 You're welcome back. This is still the run-up. As it stands, Attiku, Tinobu, and Obii, who are the leading candidates in the February 25 presidential election, have one corruption allegation or the other leveled against them. And Nigerians, who are the voters, may have no choice but to choose one of them, which some people will say, between the devil and the deep blue sea, or a lesser evil. With no debt, while no debt has been dug up against the presidential candidate of the New Nigeria People's Party, Dr. Rabyo Kwan-Kwosso, who people say is the fourth person who is leading in this race, the former governor of Kanu State, however, does not enjoy the nationwide acceptance like the three others. Recently, there had been accusations and counter accusations between the APC, PDP, and LP over alleged corruption of their principles. The presidential campaign council of APC threw the first punch when it asked security agencies in the country to invite arrest, interrogate, and prosecute Attiku Abu Bakar over what the party described as Attiku Gate. Joining us to discuss these are Amashala Deji, political scientists, and Mr. Charles, or two, political analysts as well. Gentlemen, good morning and welcome to the run-up. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Okay. We were hoping that this 2023 elections and the campaigns, especially, will be issue-based more than anything else. And now we're seeing a semblance of what has always happened in the other years, and maybe even more bitter, because it seems to see some of the candidates that are in the race are very, very desperate. From one camp to the other, even though it's not from presidential candidates themselves, but their left hands are the ones that are throwing punches left, right, and center. And we're wondering, should these people even be in the race anymore? What can be done to curtail these vertebrations, if I may use the words, to curtail this kind of unhealthy banter? Because according to some Nigerians, this is very unhealthy. We should be talking of something else. So what are your suggestions to clip the wings of these people who talk too much, as it were? Let me begin with you, Mr. Ohtu. Thank you very much. So I move the situation in Nigeria today, like you pointed out, there are no sins. And then, because politics itself, like political scientists would tell us, is conflict. Part of what is going on is part of the political process. You have heard, of course, during the debates in the US, between Trump and Biden. They were also throwing a punch. So it is not unexpected in politics. But the truth is that part of what has kept this presidential election in first and at the trigger is the fact that the candidates have had the full opportunities. We've gravitated from an era where people used to buy coins along the road from the consular. And that's around where the people eat delicacies along the road to show their stability. I'm happy that we are not talking about issues. I'm also happy that they took the Zezia candidates from Trump and us, around each other, by government. So as it were, for the first time, we are talking about issues, issues that pertain to corruption as well. And other issues that concern Nigeria, the rest of Nigeria. So for me, it is all part of what the political analysts and scientists would tell us that politics itself is conflict. And this conflict is not unexpected. But for the voters, the electorate is the people that are meeting on the campaign grounds. Some of us, however, expected a more tactical engagement. Just like when this frontrunners, the four frontrunners were in the Chatham House, we expected a scenario where the candidates would speak basically on these allegations, some of these allegations to clear the airs to the world, to the global community and them. But that didn't happen. And it was for the simple reason that the Nigerian electorates have not much short to the extent of engaging them on these issues. We'll talk about article gates. You heard about Kayamo filing a suit against article and all of that. All of this for me are mere destructions. The candidates should be looked at from the perspective of the offices they have occupied in the past. They have been all governor at some point, except article who was the vice president for eight years. They have all occupied political offices at some point. What are the antecedents these persons have left, these individuals have left in office? What are their records in terms of treatment of civil servants in their states, in terms of social development, in terms of security, in terms of keeping to their promises and keeping to their words. This should have been the areas we expected the electorates to include them as they go about campaigning. But you know the Nigerian public debate is as good as it were. People, it's more of a noise. People are eager to see crowds, sharing, people sharing the candidates and saying oh you are the best because we are here and we are here basically not saying it but supplying it to get our own share of your luggage. So as it were, you can give this election about 40, 50 percent pass mark in terms of you know personal records as it were over and above what was in the past where it was just you get into the market as you're buying the vegetables from the women, the cameras are you, you don't even say anything. So it's even because the dynamics have changed and it's changed because of these in the race. That is why we're talking about these two parties, the frontliners, there are the two major parties, ABAC and PDP, being official as jogolas it's where we're talking about you know corruptions and exposing them both and all of that. So and for me, whether those allegations like some people are saying is substantiated or not, Nigeria should be asking questions about those