 A very good morning to you. Thanks so much for being part of this particular show. This is Power Talk. Thank you so much for tuning in to Y254 TV. My name is Ram Aguco and you're just in time for today's show. Remember we are coming to you live from our broadcasting house here in Nairobi, Kenya. We are also live on our website that is at www.kebc.co.ke for slash Y254 and share that you engage with us. Today we have a lot of stuff for you in our conversation of today and as always it is a pleasure being with you. I repeat of this show always airs each and every Thursday at 10 p.m. so tune in tonight also at 10 p.m. right here on Power Talk and get to watch this particular conversation. Well today it's all about understanding one particular perspective. One thing only and we want to talk about modesty, culture and Christianity. Modesty, culture and Christianity. Where do we draw the line? Does modesty have an effect on culture? And does culture have an effect on Christianity? Does modesty have an effect on Christianity? And does Christianity have an effect on either modesty or culture? Is it possible for us to draw the line between all these three maintaining their authenticity and at the same time ensuring that we don't overlap one for another? Today we want to understand does modesty have its limitations? Does culture have its own limitations? And does Christianity also have its own limitations? Is it possible for you to be able to be modest as a Christian? At the end of the day also ensure that you promote your cultural heritage as a Christian. How do you do it? Today we want to have this particular conversation with Dan other than Pastor Eric Baraza. He is the founder and president of Voice of Truth, which is an outreach ministry with a vision for global impact. Karibu Sana of Chungaji, also known as Pastor B. Today we'll call him Pastor B. Thank you. You're well. I'm doing good. I thank God for being here. Thank you so much for finding time to join me, my brother. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here. Keep the hashtag going. It's power, talk, show, and Twitter. It's the hashtag. Is it possible to balance modesty, culture, and Christianity? If you don't understand what you're talking about, your person is going to just give us a brief intro, an opening remarks. Is it possible for us to be able to see when, where do we draw the line, Pastor? Wow. Where do we draw the line? I think that will take us back to the beginning of everything else. I think this whole question of modesty began from the Garden of Eden, whereby the Bible says that Adam and Eve were naked, but not ashamed. That is Genesis chapter 2. Then a chapter later, that is Genesis chapter 3, the Bible says that they were naked and ashamed. So now the question is what happened? In chapter 2 they were naked but not ashamed. In chapter 3 they were naked and ashamed. I've been asking myself this question. In chapter 2 they were naked but not ashamed, but in chapter 3 they were naked and ashamed. So the perspective of nakedness changed when Adam and Eve realized what is bad and what is good. So from that particular time when Adam and Eve realized naked and not ashamed is how freely Adam and Eve were walking around the Garden of Eden. By the moment they realized that they were naked, their perspective changed. And now we live in that perspective. And the perspective says that there's a level of nakedness that is not comfortable to the people that we associate with or people that we are within the same environment with. So when you're talking about naked and not ashamed, it's like what level of, how much skin is too much? And when you're talking about how much skin is too much, we have different cultures. For example we have cultures whereby they walk naked, like some cultures I think in South Africa whereby they only cover parts of themselves. That is culturally accepted within their context. But when you come to other cultures, like for example the Muslim culture whereby they are fully known to be properly covered. The buibuis. The buibuis, yeah. You almost can't recognize someone if they're all dressed in that outfit. When you come on the Christian culture, we don't have restriction on what to wear. We don't have a defined dress code in the house of God. And whereby now you're free to wear what you deem to be okay. But now this brings out the question of now how much skin can I show as a Christian? How much is too much and how much is not too much? And I think that is where now the conversation gets serious. Modesty, culture and Christianity. And today Parthok is all about empowering you with information that will be able to boost you in terms of the knowledge you get to be a better person. This is to empower you, to give you the knowledge you need to be better. Modesty, culture and Christianity. Pastor, let me start. I want to distinguish these three. When you talk about modesty, what is your definition as a pastor about what modesty is? Because there's some people who, you know, it's defined in various ways. And there's some who say, what is modest for me? It's not for me. Yes. That's true. In our cultural context, it's very true. But now at the end of the day, we have to understand what modesty really is. If you'll ask me that question, I'll say that modesty is how you dress in realization of who you are, where you are and who you are with. I will repeat that again. Modesty is dressing with the realization of who you are, where you are and who you are with. So it depends on the environment and the people around you. And also knowing yourself in that context. You know, I see people when they, in some workplaces, they say, when you come for, for example, an interview, dress modestly. When you go to some workplaces, dress modestly. When you go to church, dress modestly. And then so many people wonder, then what is this modest dressing? Because if I put on a skirt for a lady that is, you know, at this level, they will say, it is modest for me. But that's not the case. So I think we have places whereby they have defined dress codes. For example, when you go to different organizations, they have a defined dress code. Some even come up with colors like you're supposed to come in black and blue. That is their defined dress code. When you go to certain churches, they have defined dress code. Where they'll say that you're supposed to wear white and a different color. That is defined. But now you walk in spaces whereby the dress code is not defined. Therefore, it's left to the person to deem what is necessary within that environment. So in talking about modesty, is the realization within yourself of number one, who am I? For example, being a pastor, there's a way I cannot dress and be okay within myself. I don't know if that makes sense. Yes. Being a pastor, there's a way I can dress that even I myself feel like... Can you put on jeans? I definitely can. But there comes out to the little details. What kind of jeans? You know, there's those tight jeans that hug your skin that you can't even tell the difference between the two. So within myself, how okay am I with wearing these kind of clothes? So you have to have an awareness of who you are in the society and what is the expectation? There are these jeans that have... How do I describe them? Can you put on those ones? Can I put on ragged? Is it modest? Can I put on ragged? That's a very interesting question. So it comes now down to personal convictions. What is your conviction? If my conviction is that if I put on this ragged, it may not necessarily be wrong to put on ragged, but what perception are people having of me in regards to who I am in the society? Pastor B, you deal with youths and you deal with so many people. I'm where you walk around schools and you speak to so many students. Y254 