 amazing meeting. My name is Brian Thompson. I am the Outreach Coordinator for the James Randy Educational Foundation, and this is a workshop on supporting skepticism around the world. We're going to be talking about a lot of different things, but the main point of this workshop is to let you all know what you can do to support skeptics who are doing really good work in countries other than ours. It's something that we don't really talk about as much as we probably should, and these two gentlemen will provide some really good insight on that. First things first, though, if anybody has a question or comments, subtle rebuke, just feel free to speak up. We're going to have to repeat what you say so that it shows up on the recording, but there's no... I'm going to give you a couple of opportunities to ask questions about things that we've talked about, but if anything springs to mind, please just raise your hand or shout out or whatever it is your parents taught you to do. Also, if you see me looking at my phone, don't worry, I'm just really bored and I'm texting everybody I know. No, actually, I'm just keeping time to make sure we don't run out. We can start by just introducing the panel. I'm going to let them introduce themselves, so let's start with Leo. Well, my name is Leo Ibe. I'm from Nigeria. Currently, I'm in Germany doing some research work on witchcraft accusation in Africa. This is my first time in the U.S., and this is the first time I'm taking part in this amazing meeting. I'm so excited to be here, and I'm looking forward to sharing ideas and exchanging views with all of you, and a broad rune ties of friendship and partnership. Hi, my name is Eran Segev. I'm the president of Australian Skeptics in New South Wales. This is my third time. I'm very happy to be here. Apart from being the president of Australian Skeptics, I'm also an occasional contributor to the Australian Skeptics magazine, The Skeptic, and to the Skeptics on Podcast. And you two know each other previously, right? Yeah, we have met. Leo visited Australia recently, and he's been writing for our magazine for years, probably about 10 years now. You may have also seen Leo's writing on randy.org, he blogs from time to time about the problem of witch burning in Africa and other parts of the world, too. So let's start by talking about some of the accomplishments that you two have made in your home countries, Leo, Africa, and Iran in Australia. Leo, what are some of your accomplishments as a skeptic in Africa? And I know that Africa is not a country, please. Well, we have accomplished a lot, yes, but not to the point that we can compare that with what you're doing here. So one of the things we have tried to do is to bring skeptics together, yes. Because the word skepticism cannot promote itself. Skeptics will do that. So what we have done, one of the things we have done is to organize meetings, conferences and lectures to bring skeptics together and to present skepticism to the Nigerian public. Yeah, I'm sure that some of you are aware of this woman, destructive campaign. Yeah. And I want to thank fellow skeptics in the U.S. and around the world who drew attention to her coming, which never happened. So one of the things we also do is to draw local and international attention to the work of which hunters, like Helio Nopabio, and to get the world to understand the danger we face by allowing such people to continue to spread their poisonous message. Next slide, please. Yes, this is another of our programs targeting, quote, barren woman. I don't understand that very well, but that's what they use in Nigeria. These are vulnerable women, yeah. She advised them to, if you want to know the sex, you want to have a child and things like that. So we shine the light on the activities and get the world to understand the kind of danger they pose to the world. Next. That's another one. There is this, that was Jingerra that talked about the mimetic mechanism. Many people are, many churches are coming up now. Which other churches are coming up? So this one just organized this program. That was in March this year. So we also try to focus on them. That's another church again. So Helio's program is kind of inspiring more churches. So we shine the light on what they're doing. Yeah. We also try to challenge the misconceptions about science. Yeah. In Africa, when you talk about science, they say science is western. Yeah. And you are, when you ask for maybe proof, you say, oh, you are thinking like a white man. As if he's only a white man or white man. I think, you know, Africans don't think. So we try to tell them that science is science. It's not western or eastern or western, northern or southern, you know, science is science. In the media, yeah, a couple of years ago, the police arrested a goat in Nigeria. They arrested a goat and they brought the media people. What happened? Oh, some people, some vigilante group were pursuing some thieves and they told to a goat. Yeah. Yes. And they brought that. So that is it. Because some people would say, oh, they call it benign superstition or whatever. I'm still trying to find out which one is benign. You hang it up there. Before you know it, somebody would do something absorbed. It was a shame. That's the details. Next. Now, in our justice system, in Nigeria, which kind of accusation is illegal? Yeah, but because of the fact that these judges are enchanted, they are wish-crap believers. They will misinterpret the law. Instead of trying the accuser, the accuser is tried and jailed. And this happened last year. And it got to a point. They said that the victim, in quote, the person who planned to be wished should lie on the floor on the court and that the people who wished her should cross over to return the spirit. Yeah, spirit. In the law court. Yeah. So we tried to shine the light on that. Yeah. We also have this problem. Yes. People claim that genitals have disappeared. Yes. And it's a huge problem. It's a huge problem. And if people are accused, they could be killed. The person will be mocked. So it's not just in Nigeria. It's also in Ghana. We also have that situation. It spreads. Now, this is the case of a woman in Lagos. She got some terrible beating because she was alleged to have maybe stolen somebody's or whatever. Good. So what we also do is to draw attention to the plight of victims in Nigeria like children, innocent children who are accused of wish-crap. So we draw attention to the applied, the abused, the suffering, the torture they go through. And in Bukina Faso, are displaced, condemned to which, called witch camps. They call them Manjus Dam. That is soul-eaters. So if somebody, if a child dies in a family, they see the woman as eating the soul. And that's it. That's enough to drive the woman away. Also, we have problems with handbags. Yes. In September last year, a woman was murdered. She was kidnapped from her home, taken to a bush, and the murdered her and removed the hunch. Yes. And those are targeted because they believe that their body contains some magical substance which can make people rich and fortunate. Next one. We also rescued and rehabilitated victims. This is the case of Esther. Esther was driven out and she was in the market and we came to the community and found out that a man has kidnapped Esther. Around eight years, this man is 40, having sex with a girl around eight years and all that. So we went to the man's house and rescued Esther. So that's one of the things we do. That's Esther on her way home. Esther is currently in a private shelter, managed by some organizations in the state where she's being taken care of. We also, in Malawi, over 50 women were injured when I visited Malawi two, three years ago. And I told them, look, we have to strike. Why? In Malawi, wish that accusation is illegal and these people misinterpreted the law. So the law is on our side. So I told the local skeptics we have to strike. So we logged this campaign and within one year, almost all the women except three are now in jail. There's only three that are still in jail. We are still trying to get them out. So these are local activists with some of the women when they were released from jail in Malawi. Thanks to the efforts of local skeptics, activists and groups. This is a problem in Malawi. This is a problem. That is magic plane. That is what they call magic plane in Malawi. So for those of you who want to go to Malawi, you have an alternative to fly this plane to Malawi. So there's a strong belief in magic plane and those women are believed to have taken children and this magic plane to Zimbabwe and South Africa for initiation. And I told them this is rubbish. This is a toy. This is something for children. You know, for entertainment. It's not something to be taken seriously but in Malawi is another thing. It can send some people to jail based on some people's confession. Yeah. So this is the case of a woman, hunchback woman who was murdered. What we are doing right now is to see what we can do to provide assistance to the family and use that platform to shine a light on the fact that you cannot make money using human body parts. Nigerians don't know that. They believe strongly you can make money using human body parts. Now, these are three kids she left behind. So we are trying to see