allegations because for me it's also more of who's it's also more of it's also good they are telling us about who they were, who have been in the past, things that were not known about them. So Nigeria has to engage them on these issues and robustly bring them to table within the next three weeks or so before the presidential election. So would that end up electing a president who will be so distracted by his past? That is my solution Mr Wangu. Yeah, did you have at you, what's your take? I think the issues raised in the allegations against the APC presidential candidate after PDP are serious fundamental issues that puts both of them in backlight if Nigeria were to be a same country. I once said that this kind of my campaign which is now at its peak, I think it is a strategy for the candidates to demarcate their or disqualify their opponent. But if you look at Nigeria's political trend, we have vote buying. Vote buying may not fly if CBN insists on the Naira design. Now if you look at the Nigerian political trend again, we have series of issues, vote buying, concrete breaking of protections, which has been badly addressed by the DBASC system. So the question now comes to the man of the politicians, what can we do to demarcate our opponent, to disqualify our opponent, to make our opponent look bad? Because if we don't have enough money to drive the electorate, then we need to work on their mindset to make them see our opponent as not credible. And that is why you can see that like never before, Kanomnai campaign close to the election now it's at its peak. The politicians have adopted this strategy. Every election comes with its own strategy based on the instrument that is available to the politicians. But I think that using Kanomnai campaign will not be of benefit to either of the political parties based on the mindset of the electorate that we are. Largely Nigerians are not used anymore by all these allegations because some of them have been repeated over time. And if you look at the candidates themselves, the allegations that have been put forward has always lived with them for decades or more. If you talk about name issue, if you talk about drug issue, certificate issue, corruption, these are non-name issues. So Nigerians have been used to lead. When things namely happen, when something is changed, it is normal to expect clamor from Nigerians. Like when the earthmen and bandits, when the first started ravaging communities and killing people, they were clamor from Nigerians. Everybody was care, everybody was a people. Now, even if they hear that bandits overrun the community, nobody is talking because the psychology of the people have been configured to live with it. So the psychology of Nigerians have been configured to live with all these allegations the year it every time, the city every time. And that's why you see that as one would have expected in thinner climes, there is no much protest from the public. So even if you come out today and say Sososo candidate has stolen trillions, Sososo candidate has Nigeria in his pocket, you won't get much reaction from Nigeria. That shows that it has become like a political culture. It is something that people expect from here and they are not reacting the way they should be. But if even to move to the specifics, I think the APC camp of progressive hundreds can fire in the first bullet. It is a strategy by his campaign council in the sense that before you fire a bullet, it would have been better to look at the quality of your candidate, to look at the antecedent of your candidate and think this action that I'm about to take is it going to be favorable to my candidate? But when your candidate has a lot of baggage issues and at the end of the day you are firing a bullet, why 61 who said who lives in a glass house not choose to. So the APC to have told the first tone, of course, and they have a candidate that has a lot of baggage in the city, they should naturally expect that the PDP is going to respond in the form measure which the PDP has done. But what performance of it will it influence the outcome of election? I don't think so. Why? Because we have citizens that are we have a lot of disoriented citizens who might have been configured to think that okay, you can do anything and get in with you. We have citizens who might have been configured with it and so perspective. Somebody stole money and so somebody doesn't have a certificate and so so in that kind of time you won't expect much to come from the economic campaign as we have it now. And if it doesn't work, as we move closer to the election, you should expect some form of new approach, new strategy from the politicians if the economic campaign does not work as expected. All right, but one thing I picked from you know the submissions made by the both of you is that first of all it is expected during elections that you know there'll be back and forth and people throwing shades at each other and of course that it has become more like a political tradition in Nigeria you know for the electorate or the masses to be docile and not ask questions. But then where is the place of accountability? If you go to Sena Climes, the mere fact that you know such an allegation is smeared on your name you would see people resigning, saying they are stepping down, you would see relevant organizations coming out to do proper investigations, you would see political parties withdrawing their candidates. I mean this is what happens in a city, in a nation where things work properly. That brings me back to my question. Where is the place of accountability? None of these allegations can be said to be little. I mean Attiku has been accused of you know between 1999 to 2007 opening a separate account with his then principal from a president, the LP presidential candidate, Labour Party, Peter