is a youth station and our focus are the same people you deal with. When you meet somebody on the streets of Nairobi with a particular kind of dress code, it could be that ragged jeans as a lady or a gentleman with a short skirt. What would be your definition of what modesty is for a youth now? What modesty is for a youth? You know, it's not like we can cast a stone and say that this is modesty. You cannot say that this clothes is not modesty. I cannot say that that jean is modesty or that skirt is modesty. I'm saying that it first has to start with the awareness of who you are and your personal conviction. Like what would be deemed modesty in the church may not be necessarily deemed modesty in the club. So that brings in the question of environment. Of course, yeah. You won't go with a student at a time in a club trying to advance the move. No, I'm talking about work. I'm talking about work. It depends with the environment and understanding who you are and the perception of the society of yourself and based on the position you hold in the society. So for a youth, I wouldn't say that putting on ragged is a modesty, but now it goes down to that personal conviction. As a young person, when I put on this ragged jeans, what perception am I giving of the people within my environment? But you know, if you're saying it depends, you're saying it depends on the environment and it depends on an individual. And of course, we are all raised in different environments, thereby making us different individuals. So some people may want, and you see, in the work environment nowadays, we see many youths come up. Of course, before it was not acceptable. It does not seem to be neat or official. A young man comes into studio or to work with a raster and then before it would be like, no, you cannot do that. But nowadays, it's changing. Because before they would say that that is not modest. But now it's changing. But now it's changing. What is this conversation that you're talking about? If you are saying that it depends on a particular individual, then everything is permissible. You can say that everything is permissible. I think we live in a very permissive time whereby things are so permissible. And I think our reference, what Paul says, is that everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial. It might be permissible but it's not beneficial. And beneficial in the aspect that it may not be a defying, particularly to the person who is wearing it and to the person who is looking at him. So we live in a category whereby when you say that depends on an individual person, now that brings us down now to the personal conviction. For example, in the Christian context, when the Bible says in the book of Psalms 89 that God is greatly to be praised and feared in the assembly of saints, it means that there's a way you approach God in worship that in as much as it comes down to personal conviction, there's a way you can dress that it goes to a point where by now you're misusing your personal right when it comes to individual convictions. There's a way I cannot appear in church and expect everybody else to be okay with me. So there has to be a limit? There has to be a limit and if we don't have limits, then I don't think there will be any gauge to judge what is right and wrong. There are families that prohibits their children from putting on certain clothes in certain times, certain ways. Is that also something that you would subscribe to? Basically it also depends with a parent. I think we live in a very... I don't know if I'll be allowed to use the word liberal. We live in a very liberal culture whereby we have the rights and recently there was this march called My Dress, My Choice. My Dress, My Choice. And I know this happened out of some incident that happened and people are carrying those things and saying My Dress, My Choice. We've had some very unfortunate incidents as well by someone who was stripped naked because of the way they were dressed that it was not good within the context of the culture or maybe it was not accepted within the public. So there are those parents who are put restriction on their kids on what they can or cannot wear. And I think this now narrows down to the parenting now. Different parents have different rules. Like when you're growing up in my home, like my dad will not allow my sister to wear a trouser. And I remember him telling her outrightly that the only time you're allowed to wear trousers is when you're in your husband's house. So then I may not understand from what context he was saying it but this was his clear rule when it comes to his house. As long as it's not in his house? As long as it's not in his house. She can do that elsewhere else but as long as it's not in his house. And also we also miss a point here when it comes to modesty when we start putting on these do's and don'ts, we become legalistic in a sense. We also have churches where we have, there's a church sometimes back that even had pictures on the door of the clothes you're not allowed to enter with in the service. It's still there. There are many churches that say women should not go to church with trousers. They're definitely there. You're a pastor. Would you say that should be the case? Are you subscribing to it? You can add in your voice on that. I'll add in my voice on that in the sense that modesty cannot really be defined by the do's and don'ts but by giving principles that are supposed to guide the person or not to dress, then they can draw from that particular principle what is right and wrong. For example, number one as a Christian, when I dress like this, what is my testimony as a Christian? There's a way I will dress but there will not be any difference between me and an unbeliever. That is one. That is a testimony of our faith. So when I dress like this, are people able to see, as believers, the Bible says that you're the written epistles. When people see you, can they see the Christ in you? And the Bible says that Jesus saves and when he saves, I believe he saves to the utmost. He doesn't save you and not save your wardrobe. What do you mean? He doesn't save you and leave the wardrobe aside. Are you saying the wardrobe also has to be saved? Basically what I believe, it's not something that happens immediately. You don't walk into a church, you've been putting on a racket for the past, God knows how long. Then you walk into a church, you've been saved and you have suits and all these knives and clothes that are deemed to be modest. It's a journey that happens. So if you get born again or you serve your Christian, you claim to be born again. Even the clothes, your wardrobe has to be born again. If I may say so, yes. We've heard this saying, I know you've heard about it, where they say, come as you are. Of course. Have you heard something like that? Yes, yes, yes. Come as you are. But one thing we tend to forget is that come as you are is not a description of how saints are to attain the love service. So for the born again, don't just come as you are. So this one is an invitation for sinners, because they don't know better. But if you know better, you do better. So come as you are, in a sense, is an invitation for sinners to come. And once they have come, they're able to be fed on the right word and this word is able to transform them from the inside out. So modest dressing starts from the inside before it gets out. And that's why I believe that before we start talking about modesty in the Christian context, we have to talk about from biblical perspective, whereby we have to talk about it, what does it mean for a Christian to be modest? Because Paul talks about women should be dressed in modesty. So once you get into the church now, you're able to learn as a Christian, how am I conveying the testimony of my faith? There