what we can do. At least give them primary education or secondary education. So that's a little we can do. But friends, this is not enough. We don't even have the resources to keep supporting, to keep rehabilitating victims. So we do a lot of public enlightenment because we know that if the superstition goes away, then I think we have less problem in terms of rehabilitating and supporting victims. That's the weird door. The house back on the left. Woman, so we visited her. Sorry, we visited her. Now, in Nigeria, there's what they call killer numbers. Yes. At a particular time, they will tell you there's a killer number. So if somebody calls you with that phone, if you pick it, you die. Yes. So that costs a lot of problems. So the telephone companies, they had to issue statements and get the people to understand that there is no killer numbers. In Nigeria, they believe in killer numbers. So if you... And the killer numbers came only when mobile phone came. They were not there before then. And you ask yourself, how? And you died those numbers, nobody picks them. So there's a believing killer number. Yes, the anti-vacination campaign. Some Muslims came and just... I don't know how they got information and said, oh, the vaccination was a campaign to make Muslims infected, to populate them around the world. So boycotted the vaccination program and we had more of the disease again and all that. So it took some time, some intensive public alignment to get them back. But I'm not sure that many people are back. There are still people that are still staying away from the campaign. Yes, HIV, prayer, pure claims. Many prophets, TB Joshua, Chris Oyakilome, there are so many Nigerians, in fact one of them is said to have predicted the death of the president of Malawi. So they try to tell you, oh, you cannot... They can give you some holy water or whatever and if you take it, you are cured. So some people will leave their antiretroviral drugs and all that. So many people are dying because they are following the instructions of pastors. Yes, that is it. So in the media also, we get this kind of unbalanced reporting. You know, when it says somebody resurrected and all that. So they will not bring critical balance to the news and reporting. So I think that's it for now. Thank you. So Ron, what are you guys doing over in Australia? Before I start, I just want to say that being active in a constitutional democracy like Australia presents really very few risks. And speaking after Leo, there is a little bit of a problem because our problems really pale into insignificance compared to the problems that he faces. And as you'll probably hear later, he and other skeptics in Africa do so at great personal risk, which we don't really take. So, you know, our achievements, I'm proud of our achievements and it's probably important to also point out that these are not my personal achievements, these are the achievements of the organization. But we do so within the comfort of a Western-style constitutional democracy and that's obviously very important. So I think probably the most important thing that we've achieved over the past few years is the progress in our fight against the anti-vaccination lobby. There have been very prominent in Australia, in particular regions where the population tends to be more new-agey. They've taken a strong foothold and vaccination rates have dropped quite significantly and there have been deaths. There is a whooping-off epidemic for the past three years now in Australia and there have been several deaths of babies who are either unvaccinated, while they were all unvaccinated, some of them were unvaccinated because they were too young to be vaccinated and some of them were not vaccinated because their parents chose the ill-advised choice of not vaccinating their children. There's several things that have happened with the fight against the anti-vaccination lobby and the main one is that they've been discredited in the press. Two or three years ago, Meryl Dory, who's the head of the organization actively named Australian Vaccination Network, she constantly claims that it's a pro-choice organization, a tactic that's shared by anti-vaccination organizations the world over. She would be called in to talk about matters of vaccination against experts, against medical experts who know what vaccinations actually do and how they work and what the risks are because they are risks, of course. But she would be called in. Journalists would use her services to say that the anti-vaccination, the five vaccinations, that no longer happens by and large. The way the AVN, and Meryl Dory in particular, described in the press now, is either just the anti-vaccination lobby, AVN, or the rabid anti-vaccination lobby, AVN, and obviously that's a major achievement because it means that they're not taken seriously and of course there will still be people who will listen to their advice, their population, young parents who don't have an opinion yet looking for information are no longer exposed to the AVN to the same degree that there were previously as a credible organization that provides credible information. In general, we have, I think, over the past few years, have increased our media presence quite significantly. In line with the rest of the world, skepticism has shifted in Australia. It's no longer so much about ghosts and ghouls and paranormal and a lot more about things like quacks and alternatives to medicine. I don't like to call it alternative medicine. So we are called upon to comment on these issues, but of course there's also, from time to time, there was a couple of years ago there was an Australian nun was declared as a saint by the Vatican. We gave lots of interviews about that, but we focused on the miracle side of it, which is of course what interests us and the decisions of the Vatican about whether somebody is a saint are a lot less interesting to the skeptical audience. We also participate in regulatory and legal issues. So we help in advisory groups with regards to things to do with regulating alternative medicine. We are meeting with ministers and with parliamentary secretaries, and we talk to the organizations that regulate medicine. And we also probably to a certain extent for effect, but there's an important point behind it. We also participate in regulatory affairs with regards to mainstream pharmaceuticals. So they don't like us too much either because we do make sure that they, where they're called to account when they do things like the company that manufactures and distributes Neurofen in Australia made claims that were completely unsubstantiated or could not be substantiated in their ads, and we participate in trying to call them to account. Problem is that the regulatory system in Australia is very weak and they weren't even fined unfortunately, but hopefully in the future they will be fined. They said that the Neurofen goes straight to the target of the pain. It's basically goes straight to your shoulder if your shoulder hurts. Yes. We assist other skeptics. The main story that I could tell, I won't tell it now because actually I'm giving a paper presentation on Sunday about this story. A doctor by the name of Ken Harvey who is a serial complainant about all of these things that I've mentioned before, and he was sued for defamation and we've provided a lot of assistance to him. And last but probably not least is the $100,000 challenge, similar to the million dollar challenge that the James Roundy Educational Foundation won. We have a challenge and it attracts all kinds of very interesting claims. The one that we constantly see is from diviners. They never go away. They're always very mild-mannered, polite folk who will be very puzzled when they don't succeed and then find an excuse as to why they didn't succeed. But that's something that happens from time to time. By the way, they're helped by the fact that if you dig for something like two or three meters anywhere in Australia that's not a mountain, you will find water. So one of the things we always ask them is find us a place where there's no water and no, no, we know how to find water. So these are some of our achievements of the past few years. So Aron, in Australia you have had a lot of success through the legislature, the passing laws against people who are using false advertising to sell pseudo-scientific remedies and things like that. Leo, I wonder in Nigeria, for example, what do you think is the one issue that is the most likely to be solved through the legal system? Or is that not how these problems can be solved in a country like Nigeria? Well, like I noted during my presentation, we can actually address the problem of witchcraft accusation legally. For instance, in Nigeria, witchcraft accusation is illegal. Yeah, Beth is illegal on the papers or on the statute there. Beth is legal in the minds of the people. So that's it. We have that contrast between what is written in the books and what people have in their minds. Yeah, so that was why we succeeded in Malawi because we were able to use what is enshrined in the criminal code to address the problem. So I think we can succeed. We can make progress in addressing the problem of witchcraft accusation legally. There's something I would like to add about that. In