Albee has been accused of you know dousing some billions of naira to a company owned by his family. You know the owners of hero beer and all that and of course the drug allegation against the Asiwajubo Latinubo of the APC, these are not small accusations. So where is the place of accountability? Are they even supposed to be allowed to still be in this race? Is it even constitutional? Is there a place in the constitution that says if you have such a baggage you are not allowed to divide? This is my question and I'm directing it to you Mr Charles. Thank you very much. Our institutions have become the greatest abattoirs we've had. I listened to the political scientists in the studio. All he stated are very correct as well. The Nigerians have become so views so accustomed it has become their past their passiveness and their dosenity to issues that you bother has become a concern but then you put it back to the institutions. We talked about the Boolean van in 2019 elections. Sinubu distributing money on election day with Boolean vans and legos. Pictures were there, a suit where was filed, a petition was made to EFCC. Why was this matter not investigated four years after? The answer is simple, wicked decisions. Can the EFCC share man break these three presidential candidates to book and set up a special crowd for in particular what happens across the nations of the world where this work will be? By now civil society organizations and civil liberty groups should have been besieging the national headquarters of these parties asking them to withdraw their candidates to draw their candidates and bring fresh candidates or at best be out of the race. But that is not going to happen so like my colleague saint will become so accustomed to it that people will prefer they say okay let's go for the less evil. None of them is right. Somebody was trying to justify why a bitter being of the Liberal Party must have a foreign account. Why it is not a case of corruption for him to have foreign accounts and then because you want some money in Nigeria the fanatomic pictures will frustrate you based on the volume of business it does and all of that. These are all systemic failures. They are all systemic, they are all institutional failures. So the place of accountability is such that lack of accountability is such that as the governors are going out they are not going to declare their assets as they are leaving office they have a mess so much worse as these people that are angry to take over from them are coming in they are also not going to declare their assets and there is nobody in this country who is serious about running election and spending money that has not stolen from the government covers one way or the other. Those who have not stolen are not even liked by the people because they said perhaps a governorship candidate to their boy for instance who is liked, who has been for the masses and you will see some voters who tell you yes that he is good though but he doesn't have money. You ask them where do you expect him to get the money from to spend? When you expect he hasn't stolen from the government work so they expect that you should also use this opportunity you have to steal. So that is why these presidential candidates can move about with these allegations they are turned across this is geopolitical coexistence from the FCT campaigning freely unwillingly. We touch in me when they should have been facing the panels that should be within them. Okay we'll send to our board. Well gentlemen just just a moment we will take a short break and return to deal with other issues for instance all of you have have spoken well about the fact that their delegations are coming but Nigerians according to Deji the mindset of Nigerians has been such that they are used to it. We need to address that because the crux of the matter is they say leaders come from the people and if we are good enough they then we'll have good leaders if we ask the right questions then they will sit up they were talking about accountability it's we that will hold them accountable but where do we start to address these issues those are the things that we will look at when we return from this break stay with us. I think he's there to unbroke or something. We'll go to Deji. Scroll to their names again please. Okay, Omoshola, Deji. And that's Charles Boat, not out. I know. I would have been so confused because like I'm so glad you represent that to you. It has done that a lot to me in in my state there's a place that a lot of people do and once you type in the computer it's turned so out. To you get so and for somebody like me that is not Yes, yeah we're good. For somebody like me that is not used to that type of me, I don't know the reason waiting for this. That's out. I said, how? Is he American? Now then they answer all these kinds of names. See somebody say his name is Tom. When we come back here. Mr. Gotas, your name is Nagota. I said we are the ones that kill ourselves and say what's the meaning of your name. Like it will change your life or something. Nothing. He's superstitious and they believe your name has. There's bush, there's tree, there's winter bottom. There is. There's no name we have not seen. There's even bulaba. He's laughing. Charles not lying. He's not a lie. The computer wrote your name Charles out. I'm sure it has done that to you a lot of times. Oh god. There is this sound. Two. Okay yeah let's go. There's this post on social media where they wrote down or Bula. Bala blue. Bula about seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. You're welcome back. It's still the run up. Even though somebody in one of the campaign councils will not agree or one contestant rather will not even agree that it's an Olympic that people are contesting to go and do but we will still call it a