords security, you know, part of that relies with the user in terms of choosing, you know, kind of strong passwords and then, of course, we froze our site and recommended people change their passwords and have, you know, frozen withdrawals and deposits until we can ensure that there are no problems on our side. You know, so, you know, there's, I mean, there's things that can be done on both sides, you know. Okay, so, I mean, I don't think it's in anybody's interest at all for there to be only one exchange site, obviously. Everybody kind of wants competition as Jared has said and it's important that we have alternatives to do trade, right? Yeah. So, you feel the same way? Yeah, I mean, you know, the, you know, the reality situation is, is we're in a business very similar to, you know, or what's becoming to be very similar to what a lot of banking institutions face and, you know, they still have problems themselves. I mean, it was just recently MasterCard, I believe, found that they had gone hacked. A lot of information was taken. So, you know, security is a big issue, but you know, it's you know, we all, we're all thinking, and Mark, he obviously has started this and, you know, we're dealing in a new arena. So, it's not, you know, we don't recommend to people when we put this in the observer article, you know, don't bet the house. There are issues and we know that this time, you know, MT Gox was a big target because a lot of the money coming through there and it is possible that, you know, people could you know, target us soon. And as we post it on the form, you know, we're going to do a security audit. We're going to give people information on our current system and you know, we just want to be transparent and work on, on focus on security and making that, you know, dealing with that issue because now that the Bitcoin has a you know, a real tangible value is being used and this economy is growing, then the security of, of this money is going to be a growing issue and I think this is you know, this is a big, big example of it. Absolutely. The you know, a lot of people are asking things like I mean, I know you don't know directly, but people are questioning, why does MT Gox seem to have so many, you know, security flaws? Is it you know, is it the coding? Is it the responsibility of the coder? Is it just that it just wasn't up to snuff as far as the amount of volume that they're handling or just the amount of attacks from all different angles or what do you, what's your take on that? Do you have any idea? Yeah, I mean, I don't know what exactly their security paradigm is and we really wanted to basically bring our program, our program to the show tonight and he was more than happy to do that to talk about what we're doing. Unfortunately, you know, it's been a pretty crazy day. We've been getting a lot of emails and we had them on the line here, but we couldn't, we couldn't bring them in. So I just think in general the, the entire business needs to take another evolutionary step and you know, security is going to be a part of that. We hope to be able to work with the community to you know, ensure that, that we provide that for our service and you know, and I mentioned on our post, I post a lot today. We introduced ourselves today. All of our profiles are online, who we are. We basically are just going to put forth our best efforts to you know, ensure that that business is conducted appropriately under the principles that we set forth. So, you know, that's I think, I think in security is going to be a big issue. So I had recommended in the forum that we, we kind of worked together to set up a task for force where we set up a central place where people could come up with thoughts on better ways to do security. Maybe potential ways to hack down some, to track down some of the thieves. And you know, maybe a spot with like a WikiLeaks where if anybody knows anything, they can you know, put forth an answer anonymously. You know, and this came about because we were actually contacted by the person who was lost a significant amount of money two days before out of Gox and then we were contacted by another person also who said that they had been hacked. So we just formulated that idea and said it would be a great thing for people to be to participate in. This seems to be a problem. And then you know, what do you know, here on Sunday, you know, this is, this is arisen. So, you know, that's, I mean, that's kind of what we're, what we're thinking right now. Yeah, I know you probably, I mean, unless you have some inside information, you may just be speculating, but a lot of people ask, like, why, I mean, why was the cracker so stupid, apparently? Like, like if somebody, apparently, there's all kinds of theories running around, like the person had access to this data for three days and why didn't they just slowly steal money a thousand dollars a day and not say anything. If people, you know what I mean, it's like, and then suddenly also there were the rumors that he was trying to sell the list, just like a day before and then all of a sudden published it, it's it seems very strange the the course of events. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I know that NovGox actually has that thousand dollar a day limit on withdrawals. If you're not, if you don't have ID on file, which might actually have saved them, that might have been actually what saved them in this case. Right, right. So, yeah, I mean, these are great questions, you know, why did it happen? How did it happen? You know, what could have been done differently? And, you know, how did it happen? Now, I've been watching the forums closely as people know, you know, over the past week, as we put in our post, we were just basically trying to make sure that we were delivering for our customers and we didn't have as much time to be on the forums. And, you know, so there's a lot of things going on, things, people saying a lot of different things on what actually happened. So, I don't know if the verdict's out on the reality of the situation. You know, personally I've seen quite a few different things, so I'm not sure what that is. So, I mean, I'm not sure if I could comment on what exactly happened until there's a better kind of diagnostic that occurs. I know Flaker saying there's different rumors people were in there, they already did. Obviously, there was some evidence and signs of this, right? Right. So, in the future, you know, maybe it would be advisable if one site or one exchange does get hacked. I mean, especially for that big amount, just shut it down, right? Right. I mean, at this point, we don't see, we obviously look in close area system. We don't see any evidence anything's been compromised on our site. And we're confident in our current level of security. But also, we're new. So, you know, I don't want to be here and say that, you know, we're equivalent to anything like Goldman Sachs. I mean, that's not the reality. You know, but we're confident and we've double and triple checked our systems. We've slowed up the process to ensure nothing going on that looks fishy. And, you know, security is going to be a huge thing going forward. And we really hope that, you know, people in the community can speak to each other about it in an objective manner because obviously there's just looking at the forms. There's been a bit of, you know, contention on who's doing what. But I think it's something we all need to deal with if this, you know, if we're going to make this partner pro, if it's everybody. I was asking on the chat rooms they wanted to know oh, I'm sorry. They wanted to know how would they be able, what are you guys doing different? How are the passwords being stored? Is there any hashing going on of the passwords or any salting as they call it? That was one of the more interesting questions and then when would Trade Hill be opened back up? Those were the two big ones. They wrote a lot of questions at you, but can you hear us, Ed? Can you hear everybody? Okay, good. Yeah, so anyway, another question I have on Mt. Gox it seems like this is becoming a pattern where they're brute force attacks on users' passwords. Because people are just not treating it seriously and they're just using the same password as they do on their email or they're just putting a simple, you know, Mama Puppy password and they're just brute force attacking to be coming from. I wonder if there's a way to require a long, strong password and even require it to be changed every 60 days or something. What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, to answer his original question about the technicalities of the storage of our passwords I don't want to purvey any inaccurate information, so I don't have a clear answer on that. However, what I will do is we will speak right now, after we get off and like I was saying, we're going to have the program on this but because of the way we merged these calls it wasn't possible. We've been going having a lot of business over here going on. I will get an answer on that in terms of password security. Okay. And what was the other one? Oh, we better be back up. That I actually can't answer effectively either. I need to basically speak with our lead programmer and see what he wants to go live on this. One of the reasons that you want to halt things is because there's a fear that people may have used the same password on both, which is probably very, very likely. And that's a very prudent thing. I think that's a very good move on you guys' part. That was absolutely one of the reasons. I'm sure there's been reports of Gmail getting notices because they're assuming that's their Gmail password and they're trying to hack into their Gmail accounts and all that. So obviously anybody who's listening to this, make sure that if you've used that password for anything anywhere, change it immediately. Yeah. And obviously that's what we've asked to do. So with your question in terms of password security, I think it's a little bit of people with knowledge coming in and choosing their secure passwords and having them not being in more than one place to many of the same things. But of course if we want Bitcoin to be used by people who are not necessarily as tech savvy, then I think that's a great issue to bring up because we have people who come to us and we really have to explain to them what Bitcoin's about and we take the time to do that and we have the people working with us who are willing to do that in our model and so you kind of have a couple different types of customers here. So whatever we can do on our end to help the kind of non-tech savvy customer use this more effectively, then that will be excellent and I think that will be helpful for everybody and helpful for us and then for tech savvy people I think it's just a bigger security matter letting them know kind of where we're at right now and what our plan is going forward because I think the reality of the situation is as Bitcoin grows and if Trade Hill grows and continues to do well then we will definitely become a target of attacks and we need to be prepared for that. So that's kind of our view. How many programmers do you employ and what is their experience level with this sort of thing? Yeah, so like I put it in the forum our senior programmer used to work for a start-ups commercial spaceflight company based out of Los Angeles and he's run a series of internet-based businesses and has over 300 iPhone apps really credentials, comes from a cognitive science and computer science background and basically did all the software design for putting rockets in space and those rockets they put four to six up right now at this point obviously hasn't been with them for maybe a year and a half I think, I might be corrected on that. And then of course we have Francisco who's on the profiles there and he worked for one of the largest retail commercial banks in all of the US everybody would know him if we mentioned who they are but