Australia, obviously the courts operate differently and probably less susceptible to be accountable to public opinion, I suppose. And not only that, prosecuting them would cost a lot more than $30,000, which means that nobody's ever been prosecuted under the laws that do allow the regulatory organizations to not just request but actually demand withdrawal of claims. So people who self-identify as skeptics, people like us who are here at TAM, are a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the population. I would think that to be successful in any campaign, whether it's a campaign against anti-vaxxers or a campaign against witch burning, you have to appeal to people who don't necessarily identify as skeptics. You have to appeal to their human nature, their empathy for others, things like that. So how do you think that people in, as let's say in the United States, can affect the people who live in these countries where these horrible things are happening? What can we do to help out in any African country or what can an American do to help out in Australia? There are lots we can do from here. First of all, we can highlight or post information about these problems on our website or blogs. We can also do reports on these problems on our newsletters and get people informed because they send information, information is power, knowledge is power. We can also petition governments because for instance, the United States has an aid program, the college you said, I don't know, but they have these aid programs. They give money to some countries in Ghana and Malawi for aids and all that for development projects. So for me it's outrageous that America will be giving development aid to a country like Malawi where over 50 women were in jail. What kind of assistance is that? And America will be giving money to Ghana to support democracy and human rights when in the north thousands of women are in witch camps or to Burkina Faso. So it is important for us from here to draw the attention of the government to the fact that they should tie in assistance or development or programs to address these problems into their development programs. I think that in this day and age with the way the internet is, definitely in Australia politicians pay attention to what's happening on the internet. I think it almost doesn't matter whether you are an Australian citizen or not. You can assist in local causes in Australia or anywhere else by rallying behind causes. So if something comes up on some blog or on Facebook, then putting in your comments, signing online petitions, these are things that can really help make a difference. If the politicians see that there's a lot of activity behind a specific cause, they will pay more attention. It's also important to contact local activists with important information because we don't work in a vacuum. The kind of problems that we encounter are not different to the problems encountered in other places. There's a good chance that whatever it is that we are working on at a certain point in time has been already either solved or worked on by somebody else somewhere else and giving us some information about the kind of things that have been done in the past and have been successful in the past somewhere else can be extremely useful. There's also active participation. I'd like to tell a story related to Leo. And that is Leo, a couple of years ago now that you were arrested on very serious charges. It was a while ago. It was something like almost two years ago now. Leo was arrested on very serious false charges, I should point out. And the sceptical movement got behind him very, very strongly everywhere in the world and within hours of him being arrested there were people making phone calls to the local police, to local politicians trying to get him released. I personally spent, due to time differences, it was 4 a.m. by the time I managed to speak to the Australian ambassador in Lagos and got the Australians involved I had to lie in the process. I said that Leo actually works for Australian skeptics because he's been writing for our magazine for a very long time. But the point was that they actually acted. They did call the local politicians, they called local police and I don't know that it helped. I don't know that that's why it eventually got released. But I'm fairly sure that it at least had the potential to help. I'm fairly sure that when the local police chief gets calls from the UK, from the US, from Australia, from other countries it does put pressure on them. First of all, our main concern was that Leo would be harmed during interrogation. If you were just arrested, that's bad enough but if you were actually tortured, we didn't know what was going to happen. So putting that kind of pressure actually was significant help. And there's also some more mundane stuff like collaborating on specific activities a few months ago. I think actually coming up to a year as well we had one of the challenges to our $100,000 challenge. His claim was that he could send messages to another person who happens to live in New York. And we recruited New York skeptics to help us with testing that challenge. By the way, what happened was that it looks like not only the claims were imaginary, the other person may have been imaginary because she never showed up. So there were two New Yorkers standing out in the cold in a street corner waiting for an imaginary person. So that never went anywhere but there was a collaboration over an extended period of time in designing that test and making it happen. So we can make waves outside of our little in-group but because we are part of an in-group there's this problem that I think all skeptics have where whenever we talk to a believer we're seen as an outsider. In Africa you talked about how it's seen as western thought or white man thinking to be pro-science. In Australia, in the United States, in Great Britain when we have this anti-vaccination problem if you point somebody to say, you know, the Australian skeptics website if there's an article about how vaccines are safe if you point someone who is a true believer that vaccines are not safe to that website they're going to see the word skeptic and just dismiss everything because we're part of this group of people and that's what we do. It's our hobby. We get together and wear badges. Let's say some. So how do you get beyond this perception that we are outsiders not to be trusted? Well, I think we face more challenges particularly in Africa because people view skeptics as an effusion with suspicion. For instance, we appeared before a commission of inquiry on the problem of wishcraft accusation and I was to testify so Helen Upabio sent four lawyers to cross-examine me and they spent much of the time telling the members of the commission, Leo is an atheist. He has an atheist agenda. He wants to make Nigerian children an atheist. He wants to turn them to... That is it. So it's also a problem. Because when you are challenging beliefs, paranormal beliefs, superstition they think that you have an agenda to make people atheist and what is wrong with that? We're born atheists after all. But like I used to tell people actually I don't have an agenda. When I said don't touch your children in the name of wishcraft, I mean is that an agenda? So we have that problem. So what I do is this. Well I don't talk about atheism. I don't even talk about God. I use this, I use the photos. I use the harm, I use the dangers we run. I use the problems we have as society, the problems that are causing. As society I said, look at this problem. Like now a woman, the woman who was the hunchback woman I must tell you I'm sure she was a Christian or a believer. But we have to go and assist people. Whether they are skeptics or not whether they are part of our movement or not. So we go all out to assist people just because we care. I think we care. We care not just when these beliefs are promoted within us but also out there in the world. I mean I try to tell people that I probably want to call it skepticism for humanity. For everybody. I try to go about my work by emphasizing on human benefit and by not saying is this child an atheist child or skeptical child or whatever. Is that a child? Yes. Being tortured in the name of superstition? Yes. Then I move in. So I think with that people are finding out that maybe some of these notions that maybe we are there or we are trying to send people to hell and all that that is actually not the real issue. So that is it. I make humanity the emphasis when it comes to my skeptical activism. For me it's obviously again the situation is much simpler. The census results in Australia were published a few days ago and the 25% declared no religion the church attendance is at something like 7%. So religion is not an issue at all in Australia. By the way there were 2,500 Scientologists and 75,000 Jedi Knights. So religion is not an issue and religion is I do think that it's a particular problem because it's not ingrained just in personal beliefs it's society supports it and it makes it more difficult to reach when you seem to be working in this religion. But generally I prefer not to target the true believers. I think true believers are beyond our help. What we have to make sure is that we reach those who are still