political Olympic that is coming up. In the first place it comes every four years and some people that go there very young come out very old because the stress is so much so it's as stressful as running a hundred meter race in those four years that you're going to be there. So whether we like it or not it takes a lot of strength to be able to govern a people of so much diversity as this Nigeria that we find ourselves. What we were talking about the accusations and counter-accusations that are going on between the left hands of these political or these candidates, the front runners especially, we're talking about the all-progressive congress. Tino Buu is the candidate. Alhagia Tikwa-Bubaka is the one for PDP. We have the one for LP or Labour Party that is PTOB. We also have another one who is also as strong at least stronger than the rest or that we have not mentioned here in so many quarters that is Rabiu Kwankwaso. So everybody's trying to mudsling and make sure that the other one is painted. But in the course of our talking with our guest, Charles O'Too and Omoshola Deji, one thing came up that the people, we are a docile people. Maybe not necessarily gullible but docile. We don't want to act on things that in fact when you hear this person is a thief, he says yes, leave him. He's our own thief. He's our daughter still and all that. But let me come to you Deji. Since you made that point first, the worrisome thing is that if we don't change that mindset that you say Nigerians now have, then we'll keep repeating the same mistakes and being inside this kind of problem that we are finding ourselves. Where do we start from to address this issue of a different mindset that will make our leaders stand on their toes, that will make our people make the right choices and all that. Where do we start to address this problem? I think we can start to address the problem from two perspectives. Number one from the angle of the institution of the state. Number two from the citizen. First from the institution of the state. If somebody has been in a political office and has been the vice president of the federal republic of Nigeria and has left offices 2007 coming up with such allegations against him. Now with pure evidence is a manifestation to the period of institution of the state. We have institutions that are supposed to track and trace. We have institutions that are supposed to oversight so that the allegation is coming out now and some you can say have some one or two element of connection. I don't want to say it should be any. That shows the failure of the institution of the Nigerian state. So when we begin to have good institutions definitely you will know that there are some things you must not do. When you do it definitely the institution will come for you. I think that for somebody to be applying for the job of the president there should be some background check. Where is the TSS in terms of verifying the credentials of these candidates? Where is the security agencies in terms of verifying the antecedents of this candidate? So it shows the failure of the institution. Nigeria institutions are not proactive. You need to push them a kick and start kind of system before they can function. I might think that is not good because you are leaving your responsibility to the average citizen. No. An agency like the ESCC should be able to track and trace where candidate leaves office. If it is in the same time those in power and I immediately they leave office. They begin to track all what they've done in office and begin to see whether there are allegations of corruption. In China it is not people that just come up and accuse. The institution itself track and trace and they find credible evidence against you. Before they pitch you up, you know you are in for a pitch up because you know they won't just pitch you up for the corner. Another thing is the aspect of the citizen. When we begin to have oriented citizens, definitely politicians will be careful of what they do. If you know that you have an ambition there are some things you want to do because you know that the people, the electorate will come for you. But in a situation whereby the citizens are disoriented, they don't count citizens as anything. In fact, there are some citizens that would like to vote for you based on your ability to steal. Because they know that it is when you steal that they can get one or two things from you. So perhaps citizens that they don't even like accountability. For example, I was in the Niger Delta for a research and I happened to meet the A of a top politician in Nigeria and I asked the question that why don't you tell your boss to assist you the speaking for these people? And the head told me that if he views the speaking, he may lose the election. That anytime he comes around the people are satisfied with him distributing rights, giving them one thousand air. So if you have a system, if you have citizens like that who are disoriented, who doesn't vote, it has to account. Definitely you will live your life anyhow because you know that nobody will do to account. So when actions, when there are consequences for action definitely will begin to have a turnaround system. But as long as we have a system where anything goes, definitely we continue to have this kind of situation. Because right now we have to operate the system in Nigeria that it is so easy for any kind of non-entity, any chalata, any street touching to aspire for any of the top officials. Because why? The requirement from the citizen is not high. It is easy for a candidate that has no specific manifesto. There's no specific plan that has lived his life under the bridge, that has lived his life as a talk, as a as anything to aspire for anything. And at the end of the day where I have problem with the Nigerian citizen is that they