are families that are having struggles with their children, as we speak. Their children are now going to be rebellious. Children are saying that, no, mom and dad, you cannot control how I dress. I have freedom. I have my own rights to choose the kind of dress code that I want. I have my own freedom and rights to even choose the kind of hairstyle. You know, there are people who say, for a man, a father will say to the son, I say to the son, when I wake up, it's a culture. It's about modesty. They say, you don't look modest the way you are. Or there's this young man who wants to have a raster, and then the parents are like, no, you cannot have this raster. How should the youths now conceive all this information? Because it's now, youths feel like they are being infringed. Like their rights are being taken away. Yes. I think now that comes back now to parenting. As a parent, what are the values that are even still in your child when they are growing? The Bible says that raise up a child in the way they should go. That when they are old, they are not able to depart from those ways. And as Swahili said, I hope that is what it says. I hope that is what it says. I hope that is what it says. So change is not something that happens once. It's not instant. It's very gradual. So if you're trying to train your child on how to dress, I think it has to start at an age where they're able to make these changes. You don't just wake up one day then you're telling your teen that now you're not supposed to have this kind of hairstyle in my house. Though some parents do that for some reasons, but I think it starts from how are you raising them up. But now, of which brings me to my next question. How are you raising them? Yes. Train up a child according to how you want them to be and they will not depart from it. Yes, that is true. Yet we have this notion and perspective that exists and I'm sure you've heard of it, that what kind of way do you see what kind of way? Times have changed. Times have changed. And it's true. How things were before. It's not how things are now. It's not the same. It's true. Things have really changed. For example, suits. Our parents, their suits used to be extra large. They were very baggy. If I used one baggy with all the due respect. But now, as times goes by, I don't know if you're running out of material. I don't know if you're running out of material. I think you're running out of material. I think you're running out of materials. But they're becoming more expensive. So in that time, they used to have at least enough space for ventilation. But you realize nowadays, as time goes by, we rarely have even space to breathe within our suits. They call it slim fit. Yes, slim fit now. In that time, these things never existed. But in that time now, for you to look classy and in tune with times, you have to show up in a slim fit suit. And that is the time we're living in today. Like for example, even the scouts. In the olden times, you're considered to be modest if your scar does not touch your uncle. Yeah, but then if your scar come in a fagia... You're very modest. But come in a fagia, you're not modest. But nowadays, you see... They're even proposing for marriage. Definitely, they're even proposing for marriage. And that was also one of the considerations when our parents are trying to suggest who to marry. Like you see that lady, I love the way she dresses. She seemed to be like a good person. But now, we no longer wear those. It's very rare. So nowadays, it has gone even past the knees. And my question is, are we running out of material still? So I think the times have changed. Even our dressing has changed. But now, with all these changes, is when we come to now, how much skin is too much? And that is where now this conversation gets very touchy. Because to some extent, we talk about this, and then we become legalistic. Where by now, we put on rules that are of men on what to and what not to do. So when it comes to now, this how much skin is too much skin, now it comes back to what is my cultural context. Number one, I started by saying that modesty is when you dress with respect for yourself, for God, and for those around you. Number one, if I put on a short skirt, for example, in the context of whereby I'm meeting elderly people, does it show respect to them? That is the first thing. The other thing is that when I dress like this in a given environment, does it honor the occasion? For example, this guy who had been married to the wife for like 23 years, and now it was a time they're celebrating their 23rd anniversary. So the wife calls the guys like, today I'm going to make reservations at the hotel, but because you'll be coming late from work, I'll go ahead and make reservations. So the guy went to work, but because he was living late, and he had to pass through his tennis game, he put on his tennis clothes and went to the tennis game, then after he finished, he went straight to the hotel for the dinner. So this guy showed up in his tennis outfit, the short and his tennis outfit for a dinner. And the wife is at the dinner expecting the husband to come for the celebration of the 23rd anniversary. So was this guy wrong to dress like this? No. Why? Because he just came straight from the tennis game. But the wife will like you. You shouldn't have issues. Yeah, yeah. So now, the wife will ask you, how dare you come dress like this on such an important occasion? So occasions also dictate, what am I supposed to wear? So because this guy showed up in tennis shoes, it does not mean he does not love the wife. He does. But my dressing communicates that I did not take this occasion as important enough to dress for it. So sometimes our dressing is supposed to be a show of reverence for the occasion with which we are participant. For example, if you invited to the White House or let's say to the state house for a state dinner with the president, his excellency, Huru Kenyatta, and you show up in ragged jeans to the state dinner, how will that be perceived? Number one, it would be a show of disrespect for the occasion and the presidency. That's what people need to understand. You should dress in accordance with the occasion. There's an occasion that calls for you to dress in ragged. There's an occasion that calls for you to dress in a suit. Like for example, you don't go to an interview in ragged. What if someone is not their style? They just don't know how to put on that suit. They don't know how to put on that casual. For example, I have tried jeans in many shoes. And that is now your test, that is your personal conviction. There's an occasion that now necessitates a given dress code. For example, when you go for an interview, you don't come the way you feel like. You come in mind with how your interview is going to perceive you. If someone showed up in an interview and then they came in shorts, number one, I think they have not taken this job interview seriously and so they just showed up. Number two, they have no respect for me. And number three, were they aware of where they were going? So I think there are some occasions and events and places that are going to dictate a defined dress code. Now, I want us to touch on relationships. And this is where things get rough. Let me give a case scenario because I've seen one particular real-life situation. This lady brings in a guy to meet the parent. The guy is in dreadlocks. And as you see nowadays, the language is so different. Yeah, it's shang and slang. Yeah, slang. You know, mayangs, bad things, details, you name it. The guy, they knock on the door and the father cheeses this man away. And the father says, you cannot bring a man in dreadlocks in my house. Your voice on that? Wow. You cannot bring a man in dreadlocks in my house as a prospective husband. Wow. So