looking out for information and make sure that the true believers don't get there first. So try to minimize the effect of those the organizations that try to promote will and simply provide information, correct information and point out the logical fallacies when there are such and obviously usually there are provide correct information point to correct sources so we try not to for example give medical information but we point out to people where to get correct information and just we basically try to almost ignore in terms of our own activity ignore the true believers. One of the issues that we've had our eye on at yeah. Sure. Can you talk about the the path that's coming in I think the way you say that the response by churches where are those churches located where are they based? So I repeat the question he's asking where the churches that are sponsoring these witch hunts are based? Yeah, the base in Nigeria, the base in the southern part particularly, southern Nigeria. No, what happens there is that there is there's a trend we call it Pentecostal, the evangelical trend they're not the orthodox and this trend is such that you can convert giving a toilet to a church yes you can start the church anywhere in the garage, in the garden anyway so you don't need to register you don't need to go for any special training you just need to see the community and come out and tell people I've seen the vision and you go and start preaching anything in your head, good, bad, ugly so it's some kind of a decentralized kind of thing so that is it and it's everywhere One more question, I'm sorry The second question was about Meryl Dory she started a new group in Australia called the Real Skeptics Skeptics with a C on K What are you guys doing about her? Meryl Dory has started her own skeptics group with a C first of all, let's get this out of the way here, what's the proper way to spell skeptic we spell it with a K when we talk about the skeptical movement, we spell it with a K I think part of it is because we want to be part of the global skeptical movement which is generally spelled with a K we need to talk about the movement I don't know, I've seen some arguments about that You have arguments in Australia as well Australia's generally spell the word skeptic with a C but for the purpose of our discussion it's with a K Meryl has opened we knew about this a long time ago she registered domain names Australian Skeptics AustralianSkeptics.com AustralianSkeptics.org RealAustralianSkeptics.com stuff like that our website is skeptics.com.au so we're taking steps to remove it you look at the site and it's very plainly not part of the skeptical movement it's not like you could go in there and mistake it for something that belongs to the skeptical movement but as is usual in her case she uses misleading tactics she doesn't care about what's true or not true and I think the byline for the real AustralianSkeptics website is doubt everything believe no one or something like that I think that's the ex bias she may be taking it from there and obviously she believes anything that people like Andrew Wakefield says so it's very selective in her case and I believe these websites will eventually be taken down but it's taking time we're not particularly worried about it we know roughly how much traffic they attract it's not huge but we are concerned about the fact that it comes up in searches mostly because people respond actually if people didn't respond good skeptics didn't respond on those websites they probably wouldn't feature as high but at the moment it is creeping up in the search results and that is something that is concerning us it was very interesting listening to you talk about and I guess like most people here I have never heard these things and never seen such terrible pictures but you mentioned that that accusation of being a witch is a crime is that civil criminal it's on the books you say and why don't it's on the books then why is it not prosecuted like a crime what's happening there I'm going to give you an example I attended a workshop for judges in the particular state where we had this problem and during the workshop one of them said I don't believe in child witchcraft but I know there are witches and wizards that's a kind of that's a justice well-paid trained and educated he believed that a witch is a wizard but just because of the pressure he didn't believe in child witchcraft and another example I have so many examples people in positions to implement these laws yes these laws they have to be interpreted now the people interpreting the laws are believers so what they do is to misinterpret the law and you know when you have a ruling and somebody appeals then but you know the whole thing has to be re-examined but this is a situation where nobody appeals because apparently the ruling is lying to the populace changing the laws in Nigeria how do you about it well just in the morning it's through the parliament that's how they do it and maybe through if there's a major ruling a kind of precedent I'm not a lawyer so I know that's exactly how it could be done would that be a better route to make a criminal offense to accuse someone of being a witch no no it is an offense already what we need to do is to educate the judges the judges are superstitious yes what they will see the crime but they will interpret their belief that's a problem so what they need is education they need some critical thinking they need to come to term and listen to presentations here so that's what they need and the laws are there but the most said is that in Cameroon Central Africa and a few other countries witchcraft accusation is not a crime witchcraft is recognized by law so when somebody is accused they will bring in a witch doctor to come and help the judge to identify and convince somebody so countries like Cameroon are in deep shape in this case and we still don't know how to help them what proportion of the population of these countries would you say are witchcraft believers or practitioners or subscribers of this mode of thought over 90 90 percent witchcraft believers is that primarily does that come from organized religion or does that come from just folklore and ingrained superstition yeah that's how we're brought up yes because it starts from the family first of all the family the school the churches and all that now churches, mosques, they share the beliefs of parents so when parents give back to children they teach them when we are young they make us understand that people who come to insects and come and suck blood in the night and when there are accidents on the road they say that these are blood sucking demons blood sucking witches they are at work so many of us grow up confused yeah for me it was a mental struggle trying to find out when accidents actually happens and when witches are involved and this is a mental struggle many people don't go through in Africa because they just cannot afford to doubt what their parents have told them and what they are taught in schools and what they are told in churches and mosques so the churches and mosques they come later to reinforce what we receive traditional training or information or upbringing we've received and there is no space for skepticism no space for skeptical rationality even in the schools so that is it but sure yeah this guy is the fact that what the alarming part of this is seem to be that witch hunting movement has become increasingly international but you are seeing cases of witch-chilling happening in London and other European cities as people from these Africa bring their culture to believe with them so yeah witch burning, witch hunting is do you think it's growing? it's not just a problem in Africa but do you think it's spreading? yeah I think so and that is why we have to be concerned and that is why it might not be the best to think that oh yeah this is African problem it's African problem, let's think that we are a problem no Africans are here too Africans are living in the United States and I want to tell you that my sister lives here yeah and all of my brother lives here yeah and my sister believes in witchcraft yes I must tell you now let me tell you this she came back some years ago and told us that our family was under a curse yeah she came back from the United States to Africa to tell us that our family was under a curse but because my family has some kind of skeptical orientation we ignore her completely so because they wanted us to have a family prayer and invite a pastor who will come and break the curse you may not understand that's what is common in my own part of the world breaking the curse they have to do some prayer and chanting and see if I don't know how how the prayer turned to a knife and they will now have something to hit the curse and the curse shutters and all that so but there is that funny belly because and she's been living here so she has to have believed there so what I'm saying there is that we should not see this just as African thing and the case of that's Christi Bamu in the UK Christi Bamu was tortured killed in the UK by African family members and I want to tell you do not be surprised that such things will be taking place here because the people that invited Henry Nupapio are wishful of believers yes and that