now begin to cry. Now they have opportunity to choose the power is in their hands to choose who should govern them. If they don't choose why is there at the end of the day they will start complaining. So I think that the suffering over the years would have at least changed the organization of Nigerian citizens a bit to be able to at least look at the credibility of their candidate. If you are taking your child to the school you want to assess the quality of the teachers. You want to look at the school environment. If you want to rent an apartment, you want to look at the facilities available. If you want to select a spouse, you want to look at some qualities. So why on earth would you want to elect a candidate and you are bothered, you are bothered about the antecedent of that candidate. Why is this the one that said what a man should is a read if you give your hopes to somebody that you know there are manifestations of incredibility. There are manifestations of health challenges. There are manifestations of corruption. Don't come back and complain. Just live with it. And if 24 hours is a long time in politics, the ruling for four years or 80 years as the case may be is forever. Not even a long time. It's like forever. If 24 hours is a long time in politics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Charles, interesting things that Deji has said and we're still just wondering because all the time when we talk about the electorate, we talk about a political situation in Nigeria. We talk also about institutions most of the time. And I just wonder, is it that we don't have the institutions? We don't have the laws? Because the laws are there. For instance, if you go to the constitution, section 136 was there about, it talks about the president. And it is clearly stated that if you become president, you cannot hold any other position that you know they could pay you for and all that. Our president has been minister of petroleum since then. Nobody even talks about it, but it's in the law. We also found this problem of certificates last time with the president, the sitting president. We didn't know how that ended, but he's finishing his second tenor. So we just wonder, is it the absence of institutions? No, the institutions are there. The laws governing these institutions are there. Everything is in place in Nigeria. In fact, some people have said we have some of the best laws in the world. So if we must address this issue, we should leave institutions as it were and talk about the individuals. But when we're talking about the individuals, the people of Nigeria, the question like I asked Deji is where do we start? Do we start from school? Do we start from family? Do we start from churches? Do we start from, I don't know, where do we start? How do we go about it? Because it has to change. We can't keep blaming institutions and our laws because the laws are there. The institutions are there. Thank you, Mr. Wangu. Wangu, you were correct that the institutions are there, but the institution is not the physical building. You talk about police as an institution, you're not talking about Lewis Eddard's house as the final arbiter, the seven-story building as the final arbiter of police in the country. You're talking about who is the Inspector General of Police? How professional is he in his conduct? How unpatronizing is he to the political establishments as it were? Where we should put all these blames on first and foremost, even the corruption in these cases, the fact that people defend corrupt individuals is on ethnicity. As an Igbo man, people expect, like I said in plus policies, that I should be okay with whatever a PTOB as a candidate does. Even if his manifesto is not good because he's accepted by everybody, a lot of majority of Nigerians, because he's compared to Atiku and Tinibu, they will say, oh, this one is a Jesus hanging between the two thieves. That is the kind of argument people from the scientists expect to make. So they expect you to not ask a lot of questions, not to scrutinize, to say, oh, there is not alone with him having a foreign account and all of that. That is ethnicity, and that has been the pain of Nigeria as it were today. The President of the Federal Republic, who is the Petroleum Minister? Somebody made a very funny post this morning on Facebook, Mr. Wangu, and I think I should draw your attention to it. He said there are three important queues in this country now, but that one queue is the most important. He said there are queues for PVC, which is the shortest queue now, that the other two queues are the longest. That is the queue for FOE, and the queue for FOE, and then the queue for, they thought it was a queue for Naira notes, that new Naira notes. So I said that among these three queues, the first, which is the PVC queues, which is the shortest, is the most important. And that people would prefer to go and queue for the other ones because they are also part of what makes life thrive. We have forgotten suddenly that Buhari is the Petroleum Minister and he is ordinarily supposed to relinquish that position now that the fewer queues have persisted since December till now. I think this is the longest FOE crisis we're having in this country as an adult of 37-year standing. This is the longest time I have seen that nobody is even talking about the irregularities in the FOE comprise and the President is sitting as the Petroleum Minister and the President combined and the Commander-in-Chief. And as the Commander-in-Chief of the Federal Republic, he has unilaterally extended the tenor of the current intelligence police, Usman Baba, not on the basis or on the strength of his achievements in office or his ex-parties or his inability, his ability to solve the security crisis that is plaguing this country. But because it's a full animal, it