I want to believe that one thing that parents also need to understand is that we live in a different dispensation, that things have changed. I think we have to all agree that things have changed. Their measurements on suit is not the same. Their hairstyle is definitely not the same. We didn't have Mohawk during that time. Yeah, I remember Mohawk. My goodness. We didn't have Mohawks during that time. We didn't have these hairstyles that are very elaborate and distinguished during the times. In fact, they didn't even go to saloons maybe in those times. But now things have changed and times have changed and because times have changed, we have to look at things now from a different perspective. Now, what should a parent do now? What should a parent do secondly? What should that lady do? Let's start with the parent. The parent should understand one, times have changed. And therefore look at the prospective husband to be within the context of the times. That is the first thing. The lady now has to understand what does the occasion calls for? If I'm taking my Jama'at to meet my parents, he has to dress in a way that shows respect for himself. Amir, you're a rasta. You cannot change that. You cannot change that. That is the rasta you can only give to me. And the parent will say, I'll give it to you later. It also comes from a particular school of thought. There are those people who believe that if someone has dreadlocks, they're not straightforward people, like probably they're thieves or they're corns. There's that perception, there's that school of thought. And that school of thought that if you come in jeans, you're not a guy of integrity. So there are these schools of thoughts. And I think we have to come to a point whereby we bring all these schools of thoughts together and understand how are we supposed to look at this within the changing times. For example, now we even have pastors today with dreadlocks. I don't know if you've seen them. I have, I have. We do, right? We now have pastors with dreadlocks. Before you could not be a pastor in any church with dreadlocks. Because number one, it's not a good image for the ministry or rather the church. Now that you do, okay. Before we get there, I'll advice this lady. Advice this lady. Number one, the lady now has to, I believe the gentleman understands where he's going. That is one. Because the occasion that you attend dictates the kind of dressing. But now it's not dressing. Now it's the hair. So does the gentleman shave? Should he shave? Should he shave? Simply because it's going to be the father-in-law. I don't think the gentleman should shave. The lady now has to go before the gentleman. Before he's arrived? Before he's arrived. Before he's arrived. Like the Joe the Baptist will prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah. She has to play the role of Joe the Baptist and talk to the parents like, excuse me dad. I'm bringing so and so home but you have to understand this about so and so. This guy has dreadlocks. Then the father is able to voice his perception on that. How he looks at him. Then the lady, you know the father has these different schools of thoughts and ideas like these people are like this and this. Now the lady is able to convince the dad. I know we think that these people are like this and that but this is who he is. And if it's a father who has the best interest of the daughter at heart and understand, we're like, okay, let him come. Then from there you're able to see was my judgment on him based on his hairstyle true or not. Because now you're able to interact with the person and at least get to know them. And one thing about this putting do's and don'ts on dress code it denies as an opportunity to know that people beyond their dress. Because I will block you based on how you dress even without giving you a chance so that I can interact with you and know that your dressing does not define who you are. It even happens even amongst youth ourselves. When we are interacting amongst each other we tend to judge each other based on the person who is dressing in a particular way or who has this certain kind of hairstyle which will not be the case even amongst ourselves. And that's why some people will say I got to accept a proposal from a guy who is dressing in such a thing. And I think it's very unfortunate because we don't allow ourselves to know them beyond their dress code probably their hairstyle. And I think it becomes unfair because you dismiss me based on what I'm dressed without knowing the kind of hat that I carry. So it's always good to give them room. I will call the benefit of a doubt to at least know them before you dismiss them based on how they dress or how they look like. So I think the lady should go ahead and talk to the dad about these guys like he puts on his dreadlocks and probably come from that culture. You know there's a culture, there's a foreign culture, right? It's a cat on its own, it has its own right. He's Arab-Staffarian probably. And this is what they believe but this person is not who you may think him to be. So just give room for time so that you can know him. Then from there you're able to judge him not based on how he looks like but who he is. So the parents should be flexible to listen. The parents should be flexible to understand. Number one, times have changed. And number two, it is very unfair to judge someone based on how he looks. Now, sometimes the parent has been flexible. I'm a cuja, I'm a kukaribisha, and the parent still says no. What should this lady know? Now the parent has been flexible. I said no. Should the lady now be flexible? Wow. So I think no parent in his rightful mind will dismiss a potential son or daughter-in-law based on how they're dressed. That would be very unfortunate and probably unfair. And I think for a parent to say no, it has to be beyond the dress. Because a parent will say that I am your father, I am your mother. You bring someone like that. She will say that I am your father, but I always let her come to my house. Wow. Then that's when the rabbi now meets the road. I want to give a different case scenario here. There is a gentleman also, it's all about understanding modesty, distention, culture. There's a gentleman who is struggling, I'm sure, with a particular case whereby he is of a particular belief system that another comes to him by her party, her vaivy. Her vaivy. I also heard that. When I was young. You did that? Yes, I did. I've been raised up in a conservative Christian family. And conservative in the sense that everything you did had to have a reference from the scripture. You know that those who come from such conservative families are very cultured. Like your parents will tell you, ladies are dressed like this, like that and that. So when I was growing up I used to have this perception that I want a lady that dresses as cut this long. I want a lady that has this hairstyle. I want a lady that is going to put on makeup. I want her natural. What should you do? This guy believes. No, he believes. Number one, this is the way you dress. I want those long dresses. Long dresses. No trousers. No makeup. No makeup. I don't make up. Three, you don't put on those wigs. Because they serve, you know, for me, I find it to be scary when they... They remove them. They remove them. So totally different person. Different... All of a sudden, it's kind of plain. How should men handle such kind of things now? Because now these are different in regards to culture and... And times. Yeah. But basically now it comes back to an individual. Like we all have different preferences and choices. For example, what I prefer may not be necessarily what you prefer. And what you prefer may not be what I prefer. And for a man, like when I was growing up, I had this perception that I needed