they in one form or another are also manifesting their beliefs and that is why we have to be concerned so it's not just an African thing I think it's an international problem and it needs an international response is it worth the wages that wouldn't be released does that tie into anything that you see in other words do you see anything coming out of or any combination with this believers movement are they completely separate is there overlap or are they just leveraging perhaps leveraging the beliefs exactly how much of the prosecutions for these types of things that African have to do with the corruption of the legal system payouts like that police officers are Nigerians or Africans and they are among the over 90% are wishcraft believers yes and I must tell you that one of the Trump's of charges brought against me was that I used juju I went to somebody's house and spent juju there now the people that wrote the the accusation were police officers if you move into a police station in Nigeria and you give some money to a police officer they would write something that that is I don't know how to say it something that you can use to go and arrest somebody they would tell you how to coin it so that you can use it to arrest somebody and one of them was that juju that I went to I broke into the person's house and scattered juju on the floor so what I'm saying there is this the whole place even the legal system is there so corruption yes, pricing in the sense that you move in there you give them money they cook up something for you yeah and they would use it to to arrest and somebody's arrested for wishcraft it's a way to make money for police officers let me just tell you this I was arrested I was being detained so I was waiting for them to really decide my fate so one police officer said I have not made any money today I said you make money individually here that is it so that is the legal system we have it's a terrible one and everything ties into it it ties into it superstitious corruption and all that I was just wondering if the panel would comment on the role of the different kinds of media in trying to get the skeptical word out in other words contrast say TV with the internet what do you see going forward what are the most effective forms of media in Australia the most effective is definitely television so if you manage to get to television that is significant we have one of the things that have happened over the past few years is that we have been able to get in touch with some prominent media personalities and we regularly feature on radio and television much more so than in the past in the past again we've always had a media profile but it was always related to issues like ghost so it was always curiosity the colour stories that you have at the end of the years rather than things that are not important but I think the part of an important part of that effect has been the use of the internet and I would say Facebook and Twitter in particular Twitter I don't like Twitter because anybody who knows me knows that 140 characters are not enough for me are days often not enough for me but I think it's been a fantastic means of spreading information that we want spread and we have Rachel Dunlop I don't think she's here find Dr. Regi, Rachel Dunlop she's around at this conference she's won the Shorty Award from Twitter for I think it was for the medical area for spreading information about the medical field and the way she's a trendsetter on Twitter there's some amazing stuff in terms of getting the word out there and journalists pay attention everybody knows how it works now where journalists really look for information to be able to quickly come out with something because the news cycle is so short and they do pay attention so if things trend on Twitter or appear regularly on Facebook that makes a huge impact for us let's say in Nigeria and I can say in many parts of Africa the media space is for sale so it's for is it the highest bidder or something yes so if you can pay for it fine you have it and the money is not in the hands of skeptics as you know the money is in the hands of churches and the religious groups like in Nigeria you don't dare turn on your television on Sunday because it's one church after another one church after another and all that so we are having a hard time competing with these people because they have a lot of money to buy up the media spaces and tell us all sorts of rubbish but occasionally we try to have some debates maybe once we hear something like that radio television the same thing again we have government radios and television the members of these churches are the directors they say maybe government radios and televisions they are the directors there so that when you get there I was to appear I was to appear on a television show and before we started they told us look don't criticize any religion I mean it was like go back yes because we were discussing issues on witchcraft ritual killing how one could say something like that without saying something critical of religion so before you move in there the directors will tell you don't criticize, don't attack any religion and if you do it they put you off the air you just go off so that is it and all that but internet is slowly coming in and it's helping people are meeting on facebook and we are not having blogs we are having websites and things like that but it's slowly coming but when it comes to others they have gone to satellite for some of Nigerian televangelists they have satellite televisions like TB Joshua and all that and you watch it it's just the same thing you do those drama they just put it up there for the world to watch and all that so that is it it's challenging but I think that there's some hope that we can with time we can utilize the media space speaking of money there's an issue that the JRAF has had its eye on for a little while now it's something that I think the mercy side skeptics in the UK have been dealing with everybody knows about shark finning sharks are caught their fins are cut off they used to be primarily made into soups and then they were sold in certain Asian countries and all over the world really but it's primarily focused in Asia it would be sold as sort of like a status symbol like you were a rich important person if you can afford shark fin soup but now they've done so much shark fishing prices gone down on shark fin soup it's no longer a status symbol and what they're doing now to make money off of shark fins drying them out chopping them up and turning them into cancer cure medicines there's a myth that sharks can't get cancer and so if you eat their fins then you won't get cancer either but even if they couldn't get cancer I don't think that's how that would work so how much of this sort of thing and this is something that's a big problem in China and Southeast Asia because this is not a religious issue this seems to be entirely motivated by commerce these are people peddling nonsense to make a profit so all over the world how much harm do you think is being caused by profiteers and how much harm do you think is being caused by true believers I can't say that it's not something that I can really say affects Australia beyond this very strong link that Australia has with Asia of course Asia is our background is our playing field so obviously we're affected there's a large Asian population in Australia and there's issues around that but there is nothing that I can say that's specific to Australia in that respect I'm asking if you think that there's more harm being caused by people that are cynically selling things to people that are selling products that don't work or if they're coming from a religious motivation or some sort of other true believer motivation and they really do think that they're doing good by burning witches or doing good by prosecuting people for doing magic spells, things like that I mean how much do you think is genuine how much do you think is profit motivated to draw our attention to something the so called alternative medicine or you call it alternative to medicine many people are coming from China with what they call Chinese medicine and they are setting up clinics and you know they say they are treating Africans and they collect money from them and that has not made any difference in our healthcare system and there are so many people who are either marketing I call it vegetable they give people vegetable they say it's alternative medicine or they give them fruits or they give them just liquid just something, just take something to drink and after that you go home and they collect money from them so I think that there are so many people profiting from maybe marketing either something that is useless or giving people vitamins I think they call them supplementary medicine they call them so many things and sometimes you ask yourself is that fruits or food are not medicine so there are so many people there we still have more fundamental problems and we still have very few hands to enlighten the population when it comes to these issues so otherwise there are so many people profiting as a result of the fact that many Africans do not even understand or draw distinctions between maybe what is medicine or medical or helpful and what is not the background how