is as simple as that. It's the same ethnicity that I'm talking about that is the problem. So before you blame family, before you blame the churches, the mosques, the first thing you blame is ethnicity. The current IGP is his brother. There was a time they talked about, I said it on PlusPolitics a few days ago, that there was a time it was in the news, breaking news that the Commissioner of Police for Canada State Forestry has been deployed to FOE and the CP from FOE was to go to another state. As we speak, Aliyu Garuba, who is a full animal from the same Katrina State and said to be related to the President, is still the Commissioner of Police in FOE. That transfer could not work even when it has, a signal had been sent, the media publicized it. Why? Because there is a full animal in this country that tries to make you look stupid when you tell them that things are not going right. Whether things go right or wrong, they want their people to remain there and man all the important gates. And that is simply the reason why the institutions are not working, Mr Wangu. So until we we get people who are looking at Nigeria as a national entity, not looking at the ethnic origin of their clannishness for their behaviors, who will never have a Nigeria that works, it is as simple as that. There is nothing else to blame. Going into the room to the election, you have white-spreaded security, you still have bandits, banditry, you still have people who belong, behaving people's heads in a season where you're going into an election. You have an eco-50s being attacked and all of this is happening under a supposed inspectorial police. And what he got for all of, the spirit of all of this, was an extension of his tenure by the president because the constitutional sense is as prerogative to, you know, appoint or disappoint the IGP. He had decided to extend his tenure based not on competence, not based on competence, but based on the patronage that he is his fellow Fulani brother. So Mr Wangu, we cannot say we don't know where the problem is coming from. The problem is coming from ethnicity. Like I have said it in this program, I said it the other day on politics today, that people did not, as people expected, I would say, oh that everything we speak to be manifesto is right. I said no, it's not true. He was also vague, like other candidates on security. I said unto you, unto you, I isolate the statistics of the federation and the FCT and treat the peculiarities of the security challenges and know that in the South East, for instance, in a state like Eboi and Imo, the problem is Eboiago, a militia formed by the government of the days in these two APC states to terrorize your positionals. You cannot just say, oh, the problem of the South East is just IPOV. What Eboiago has done and killed in Eboi and Imo is more than all the pockets of crisis that is associated or related to the IPOV. These are areas I expected the four contending, major contenders, fraud liners in this presidential race to sit down and itemize and say, oh, in the South East, we are not just saying we are going to fight IPOV. We are also going to tackle these menace of militia formed by the government of the day for their own political interests to further or further their own politicalness until we address this here, address this here as a people, we are going nowhere. You will keep running around and we will keep saying people who will defend people for corruption, who will defend article because it's their fellow planning brother and it's from their state and it's from their zone, who will keep having Yoruba's who are defending Itinubu, not minding all the allegations against him because it's the fellow Yoruba man and it is his turn according to them. So, once these kind of narratives are pushed aside, and people now begin to ask people to account based on national interest, based on what will be good for everybody, we are going to have this second again coming back again after four years to complain. That is my submission. All right, Mr. Deji, let me direct the same question to you, but then let me put it this way. Is it strong systems that we need or strong men to direct the systems? Because they are intertwined, they work hand in hand, and you know, while Nyangu was speaking earlier, he mentioned how that, you know, asking whether we should blame the family. Is it the educational system? Who should be held accountable? You know, it still boils down to the question of accountability. Mr. Charles has gone on to mention a lot of allegations that have been thrown in the past, some of which are playing out now. There are no longer allegations, we are seeing it happening before our very eyes, where a very good example is the president being the president and still being the Minister of Petroleum. Who is holding who accountable? And how do we begin to nip this issue in the board? Well, I think we need strong institutions. Instead of strong men, because the institutional state remains. So long as there is no rupture, the Nigerian states will remain for as long as possible. But if you have a strong man, what happens if the man dies? So the state remains for as long as possible. In the next 100 years, the Nigerian states, as high probability of remaining, we would have definitely gone. All of us, that's certain. So if I'm a strong man, manning the institution, for example, what's going to happen if I'm gone? But if we have a system whereby you cannot manoeuvre your way wrongly, you cannot break the system, you cannot play the system, then we begin to have people that will live according to the dictates of the law. That is what I believe, because man likes to be free. It is in the nature of man to be free. By man, in this case, I mean human beings. Human beings cherish freedom. If a man doesn't have money, and he