someone who dresses like this, or someone who puts on this and this. And I think it's important to understand that now this one comes to now personal conviction. Like I want my wife to look like this. And I had that. But now with time, I realize that that changed because I realize when living at different times. So now I didn't necessarily want to define how long this cut should be or how tight the trouser should be. I needed to understand that this person is not necessarily what they're dressed is who they are. Yeah. So for... Sorry for cutting you show, but as you add on top of that, this gentleman has brought in this lady to the family. Because at some point you became flexible. Oh yeah, yeah, I did. Correct. You became flexible. And that's why I'm married. Come on. Are you saying if you're not flexible, you won't be married? I don't know, but that's why I'm married. Because if I was looking for someone with a long skirt, you realize it's very hard now to find someone with scars that goes to their uncles. So if that was my standard then, do you think I'll have gotten a wife by now? What if this guy decides to be flexible? Though you're flexible. But the parents are not. The parents will say, this is not a channa and I have vai hivi, hanahi, hanahi. You've brought in some lady, for some of us they call them slay queens, or what not, for lack of a term, of which that's also controversial. But you've brought in that light-skinned lady with makeup from head to toe to the parent who you? This one belongs in the streets. This one is for the wife material. What do you think? I think when it comes to makeup and modesty, there has to be moderation. And moderation talks about the limit. So that you don't abuse the liberty of our times. And abuse comes from abnormal use. What do you mean by abnormal use? Something is tameless abuse when it's used abnormally. In other words, it's been used beyond the extent that is expected. For instance, in terms of makeup, there's a level of makeup that goes beyond what will be deemed as necessary. There's a statement I've used in the book whereby I'm describing a scenario that I experienced. I went to one of these churches for a Sunday morning service and the lady who was leading present worship was dressed in a skirt that does not even qualify to be called a skirt. And her lips... When I say it doesn't qualify to be called a skirt, I think we can call it micro mini skirt. Or micro mini, not just a mini. So there has to be moderation. There has to be moderation, like in terms of makeup. There's that makeup that you say, I think you went a little bit too far. Yeah, this was not necessary. When it comes to how short you say, I think you went a little bit too far, you'll have done better. So there has to be moderation. But now here comes the question, how far is too far? How far is too far? How short is too short? Too short. And I think now that's where we always push the envelope. Like how far is too far and how short is too short? Now, same question. What should the parents do? The son has brought you a lady that is like that, makeup, short skirt, mini mini. What should a parent do? And for a son, what do you do? Who should be flexible for who and how should each you react? Let's start with the parent. Wow, I think this one calls now for handshake. I think this one calls for compromise. I'd rather handshake in a context. I think this calls for compromise. We have what you call the bare minimum. The bare minimum. This is the bare minimum. The parent has to come to a compromise with the daughter, rather the son, who is trying to do something that he may not like based on how they dress or how they appear. So the parent has to understand. Number one, I'll just say that the times are different. But now with the times changing, there has to be a limit on how far is too far and how short is too short. I'll just say now it calls now for moderation on the part of the person who is perceived as the violator of these expectations. And I think that now comes to the person. And I don't think anyone in their rightful mind, I want to believe, will go to his father-in-law in such kind of dressing. Because number one, you have to show respect for them. Right? So if you know I'm going to meet my father-in-law, I'm very sure no man in his rightful mind will go to his father-in-law in some dressing. So this one now brings us to what is the occasion? So the occasion does not call for this short. It might be short, but it doesn't have to be this short. So this dressing, does it match the occasion? So that is the first question. If it does not match the occasion, then I have to revise my dressing. So if I'm going to see my father-in-law, that's what you see when people are going to, or probably to meet their in-laws, these are defined as good. And he doesn't put on vitenges from January. It's an occasion. I've never seen any other. Have you seen any vitenges? Mostly vitenges. And this is not why it's vitenges, because this is how it's culturally perceived. Even when people start suspecting that there's something going on between you and the lady, they'll always have this question. I don't know if you've been asked that question. I have. You've already been asking. It's either vitenges or vitenges, because the occasion calls for that. So we have to understand what is the occasion. So the question of the daughter-in-law bringing this guy in this dress code, I want to believe that this guy understands the occasion. And if he goes in this kind of way, then probably he didn't understand the occasion. And the occasion calls for a defined dress code. Okay. So I think now it's understanding the occasion. So if the guy goes there like that, then the blame is on him. He didn't understand the occasion. Now there are people who believe. Now let's come up from the family setting to the business setting. In our place, there are people who believe that if I put on a particular outfit and you have a problem with it, that is not my problem. It is your problem, so deal with it. It's true. And that is why I think so that you don't offend someone, that's why I think some organizations have come up with defined dress codes. We even have the casual friders in some companies. We have casual friders. And the reason is because clothes do communicate. In fact, clothes say more than words will ever say. There's a way I can dress to say something that I'm not saying with words. So in the business setup, there's a defined dress code for girls that have come to work. Wonderful. I want us to give you another example here. But now this one goes to either men or women depending on the case scenario. There are, of course, let me start with the ladies. There are many ladies who want to impress. Yeah. But now for you to impress, you have to... I don't know. I've also been impressed. You're very impressed? Yeah, I've been impressed. They have ladies who want to impress. But now, in order for them to do that, they will have to put in some effort. And you will see that, this lady used to dress like this before. But now they're dressing like this today. Why they changed? Should we do that? When a lady has a crush on a gentleman, she dresses in a particular way to get his attention. She would like to put on that short skirt. At least, if a lady is dressing in a certain pasta. Uh-huh. Now we're going back to the pasta, sir. Pullpins. At least, I'm going to be like a dog, saying, we are going to do that. You're going to answer that question after this break. How should we behave? Especially when it comes to, you want to impress somebody. How far is too far? And then after this break, you're also going to tell us more about modesty in terms of the tongue. We have talked about modesty in terms of dressing. But can we be modest? In our speech. Can modesty also imply there? And also, what are present worship or karnisa? Wow. Out of present worship. Let's talk about that. This is very sensitive. After this break, let's take a short break. But keep your questions coming in on our Facebook page. Y254 is where you can find us. That's like his power talk show at Ram Aguko. And that Y254 channel is where we are. This is power talk. We'll take your short break. We'll be back in a bit. Y254. Imagine. And we're back with this conversation. This is an understanding about modesty, Christianity and culture. We have done modesty and a bit of Christianity. But before we finish on that and then touch on culture. I'm with Eric Baraza. He's a pastor dealing with talking to us about this particular conversation here. So ensure that you continue talking to us on our social media handles. The hashtag is one of its power talk show at Ram Aguko and at Y254 channel. We have a lot of fellow monks and jibbers following with Pastor Eric. I'm with Eric Baraza. He's a good guy. I hope that's a good thing. He's a good guy. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's encouraging. Thank you so much. Now we're talking about culture. Before we went on that break you were talking about how modesty is and what we should and should not do. I want us to touch on the example that I've given trying to and they normally say dress to kill. Wow. Dress to impress. What are the limits here? Dress to kill. Wow, that sounds dangerous. Of course not literally. Not literally. Dress to kill. We have what we call the social pressure and the trends of our times because we have our fashion keeps changing. We also need to appear fashionable in our culture today. You want to dress in a way that your prospective guy will see that you have a test for fashion which puts a lot of pressure especially on ladies because they want to impress and largely from biological perspective men are very visual. Men are very visual and we're visual being. Even the Bible says in the book of we are very visual that whoever looks at Oman and last for high is already committed that inside. So the Bible recognizes the visual aspect of men and because men are visual, ladies have realized this is the way to get their attention. So being a visual being for me to get your attention number one I have to look appealing if not attractive. But that should not be the case. One thing I believe about this is that what what gets his attention is what will keep his attention. Powerful. Really your attention. What gets his attention is what will keep his attention. Wow. So if what got his attention was your short skirt you will need to put on short skirts to sustain a relationship. Because what gets his side is what keeps it going. Ladies who make a banana who is your sunshine? What gets his attention is what keeps it. It means we need to be really concerned about what actually attracts us to our partners and what attracts them to us. And I think men also have perspectives on how women's dress. There is a school of thought for men that ladies who dress in a particular way they are very easy going. If I may use that term with a lot of respect we say that because they are dressed like that they look like they are easy going. And because they are easy going I always tell my friends if you dress like a buffet don't be surprised when men treat you like a piece of meat. I don't know if I am allowed to repeat that without anyone throwing stones in the studio. Rudia tena. So if you dress like a buffet don't be surprised when men treat you like a piece of meat. The invitation that you issued the invitation that you give is what lays the carpet of welcome. So if if you are dressing like this to get his attention with a short skirt you will need short skirts to maintain this relationship. And that is why you see some ladies they get married and their husband is always attracted to them with their short skirts. By the time they change their dress code the husband starts looking elsewhere because what God's attention is not what he has at home. Wow. And I think it takes wisdom for you to understand that it doesn't have to be my short skirt that attracts him to him but my personality. But what about trends? And I think there is that pressure whereby we want to look the part. We want to look like we are in terms of false trending. What does that mean? And I think there are people who are actually told that you are a very young lady dressed like an old woman. Yeah. And I think there are there are those men who want that kind of a lady and there are those men that want this kind of a lady. There is a man who is attracted or rather finds ladies with short skirts very appealing because to them it keeps their attention. And there is this man who finds ladies in long dresses very appealing. So number one, the pressure of dressing in a particular way, it may work for you or work against you. So it will work for you in the sense that you will get his attention. Right? So now you have his attention, now he is all yours. But the problem is is that what drew him to you? If that is what drew him to you then you will need that thing to sustain him in that relationship. Because when you change, then there is no future for this relationship. So you have lost him. So that is one thing. It may work for you there but it may not be sustainable. So select what you want carefully. Yeah. Select. What you select is what you need to sustain it. It's true. So you have to decide what is he being drawn to me? What is it that is drawing him? If it's your dress code then you have to maintain it to sustain him. But if it's your personality then you don't need to be worried about the trends in in terms of dress code change. Because he didn't get your attention or he didn't get his attention because of what you are wearing but because of who you are. But now, at the end of the day there is something that I am also wondering are men to be blamed? Because women are trying so hard to dress to impress. You see throughout this conversation we are talking about women dress well. Do this ladies, ladies do this. What about the men? Are men to be blamed here? Yes. And you focus on beauty that is inward. The brains there. The brains. But you see now talking about to focus on the tabia it takes time to know someone's character. It's not instantaneous. You don't just meet someone. People of integrity, it takes time to know them. But you see men, we are not very patient. We are very we are very micro ever. We just want to things proper. So we don't take time to know the person and that's why we always get drawn by what we see at first. Men judge first by visual then try to justify what they saw using other reasons. Shouldn't men change that particular approach? I think men should change that approach if they want to have good relationships because you cannot judge someone on how good they would be as a wife based on how they are dressed. Because they are putting on long skirts they are not having makeup they will make a good wife. It's so hard to judge on that. And that is why I think it takes time for you to know someone beyond their dress. And I think men we have to go beyond the looks. Correct. We have to go beyond the looks. Men need to change how we look. Love at first sight. We need to have second, third and fourth sight. Because first sight is very deceptive at some extent. That love is not blind. Love is not blind. And if love is blind then marriage is an eye opener. Correct. It's not blind. Love has eyes, can read between lies, identify a lie and fly away like a butterfly. There are so many things you have not touched on. I want us to talk on the perspective of culture. Different cultures have different beliefs. And they have different belief systems that at the end of the day influence how