did you come out of it how did you become skeptical how did Leo become skeptical well like I told them I told them this in the San Luis Obispo I just came in from there I told them lately I have come to understand I am not a normal human being yes I think when I start with that you can now understand me let me not just be describing in so many ways let me run it in one line I am abnormal where people see normal I see something different like now I was born in a superstitious rural community I was not born in a hospital after the civil war there were no hospitals all the hospitals had been bombed and shelled in the home of a midwife and all that and post war life was filled with a lot persecution, fear, anxiety desperation and all that and as I was growing up what happened is as I was growing up I had this questioning mind yes people have all this believing superstition and magic they are still very poor my village was poor it's still very poor nothing has changed so the witchcraft believe or whatever they believe cannot change their lives and they would tell us oh this man is a witch doctor and all that let me give you an example I came back home I told my father I said look these guys witch doctors are fraudsters he said look my son no no no no there is one man he is very powerful I said can we go? he said we should go we went there we went to the man's house no one behold he had a partial stroke a powerful witch doctor had a partial stroke where all the magical powers where were they? all the occult powers where were they? and if you see how he struggled to stand up I told my father I said are you telling me this man is powerful? he is dying and of course he is dead now so I grew up with all these contradictions I said no there is something fishy in here they don't want to tell us and I need to find out what that thing is now from that community where were those contradictions and I went to the seminary I did most of my education in the Catholic seminaries 4 and they told us that the priests we are representing God they are alter they are telling us what God said come on when the priest gets angry his sermon will be to reflect in his sermon another and you see us having maybe some quarrel, politics going on another so when I was there I couldn't see God I went to the seminary I saw human beings I didn't see God so the thing is just not there yes I need to hold on to and the best thing is for me to tell people there is nothing there please if you go to a church the church is empty God is not there if God is there he should come out if he can't come out that means he is not there if you go to a house and say honor of this house come out and nobody comes out definitely nobody is there or the best thing is there is dead you get it that was the the environment I grew up and when I went to the seminary I found out that Christianity just changed the code of traditional superstition and not the character Jesus died on the cross and what about it and he saved us how? he didn't save Africa of course we are still suffering the way we will be suffering over the years it doesn't make any difference and if it doesn't make any difference and people keep talking about it you have to make people to understand that this thing is important it's useless it's harmful can we get it out of the way so that we have a clear view of our problems that's it that's the environment I grew up asking questions challenging claims and I must tell you I find that more exciting I am happier doing that I just want to comment that I find your story a little bit depressing because basically what you are saying is the answer is be born that way but I don't think it's necessarily true I think the we have to remember that Europe was like this a few hundred years ago this is not something that is there's nothing different about Africa the one thing that is different about Africa is that it is economically undeveloped and education is poor to a large extent and I think the answer is economic development and education you don't need to worry about the skepticism part the less religion and more skepticism and critical thinking will come out of that and of course look we know that it doesn't solve all the problems we see this in other places like the US and Australia but by and large I believe that these are the two things that we need to worry about and of course we have to also make our governments who support African countries with aid just like Leah said earlier there are strings attached and there are the correct strings we demand the conditions are the correct conditions for the aid that's supplied to these countries I guess in Australia what are the conditions of the vital laws there as you're going about your work and I guess more Nigeria there are blasphemy laws that you're concerned about so what are the laws affecting free speech in your countries well, first of all the constitution does not have a free speech clause so there is no free speech in the way that it is in America so we do have to we are in a more restrictive situation it's not terrible but there are restrictions that don't exist here in terms of your ability to say things I think by and large first of all defense and public interest are a defense so we just make sure that we comment on things that are in the public interest and we make sure that we tell the truth and that usually isn't the problem we have never been sued as an organization but again the story of Ken Harvey which I will tell in more detail on Sunday is that he was sued for talking about one of his complaints against a company that was selling a weight loss remedy remedy scare quotes, very important so there's things you can do about those to make sure that it doesn't affect your activities we made sure that he wasn't affected and sent a very important message to the community out there that skeptics can't be threatened by libel suits because we will not budge but by and large you just stick to the truth and make sure that things are in the public interest and that's a solution in our situation well for us like I said we have the letter of the law and we also have the people interpreting the law so I've been sued yes Helen Opamio sued me and I think he asked for three billion dollars I don't know how many billions and I must tell you it was my first time of seeing such a amount tied against my name she told the court that my activities were depriving of her rights to believe in witchcraft to believe in God and go about her church activities and all that well she lost and it was a good development for us for the humanist movement and for the skeptic movement but you see in Nigeria we have the northern part has this so here the blasphemy law is very strong but the fanatics will not allow the courts to implement or to enforce the blasphemy laws what do I mean by that if you commit blasphemy before it gets to the court you are killed yes and nothing happens nothing happens when I say you commit blasphemy nobody actually commits that even if you commit it doesn't mean anything so what happened is that particularly there was a case of a woman in 2008 they were conducting an exam and Islamic studies exam and one of the pupils came in with a copy of the Quran and she was angry she took the Quran and just kept it by the side maybe dropped it on the floor they said it was blasphemy and it didn't get to the court so they went and mobilized and the pupils lynched their teacher yes so that's the kind of situation where we stay so it doesn't even get to the court it doesn't get to the court in 1996 the police exam was beheaded by fanatics because they detained him at a police station but they broke into the police station took him out there and beheaded him and put his head on a spike and paraded it on the streets that is Nigeria and that's a blasphemy law and all that so that's the kind of situation where we find ourselves there believers is that there is that the skeptics are referring to their financial widely heard so that can be separate from your belief system have any of you encountered that as a reasonable actor I would say have you ever encountered people who claim that you're affecting their financial livelihood with your skepticism friends is all about money yes I want to tell you it's not all about which is always and whether they live or not money yes I'm going to show some posters after and I will show you the advertisement Helen O'Pamio Hardt prayer books against witchcraft if you have some prayers against witchcraft she has books and she will tell you to subscribe she has films you are possessed by witchcraft by demons and I have the power to deliver you come to my church it's all about money she's angry with me because she knows that immediately people stop believing in witchcraft her church will be empty and there will be no money in her pocket that is it that's the simple answer we have to that we don't have that problem at all because I think the part of the Australian culture is that if somebody made that claim it would be a very bad step for anyone to say by asking for evidence you are ruining my livelihood that would be a very bad move on the end there it seems like part of the instrument not necessarily among the big people promoting this stuff but among the general population is