sees you with so much money, he naturally likes to be free to take your money. A man likes to walk at any time, regardless of if you are anything. So if you have something that another person doesn't have, the person has stronger power, stronger might, or weapon, we naturally like to take it. But if there are strong institutions, and you know that once you commit, you must pay. Once you commit an offence, you must pay for it. Definitely, people will begin to live their life credibly. So if we are strong men, strong men is just the person. And at the end of the day, the institution, we go the way of the strong man, based on his ideology, based on his philosophy, his outlook. Thirdly, no institution can go beyond the vision, the initiative of his leader, the initiative of the number one person. Nigeria cannot go beyond the knowledge of warrior at the moment. Because even if you go to him, and you say, oh, Mr. President, this week, he has the prerogative to either accept or decline. And so long as he has that prerogative, he will use it for or against it, as the case may be, or as his own wishes. So I think that we have been strong institutions. For example, if Nigeria were to be the United States during the election of Donald Trump and Trump hiding, it would have been easy for a president like Donald Trump in Nigeria to command the armed forces to run to an undue. In Nigeria, we have a command and control system. If a policeman arrests you, the policeman doesn't know the law. He will walk based on what his boss has said. If a military man, if the boss of a military man says shoot, the military man, that's so that after a fight, we shoot you best before thinking of the law. Because at that point in time, the boss of his boss is the law. So such a system will just make life short, nasty and brutal. So that is a system whereby man will come and go and we leave the way he so places, we run the instrument of state, the ways we give, we have to stop and fight for the institution. Definitely, the president appoints a lot of security agencies for one ethnic group. The writers of the Nigerian Constitution did not foresee that somebody would become a president and decide to appoint the head of security agencies from just one ethnic group after he is appointed. Else they would have made it, they would have institutionalized it. In the Constitution, that if you are to become a president, you must appoint the head of security agencies from different ethnic groups. Just like if it had not been in the Constitution that you must appoint ministers from particular states of immigration. Maybe we have a system now whereby maybe 10 ministers will come from Castina, the president of the state, where the DSS was to recruit, still talking about the effectiveness of the institution. When the DSS was to recruit at some point in time, we have this influx of people from a particular section of the country and some sections were being denied. When the federal government was to acquire a loan at some point and enumerate how those would be spent, it remarkably favours a section of the country than the other. That shows that if we have strong men, definitely in a country that ethnicity, religion, regionalization plays a major role. Definitely we want them forward to open these strong institutions that will bring you to account no matter who's bad. Even if you believe in ethnicism, even if you believe in epicentrism, even if you believe in orientalism, you cannot walk beyond what is stipulated. And also, to go beyond it, you know you have to pay for it, you have to have such a debt. All right, Shola. We will move forward as a country. Thank you very much, Shola. Maybe this is a case of the egg and the chicken which one came first, because this argument will go back and forth all the time. But I would like to thank you gentlemen for giving us your thoughts, especially now that we know that there are three queues, PVC queue, fuel queue, and I jotted it down. First, Cassidy's queue. So we should make sure that the first one, which is the shortest one, becomes the longest one, because it's the most important one. Thank you gentlemen for coming on the show. Thank you for having me too. Good to have you here as always. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Okay, we will take a break now because we'll bring you the news when we return. We finish on these issues and more that we have on our list as it were. Stay with us. You're welcome back. It's still the run-off and we're just trying to wrap up and give some announcements as it were, if that's what we'll call it, and just go back to what we're saying today. Our topic of discussion was really all the, how do we call it in Nigeria and in Iran, going on in the political space between parties, especially the leading political parties, and we're talking about institutions and the individuals, and one of the guests was saying that we need institutions and not individuals, and I'm just wondering who makes the institution to work? Because if the laws are there, I'm not even talking about the buildings, like one of them said, but the laws are there, everything that should guide that institution, they are all there, but the people who are in charge, or even the ones who are following, are not ready to stick to them. So how will the institution work when the people do not want it to work? So anyway, like I said, maybe it's the case of the egg and the chicken which all came first. I don't know how that argument will be, but do you buy the fact that it has to be institutions? I hope that we get to the point. He was the person making that point, and I can feel where he's coming from, you know, how that what we need are strong institutions and not strong individuals, because why you might want to argue that it is still individuals who work in