they handle each other. You give two very good examples and I love what you said. One, you compare the Kenyan culture with the South African culture. South African culture. In South Africa they have the way they dress. I don't know what tribe that is. I'm trying to remember the name of this particular social group. I can't remember. It starts with an S. And there is a way they are. They only cover the front. But in Kenya we have yet another type of culture that is different. How do we balance all these cultures so that we embrace one another and have a strong relationships? And I think when it comes to modesty in itself, we have to understand the cultural context. Because the way I dress in Kenya is not necessarily how I will dress in South Africa. Let's live along South Africa and go abroad. The way I dress in Kenya is not how I will dress in the US. Even Nigeria for example. When it comes to modesty we have to understand what is deemed as modest within a particular culture. If I go to the Masais and I'm putting on a suit I may be looked at as funny. This is not culturally viable within that context. When I go to the Masais and people will not look at me funny. So the culture dictates what will I put on in a particular place. So when I go to the Zulu there's a particular community in South Africa that literally covers the vitals if I may call them that. They literally cover the vitals, the sensitive parts of a human being. And if I go there with my suit I will look like an outcast because this is not what is culturally viable in the context. But then how do you balance? Because you're going in a foreign place or let's say the foreign place has come to where you are. How do you balance as a Christian? How do you balance as a Christian? As a Christian the Bible says it's supposed to be as wise as happens and as harmless as doves. So wisdom calls for you to understand the cultural context of where you are. So as a Christian now I'm probably in those tribes that only cover the vitals. Paul says to them I became like them so that I can win them. So when I go there I will not go with my suit. Because the context within that culture dictates differently. So we can't be rigid. No you cannot be rigid. And I think we'll only be fair when you're talking about modesty when you look at it from a cultural context. We cannot have a blanket perspective on culture. We have to understand that culture is defined within the context. But can that affect the pulpit? The pulpit. Yeah now. This is the church culture. When you talk about the pulpit it's a different ball game all by itself. Now let's talk about the pulpit in Kenya. There's a defined dress code. When you go to the book of the Old Testament the priest had defined dress code. whereby even God gave the colors the purpose of the day is to worship God. That is the main business. And to keep focus on worship. But now if you walk into that space whereby this is expected to happen there then you come in a way that distract then it's not really welcome because it is not what is allowed within that particular setting. For example we live in a time whereby even in the praise and worship you find some of our sisters in Christ putting on some very tempting and very distracting dressing dress codes. Yeah. So I don't know if you've been there. I mean you go to church and you're like wow am I still in church? And I think now that comes down to what is what is the occasion? Is it that modernization is affecting the church or what is it that we're looking into here because now these ladies will come and they will look so beautiful in heels. Oh yeah. They will knock as they walk tap tap tap to the front you'll be left You'll definitely be distracted. Men are visual beings. And he's still visual. He's still visual. Yeah definitely. And one thing we have to understand in as much as we want to be spiritual your feelings don't get accept. The flesh doesn't get accept. So we still have the human aspect of us, the visual part of us. We are still provoked by what we see as men. And I think also ladies do but now there's a difference in degree when it comes to men and women. So now when it comes to the church we have to just understand that this is not the place for this dressing. I think that settles this like this is not the place in a way that is not distracting. And I know we all know what is distracting in as much as you try to assume that we don't know. Even the lady dressing like that she knows that this one will get their heads turning. She definitely knows in as much as she may not admit she knows. And God forbid that she has an intention of distracting the man of God or probably someone in the church. And that is why you see men of God are today caught up in all these sex scandals. Because the temptation in the house of God is so intense that the dress of God cannot sustain their peace in their pants. I don't know if it's too I don't know if it's higher than the club boat but... There's a place there's a place I once went to to the service whereby you could almost you see this see through dresses. You could almost see everything from you know we have the lights nowadays we have lights. Because of cameras cameras and lights. So this lady was dressing a see through and you could literally you didn't need no discernment or power of imagination to see what was behind the dress. And I also saw this man of God he had his trousers right at his bad cheeks you could see the boxers and I was like wow. Sucking? Yes definitely sucking and you know we have these yoyo preachers. Oh sorry I don't know if yoyo is the right one to use on this show you know we have these preachers who have they come with sagged trousers and open battle and battle. Try to be dot com dot com and battle and this is the culture that we're living in. But as Christians what defines our culture is not the trends it is the word of God. Let me go to Facebook. Wow people commenting Felix and Gibi are many Pateo Jina Hoi Hoi and the son of Hoi Hoi There are the ones who just cover the vitals Thank you Felix, thank you Felix Anasema following their conversation Cracks blaze Anasema, are they dressed to kill? Who died when Jesus is alive? Since they started dressing to kill how many have died? They should start saving the money and start up a business. Yeah you know dressing to kill has. Our churches are full of serial killers today. We have a lot of serial killers in our pulpits and in our podiums and our churches we're dressed to kill and when you're talking about dressed to kill I don't believe it means in its literal sense. It means to kill the moral conviction. Because one thing about men is that because we're visual what we see impact us in different ways and because now I cannot get the lady that provoked me sexually that pushes me to a different area of compromise. Probably now that's why most men because they're finding alternative to their craving that's why most of them are caught up in pornography they're caught up in masturbation because they're trying to give a release to a pressure that was imposed on them at a place that's supposed to be so we also need to understand where am I? A place where you're supposed to get that release you begin to feel some tension. Yeah. What is the problem here? Is it that the bishops and the senior pastors are allowing it? Is it the leaders of the prison or are allowing such things because wow you're a father and everything is out. Most of us will not Rukia Buanna because we're so limited if you're Rukia Buanna then people are going to be shocked out of their seats. So we also need to come back to the clergy class society the men of God. This men of God have to teach on this and you know it's a subject that not many men of God will teach on because it's very sensitive because maybe 50% of