obviously I can't for confidentially reasons in his contract and he was on their database engineering and data analytics team and they were actually all using and dealing with high net worth customer data very sensitive data of all of this bank's most wealthiest clients so those two combined are basically our kind of lead people we put on our profile out there showing the four partners we're all pretty much working full-time on this and then we do have some support people who are working with us but we're really not commenting on the number of people that we have working on that and that's basically just private information for us we're more than happy as we go on further to give you more credentials on our lead programmers and then of course on our security setup going forward. And are you guys planning on disabling user accounts after an X amount of incorrect tries? I'm sorry, what was that? If you guys are planning at all to disable user accounts after an X amount of invalid tries or incorrect tries. We're how we're currently handling that actually hold on here he's messaging me okay I actually don't know how we're currently handling that but that's another question in terms of user accounts cycling user or user accounts right? Just trading accounts because what if somebody is trying to log in to a compromise user's account from Mt. Gox what if they're trying to go on Trade Hill and see if he has any funds in that Trade Hill account after an X amount of tries would there be a plan to disable that account at least temporarily? That's pretty typical of most sites that you use I personally have tried that functionality and I don't have a direct answer for that and I don't want to say that that is inaccurate so I will get that answered immediately and we will make a post on that immediately too my assumption would be that that's correct but that's purely assumption at this point I got a question for you how do you feel about the idea of in an emergency situation like this Mt. Gox actually decision to reverse the trades to roll back the clock on those trades yeah yeah I mean that's also an issue that's been up in the air I think in general if they find something that isn't in unison with the rules set out the rules of the game with the exchange then you should have to reverse that that's my initial thoughts about that I would be interested to look at how different exchanges across the world actually handle those situations as you know there was a flash crash that happened on May 9th I believe this year and I know that there were some situations where people actually didn't revert a lot of trades weren't reverted so I'd be happy to hearing a discussion around this in the community on what would be the best option right there's probably pros and cons for both but fundamentally if somebody comes in and does something that is not ethical or within the game of the rules I think that we should make best efforts to right the wrong of people who have been harmed by that and I think that's kind of more of a fundamental principle but there might be beneficiaries on both sides of that equation yeah I mean I'm sure a lot of people are very unhappy about not getting those 10,000 bitcoins at 10 cents a piece right they were very happy when they got them and having it reversed but it's not really like I say it's not really fair in equitable trade so it kind of has to happen I mean in a situation like this you know people have to watch the system 24 hours a day too it's not just being able to deal with it but it's literally like being a fireman if something happens you never know seconds count right yeah I mean absolutely and that is one one thing that we we always have somebody on board with us at all times looking at what's happening so that's good for us I mean I don't know 100% how many people were working with Mark so I don't know how that was set up but I know with us we have enough people right now where somebody is constantly on on board with us almost at all times during the day as you know people probably seeing we've been answering emails at 3am so we're here so do you have somebody around the clock 24-7 watching for things like that well I mean at this point we haven't assigned that task to somebody to watch this 24-7 but it's not something that we've done I mean I think we've kind of painted an appropriate realistic picture on our posts we are four people four partners we think our credentials are good I mean we've all been successful in our ways working in banking and finance I've worked with some of the top investment banks my largest consultant client right now is one of the top 10 private corporations in the world in fact I'm working on a project with them to set up a major exchange right now so a completely different thing but an exchange that basically works with all the big boys all the real big banks and security, liquidity posting collateral kind of all these more you know advanced things that go into clearing and execution is what we're looking at so you know right now we haven't applied to have someone on that and we've really just been hustling to make sure that we get our clients what we need over the last week and a half since we opened up and frankly you can see your profiles, you can see who we are we can see your backgrounds it's all relevant and we didn't know it was going to be this successful and we're not even there yet we came in maybe started doing this, planning this about three months ago getting this set up we ended up going live a couple days before Black Friday and we just hustled to make sure we got everybody what they needed so are we doing our best? yes, can we improve? absolutely do we think that we have the skills, ability and values to execute on a higher level and evolve this? absolutely so that's our situation and we hope that our clients can view that as us being us and make a decision if they want to continue dealing with us and work under the premise that we're going to be transparent