what you said at the beginning well science is a white thing and so it's bad and I realize that the way that that is mostly through just education but is there anything specifically that you can do with that are there any specific methods that you are trying to use to combat that there is no such thing as white science and black science and anything between there is just science have you come back to the white question I challenge it I don't think that there is any other thing we can do but just go out and challenge it when I was doing a masters program I was taking this course on philosophy of science and my lecturer a doctor in philosophy was telling us about the African scientific way of curing bone problems do you know the way he said that the way is that if you have a bone problem you have a fracture something you now get a chicken you break the leg of the chicken and keep the chicken softened by the side and when that of the chicken feels you are on with him what's the connection what's the connection number one we don't have the same constituent my bone is bigger than that of the chicken I don't know how many times is it and someone will tell you that that is African science rubbish I stood up and challenged him I told him this is nonsense you get and when you say it they will tell you you are not proud of identity or I am not proud of African nonsense I am not proud of African superstitions tell me something better so that is it I don't think there is any way because the so called scholars and intellectuals they are the one promoting it you know when you say oh western technology they want to say also when you say oh western medicine they also want to say African medicine even though it's poison you get it it's acceptable or something that has no therapeutic value you see it so that is it I don't think there is a particular way to do it but that we have to keep challenging distance and we have to go to these schools have skeptic groups have students groups plan the seed of skepticism in our schools so that the whole thing will fade away that is just it I don't think there is any other way but we have to get right in there and tell them this is a problem I will get them to draw instances of that and keep engaging the situation maybe till it goes away it's also reporting out too that this isn't an idea that is limited to non-western countries in western countries westernized countries it's a problem with people motivated against real science, real medicine because it's western there is this kind of idea that if it's traditional if it's eastern it's been around longer it's better you're not feeding into the pharmaceutical companies how does that I'm sure that's a problem in Australia there's paranoia about pharmaceutical companies actually some of it is justified I would imagine well the pharmaceutical companies are companies trying to make a buck whatever they can to make a buck by the way part of the irony of the legal system it's the same in the US is that the directors are not judged on their ethical work they're judged on shareholder outcomes that's what they're judged by legally that's what they're supposed to do so obviously there's no ethical boundaries it's not something that's limited to quackery so there is that suspicion against a major pharmaceutical that comes out of that but I think it is we all like nature especially now that we all live in cities there's a lot of cement and bitumen around us we like nature and we like trees and all that and somehow it looks like something that is more natural and it's better we have a fallacy now named after that the natural fallacy I don't know that it's any worse in Australia but it's definitely not better we have those claims all the time I think the main one at the moment is I think most people in Australia will accept that homeopathy is gobbledygook and doesn't mean anything but everybody thinks a lot of people think that there is plenty of evidence for acupuncture people make that claim people who are on our side tend to come and say there is evidence for acupuncture being helpful and we know that's actually not true so yes there is definitely that problem and if anybody who's been outside yesterday knows that nature is trying to kill us so I wouldn't put much stock in nature so a couple questions weigh in the back it is so one sided that it seems this is something that's always coming up in the news it's something that controls women it controls those who are poor but how do you power act that does it use weight to the grand those weights can you counteract this this idea that if you don't believe in these things then you're going out there's no humans here there's no hell yes I know that people have to try to use that to maybe intimidate I don't know I don't know actually what they want to achieve but I laugh at it when people mention talk about her number one there's no hell so there's no agreement can you tell me something else if there's something else you have to tell me just tell me that I'm going to hell I don't think it's the time to just laugh if you tell me it's like that I just laugh that's the way I take it and it also means that do you think that that's that's one way to come combat these ideas is just to have more and more people laughing at it yes if you it all depends on the environment if you laugh in the midst of fanatics that might be the last laugh yeah because there are really really people who are who want to go to heaven you know yes people who want to go to heaven by kidding you and when they think that you're making fun of their belief they can really do something terrible so I try to monitor the environment before I laugh yeah and I must tell you that the best place I laugh is a place like this yes every other place I laugh with caution now let me give you this example when I was traveling to Australia we were we were about I think we were around pet moving headed towards Sydney so I was tired so I came out to stretch my legs now at the back of the aircraft moving in this way I think I imagine at the back of the aircraft I just came in and I met somebody a Muslim here praying you know you know the way to pray he was praying so I paused I almost started laughing but I suppressed the laughter you know so I now laugh when I met skeptics in Australia I told them the story because I was asking myself come on this man how does he know that his face is in Mecca moving into Australia this way and somebody is at the back facing the river or something because I know the river is surrounded by the river you get it so but you don't tell him and you don't laugh at him yeah so that is it it's also important that you go to another environment and make people understand that sometimes or in most cases Muslims are facing the wrong way when they are praying and that Allah is not just hearing the prayer so you can see a lot of wasted prayers and wasted exercise you know they do every time so sometimes laughing at them is good but I laugh with caution I've never been threatened with violence but the worst I think that's happened is Merildore calling us brown shirts for not believing what she says but humor in general especially if you are in an interview situation television works really well in that respect is a little smirk just seeming to ridicule the idea you don't have to actually say anything just look like you are amused by the claims it has more effect than a thousand words it's much better than countering the claim just look amused by the claim I have to say that mentioning facing Mecca I don't know if anybody else has read Mary Roach's book Packing for Mars about the space program apparently this became an issue when people started going into space if you are a Muslim in space what do you do and you face it's that blue dot you face Earth and hope for the best there's actually there's also this I can't remember the name of it but if somebody can track it down there's this handbook this old Vatican handbook that covers every possible adverse circumstance for communion for every kind of ritual that a priest would face it's a handbook for a priest and so it talks about you're supposed to deliver the communion waiver with one particular arm what if you're a priest that doesn't have this particular arm what if someone takes communion and then immediately bombets it up what do you do it's just like this 800 page book about every possible situation I always like contingency plans logistics nerd before we run out of time I want to talk about the practicalities like brass tacks of what people can do to help out fellow skeptics in other countries is it a matter of of throwing money at the problem and if so who do you think people should give money to of spreading awareness somehow of adding your name to the global conversation in some way I just want to get both of your thoughts on that just practically speaking today when someone leaves this room what could they do to help out in Africa what could they do to help fellow skeptics in Australia okay now what one can do depends on what one is doing what one is good at or what one is in the position to do yes there are people that work for organizations there are people that work for universities, health agencies human rights groups now for those who work for human rights