my present worship team dresses like that so if I talk about this I'm going to lose my vocalist and if my vocalist is lost then what happens to the future of my present worship team? So I think we have to come to a point where men of God have to understand that this is a healthy conversation that we need to have especially now. When you live in a time where bicastral Fridays have become casual Sundays. This is why we need to have this conversation ladies and gentlemen we are not bashing anybody we are trying to empower you to know how to handle things. Even I spoke about empowerment and how to handle things you said you're married and one day we'll have a session where you'll talk about how it has been to advise the youth of marriage a pastor's wife together with the pastor decide to go out and they go to Mombasa on vacation or they come to Mombasa they have some good hotels good swimming pools good cleaning my goodness they don't have to be a pastor they have to be clean and then they will be like that is not right some will say that is okay some will say what you're taking I think as a man of God we are held to a different standard and that is one thing we have to admit as a man of God we are held on a different standard that means that how people look at me is very different to how they look at a congregant so as a man of God there is a standard I am supposed to uphold and when it comes to modesty there is a standard I am supposed to uphold but that does not mean that I go on vacation in Mombasa with my suit of course I won't in as much as I want to appear spiritual saved and going to heaven on first class to Mombasa in my suit or in my robe for that matter I will get there and I'll put on my nice shorts and I'll put on my nice beach vest and my wife also there will be in her nice things even as a pastor should you be in your shorts as a man of God yes I should but now the question now this one now it gets tricky I should be in my short and my wife should be in her in her whatever but now who are we letting into this audience because they also go on this beach and these vacations and then they take photos and then you know we live in a social media generation and we want to share every moment so now we will post them on Facebook in as much as it was right for me to be on the beach on my shorts I was not supposed to be in my suit there's a way I cannot share these pictures because number one it is going to be offensive to my congregants and number two is going to compromise my standing as a man of God I won't share this photo there has to be a limit that's why now it becomes abuse what if it's a church event and you say I'm going to retreat we're going to a retreat in Mombasa I don't know the best place to go Nyali and then after Umefika Uko you know people are and then we swim and pastor here in Tokyo and show it here mama we call them first ladies nowadays first lady in Tokyo first lady in Tokyo first lady in Tokyo and it actually happens and I think in that context now this one now the occasion now it brings me out to the occasion this is the occasion for this dress code but as much as this is the occasion for this dress code it doesn't have to be to the extreme there has to be a limit to it whereby if I dress like this as much as it's the occasion that calls for it it gives me to how much I can expose as the bishop or the pastor or as the man of God for that particular time so it comes to the limit and I think it loses the balance whereby now we share this not so godly pictures on social media and I think that calls for wisdom now you don't share everything on social media which brings me back before that I'm seeing that somebody is saying whose fault is it if people are distracted because the issue of because this issue is an issue of gender doesn't everyone have values I think the man is justifying them I think we are trying to justify the way men act I can rest how I didn't fit whoever is distracted is misplaced in church that person is very very right the bible does not give does not talk about modesty in view of how a man reacts when he sees too much of a woman's skin that is one thing we have to understand it does not the bible does not define modesty based on a man's reaction to a woman's dressing so modesty is not motivated by what a man will see and be attracted to it's defined by what is right for example it's important for men to understand that the first thing women need to understand is the visual aspect of men that is one thing you have to understand that men are visual now understanding that men are visual the bible says we should be your brother's keeper I don't know why it says brothers not sisters I beg to ask the bible says we should be the bible says be your brother's keeper now for me to be your keeper I have to understand you I have to understand what ticks you off ticks you off. So because I want to be your keeper, I have to understand what is your area of weakness. So if the issue is that, so men, women should dress in reference or in consideration of men. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. So because you know that they are visual, you have to dress in consideration of them. And there are also those men, in as much as it may be in a long dress, there are those men who still have sexual thoughts. I don't know if you know that. There are those who will see you naked even in a robe. Pastor, time is not on our side and I really wanted to touch on this. Talk about this, modest in terms of our speech. Briefly, quickly. A modest in terms of our speech is just being careful in our choice of words. Like, what language are you using within what context? There's a language I'll use in church that I will not use outside there. So modest in terms of speech is understanding your language, your choice of words based on the context or the place where you are. So when it comes to modest, also we have modest in speech, whereby your words has to be within a given context. The language you use here at work is not the language you'll use outside there. Is Sheng improper or indecent in church? No, it's not. Sheng is not improper or indecent in church. It's a means of communication. And you're communicating to a particular age group. There's an age group now that is very fluent with Sheng. And even Tango because we have some Sheng Bible studies, I don't know if you've heard of. I tried attending one, but I didn't understand anything. So you see, they're trying to reach a given group of people because if language is a barrier, then let's look for a way to get to them. The Bible says that how will they hear unless someone speak and how will they speak and let them be sent. So I think there's a language for a particular context. All right. So Sheng is not bad. One thing that I love is Pastor here has a book, Eric Baraza has a book, naked but not ashamed. Powerful book here. You make sure that, when did you release it? I think it's two weeks now. Yeah, two weeks now. It's just new now. It's two weeks. Naked but not ashamed. Thank you so much, Pastor Baraka for Baraza for joining me today. It's been an honor. I should invite you again. You should. And I'll be glad to be back here. Don't you just love this guy? He has really, people are smiling again in studio. I want us to bring this conversation to a close and I'm going to end with a quote. Tell me what you think. Do you agree with this or not? Well, modesty isn't about hiding your body. It's about revealing your dignity. Amen. Wow. Could it have been better than that? That should close the show now. That should close the show. Thank you so much for being part of today's show. This is Power Talk, big thanks to Dr. Baraza, big thanks to each and everyone that ensures today's show was a success. My name is Ram Aguko and this is Power Talk.