and forthright with them on all our dealings do you feel that Trade Hill is more secure than Mt. Gox right now? I would direct the answer to that one, because I don't know I don't know the level of security for Mt. Gox obviously it hasn't been that great but the function of security is also function of the skills and ability of the person coming at the system and until we know exactly what that took then I'm not sure if I could compare our pro-riber says he's confident in what we have going on and that there's an opportunity to do much more with security and make it more advanced obviously with this much money going around so we can make another formal statement on that too just a straight up comparison of Mt. Gox versus us what do we know why do we think either now we're more secure and back up with some technical details we're more than happy to make a statement on that very soon right, yeah I think a lot of people are interested in the technical details because I don't even know what a SQL injection is but it sounds pretty bad and there's a from Mt. Gox earlier this week that the password field with the login screen was vulnerable to SQL injection and so on you just revert the transactions and you restore from a certain restore point back in time the question is what else has been changed and when did this actually first happen could some code have been planted in there to allow a backdoor all sorts of security issues Bitcoin used to be just a fun little hobby and it was pennies we were playing with now suddenly it's Fort Knox right suddenly we're serious well and you know I just want to say I know there's probably some technical people pulling their hair out at my answers right now but you know I assure you guys that if you guys sent us questions and you know we've written these questions down we'll answer them for you and we'll give them to you with accuracy I have Jared here with me, obviously Jared's been on the show before everybody knows him for a while on the forums a friend of mine for 10 years we obviously started this together I'd like to let him speak right now so here he is hey Jared hey Bruce you survived? I woke up this morning and I said you know what finally I can relax it was my birthday yesterday thank you I slept about 7 hours and then I checked Twitter and I said actually I'm not going to say when I said but it's okay I guess today I'm not going to be able to relax so I don't want to sound like we're really happy about this believe me I mean obviously we're going to benefit in some ways but this is not good for Bitcoin and we're doing everything we can to help everybody out here I mean I see that it's really it's actually a beautiful thing that the community pulls together even when you're so-called competitors and people assume you know the worst sometimes but it's really beautiful thing to see people pulling together even when people are theoretical competitors because everybody cares everybody has a huge vested interest in the success of Bitcoin and Bitcoin is still so new that it's vulnerable right? exactly exactly and I've been following Bitcoin for I don't know about a year and that's the thing that's really surprised me the community is just so strong it's amazing and I think that's my biggest fear and things like that is as it grows the community will lose control of it as it becomes more mainstream just for some preface Jared is one of the founders of tradehill.com they were asking that on there so I just thought I should point that out so there you go okay cool so I mean how are let me put it this way what would you say to people who are wondering what is tradehill going to do differently than Mt. Gox how serious are you taking security? we're taking it very seriously like Adam said earlier we're a huge target if you think that people are not attacking us you're crazy if you think people weren't attacking Mt. Gox as soon as it had any real value behind it you're crazy so it's very very important I'd say it's our top priority obviously it takes precedence over everything else we're continuously evaluating it like Adam said we're having a third party audit come in we're going to make all the information public and available we believe in transparency one thing I can say that we are definitely implementing soon is a as a second I can't remember the technical name before I'm not a I'm somewhat of a technical person but I'm not a programmer like the other guys we're going to provide another means of authentication be it something sent to your email address or a cell phone, a text message something like that there's just too much money it's just too liquid it's not reversible on the bitcoin transfers things like that so we're definitely expanding on that and that's going to happen quickly we can't wait okay that's a great idea obviously Google and a lot of businesses are using that dual authentication with a cell phone text message coming back and all that I don't know how that works internationally but at least in the US that could be very secure well it's actually not that bad internationally I know Google actually uses it internationally and I actually use it down here in Chile on my cell phone from Google the other thing is it's going to be optional we're going to highly encourage it but it's definitely going to be optional we make it available it's free we suggest you use it but if you don't want to we're not going to force you to just speak loud because the mic's over there for Skype already no I just want to ask when something like that would be implemented because I know that's on a lot of people's minds right now is strengthening security not only from your end but from the user's end as well even though you know we need to also make sure that your end is secure because you know the user end isn't such a big factor but it definitely is a factor well I think the user end is definitely a big factor I think it definitely needs to be more education in the community I think one thing