groups they should make this part of their agenda I think you would be doing a lot of good to my continent because they don't they try to avoid it they don't want to offend Africans please I don't like hearing that they will tell you yes this is African culture this is not our culture torturing children in the name of witchcraft is not our culture so if you are part of the organizations bring this make this part of your mission in Africa part of your program is in Africa you will be doing a lot of good to us so it must not be maybe channeling money or funds to us again we need training like I told you here now in Nigeria what the judges need is training and nothing more the laws are there they misinterpret them we need people to train them we also have activists on ground who are doing some work of course they need support you can also highlight what they are doing on your website and get the world to know because I think that many people around the world do not actually know what's going on they don't know the tragic nature of things there so help us inform them then if you can raise money good sometimes we use the money to support victims but we don't just support victims we use that as a platform to send a strong message this is nonsense it has to stop and again I must also say this I'm doing some research at a university in Germany and I'm looking for a scholarship and the university gave me one year scholarship and it's expiring in September and we are struggling now to get some funding maybe for six months or one year or three years as the case may be and one day my supervisor called me he said look here in Germany we have the Dutch funding agency for scholarship we have the card card leak funding agency he said if you have not outed yourself I would have advised you to apply to card so this will not happen and that's the same thing many people like now my father said I became a card leak because that was the only way to receive education you see people you know, professing religion as a result of some basic needs and all that so we also have to find a way to raise money and fund research programs in universities so that a skeptic does not become a believer because he needs money to fund a research program yes so if you have contacts who can help me for six months, one year I don't want to be a card leak please, because I want to fund my research I want to be free, I want to be free I want to remain a skeptic I want to question any ideas I don't want to go to church because I have card leak funding assistants and I know that I'm not just the only person in the shoes there's so many people out there you know, who face this dilemma so let us know and make it a priority and provide some funding programs for skeptics and free thinkers not just in Africa but also here in the United States give you money to lia Australian skeptics doing okay we can afford to be volunteers by and large there's also some funding available to us and we definitely don't need financial support though if somebody has a really large bequest or something we won't say no but really in terms of financial support I think the causes like skepticism and critical thinking in Africa that are probably more important support in that respect as I mentioned earlier I think rallying behind causes in other countries Australia in particular is always a good thing there's no distinction nowadays between support that comes from within Australia from elsewhere when it's online and actually one thing you can do is come to Australia and participate in our activities and our events we have a very large is that a good time to plug yes, okay, I'll plug we have a very large conference at the first two days of December in Victoria, Victorian skeptics are organizing it there's still tickets left James Randy will be there DJ Growthy will be there one Brian Thompson I don't know who that is Brian Thompson will be there oh that's me, yeah so Brian Thompson will be there they've got a really great program and Melbourne is a very nice place to visit as well so you can go to just look up Victorian skeptics and register for that conference and visit Australia at the same time Don Hyatt I think is here Don, can you stand up for a sec so Don is the convener look for that t-shirt it's a convention t-shirt okay, this is a kangaroo's skin hat look him up, don't worry the kangaroo had it coming yeah so find Don and register for the conference and I think, I'm not just saying I said it's a plug but it's not it's about participation, it's about creating those contacts, it's about being part of the movement seeing what people work like in other countries being a participant in the activities of people in other groups just like we come here there's usually a 30, 40 50 strong contingent from Australia at TAM we participate in conferences in other countries as well I think it's very important to have that global feel to come to other countries and see how they operate I think we have time for maybe a couple more questions you sir, near the back to jack it on your thoughts on mainstream media here in the US are we helping or hindering skepticism critical thinking helping or hindering hindering oh in the US how much US entertainment do you get exported to your various areas? lots we have a lot of American television program on Australian television but I think the shows that we get are not shows we get medium what are they called the ghost hunters so what was that? so we get that it's mostly on, most of the stuff is on cable so it's exposed to a very small minority of the population I don't think that in terms of skepticism we are affected so much so the media doesn't either help or hinder in that respect but the Australian media does have a detrimental effect we have the two main tabloid TV shows, the two shows competing for the 6 o'clock 6 to 7 p.m. slot on television one's called Today Tonight the other one's called The Current Affair and they sound like news shows nothing could be further from the truth they I can't remember exactly what Rachel once said you have bras you have to be at least once a month weight loss twice a month there's the recipe and they're commercial and they don't hesitate at all to promote quackery of various kinds in fact we land some successes actually through that because they were going to promote on the show called Today Tonight which is quite prominent they were trying to promote the power balance bracelet to ask whether we wanted to comment and Richard said I will, Richard Saunders, and he went there and actually debunked it on air and that was the start of the downfall of the power balance bracelets in Australia which I believe precipitated a global collapse which was obviously a good thing so we can actually use that the fact that the media is so interested in various forms of quackery to our advantage but most of the time we don't have the opportunity so by and large I would say the media hinders rather than helps for me I think televangelism that is what is really doing a lot of damage and I think that many of them are just imitations they get from here many of our many of our evangelists you know having this satellite televisions or satellite broadcasts of faith healing prayers you can now send your prayer request via websites or whatever and all that and many of them are really being assisted by their American counterparts so I think that's a much in terms of effect the American media is having when it comes to to suggestion paranormal beliefs out there in Africa one more question Tim someone wants to give money to your group how do they do that so give money to your groups that you support in Africa how can they find you okay how you can find me just put my name on the google okay great well it all depends you see like originally Africa is a continent so we have groups in Malawi we have in Uganda we have in Nigeria and all that we have for instance each group has different projects like the project to assist the victims of ritual killing witchcraft abuse and all that so most times we always want something meant for this project in this country and all that so that helps us so if you want to support what we are doing in Malawi we just link you up with our Malawi counterpart yes Uganda or Nigeria ritual killing in Nigeria we link you up to somebody and the person who they want to coordinate it so it all depends on what you want but if you you can contact me my email address is I have three email addresses and skeptic leo and skeptic leo is in my email address I want people to know is there when you are writing me you know whom you are writing and skeptic leo at yahoo.com that is my email address the other one is humanistleo at hotmail.com these are two email addresses I have with that you can contact me and just let me know specifically what you want the money where you want it channeled if you say oh use it for whatever you want then we might take a decision when I inform you this is where it is going and for this and for that and for that so that is that is the only thing I can say now I want to thank you both for being on this workshop Leo Igway what was your name Eran Egan Eran Sigham and if you want to find both of these gentlemen around TAM they will be available I would imagine and thanks for coming everybody