these institutions, but then if you strengthen the institution by way of constitution, by way of rules and regulations, by way of patterns of doing things, and then the individuals in these institutions are supposed to follow through. It's not rocket science. If people just do the right thing, but then we have people, we have a society that has collapsed so much that nobody wants to be held accountable, because when you say people should just follow, and who doesn't follow, what happens to the person? Nobody's asking questions. Because now let me give you an instance. It is a good thing to do, to keep to time, for instance, and then you sit, you have a meeting, and then you tell yourself that the meeting is supposed to be at two o'clock. We just put it there so that we know that people will come at four. I mean, who are you telling? Exactly, that is a very typical example. I mean, they say it's Nigerian time. Who created Nigerian time? So when you talk about institutions, it's like, okay, time. Time waits for no one. It's there. It's constant. It's moving. Whether you like it or not, it's moving. You are the one to make it work, and you just say, let's buy a better watch or a better clock, or I don't know what it is. Even if you're being big bang, you will still not keep to time if you don't want to keep to time. Of course. That's what is happening in Nigeria. So we need to change the mindset of the people. And talking about mindset, we just heard this morning that the Balogu market burned. And that is not really my problem, even though my heart goes to the people who have lost their goods and all that. It's almost like a yearly ritual now. But what came to my mind when I heard about the fire incident was the fact that Nigerians don't even want to give room for fire service trucks to move. So if you go to Balogu market, I'm very sure that you will not find a space that the fire trucks will move to fight the fire if it happens. Apart from the traffic on the road, the stalls are so packed together, you can barely move. You can't move. The human traffic alone. I'm not talking about vehicles. Human traffic. I mean, if I ever have to go to Balogu market, I would have sat down for hours and motivate myself. Do you understand? Like, give myself enough reason I should be there. It's crazy. And then when you have situations like this and the fire comes, how do you even, it will engulf everybody because everybody is close together? We're just lucky that, you know, sometimes these things happen and the casualties we find, sometimes we don't find human casualties, but sometimes we do. But if the way we build our houses, our own attitude towards safety and all that is taken into consideration, I think it's just God that is keeping us in this country. And then we were glad the other day when we heard that the president set up a committee to look into the fuel issue, to make sure that the distribution is going on smoothly and there's no longer scarcity. So far, we haven't felt the impact. I hope the Minister for Petroleum and then the chairman of this committee, the same person and the president would do something really, really urgently to make sure that this fuel crisis is solved. Otherwise, well, bottom line is, they say there are three queues now, PVC, Naira nodes and fuel queues. And let's talk about the new Naira nodes. The central bank of Naira said there is no going back. Yeah, even the president said so. Yeah, the January 30 deadline still stands. The ATM machines are still dispensing old nodes. There are almost the ratio of the new Naira nodes to the old Naira nodes in the market and now there is, you can't compare. What's of all is that, even if they dispense the new nodes, no ATM is dispensing 200 Naira nodes. And 200 Naira is like the focal point when it comes to giving change. You enter a vehicle, you need change and 200 Naira would be a part of it. You buy something and 200 Naira is a part. We don't find 200 Naira anywhere. I'm really hoping that, how do they intend to do it? I'm really hoping that they have another plan of their sleeves because even when you go to the counter to withdraw money, they still give you the old Naira nodes. You go to the ATM machines, they still give you the old Naira nodes. POS, operatives, complain of the same thing when they go to withdraw, when they go to, yeah, withdraw, they still get the old Naira nodes. Now that they have said that there are sanctions from the CBN to all the banks, if they don't dispense new Naira nodes, a lot of banks have shot down their ATMs. They say they don't have the sufficient Naira nodes, new Naira nodes to put in their ATMs. So we will be the ones to suffer now. And we have just four days left, or four days, yes. Because on the 29th, a lot of people will stop collecting. Because right now, we heard the other story that one family refused to collect bride price that was paid in old Naira nodes. So that was like last week. And you have companies and institutions and marketers telling you that in this shop, we don't collect old Naira nodes. How? How? Well, how would you even blame them? Because when they collect it, can they, do they even have the time to go to the bank and deposit it? Do they, I don't, I mean, the problems are many, but we're hoping that we are going to find a solution to our problems one day. PVC collection will also end on the 30th and do your best to make sure that you collect it. We secured us to the people, the governors. On the 29th, PVC collections. Oh, okay. We've secured us to the governors and all the relevant people who said that, who gave out some days for the collection of PVC. We hope that that will also improve it. Thank you for being a part of our show today. My name is Nyam Gul Agadji. Let's do it again tomorrow. And my name is Uche Chuku Honored. Go get your PVC.