that's really simple but I'm going to implement tonight we'll be putting up a warning that says use a complex password it should be at least this many characters and it should use number and letters because a brute force attack account name is really not that tough and we honestly can't do anything about that if your password is Bruce Bruce and somebody sets a dictionary attack on it it's going to come back pretty quick as far as implementing the other more advanced features as quick as possible I mean we're on it right now and it can't wait so I want to say days but I don't want to promise you a real specific day just in case you can't reach it and what about a lot of people want to know exactly how the databases are being stored what kind of encryption is involved and what kind of security measures are being taking place you know not enough to sort of compromise your security but enough you know to give us some confidence that there's some people that are talented in what they're doing do you think maybe sometime soon that we could get somebody on there and because I know that you guys don't want to say anything without compromising yourself so maybe one of the technical people would be able to help us with that because I think that would put a lot of people at peace of mind well like I said I'm not a programmer but I am a little bit more technical than Adam now if you want to talk about finance you can talk about quantity of finance analytics and all that stuff but they're definitely encrypted none of them are clear text and I'm not sure exactly which algorithm or how they're salted or anything like that which would be giving a little bit of information away but they're definitely encrypted and you're going to have a real tough time breaking them what does salted mean I don't know what that means I'm even less technical I guess it has something to do with hashing I don't want to say anything because I'll probably get it wrong it's related to hashing related to hashing alright so these are all just real security questions the big banks must have teams of people that this is all they do right and one big part of security is trying to keep it as simple as possible as well the more moving parts you have the more things can go wrong like I said like Adam said our lead programmer he wants to maintain a low profile but I think eventually he's going to come out he can't stay secret too long but he's extremely qualified he's taught these things he's been doing these things for years this is not new to him and if any time he has an issue he definitely gets on the phone and he calls up people that are more knowledgeable than him in certain areas and speaks with them I am 100% confident in our system and I've just been impressed with him since day one hey Jared would you happen to know what kind of encryption is being used for the passwords it's like SHA or something similar I'll be completely honest I don't know he could tell you if he was here if he wanted to and then another big they also want to know about the options and future trading what about it like is it coming it's coming and definitely Adam is the guy for that I'll be completely honest we're concentrating on security we're concentrating on providing good customer service to the people we do have we're doing things like on the automation for our payments we manually verify every single one I've personally verified over a thousand payments just to ensure that the system is running correctly that's the kind of thing you don't want to let it run wild until you're 100% confident that it's going to work so basically we've only been up 10 days and we're basically manually checking everything watching everything if it's automated or not just to make sure that we're 100% confident before we let it go naturally once that's done we'll begin looking at more things like options futures and other types of trading like that also I believe higher volume they would benefit more from higher volume so we're going to roll them out in time also at this point I would say the average user isn't really demanding them obviously people do want it but that's definitely an advanced feature yeah definitely an advanced feature the most important thing is securing what we have it takes a lot of work and skill and all that to create an exchange site anyway but to make it secure seems like a huge challenge I don't know how you guys do it but you know it seems like something that not your average programmer would be able to take on exactly and the fact that it's bitcoin brings in a few other things that make it even more scary the fact that the transactions aren't reversible you could spend a bitcoins out and they're out there so little things like that make it a little more complicated it's a new area it's new ground but like we said before it's a priority security is top concern no matter how nice you are in emails no matter how good your commission rates are and all that at the end of the day if the money goes poof do you how often do you guys talk to to mark over at mount gox we haven't really talked to him that much I shot him an email right after this and I said hey we'll help you with anything you can and he wrote me an email back that was really helpful I think we might have exchanged a few posts on the forums months ago but honestly we haven't been that in touch and that's something I'd like to change I definitely don't see this as the end to mount gox I think mark has provided a great service and I honestly see him as a pillar in the community which is I think everybody else would agree people are rallying around him supporting him so that's definitely one thing we would change I think everyone could benefit by a better line of communication we are competitors but this is a unique market where we actually encourage competition and I think it's just good for the community and as long as there's more sites that show up that are reputable secure and open and transparent I encourage even more competition some people have asked is this kind of opportunistic thing for trade hill because there's some sort of a promotion going on in the forum or whatever and how do you answer that you know I know that we have you on right now and when this is really about mount gox the reason we have you on is because mark is not available he's in Tokyo and people have to realize that it's very early in the morning actually when I reached him he was on his morning commute to get into into the office so he's going to be actually here momentarily we should bring him up on the phone soon but but you know really what do you have to say to to mark and mount gox about all this I mean we're willing to help any way we can I mean I feel for him I mean this is we feel confident in our system but this is our biggest fear I mean it's it's rough in regards to in regards to your previous question about the opportunistic timing or perceived opportunistic timing to be completely honest Adam and I spent a couple hours last night working on the profiles and we were going to release them last night and then and then we said hey let's just release them tomorrow in the morning so we can be there and answer the initial post you know because obviously a lot of people are asking who we are and what not I've heard everything from we're CIA and I was responsible for the the death of Yende who was the Chilean president killed in 1973 I believe you know so no it's not true and we wanted to be there to respond to the immediate post unfortunately we released it right about the same time had it been a few hours early it wouldn't probably have looked suspicious but we've definitely got documents and I'll send you Bruce if you'll vouch for us that show that the everything was written last night what do you mean everything was written last night oh you mean the process who we are our profiles and everything else right yeah I totally believe that I mean obviously you didn't anticipate that this what's your take on why this hacker broke in and had access for three days and didn't either leave it a secret or why they took two days to disclose it well here's the thing I honestly I mean Mark's a good guy and I trust him I believe what he said and I honestly don't think that if he knew there was a hacker in there he wouldn't have shut down so my opinion I just I just I don't think that they were in there running around loose with Mark knowing it and him not acting on it that's just that's just crazy I would be want to be really disappointed but too I just don't believe that he would do that my take on the way he acted there's a thousand dollar limit which as far as I know still runs with the bitcoin as well so as of a couple days ago if you wanted to take out bitcoins you were capped at roughly 50 right at $20 a piece my guess would be he said okay I could take a thousand dollars out or I could take 50 bitcoins out or I could do a massive sell off drop the price next to nothing and then transfer out a large amount of bitcoins whether he was actually pulled it off I have no idea I sure hope not I'm assuming Mark would notice something like that and put a stop to it if he did I would imagine he would say I could transfer out this large quantities of bitcoin at one cent or whatever and the price will rebound and even if it rebounds only a dollar or something he has a lot more bitcoins that are worth with a lot of money so I'd imagine that was his attempt to get around in Gox's system and I sure hope it doesn't work but I don't want to speculate on what exactly did happen because Mark and I haven't talked about that and it might have just been limited to a thousand dollars which I hope it was I just got a question over here somebody asked does trade hill have a limit on withdrawals and then the event of a massive sell off the event of a massive sell off how would that be handled that's a good question no we don't have we don't have a massive we don't have a limit on withdrawals but if we see something fishy going on we'll just shut the exchange down immediately and then look at it and say hey did somebody get hacked did somebody dump a large amount if we're going to discuss more about this we'll be open within the community I think it's a community issue as well because this isn't a market like we're used to it's different it's small one person can have a lot more of an impact one person can affect the value a lot more so it's something we definitely need to talk about as a community and see what the community wants does the community want us to interfere with the market manipulate it in ways like that or they want us to just let what happens what if an early adopter legitimately decides to dump 20,000 bitcoins does the community want him to just sell him off cheap and go or do we want to try and try to affect that there's a lot of opportunity for discussion some people in at least one person maybe repeatedly as asking in the chat room what about bounties for security on trade hill I guess what they mean is offering a bounty for someone who can hack into the system is that a good idea I think it's a fine idea because as it stands it essentially already exists the bounty if you can hack in is what's inside so offering something it's almost like saying well if you can get in we'll give you a little less but we did that in the beginning and we had a lot of people look and we had some pretty skilled people give it a shot and nobody was able to collect but every time you make a change you have to re-evaluate and we're definitely bringing in more professionals to do that sounds good well I think we should take a break now and get up to see if we can get Mark on the phone in Tokyo this is about the time so thanks for joining us Jerry that's Mark from Mt. Gox so if you want to hang on Jerry you can stay on the line with us if you want and I'll get Mark on with us sure thank you so we'll take a break right now and Ed you want to stop recording okay did you stop broadcast Ed